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Old April 6th, 2020, 07:20 AM   #1
Uniquemind
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Default Uniquemind vs Snowfox

So new thread because this debate has cropped up in another thread.


Snowfox has proposed that factual statements can be racist.


I said no they can’t, unless they’re ad hominem statements with no merit other than being mean.


Who is right and why, let’s begin the discussion or debate whichever it turns into.
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Old April 6th, 2020, 08:07 AM   #2
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Default Re: Uniquemind vs Snowfox

I take the stance that a fact cannot be racist. A fact is just a piece of true information with no bias. For example, it is a fact that blacks commit the most murders in the US. It's just a fact, not me or anyone else that says this being racist. I can see where the confusion comes in, but facts are fact and nothing else

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Old April 6th, 2020, 10:15 AM   #3
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Default Re: Uniquemind vs Snowfox

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I take the stance that a fact cannot be racist. A fact is just a piece of true information with no bias. For example, it is a fact that blacks commit the most murders in the US. It's just a fact, not me or anyone else that says this being racist. I can see where the confusion comes in, but facts are fact and nothing else
In EU facts are dangerous to say. You end up in prison for saying publicly things that are facts and not official truth.
Same is in USA certain facts are officially hatespeech and since 99,99% of people on this forum are communists you should share same opinion.

If you are not from far left you are far right. Thats official truth and it doesnt change.
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Old April 6th, 2020, 10:31 AM   #4
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Default Re: Uniquemind vs Snowfox

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In EU facts are dangerous to say. You end up in prison for saying publicly things that are facts and not official truth.
Same is in USA certain facts are officially hatespeech and since 99,99% of people on this forum are communists you should share same opinion.

If you are not from far left you are far right. Thats official truth and it doesnt change.
I will agree with a lot of this information. But there are a huge amount of conservatives on this site, including myself. There are also a lot of liberals, some of them on both sides can get pretty feisty. But, this post is not related to the point of the original post, with you saying facts can be racist, so I don't quite understand the point of it

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Old April 6th, 2020, 10:55 AM   #5
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Default Re: Uniquemind vs Snowfox

Just the individual interpretation of facts and the presentation of it can be perceived as racist or discriminatory. And imo that's it.





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Old April 6th, 2020, 11:24 AM   #6
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I will agree with a lot of this information. But there are a huge amount of conservatives on this site, including myself. There are also a lot of liberals, some of them on both sides can get pretty feisty. But, this post is not related to the point of the original post, with you saying facts can be racist, so I don't quite understand the point of it
Point is that if certain fact doesnt correlate positively with leftist agenda it becomes racist hatespeech.
Truth has no value at all. If there is conflict between reality and ideology then Ideology wins 100 times out of 100.

In europe this has gone so far that police force is told to not to investigate muslims and their terrorist attacks but they focus all their power to hunt down anyone who criticizes Islam.
Terrorist attacks get rarely even reported in news since officially they do not exist and what I would say is terrorist attack is "multicultural event"
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Old April 6th, 2020, 01:54 PM   #7
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Default Re: Uniquemind vs Snowfox

So if I understand this correctly, "facts can be racist" means that if a fact seems to support racist ideas or conclusions, the fact itself is racist and must be treated as an untruth.

Example:

1. X race commits more crime. Statistics show this to be true.
2. That's racist, therefore we must ignore this fact and pretend that it cannot be true.

I think the issue is more of what is done with such a fact (i.e. the conclusions that are drawn). It may be a fact that a certain race commits more crime per capita, but that itself isn't racist (provided that statistics are shown to be sound). The conclusion that they commit more crime because of their race is racist. That is, of course, something that isn't supported with facts.

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Old April 6th, 2020, 02:14 PM   #8
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So if I understand this correctly, "facts can be racist" means that if a fact seems to support racist ideas or conclusions, the fact itself is racist and must be treated as an untruth.

Example:

1. X race commits more crime. Statistics show this to be true.
2. That's racist, therefore we must ignore this fact and pretend that it cannot be true.

