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Old February 24th, 2019, 04:33 PM   #1
Uniquemind
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Default Public or private?

I’ve been wondering about this for a while and can’t decide and want input.


Are privately held businesses considered public or private, even though their interactions of selling a good or service forced public interaction?


My mind from a legal perspective of the west’s USA law at least, says private. But I’m unsure.

Thoughts?

Sidenotes: I was thinking about the whole bakery denies making a specific custom cake with a same-sex theme (decor, or writing) violating religious rights thing, but wanted to apply the thought to wider industries beyond bakeries.

Last edited by Uniquemind; February 25th, 2019 at 12:07 AM.
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Old February 24th, 2019, 04:58 PM   #2
mattsmith48
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Default Re: Public or private?

Public means it is run and funded by a form of government.

If an individual or a group of people own the business it is considered private.

Anyone who owns a business is subject to local laws and regulations including anti-discrimination laws.

I always said you are allowed to believe what ever bullshit you want as long it doesn't affect anyone else life. If you believe that gay people shouldn't get married because that's what Jesus would want its your choice, but don't pick a job in the marriage industry.

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There is no such thing as liberal or conservative media, the only thing the media cares about is either money or the truth.
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Old February 24th, 2019, 06:10 PM   #3
ShineintheDark
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Default Re: Public or private?

A company is considered public if it's owned by investors (put on the stock market and so anyone may invest and therefore 'own' a share) whilst a company is private if it's run by a single person of group (only they can ever 'own' a share). For example, Twitter is a public company because it's stock is on the stock market and I can go and buy a share tomorrow if I wished. Versace is a private company because only Santo and Donatella Versace as well as any children held any actual stock in the company and refused to put it on the stock market. It's been bought out by another company now so may become a subsidiary that is subsequently public.

Last edited by ShineintheDark; February 24th, 2019 at 06:17 PM.
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Old March 25th, 2019, 04:25 PM   #4
Snowfox
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Default Re: Public or private?

There also exists companies that serve only customers who are owners of said company.
Pubs can become private clubs etc.
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Old March 25th, 2019, 10:34 PM   #5
Karkat
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Default Re: Public or private?

TL;DR: Is it a matter of legality or ethics? It literally does not matter what type of business you have if a court of law can prove you guilty. Also the true answer to whether a business is private or not, and what that entails is real fuckin complicated.

There are a shit ton of nuances in both types of businesses, and it gets really complicated.

The following is based on my knowledge of things, knowing a fair amount about legal processes and how they work, and knowing what I do about businesses from starting... one... I don't even remember what kind of business it was, this was a bajillion years ago ok

So take it with a grain of salt

Some businesses are entirely privately owned, but can have unlimited liability (If you get sued, they can take you as a person for all you're worth)

Some businesses have a separate legal entity, and are owned in part by shareholders, while company operations are ran by an appointed group of people. This type of business has limited liability. (If the company gets sued, it is unlikely to affect the individual as much.) This is what's known as a corporation- it's an incorporated business.

Some businesses are privately owned, but have limited liability.

Some businesses are ran as a cooperative, which means they are ran as a group, but not as shareholders, so they have more equal say, and mutual benefit. These can be incorporated or unincorporated.

Now, how does this affect the repercussions of the legality of certain actions? It depends on a few things.

-Is it actually illegal?
-In regards to an individual, can they prove their case in a court of law?

Which are the direct repercussions

And, of course, the indirect:

-Who is the demographic this business is catering to? Will this issue cause a decrease in popularity and therefore sales?
-Will this business receive negative publicity on a large scale?

Let's go down the list.

-Is it illegal? If yes, there will be a criminal investigation if enough evidence is gathered to put out a warrant, and start an investigation. If there is conclusive evidence upon investigation, it will go to court, and whatever district the business was violating will go to court against the offending business. This could lead to a fine, or, if the criminal actions can be placed directly on an individual or a few, they could even become incarcerated.

-Can an individual prove their case in a court of law? This is what is known as a lawsuit/litigation, which has two possible outcomes as long as the case doesn't get thrown out of court.
-settlement: The business cuts a deal with the individual to potentially prevent further legal repercussions. However, the individual can say no.
-judgment: This is when a court of law awards the case on the individual's (plaintiff's) behalf.

I'm not going to go into the technicalities and details of how that works, because that would take forever lmao

If the company is unlimited liability, and someone sues you and wins? Depending on the company's assets, you as the individual could actually have your assets repossessed to pay off the debt.

If the company is limited liability, I don't exactly remember how it works, but from my understanding, it's a lot less severe, though your wages could be garnished, just like any other debt that can't be collected.

I won't go into the indirect shit because that's kinda off topic

But how does this pertain to whether or not a company is public or private?

