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Old January 13th, 2021, 12:11 AM   #21
jasondrums
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Default Re: What kind of freedom should tech companies have to ban users and apps?

How is a private company deciding what happens on their platform "tyranny"?
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Old January 13th, 2021, 12:41 PM   #22
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Default Re: What kind of freedom should tech companies have to ban users and apps?

a private company has the right to ban anyone. that being said, i think that any large platform with that kind of influence has a responsibility to promote and defend constitutional rights including free speech. Free speech is only a right as long as its protected even for people we disagree with.

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Old January 13th, 2021, 12:46 PM   #23
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Default Re: What kind of freedom should tech companies have to ban users and apps?

@ jasondrums
it is not tyranny and it is totally their legal right, but a company, with that much influence in modern culture, banning people for thoughts and opinions puts out the idea that it's ok to silence or deplatform people that we disagree with. that is why it is a dangerous slope.

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Old January 13th, 2021, 12:55 PM   #24
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Default Re: What kind of freedom should tech companies have to ban users and apps?

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Originally Posted by BJade View Post
The problem is the company has to balance the safety of all users, with there right to free speech. You cant complain about being banned for breaching the terms of use multiple times, and still want people who share there opposing views to be banned. To say trump shouldn't be banned would imply that he was above laws (and if he wasn't president he would have been banned long before now)

They have to create a line on what is and isnt an acceptable use of there platform. Otherwise anything would be allowed
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither and will lose both."
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There is no balance. people who promote this balance of freedom and safety bullshit only do so in the pursuit of eroding freedom and attaining more power over people.

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Old January 13th, 2021, 01:04 PM   #25
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Default Re: What kind of freedom should tech companies have to ban users and apps?

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I think if they are going to ban Trump for supposedly violating their term of service, then they need to be fair and ban all of the actual real terrorists who use their platform for actual real terrorism...but they don't.
That's because the terrorists promote the same socialist propaganda. for a company that makes so much money off of its users, the anticap shit is getting a bit hypocritical.

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Old January 13th, 2021, 02:34 PM   #26
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Default Re: What kind of freedom should tech companies have to ban users and apps?

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@ jasondrums
it is not tyranny and it is totally their legal right, but a company, with that much influence in modern culture, banning people for thoughts and opinions puts out the idea that it's ok to silence or deplatform people that we disagree with. that is why it is a dangerous slope.
The only person silencing Trump right now is Trump. He can walk into the briefing room and address the world anytime he wants.

If Twitter wanted to ban Trump for "thoughts and opinions" they probably would have done it by now. He was on there talking shit about everybody and everything for years. They finally banned him because he was repeatedly violating their terms of service by spreading outright falsehoods about the election.

The thing that seems odd about all of this to me is that the same people worried about "tyranny" etc seem to be the same people who want the government to flex on Twitter.

Last edited by jasondrums; January 13th, 2021 at 02:41 PM.
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Old January 13th, 2021, 10:47 PM   #27
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Default Re: What kind of freedom should tech companies have to ban users and apps?

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Yeah, that's kind of my point...ToS are enforced with great bias, unfairly, and very selectively based on what the company's leadership's political views are and this is a problem -- all this is what I said in my original post.

The only inherent problem to reporting and fines is simply - who decides what crosses the line and what doesn't? It's very vague and leaves room for much abuse.

As for Google/FB/Twitter - yeah it's pretty well known that they listen in and target advertisements that way. Which is why if you have a problem with it, then stop using their services. Use a different search engine. Use a different social media platform (or better yet, none at all), use the free-speech alternatives to all these platforms. Parler was taken off the App Store and Google Play store and their website host (AWS) also removed them. Right now they have nothing but Parler will come back with different hosting service; use that once it's back online and delete your Twitter account and other social media.

