Religion and Gay people.

[Chatterbox]

I am not religious. But I am still terrified that if im gay I could go to hell. I was wondering what people's views are on this? And if religious people who believe that homosexuals go to hell could explain why??


Thank you.

CHATTERBOX <3

[Perseus]

I am not religious. But I am still terrified that if im gay I could go to hell. I was wondering what people's views are on this? And if religious people who believe that homosexuals go to hell could explain why??


Thank you.

CHATTERBOX <3

I am going to just say this. Hell never is explicitly mentioned in the Bible, especially as brimstone and fire. Hell was used be the Catholic Church as propaganda to join the Church. The origins of Hell date back the ancient Jerusalem where they had a pit where they put dead people and trash, etc. and stuff was always burning down there, so they figured, as in a supposition, that when you die, if you're a "bad" person, you must go somewhere that's not Heaven.

[Lights]

I am going to just say this. Hell never is explicitly mentioned in the Bible, especially as brimstone and fire. Hell was used be the Catholic Church as propaganda to join the Church. The origins of Hell date back the ancient Jerusalem where they had a pit where they put dead people and trash, etc. and stuff was always burning down there, so they figured, as in a supposition, that when you die, if you're a "bad" person, you must go somewhere that's not Heaven.

Precisely this.

And seeing as you're not religious, Chatterbox, I'm sure this won't offend you: the possibilities of there actually being a Hell, or Heaven for that matter, are so very slim solely because of what we know as 'Science'.
The Bible and what-have-you was written an incredible amount of years ago now. Back then homosexuality was basically an unknown thing because it wasn't something to ever be outspoken about. All of the rubbish in the Bible saying that people should never have relationships with someone of the same gender is a load of outdated bull. It's taking time, but even the Church of England is reconsidering its rules regarding homosexuality. I don't know if Roman Catholics ever will, though.
But anyway, I don't think you have anything at all to worry about.

[Azunite]

Too bad Hell is mentioned in Kur'an

[Perseus]

Too bad Hell is mentioned in Kur'an

Is referred to as brimstone and fire, though? That's what makes Hell unpleasant to think about. I've come to the point where if God does exist and so does Hell, I don't care because it won't be brimstone and fire, and I'd have my two best friends there with me.

[deadpie]

I am going to just say this. Hell never is explicitly mentioned in the Bible, especially as brimstone and fire. Hell was used be the Catholic Church as propaganda to join the Church. The origins of Hell date back the ancient Jerusalem where they had a pit where they put dead people and trash, etc. and stuff was always burning down there, so they figured, as in a supposition, that when you die, if you're a "bad" person, you must go somewhere that's not Heaven.

Well, you would just hang out in Tarturus waiting for the lake of flames to consume you for eternity, or what is called a "Second Death", which is when judgement day begins. So really all in all, the Hell most people think of hasn't started yet and isn't much of what you think it is. Research the stuff for more information; it is kind of interesting. Also, passages at the bottom.

As much as people like to say The Bible bashes homosexuality nonstop, it doesn't that much. Really, there are about less than thirty worth sentences that are actually against homosexuality in all. I'll show you the parts that DO talk about it though (Although, I'm sure there's about four or five I'm missing out on) -

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. Leviticus 18:22

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:13

There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel. Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God. Deuteronomy Chapter 23:17-18 (A Sodomite is kind of slang for homosexual)

Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness? For as long as the son of Jesse liveth upon the ground, thou shalt not be established, nor thy kingdom. Wherefore now send and fetch him unto me, for he shall surely die. And Jonathan answered Saul his father, and said unto him, Wherefore shall he be slain? what hath he done? And Saul cast a javelin at him to smite him: whereby Jonathan knew that it was determined of his father to slay David. Samuel 20:30-33

And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel. Kings 14:24

And he took away the sodomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made. Kings 15:12


And he walked in all the ways of Asa his father; he turned not aside from it, doing that which was right in the eyes of the LORD: nevertheless the high places were not taken away; for the people offered and burnt incense yet in the high places...(continued to 46).... And the remnant of the sodomites, which remained in the days of his father Asa, he took out of the land. Kings 22:43, 46

And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove. Kings 23:7


For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Romans 1:26-28


And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. Romans 1:31-32

For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine. Timothy 1:10



Really, this is the problem with religions, including Christianity. They are against things that people have no control over. People say that you can "Cure" homosexuality, but that's utter bullshit. That's called making people ashamed of who they are and hiding a part of themself in the dark. I think with where we are in the world right now we need to understand that these religious texts are out of date and we need to move on from them. It's things like these that will keep making homosexuals not want to come out and even hate themselves. This is one of the dark sides of religion pushings its pins and needles into society as we see it. Lately it seems like more people aren't having a problem with it because they know this is how people are born and it's a beauty of what is given to them.


Other sources about hell and such:

"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment" Peter 2:4

" But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8

[Perseus]

Other sources about hell and such:

"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment" Peter 2:4 With this, though, it only takes about angels, not humans.

" But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8 [/SIZE]

This is the only debatable one. Since these all occurred from dreams, and it could have been manipulated or mistranslated, misunderstood, etc., you can't really rely on it.

[deadpie]

With this, though, it only takes about angels, not humans.

[quote\" But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8

This is the only debatable one. Since these all occurred from dreams, and it could have been manipulated or mistranslated, misunderstood, etc., you can't really rely on it.

Excuse me for not using fifty quotes from the bible to support my stuff like I usually do, I got lazy. There's a couple other parts in Revelation mentioning Tartarus too.

[Perseus]

Excuse me for not using fifty quotes from the bible to support my stuff like I usually do, I got lazy. There's a couple other parts in Revelation mentioning Tartarus too.
Lol, I was talking about Revelations in general. And why would Christian text refer to Greek mythology?

[Sebastian Michaelis]

i am not religious. But i am still terrified that if im gay i could go to hell. I was wondering what people's views are on this? And if religious people who believe that homosexuals go to hell could explain why??


Thank you.

Chatterbox <3

god loves all no matter what!!!

[Korashk]

I am going to just say this. Hell never is explicitly mentioned in the Bible, especially as brimstone and fire.
Actually, I'm pretty sure Hell is mentioned exactly once in the Bible explicitly as a place of brimstone and fire. Internet is slow, though, so I can't look it up right now.

[Perseus]

Actually, I'm pretty sure Hell is mentioned exactly once in the Bible explicitly as a place of brimstone and fire. Internet is slow, though, so I can't look it up right now.

What? Never once have I read it, so that's weird, albeit I never read the Bible at full capacity when I had to.

[deadpie]

god loves all no matter what!!!

God loves everyone =/= Kills over 400,000 people


Lol, I was talking about Revelations in general. And why would Christian text refer to Greek mythology?

The term is used in a different term in The Bible, but pretty much translates to Tartarus. You people that are thinking of Hel are probably thinking Sheol, actually. Actually, I mixed my words up. Sheol is actually the place where people are waited for their punishment of an eternal lake of fire/second death and Tartarus is pretty much where all of God's traitors go to. Although, they've both been switched around allot due to contradictions in the bible.

Also, we're officially off topic.

[Weeping]

Well, I'm an atheist.. But.. I guess, that if you're religious, believe in God, blahblah. He loves you the way you are, and if not, he wouldn't have made you gay, right?

:hug:

[deadpie]

Well, I'm an atheist.. But.. I guess, that if you're religious, believe in God, blahblah. He loves you the way you are, and if not, he wouldn't have made you gay, right?

:hug:

Unless the so called perfect God actually did make mistakes.

[Perseus]

Also, we're officially off topic.
Meh, we're giving the thread life and a debate.

[lipstick_kisses23]

I don't think you'd go to hell honestly, and i don't think it matters who you love at all so as long as you love <3

[The Joker]

I am not religious. But I am still terrified that if im gay I could go to hell. I was wondering what people's views are on this? And if religious people who believe that homosexuals go to hell could explain why??


Thank you.

CHATTERBOX <3

If you aren't religious, why are you afraid of going to hell for anything at all, homosexuality or not? If you're not religious, you don't believe in hell, at least I don't.

[Chatterbox]

Thank you for all your in depth and supportive replies honestly did not expect that outcome! :) I feel a lot better about it. I know its strange that im not religious yet I am still concerned. But its because to me death is the big unknown and it frightens me and if im wrong, I don't want to be punished for not doing what I didnt know what right hahaha. If that makes sense? But thank you all anyway. Expecially Persues and deadpie. I've actually learnt something too.

