circumcision Matters

[LittleMonsterMike]

Ok so there a big HOOPLA going on in the UK right now of illegalizing circumcision while most are for this way some people who are against it say it take the choice away from the parent ( personal i think it's the child's choice in the first place) so my questions are
1) Do you plan to circumcise your son?
2) Do you know the Pros and Cons of circumcision?
3) What reason are you doing the circumcision for ( religious,health reason, cosmetic)?
4) What's your side of Circumcision?
5) How would you vote on the above law?

[nick]

No idea where you are coming from. There is absolutely no discussion or debate about this going on in the UK atm. People dont cut here for no reason, there is no need for any debate or legistration.

[scuba steve]

1) Do you plan to circumcise your son? No
2) Do you know the Pros and Cons of circumcision? Yes
3) What reason are you doing the circumcision for ( religious,health reason, cosmetic)? N/A
4) What's your side of Circumcision? It should only be done if your Jewish and even then I don't see the whole point. Some bitch about hygiene reasons but are you really that unhygienic in the first place to not be lazy and pull back the foreskin and apply soap?
5) How would you vote on the above law? I would vote no, I think it's a completely stupid thing to do and I don't agree with the certain cultural tradition but if someone wants it done to themselves then I franky couldn't give a fuck.

Plus there is no such legislation in procedure.

[Malcolm Tucker]

Preemptive Warning

This forum is for debates. (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=29)

This forum is not for debates. Remember to keep on topic, which I feel is better in P101. So don't let it get out of hand, fill out the survey and so forth.

[scuba steve]

Preemptive Warning

This forum is for debates. (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=29)

This forum is not for debates. Keep on topic. Mmkay?

Damn, I never even noticed it was in P101, Surely this is a debate and should be moved though?

[mikey4444]

The last entry was almost correct. Yes, there is no "burning issue question" debate going in Britain. Circumcision here is not like it is in America. It is only really practised amongst religious groups, like the Jews and Muslims. Although Muslim imiigration is on the increase in Britain, as in the rest of Europe, circumcision is still a rarity.

And long may it remain so ! It is barbaric custom and is nothing more than child mutilation. There is no proven health benefit and once done, cannot be reversed. Its also terribly painful, so why do it ?

Nature provided us with a foreskin, for good reason...leave well alone !

[LittleMonsterMike]

umm how to i change this into another thread??

[scuba steve]

umm how to i change this into another thread??

You can't you can only report the thread, which I have already done to get it moved to "Ramblings of the wise" but as of now no such result.

[LittleMonsterMike]

You can't you can only report the thread, which I have already done to get it moved to "Ramblings of the wise" but as of now no such result.

ok i just don't want to get frozen on here

[Sebastian Michaelis]

1) Do you plan to circumcise your son? Never unless he needs or wants it.
2) Do you know the Pros and Cons of circumcision? Yes
3) What reason are you doing the circumcision for ( religious,health reason, cosmetic)?
4) What's your side of Circumcision?
5) How would you vote on the above law? NO child's choice

[Malcolm Tucker]

Puberty 101 :arrow: ROTW.

[embers]

And long may it remain so ! It is barbaric custom and is nothing more than child mutilation. There is no proven health benefit and once done, cannot be reversed. Its also terribly painful, so why do it ?

Nature provided us with a foreskin, for good reason...leave well alone !

I am circumcised. Not for religious reasons (though it should be; I come from a Muslim country) but because it's in my culture and history. Does that mean I have been mutilated? That my parents are barbarians?

It's might be painful when it's done, but the child won't even remember it, considering how early in the stage of one's life it's done.

There are no proven health benefits of circumcision. So what's your problem with it? It's cultural. I don't see you picking on Muslims for not eating pork/drinking alcohol, I don't see you picking on Hindus for their bindi spots. This is hardly any different.


If I were to have children, then yes, I'd have them circumcised. It's a cultural thing that's run in my family, so why not carry it on? I see nothing wrong with it.

[Korashk]

If I were to have children, then yes, I'd have them circumcised. It's a cultural thing that's run in my family, so why not carry it on? I see nothing wrong with it.
Would you give your child a boob job?
Would you give your child a nose job?
Would you give your child facelift?

Circumcision is COSMETIC SURGERY that is typically FORCED onto BABIES. Surgery is DANGEROUS.

