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Old June 12th, 2021, 12:31 PM   #21
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Default Re: Should "critical race theory" be taught in schools?

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American USA Whites, are taking their microcosm of truth (that of the 2000-4000 Billionaires or millionaires) on the planet, because the concentration of those are mostly white, that therefore the entire race has more equity and is therefore privilege, IS a half-truth strawman argument.

That’s why it’s flawed but it’s based in some truth.

The problem is because you’re taking a small percentage of the population, looking at their wealth and power, and then equating it to an entire race (or in some cases not even race, just on their appearance on the outside, and not really their environment in how they were raised or their genetics persay).


It’s an unfair foundational argument. The reason being TONS of poor-whites live in absolute squalor poverty in conditions that are very similar to poor Latin American, Asian, and African american populations.

The struggle is more equitable to be honest, and for those who have a lot the issue and conversation needs to come from the job-support and job-training angle so diversity CAN be achieved but also naturally strengthen the nation’s workforce’s skill set.


What’s happening is a bastardization of that concept, where diversity-hires, are happening in some industries (some more than others) where it’s being combined with the cheap-side values of capitalism where business-supply chains or manufacturing processes are cutting corners of quality (in the product or in job skilled workers at the hiring-screening process).

They’re fitting racial quotas of diversity to report back to US Dept. of Labor, and to virtue signal in marketing campaigns in commercials to try to change image and capture Millenials and Gen Z to say “their brand stands for something buy product X” and in some respects that’s working.

People follow the moral or herd mentality of the “right thing” to do.

But it’s also come at a cost, such as what’s happen with some of the big movie studios and their brands out of Hollywood.


This video below mentions one dynamic combined with a tangential aspect of CRT which is “moralization” message within media products, in a global-trade environment. (Warning: the video is about 50 minutes long to listen to)


https://youtu.be/muO5fy7lOOM



I should also note that on youtube, and in various other websites about entertainment journalism (marketing in some ways), this youtube channel carries the stigma of being labeled “alt-right or hateful”.

But you take a listen for yourself and see if they’re truly hateful, or if they’re just really critical in thought, but analytical with valid perspective?

Then think about if because of the strength of their argument if their opponents who feel threatened by their channel and voice, are being metaphorically slandered so as to product a image or brand they’re criticizing?

————

This might seem off topic but it isn’t. CRT and intersectionalism, starts in schools and colleges, but it’s beginning to seep into business structures, products, and therefore the revenue streams of businesses in ways that threaten a business’s profitability and therefore household income of a country’s populace (b/c layoffs when businesses experience shrinking revenues).


You need to see the connection from A to B to C to D, to see the overall causal effects of why teaching CRT and intersectionalism in the dogmatic way it’s been going, has been hurting more than helping.
I didn't say all whites are better off because whites are in power. You had poor whites in Apartheid South Africa too. But like it was stated above, those whites had to worry less because they were poor, not because they were poor and black.

I still think CRT is a bad way to adress the problem because it doesn't adress economics, social structures and other factors. Plus, it can be discredited as a divisive factor, even though it's proponents don't have it in mind.

Still, I can't say it's a necessarily bad theory, because it aims to tackle an systemic problem. If nothing else, it should be used to highlight the issues.

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Old June 13th, 2021, 12:53 AM   #22
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Default Re: Should "critical race theory" be taught in schools?

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I didn't say all whites are better off because whites are in power. You had poor whites in Apartheid South Africa too. But like it was stated above, those whites had to worry less because they were poor, not because they were poor and black.

I still think CRT is a bad way to adress the problem because it doesn't adress economics, social structures and other factors. Plus, it can be discredited as a divisive factor, even though it's proponents don't have it in mind.

Still, I can't say it's a necessarily bad theory, because it aims to tackle an systemic problem. If nothing else, it should be used to highlight the issues.


Just because the cause is noble doesn’t meant the methods to addressing or even discussing the research or dissection and proposed solutions to the problem are valid.

There’s a reason it’s called a “theory”.


And a lot of the topic is the dreaded “proving a negative” statistical claim argument, and a lot of it is obfuscation.