CHATTERBOX <3
xxxxxxxxxx

[Korashk]

What? Never once have I read it, so that's weird, albeit I never read the Bible at full capacity when I had to.

Matthew 13:36-43
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

[Severus Snape]

I am not religious. But I am still terrified that if im gay I could go to hell. I was wondering what people's views are on this? And if religious people who believe that homosexuals go to hell could explain why??


Thank you.

CHATTERBOX <3

Assumption 1: god created us

Assumption 2: He sends evil people to hell

Assumption 3: Doing gay things is evil

Fact 1: Gay people cannot help being gay

Assumption 4: God creates people gay

Assumption 5: God sends the evil gay people to hell when they give into their strong biological urge to have sex

fact 2: God is unjust.

Conclusion: See you in hell, or not. (probably not)

[flashstep96]

why should something like sexual orientation matter? it dosent make you any less of a person! thats stupid. if the people (churchs of any anti gay religions) would stop and THINK (yes, its possible) for a second, then we wouldnt have this problem. all im trying to say is: sexuality shoudnt matter when it comes to spiriuality, k? two TOTALLY different things...

[Death]

fact 2: God is unjust.

Assuming he's real of course. Seing that I don't however, I have better things to do than worry about the bullshit that some corrupt officials spread. Not calling religion bullshit in the slightest, just those who say that gays go to Hell. You know, the general malcontents who give religion a bad name.

[gingeylover14]

um a christian and i belive that the bible says that god loves us no matter what wether your gay, straight, bi, white, black, tan, blond, brunett, ginger whatever so no i dont think you can go to hell just because your gay

[Mxio]

dude im gay but i am also not religous because i was always taught in ccd that if you are gay you will burn in hell for all eturnaty do you know what i have to say to that? "bullshit!"
oh and remember who is the one preaching that you will go to hell a bunch of old wowmen and men who think that it is bad to have sex i mean really.

[deadpie]

um a christian and i belive that the bible says that god loves us no matter what wether your gay, straight, bi, white, black, tan, blond, brunett, ginger whatever so no i dont think you can go to hell just because your gay

I hate when Christians speak for God with what they think he would accept. Also, did you read my post here? (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1148947&postcount=6)

[Death]

um a christian and i belive that the bible says that god loves us no matter what wether your gay, straight, bi, white, black, tan, blond, brunett, ginger whatever so no i dont think you can go to hell just because your gay

Wait, you BELIEVE the bible says so and so? You mean you don't know? Well, here's a bible verse I KNOW exists:

"If a man lies with mankind as he lieth with a woman, they have both commited an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Leviticus 20:13

How's that for God loving you no matter what? Oh, and don't even get me started on the hundreds of others.

[frankie97]

wow i thought this would be interseting..... not really

[Bluesman]

I am not religious. But I am still terrified that if im gay I could go to hell. I was wondering what people's views are on this? And if religious people who believe that homosexuals go to hell could explain why??


Thank you.

CHATTERBOX <3

Just my opinion, but I believe if you're gay you go to hell. I'm Christian though so that's gonna be my opinion. People, even religious people, have tons of different views on this though... some people believe that being gay makes you go to hell, some people believe that if you are gay but you dont have gay sex then you'll go to hell, and some people don't believe that there is no hell. I guess the only real way to know is to read up on it, read the Bible if you want, and find out what YOU believe.

[deadpie]

Just my opinion, but I believe if you're gay you go to hell.

No, according to the bible dead sinners go to Sheol, but when the Judgment begins that's when they get to swim in the nice fun exciting lake of fire.

It's funny how so many Christians know what they're talking about when they mention hell.

[Death]

Just my opinion, but I believe if you're gay you go to hell. I'm Christian though so that's gonna be my opinion.

1. You don't believe that because you're Christian (since the vast majority do not); you believe it because you have fucked up morals.

2. Saying gays go to Hell is a bit pointless when plenty of them are going to be atheists and are not going to believe in Hell (just like you don't believe in the Islamic Doom) anyway.

3. Saying that someone is going to burn for all eternity because of a trait that they cannot control is portraying bigotry in the deity. It would be like all black people burning in Hell.

4. Do you wish this upon gays?

[Bluesman]

1. You don't believe that because you're Christian (since the vast majority do not); you believe it because you have fucked up morals.

2. Saying gays go to Hell is a bit pointless when plenty of them are going to be atheists and are not going to believe in Hell (just like you don't believe in the Islamic Doom) anyway.

3. Saying that someone is going to burn for all eternity because of a trait that they cannot control is portraying bigotry in the deity. It would be like all black people burning in Hell.

4. Do you wish this upon gays?

Of course I don't wish that upon gays, I don't wish it on anyone! For all I know, I could be wrong on everything I say... so could you and so could any other random person on this website. Frankly, my opinion on this could be different tomorrow. Even in Christianity there's a lot of gray area... homosexuality is considered a sin, but God forgives sins... however if God forgave all sins then why would there even be a hell? No one knows... one day we'll all find out. Either we'll be in heaven, hell, or maybe just 6 feet below...

[Death]

Of course I don't wish that upon gays

Glad to hear it. One thing which bugs me though is this: if you have no intention of gays burning in Hell, then surely if you believe it, then that must mean you strongly disagree with God's actions?

I don't wish it on anyone! For all I know, I could be wrong on everything I say... so could you and so could any other random person on this website. Frankly, my opinion on this could be different tomorrow. Even in Christianity there's a lot of gray area...

True

homosexuality is considered a sin, but God forgives sins...

Not necessarily true. Only a small handful of Christians actually consider it a sin.

however if God forgave all sins then why would there even be a hell?

That is assuming that displeasing God (without forgiveness) lands you in Hell. He would have to be truly evil and vindictive to do such a thing. Do you really think an omnibenevolent god would do this?

[Bluesman]

Glad to hear it. One thing which bugs me though is this: if you have no intention of gays burning in Hell, then surely if you believe it, then that must mean you strongly disagree with God's actions?


Honestly I'm not sure... I mean I'd do differently but I'm not sure if I disagree. If I were in the position of God I'd do lots of stuff differently, but one of the principles of Christianity is believing that what God does it right. There's two ways to look at that: extreme faithfulness and extreme stupidity... which one it truly is I won't know until I die and see if I'm in heaven or just dead.

Not necessarily true. Only a small handful of Christians actually consider it a sin.

I'd disagree with that. Pretty much all Christians consider homosexuality a sin, but there are some more liberal Christians who do not. Christianity says that there is no cardinal sin, or unforgivable sin, and that in God's eyes all sins are equal... so I guess that would mean that homosexuality is forgivable? I'm pretty sure that Catholocism there are levels of sins, so gays going to hell is more of a Catholic belief I guess... and I guess I've proven myself wrong

[Deathwingo0o]

If you are in love, you will ignore all consequences. If not, you are not in love.

[Death]

Honestly I'm not sure... I mean I'd do differently but I'm not sure if I disagree. If I were in the position of God I'd do lots of stuff differently, but one of the principles of Christianity is believing that what God does it right. There's two ways to look at that: extreme faithfulness and extreme stupidity... which one it truly is I won't know until I die and see if I'm in heaven or just dead.

What if an evil dictator came into power and started killing off all Jews just like Hitler did? Would you be fine with that? Given a choice (simply because you're not a Jew), would you follow him?

I'd disagree with that. Pretty much all Christians consider homosexuality a sin, but there are some more liberal Christians who do not.

You say that as if it's rare, but the majority of Christians are probably going to be more liberal in their intepretation of homosexuality. Not being funny, but on this site, I've only seen two other people who believed it, and one was banned and the other was an arsehole who stopped posting here and sent me troll messages showing his ignorace. And in life, I've only known one person who believed that.

In fact, I've had a lot of Christians I know say that they think that Christians who interpet the bible literally are doing the wrong thing. Look at Jesus Christ; he was supposed to have loved people for who they are. He said treat others how you'd wish to be treated and to love thy neighbour. Is calling homosexuals wrong following in his footsteps? Really?

[The Dark Lord]

I'd disagree with that. Pretty much all Christians consider homosexuality a sin, but there are some more liberal Christians who do not. Christianity says that there is no cardinal sin, or unforgivable sin, and that in God's eyes all sins are equal... so I guess that would mean that homosexuality is forgivable?