[embers]

Would you give your child a boob job?
Would you give your child a nose job?
Would you give your child facelift?

Circumcision is COSMETIC SURGERY that is typically FORCED onto BABIES. Surgery is DANGEROUS.

Circumcision is nothing but the mere cutting off of the foreskin. Giving babies boob jobs, nose jobs, facelifts, etc, has never been a part of any tradition as far as I know of. It carries little health risks (unless your doctor is, on a scale of 1-10, 20 in blindness, and he manages to cause damage to your penis). It doesn't exist to improve appearance, it exists as part of old culture.

If those babies really grew up to oppose it later on, they wouldn't have their children circumcised. Simples.

[Perseus]

Considering barbarians didn't practice circumcision, I don't understand this whole, "it's barbaric!" stigma. I do not find it barbaric, because it isn't. I do see issues and problems with it, but since I am circumcised, I can't overcome the mentality that it's "bad". I've tried, and I just can't. The pros and cons of this are pointless since each side will say each side is wrong and that they're pointless (the pros and cons, that is). Like Embers said, it is part of my family, so I intend to do it to my sons just because it is part of my family. There's a reason it's done at birth - you don't remember the pain. I know plenty of circumcised guys and no one can remember that pain that happened so long ago. Sure, it's dangerous, but the accident rate is low. I am biased, and I don't see myself changing opinion since I think uncircumcised penis look disgusting. This is a debate that is pointless since it is fueled by biased opinions.

[Korashk]

Circumcision is nothing but the mere cutting off of the foreskin.
Yeah, surgery.

Giving babies boob jobs, nose jobs, facelifts, etc, has never been a part of any tradition as far as I know of.
So what, you're kind of applying an appeal to tradition.

It carries little health risks (unless your doctor is, on a scale of 1-10, 20 in blindness, and he manages to cause damage to your penis).
Depends on what you mean by "little health risks" if you mean that it isn't likely to go bad, then yes. But if you mean that the risks are not that bad then you'd be wrong. Babies die every year because of circumcision complication.

It doesn't exist to improve appearance, it exists as part of old culture.
Logical fallacies are no reason to violate my self-ownership. Appearance is all circumcision does. A person's right to not have unnecessary surgery performed on them against their will trumps culture.

[embers]

This is a debate that is pointless since it is fueled by biased opinions.

Unless somebody bothers to look up the risks of circumcision (http://children.webmd.com/tc/circumcision-risks) and the medical aspects (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#Medical_aspects) and so on and decide on an opinion from there.

[Perseus]

Unless somebody bothers to look up the risks of circumcision (http://children.webmd.com/tc/circumcision-risks) and the medical aspects (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#Medical_aspects) and so on and decide on an opinion from there.

But that doesn't matter. People will still refute that. This debate has been in VT several times, and it results in the same thing - people ignoring each others data because they don't think it's true. And plus, there is a lot of conflicting things for circumcision. This is just one of the debates that just is pointless.

[embers]

A person's right to not have unnecessary surgery performed on them against their will trumps culture.

Tbh babies don't really have 'will', do they? But that's besides your point, which I get totally. But despite the fact that babies do die every year, there is a huge ratio of those that don't to those that do/are damaged by circumcision. You compare circumcision to operations like breasts implants, etc, but the surgery is less than half as complex as those, and much less dangerous. I can hardly say it's on the same scale.

What is your definition of unnecessary in this case? Some religions and cultures require you to do it. Therefore it is necessary to the people of said religions and cultures.

Edit: To be honest, nobody is going to come through this debate changed anyway. In the end circumcision is circumcision, and it is perfectly legal. Besides, contrary to what the OP said, this isn't even a hotly discussed issue in the UK... aside from their being some hint of ignorance where people think you can't jack off if you're circumcised.

[BOBBY HILL]

This just in: Cutting off woman's breasts prevents breast cancer.

[nick]

If I were to have children, then yes, I'd have them circumcised. It's a cultural thing that's run in my family, so why not carry it on? I see nothing wrong with it.

Like Embers said, it is part of my family, so I intend to do it to my sons just because it is part of my family.

This just saddens me. Its no justification whatsoever for performing pointless surgery on a new born child. As previous posters have pointed out there are risks and complications that can arise. I will never be able to understand why anyone would want bits cut off of their baby for absolutely no reason other than that their parents did the same to them. And btw, its supposed to look like that!