Culturally too you can see tons of people from true historically proven oppressive classes, but in modern day the modern generation are kinda using it as an excuse to excuse bad behavior, which should be looked at as bad behavior in isolation.


Because a lot of the “they dismissed me because of the (age, race, gender etc.) a lot of that is self-talk and internally assumed as a rule by an individual, just because of the statistics.

But in reality they could be dismissed due to a myriad of valid reasons like attitude on the job, job performance, etc.

I had a short job in retail in years past while going to high school, and i had a few coworkers who were of what we’d call an “oppressed class” and they had oppositional defiance toward what management asked us to do. On the clock they’d be randomly singing rap songs or being distracted when they were supposed to be focused, and after a few months they were being nit picky about what they wanted to do as job duties etc.

But what they were asked to do management asked almost everyone to do that wasn’t a minor (me and a couple others due to law).

Situations like that call into question on how much one’s race is truly holding people down, versus personal discipline to learn and have a good work ethic against the backdrop of many programs designed to be the olive branch to help those we know are oppressed historically.


So that argument only goes so far and in fairness can only garner so much sympathy. You look at people from racial minority class backgrounds who have succeeded and you ask “why weren’t they held back if this truism exists?”

And you read all these books like “the 7 habits of highly successful people” and you question that balance between environmental oppression versus individual responsibility etc..

Localized locus of control versus external locus of control type of situation.
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Old June 13th, 2021, 03:38 AM   #23
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Default Re: Should "critical race theory" be taught in schools?

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Just because the cause is noble doesn’t meant the methods to addressing or even discussing the research or dissection and proposed solutions to the problem are valid.

There’s a reason it’s called a “theory”.


And a lot of the topic is the dreaded “proving a negative” statistical claim argument, and a lot of it is obfuscation.


Culturally too you can see tons of people from true historically proven oppressive classes, but in modern day the modern generation are kinda using it as an excuse to excuse bad behavior, which should be looked at as bad behavior in isolation.


Because a lot of the “they dismissed me because of the (age, race, gender etc.) a lot of that is self-talk and internally assumed as a rule by an individual, just because of the statistics.

But in reality they could be dismissed due to a myriad of valid reasons like attitude on the job, job performance, etc.

I had a short job in retail in years past while going to high school, and i had a few coworkers who were of what we’d call an “oppressed class” and they had oppositional defiance toward what management asked us to do. On the clock they’d be randomly singing rap songs or being distracted when they were supposed to be focused, and after a few months they were being nit picky about what they wanted to do as job duties etc.

But what they were asked to do management asked almost everyone to do that wasn’t a minor (me and a couple others due to law).

Situations like that call into question on how much one’s race is truly holding people down, versus personal discipline to learn and have a good work ethic against the backdrop of many programs designed to be the olive branch to help those we know are oppressed historically.


So that argument only goes so far and in fairness can only garner so much sympathy. You look at people from racial minority class backgrounds who have succeeded and you ask “why weren’t they held back if this truism exists?”

And you read all these books like “the 7 habits of highly successful people” and you question that balance between environmental oppression versus individual responsibility etc..

Localized locus of control versus external locus of control type of situation.
I agree with you that race/gender/religion is sometimes used as an excuse. Here people do not blame race for lack of success, but blame the government, family, and even the former socialist government which dissolved in 1991 even though they were born years later.

And, like I said, CRT is not correct in their assesment. Still, we will see many theories and ideas in the future, so one will be correct... eventually.

Yes, there are opressed classes, but they won't change the system to a level playing field by whining, but by self-organizing and by posing a united front. Many people think that by just talking about a problem they will make it go away. It requires action.

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Old June 14th, 2021, 02:54 AM   #24
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Default Re: Should "critical race theory" be taught in schools?

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I agree with you that race/gender/religion is sometimes used as an excuse. Here people do not blame race for lack of success, but blame the government, family, and even the former socialist government which dissolved in 1991 even though they were born years later.

And, like I said, CRT is not correct in their assesment. Still, we will see many theories and ideas in the future, so one will be correct... eventually.