Either the Christian considers homosexuality a sin but allows it to happen in their society making them a hypocrite or the Christian actively discourages homosexuality and considers homosexuals morally inferior, making them a twat.

I'm pretty sure that Catholocism there are levels of sins, so gays going to hell is more of a Catholic belief I guess... and I guess I've proven myself wrong

I wonder what level of sin the Catholic church would consider a person in a position of trust who sexually abused young boys before having his crime covered up by his employers, who were a global insitution. Surely that would be a worse sin than the most powerful catholic being a member of Hitler Youth. Or perhaps being a member of an establishment which preaches homophobic and sexist nonsense on a weekly basis would be wrong. Is it that a sin or merely a sign of insanity?

[Bluesman]

What if an evil dictator came into power and started killing off all Jews just like Hitler did? Would you be fine with that? Given a choice (simply because you're not a Jew), would you follow him?



You say that as if it's rare, but the majority of Christians are probably going to be more liberal in their intepretation of homosexuality. Not being funny, but on this site, I've only seen two other people who believed it, and one was banned and the other was an arsehole who stopped posting here and sent me troll messages showing his ignorace. And in life, I've only known one person who believed that.

In fact, I've had a lot of Christians I know say that they think that Christians who interpet the bible literally are doing the wrong thing. Look at Jesus Christ; he was supposed to have loved people for who they are. He said treat others how you'd wish to be treated and to love thy neighbour. Is calling homosexuals wrong following in his footsteps? Really?

As I said in my previous post, gays going to hell is probably more of a catholic belief. I'm not catholic, so I really don't know what I believe. Therefore I'm not going to argue anymore and this is pretty much a mute point.

Either the Christian considers homosexuality a sin but allows it to happen in their society making them a hypocrite or the Christian actively discourages homosexuality and considers homosexuals morally inferior, making them a twat.



I wonder what level of sin the Catholic church would consider a person in a position of trust who sexually abused young boys before having his crime covered up by his employers, who were a global insitution. Surely that would be a worse sin than the most powerful catholic being a member of Hitler Youth. Or perhaps being a member of an establishment which preaches homophobic and sexist nonsense on a weekly basis would be wrong. Is it that a sin or merely a sign of insanity?

I completely disagree with 3/4 of catholic beliefs... so I'm not sure what I belief. I guess I've gone to being neutral on this one.

[ponygon101]

I don't think you'll go to hell. What ever happened to "God loves you just the way you are". If he loves everyone and made us all this way then why would he punish you for what he did?

[Dark_Hellfire]

Prayers for Bobby summed it up pretty well

"I believe that God was pleased with Bobby's kind and loving spirit. In God's eyes kindness and love are what it's all about"

For those who don't know, the movie is about a very strong christian mother who has to deal with her son coming out as gay.

[Alaph]

I am not religious. But I am still terrified that if im gay I could go to hell. I was wondering what people's views are on this? And if religious people who believe that homosexuals go to hell could explain why??


Thank you.

CHATTERBOX <3

No matter what you believe, someone thinks you're going to hell.

[Dark_Hellfire]

You also need to consider the following

What is good and what is bad or evil?
Who decides good and bad, right and wrong; and by what standard?
Is there an absolute standard of good and bad beyond one’s the personal opinions? Should good and bad be determined by custom, by rational law, or by the situation? What if the decisions of others (society, authorities, laws, gods) determining good and bad are contrary to one’s personal beliefs or freedoms? Should you obey others or follow your own conscience?
If we do not have free will but are ruled by outside factors, what difference does good and bad make?

[joshuathebrainiac]

I am going to just say this. Hell never is explicitly mentioned in the Bible, especially as brimstone and fire. Hell was used be the Catholic Church as propaganda to join the Church. The origins of Hell date back the ancient Jerusalem where they had a pit where they put dead people and trash, etc. and stuff was always burning down there, so they figured, as in a supposition, that when you die, if you're a "bad" person, you must go somewhere that's not Heaven.

two things:
1.) Hell is mentioned in so many of the books esp. in the New Testament letters and epistles
2.) you don't really know what hell is; hell is defined as the absence of God but could be defined as fire and brimstone as a means of pain and suffering(which are mentioned by name in Revelation 14, Daniel 5, Job 18, Psalm 11, Ezekiel 38, Luke 17)

[slappy]

Guys, guys, guys
Why can't we all just go to margoritaville when we die?
It's a lot more fun there

You also need to consider the following

What is good and what is bad or evil?
Who decides good and bad, right and wrong; and by what standard?
Is there an absolute standard of good and bad beyond one’s the personal opinions? Should good and bad be determined by custom, by rational law, or by the situation? What if the decisions of others (society, authorities, laws, gods) determining good and bad are contrary to one’s personal beliefs or freedoms? Should you obey others or follow your own conscience?
If we do not have free will but are ruled by outside factors, what difference does good and bad make?

Yes, you must obey the fallowing.




Leviticus 11:9-12 says:
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.



So sea food is also an abomination. And rich christians love there shrimp cocktails.
I say that because I like shrimp and I wanna eat it

[bleedoutlove]

No offence, but it is kind of flawed, because they say that God loves all of his creations. Nor does it say that gay people will go to Hell, it says that they shall be killed (don't worry, they haven't killed me yet haha).
But if God loves all his creations he cannot hate someone for whom they love.
You won't go to Hell.
Bless :)

[restricted NA]

Im some what religious, but i don't care if someone is gay. I do NOT think that gays will go to hell. Its stupid and ignorant for people to think that. I believe in god and all but the church system is somewhat corrupt, they say Gays go to hell but what about the priests that molest boys, why don't they go to god.

Overall you have nothing to worry, hell is for people who do horrible things. NOT for people who have different sexual preferences than what the church wants.

[slappy]

Im some what religious, but i don't care if someone is gay. I do NOT think that gays will go to hell. Its stupid and ignorant for people to think that. I believe in god and all but the church system is somewhat corrupt, they say Gays go to hell but what about the priests that molest boys, why don't they go to god.

Overall you have nothing to worry, hell is for people who do horrible things. NOT for people who have different sexual preferences than what the church wants.

But, the bible says gay sex is bad

[restricted NA]

But, the bible says gay sex is bad

ehh , I never read it, never will. I believe people can interpret it in their own way. To me the bible acts as guide lines to living you life not set in stone rules. I am opened minded and don't care if someone is gay or not. I have family members who are gay and i don't think they're ever going to hell, i love them the same amount as my heterosexual family members

[slappy]

ehh , I never read it, never will. I believe people can interpret it in their own way. To me the bible acts as guide lines to living you life not set in stone rules. I am opened minded and don't care if someone is gay or not. I have family members who are gay and i don't think they're ever going to hell, i love them the same amount as my heterosexual family members

Yea, I know
I was being sarcastic.
I believe the bible is just a book of ferry tales.

[embers]

ehh , I never read it, never will. I believe people can interpret it in their own way. To me the bible acts as guide lines to living you life not set in stone rules. I am opened minded and don't care if someone is gay or not. I have family members who are gay and i don't think they're ever going to hell, i love them the same amount as my heterosexual family members

The fact that so many Christians believe the Bible can be interpreted metaphorically - meaning people can interpret it differently - removes the idea of there being a religious truth behind it.

Besides, your New Testament makes some stuff pretty clear:

"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

[FainAgain]

The bible has a lot of rules in it (such as cleanliness from a book I cant remember) that no one pays attention to anymore. My position is this. Let the gays alone, but do not allow them to be married. Marriage belongs to god, and is to between a man and a woman. God will judge them when their time comes. It is not for man to condemn gays. They have no rights to marriage though.

[Death]

The bible has a lot of rules in it (such as cleanliness from a book I cant remember) that no one pays attention to anymore. My position is this. Let the gays alone, but do not allow them to be married. Marriage belongs to god, and is to between a man and a woman. God will judge them when their time comes. It is not for man to condemn gays. They have no rights to marriage though.

So much for letting them alone. And who are you to presume that marriage belongs to God? Not being funny, but I swear that marriage is a symbolic gesture between two people where they repeat some pointless vows which don't always turn out true anyway, a priest rants about random shit, and the audience watches with anticipation, then they all celebrate and shit. How does marriage belong to a god any more than anything else does?

[Sith Lord 13]

How does marriage belong to a god any more than anything else does?