I think the issue is more of what is done with such a fact (i.e. the conclusions that are drawn). It may be a fact that a certain race commits more crime per capita, but that itself isn't racist (provided that statistics are shown to be sound). The conclusion that they commit more crime because of their race is racist. That is, of course, something that isn't supported with facts.
If you think that way it shows that you are nazi scum.
Liberal way to think is that if race x commits more crime its either untrue regardless of evidence or its good thing and calling such acts as crimes is racist in itself.
So if race X is more prone to murder and race X is not caucasian then murder is not crime when done by race X. Simple isnt it.
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Old April 7th, 2020, 08:35 AM   #9
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Default Re: Uniquemind vs Snowfox

You learn quite fast that Snowfox isn't having a good faith discussion and to pretty much to ignore what he's contributing.
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Old April 7th, 2020, 02:35 PM   #10
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I am showing you your own bullshit that has been going on and on and on here for years now. I judge you by your own rules.
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Old April 8th, 2020, 08:35 AM   #11
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Default Re: Uniquemind vs Snowfox

It is true that in some areas, especially in Europe, there are on "race" because it is politcally incorrect and forbidden. And everyone who would try to do this would be called a racist, the study would be described as being racist and wrong, etc.

Stupid reasoning. Some narrow minded people can't accept facts, that people of some origin or colour do more some things than others. This is not racist, these are facts. Interpretation can be racist. Big difference.
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Old April 8th, 2020, 10:02 AM   #12
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Default Re: Uniquemind vs Snowfox

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uniquemind View Post
So new thread because this debate has cropped up in another thread.


Snowfox has proposed that factual statements can be racist.


I said no they can’t, unless they’re ad hominem statements with no merit other than being mean.


Who is right and why, let’s begin the discussion or debate whichever it turns into.
Well, here is an example of fact, considering people can even get offended by age, look at the whole 'ok boomer' trend. Here's an example.

People over the age of 65 have a higher chance of dying of old age. (Duh)
-That's a fact

People over the age of 65 NEED to die already.
-That's a statement, it is offensive.

Now, regarding insults at other peoples/races, here it goes:

American school students fare worse at PISA tests compared to some European countries.
-That's a fact. Your education system needs to be worked on

Americans are simply dumb.
-That's a statement which would offend everybody here from the USA.

Serb troops commited the Srebrenica Massacre.
-True, as a Serb I am not going to dispute that.

Serbs are a genocidal people that drink blood of children.
-False and offensive statement, for obvious reasons. Still it was paraded around during the nineties.

Many Asian kids excel at mathematics.
-True. Kids from all races can excel at math. Each one has its' jewels

If you are Asian, you must be good at maths.
-False statement, you get the point.


People nowadays are more used to looking at bits of facts and not the whole picture. Sure, white people in majority are responaible for school shootings in America, but they make up the majority of the population in the US too. People shouls look at causation, not race of the perpetrator. Black people on average commit more crime than other races in the US, but it has to do with poverty and institutional opression, not with skin colour. Not to mention court prejudices.

People at both sides of the political spectrum can and do get offended by facts, which is ridiculous to me. When viewing facts, it is important to discard all narratives and idealism, and just look at the facts from an objective standpoint.

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Old April 8th, 2020, 10:37 AM   #13
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Default Re: Uniquemind vs Snowfox

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Originally Posted by Stronk Serb View Post
Well, here is an example of fact, considering people can even get offended by age, look at the whole 'ok boomer' trend. Here's an example.

People over the age of 65 have a higher chance of dying of old age. (Duh)
-That's a fact

People over the age of 65 NEED to die already.
-That's a statement, it is offensive.

Now, regarding insults at other peoples/races, here it goes:

American school students fare worse at PISA tests compared to some European countries.
-That's a fact. Your education system needs to be worked on

Americans are simply dumb.
-That's a statement which would offend everybody here from the USA.

Serb troops commited the Srebrenica Massacre.
-True, as a Serb I am not going to dispute that.