That depends.

-If you are selling goods or services to the general public, in a sense, the business is public, even if privately owned.
-If you require membership to get access to goods or services, in a sense, the business is private, because it is exclusive to a select group of people.

However, if you are breaking the law or discriminating against an individual or group, and it can be proven, it literally does not fucking matter.

Being 'privately owned' doesn't save you from legal repercussions. If anything, it makes said repercussions worse on a typical basis. BUT, like with literally any case in a court of law, the court has to decide that the defendant is guilty, and make final judgment against that individual or business.

Like, it's no different from an individual breaking laws on their own.

Are illicit drugs illegal? Yes. If an individual does them behind closed doors and doesn't get caught, it is still illegal. If they do get caught, and a court makes the judgment that the individual is guilty, they will face criminal charges. It's no different for a business, regardless of who owns it, or what type of business it is.

So basically, it all comes down to whether or not the issue is of legality or just ethics.


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Old March 25th, 2019, 11:00 PM   #6
PlasmaHam
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Default Re: Public or private?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
Public means it is run and funded by a form of government.
Agreed. And private is ran by non-government entities.
Quote:
Anyone who owns a business is subject to local laws and regulations including anti-discrimination laws.

I always said you are allowed to believe what ever bullshit you want as long it doesn't affect anyone else life. If you believe that gay people shouldn't get married because that's what Jesus would want its your choice, but don't pick a job in the marriage industry.
I think you are missing the point here. Many of those anti-discrimation laws refer specifically to public places, and then people make the argument that private businesses are "public" places and thus fall under them. I've believe you've even argued that before, though I could be wrong.

Here's my opinion on the matter. Private companies should have no legal obligation to serve anyone. If an individual or company feels a moral reason not to serve anyone, so be it. We are a free-market economy, you have plenty of other options. People like to refer to Jim Crow as the necessity for anti-discrimation laws, but that fails the test when you recall that segregation was legally enforced, not simply the whims of business owners. Overall the real tragedy is the government forcing people to violate their conscious just so others won't be slightly inconvenienced. And no, this isn't a hating gay people issue. This is an issue of people being asked to make something for or support something that they feel is morally wrong. If a straight man asked one of these refusing bakeries for a gay wedding cake for his gay friend's wedding, do you seriously think they'll automatically make it because a straight guy asked?

Mattsmith, using your line of reasoning, should those Google employees who refused to work with the US military on technology due to moral issues be fired? After all, if they can't service a customer due to moral issues then they ought to find a new job in a different field. Or would that only apply if we are talking about them refusing to work with some military that is majority non-white, because then it would automatically be racist.

Last edited by PlasmaHam; March 26th, 2019 at 11:35 AM.
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Old March 26th, 2019, 12:03 PM   #7
mattsmith48
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Default Re: Public or private?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaHam View Post
Agreed. And private is ran by non-government entities.

I think you are missing the point here. Many of those anti-discrimation laws refer specifically to public places, and then people make the argument that private businesses are "public" places and thus fall under them. I've believe you've even argued that before, though I could be wrong.

Here's my opinion on the matter. Private companies should have no legal obligation to serve anyone. If an individual or company feels a moral reason not to serve anyone, so be it. We are a free-market economy, you have plenty of other options. People like to refer to Jim Crow as the necessity for anti-discrimation laws, but that fails the test when you recall that segregation was legally enforced, not simply the whims of business owners. Overall the real tragedy is the government forcing people to violate their conscious just so others won't be slightly inconvenienced. And no, this isn't a hating gay people issue. This is an issue of people being asked to make something for or support something that they feel is morally wrong. If a straight man asked one of these refusing bakeries for a gay wedding cake for his gay friend's wedding, do you seriously think they'll automatically make it because a straight guy asked?
A free-market economy is the concept of supply and demand being the only factor in determining the price of products and services. A free market economy doesn't allow for business owners to openly discriminate against their customers. If you allow for these assholes to refuse to serve gay people, because that's what Jesus would want, it lowers the demand so in a free market bakeries who do serve them can charge a higher price.

Enforcing anti-discrimination laws is not a tragedy or the government forcing people to violate their conscious, no one forced them to open a bakery or to work there, they voluntarily signed up to do a job knowing that if they were to make wedding cakes sometimes they would have to make one for a gay couple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaHam View Post
Mattsmith, using your line of reasoning, should those Google employees who refused to work with the US military on technology due to moral issues be fired? After all, if they can't service a customer due to moral issues then they ought to find a new job in a different field?
If its part of their job, yes. They voluntarily signed up to do a job and if they refuse to do it they should be fired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsmith48
There is no such thing as liberal or conservative media, the only thing the media cares about is either money or the truth.
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