Because marriage has its roots in the church. This is why the state needs to stop issuing marriages all together, leave them to the churches, and give civil unions to all.

[Death]

Because marriage has its roots in the church. This is why the state needs to stop issuing marriages all together, leave them to the churches, and give civil unions to all.

And that means that we can't bring about change for the better? Besides, I was more referring to belonging to God. Theists believe God made the world, right? So from that perspective, the world's contents and marriage would belong to God in equal respects.

[Joshh97]

Jesus had two dads he turned out just fine.

[Sith Lord 13]

And that means that we can't bring about change for the better?

How is establishing a better separation of church and state not better?

[Death]

How is establishing a better separation of church and state not better?

I don't oppose the seperation of church and state as such, but I still think that what the church is doing is out of order, either way.

[Spook]

I don't think that having a certain sexuality can be a sin.

Think of it this way--if god thought it was a sin for a person to be gay, why would he create that person that way?

People can't change their sexuality if they truly feel an attraction to a certain sex, and they shouldn't have to. :D

[dopaper]

jusus said that gayness is wrong becase man and woman where made 4 each other :)

[Continuum]

jusus said that gayness is wrong becase man and woman where made 4 each other :)

OHWAIT, It was part of the bible written before Jeebus was born.

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

[Death]

jusus said that gayness is wrong becase man and woman where made 4 each other :)

I don't know who "jusus" is and of what of what relevance this is to the morality of what doesn't concern the rest of society but it's probably going to be ill-interpreted bigotry anyway. Suffice to say, what is your point?

[FainAgain]

I don't think that having a certain sexuality can be a sin.

Think of it this way--if god thought it was a sin for a person to be gay, why would he create that person that way?

People can't change their sexuality if they truly feel an attraction to a certain sex, and they shouldn't have to. :D

He idint make them that way. He gave people free will. It is the base of christianity. He knows we will disobey, but he gives us free will. But again i Say, gays are not for us to judge. gays simply should not be allowed to marry. Also i agree with Sith Lord 13 when he says

Because marriage has its roots in the church. This is why the state needs to stop issuing marriages all together, leave them to the churches, and give civil unions to all.

[anonymous.john]

He idint make them that way. He gave people free will. It is the base of christianity. He knows we will disobey, but he gives us free will. But again i Say, gays are not for us to judge. gays simply should not be allowed to marry. Also i agree with Sith Lord 13 when he says

But being gay isn't a choice. A gay person absolutely cannot wake up one morning and just decide to be straight for a day, then decide to be gay again much in the same way that a Christian can't just decide to not believe in God for a day.

So if a person that believes in God says that God didn't make someone gay, but being gay isn't a choice, then who/what did?

[The Ninja]

I am an atheist, but the way I see it homosexuality is not a choice. I highly doubt anyone in the world would get up one morning and decide to be gay for no apparent reason. Now sodomy, anal sex, is unnatural, and according to the bible, a sin. Honestly though from a legit christians point of view its just like any other sin, and any christian who says otherwise is a complete and total hypocrite. So the fact that you're gay is not a sin, but according the bible butt sex is. Honestly though this shouldn't stop you from acting upon your temptations.

[FainAgain]

But being gay isn't a choice. A gay person absolutely cannot wake up one morning and just decide to be straight for a day, then decide to be gay again much in the same way that a Christian can't just decide to not believe in God for a day.

So if a person that believes in God says that God didn't make someone gay, but being gay isn't a choice, then who/what did?

I do not delve into the mind of god. But I do not think that he defines matrimony and sex in the bible as to be between a man and a woman (as stated in Hebrews 13:4, and Genesis 2:22-24) so people can go around as homosexuals

The bible also condemns homosexuality (I Corinthians 6:9, 10)

[anonymous.john]

I do not delve into the mind of god. But I do not think that he defines matrimony and sex in the bible as to be between a man and a woman (as stated in Hebrews 13:4, and Genesis 2:22-24) so people can go around as homosexuals

The bible also condemns homosexuality (I Corinthians 6:9, 10)

How can we not delve into the mind of God when addressing such a question? If being gay isn't a choice, and God's going to condemn you for it, then how can he allow it to happen, this certainly pertains to the "mind of God."

Furthermore, if the Bible condemns homosexuality (it does), then how can you not draw the line to condemnation of gay marriage? The Bible certainly condemns gay sex. It never explicitly mentions gay marriage, but how can you not draw that line.

[Korashk]

jusus said that gayness is wrong becase man and woman where made 4 each other :)
Ignoring your atrocious spelling and grammar; where? Where exactly in the Bible does Jesus say that being gay is wrong or that man and woman were made for each other.

I'll save you some time looking it up. The answer is nowhere.

[embers]

I do not delve into the mind of god. But I do not think that he defines matrimony and sex in the bible as to be between a man and a woman (as stated in Hebrews 13:4, and Genesis 2:22-24) so people can go around as homosexuals

The bible also condemns homosexuality (I Corinthians 6:9, 10)

6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Does it? Remember that the Bible has several different translation errors. Where I found 'homosexuals' in one version, I found nothing of the sort in the other.

Oh, and since we're also pulling what we should and shouldn't do out of the Old Testament: do you eat shrimp? Do you wear cothes made from more than one fabric? Yes? You're a sinner.

[Jess]

The bible has a lot of rules in it (such as cleanliness from a book I cant remember) that no one pays attention to anymore. My position is this. Let the gays alone, but do not allow them to be married. Marriage belongs to god, and is to between a man and a woman. God will judge them when their time comes. It is not for man to condemn gays. They have no rights to marriage though.

no rights to marriage? are they not human? they have every freaking right to marry.

[FainAgain]

no rights to marriage? are they not human? they have every freaking right to marry.


Humanity entitles marriage? What exactly is your definition of marriage then?

[slappy]

Humanity entitles marriage? What exactly is your definition of marriage then?


Exactly right, there are two types of marriages, leagile marriage, and holly matrimony.

But this video dose come into mind when I think of this topic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug3YkVhkemg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[FainAgain]

Exactly right, there are two types of marriages, leagile marriage, and holly matrimony.


Thats my whole point. Gays have no point to holy matrimony. Being a Christian, I consider all marriage to be holy matrimony and refuse to acknowledge a courthouse marriage, even though the state does. If the marriage is not with god, then it does not exist.

[Perseus]

Thats my whole point. Gays have no point to holy matrimony. Being a Christian, I consider all marriage to be holy matrimony and refuse to acknowledge a courthouse marriage, even though the state does. If the marriage is not with god, then it does not exist.

What about atheists?

[Drake14]

I am not religious. But I am still terrified that if im gay I could go to hell. I was wondering what people's views are on this? And if religious people who believe that homosexuals go to hell could explain why??


Thank you.

CHATTERBOX <3


Theres no hell and no afterlife Santa Claus so dont be.

[FainAgain]

What about athiests?


Thats actually a really good question. I fail to see why atheists get married, them not believing in god and all... Tax purposes? Its like saying "I don't believe in santa clause" and sending him a letter every year anyway.

People should only be allowed to marry by going through God's church. There should be none of this 'courthouse' bs

[Perseus]

Thats actually a really good question. I fail to see why atheists get married, them not believing in god and all... Tax purposes? Its like saying "I don't believe in santa clause" and sending him a letter every year anyway.

People should only be allowed to marry by going through God's church. There should be none of this 'courthouse' bs

I'm atheist, and I plan on getting married. Why? Because as a culture we are taught to get married. I want to spend my life with a girl I love. So you are opposed to civil unions?

[The Ninja]

I'm atheist, and I plan on getting married. Why? Because as a culture we are taught to get married. I want to spend my life with a girl I love. So you are opposed to civil unions?

Yeah it is part of our culture plus people do do it for legal reasons. I think gays should have the same right.

[Korashk]

I fail to see why atheists get married, them not believing in god and all... Tax purposes?
Tax purposes; and the thousands of other civil rights that legal marriage grants are the only real reasons to get married. It's kinda the main reason that the homosexual community is pissed that they can't get married.

[slappy]

Thats my whole point. Gays have no point to holy matrimony. Being a Christian, I consider all marriage to be holy matrimony and refuse to acknowledge a courthouse marriage, even though the state does. If the marriage is not with god, then it does not exist.

Well, if you're gonna go by what everything "god" says than why don't you kill your mom if she misbehaves? What about seafood? I can bet you have eaten that.

