patriotism

[green]

ok so do you think it is right for someone to join another countries defence forces? so like I am australian, would you look down on me for joining say the british or american defence forces? what are your thoughts on patriotism.

[embers]

That has nothing to do with being a patriot. And no, I wouldn't look down on you for joining another country's defence force. Patriotism, to me, seems like quite a stupid concept really.

[maestro15]

I think that once you join a defense force, then you are presenting yourself in a more patriotic manner. After all, you would not just join the military for the purposes of Money, but for helping your very own state.
Thus, you would be appreciated rather than looked down upon.!

[Severus Snape]

Patriotism is just a flowery way to say nationalism without the negative connotation.

[Sugaree]

Patriotism = nationalism. Every country has some form or degree of it. I see no problem with someone joining their own country's defense force(s), nor do I see it as a problem to join another country's defense force(s). If you have pride in your country, good for you; just don't forget that your big nation is just a clump of floating dirt that has been lucky to survive without sinking into the nearest large mass of water.

[benjones1769]

i prob would look down on it unless you gave up yur citizenship and then became a citizen of the country that youre joining the military in
not sure they would even let u join unless u were a citizen
regardless, joining the military is a great thing...a great way to show patriotism
def not for everybody (not me for sure) but i respect those who do

[Sage]

regardless, joining the military is a great thing...a great way to show patriotism

Yes, what better way to show your love for a country than to learn how to become a highly-trained murderer.

[Severus Snape]

Yes, what better way to show your love for a country than to learn how to become a highly-trained murderer.

Heh, yeah...sad state of affairs we're in.

[russsh]

so why don't you wanna join the ADF?

[green]

Sage that's just uncalled for. My family has lots of defense force members in it. It's people like you that would hate on the military then go and want them to defend you if your country was invaded. People don't join to kill. They join so that the civvilians stay safe and so their country is protected. So don't go saying things like that when people are willing to die to keep their country safe

[Sage]

It's people like you that would hate on the military then go and want them to defend you if your country was invaded.

Unfortunately for you I live in the real world in a developed nation that has no realistic chance of being invaded. If you think the military is keeping you same from anything right now, I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but any and all of the military operations the United States is involved in at this time are pathetically useless and only creating more enemies.

[green]

The US has made mistakes. Iraq was a mistake. Afghanistan has a real reason for the Australians, US, British and all the other forces to be there. Afghanistan was a country that was being oppressed by the Taliban. While their state of living hasnt increased as off yet it will in the future. Afghanistan is the worlds largest producer of opium. A drug. The funds of which are used to fuel terrorism, arms dealing and a variety of crimes. Even if your country doesnt have a chance of being invaded you should still show some fucking respect to the people who would protect you if you were invaded. I guess unless you have had a family member be in fucking Iraq for six months during the time when people were blowing up fucking military bases, you wouldnt understand. I am proud to have a father who makes a real contribution to society. Unlike you who seems to spend a lot of time judging everyone who doesnt act like you. You seem to think your some sort of genius who has everything right. your not. so stop acting like a pompous prick and make a contribution to society.

[Sage]

Afghanistan was a country that was being oppressed by the Taliban. While their state of living hasnt increased as off yet it will in the future.
No it won't. The moment we leave that country is just going to fall apart again and I fail to see why we need to spend untold trillions of dollars every year in militarizing these pathetic backwater states.

Afghanistan is the worlds largest producer of opium. A drug. The funds of which are used to fuel terrorism, arms dealing and a variety of crimes.
I'm not going to go too far down this tangent, but you might also want to take note that the drug policies started under Reagan in the United States are largely responsible for the massive scale of the modern day drug trade. The harder we crack down on those things the more easily groups like the Taliban and the Mexican drug cartel can profit from them.

Even if your country doesnt have a chance of being invaded you should still show some fucking respect to the people who would protect you if you were invaded.
But even if we were going to be invaded, there's no reason they couldn't defend the country by, you know, staying here, instead of butchering thugs in the Middle East and getting sandy in all our shiny war machines.

I guess unless you have had a family member be in fucking Iraq for six months during the time when people were blowing up fucking military bases, you wouldnt understand.
Yes, it'd take one mighty personal bias for me to even consider your side of the argument legitimate. Now we're making some headway.