[Korashk]

But despite the fact that babies do die every year, there is a huge ratio of those that don't to those that do/are damaged by circumcision.
So. Fucking. What.

All of those dead babies would have been able to live their lives had they not gotten the UNNECESSARY procedure done to them.

You compare circumcision to operations like breasts implants, etc, but the surgery is less than half as complex as those, and much less dangerous. I can hardly say it's on the same scale.
Wasn't comparing their relative risk levels. I was comparing their type. All of them are cosmetic surgeries. Cosmetic surgeries are always unnecessary. You wouldn't do any of those to your child, but circumcision is okay because it's less risky?

What is your definition of unnecessary in this case? Some religions and cultures require you to do it. Therefore it is necessary to the people of said religions and cultures.
Culture can't require you to do anything and babies aren't religious. The surgery is not medically necessary in the vast, vast majority of cases where it is done.

Edit: To be honest, nobody is going to come through this debate changed anyway.
Debating isn't about changing your opponent's mind. It's about convincing the audience that you've won.

[Perseus]

This just saddens me. Its no justification whatsoever for performing pointless surgery on a new born child. As previous posters have pointed out there are risks and complications that can arise. I will never be able to understand why anyone would want bits cut off of their baby for absolutely no reason other than that their parents did the same to them. And btw, its supposed to look like that!

I know it's supposed to look like that, but like I have said, since I am circumcised, I'm used to a circumcised penis and find uncircumcised just weird looking. And I know there are risks and complications, but those are rare. If you have a doctor know what he's doing, nothing bad will happen, besides maybe an infection, but that can happen to an uncircumcised baby.

[Korashk]

I know it's supposed to look like that, but like I have said, since I am circumcised, I'm used to a circumcised penis and find uncircumcised just weird looking. And I know there are risks and complications, but those are rare. If you have a doctor know what he's doing, nothing bad will happen, besides maybe an infection, but that can happen to an uncircumcised baby.
Why does the appearance of your son's penis matter to you so much that you would forcibly remove some of it just to make him conform to your idea of attractiveness?

Plus no doctor in America is going to recommend the procedure. You can get it done, but you're going to have to ask.

[sdude]

Yeah, the whole discussion here is pointless, those who think circumcision is bad or good isn't going to change their minds here, so we might as well keep our discussions on the facts of how we deal with being one way or the other. In Canada, where I think i'm in the minority being circumcised, I kind of feel like I wish I'd been allowed to keep mine, but I don't so, I just enjoy seeing the difference on other guys and comparing stuff..viva le differance!!!

[Continuum]

I was circumcised (well, sort of (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorsal_slit)) when I was 13. It is a status quo and a symbol of manhood here in the Philippines. Personally I was against having my willy cut to the likeness of a bird. It's really the matter of Letting my child be teased of not being a man or not. It depends on him too. Boys here wait for the moment of their circumcision, and oftentimes they brag about it. It's essentially a rite of passage. They want it here anyways, I wouldn't want to bother any forced tradition.

[embers]

This just saddens me. Its no justification whatsoever for performing pointless surgery on a new born child. As previous posters have pointed out there are risks and complications that can arise. I will never be able to understand why anyone would want bits cut off of their baby for absolutely no reason other than that their parents did the same to them. And btw, its supposed to look like that!

It looks disgusting tbh, I can't imagine myself with an uncircumcised penis. They're just ugly. And it isn't for the sole reason of 'my parents did it to me'. To some it's a matter of religion, culture, tradition, etc. And as I've pointed out earlier the risks are minimal...

So. Fucking. What.

All of those dead babies would have been able to live their lives had they not gotten the UNNECESSARY procedure done to them.

I want you to find me a valid source stating just how many babies on average die each year due to circumcision. So what if it's unnecessary? People die each year due to trouser-related injuries. Wearing trousers is unnecessary, carries very low risks, and only exists to improve one's appearance. Why do you clothe your babies?

Wasn't comparing their relative risk levels. I was comparing their type. All of them are cosmetic surgeries. Cosmetic surgeries are always unnecessary. You wouldn't do any of those to your child, but circumcision is okay because it's less risky?

If cosmetic surgery became part of a religion or tradition then let them to their own customs. Circumcision should be less frowned upon because yes, it is less risky, but contrary to what you say it doesn't exist only to improve appearance. As Gaul said, in some places it's a sign of manhood. In some religions it's a symbol of purity.