Yes, there are opressed classes, but they won't change the system to a level playing field by whining, but by self-organizing and by posing a united front. Many people think that by just talking about a problem they will make it go away. It requires action.
I think by action, nuanced decisions need to be done and it starts in the education system, police protocol systems and in mental health.

A lot of the trauma from minorities also comes from other minorities as well, not just whites and that has to be addressed.

And taxes on the rich (regardless of race) do have to go up.

But this attack on meritocracy has to stop, it has to because the push for equity in (college admissions and more) is really causing the main vein of discontent.


And loans can’t also just be silly willy nilly be made from financial sector to “disadvantaged or oppressed groups” because then the entire financial system might be giving loans to dead-end business ideas, setting the entire global financial system of the west into another situation for a recession when a financial bubble pops.

Like we look at what lead up to the 2008 financial collapse, and the easing of regulation restrictions on who could get a loan, was part of that for the same morality reasons (but in this case included the elderly so they could get loans to stay in their homes and age-in-place, until they died).

But what happened as we learned is that if done wrong, such programs while well-meaning, rob-Peter to pay Paul, and people end up getting hurt anyway and sometimes worse.


Now you’re also in a different country from USA, so idk how much you’re aware of what’s going on culturally-politically and stuff in USA regarding these issues at the moment. But you did give feedback and thanks.
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Old June 14th, 2021, 11:30 AM   #25
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Default Re: Should "critical race theory" be taught in schools?

The problem with the current state of "affirmative action" and the attack on meritocracy is that its goal is equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity. I think we would all agree that there shouldn't be barriers to minorities in certain jobs or universities but once those barriers are eliminated, it still may be the case that fewer minorities end up in those jobs or universities. It may not have anything to do with racism, but still many will try and reinforce those numbers and quotas, hiring and admitting people who don't really belong there. As far as academics are concerned, it starts in the public education system. Equality of opportunity in universities can't be achieved if schools in majority-minority areas are lagging far behind schools in white areas. (Case in point: there are two schools in the same city around here, one is one of the highest-ranking in the state and one is severely underperforming. The high-ranking school is 90% white/Asian, the underperforming one is 90% black/Hispanic. This kind of thing is a recipe for inequality and resentment if the children themselves are disadvantaged from the beginning). And you're right that this divide is wealth-based: the school is bad because the residents are poor and there is no funding. But the fact that wealth levels so perfectly correspond with race in many situations (obviously not all) ensures the longevity of the racial divide and racial resentment. As I've said many times before, there won't be "good relations" between the races as long as black Americans, for example, are dead last in every statistic (as they currently are).

I agree with you that these issues are often class-based more than they are race-based, it's just that the correlation between race and class is very salient in many parts of the country and it has its roots in historical racism. At the same time, I agree that many people blame "covert racism" for a disappointment in the outcome (again it's this problem of equality of outcome over equality of opportunity). That you're Hispanic and you were denied that job in favor of a white person doesn't mean racism occurred; it could simply be that you weren't as qualified. I'm all for making it so that greater numbers of minorities will be qualified.

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Old June 14th, 2021, 02:00 PM   #26
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Default Re: Should "critical race theory" be taught in schools?

Then we agree here.

I’m all for increasing equality of opportunity.


But I read all these books and articles about self-motivation and 7 habits of highly successful people.


It all points towards personal psychological introspective things.

Small changes society can make are changes in how credit scores are calculated, more equitable access to scholarships.


But like where it gets sticky is when the bar of expectations gets lowered in the name of equity.

This is happening at large with conversations around military (selective service act) and firefighting careers on gender lines, whereas before these specialized exceptions to the moral pursuit of equity were defended at a fair line due to the nature of importance the jobs hold.

You also have a lot of what psychology call “learned helplessness”.

There are giant resource inequalities to be sure, but compared to prior generations, there have been low-cost internet programs offered by telecom giants to poorer communities, a lot of free educational resources are on YouTube now which doesn’t cost a thing (Khan Academy).


What’s the rub here is that I think a lot of people are upset about the general shift in culture that the onus of responsibility of how others feel emotionally, is being placed on groups of other people who don’t feel they’re responsible for why others are emotionally down.