I am proud to have a father who makes a real contribution to society.
The people we murder in the desert overseas are of no threat to us, and the stability of their useless state is not our problem. Carrying a gun and a flag and waving them around over there doesn't contribute in any positive sense to any society.

Unlike you who seems to spend a lot of time judging everyone who doesnt act like you. You seem to think your some sort of genius who has everything right. your not. so stop acting like a pompous prick and make a contribution to society.
Don't project your bigotry onto me. I will never understand why everyone with a hard-on for the military can get on a pulpit and spew endless bullshit about how much they love our freedom and liberty but the moment I express any disagreeance with the actions of our military, shit hits the fan.

Soldiers aren't superheroes, and so long as they obey orders I don't agree with, I won't support them. Deal with it.

[green]

If you look at the statistics of the country that I am talking about (Australia) we are not as involved in combat as you might think. Our special forces are yes, but our regular infantrymen are tasked with guarding the rebuilding of things like hospitals, schools and the groups of tradesmen sent out to teach afghani children a trade so that they can help provide for their family. Maybe the US has grown to full of its own need to intrude on other countries but what the Australian military is doing is going to help the country. Even if only some families get their life improved I would be more proud of that then us going in killing as many taliban as we can ( not that i dont think that the taliban should not be brought to a point were they are not a threat). And when we leave we will hopefully have left behind the soldiers that we have trained to look after their country.

[Amnesiac]

If you look at the statistics of the country that I am talking about (Australia) we are not as involved in combat as you might think. Our special forces are yes, but our regular infantrymen are tasked with guarding the rebuilding of things like hospitals, schools and the groups of tradesmen sent out to teach afghani children a trade so that they can help provide for their family. Maybe the US has grown to full of its own need to intrude on other countries but what the Australian military is doing is going to help the country. Even if only some families get their life improved I would be more proud of that then us going in killing as many taliban as we can ( not that i dont think that the taliban should not be brought to a point were they are not a threat). And when we leave we will hopefully have left behind the soldiers that we have trained to look after their country.

As a fellow Australian, I strongly disagree with my country's decision to get involved in Afghanistan. Unfortunately, thanks to our strong ties with the U.S. (The ANZUS treaty, specifically), we were forced into this conflict. Even if it's only 500 troops, Australian involvement in Afghanistan is a waste of lives and money.

Humanitarian efforts should be left up to the United Nations and other multinational peacekeeping forces. As long as the West continues to wage war in the Middle East, conditions in nations like Afghanistan will not improve. The best thing we could do for them is pack up, go home and increase domestic security.

[Sage]

If you look at the statistics of the country that I am talking about (Australia) we are not as involved in combat as you might think.
I don't care. I'm against any involvement. It's not our problem.

And when we leave we will hopefully have left behind the soldiers that we have trained to look after their country.
But that isn't going to happen, and even if it did, it would take far too many years to achieve. We can't stay in the middle east indefinitely- We don't have the funds to do so, fuck, we don't even have the funds to be there right now. It is not our duty to police the entire third world, and frankly, I'm sick of this american-exceptionalist mentality that's deluded far too many people in my generation into throwing their lives away to a war that is completely and utterly in vain.

For every life you think we've saved there, we've ruined multiple others- and those people whose lives we ruined grow to hate us. Terrorist organizations see a large influx of new recruits every time we attack them, and simply by staying there we make them hate us more and more. We've been in Afghanistan since 2001, and while people may have welcomed us there initially or not, it's been ten fucking years and things haven't improved.

As much as I'd love it if we were able to stabilize the rest of the world and put an end to famine, poverty, and lawlessness, we can't do it. We don't have the money, we don't have the time, we don't have the power. Stick to your "ideals" all you like, but the reality remains that we are not making any positive difference there in the long run and our prolonged military presence in the rest of the world only hurts us and everyone else.

This is a battle that is neither winnable nor worth fighting.

[green]

war is not right yes, i agree. I believe that Australian defence forces can create a safer environment for the Afghan People. Sage do you agree with wwII? or was that wrong to.

[Amnesiac]

war is not right yes, i agree. I believe that Australian defence forces can create a safer environment for the Afghan People. Sage do you agree with wwII? or was that wrong to.