I mean it sucks that these Big Tech tyrants are doing everything they've been doing, especially in recent times, but until/unless the government decides to regulate them more, your best choice is to stop giving them money by continuing to use their services and simply look for other alternatives.
Well, they should be regulated by laws being passed to first classify social media as public spaces, only then can site moderators remove content in a more just manner and add extra provisions regarding posting of child images to prevent posting of softcore child porn. Also if your content gets deleted despite it being legal, you can sue the company for endangering, in case of the US, your First Ammendment rights. Also since it's a public space, it could allow for better combatting of illegal materials posted, like child porn, because the company would report the account to the police for a post a user made.

For data collection, I try to lower my imprint as much as possible by using messaging apps like Signal and Telegram and trying not to use other apps as much for messaging. Still, kinda hard to convince people to switch. Like, dude. I study digital marketing, those companies are mining your data, it says so in the ToS nobody bothers to read and just accepts them. This reminds me of that South Park episode where Kyle got drafted for human testing by Steve Jobs because he didn't read the terms.

The EU model of private data protection should be expanded to include more information and under which conditions should companies be allowed to sell data and how profiling should work. For example, it's okay when YouTube reccomends content based on stuff you watched, but ludicrous to reccomend videos and ads based on your keyboard entries and not even typing but mentioning around your phone.

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Old January 13th, 2021, 11:54 PM   #28
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Default Re: What kind of freedom should tech companies have to ban users and apps?

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How is a private company deciding what happens on their platform "tyranny"?

Well what if a “private sector” hospital or bank up and said: “We don’t want to treat you because of a position you had on a issue that you publicly commented on an online platform or book you wrote X number of weeks/months/years ago”.

Oh look, we’re “a private sector business” the concept and right of “free speech” doesn’t apply to us.


Right, to some extent society has already accepted that even among the “private sector” we’ve made it illegal to refuse service in some specialized cases.



So idk I still defer to my original post that my idea provides the best starting point idea thus far, it’s not perfect by far. But we have to approach this topic as the law would approach it upon judicial review.
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Old January 14th, 2021, 06:50 AM   #29
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Default Re: What kind of freedom should tech companies have to ban users and apps?

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How is a private company deciding what happens on their platform "tyranny"?
Well, there were cases of blatant discrimination...

Last one that comes to mind is when a gay writer wrote a book on how to approach gay men and put a promo on his Facebook account. His account was deleted faster than Trump's. He never got an answer why, but promos of books written by straight men on how to approach women are allowed.

Also what i nituced is that tech companies violate local laws by advertising gambling businesses and are essentially advertising scams.

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Old January 14th, 2021, 09:27 AM   #30
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Default Re: What kind of freedom should tech companies have to ban users and apps?

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Well what if a “private sector” hospital or bank up and said: “We don’t want to treat you because of a position you had on a issue that you publicly commented on an online platform or book you wrote X number of weeks/months/years ago”.
You don't have to ask "What if?" Deutsche Bank came out a couple days ago and said they would no longer be doing business with Trump. Should the government force them to do business with him?

Quote:
Oh look, we’re “a private sector business” the concept and right of “free speech” doesn’t apply to us.


Right, to some extent society has already accepted that even among the “private sector” we’ve made it illegal to refuse service in some specialized cases.

So idk I still defer to my original post that my idea provides the best starting point idea thus far, it’s not perfect by far. But we have to approach this topic as the law would approach it upon judicial review.

The Supreme Court ruled that that bakery in Colorado refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding is an act of free speech. Based on that ruling, I feel OK about saying that Twitter declining to provide Trump with a platform to spread baseless lies about the election is an act of free speech as well.
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Old January 14th, 2021, 09:40 AM   #31
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Default Re: What kind of freedom should tech companies have to ban users and apps?

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Well, there were cases of blatant discrimination...

Last one that comes to mind is when a gay writer wrote a book on how to approach gay men and put a promo on his Facebook account. His account was deleted faster than Trump's. He never got an answer why, but promos of books written by straight men on how to approach women are allowed.

