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Old November 18th, 2020, 11:12 PM   #21
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Default Re: The myth called socialism in China

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Originally Posted by Snowfox View Post
Yet China and Venezuela are seen as model societies by majority of this forum.
Donít be silly
You really are big on the right wing stuff

Venezuela didnít crash because of socialism, itís because the government was nationalist and believed they had the ability to do it all and tried to without foreign expertise and so it all broke
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Old November 18th, 2020, 11:20 PM   #22
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Default Re: The myth called socialism in China

People fuss too much about socialism as if it was some evil plan to dominate the world or is a gateway drug to communism and that capitalism is the best way

Socialism is the fire department showing up when your home is burning
Capitalism is the insurance company trying not to pay you after
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Old November 19th, 2020, 05:05 AM   #23
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Default Re: The myth called socialism in China

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Most things said about China are wrong, just propaganda
Like the people owning production etc? Of course not
There are still hugely rich Chinese business people exploiting people there

Itís pretend socialism
The West will never admit that China is an openly capitalist country, because that means that all those shady practicec China does are okay. China will never admit that they are capitalist because they are doing all the shady shit the US is doing.

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Old November 19th, 2020, 02:11 PM   #24
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Default Re: The myth called socialism in China

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People fuss too much about socialism as if it was some evil plan to dominate the world or is a gateway drug to communism and that capitalism is the best way

Socialism is the fire department showing up when your home is burning
Capitalism is the insurance company trying not to pay you after
No socialism is Jack booted thugs who come to confiscate your hard earned property and who give it away for those who they deem suitable.
Socialism is when your private business is told to shut down or confiscated by government and you are imprisoned for being capitalist pig.

Socialism has one goal. It is to make everyone except ruling elite equally miserable and equally poor.

But as socialist you know this pretty well. All you want to do is to be that Jack booted thug.

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Old November 20th, 2020, 12:17 AM   #25
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Default Re: The myth called socialism in China

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The West will never admit that China is an openly capitalist country, because that means that all those shady practicec China does are okay. China will never admit that they are capitalist because they are doing all the shady shit the US is doing.
Exactly!!!
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Old November 20th, 2020, 12:19 AM   #26
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Default Re: The myth called socialism in China

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No socialism is Jack booted thugs who come to confiscate your hard earned property and who give it away for those who they deem suitable.
Socialism is when your private business is told to shut down or confiscated by government and you are imprisoned for being capitalist pig.

Socialism has one goal. It is to make everyone except ruling elite equally miserable and equally poor.

But as socialist you know this pretty well. All you want to do is to be that Jack booted thug.
LOL

Congratulations, you got suckered by the right wing propaganda

Simply isnít true

Do you not like state provided healthcare? Police? The military youíre about to serve in ( if you meet the physical/ mental requirements that is ) - all those things are examples of socialism
A portion of taxes/money raised for the common good - nothing wrong with that
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Old November 20th, 2020, 01:46 PM   #27
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Default Re: The myth called socialism in China

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LOL

Congratulations, you got suckered by the right wing propaganda

Simply isnít true

Do you not like state provided healthcare? Police? The military youíre about to serve in ( if you meet the physical/ mental requirements that is ) - all those things are examples of socialism
A portion of taxes/money raised for the common good - nothing wrong with that
No that is not socialism its called welfare state. There is huge different between those two.
In Socialism everything is owned by state and no private business is allowed.
Wellfare state exists to make sure that those who can not make ends need will be taken care of. And those who do will pay taxes (its damn insurance scheme) will pay for it.

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Old November 21st, 2020, 01:48 AM   #28
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Default Re: The myth called socialism in China

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No that is not socialism its called welfare state. There is huge different between those two.
In Socialism everything is owned by state and no private business is allowed.
Wellfare state exists to make sure that those who can not make ends need will be taken care of. And those who do will pay taxes (its damn insurance scheme) will pay for it.
Actually, socialism means that all means of production, or as you put it, business, is owned by the workers, either through the state, or businesses equitably owned by the workers who work in them. Personal property still exists under socialism. What you mean by abolition of private property is communism.