Serbs are a genocidal people that drink blood of children.
-False and offensive statement, for obvious reasons. Still it was paraded around during the nineties.

Many Asian kids excel at mathematics.
-True. Kids from all races can excel at math. Each one has its' jewels

If you are Asian, you must be good at maths.
-False statement, you get the point.


People nowadays are more used to looking at bits of facts and not the whole picture. Sure, white people in majority are responaible for school shootings in America, but they make up the majority of the population in the US too. People shouls look at causation, not race of the perpetrator. Black people on average commit more crime than other races in the US, but it has to do with poverty and institutional opression, not with skin colour. Not to mention court prejudices.

People at both sides of the political spectrum can and do get offended by facts, which is ridiculous to me. When viewing facts, it is important to discard all narratives and idealism, and just look at the facts from an objective standpoint.
What about ultra masculine gang culture it has nothing to do with murders....

Also remember that if idealism and facts dont match idealism wins 100% of times. Thats how it is nowadays and will be until end of times.
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Old April 8th, 2020, 02:07 PM   #14
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Default Re: Uniquemind vs Snowfox

It really depends on the context in which they are said, I suppose. If you are going on some sort of racist rant about black people and you utilize the infamous “despite making up just 13% of the (American) population, black people account for 50% of the crime” statistic, then you are being racist. This is racism for three reasons: 1) You are not taking into account the history of oppression, redlining, etc. that now leaves many African American impoverished and with little other choice than to turn to crime; 2) You are not taking into account how black people are profiled against and arrested at a greatly disproportionate rate, as well as how many of these arrests being for possession of something like weed, which really shouldn’t be illegal to begin with imho; and 3) This statistic is never used in any sort of positive context, the only context this statistic is ever used in is to try and prove that black people are more prone to crime, and thus that somehow makes them more dangerous than white people.

So while inherently a factual statement is not racist, it all depends on how or why that statement is being utilized. I believe my aforementioned example above can also illustrate how a factual statement can also be misleading, and so facts can also be warped to try and fit someone’s narrative. Another example is with President Trump and how he refuses to refer to Coronavirus as anything other than the “Chinese Virus” on account that “it comes from China”. Like yes, we all know it comes from China, nobody is blaming you for starting the virus, but all it does when you call it nothing other than the “Chinese Virus” is promote a mentality that every Chinese person has it, and so people should stay away from them. There is no logical reason why one should call it the “Chinese Virus” over the Coronavirus, when the latter has no implications of racism. So stubbornly adhering to the former only serves to perpetuate racial prejudices against Chinese people or others of Asian decent, even though it is factual that the disease itself comes from China.

So, this is all to say that facts can be racist when they lack some sort of historical or cultural context, and when they are being used to imply that someone else is inferior or otherwise worthy of prejudice. But this does not mean that facts are inherently racist. The fact that African Americans make up 40-50% of crime is true (depending on what your source is), though there are a number of historical and cultural reasons why this is the case. But when this statistic is used in any to way disparage members of the black community, that’s where the racism begins.



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Old April 8th, 2020, 02:11 PM   #15
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Default Re: Uniquemind vs Snowfox

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Originally Posted by Snowfox View Post
What about ultra masculine gang culture it has nothing to do with murders....

Also remember that if idealism and facts dont match idealism wins 100% of times. Thats how it is nowadays and will be until end of times.
Impoverished areas have a higher tendency of crime because of a lack of other means of income. Plus, many governments are keeping those same areas underfunded because crime is needed to justify certain policies and to provide a manpower pool of poor people who view joining the armed forces as a way out. You cannot remove all crime, but you can easily curb it to a manageable level. Governments don't want to do that.

