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Old February 18th, 2019, 03:07 AM   #1
mattsmith48
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Default Why is Criticising Israel so Taboo?

A subject that as been in the news lately. When someone does something wrong they should be criticised for it no matter who they are. Israel is run by a crazy right-wing government guilty of war crimes and many human rights violation. That's just stating a fact, its just pointing out that illegally occupying territory and killing civilians is wrong, it as nothing to do with Jewish people, just like if I criticise Saudi Arabia for killing a journalist with a bone saw and helping the US starting a coup Venezuela as nothing to do with Muslim people or Islam.

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Old February 18th, 2019, 04:43 AM   #2
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Default Re: Why is Criticising Israel so Taboo?

It's not so taboo here.

*Mars was here*
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Old February 18th, 2019, 07:40 AM   #3
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Default Re: Why is Criticising Israel so Taboo?

This is a major issue in Western democracies: treating legitimate criticism of the Israeli government as some grandiose attack on the very existence of Israel or even Jews themselves. Saudi Arabia does not stand in for the entirety of Islam, the Vatican does not stand in for the entirety of Catholicism and so why does Israel suddenly stand in for all of Judaism?
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Old February 18th, 2019, 09:50 AM   #4
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Default Re: Why is Criticising Israel so Taboo?

Are they facts?
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Old February 18th, 2019, 12:19 PM   #5
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Default Re: Why is Criticising Israel so Taboo?

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This is a major issue in Western democracies: treating legitimate criticism of the Israeli government as some grandiose attack on the very existence of Israel or even Jews themselves. Saudi Arabia does not stand in for the entirety of Islam, the Vatican does not stand in for the entirety of Catholicism and so why does Israel suddenly stand in for all of Judaism?
Saudi Arabia is a good example because you are not allowed to criticise them, but that's because they bribe Western Countries with oil. When the Canadian government went into a Twitter fight with them when they jailed female activist last year, it was a big story, but no one called Chrystia Freeland or Justin Trudeau Islamophobe.

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Are they facts?
Yup

https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/06/04/...upation-abuses

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Old February 18th, 2019, 01:07 PM   #6
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Default Re: Why is Criticising Israel so Taboo?

Im not a fan of Israel. Personally I think we should either help both Israel and Palestine or neither of them. But I think worldwide, antisemitism is a far more sensitive issue. There are only around 15 million Jews in the entire world and around half live in Israel, so I think it’s easier to say that an attack on Israel is an attack on Jews, no matter how wrong that may be

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Old February 18th, 2019, 01:26 PM   #7
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Default Re: Why is Criticising Israel so Taboo?

People in the West have a fear of being seen as anti-Semitic because of the West's long history with anti-Semitism. There's such a strong taboo against anti-Semitism that it bleeds into places where it shouldn't be. The Israeli government also supports this by deliberately conflating themselves with all Jews, as if to criticize the Israeli government is to criticize Jews in general, etc. If Saudi Arabia were the only Muslim ethno-religious state, a similar thing might happen. It's not, so the conflation can't really occur.

That's just my explanation of why it's taboo. Not that it should be. Obviously criticizing Israel is not the same as being an anti-Semite and there are many valid reasons to criticize Israel and the Israeli government, as you pointed out.

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Old February 18th, 2019, 04:07 PM   #8
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Default Re: Why is Criticising Israel so Taboo?

Things would be different if Iran and Saudi Arabia didn't install and fund two terrorist organizations in Gaza and the West Bank. That said, Israel has gone too far in their effort to secure their borders, and are systematically encroaching on Palestinian land. Additionally, Egypt and Jordan are as complicit as Israel in their suffering.

Israel was founded as a state for the Jews after Germany nearly exterminated all of Europe's Jewish population. If there was any justice in the world, half of Germany should have been allocated to the surviving Jews.
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Old February 18th, 2019, 06:17 PM   #9
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Things would be different if Iran and Saudi Arabia didn't install and fund two terrorist organizations in Gaza and the West Bank. That said, Israel has gone too far in their effort to secure their borders, and are systematically encroaching on Palestinian land. Additionally, Egypt and Jordan are as complicit as Israel in their suffering.
Saudi Arabia does that everywhere, the two things they are mostly known for is oil and funding terrorist organisations. The reason they do it in this case is that Saudi Arabia like many Muslim countries do not recognise Israel. The thing is no western countries recognise Palestine as an independent state. So if they don't get that support from Saudi Arabia, who knows what Israel would do to the Palestinians.

This back and forth will continue until the day the Western world and the Middle East agree to recognise both states as independent and define the borders between the two.

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Israel was founded as a state for the Jews after Germany nearly exterminated all of Europe's Jewish population. If there was any justice in the world, half of Germany should have been allocated to the surviving Jews.
Instead they gave that half to Syran Refugees.

Like I said earlier it as nothing to do with Jewish people or what they went through, it is about criticising a government for doing something wrong.