Socialism in itself is an idea where a worker shouldn't be innapropriately compensated for their work. It means fair wages. Did you know the average worker became three times more productive and profitable for his employers, but the wages remained ubchanged from the 1970s.

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Old November 21st, 2020, 02:12 AM   #29
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Default Re: The myth called socialism in China

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Actually, socialism means that all means of production, or as you put it, business, is owned by the workers, either through the state, or businesses equitably owned by the workers who work in them. Personal property still exists under socialism. What you mean by abolition of private property is communism.

Socialism in itself is an idea where a worker shouldn't be innapropriately compensated for their work. It means fair wages. Did you know the average worker became three times more productive and profitable for his employers, but the wages remained ubchanged from the 1970s.
Wages are just numbers on your bank account. What your wages can buy ie what level of life quality you can afford is more important.

Fair wages are not socialism its part of multilateral welfare state. Only way to generate wealth is trough production and trade. Only seeking of profit makes sure that companies product goods and services that others want to buy.
From these profits you can take taxes and trough taxes you can fund wellfare state.
Wellfare states like Norway Sweden Finland and Denmark are completelly capitalistic on their core. In all nordic countries you face massive taxes on wages, on capital gains, on goods via VAT plus much more.
Wellfare state is insurance scheme which keeps working just as long as there are enough people working and paying taxes compared to those who receive handouts. As side note You were talking about cooperatives which happen to be pretty common here. Those work on capitalist principle.

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Old November 21st, 2020, 04:43 AM   #30
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Default Re: The myth called socialism in China

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No that is not socialism its called welfare state. There is huge different between those two.
In Socialism everything is owned by state and no private business is allowed.
Wellfare state exists to make sure that those who can not make ends need will be taken care of. And those who do will pay taxes (its damn insurance scheme) will pay for it.
And where do you see that existing?
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Old November 21st, 2020, 05:27 AM   #31
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Default Re: The myth called socialism in China

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And where do you see that existing?
Wellfare state?
Finland Sweden Norway Denmark Iceland.... Germany to a degree

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Old November 21st, 2020, 06:57 AM   #32
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Default Re: The myth called socialism in China

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Wages are just numbers on your bank account. What your wages can buy ie what level of life quality you can afford is more important.

Fair wages are not socialism its part of multilateral welfare state. Only way to generate wealth is trough production and trade. Only seeking of profit makes sure that companies product goods and services that others want to buy.
From these profits you can take taxes and trough taxes you can fund wellfare state.
Wellfare states like Norway Sweden Finland and Denmark are completelly capitalistic on their core. In all nordic countries you face massive taxes on wages, on capital gains, on goods via VAT plus much more.
Wellfare state is insurance scheme which keeps working just as long as there are enough people working and paying taxes compared to those who receive handouts. As side note You were talking about cooperatives which happen to be pretty common here. Those work on capitalist principle.
In socialism there has to be profit too. Socialism combines the welfare state with direct state/syndical/employee ownership over businesses. Plus there aren't exploitative practices, like banks offering loans in unstable foreign currency, charging high interest rates, unpaid work hours, unpaid internships, fair wages as in a living wage, not barely a pot to piss in, allowed unionization, lack of landlords etc.

The problem I have for welfare states, especially Germany, is how their businesses are willing to outsource production elswhere or behave like true predators towards markets in foreign countries.

In Yugoslavia, for instance, companies put money away every month into a housing fund, meaning that after 3-10 years of work, you were provided by a newly build apartment. There were worker leisure centers all along the coast.

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Old November 21st, 2020, 07:33 AM   #33
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Default Re: The myth called socialism in China

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Originally Posted by Cassi View Post
LOL

Congratulations, you got suckered by the right wing propaganda

Simply isnít true

Do you not like state provided healthcare? Police? The military youíre about to serve in ( if you meet the physical/ mental requirements that is ) - all those things are examples of socialism
A portion of taxes/money raised for the common good - nothing wrong with that

Iím afraid that youíre wrong here. Those are not examples of socialism.
Something like state provided healthcare is an example of a mild socialist principle that only works in conjunction with a largely capitalist state- like in the UK or in Scandinavia.
None of the countries you mentioned in a previous post are socialist countries.

