Hyphenated Americans from a non-American perspective

[ShyGuyInChicago]

On the Internet I have read some words written by non-Americans (often people in European countries such as Britain or Ireland) that they feel annoyed or even offended when Americans identify themselves as being from the countries their ancestors originated in. They also take issue with Americans calling themselves Irish Americans, Italian Americans, and etc. Such people feel that if one is born in America then they are only American and nothing else and that it is illogical to identify as being Irish, for example, just because ones ancestors left Ireland for America in the 1800s. They also point out that a lot of such Americans who identify themselves as Italian, Irish, Polish, etc. often do not practice any of their ancestors traditions or speak the language of their ancestors and therefore have no business calling themselves such nationalities. In addition, in other countries whose people are mostly descended from immigrants there is no hyphenation.

I would like to no what the non-Americans who post here think about this, but anyone is welcome to post.

[Jess]

that's just stupid. you're "proud" to be American and something else. so what? I'm proud to be Chinese American. what will Chinese people think?

[Azunite]

On the Internet I have read some words written by non-Americans (often people in European countries such as Britain or Ireland) that they feel annoyed or even offended when Americans identify themselves as being from the countries their ancestors originated in. They also take issue with Americans calling themselves Irish Americans, Italian Americans, and etc. Such people feel that if one is born in America then they are only American and nothing else and that it is illogical to identify as being Irish, for example, just because ones ancestors left Ireland for America in the 1800s. They also point out that a lot of such Americans who identify themselves as Italian, Irish, Polish, etc. often do not practice any of their ancestors traditions or speak the language of their ancestors and therefore have no business calling themselves such nationalities. In addition, in other countries whose people are mostly descended from immigrants there is no hyphenation.

I would like to no what the non-Americans who post here think about this, but anyone is welcome to post.

The word "American" should actually mean Natives, because pioneers were all from Britain, France, Lowland Countries, Italy etc... Amercans are just descendants of hybrid Europeans

[Peace God]

I hate when people bitch over this (whether american of non american)...America is barely 200 years old and mass immigration only started less than a century ago. We have several different countries and ethnicities represented within our populous. As long as your not being offensive, there's many occasions when distinguishing a group of Americans by their ancestor's country/ethnicity of origin is appropriate and efficient.

[Syvelocin]

I don't have a problem with it if they're actually from where they say they are. However, I've heard people doing the following:

I can't sit here and say that I'm French because my great grandmother was French, that's a no-no. I see a lot of people doing that, which bothers me. No, you're not.

Your family is Spanish. You are born in the US. You're still Spanish, but you're also American.

Your great, great grandmother was German. Your great, great grandfather was Polish. So let's say your great grandfather is half german, half polish then. He gets married to an Austrian woman. So your grandmother is then 1/4 German, 1/4 Polish, 1/2 Austrian (keep up with me here). Your grandmother gets married to a Swedish man. Your mother is 1/8 German, 1/8 Polish, 1/4 Austrian, and 1/2 Swedish. She marries your father who is half Irish half Italian. They have you in America.

My point of this unecessarily long and confusing hypothetical situation, you're 1/16 German, 1/16 Polish, 1/4 Swedish, 1/4 Irish, 1/4 Italian, and 1/8 Austrian. This does not make you Polish. This makes you an American mutt.

The word "American" should actually mean Natives, because pioneers were all from Britain, France, Lowland Countries, Italy etc... Amercans are just descendants of hybrid Europeans

I don't agree with this actually.

I'm not native to England. But I'm English. Americans aren't native Americans, but they're still American. Yes, not in ethnicity, but the word itself suggests either ethnicity or homeland. I'm sure the majority of people living in the state of Georgia in the US are not Creek or Cherokee Native American, but they're called Georgians.

[Craig1995]

It's silly to get annoyed over something so trivial. Just because Ur great great great grandad was Scottish dosent make you Scottish if u were nether born or lived there long enough to gain nationality - if that's even possible- same principle as evolution. Just coz Ur ancestors may have been some species of ape dosent make you an ape why because Ur genes and DNA say human not ape. Lol but that's just my opinion. Dosent make me right

[Philleeep]

its all stupid you can call yourself what ever you want. in my eyes you are what u were born in and your something as well is its in your family so there. i dont see why people cant label them self what ever they want, from Chinese to African to albino

[Charleigh]

its all stupid you can call yourself what ever you want.