[FainAgain]

Well, if you're gonna go by what everything "god" says than why don't you kill your mom if she misbehaves? What about seafood? I can bet you have eaten that.

And your sig says "Everybody love everybody".... I think u should change that one....

Thou Shalt not kill.

And then we need to differentiate between Holy matrimony, and we need call it something different.

That is the important part. Making sure whatever they have isnt associated with actual marriage, but grants virtually the same cilivil liberties.

[Perseus]

And your sig says "Everybody love everybody".... I think u should change that one....

Thou Shalt not kill.

And then we need to differentiate between Holy matrimony, and we need call it something different.

That is the important part. Making sure whatever they have isnt associated with actual marriage, but grants virtually the same cilivil liberties.

And it's called a civil union...

[Korashk]

And it's called a civil union...
Ans it's not remotely the same.

[anonymous.john]

While we are on the subject, the old testament specifically condemns homosexuality and sodomy. And Jesus specifically endorses the teachings of Moses (which include the 613 commandments in the Old Testament and the condemnation of homosexuality).

The Bible is explicit, Christianity does not support Gays.

[slappy]

And your sig says "Everybody love everybody".... I think u should change that one....

Thou Shalt not kill.

And then we need to differentiate between Holy matrimony, and we need call it something different.

That is the important part. Making sure whatever they have isnt associated with actual marriage, but grants virtually the same cilivil liberties.

Wait, but you seem to go by what the bible says.
That's what the bible says

[Jess]

Humanity entitles marriage? What exactly is your definition of marriage then?

why does marriage have to be associated with religion?

My definition of marriage is a bond between two people. gender does NOT matter.


I fail to see why atheists get married, them not believing in god and all

what??? you have to believe in a God to get married??

[The Ninja]

I fail to see why Christians get married.

[Sith Lord 13]

Ans it's not remotely the same.

Which is why civil unions need to be strengthened.

why does marriage have to be associated with religion?

My definition of marriage is a bond between two people. gender does NOT matter.

Your definition is not the long held English definition. We can't change the English language to suit your whims.

[FainAgain]

why does marriage have to be associated with religion?

My definition of marriage is a bond between two people. gender does NOT matter.

what??? you have to believe in a God to get married??

Yes. What is marriage if not a holy bond between man and woman made in the sight of god. It is god and christians who came up with it!

Simply because it has been integrated into todays culture as a social institution does not mean people can forget its origins.

[embers]

While we are on the subject, the old testament specifically condemns homosexuality and sodomy. And Jesus specifically endorses the teachings of Moses (which include the 613 commandments in the Old Testament and the condemnation of homosexuality).

The Bible is explicit, Christianity does not support Gays.

Those teachings are kind of cast aside because Christians pick and choose what they want to believe. The verses that condemn homosexuality are from the same books that say children should be stoned if they speak ill of their parents and say it is a sin to wear clothes made from more than one material.

[Jess]

Which is why civil unions need to be strengthened.



Your definition is not the long held English definition. We can't change the English language to suit your whims.

that's why I said it's my definition of marriage. I know it's not the proper definition.

[Perseus]

Yes. What is marriage if not a holy bond between man and woman made in the sight of god. It is god and christians who came up with it!

Simply because it has been integrated into todays culture as a social institution does not mean people can forget its origins.

Christians did not create marriage. People have been marrying before Christianity was even a thought.

[Travis_123]

I think that the pope who is against the use of condoms has a far better reason to go to hell than Gay people (i'm not religeous btw, so i don't believe in heaven and hell..)

[Obscene Eyedeas]

This strikes me like a certain family in the u.s.
It is such a stupid thing to dismiss, the idea you can be gay just not act on it. How about all the people opposing gay marriage and gay relations try not being with anyone and fapping to some fucking shit and then come back and say you still say gays shouldn't be allowed to do the same as normal couples. Besides if you look at the translations in the bible you will find that when translating occurred extra words were added.

Leviticus 18:22, the wording of the original Hebrew is very different from the KJV form:


"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind:
it is abomination." [Leviticus 18:22, King James Version]


However, the original Hebrew for Leviticus 18:22 reveals a different 3rd meaning:


We-et-zakar lo' tishkav mishkevey 'ishshah" [Lev 18:22 Hebrew, Latinized]
("And-with a-male NOT lie-down in beds-of a-woman") [Lev 18:22 literal translation]


So, the Hebrew Leviticus 18:22 mentions: someone + a male + a woman; hence, a forbidden 3-way.

Also: "Thou shalt this day be my son-in-law, in the one of the twain." (KJV)

Saul's belief was that David would be so distracted by a wife that he would not be an effective fighter and would be killed by the Philistines. He offered first his daughter Merab, but that was rejected, presumably by her. Then he offered Michal. There is an interesting phrase used at the end of verse 21. In both the NIV and KJV, it would seem that David's first opportunity to be a son-in-law was with the older daughter Merab, and his second was with the younger daughter Michal. The KJV preserves the original text in its clearest form; it implies that David would become Saul's son-in-law through "one of the twain." "Twain" means "two", so the verse seems to refer to one of Saul's two daughters. Unfortunately, this is a mistranslation. The underlined phrase "the one of" does not exist in the Hebrew original. The words are shown in italics in the King James Version; this is an admission by the translators that they made the words up. Thus, if the KJV translators had been truly honest, they would have written:

"Thou shalt this day be my son-in-law, in the twain."

[Korashk]

Christians did not create marriage. People have been marrying before Christianity was even a thought.
Including homosexuals.

[FainAgain]

Gonna stop posting in this thread because someone thinks they can bash my reputation because they don't agree with me. I have said nothing personally offensive.

[Perseus]

Gonna stop posting in this thread because someone thinks they can bash my reputation because they don't agree with me. I have said nothing personally offensive.

Way to avoid my statement.

[slappy]

If god wanted only straight people to merry, he would tell us in person and not have it in some book.

[Perseus]

NO NO NO
"god" told him to stop

Don't mock him.

[slappy]

Don't mock him.

Yea,
I apoligize for that one.
I ask you, may I retract that statement?

[Perseus]

Yea,
I apoligize for that one.
I ask you, may I retract that statement?

Do whatever you want.

[Sith Lord 13]

that's why I said it's my definition of marriage. I know it's not the proper definition.

And I define cat as the animal which has two legs, wings, and a beak. It doesn't mean my definition has any place in a zoological discussion.

[RoseyCadaver]

I don't believe in a hell just an alternative to heaven,I think that homosexuals/bisexuals/trans genders, were BORN that way,or their environment played a part in it.I think no creator would send his children to a hell for being himself or herself,for only humans can show hate to something different,it takes something almost infinite to not be hateful.

[deadpie]

This strikes me like a certain family in the u.s.
It is such a stupid thing to dismiss, the idea you can be gay just not act on it. How about all the people opposing gay marriage and gay relations try not being with anyone and fapping to some fucking shit and then come back and say you still say gays shouldn't be allowed to do the same as normal couples. Besides if you look at the translations in the bible you will find that when translating occurred extra words were added.

Leviticus 18:22, the wording of the original Hebrew is very different from the KJV form:


"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind:
it is abomination." [Leviticus 18:22, King James Version]


However, the original Hebrew for Leviticus 18:22 reveals a different 3rd meaning:


We-et-zakar lo' tishkav mishkevey 'ishshah" [Lev 18:22 Hebrew, Latinized]
("And-with a-male NOT lie-down in beds-of a-woman") [Lev 18:22 literal translation]


So, the Hebrew Leviticus 18:22 mentions: someone + a male + a woman; hence, a forbidden 3-way.

Also: "Thou shalt this day be my son-in-law, in the one of the twain." (KJV)

Saul's belief was that David would be so distracted by a wife that he would not be an effective fighter and would be killed by the Philistines. He offered first his daughter Merab, but that was rejected, presumably by her. Then he offered Michal. There is an interesting phrase used at the end of verse 21. In both the NIV and KJV, it would seem that David's first opportunity to be a son-in-law was with the older daughter Merab, and his second was with the younger daughter Michal. The KJV preserves the original text in its clearest form; it implies that David would become Saul's son-in-law through "one of the twain." "Twain" means "two", so the verse seems to refer to one of Saul's two daughters. Unfortunately, this is a mistranslation. The underlined phrase "the one of" does not exist in the Hebrew original. The words are shown in italics in the King James Version; this is an admission by the translators that they made the words up. Thus, if the KJV translators had been truly honest, they would have written:

"Thou shalt this day be my son-in-law, in the twain."

mfw this post gets bothered and the debate keeps going on with no progress for another five pages until a generic insult from a new user gets the thread locked or the thread just dies because more abortion threads get made.

