Government "fairness" creates monopolies. Here is the evidence.

[Phantom]

This is for those who have actually made this statement (you know who you are), "without government regulating business, global corporations and monopolies would dominate the market" We've all heard this argument countless times, and countless times libertarians and republicans have been telling you. GOVERNMENT LEGISLATES COMPETITION OUT OF THE MARKET. Government IS the source of global corporations and monopolies. Well here's the proof. It's just 1 example, but it says all that needs to be said.



UNION-TRIBUNE EDITORIAL (San Diego, CA)
Cartel 1, fairness 0

Congress helps milk gang thwart outsider

December 15, 2006

Ready for a government horror story? Here's a doozy.

A massive milk cartel now holds sway over American supermarkets, thanks to a maze of regulations enacted during the Depression to keep struggling dairy farmers in business. These anachronistic, anti-competitive rules cost U.S. consumers at least $1.5 billion a year.

But instead of accepting a tidy guaranteed profit by staying within the system, a Riverside County dairyman, Hein Hettinga, saw a better way - one that would give consumers a much fairer deal.

Almost all dairy farmers ship their raw milk to plants for conversion into jugs of milk, ice cream, cheese and other dairy products, accepting a fixed, government-set payment in return. Hettinga realized that if he cut out the middleman and owned both dairies and production facilities, he could provide much cheaper milk operating outside the federal system. "Producer-handlers" willing to risk free-market competition were specifically exempted from the 1937 federal milk-price support law.

And so beginning in the early 1990s, Hettinga built a network of dairies from California to Texas and set up two processing plants in Yuma, Ariz. By 2002, his Sarah Farms milk - at least 30 cents cheaper per gallon than price-support milk - was a hugely popular fixture at Costco, Sam's Club and other grocers in Southern California and Arizona.

So what did Hettinga's rivals do: Upgrade and streamline their own operations? Pursue new efficiencies and innovations? Go the "producer-handler" route so their milk also would be cheaper?

Nope. They asked Congress to punish Hettinga for the sin of not joining in their rigged game - and, according to a recent Washington Post report, got their way without a single hearing in the House or Senate.

The article detailed a three-year, multimillion- dollar lobbying and campaign contribution blitz by the dairy cartel. With key assists from Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., Sen. Jon Kyl, R-Ariz., and Rep. Devin Nunes, R-Tulare, the blitz paid off this spring with the passage of a bill that forced Hettinga to give much or most of his profits to one of the cartel's regional pools - in other words, to his competitors. A dairy industry lobbyist openly bragged to the Post that he helped write the measure.

Even by the debased standards of Washington politics, this stinks. A cartel that's been ripping off people for decades finally faces a little competition and squashes it by buying off Congress. Talk about banana republic politics.

The sliver of hope for justice in this matter resides in Article 1 of the U.S. Constitution. It forbids "bills of attainder" - legislative acts that single out individuals or groups for punishment without benefit of trial. Hettinga is suing the federal government on these constitutional grounds. Given that none of the arrogant milk industry lobbyists or their hired lawmakers bothered to pretend that the Milk Regulatory Equity Act of 2006 had any goal besides harming the maverick dairyman from Corona, he appears to have a case.


Discuss

[redcar]

i dont know the full legal position on monopolies and all that jazz in America, but in Ireland monopolies are not allowed to exist. this also applies to European Union countries. also any situation which a company takes over another that could result in teh company having a monopoly are forbidon. for example Ryanair, an Irish airline, proposed to purchase the state airline Aer Lingus. the EU would not allow this to happen, because it would have resulted in Ryanair control.

so from my experience, government fairness do prevent monopolies.

[Phantom]

i dont know the full legal position on monopolies and all that jazz in America, but in Ireland monopolies are not allowed to exist. this also applies to European Union countries. also any situation which a company takes over another that could result in teh company having a monopoly are forbidon. for example Ryanair, an Irish airline, proposed to purchase the state airline Aer Lingus. the EU would not allow this to happen, because it would have resulted in Ryanair control.

so from my experience, government fairness do prevent monopolies.
In the US the government creates monopolys not prevents them.

Now for the EU controlling what businesses can buy and cannot buy is VERY restrictive and unfair by my opinion. You do know that if Aer Lingus didn't want to sell their business, they don't have to, they do not need a government telling them they should not sell their business.

There is no such thing as a monopoly. Call me crazy.

The Free market is all about who benefits the consumer the most.
If some giant corporation owned all the business in say, milk (like the article)
you would normally think thats unfair because the people are FORCED to buy it (which in itself is not true). Some other small company could come around (like that guy) and figure out a better way to do it. Or offer better service.