So even though im Irish American ... I can call myself Spanish? The whole concept of Irish American, is there to identify what countries your ancestory has been in or whatever.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Im Native American, and it can become offensive at times. To Americans, (Some not all, I say this to avoid issues) say that I am a Indian. This irratates me, because my ancestors lived in America long before a european ever set foot on this continant. Why do they deserve the right to label themselves as such, and take away our right to call ourselves Americans? Its not right, you should just say I live in America but my family is from such and such a place. Because as far as Im concerned, if your people didnt settle the area, you arent of that culture and you dont hold the beliefs. Then you arent of the countries decent, your a the offspring of numerous generations of immigrants. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

[Cosmic]

I should fore-warn you, I am somewhat possessing of a philosophy to nationality that doesn't seem to be readily reflected in others, so don't think I'm like, speaking on behalf of England or something. :P

As far as I'm concerned, nationality - where you or your parents have come from - is largely unimportant, and I feel it is viewed with far too much significance given the incredible range of things that make up our complex being.

I hate nationalism, I reject the idea that having countries is a good thing, and I think that a national identity serves to do nothing more than build up an in-group / out-group philosophy, which is infested with resentment and unhealthy competition. I think it has largely got in the way of global development.

So, as you can imagine, I am less than impressed with the typical patriotic view that many Americans (though by no means exclusively) take on, and so it follows that I consider the hyphenation of origin unnecessary and arbitrary.

[Perseus]

I don't see why people get mad at this. My family is English. I look English. There's no doubt about it. If I say my family originated from England/Britain, and I say I'm English-American, they can get over it. I don't see why it's a big deal. America has only been around for two-hundred and thirty years, so there is no "American" yet. Give it another five hundred years when everyone has been assimilated into one and when no one remembers where their family came from because every looks the same, for the most part. Of course you'd still have separate races, maybe.

[Rutherford The Brave]

I don't see why people get mad at this. My family is English. I look English. There's no doubt about it. If I say my family originated from England/Britain, and I say I'm English-American, they can get over it. I don't see why it's a big deal. America has only been around for two-hundred and thirty years, so there is no "American" yet. Give it another five hundred years when everyone has been assimilated into one and when no one remembers where their family came from because every looks the same, for the most part. Of course you'd still have separate races, maybe.

Native "Americans" I wonder why they call them that?

[Perseus]

Native "Americans" I wonder why they call them that?

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about Europeans getting all "offended" that we refer to ourselves as that.

[Rutherford The Brave]

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about Europeans getting all "offended" that we refer to ourselves as that.

Its frustrating for my family, what with the whole trail of tears thing, then this whole debate. More so for my grandma, but they kind of like enstilled this hate, and despair into me when I was young.

[Perseus]

Its frustrating for my family, what with the whole trail of tears thing, then this whole debate. More so for my grandma, but they kind of like enstilled this hate, and despair into me when I was young.

Here's the thing about that. I didn't do it. I think Andrew Jackson is giant faggot for doing all the shit he did. Just because I'm white doesn't mean anything. White people have the worst history when it comes violence and racism, and I never said I was proud of it. In fact, this thread has nothing do with it.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Here's the thing about that. I didn't do it. I think Andrew Jackson is giant faggot for doing all the shit he did. Just because I'm white doesn't mean anything. White people have the worst history when it comes violence and racism, and I never said I was proud of it. In fact, this thread has nothing do with it.

I never said you did.....I just stated a fact.

[Korashk]

I hate it because it's not an accurate phrase regardless of what the phrase has evolved to mean.

Example:
Are you a black person from Africa that moved to America? You're an African-American.
Are you a black person born in America? You're NOT African-American. You're an American of African descent. A white person from South Africa that moves to America has more claim to the title of African-American than you do.

[Perseus]

I never said you did.....I just stated a fact.

You are acting like it. The past is the past. We should never forget the past, but we shouldn't dwell on it and persecute people because of what their ancestors did.

[Rutherford The Brave]

You are acting like it. The past is the past. We should never forget the past, but we shouldn't dwell on it and persecute people because of what their ancestors did.

Trust me I'd never accuse you of something that you weren't alive for, it probably wasn't even your ancestors. I just want people to realize that, prior to immigration their were people who settled this area, and were native to America, and deserve the right to be called Americans.

[Zephyr]

Call me odd, but I don't think of it as identifying with ancestral roots, I think it's a cool reminder of the melting pot that is America. I mean, hell, look at me, I've got at least 10 different ethnicities in me :P Some more obscure and some more present then others, but it's still there. It serves as a reminder that we all 'came' from different places, but we're still united. I could care less about identifying with it for the sake of pride, that's not what it's about, a least to me.