A lot of failure, is failure to believe in oneself, and to figure out how to strategically fail until you strategically succeed. A lot of that is self-talk and discipline to avoid vices, like hanging out with the wrong crowd who might rope you into criminal activity etc.


I have a few cousins who when they were younger attempted to socialize with a minority social clique just out of innocent extend and olive branch friendship making, and what she got in return was bullying and rejection on the grounds of “youre not one of us, what are you doing talking to us?”

Race relations don’t go anywhere with behavior like that if racial cliques are self-reinforcing.


There’s way too much pride, which I think exists because of cultural-economic insecurities and mental overt generalizations people tell themselves boardering on fallacies, which stop people from positively socializing which expand opportunities at the next stage of life like job seeking and networking. I think this is the case because “starting at the bottom” of an corporations power structure is inherently triggering to those who’ve been historically taught that a power structure has always been oppressive to them, so they’re hyper defensive all the time and their emotional “act out” triggers are psychologically primed all the time. Mentally that sets one up for failure because one is mentally-emotionally living in the historical statistics too long and while those are true, they might not be true to the same degree now. But it becomes circular as you can see.

Teachers and Bosses and coworkers gotta put up with people who have attitude problems, which can disrupt workflow and profitability or employee safety.

Also ive noticed a trend that tons of successful minorities end up having politically fiscal perspective on conservative values or social values, they believe or attribute a lot of community drama from broken home families, absent father figure (from sexual player culture etc). Or at least they’ve identified something tangible about how to break the cycle: financial illiteracy and business illiteracy in a capitalist system. Tackle that and things improve.

But that’s not what we’ve got in the rhetoric today from political left: a lot of it is anti-capitalist. So few recognize this.


Also a lot of black cops their community calls them out as “uncle toms” etc. there’s an inflexibility in their defensiveness within the culture too that prevents many from walking the steps that whiteness doesn’t “own or is their way” it’s just the economic system USA and the west adopted.

It’s not the “white” way to success. It’s generically universal advice on how to be successful that many communities and individuals are avoiding. Everyone expecting that millionaire lifestyle from reality TV and youtube, it’s like Bill Maher said, “lower expectations” of what progress looks like, and note the progress that has been made.


Poor whites who get caught up in drugs or crime end up in jail with very similar obstacles of economic mobility too.


———

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Old June 14th, 2021, 09:43 PM   #27
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Default Re: Should "critical race theory" be taught in schools?

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The problem with the current state of "affirmative action" and the attack on meritocracy is that its goal is equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity. I think we would all agree that there shouldn't be barriers to minorities in certain jobs or universities but once those barriers are eliminated, it still may be the case that fewer minorities end up in those jobs or universities. It may not have anything to do with racism, but still many will try and reinforce those numbers and quotas, hiring and admitting people who don't really belong there. As far as academics are concerned, it starts in the public education system. Equality of opportunity in universities can't be achieved if schools in majority-minority areas are lagging far behind schools in white areas. (Case in point: there are two schools in the same city around here, one is one of the highest-ranking in the state and one is severely underperforming. The high-ranking school is 90% white/Asian, the underperforming one is 90% black/Hispanic. This kind of thing is a recipe for inequality and resentment if the children themselves are disadvantaged from the beginning). And you're right that this divide is wealth-based: the school is bad because the residents are poor and there is no funding. But the fact that wealth levels so perfectly correspond with race in many situations (obviously not all) ensures the longevity of the racial divide and racial resentment. As I've said many times before, there won't be "good relations" between the races as long as black Americans, for example, are dead last in every statistic (as they currently are).

I agree with you that these issues are often class-based more than they are race-based, it's just that the correlation between race and class is very salient in many parts of the country and it has its roots in historical racism. At the same time, I agree that many people blame "covert racism" for a disappointment in the outcome (again it's this problem of equality of outcome over equality of opportunity). That you're Hispanic and you were denied that job in favor of a white person doesn't mean racism occurred; it could simply be that you weren't as qualified. I'm all for making it so that greater numbers of minorities will be qualified.
If I am correct, the 1st school that is 90% white/Asian costs In-state tuition 13,240 USD(public) and the 2nd black/Hispanic school costs 58,195 USD(private) and the 1st school is more known for academics and the 2nd school is more know for sports. The acceptance rate for 1st school is 12.3% and the 2nd school is 11.4 %
Things to be considered.