Culture can't require you to do anything and babies aren't religious. The surgery is not medically necessary in the vast, vast majority of cases where it is done.

Babies shouldn't get Christmas presents, because not only are they not religious, there's a chance they can swallow something they shouldn't, or get a paper cut from the Christmas card! Let's go fucking mental and take away every tradition in a family because of the slight chance it has of harming the baby!

[Korashk]

It looks disgusting tbh, I can't imagine myself with an uncircumcised penis. They're just ugly. And it isn't for the sole reason of 'my parents did it to me'. To some it's a matter of religion, culture, tradition, etc. And as I've pointed out earlier the risks are minimal...
And you can think this. However, what gives you the right to force your preferences on your children?

I want you to find me a valid source stating just how many babies on average die each year due to circumcision.
It's estimated to be about 100 in America. (http://www.mensstudies.com/content/b64n267w47m333x0/?p=de44d0b425d142f089357920a6056e19&pi=5)

So what if it's unnecessary?
Do you not understand why performing unnecessary surgery on people against their will is a bad thing?

People die each year due to trouser-related injuries. Wearing trousers is unnecessary, carries very low risks, and only exists to improve one's appearance. Why do you clothe your babies?
False analogy. Forcing a child to wear pants is not comparable to forcing them to undergo unnecessary surgery.

However, I wouldn't force my child to wear clothes if I had one. Like you say, they're pretty much unnecessary in a developed nation. Just in public where it's against the law to be naked for some retarded reason.

If cosmetic surgery became part of a religion or tradition then let them to their own customs.
How come? Why should people be given the leeway to violate the rights of others for religious reasons or tradition. Also, quit doing this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition). Your entire "argument" relies on using that fallacy.

Circumcision should be less frowned upon because yes, it is less risky, but contrary to what you say it doesn't exist only to improve appearance. As Gaul said, in some places it's a sign of manhood. In some religions it's a symbol of purity.
Changing appearance is all that circumcision does. Doesn't matter what other attributes are falsely attributed to the procedure. If it's a sign of manhood, let the child chose it when he becomes a man if he wants it.

Babies shouldn't get Christmas presents, because not only are they not religious, there's a chance they can swallow something they shouldn't, or get a paper cut from the Christmas card! Let's go fucking mental and take away every tradition in a family because of the slight chance it has of harming the baby!
False analogy, you sure love using logical fallacies, don't you? None of these thing's that you're trying to compare to circumcision are, well, comparable.

[embers]

And you can think this. However, what gives you the right to force your preferences on your children?

That is not the reason I would have my children circumcised. (If I were to have any, which I am probably not going to.)

It's estimated to be about 100 in America. (http://www.mensstudies.com/content/b64n267w47m333x0/?p=de44d0b425d142f089357920a6056e19&pi=5)

Thanks. So now I know for certain that the number is few, thank you.

Do you not understand why performing unnecessary surgery on people against their will is a bad thing?

I'm sure babies aren't mentally developed enough to decide on such matters. It won't be against their will or for their will, because we don't know what their will is.

False analogy. Forcing a child to wear pants is not comparable to forcing them to undergo unnecessary surgery.

How is this false analogy? Why is forcing a child to change their appearance unnecessarily and with few risks involved not comparable to forcing a child to change their appearance unnecessarily and with few risks involved?

Also, quit doing this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition). Your entire "argument" relies on using that fallacy.

I'm sorry. I will now argue on another basis.

Changing appearance is all that circumcision does. Doesn't matter what other attributes are falsely attributed to the procedure. If it's a sign of manhood, let the child chose it when he becomes a man if he wants it.

Who are you to decide what attributes of it are false or not?

False analogy, you sure love using logical fallacies, don't you? None of these thing's that you're trying to compare to circumcision are, well, comparable.

I fail to see how it is a false analogy. They are both traditions that carry low risks.

[LittleMonsterMike]

[QUOTE=embers;1189506]It looks disgusting tbh, I can't imagine myself with an uncircumcised penis. They're just ugly. And it isn't for the sole reason of 'my parents did it to me'. To some it's a matter of religion, culture, tradition, etc. And as I've pointed out earlier the risks are minimal...[QUOTE=embers;1189506]

I personally think a circumcised penis looks ugly like a dryed out piece of meat with a ring of scar just nasty

[embers]

I personally think a circumcised penis looks ugly like a dryed out piece of meat with a ring of scar just nasty

Everyone to their own opinions. I imagine that circumcised people think of uncircumcised penises as nasty and vice versa.