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Old February 18th, 2019, 06:21 PM   #10
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Like I said earlier it as nothing to do with Jewish people or what they went through, it is about criticising a government for doing something wrong.
I don't think you can separate the two.
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Old February 18th, 2019, 06:23 PM   #11
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I keep hearing this trope that people who criticize Israel are accused of being antisemetic, but in reality, I'm only aware of that happening once. It was Larry Sumner, then president of Harvard Univ and it was one of the reasons he was fired from that position. And he didn't even really say that, though it was easy to twist it into that.

Other than that, I've never heard that accusation made, only the claim that it's made.

I think part of the problem is people often refer to the Jews when criticising Israel, rather than criticising Israeli's.

And from what I've heard, just of the strongest criticism of Israel comes from Jewish people, who are mostly left of center.

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Im not a fan of Israel. Personally I think we should either help both Israel and Palestine or neither of them.
We do help them both. If by 'we,' you mean the US government.

Posts merged. Use the edit button next time. ~Mars

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Old February 18th, 2019, 06:27 PM   #12
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I don't think you can separate the two.
Having them live together peacefully within a single state is even less likely.

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Old February 18th, 2019, 06:28 PM   #13
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Default Re: Why is Criticising Israel so Taboo?

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We do help them both. If by 'we,' you mean the US government.
Officially we don’t recognize Palestine as a state, maybe theirs some unofficial stuff going on, or maybe “help” wasn’t the most accurate word I could have used but regardless, we definitely favor Israel, especially the current administration.

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Old February 18th, 2019, 06:33 PM   #14
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Default Re: Why is Criticising Israel so Taboo?

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Officially we don’t recognize Palestine as a state, maybe theirs some unofficial stuff going on, or maybe “help” wasn’t the most accurate word I could have used but regardless, we definitely favor Israel, especially the current administration.
Are you sure we don't recognize Palestine as a state? I thought we did.
But we do give financial assistance to both, more to Israel though.

Yeah, this admin def favors Israel. The last one, over 8 years, didn't. I'm not saying he was anti-Israel, but he def didn't favor them.
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Old February 18th, 2019, 06:36 PM   #15
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Are you sure we don't recognize Palestine as a state? I thought we did.
But we do give financial assistance to both, more to Israel though.

Yeah, this admin def favors Israel. The last one, over 8 years, didn't. I'm not saying he was anti-Israel, but he def didn't favor them.
As far as what I’ve found, We don’t recognize them, but I think technically we also don’t recognize Taiwan as its own thing so who know

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Old February 18th, 2019, 06:40 PM   #16
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Are you sure we don't recognize Palestine as a state? I thought we did.
But we do give financial assistance to both, more to Israel though.

Yeah, this admin def favors Israel. The last one, over 8 years, didn't. I'm not saying he was anti-Israel, but he def didn't favor them.
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As far as what I’ve found, We don’t recognize them, but I think technically we also don’t recognize Taiwan as its own thing so who know
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...e_of_Palestine

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Palestine is not recognized as a state by Israel, the United States, Switzerland, Canada, Japan, South Korea, Mexico, Australia, New Zealand, and most of the European Union...

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There is no such thing as liberal or conservative media, the only thing the media cares about is either money or the truth.
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Old February 18th, 2019, 06:42 PM   #17
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Well there ya go lol

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Old February 18th, 2019, 06:42 PM   #18
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Default Re: Why is Criticising Israel so Taboo?

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Having them live together peacefully within a single state is even less likely.
What I meant is that you can't so easily separate criticism of the Israeli government and criticism of the Jewish people given the history of Israel's founding. At least not in reality.
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Old February 18th, 2019, 06:49 PM   #19
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Default Re: Why is Criticising Israel so Taboo?

When it comes to politically contested states such as Taiwan, Palestine, Kosovo etc most states opt for the neutral approach of offering support, aid and trade but neither recognise nor deny the existence or sovereignty of the state.

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What I meant is that you can't so easily separate criticism of the Israeli government and criticism of the Jewish people given the history of Israel's founding. At least not in reality.
Benjamin Netanyahu is a far-right populist who capitalises on the deepest forms of nationalism and factionalism at the expense of millions of Palestinians to not only sustain himself in the top position but also overstep internationally recognised boundaries. The 2018 decision by the Knesset to declare Israel a 'Jewish state' will inevitably lead to non-Jews being a lower status of citizen that is treated with less preference than Jews, whether they are born citizens or not, and so is in essence similar to Apartheid legislation. The blatant self-preservation of the Israeli government is leading to them encroaching on the rights of their fellow, more Orthodox Jewish bretherin to force them into national service that their beliefs strictly forbid, thereby coming into conflict with the very idea of representing and defending the rights and freedoms of Jews.

There, major criticisms of the Israeli regime without in any way blaming Jews as a whole.
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Old February 18th, 2019, 06:52 PM   #20
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Default Re: Why is Criticising Israel so Taboo?

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From what I just read, Palestine is considered a 'sovereign state,' but not a country.
About 1/3 of the countries in the UN don't recognize it as a country formally, but do recognize it's sovereignity.

I think the distinction is nebulous.
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