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Old June 14th, 2021, 10:01 PM   #28
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Default Re: Should "critical race theory" be taught in schools?

WARNING-I hope this not offend anyone
But people of different races can view things differently

https://youtu.be/chy8n7aqE_U

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Old June 14th, 2021, 10:33 PM   #29
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Default Re: Should "critical race theory" be taught in schools?

What do you see?



We all see things differently.
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Old June 15th, 2021, 12:26 PM   #30
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Default Re: Should "critical race theory" be taught in schools?

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Also ive noticed a trend that tons of successful minorities end up having politically fiscal perspective on conservative values or social values, they believe or attribute a lot of community drama from broken home families, absent father figure (from sexual player culture etc). Or at least they’ve identified something tangible about how to break the cycle: financial illiteracy and business illiteracy in a capitalist system. Tackle that and things improve.

But that’s not what we’ve got in the rhetoric today from political left: a lot of it is anti-capitalist. So few recognize this.
This I believe is an especially important point. Malcolm X firmly believed that black people needed to advance financially and learn to take advantage of the capitalist system. Many on the left are convinced the system itself doesn't work and is hopeless (due to the fact that black people are still so disproportionately poor) but maybe the answer is better literacy of the system, not discarding the system altogether. And you're right that some traditional paths to success may be labeled "whiteness" when that is not the case; even if historically black people were barred from them, that doesn't mean they're inherently "white" and that another, unique, "minority only" way needs to be sought. What works works. It can theoretically work for anyone.

However, to your point about absent fathers and player culture, another reason many fathers are absent of course is due to over-incarceration. That is something that we can address on a systematic level. No, I'm not suggesting prison or police abolition (again, I understand where the support for these things comes from, I just think it's misguided), but we don't need 40% of the prison population to be black men. It's one way that black families are prevented from being whole.

But you're right that some of the reasons black people are disproportionately unsuccessful is cultural, it is a vicious cycle, and it's an "elephant in the room" that people don't want to talk about. Telling the individual that they need to change what they value and work on themselves is sometimes labeled "racist", but it's a harsh truth that until it's dealt with, large-scale improvements in the lives of black Americans won't be seen. And obviously it needs to come from within the community to be effective, not a top-down lecturing by elites.

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If I am correct, the 1st school that is 90% white/Asian costs In-state tuition 13,240 USD(public) and the 2nd black/Hispanic school costs 58,195 USD(private) and the 1st school is more known for academics and the 2nd school is more know for sports. The acceptance rate for 1st school is 12.3% and the 2nd school is 11.4 %
Things to be considered.
Just to be clear, I’m thinking of two public schools in the same city (but in different districts). I shouldn’t have said “around here” in the post. The schools in question are in a city in the San Francisco Bay Area. Two districts, one successful and expanding, one failing and at risk of being dissolved entirely.

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Old June 15th, 2021, 03:15 PM   #31
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Default Re: Should "critical race theory" be taught in schools?

The system was racist when the US was founded and undeniably remained so until the 1960s. I hope that this is teached as a historical fact in school.

What went wrong after the subsequent "reformation" attempts could ... should be truely discussed in Schools, because the current changes in case of voting rights of some states are again typically racist.





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Old June 16th, 2021, 03:35 AM   #32
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The system was racist when the US was founded and undeniably remained so until the 1960s. I hope that this is teached as a historical fact in school.

What went wrong after the subsequent "reformation" attempts could ... should be truely discussed in Schools, because the current changes in case of voting rights of some states are again typically racist.

Looking at you Florida and Georgia....enough said there on that. Criminalizing bringing food to someone in line, who might be disabled or have underlying health conditions...those ordinances need to be challenged in court on grounds of violations of the Americans with Disabilities Act combined with equal protections clause of the 14th amendment.