The free market is also about competition. Take the computer industry. In video cards. When the free market competes and functions as it should (without government control) company's naturally compete. This benefits the consumer, as they compete for quality products and lower prices.
Now say the government in the name of "fairness" installed just NVIDIA as the sole producer. What would you get? Shit service, much higher prices and crappy products.

[Whisper]

In the United States there iligal
In Canada there alowed and in some cases backed by the government

our gvernment is VERY liberal aka BIG government ALLOT of social programs etc...

In America for the most part the governments always been very Conservative aka small govrnment not as many scial programs or government intervention and control

least thats what I was told in Social

[redcar]

Now for the EU controlling what businesses can buy and cannot buy is VERY restrictive and unfair by my opinion. You do know that if Aer Lingus didn't want to sell their business, they don't have to, they do not need a government telling them they should not sell their business.
its not unfair. it actually makes it more fairer. if there one company holds a monopoly on the market, then they dictate what prices to charge people, and because there is no competition they have no need to compete for the best price, and hence best price for the consumer.

i study economics as part of my degree, and monopolies are worse for the consumser. therefore the EU are protecting the consumer.

now on the Aer Lingus thing, i only used that as an example. Aer Lingus was up until a few months ago a semi-state body, ie the government was the majority shareholder. it was then privatised, the govenment sold it off. Ryanair then wanted to buy out the new shareholders however they refused to sell. but the point is even if they had wanted to sell the EU would have blocked the sale because it would have resulted in Ryanair gaining a monopoly in the Irish market. and trust me Ryanair having a monopoly would not be good.

[Phantom]

its not unfair. it actually makes it more fairer. if there one company holds a monopoly on the market, then they dictate what prices to charge people, and because there is no competition they have no need to compete for the best price, and hence best price for the consumer.

i study economics as part of my degree, and monopolies are worse for the consumser. therefore the EU are protecting the consumer.

now on the Aer Lingus thing, i only used that as an example. Aer Lingus was up until a few months ago a semi-state body, ie the government was the majority shareholder. it was then privatised, the govenment sold it off. Ryanair then wanted to buy out the new shareholders however they refused to sell. but the point is even if they had wanted to sell the EU would have blocked the sale because it would have resulted in Ryanair gaining a monopoly in the Irish market. and trust me Ryanair having a monopoly would not be good. It is unfair. The government cannot control what private businesses do, thats like saying the government should be able to control who you talk to.

Ok, now lets think for a second.
How do businesses make money? They benefit the people, low prices, good service, quality products.

I would argue that the more liberal economic stance, stems from lack of understanding of the market.

There is NO such thing as a monopoly that is NOT government instituted.
You can't name a single one. Nope not even Microsoft is one. They have to work hard on quality products and leading innovation in the market to keep their lead. Look at the 360.
How do you think Microsoft got up that high? They had to start somewhere.
Why should they be punished and heavily taxed and perceived as "evil" just because they are smart and have been successfully.

Now I say again there is no such thing as a monopoly.
The only way that could happen was if a company was extremely efficient and innovative. And just completely destroyed the others in quality, service, and low prices. And even if that somehow happened why would it be bad?

Now this brings me to another topic. Why are you FORCED to buy anything!!!
You make it seem as if some company had a complete monopoly on some product (lets say apple juice lol) why would you even buy it if the prices are super high and the juice tastes like shit!!!! What would stop some other company from coming along and making better juice at cheaper prices.

This whole situation would never happen anyway because there is no such thing as a complete monopoly anyway.

Now would you please give me an example of a complete monopoly thats NOT government instituted that has complete dominance in a certain market even when they have shit products. And why couldn't another company come along and beat out the other company?

In the United States there iligal
In Canada there alowed and in some cases backed by the government

our gvernment is VERY liberal aka BIG government ALLOT of social programs etc...

In America for the most part the governments always been very Conservative aka small govrnment not as many scial programs or government intervention and control

least thats what I was told in Social That was true 20 years ago. Its not today :(

[Maverick]

Now this brings me to another topic. Why are you FORCED to buy anything!!!
You make it seem as if some company had a complete monopoly on some product (lets say apple juice lol) why would you even buy it if the prices are super high and the juice tastes like shit!!!!
That's a bad analogy because apple juice isn't a necessity. If one business controlled all the airlines in the usa and prices were sky high, and I need to fly to Los Angeles, what choice to I have? You may not be "forced" to buy anything but when you need to buy something and aren't given another choice, then I'm left with no choice but to pay the huge price because thats the only company.