You say that socialism is a portion of taxes... no itís not. True socialism is the abolition of private wealth. If you believe in that then fine, but donít misrepresent what socialism is.

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Old November 21st, 2020, 11:59 AM   #34
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Default Re: The myth called socialism in China

Right, it's right-wing propaganda that considers these things "socialism" (well, not all of them, just the ones they happen to oppose at the moment). In the U.S., "socialism" has become a pejorative used to describe any social programs, like universal healthcare.

This is a colloquial American definition of "socialism": any left-wing ideology, government regulations, or policies promoting a welfare state, nationalization, etc.

Not the original meaning of socialism and not a meaning used anywhere outside of American politics.

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Old November 21st, 2020, 06:11 PM   #35
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Default Re: The myth called socialism in China

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Right, it's right-wing propaganda that considers these things "socialism" (well, not all of them, just the ones they happen to oppose at the moment). In the U.S., "socialism" has become a pejorative used to describe any social programs, like universal healthcare.

This is a colloquial American definition of "socialism": any left-wing ideology, government regulations, or policies promoting a welfare state, nationalization, etc.

Not the original meaning of socialism and not a meaning used anywhere outside of American politics.


Marx put it very nicely too.

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Old November 21st, 2020, 06:50 PM   #36
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Default Re: The myth called socialism in China

PR China was Communist.

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Old Yesterday, 07:32 AM   #37
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Default Re: The myth called socialism in China

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PR China was Communist.
Wasn't. It was socialist. Under Mao China strived towards communism. Unsure how, though, considering Mao's ineptitude at industrial organizing.

No government claimed to be communist, they all claimed to be socialist with aspirations towards communism.

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Old Today, 01:39 AM   #38
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Default Re: The myth called socialism in China

When the People's Republic of China (PRC) was founded by Mao Zedong in 1949 he declared the PRC as a "socialist" republic. However, in the 1980's, Chairman Deng Xiaoping broke with Maoist ideology and instituted a "Maoist" version of state capitalism. Since then, China has seen spectacular growth powered by penetration in the world markets mainly in Europe and the USA. As a result, the Party has allowed the growth of a middle class which has lifted hundreds of millions of Chinese out of poverty. This is virtually unheard of in traditional socialist states. China always has claimed to be a "socialist" state adhering to Marxist/Leninist principles. But, in reality, it's not anything close to those principles. In fact, Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin are turning over in their graves seeing how China has strayed from the path of pure Marxist ideology and dialectic. Since 1992, China called herself a "socialist market economy". But, in fact, it's more capitalism than socialism. The difference is that in China, the government and Party have total control and influence over all economic ventures. Nothing happens economically in China without the government and Party knowing and approving such ventures. It is state controlled capitalism with a socialism twist.

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Old Today, 02:19 AM   #39
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Default Re: The myth called socialism in China

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When the People's Republic of China (PRC) was founded by Mao Zedong in 1949 he declared the PRC as a "socialist" republic. However, in the 1980's, Chairman Deng Xiaoping broke with Maoist ideology and instituted a "Maoist" version of state capitalism. Since then, China has seen spectacular growth powered by penetration in the world markets mainly in Europe and the USA. As a result, the Party has allowed the growth of a middle class which has lifted hundreds of millions of Chinese out of poverty. This is virtually unheard of in traditional socialist states. China always has claimed to be a "socialist" state adhering to Marxist/Leninist principles. But, in reality, it's not anything close to those principles. In fact, Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin are turning over in their graves seeing how China has strayed from the path of pure Marxist ideology and dialectic. Since 1992, China called herself a "socialist market economy". But, in fact, it's more capitalism than socialism. The difference is that in China, the government and Party have total control and influence over all economic ventures. Nothing happens economically in China without the government and Party knowing and approving such ventures. It is state controlled capitalism with a socialism twist.
More with a socialist aesthethic. What I see that they've done better than the classical central planned economies of the socialist era is essentially predict and mandate it via legislature, for example, most factories are openning up on the coastline, so the legislature passed laws making companies hire a certain percentage of people from inland China, allowing the poor peasantry a way out.

Still, i can tell from experience that if you toil for 3$ a day or toil for 10$ a day, it makes no difference because the cost of living is much higher than you can afford.

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