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This I believe is an especially important point. Malcolm X firmly believed that black people needed to advance financially and learn to take advantage of the capitalist system. Many on the left are convinced the system itself doesn't work and is hopeless (due to the fact that black people are still so disproportionately poor) but maybe the answer is better literacy of the system, not discarding the system altogether. And you're right that some traditional paths to success may be labeled "whiteness" when that is not the case; even if historically black people were barred from them, that doesn't mean they're inherently "white" and that another, unique, "minority only" way needs to be sought. What works works. It can theoretically work for anyone.

However, to your point about absent fathers and player culture, another reason many fathers are absent of course is due to over-incarceration. That is something that we can address on a systematic level. No, I'm not suggesting prison or police abolition (again, I understand where the support for these things comes from, I just think it's misguided), but we don't need 40% of the prison population to be black men. It's one way that black families are prevented from being whole.

But you're right that some of the reasons black people are disproportionately unsuccessful is cultural, it is a vicious cycle, and it's an "elephant in the room" that people don't want to talk about. Telling the individual that they need to change what they value and work on themselves is sometimes labeled "racist", but it's a harsh truth that until it's dealt with, large-scale improvements in the lives of black Americans won't be seen. And obviously it needs to come from within the community to be effective, not a top-down lecturing by elites.
Part of the problem though is that even “within” the black community (and this goes for other oppressed communities as well) they reject people from their community as “leaders” calling them “race traitors” or “sellouts” or “uncle toms” etc....so even in this vein they can’t win.

In some respects someone is going to have to take direction from another person who IS successful, and not equate the fact taht they’re being “taught” as if it’s the same dynamic of Master-Slave emotional-trigger response, that then cause the bad attitude most managers in a business setting are not going to tolerate.

And when a business suffers, it causes layoffs of everyone.


Also it’s really ironic that as we look at history, they’re plenty of examples minorities who have been really smart, and really crucial to the sciences, business, etc.. history overlooked them and we’re just now taking note to give them the spotlight.

There’s one ad i saw on youtube, of this guy whose responsible for developing the electron microphone, which is used in all computers (and content creators and cellphone users) throughout history.

So the issue isn’t a lack of success, it’s a lack of objective factual spotlight and recognition, especially as we look at the 1970’s-2010 timeframe.

On the incarceration issue, that’s trickier to navigate. Because as we address this issue we get into community policing, high and low police budges, the psychological state of criminals of any criminal-type (regardless of race), feminism’s argument about domestic-violence (like from black men to women which can be argued why cops were called which starts one’s criminal record).

The further you go back into the history of what generation you’re talking about (one must concede) we’re entering into decades of history where segregation and overt racism was clearly in effect.

I think the most ambiguous timeframes are actually the last 4 decades (depending on state) on if progress was truly made, and if the conversation around race, is too monolithic, and that there’s now real progress, fake-progress, and hindered progress in various stages depending on more narrowed definition on state, on townships, on specific individuals inside organizations and state-local government....rather than aggregating a “ALL of BLANK X “ is racist and painting with a broad brush.


Other “ists, and isms” have similar dynamics at play in the social fabric of “cancel culture and recent progressive movements similar to CRT”.


But if you want me to get into the sexism and metoo topic that’s another thread we need to make. But the parallels are interesting to take note of, as well as the overlap when we look at interracial dating-relationships, and families and the mixing of culture.

Tangential but worth discussing maybe....
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Old June 16th, 2021, 11:27 AM   #33
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Default Re: Should "critical race theory" be taught in schools?

^I may very well ask a question about #metoo. I can't remember if I did earlier when the topic was receiving greater coverage (I wanted to ask if the #metoo movement had gone too far and was conflating rape and sexual assault with lesser offenses like a bad date or a hand on the knee and the extent to which this is counterproductive and obviously we could talk about anything else related to the topic).

I think many people would recognize that the life of the average black American hasn't improved much in the past few decades for all our conversation about race. There was real progress in the mid-twentieth century but progress seems to have plateaued since then, with black Americans still disproportionately poor, uneducated, and incarcerated. In some cases it's gotten worse. Overall violent crime may be down across the nation since the 80s and 90s, but gun violence is out of control among black communities in cities like Chicago. So if constantly focusing on white racism isn't solving these issues, we need to look at other factors and solutions.