[Severus Snape]

It depends on if you are identifying yourself on ethnic, cultural, or in racial terms. Culturally I'm an American (an Anglophile nonetheless, I intentionally expose myself to a lot of British culture simply because I love it). Ethnically my ancestors are English and Lebanese. Racially I guess that puts me as Caucasian.

I think Andrew Jackson is giant faggot for doing all the shit he did.

Cool. I guess Andrew Jackson is gay because of his genocidal presidential policy. Either that or all gay people are like Andrew Jackson and enjoy subjecting minorities to inhumane treatment. Keep your slurs to yourself please.

[Perseus]

Trust me I'd never accuse you of something that you weren't alive for, it probably wasn't even your ancestors. I just want people to realize that, prior to immigration their were people who settled this area, and were native to America, and deserve the right to be called Americans.
I am quite aware of what my ancestors have done, and I refuse to call Native Americans Indians because of how demeaning it is. I'm not ignorant jackass who doesn't know anything about Native American history; I've read up on it.



Cool. I guess Andrew Jackson is gay because of his genocidal presidential policy. Either that or all gay people are like Andrew Jackson and enjoy subjecting minorities to inhumane treatment. Keep your slurs to yourself please.

Someone should read this (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=92035).

[Severus Snape]

Someone should read this (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=92035).

Irrelevant. Context doesn't matter when slurs are involved. They are inherently insulting. Trying to justify it with pseudo intellectual rambling makes it worse.

[Korashk]

Irrelevant. Context doesn't matter...
Context ALWAYS matters.

[Severus Snape]

Context ALWAYS matters.

says the person who quotes me out of context lol. Oh the ironing

[Korashk]

says the person who quotes me out of context lol. Oh the ironing
What would including the rest of the sentence change about the context of your statement? I guess adding ellipses would be better.

[Severus Snape]

If you stare at it long enough I'm sure you will figure it out.

[Cosmic]

If you stare at it long enough I'm sure you will figure it out.

Surely if he's saying that it always matters, your condition of it not mattering when slurs are involved is irrelevant to his statement, so his not including that bit is perfectly acceptable, because he's refuting your claim that there are times when context doesn't matter - what those times are doesn't matter to his statement.

[Severus Snape]

Surely if he's saying that it always matters, your condition of it not mattering when slurs are involved is irrelevant to his statement, so his not including that bit is perfectly acceptable, because he's refuting your claim that there are times when context doesn't matter - what those times are doesn't matter to his statement.

He said "always".

[Cosmic]

He said "always".

Exactly, thus he does not need to quote your condition for it not mattering, because he has said there are no conditions for it not mattering.

[Severus Snape]

Exactly, thus he does not need to quote your condition for it not mattering, because he has said there are no conditions for it not mattering.

He said the exact opposite.

[Korashk]

He said the exact opposite.
Umm...
Context ALWAYS matters.
No I didn't...

"Context always matters" doesn't mean "context only matters sometimes." It means that context must be taken into account 100% of the time.

[Severus Snape]

I think you are very confused right now.

[Korashk]

I think you are very confused right now.
I think you are very confused right now.

[scuba steve]

The only thing that pisses me off about the whole American Irish bandwagon "oh the British are terrible i'm glad my ancestors chose to leave Ireland" These are the very same people who are so ignorant as to privately fund terrorists in Ireland that blow up territories that hold a majority of Irish Unionists brainwashed into believing they are helping the Irish gain independence.

[Perseus]

Irrelevant. Context doesn't matter when slurs are involved. They are inherently insulting. Trying to justify it with pseudo intellectual rambling makes it worse.

How is it irrelevant? You are the one getting offended because I chose a word that is used in a different meaning than you are taking it to be. I was using "faggot" in a modern day meaning, as in someone who is a complete jackass, which Andrew Jackson was. I'm sorry you still hold the bearing that "faggot" is only a derogatory term for homosexuals and see it should only be used as such.

[Dorsum Oppel]

Here's the thing about that. [B]White people have the worst history when it comes violence and racism,

[SIZE="5"]I FUCKING HATE THIS.
Not at all. There is probably not a single ethnic group in the world who has not fucked some other group up at some point or another. "White people" have done some pretty bad fucking, but not much worse than any other large and wide spread group. Many native americans plundered and stole land just as whites did, africans have been enslaving each-other much longer and on a bigger scale than whites, and the spaniards conquered an even greater expanse of land, destroyed more cultures, languages, and religions than whites.