The United States did not get involved in World War II until the conflict became a direct threat to their national security, and rightfully so. However, Nazi Germany's sheer power and aggressive behavior were a threat in the first place.

The point is, unless the circumstances are extraordinary, countries should not stick their noses into the business of other regions. I don't care if it's Libya or Iraq. It's not our problem. Yes, that sounds cruel, but I'm sorry, we can't go around spending lives to help every nation in turmoil.

[Sage]

I believe that Australian defence forces can create a safer environment for the Afghan People.
History contradicts you. No matter how safe you think we've made Afghanistan (not very, I'd argue) the moment we leave it's all going to fall apart again and we do not have the ability to stay there forever.

Sage do you agree with wwII?
This isn't World War 2. If you had a point to make with that, spare me the pointless rhetoric and make it.

[green]

why do you keep talking about americans. Im talking about Australia, you know the country with the kangaroos and drop bears. Australia has been threatened due to terrorism and we should defend our countries interests.

[Sage]

why do you keep talking about americans. Im talking about Australia, you know the country with the kangaroos and drop bears. Australia has been threatened due to terrorism and we should defend our countries interests.

American and Australian are interchangeable in this case as nobody is benefiting from military occupation of the middle east. Being there only makes more people hate your country and those people become terrorists.

[Amnesiac]

why do you keep talking about americans. Im talking about Australia, you know the country with the kangaroos and drop bears. Australia has been threatened due to terrorism and we should defend our countries interests.

No, we haven't. The United States was, and they pulled us into it using the ANZUS treaty.

Terrorism is impossible to defeat anyway, it's widespread and isolated into small groups – thousands of them. There will always be terrorists. It's best to increase domestic security instead. Going into other countries is just a waste of blood and money. What, are we going to invade Saudi Arabia, Libya, Indonesia and Cuba too? They have terrorists.

[Sage]

No, we haven't. The United States was, and they pulled us into it using the ANZUS treaty.

Terrorism is impossible to defeat anyway, it's widespread and isolated into small groups – thousands of them. There will always be terrorists. It's best to increase domestic security instead. Going into other countries is just a waste of blood and money. What, are we going to invade Saudi Arabia, Libya, Indonesia and Cuba too? They have terrorists.

Don't forget our own domestic terrorists, and terrorists in completely developed first world nations.

[green]

No one really is making a huge terrorist campaign against Australia, Australians have been killed by terrorists and things that are in australias interests have been hit which is why we want to try and make it harder for terrorists to make attacks. I dont even get why you hate on the people who fight for their country. they make the decision to join but they dont make the decisions about who they fight. Most of the time people in the army will agree that war is wrong but its not going to stop anytime soon. I have no problem in you not agreeing with the war in afghanistan or the politicians who make the decisions but i just do not agree with people hating on defence personal because they want to do somthing for their country. Anyway this thread has become so pointless because of the arguement thats gone on that it may as well be deleted cuz i doubt im going to get any more usefull insight.

[Sage]

No one really is making a huge terrorist campaign against Australia, Australians have been killed by terrorists and things that are in australias interests have been hit which is why we want to try and make it harder for terrorists to make attacks.
You do that by improving national security and defense at home, not riding a legion of tanks into the desert and blowing shit up.

I dont even get why you hate on the people who fight for their country.
Because they're not fighting for everything. The entire conflict has no purpose and whatever mission goal they have is unattainable. We're not capable of fixing their sorry broken state. We have neither the time nor the money.

they make the decision to join but they dont make the decisions about who they fight.
So they just accept that they'll be ordered to murder people without any consideration as to who they murder or what it'll accomplish. Dandy!

Most of the time people in the army will agree that war is wrong but its not going to stop anytime soon.
That's right! War's not going to stop because
THEY KEEP FIGHTING IN THEM AND ELECTING POLITICIANS THAT WAGE THEM

I have no problem in you not agreeing with the war in afghanistan or the politicians who make the decisions but i just do not agree with people hating on defence personal because they want to do somthing for their country.
If you KNOW the decisions made by politicians are WRONG, then DON'T SUPPORT IT. If you don't agree with a war, then don't fight! Don't enlist! Don't throw your life away to some arbitrary waste of time and money!