You're right that sometimes solutions or diagnoses of the problem from within the black community are not looked highly upon and dismissed as "race traitors" and such. Look at John McWhorter, a black linguistics professor who has said that black culture, not white racism is what is holding black Americans back. He has been the target of cancel mobs and denounced as a race traitor by blacks and a full-on racist by white liberals. He may not be right on every topic, but the fact that we can't even talk about anything other than white racism as a factor in the problems of black communities without being labeled "traitor" (if you're black) or "racist" (if you're not) is a massive problem. Again, it's the "elephant in the room". I'm not saying racist structures and white racism aren't a factor, but we've been addressing those for decades and little has changed. So there must be other factors within the black community. How do we better address them?

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Old June 16th, 2021, 04:09 PM   #34
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Default Re: Should "critical race theory" be taught in schools?

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^I may very well ask a question about #metoo. I can't remember if I did earlier when the topic was receiving greater coverage (I wanted to ask if the #metoo movement had gone too far and was conflating rape and sexual assault with lesser offenses like a bad date or a hand on the knee and the extent to which this is counterproductive and obviously we could talk about anything else related to the topic).

I think many people would recognize that the life of the average black American hasn't improved much in the past few decades for all our conversation about race. There was real progress in the mid-twentieth century but progress seems to have plateaued since then, with black Americans still disproportionately poor, uneducated, and incarcerated. In some cases it's gotten worse. Overall violent crime may be down across the nation since the 80s and 90s, but gun violence is out of control among black communities in cities like Chicago. So if constantly focusing on white racism isn't solving these issues, we need to look at other factors and solutions.

You're right that sometimes solutions or diagnoses of the problem from within the black community are not looked highly upon and dismissed as "race traitors" and such. Look at John McWhorter, a black linguistics professor who has said that black culture, not white racism is what is holding black Americans back. He has been the target of cancel mobs and denounced as a race traitor by blacks and a full-on racist by white liberals. He may not be right on every topic, but the fact that we can't even talk about anything other than white racism as a factor in the problems of black communities without being labeled "traitor" (if you're black) or "racist" (if you're not) is a massive problem. Again, it's the "elephant in the room". I'm not saying racist structures and white racism aren't a factor, but we've been addressing those for decades and little has changed. So there must be other factors within the black community. How do we better address them?



Well on the violent crime stat....goes to show that you can snapshot a statistic at any moment in time, and within months or days due to social-current events, that stat can be quickly outdated.

I think I heard on the news a few days ago (might’ve been nightly news by NBC) that crime in some cities like San Francisco or Oakland or Chicago, are up 720%.

Sorry VIOLENT crime is up 720%, and domestic violence is projected to be underreported during the “lockdowns” which are beginning to lift, but that during lockdowns if you were stuck in close quarters with an abusive parent or caregiver (let alone the foster care system) you seriously considered either suicide, self-harm, or retaliatory violence.


Like it or not the detractors of lockdowns, had a valid point, and the left mainly just dismissed them out of a rock and a hard place, but the language they used was to dismiss them as “conspiratorial or not community conscious” and came across as holier than thou.



On another topic addressed in past few years of “abortion” I took the stance of pro-choice, but I have to acknowledge that rape statistics or “claimed rape” when a lady seeks abortion services in some states, changes the context of how Planned parenthood notifies the guardians or parents of abortion service seekers.


One of the arguments from pro-life camp, is that the rape statistics are inflated due to girls and women who “claim rape” (whether or not it was) and do so because of parental retaliatory fears. Understandable why they do that but again, it would inflate “rape” statistics and that 1/6 people are victims becomes questionable in the backdrop of the metoo movement constantly quoting that stat.

Again these are elephant in the room questions, I’m surprised more people don’t address more or aren’t more blunt about because without them the debates go in circles.
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Old June 16th, 2021, 07:05 PM   #35
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Default Re: Should "critical race theory" be taught in schools?