Also what i nituced is that tech companies violate local laws by advertising gambling businesses and are essentially advertising scams.
Not familiar with the facts surrounding the gay author guy on Facebook, but based on your account that sounds like something the gay author should take up in court.

I've never seen any ads for gambling on Twitter or really anywhere else online so I can't speak to that. Gambling is illegal in the state where I live but it is legal in the states to the north and east and I have seen billboards for casinos in those states. I assume that even though gambling is illegal here it isn't illegal to advertise for casinos where it is. I never gave it much thought.
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Old January 14th, 2021, 04:32 PM   #32
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Default Re: What kind of freedom should tech companies have to ban users and apps?

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The Supreme Court ruled that that bakery in Colorado refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding is an act of free speech. Based on that ruling, I feel OK about saying that Twitter declining to provide Trump with a platform to spread baseless lies about the election is an act of free speech as well.
To me, the "cake wars" issue seemed a case of a business refusing to provide a specific service (i.e. they will not make a cake for a same-sex wedding). They are not refusing to allow gay people inside their store or allow them to purchase something else (that would be discrimination).

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Also since it's a public space, it could allow for better combatting of illegal materials posted, like child porn, because the company would report the account to the police for a post a user made.
So under this plan, the only prohibited content on social media sites would be illegal content? What about, say, pornography, which many social media sites ban (but is not illegal)? Even physical public spaces are still subject to “decency laws” (i.e. it’s not illegal to drink alcohol, but it is to do so in public). Would there be similar restrictions in “digital public spaces”?

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Old January 14th, 2021, 07:24 PM   #33
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Default Re: What kind of freedom should tech companies have to ban users and apps?

Yeah... you are 100% correct about the ruling. To apply it to the Trump/Twitter situation, Twitter was happy to have him on there talking shit nonstop like everybody else on there but drew the line at him spreading falsehoods about the election and casting doubt on the transition of power, which was pretty much a nudge and a wink to the violent elements within his base.
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Old January 14th, 2021, 09:10 PM   #34
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Default Re: What kind of freedom should tech companies have to ban users and apps?

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If you've been following the news, you've seen that Trump has been banned from Twitter, apparently for inciting a riot and the fear that he would incite further violence. App stores (including Google and Apple) have also banned or threatened to ban Parler, a right-wing social media app.

I'm sure I've asked this question before, but I think it's time to address it again. Even if you agree that tech companies do have this freedom to ban people or apps (which they seem to, under the first amendment), do you think they should? Have social media sites become de facto public spaces? Does banning them only create the false sense that extremism has gone away (even if it's just being pushed further underground)?

Interested to hear your thoughts.
I agree they should. I will certainly not miss Trump, but some people have said way worse and they are still active, like racist or extrémists

But I think it should be the justice who should decide who must be banned, because the media leader could use and abuse their power to censor their opponents or their competition, or shut whoever they want just because they dont agree

The other question is, : how can you possibly moderate hundreds millions of accounts ?
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Old January 15th, 2021, 05:13 AM   #35
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Default Re: What kind of freedom should tech companies have to ban users and apps?

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Not familiar with the facts surrounding the gay author guy on Facebook, but based on your account that sounds like something the gay author should take up in court.

I've never seen any ads for gambling on Twitter or really anywhere else online so I can't speak to that. Gambling is illegal in the state where I live but it is legal in the states to the north and east and I have seen billboards for casinos in those states. I assume that even though gambling is illegal here it isn't illegal to advertise for casinos where it is. I never gave it much thought.
Google and Facebook ads work on location. Because it is a pay per-click arrangement, you want the highest conversion rates fron views to clicks to successful actions, like purchases, sign-ups etc. That's why ad campaigns on those platforms are very effective

Now, advertising gambling is illegal here, yet it us very prevalent online. The only companies of addiction business that really respect the regulations are tobacco companies.