Anyway this thread has become so pointless because of the arguement thats gone on that it may as well be deleted cuz i doubt im going to get any more usefull insight.
One can lead a horse to water...

[Amnesiac]

Don't forget our own domestic terrorists, and terrorists in completely developed first world nations.

Of course. Hell, if we wanted to eradicate terrorism, we'd have to invade almost every country in the world.

No one really is making a huge terrorist campaign against Australia, Australians have been killed by terrorists and things that are in australias interests have been hit which is why we want to try and make it harder for terrorists to make attacks.

Which is why you increase domestic security, like at airports and other ports of entry.

I dont even get why you hate on the people who fight for their country. they make the decision to join but they dont make the decisions about who they fight. Most of the time people in the army will agree that war is wrong but its not going to stop anytime soon. I have no problem in you not agreeing with the war in afghanistan or the politicians who make the decisions but i just do not agree with people hating on defence personal because they want to do somthing for their country. Anyway this thread has become so pointless because of the arguement thats gone on that it may as well be deleted cuz i doubt im going to get any more usefull insight.

Speaking for myself, I don't hate Australian soldiers. No, they're doing a fine job. I just strongly disagree with how Labor and the Liberals are handling this war – I watched Gillard's speech to a joint session of Congress last week, and she was sucking dick the entire time. I find it sad that Australia is losing its sense of independence to help the United States' ridiculous and unnecessary campaigns into the Middle East. The lives of Australian soldiers are being taken to fight an undefined and incredibly flexible enemy that is virtually undefeatable and presents no direct threat to the Australian mainland.

[MadManWithaBox]

I'm patriotic to a point. If I didn't have my mental health history, I'd like to join the military.

[Sith Lord 13]

Patriotism is just a flowery way to say nationalism without the negative connotation.

Patriotism = nationalism.

No, it's not. Nationalism is an unwavering pride in a given piece of land. Patriotism is pride in your country, especially your form of government as it exists now. It can look up to its roots, but it's really about the here and now. If I were patriotic, I would take pride in the fact America is a democracy and that I support its ideals (if not its execution) Patriotism is different in that you could always move to a new country to support or do something to change the form of governance in your country if you don't support it.

[Severus Snape]

Both presuppose pride in a national identity,

[Virtual Guy]

I would not look down on you

[Sage]

No, it's not. Nationalism is an unwavering pride in a given piece of land. Patriotism is pride in your country,
Notice how the only difference between the two is connotation, just like someone already said.

If I were patriotic, I would take pride in the fact America is a democracy
There's nothing democratic about a country wherein the bulk of politicians on both sides are bought by corporate interest.

[green]

I dont care if politicians are bought, in a democracy you can vote for who YOU want in power. Its your fault if you dont make the right decision ;P

[Sage]

I dont care if politicians are bought, in a democracy you can vote for who YOU want in power. Its your fault if you dont make the right decision ;P

Your vote doesn't mean much when so-and-so gets a wealth of campaign money from Walmart or News Corp, and your vote doesn't mean very much when virtually everyone on the ballot is only working to appease their investors and not their people. You fail to understand that when incredible sums of corporate wealth are involved, there is no democracy. Democracy is about people, and corporations are not people.

Believe in ideals all you like, but regardless of how much you insist we live in a fair world, we do not. The sooner you get your feet on the ground and your head out of the clouds, the better.

[Sith Lord 13]

Both presuppose pride in a national identity,

Patriotism don't presuppose it. Patriotism is earned, not demanded.

Notice how the only difference between the two is connotation, just like someone already said.

No. A country has nothing to do with land. A country is about its governance and its ideals.

There's nothing democratic about a country wherein the bulk of politicians on both sides are bought by corporate interest.

True. I was presupposing America worked the way it was intended to and for its ideals,rather than it's implementation.

[Sage]

A country has nothing to do with land.

A country is a geographical region considered to be the physical territory of a sovereign state, or of a smaller, or former, political division within a geographical region. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country)

[Sith Lord 13]

I concede to have apparently been using the wrong word. I meant nation. (I have apparently been misinformed in my college level international relations course. I should have done further research first.)