[Obscene Eyedeas]

And I define cat as the animal which has two legs, wings, and a beak. It doesn't mean my definition has any place in a zoological discussion.

This is way off topic but it bugs me. You people are arguing about definitions and others are leaving because they feel insulted. How can you call this a debate? In any debate i have been in when you ignore a valid point and fail to refute it you have already lost. If you wish to argue about definition another thread might serve your purpose.

I don't believe in a hell just an alternative to heaven,I think that homosexuals/bisexuals/trans genders, were BORN that way,or their environment played a part in it.I think no creator would send his children to a hell for being himself or herself,for only humans can show hate to something different,it takes something almost infinite to not be hateful.

Anger exists in every being and hate stems from anger. Gods wrath is apparent in the bible. Also as for hell when we die a sinner we go to sheol not hell and on the final day when judged we as sinners go to gehenna. Hell is another mistranslation of the bible substituting one word for about 5.

Just in case people misunderstand my use of we, i am an atheist.

[anonymous.john]

We-et-zakar lo' tishkav mishkevey 'ishshah" [Lev 18:22 Hebrew, Latinized]
("And-with a-male NOT lie-down in beds-of a-woman") [Lev 18:22 literal translation]


So, the Hebrew Leviticus 18:22 mentions: someone + a male + a woman; hence, a forbidden 3-way.

No, that's not what that means. It's not talking about a 3-way, it's talking about sodomy. With a male do not lie down in beds of a woman. It means that you shouldn't replace the woman with the man, as the woman isn't explicitly mentioned, only her beds (her rightful place, it implies).

So I stand by my statement, the Bible is explicitly anti-homosexual.

[Obscene Eyedeas]

No, that's not what that means. It's not talking about a 3-way, it's talking about sodomy. With a male do not lie down in beds of a woman. It means that you shouldn't replace the woman with the man, as the woman isn't explicitly mentioned, only her beds (her rightful place, it implies).

In almost all English translations of our verse "mishkevey" appears to be translated by the phrase "as with", which would seem to be barmy! In fact this first reaction is not quite fair. Rather, the awkward verse is being paraphrased. The paraphrase is justified on the basis that because the word "mishkevey" can (and here does) mean "to have sex with" (even though it is formally a noun: cf "bed" in English), it is therefore proper for the verse to be transliterated as: "And with a male, thou (O man) shalt not lie down to have sex with a woman". This supposedly obvious nonsense is then rationalized to "And with a male, thou man shalt not lie down like with a woman".
Now, this is rather queer. It becomes queerer on further investigation. The word "mishkevey" occurs forty-six times in the Hebrew Old Testament. The King James version translates it as "bed" or "couch" thirty-five times, and as "bedchamber" a further four times. The remaining seven "miscellaneous renderings" occur in the following verses [Lev 18:22; 20:13] (these two are essentially the same text), [Num 31:17,18,35] and [Jdg 21:11,12]. In the cases of the texts from Numbers and Judges, the word could also have been rendered "bed", as follows:

"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill woman that hath known man-bed male, but all the girls, that have not known a male bed, keep alive for yourselves." [Num 31:17-18]
"And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known a male bed." [Num 31:35]

"And this thing ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male who woman-bed has known. And they found among the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man-bed male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh in the land of Canaan." [Jdg 21:11-12]

So there is no justification for ever translating "mishkevey" as anything other than "bed"! The fact that it has been translated as "as with" in all common English translations of our verse is preposterous, and savours of wilful dishonesty.

Also a word was invented to supposedly describe homosexuality, when a perfectly already known word existed in the Greek.

So I stand by my statement, the Bible is explicitly anti-homosexual.

This is what happens when you translate from one language to another over and over and over. You warp it and then millions follow it without themselves looking into it's translation from the original language.

[Sith Lord 13]

This is way off topic but it bugs me. You people are arguing about definitions and others are leaving because they feel insulted. How can you call this a debate? In any debate i have been in when you ignore a valid point and fail to refute it you have already lost. If you wish to argue about definition another thread might serve your purpose.

But the definition is one of the bases of the framing for my argument. I hold that since the definition of marriage is between a man and a woman, the language should not be changed to suit political correctness. Since I do however support equality, I believe in civil unions for all, which would extend the same rights as marriage currently does.

[Korashk]

But the definition is one of the bases of the framing for my argument. I hold that since the definition of marriage is between a man and a woman, the language should not be changed to suit political correctness. Since I do however support equality, I believe in civil unions for all, which would extend the same rights as marriage currently does.
This is something I like to say to people that hold positions like this:

Language evolves, get used to it.

[Sith Lord 13]

This is something I like to say to people that hold positions like this:

Language evolves, get used to it.

Yes, but the evolution should be natural, not state enforced.

[Korashk]

Yes, but the evolution should be natural, not state enforced.

It's not state enforced. Most people now think that consider the word marriage to cover a union between two people of the same sex. Plus the line of thought that says that marriage has historically referred to a union between a man and a woman is false.

[Sith Lord 13]

It's not state enforced. Most people now think that consider the word marriage to cover a union between two people of the same sex.

Perhaps where you are, but not around here, and I live in a rather liberal area.

[nobodyimportant23]

Im religious, i dont believe gay people go to hell....no one is perfect, and God knows that...I dont know if people are born gay or not, thats a whole other debate

But anyway, I posted a whole rant about this on facebook a while back. There is a group of people that go around the country saying God hates gays, jews, america(everything you could imagine) the only flaw in that is that God does not hate, but since God is our father, he has the ability to be dissapointed...So say it is against Gods will for people to be gay, but they have lived a decent life...on judgment day he would give them the chance to repent.

[Continuum]

on judgment day he would give them the chance to repent.

Homosexuality isn't a sin. It shouldn't be, since it's a completely natural and legitimate set of human behaviors, and of animals too. Why should they repent if God made it possible in the first place? It isn't really against His will.

[Korashk]

Perhaps where you are
I'm in America.

[nobodyimportant23]

Homosexuality isn't a sin. It shouldn't be, since it's a completely natural and legitimate set of human behaviors, and of animals too. Why should they repent if God made it possible in the first place? It isn't really against His will.

Read the whole damn sentence first before you argue with me...I never said it was....I said if it was.

[Continuum]

Read the whole damn sentence first before you argue with me...I never said it was....I said if it was.

Woah, don't get all brutal because of that. I made a gentle mistake.

[nobodyimportant23]

Woah, don't get all brutal because of that. I made a gentle mistake.

sorry

[eatightboy]

dude, i reccomend you check this out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXpOA3jPC04&feature=player_embedded

This is the best speech I've ever heard on the topic.
If you are gay, you're not going to hell. In fact, I don't believe in hell.

[Korashk]

Yes, but the evolution should be natural, not state enforced.
Just realized something. The state halted the evolution of the term marriage with the Defense of Marriage act. In effect, without that we might have more universal acceptance of same-sex unions.

[RoseyCadaver]

Just curious isn't there some hype about King David being homosexual and was Johnathon's partner?

[Death]

Just curious isn't there some hype about King David being homosexual and was Johnathon's partner?

How can we know for sure though? For all we know, history could be full of lies.

[Sith Lord 13]

I'm in America.

I met your section of America.

Just realized something. The state halted the evolution of the term marriage with the Defense of Marriage act. In effect, without that we might have more universal acceptance of same-sex unions.

That was done in response to states trying to change the definition.

[Korashk]

I met your section of America.
A nationwide poll shows that a majority of Americans favor gay marriage. CA linked to it in another topic.

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/20/gay-marriage-opponents-now-in-minority/

[Joshuagoesrawr2]

I don't really know what to say to that. I am bi-sexual with a christian family that i think i will never be able to open up to.

[RoseyCadaver]

How can we know for sure though? For all we know, history could be full of lies.

sigh let me play the worlds smallest violin for you atheist :violin: :P I was saying( even if it is a lie/story)it's saying how there was a king that God love even if he was gay/bi*he had wives too*.There for they should accept homosexuals and stop protesting at funerals xD*!


*I'm not saying all Christians do that ,but there are some bad groups who do.