[Perseus]

Why does the appearance of your son's penis matter to you so much that you would forcibly remove some of it just to make him conform to your idea of attractiveness?

Plus no doctor in America is going to recommend the procedure. You can get it done, but you're going to have to ask. Here comes me being a dick (no pun intended), but I will have to see it when I change him and bathe him. And since I live in the South, where circumcision is quite common, I'm sure whomever I get married to will expect the baby to be circumcised because it's the norm. And I know you have to ask. I don't see why that matters. I just really find the foreskin disgusting looking.



I personally think a circumcised penis looks ugly like a dryed out piece of meat with a ring of scar just nasty

How does it look dried out? It looks, for the most part, the exact same as an erect penis does.

[The Dark Lord]

Ok so there a big HOOPLA going on in the UK right now of illegalizing circumcision

I can assure you nobody in the UK gives a flying fuck about the legality of circumcision.

[embers]

I can assure you nobody in the UK gives a flying fuck about the legality of circumcision.

/thread

[LittleMonsterMike]

Here comes me being a dick (no pun intended), but I will have to see it when I change him and bathe him. And since I live in the South, where circumcision is quite common, I'm sure whomever I get married to will expect the baby to be circumcised because it's the norm. And I know you have to ask. I don't see why that matters. I just really find the foreskin disgusting looking.



How does it look dried out? It looks, for the most part, the exact same as an erect penis does.

for one i live in the south and no the majority are not circumcised(at least where i am) it's about fifty- fifth here. and yes you have to see your baby but why should that disgust you? it's their body not like you have to live with it it basically like saying (My child has ugly eye color lets change it even though it makes them blind) sounds stupid right, And even though the result of circumcision related complications are rare why would you even want to risk it? For Vanity? does that sound like something a good parent would do? I was born in The U.S. my father was circumcised but my mother stood up for me and chose for me not to get circumcised which is why i thank her every day for that.Would you want your child be grateful for not circumcising them? For Giving them the choice to chose when they get older (P.s. adult circumcision has less complications, less chance of mistakes, and the penis is fully grown so the foreskin removed is the right amount) maybe you should think about what your child would want I'm proud not to be circumcised and i'm grateful to my parents for giving me the choice Give your child the choice if nothing else let it be their decision

[Perseus]

for one i live in the south and no the majority are not circumcised(at least where i am) it's about fifty- fifth here. and yes you have to see your baby but why should that disgust you? it's their body not like you have to live with it it basically like saying (My child has ugly eye color lets change it even though it makes them blind) sounds stupid right, And even though the result of circumcision related complications are rare why would you even want to risk it? For Vanity? does that sound like something a good parent would do? I was born in The U.S. my father was circumcised but my mother stood up for me and chose for me not to get circumcised which is why i thank her every day for that.Would you want your child be grateful for not circumcising them? For Giving them the choice to chose when they get older (P.s. adult circumcision has less complications, less chance of mistakes, and the penis is fully grown so the foreskin removed is the right amount) maybe you should think about what your child would want I'm proud not to be circumcised and i'm grateful to my parents for giving me the choice Give your child the choice if nothing else let it be their decision

It's not really fifty-fifty, and I can say that since I live in Kennesaw. :P But anyway, I know it's a stupid argument, and I've debated it with myself multiple times because I think that the surgery looks awful, and I can't decide if I really want to do that to my child. I say that I do, but I'm internally conflicted. I want to, but I don't want to do such a horrible thing to my child. Lately, I've been leaning to no lately, but I stand up for circumcision.

[Vonn]

But overall, despite the popularity of the procedure, there isn't a single medical authority anywhere that will recommend it. Not because of any overwhelming negative side effects, but simply because it's a completely pointless medical procedure that just kind of caught on, like skintight jeans. It's medically comparable to removing a male baby's nipples at birth -- sure, they're useless, but all things considered, why add expense and/or risk if you don't have to?

Read more: http://www.cracked.com/article_18840_5-common-medical-procedures-that-secretly-arent-worth-it.html

It's like it's being done just for the sake of it. It doesn't really matter overall. The penis will still function A-OK. The boy will still get laid.

Parents' choice. The kid won't remember and most likely won't care.