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It really depends on the context in which they are said, I suppose. If you are going on some sort of racist rant about black people and you utilize the infamous “despite making up just 13% of the (American) population, black people account for 50% of the crime” statistic, then you are being racist. This is racism for three reasons: 1) You are not taking into account the history of oppression, redlining, etc. that now leaves many African American impoverished and with little other choice than to turn to crime; 2) You are not taking into account how black people are profiled against and arrested at a greatly disproportionate rate, as well as how many of these arrests being for possession of something like weed, which really shouldn’t be illegal to begin with imho; and 3) This statistic is never used in any sort of positive context, the only context this statistic is ever used in is to try and prove that black people are more prone to crime, and thus that somehow makes them more dangerous than white people.

So while inherently a factual statement is not racist, it all depends on how or why that statement is being utilized. I believe my aforementioned example above can also illustrate how a factual statement can also be misleading, and so facts can also be warped to try and fit someone’s narrative. Another example is with President Trump and how he refuses to refer to Coronavirus as anything other than the “Chinese Virus” on account that “it comes from China”. Like yes, we all know it comes from China, nobody is blaming you for starting the virus, but all it does when you call it nothing other than the “Chinese Virus” is promote a mentality that every Chinese person has it, and so people should stay away from them. There is no logical reason why one should call it the “Chinese Virus” over the Coronavirus, when the latter has no implications of racism. So stubbornly adhering to the former only serves to perpetuate racial prejudices against Chinese people or others of Asian decent, even though it is factual that the disease itself comes from China.

So, this is all to say that facts can be racist when they lack some sort of historical or cultural context, and when they are being used to imply that someone else is inferior or otherwise worthy of prejudice. But this does not mean that facts are inherently racist. The fact that African Americans make up 40-50% of crime is true (depending on what your source is), though there are a number of historical and cultural reasons why this is the case. But when this statistic is used in any to way disparage members of the black community, that’s where the racism begins.
Really good example. We agree on the black people in the US. Also if corona is to be called the Chinese Virus, the Spanish Flu should be called the American Flu because it originated from the US. Spain is the first country that identified it as a new disease.

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Old April 9th, 2020, 10:25 AM   #16
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Impoverished areas have a higher tendency of crime because of a lack of other means of income. Plus, many governments are keeping those same areas underfunded because crime is needed to justify certain policies and to provide a manpower pool of poor people who view joining the armed forces as a way out. You cannot remove all crime, but you can easily curb it to a manageable level. Governments don't want to do that.



Really good example. We agree on the black people in the US. Also if corona is to be called the Chinese Virus, the Spanish Flu should be called the American Flu because it originated from the US. Spain is the first country that identified it as a new disease.
So we end up in to conclusion that if you are not racist you have to prove it by hating white people/caucasian people to the point that in case you happen to be one you have to commit suicide.
There is no other solution to this for any of you.
Go and get yourself dead.
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Old April 9th, 2020, 08:04 PM   #17
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Default Re: Uniquemind vs Snowfox

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So we end up in to conclusion that if you are not racist you have to prove it by hating white people/caucasian people to the point that in case you happen to be one you have to commit suicide.
There is no other solution to this for any of you.
Go and get yourself dead.
I literally mentioned black people once in my reply and you assumed that I was willing to kill myself off or my race. No. Poor areas in general have higher crime rates, not just black areas. What governments in many countries don't do is try to adress the problem of poverty because it suits their needs to have a problematic poor population.

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Old April 10th, 2020, 12:03 AM   #18
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Default Re: Uniquemind vs Snowfox

There are many populations and areas which are dirt poor. Like in my own country where we have stagnant population or class of people who are jobless and who has been on dole for decades same for their kids. Still we dont see them going murdering each other or anyone else as daily hobby.
Why is that?
It is not about someone being in powerty. Its about culture where its seen as manly thing to wave guns and shoot people. Its about selling drugs and being in gangs and using violence not as necessary tool of last choise but tool to brag how big guy you are.
USA has this shoot em up culture and gang culture.
Something similar we see in europe with muslims while they get given shitloads of money and they are pushed forward they still are more violent and respect no one.
Also their religion makes it clear that being violent a-hole is a good thing.
Then we have roma people...... I really dont know whats all about that
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