Onto the next matter of business.
Sure, you can claim genealogy, but unless you actively participate in the culture, not heritage. Heritage is the passing down of cultural traditions, languages, and stories. I don't speak castillian or celebrate traditional festivals or customs native to leon, so I don't consider myself very spanish. I don't know italian or sicilian, and can't do folk dances. I've never been in palermo. I don't consider my self italian. I live in texas, speak american english, enjoy barbeque, rodeo's, and can even square dance. Kinda.

This is my new cultural identity. While I might have european genealogy, I'm american. Blood has not much to do with cultural identity. However, I don't get all bitchtits when someone calls themselves irish-american.

Cool. I guess Andrew Jackson is gay because of his genocidal presidential policy. Either that or all gay people are like Andrew Jackson and enjoy subjecting minorities to inhumane treatment. Keep your slurs to yourself please.
Talk about getting bitchtits. Slurs aren't inherently insulting, words only have the power you give them. Learn to linguistics plz. You're getting offended because you want to. Also, nothing is inherent.

[Perseus]

I FUCKING HATE THIS.
Not at all. There is probably not a single ethnic group in the world who has not fucked some other group up at some point or another. "White people" have done some pretty bad fucking, but not much worse than any other large and wide spread group. Many native americans plundered and stole land just as whites did, africans have been enslaving each-other much longer and on a bigger scale than whites, and the spaniards conquered an even greater expanse of land, destroyed more cultures, languages, and religions than whites.



Spaniards are technically white, though. They may have more Moorish in them than any other European ethnicity, but they are still white. They still have Germanic roots like every other Western European country.

[Dorsum Oppel]

Spaniards are technically white, though. They may have more Moorish in them than any other European ethnicity, but they are still white. They still have Germanic roots like every other Western European country.

Celtic roots, bru. There's also no technical way to define white people, but I've never heard of anyone consider Spaniards to be white people. You're also missing the point.

[Perseus]

Celtic roots, bru. There's also no technical way to define white people, but I've never heard of anyone consider Spaniards to be white people. You're also missing the point.
No, I got the point. I just had nothing to say about it because you're right in every way possible. And I've never heard someone not consider Spaniards not to be white.

[Cosmic]

No, I got the point. I just had nothing to say about it because you're right in every way possible. And I've never heard someone not consider Spaniards not to be white.

Their race is Hispanic, not White.

[Perseus]

Their race is Hispanic, not White.

Spaniards? From Spain? I'm quite sure they are classified as white since they live in Europe. They're Mediterranean, just like the Italians and Greeks.

[Cosmic]

Spaniards? From Spain? I'm quite sure they are classified as white since they live in Europe. They're Mediterranean, just like the Italians and Greeks.

Apparently, they're technically Latino, but commonly (and apparently incorrectly) called Hispanic. So it would seem we're both wrong.

[scuba steve]

Spaniards? From Spain? I'm quite sure they are classified as white since they live in Europe. They're Mediterranean, just like the Italians and Greeks.

Technically Spanish people are both Caucasian and Hispanic. Caucasian because this encompases the entire land mass of Europe and outer reaches of Africa and Hispanic due to this being originally a term for people in the Spanish empire.

[Dorsum Oppel]

Technically Spanish people are both Caucasian and Hispanic. Caucasian because this encompases the entire land mass of Europe and outer reaches of Africa and Hispanic due to this being originally a term for people in the Spanish empire.

Caucasian=/=White.

Technically, all latin derived romance language cultures are latino. Depending on the part of spain, you'll have racial influence from the Gaul's, Iberian's, Moor's, Greek, French, Latin, Germanic, Moroccan, and much others. In basque, they're racially composed of germanic, french, gaulic, latin, and greek. In Castile y Leon, they are moorish, latin, iberian, greek, and gaulic. Basque and Galicia have mostly people with lighter skin, blonde hair, and blue eyes, but even so I wouldn't consider to be white.

[Dunce]

I don't get angry when people say they're Irish.. but it annoys me when they name themselves "Irish girl" or something like that and it turns out their great great great great Grandmother was Irish, which, I don't think makes you Irish. Like, my grandmothers English and not for one second do I consider myself at all English.

[scuba steve]

Caucasian=/=White.



It's American English that this word is used solely for the determination of the colour of people. Historically Caucasian has been used to define people from the whole area of Europe and Northern Africa regardless of skin tone. It is also used as the general demonym for those from the Caucasus region.

Thus those from Spain can be called Caucasian.