[Phantom]

That's a bad analogy because apple juice isn't a necessity. If one business controlled all the airlines in the usa and prices were sky high, and I need to fly to Los Angeles, what choice to I have? You may not be "forced" to buy anything but when you need to buy something and aren't given another choice, then I'm left with no choice but to pay the huge price because thats the only company. First of all there would always be more company's to fly from.
But just for the sake of argument lets say that one company owned it all. What would stop some other small company from coming along and starting another one? They would make huge bucks because everyone would fly with them because they don't charge so much.
Anyways even if a company had a monopoly they wouldn't raise prices, its bad for business.

[redcar]

It is unfair. The government cannot control what private businesses do, thats like saying the government should be able to control who you talk to.

Ok, now lets think for a second.
How do businesses make money? They benefit the people, low prices, good service, quality products.

very simply without goverenment intervention, businesses would become very very unscrupleous and screw the consumer out of money.

you really havent grasped or studied up on them enough, but you would see that they are bad. Anthony had a good example with airlines, there are many routes in Europe anyway that only have one airline working them. thats a monopoly of the route. that means the company knows that people travel this route, and that they can only get the service from them, hence they can charge higher prices because they know no one else will be able to offer a better one.

the more competition in a market the better, better for consumers, and that is why its good that the government are there to prevent monopolies and even oligoloplies developing.

[Phantom]

very simply without goverenment intervention, businesses would become very very unscrupleous and screw the consumer out of money.

you really havent grasped or studied up on them enough, but you would see that they are bad. Anthony had a good example with airlines, there are many routes in Europe anyway that only have one airline working them. thats a monopoly of the route. that means the company knows that people travel this route, and that they can only get the service from them, hence they can charge higher prices because they know no one else will be able to offer a better one.

the more competition in a market the better, better for consumers, and that is why its good that the government are there to prevent monopolies and even oligoloplies developing. How would you get screwed out of money? You do know that I still support laws preventing them from lieing and things like child labor, but little else.

I still don't understand how you would get screwed out of money? If the damn car is to expensive don't buy it! If you don't think the extended warranty is not worth it don't buy it! Take your business else where.
I hope you do know that businesses want to make a profit, so they would not screw people over or else they would get no business!

But you don't seem to understand that there will always be more than one company in a market such as airlines. So it is in the best interest of the company to please you.

You say you have studied economics? How do you not know such simple things. The free markets always always are better.
The US because as strong as it did because of a major part to our economic system. The market almost never needs government intervention, except in cases of pure fraud and theft.

You also still haven't been able to name a full monopoly thats not government instituted. Also the people are FORCED to buy this product there is a monopoly on.

[redcar]

How would you get screwed out of money? You do know that I still support laws preventing them from lieing and things like child labor, but little else.
this has nothing to do with child labour and all that jazz. absolutly nothing. you really need to do some homework on this subject.

ok i'll use this example, i am the only supplier of say electricity in the market. now which way would i charge my customers,

A) offer a competitive price that would be equal to that of other similiar countries where there is more than one supplier of electricity

or

B) charge a price that means that i get a nice profit, because the consumer has no option but to get their electricity from me

companies in a monopoly situation are able to charge higher prices than they would be able to in a competitive market. and therefore they are able to screw the consumer.

you really need to study up on this because i know what i am talking about, i study Commerce in college.

But you don't seem to understand that there will always be more than one company in a market such as airlines. So it is in the best interest of the company to please you.

what about electricity supply? in Ireland there is one company.
what about telecommunications? the high entry costs to get into these industries is a very big deterent.

You say you have studied economics? How do you not know such simple things. The free markets always always are better.
preventing a monopoly from occuring is not stopping a free market. ok which is better, having two airlines competing to offer the best price, or one airline making supernormal profits?

You also still haven't been able to name a full monopoly thats not government instituted. Also the people are FORCED to buy this product there is a monopoly on.
because i have had a long day, i cant be bothered doing some research. but off the top of my head i could name Ryanair, an Irish airline, it has a monopoly on several routes out of Cork and Dublin airports.