[Joethegreat1]

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind:
it is abomination." (Leviticus 18:22, King James Version)

I'm Roman Catholic and I interpret these verses as condemning homosexual acts, not homosexuality. Homosexual acts basically means homosexual sex. In the Catechism of the Catholic Church it mentions that "men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies ... must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity."[67] Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided."
The Catholic Church also teaches that sex is meant only between husband and wife, and that homosexuals should practice chastity. Also in the Catechism it says that sex is a gift from God, and it is meant for 2 reasons which are 1: Sex is meant for procreation and the creation of a family and 2:Sex is meant to renew the love between married couples. It is meant as a sacrifice that each person in the couple are giving to each other. Sex is meant for both reasons, and without both it falls flat on its face. So in reality, homosexuals are not condemned, and you will not go to hell for being homosexual. You are just not allowed to have homosexual sex, and it is for the same reason that you are not allowed to have premarital sex or masturbate.

We should all remember that none of us are perfect. Everyone eventually has to sin, even if it is a priest. We are all human. God is always ready to forgive, he holds no grudges. We should also be willing to forgive just as quickly.

[embers]

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind:
it is abomination." (Leviticus 18:22, King James Version)

I'm Roman Catholic and I interpret these verses as condemning homosexual acts, not homosexuality. Homosexual acts basically means homosexual sex. In the Catechism of the Catholic Church it mentions that "men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies ... must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity."[67] Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided."
The Catholic Church also teaches that sex is meant only between husband and wife, and that homosexuals should practice chastity. Also in the Catechism it says that sex is a gift from God, and it is meant for 2 reasons which are 1: Sex is meant for procreation and the creation of a family and 2:Sex is meant to renew the love between married couples. It is meant as a sacrifice that each person in the couple are giving to each other. Sex is meant for both reasons, and without both it falls flat on its face. So in reality, homosexuals are not condemned, and you will not go to hell for being homosexual. You are just not allowed to have homosexual sex, and it is for the same reason that you are not allowed to have premarital sex or masturbate.

We should all remember that none of us are perfect. Everyone eventually has to sin, even if it is a priest. We are all human. God is always ready to forgive, he holds no grudges. We should also be willing to forgive just as quickly.

Leviticus, eh? Do you believe in wearing just one fabric then? Not planting seeds in the corners of a field? Stoning blasphemers? Slavery?

[Death]

sigh let me play the worlds smallest violin for you atheist :violin: :P
Are you talking down to me?

I was saying( even if it is a lie/story)it's saying how there was a king that God love even if he was gay/bi*he had wives too*.There for they should accept homosexuals and stop protesting at funerals xD*!

Although I agree that non-straight people should be given no less fair treatment than straight people, I do not think that the above is very strong as evidence, which I've already explained.

[Joethegreat1]

Leviticus, eh? Do you believe in wearing just one fabric then? Not planting seeds in the corners of a field? Stoning blasphemers? Slavery?

Much of Leviticus is not meant to be taken literally, and much of it was instructions of how to be sanitary. For example, shellfish back then would not be very clean, and eating it could pose huge health risks. And about stoning and slavery? They would not really apply to today, as God has revealed that he condemns both. They were different rules for a different age.

[embers]

Much of Leviticus is not meant to be taken literally, and much of it was instructions of how to be sanitary. For example, shellfish back then would not be very clean, and eating it could pose huge health risks. And about stoning and slavery? They would not really apply to today, as God has revealed that he condemns both. They were different rules for a different age.

You still cannot deny that your God was a madman then. You can't justify dismissing the rest of the laws and then choosing 18:22 just because you want to. That's called picking and choosing your religion, and it's what most religious debaters tend to do. Don't fall into it.

How do you know much of it was not meant to be taken literally? God was laying down a damn code for Moses. If God condemns stoning children for cursing their parents, why did he make it a law in the first place? Why did he change from a violent, greedy, destructive psychopath to some peaceful all-loving deity?

[Φρανκομβριτ]

I'm a gay man, and I also worship god under the church of England. I believe that god has made me the way I am for a reason. He has given me an obstacle to overcome to make me a stronger person, and frankly, I feel he will appreciate my continued effort to live life as a gay person. He loves me for who I am. We are all full of sin. We are forgiven for our sins.

[Death]

I'm a gay man, and I also worship god under the church of England. I believe that god has made me the way I am for a reason. He has given me an obstacle to overcome to make me a stronger person, and frankly, I feel he will appreciate my continued effort to live life as a gay person. He loves me for who I am. We are all full of sin. We are forgiven for our sins.

Leviticus 20:13
Other bible quotes which you can find yourself.

Sure he loves you.

[SirFrankAlot]

Hell is the christains way to scare you into believing what they want. They made it up(along with thier entire religion in my eyes) just so people will believe what they want. A boy onced asked his priest,"if I didnt no about God would I go to Hell?" the priest said "no", They boy then asked "then why did you tell me about him?" th point is, whether there is aa God or not. I dont know, but dont worry about your after life, cause no one alive no's what its like.

[Dorsum Oppel]

[QUOTE=deadpie;1149086]God loves everyone =/= Kills over 400,000 people
This.

Oh, and of course you're going to rot in hell eternally for liking dick, just like you'll go to hell for wearing polyester-cotton blend, or eating meat on a friday, or touching shrimp. This really shouldn't even be a discussion. It's a waste of human mental capacity.

[morbidmonkey]

i think people believe in God to feel um i don't kno... that there is some supreme being watching over them, guiding them. i'm a christian and i believe in God and all that. but i think there's also a reason why he gave us free will. just because something is not in the bible doesn't mean it can't be done. my grandmother is a strist catholic and she's says that homosexuality is wrong. she says they might not go to hell but they're spend a lot of time on pergatory or limbo or whatever u may call. i personally dont believe that but whatever i guess we'll see when we die

[Syvelocin]

Christianity is one hypocritical and ironic mess. The issue is that the bible sort of says that homosexuality is incorrect, but it also says that only God reserves the right to make judgements. While picking and choosing is stupid if you are going to leave your faith on something that dictates both what you believe and what you don't, the ideas of homosexuality being wrong and not judging others do not go hand-in-hand, do they? No textbook-definition Christian believes homosexuality is correct, but no textbook-definition Christian would judge a homosexual. Hmm.

[AllThatYouDreamed]

No textbook-definition Christian believes homosexuality is correct, but no textbook-definition Christian would judge a homosexual. Hmm.

THIS is what pisses me off.
"Yes I'm a good Christan man/woman, and I'm going to say you're going to hell for liking women"
If you were a good christan person, you wouldn't be judging me for my "choices" as you so ignorantly put it.

I struggle with organized religion collaborating with any orientation/gender deviations, however the ideas behind religion can reconcile reasonably well. Religion has united people (albeit, for bad rather frequently), and were it soley about love and acceptance, it would be an LGBTQ+ dream.

[Lethe]

Gender is earthly. Meaning, when we die, we no longer have a gender. We are a simple soul. So why is it that being homosexual in life is wrong when our souls don't have a specific gender anyways? People change genders all of the time. Being attracted to one gender does not equate sin to me. It just doesn't.

[HaydenM]

god loves all no matter what!!!

yep god loves everyone, except ofcoarse the gays, the muslims, the jew, the hindus, the agnostics, the athiests, budists. but yes god loves us all :)

[Nihilus]

I'm jewish, but I don't believe that one will go to hell for being homosexual. The people who believe that gays will go to hell are ignorant and pathetic. God loves you for who are and wants you to be yourself. God won't punish one for being itself.

[Dack]

Some people say it is your choice to be gay. May I present to you the obvious flaw in that statement: Why would you choose to be ridiculed and made fun of everyday in your life? Pretty cruel god if he so gave you the choice to make.

[Death]

I'm jewish, but I don't believe that one will go to hell for being homosexual. The people who believe that gays will go to hell are ignorant and pathetic.

Very true.

God loves you for who are and wants you to be yourself. God won't punish one for being itself.

Not true. The old testament "confirms" that.

[embers]

Not true. The old testament "confirms" that.

That was before he suffered his identity crisis / went through puberty / stopped having tantrums and became all-loving.

[Magus]

I'm jewish, but I don't believe that one will go to hell for being homosexual. The people who believe that gays will go to hell are ignorant and pathetic. God loves you for who are and wants you to be yourself. God won't punish one for being itself.God hates you for being homosexual.