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Like it or not the detractors of lockdowns, had a valid point, and the left mainly just dismissed them out of a rock and a hard place, but the language they used was to dismiss them as “conspiratorial or not community conscious” and came across as holier than thou.
This is an unfortunate result of the current abysmal state of political discourse and the rise of "sports team politics". It doesn't matter that the detractors had a point, they're "ideological enemies" so nothing they say can be relevant (from the point of view of the left). It's hard for the reasonable nuanced voice to get a word in edgewise with the discourse like this. Just look at the left wingers who questioned the "Russiagate" narrative. Anyone who questioned Russiagate had to be a Trump fanatic, so no point in listening to them, but many progressives were calling it out on the BS it was but their voices were drowned out.

That's the problem with these "elephant in the room" topics. People are afraid to talk about them because it goes against the orthodoxy, against the dominant narrative, even if we know it to be true and worth talking about (like you said, the fact that many of the people who have been attacking Asians in California have been young black men). But no, pointing that out is racist, so we can't talk about it. End of discussion.

Oh well. Some of us notice these things and don't subscribe so fervently to one side that we leave our brains behind.

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Old Yesterday, 09:53 AM   #36
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Default Re: Should "critical race theory" be taught in schools?

It scares conservatives so much they’ve had to start up the lies against it so it’s probably a good thing

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Old Today, 05:00 AM   #37
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It scares conservatives so much they’ve had to start up the lies against it so it’s probably a good thing
But that begs the question of what about it is scary to conservatives...are those on the left really listening to the specific complaints about the CRT?

I’m noticing each side very quickly not listening, and quick to group-label them as bigots, before actually engaging in a conversation.

On the other hand conservatives aren’t doing a good job differentiating themselves between the part of conservative culture that is rational versus irrational.

——
Some just lack the words to express what they feel and so they word their arguments sloppily and with poor logical foundation. So when they make their thesis statements, it’s easy for the political left to point and laugh at the poor structure.



From what I’ve seen, there are structural problems with CRT, and a few months ago there was a push by other minority communities who use CRT as the foundation of advocacy work, to tease/entertain the idea that Asians are too privileged and shouldn’t be considered “oppressed” which rightfully pissed off the Asian community (as it’s a stereotype that they’re the most successful of the minority communities economically).


SO there’s a lot of infighting created from CRT”s framing of who from which group is more deserving of help, in the name of equity, versus other groups.


So I respectfully disagree that it’s this simple. There’s a lot of factors at play at why CRT is good in premise but bad in practice.


There’s something very “cliche”ish’ about it. Reminds me of middle school and high school power-dynamics amongst various groups of kids, with gossip compounding it.
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Old Today, 07:32 AM   #38
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Default Re: Should "critical race theory" be taught in schools?

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Originally Posted by Uniquemind View Post
But that begs the question of what about it is scary to conservatives...are those on the left really listening to the specific complaints about the CRT?

I’m noticing each side very quickly not listening, and quick to group-label them as bigots, before actually engaging in a conversation.

On the other hand conservatives aren’t doing a good job differentiating themselves between the part of conservative culture that is rational versus irrational.

——
Some just lack the words to express what they feel and so they word their arguments sloppily and with poor logical foundation. So when they make their thesis statements, it’s easy for the political left to point and laugh at the poor structure.



From what I’ve seen, there are structural problems with CRT, and a few months ago there was a push by other minority communities who use CRT as the foundation of advocacy work, to tease/entertain the idea that Asians are too privileged and shouldn’t be considered “oppressed” which rightfully pissed off the Asian community (as it’s a stereotype that they’re the most successful of the minority communities economically).


SO there’s a lot of infighting created from CRT”s framing of who from which group is more deserving of help, in the name of equity, versus other groups.


So I respectfully disagree that it’s this simple. There’s a lot of factors at play at why CRT is good in premise but bad in practice.


There’s something very “cliche”ish’ about it. Reminds me of middle school and high school power-dynamics amongst various groups of kids, with gossip compounding it.
Usually it’s just they’re afraid to lose control of the racist status quo.
White supremacy isn’t all Nazis and Proud Boys, it’s government policies and society that conservatives need to maintain to make white people who are their main voters into feeling superior to minorities

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