[Phantom]

this has nothing to do with child labour and all that jazz. absolutly nothing. you really need to do some homework on this subject.

ok i'll use this example, i am the only supplier of say electricity in the market. now which way would i charge my customers,

A) offer a competitive price that would be equal to that of other similiar countries where there is more than one supplier of electricity

or

B) charge a price that means that i get a nice profit, because the consumer has no option but to get their electricity from me

companies in a monopoly situation are able to charge higher prices than they would be able to in a competitive market. and therefore they are able to screw the consumer. Well first of all you would never be the ONLY supplier, but for arguments sake......
Another company would come along offer fair prices and blow you away.



you really need to study up on this because i know what i am talking about, i study Commerce in college....


what about electricity supply? in Ireland there is one company.
what about telecommunications? the high entry costs to get into these industries is a very big deterent. LOL! I can't help but laugh. Those are all GOVERNMENT INSTITUTED MONOPOLY'S. So much for your little "fair" government.


preventing a monopoly from occurring is not stopping a free market. ok which is better, having two airlines competing to offer the best price, or one airline making supernormal profits? OR a government instituted airline monopoly.....
Anyways there will always be competition.


because i have had a long day, i cant be bothered doing some research. but off the top of my head i could name Ryanair, an Irish airline, it has a monopoly on several routes out of Cork and Dublin airports. I think you can't find any :D well besides your "fair" government institute ones.

[redcar]

Well first of all you would never be the ONLY supplier, but for arguments sake......
Another company would come along offer fair prices and blow you away.
how do you know you would never be the only supplier, in Ireland there is a telecommunications company, now owned by the governemt, that own all the telephone lines in the country, and any other company that wants to enter the market with telephone services have to rent the lines from this company, hence they are the only supplier.

plus the entry costs to the market are too high for a competitor to enter the market.

ok when it comes to Ireland you need to realise that we are a young country just over 70 years old. and when we were founded the government had to set up these companies because there was no one else able to do so. it is only in the last 15 years that our economy has boomed and become one of the strongest in Europe.

we do have a very fair government and fair one at European level. thats why monopoloies are prevented.

OR a government instituted airline monopoly.....
and where is that? because we dont have one.

I think you can't find any :biggrin2: well besides your "fair" government institute ones.
its harder for me to find one because there are very few existing in the EU. but there are a number of airline routes they are monopolised by one airline, Ryanair. and this has nothing to do with government, its due to a ruthless company a cut throat CEO.

[Phantom]

[QUOTE]how do you know you would never be the only supplier, in Ireland there is a telecommunications company, now owned by the governemt, that own all the telephone lines in the country, and any other company that wants to enter the market with telephone services have to rent the lines from this company, hence they are the only supplier.

plus the entry costs to the market are too high for a competitor to enter the market. There is always more than one supplier in almost every market the government decides not to meddle with. It doesn't matter about the entry costs, there will always be people who would spend that money, maybe a CEO of another company. The returns would vastly dwarf any entry cost anyway if a company jacked up the prices already.
ok when it comes to Ireland you need to realise that we are a young country just over 70 years old. and when we were founded the government had to set up these companies because there was no one else able to do so. it is only in the last 15 years that our economy has boomed and become one of the strongest in Europe. Ok

we do have a very fair government and fair one at European level. thats why monopoloies are prevented. I didn't know you consider controlling businesses fair.


its harder for me to find one because there are very few existing in the EU. but there are a number of airline routes they are monopolised by one airline, Ryanair. and this has nothing to do with government, its due to a ruthless company a cut throat CEO.[/ Monopolizing an airline rout?? wtf is that. You must have pretty dumb navigators over there. :P

I think you can't find any because the EVIL, VILE, UNFAIR, GREEDY corporations you speak of don't exist. All the leading company's in a product got there because of great products and service. Look at Microsoft. The pinnacle of entrepreneurship.

[redcar]

monopolising an air route is where there is only one airline operating that route. i.e. between two airports. you should find out what a monopoly actually is before you start to debate it!

i can think of monopolies, they are government owned companies. the only reason that there is no other competitor is because entry costs are too high. not because the government restricts them. if anything the Irish government along with the EU are promiting new competitors because they want to get rid of monopolies. because they are bad!

i think you need to do some homework on this subject!

[Phantom]

[QUOTE]monopolising an air route is where there is only one airline operating that route. i.e. between two airports. QUOTE] LOL between two airports! Thats like saying I have monopolized the food industry because I have the only grocery story on the block!

[QUOTE]i can think of monopolies, they are government owned companies. \QUOTE] ROFL :lol:
government owned company's! That just proves my point.
O yeah and like I said entry costs are not too high when you could make 10x the profits.

[QUOTE]i think you need to do some homework on this subject!
*sigh* if only you had better things to say.
And btw you have said that about 10 fucking times now. :lol:

[redcar]

you really dont understand the concept of a monopoly do you?

ok in Ireland we have the ESB and they supply us with electricity, it is government owned. but they are not preventing any one else entering the market at all. but imagine the costs of setting up an electricity supply service? the cost would be massive, and the returns wouldnt make up the costs for a very very long time.