Oh, please, don't cover the fact that God hates Homosexual and Sodomy. It's written in the damn book!

Every Jew, Muslim and Christian knows this. God hates you. Finis.

I hate when the religious goes "Oh, but G-D is love! G-D doesn't hate you! He loves you for what you are(A homosexual)" Nuh uh. It's say right there that Gods hates Homosexuals, throwing them off from a cliff or stone them to death -- if they live on, they suffer in hell, the devils will fist them.

[Death]

That was before he suffered his identity crisis / went through puberty / stopped having tantrums and became all-loving.

LOL. ;)

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't personally forgive him.

[Genghis Khan]

God hates you for being homosexual.

Oh, please, don't cover the fact that God hates Homosexual and Sodomy. It's written in the damn book!

Every Jew, Muslim and Christian knows this. God hates you. Finis.

I hate when the religious goes "Oh, but G-D is love! G-D doesn't hate you! He loves you for what you are(A homosexual)" Nuh uh. It's say right there that Gods hates Homosexuals, throwing them off from a cliff or stone them to death -- if they live on, they suffer in hell, the devils will fist them.

I guess maybe they're dragging their religion into the 21st century, making it undergo a metamorphosis from a tribal God to a peaceful God of the modern era. I don't disagree with that. In fact, that's quite cool. I'd rather that than have people telling me I can't wear clothes with more than one type of cloth without being taken to the city gate and whipped... Yahweh? No-way.

[Iris]

I guess maybe they're dragging their religion into the 21st century, making it undergo a metamorphosis from a tribal God to a peaceful God of the modern era. I don't disagree with that. In fact, that's quite cool. I'd rather that than have people telling me I can't wear clothes with more than one type of cloth without being taken to the city gate and whipped... Yahweh? No-way.

But religion hasn't changed. Society has. The religious texts that exist now are the same as the ones hundreds of years ago. It's only as society changed and became more humanitarian that religions were forced to drop/hide/re-interpret their texts so that people will still follow them. Personally I'm torn between hating hypocrisy (in which case I'd prefer that people either completely follow their religion or completely don't) and not wanting people to get stoned to death for idiotic reasons.

[Magus]

But religion hasn't changed. Society has. The religious texts that exist now are the same as the ones hundreds of years ago. It's only as society changed and became more humanitarian that religions were forced to drop/hide/re-interpret their texts so that people will still follow them. Personally I'm torn between hating hypocrisy (in which case I'd prefer that people either completely follow their religion or completely don't) and not wanting people to get stoned to death for idiotic reasons.

The religious text are also changed. It has underwent a serious editing by people of all castes. From hundred years ago, and from a millennia years ago.

But there are texts that are still not very changed. For example, the stoning of homosexuals. It's a well established fact, no need to hide it or refurbish it now.

And even if some people are trying to water down the heavy texts. There are those hardcore militant religious people that will ardently follow those texts i.e Stone homosexual to death, but because the current society deems it as inappropriate, they have shifted to other methods, like protesting and public-poll banning certain things.

[zuluman78]

I find the idea of punishing a person for being themselves is completely outrageous. Homosexuality isn't a choice, you are born with it, but you do have the choice of expressing it- which is great. It doesn't cause any harm to society so why not? :P The laws against homosexuality were probably just a reflection of that society and culture

[Genghis Khan]

But religion hasn't changed.

Religion has changed drastically and will continue to change. The point was I do not object when religious people actually do think outside their selective reality and say 'you know what, homosexuals aren't that bad, they're God's creation, and since they are, God probably loves them as much as they like us'. If there were more religious people who thought this way, maybe religion has a chance of complete change.

Initially in Christianity, pork and alcohol was also forbidden, but now that those years have gone past, people don't even remember this fact. Barely anyone feels that way about eating shrimp either, or wearing more than one type of cloth, and the other hundreds of tribal traditional rules.

The biggest flaw of religion is not that it's a fairy tale, it is they have taken way too long and in some cases failed to evolve. They were supposed to change as society started to change its views and ways of life, but... of course people were too protective of its purest form.

[Iris]

The religious text are also changed. It has underwent a serious editing by people of all castes. From hundred years ago, and from a millennia years ago.

But there are texts that are still not very changed. For example, the stoning of homosexuals. It's a well established fact, no need to hide it or refurbish it now.

And even if some people are trying to water down the heavy texts. There are those hardcore militant religious people that will ardently follow those texts i.e Stone homosexual to death, but because the current society deems it as inappropriate, they have shifted to other methods, like protesting and public-poll banning certain things.

The main texts remained pretty much the same. All bibles will have the same basic ideas. The change is minimal. And, again, it's all about society's change, how following the texts literally are now "inappropriate" when a few thousand years ago they were completely accepted and no one thought it was inhumane in the slightest, because society was different.

Religion has changed drastically and will continue to change. The point was I do not object when religious people actually do think outside their selective reality and say 'you know what, homosexuals aren't that bad, they're God's creation, and since they are, God probably loves them as much as they like us'. If there were more religious people who thought this way, maybe religion has a chance of complete change.

Initially in Christianity, pork and alcohol was also forbidden, but now that those years have gone past, people don't even remember this fact. Barely anyone feels that way about eating shrimp either, or wearing more than one type of cloth, and the other hundreds of tribal traditional rules

That's exactly my point-the actual religion really hasn't changed-people began choosing what to follow and what to ignore. That means that the society changed. I know from personal experience that in Judaism the laws were often re-interpreted but the text I was taught in school contained the exact same words as those from thousands of years ago.

[Lawliet]

Just adding to the discussion:

I read a document at school that my teacher provided basically summarizing the reason why the Catholic Church does not recognize gay marriage. (I've forgotten the name of the statements).

Its reasons behind it claim that Gay individuals cannot produce children, therefore cannot procreate meaning that their partnership should not be recognize on the same level of marriage which has the ability to procreate.
There were a few other reasons as well, but I don't clearly remember them.

We can also assume considering how revered tradition in with the Church, that it does not accept change easily.

I am not catholic nor am I claiming to support these specific views. I just wanted to contribute something I knew to this discussion.

[HeartCoreHannah]

If you're gay, you're gay. There's nothing you can do to change that. I'm not saying God is or isn't real because I haven't decided whether or not I believe in him yet. But if he is real and you are gay, you're not going to hell. If it truly was a sin, he wouldn't of made you that way in the first place. If he's real he's said to love everyone as they are. So no worries. And if he isn't real then again, no need to be worried. Because you won't be going anywhere except for in the ground.

[Dog Desab]

Question: are our souls gay as well? Cuz The soul is the only part of us that goes to heaven or hell. So how do you determine if your soul is gay? Is it because your body is gay? I don't get it.

[Death]

Question: are our souls gay as well? Cuz The soul is the only part of us that goes to heaven or hell. So how do you determine if your soul is gay? Is it because your body is gay? I don't get it.

That question can't possibly be answered until we define what a soul is.

And even then, why should it matter? Can't gays go to Heaven in religious belief?

[Dog Desab]

That question can't possibly be answered until we define what a soul is.

And even then, why should it matter? Can't gays go to Heaven in religious belief?

Wanna try defining the soul? And apparently they can't.

[Death]

Wanna try defining the soul?

No. Since I'm not religious, I don't have any reason to bother.

And apparently they can't.

But that will only be according to the bigoted malcontents who give religion a bad name. Only a portion of religious people will believe/preach that.

[Dog Desab]

Well ok I guess I'll give it a try. The soul is the essence of who you are. Thats the best I got.

[Death]

Well ok I guess I'll give it a try. The soul is the essence of who you are. Thats the best I got.

Who you are could be anything though. It can range from your personality to your morals and ideals to your profession and your likes. Whether or not your "soul" can be homosexual would depend on which of these apply. In fact, a gay soul would imply that souls have physical attraction to other souls, even after they've left the body. I don't know about you, but I'm not sure if every religious person will find that logical.

[Dog Desab]

Lol true.

[Mackenzie_]

I am Atheistic so I do not believe in Heaven or Hell. I also dislike the thought of people believing in something not proven to be real. But being gay or bisexual wouldn't send you somewhere where you would be tortured or beat. Why should it matter? You are who you are and you were born that way. I mean if there was a such thing as "God" and he forgives all. Why would he send you somewhere described so terrible. I'm not going to a "hell" because I don't believe in your God. So why should anything so simple matter so much.?