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So under this plan, the only prohibited content on social media sites would be illegal content? What about, say, pornography, which many social media sites ban (but is not illegal)? Even physical public spaces are still subject to “decency laws” (i.e. it’s not illegal to drink alcohol, but it is to do so in public). Would there be similar restrictions in “digital public spaces”?
Well, on most social media minors can join, so posting it there could be punishable. Here if you distribute porn to minors, you can be punished. About drinking, if you carry in public a picture of you drinking or being wasted, is that against the law? Nope, unless you are in some prohibitionist country.

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Old January 15th, 2021, 02:22 PM   #36
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Default Re: What kind of freedom should tech companies have to ban users and apps?

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Now, advertising gambling is illegal here, yet it us very prevalent online. The only companies of addiction business that really respect the regulations are tobacco companies.
What do you do about sports? Many uk football teams are sponsored by gambling companies (some even owned by them) loads of advertising for it on shirts, around stadiums and even in naming of stadiums. And during commercials of sports we get adverts for betting. And quite abit of fast food and alcohol sponsorship

And there are sports that still have tobacco companies advertising (just using other parts of there company or colouring in outlines)


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Old January 15th, 2021, 05:40 PM   #37
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I have a unique take on this:

On principle, I don’t believe people’s sociological and psychological need meet and talk to people (for personal or professional reasons) should be considered within the realm of “private sector - for profit”.

I think SOME websites and apps can be considered private sector when it is clear they’re selling a physical good or service.

But for websites and/or apps, (including web hosting services), whose purpose is to discuss ideological ideas, religious beliefs, political theories, that needs to be considered a “digital public square”.

Hi, I get what you are saying, we need to protect free speech even if we don't like what is said and\or the people who are saying it.

Are you saying Donald Trump should not have been given a lifetime ban by twitter and other digital public square services? Or maybe you are saying everything he said upto that point was OK, but the crossed the line.

What I have learned so far about Twitter is that they have very complex analytics programs that watch what happens when anybody twitters. They watch the ripple effect of what comes after, thus they were seeing a huge buildup in Trump supporters that were more-or-less predicting something bad might happen on 6\1, but since nothing like that had happened before, they could not predict if anything bad would happen, or if it did, now bad it might be. After 1/6, they did not immediately ban Trump, so he continued to tweet more of the same old BS, and guess what Twitter analytical data saw? The data saw the same pattern that led upto 1/6, so they decided not to wait for it to happen a second time. Clearly those who stormed the Capitol consider it a huge success and Donald Trump was tweeting how much he loved them. And if no other reason, Twitter did not want to go down with Donald Trump. If there had been another event as bad or worse, there would be a good chance legal action would be taken against Twitter, or that very restrictive laws would be passed to limit Twitter ability

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Old January 15th, 2021, 06:01 PM   #38
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Default Re: What kind of freedom should tech companies have to ban users and apps?

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What do you do about sports? Many uk football teams are sponsored by gambling companies (some even owned by them) loads of advertising for it on shirts, around stadiums and even in naming of stadiums. And during commercials of sports we get adverts for betting. And quite abit of fast food and alcohol sponsorship

And there are sports that still have tobacco companies advertising (just using other parts of there company or colouring in outlines)
Well, it it's legal in UK, display it like that in UK, in case of countries like Serbia, I'd fine both the advertising company and the company wanting advertisement.

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Old January 15th, 2021, 07:13 PM   #39
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Default Re: What kind of freedom should tech companies have to ban users and apps?

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Well, it it's legal in UK, display it like that in UK, in case of countries like Serbia, I'd fine both the advertising company and the company wanting advertisement.
So would that mean banning anything to do with the teams, such as matches, staff, players and anyone else wearing one of those teams kits from appearing on anything in Serbia (including Serbian football players) such as social media and tv


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Old January 15th, 2021, 09:33 PM   #40
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So would that mean banning anything to do with the teams, such as matches, staff, players and anyone else wearing one of those teams kits from appearing on anything in Serbia (including Serbian football players) such as social media and tv
Only advertisements, when someone pays for online/TV/billboard space to advertise their stuff. Sports matches aren't censored that way.

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