Patriotism

[*Dissident*]

Good or Bad? Do you think Patriotism is Retroactive or Proactive? Does is help the world or hurt it? I think it hurts. here are some quotes I like:

“Conceit, arrogance, and egotism are the essentials of patriotism. [...] Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others.” —Emma Goldman

“Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.” —Samuel Johnson, April 7, 1775

“Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.” —Bertrand Russell

“Patriots always talk of dying for their country, and never of killing for their country.” —attributed to Bertrand Russell

“To me, it seems a dreadful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography.” —George Santayana

“When we have undermined the patriotic lie, we shall have cleared the path for the great structure where all shall be united into a universal brotherhood— a truly free society.” —Emma Goldman

[mRojas2000]

I think patriotism is good in the way that you love your country and you are going to defend it no matter what.. here's when the bad part starts... then you hear someone say "Well, America sucks", and this could lead into a problem... I love america, I don't know if I would ever die, or still less kill for america... I wouldn't really care if someone actually screamed "America sucks my balls!". Thats their point of view, and too bad they don't share mine.

[*Dissident*]

Why would I defend my country no matter what? Maybe if we started treating the whole world fairly, instead of just ourselves, and we finally reached the pinnacle of freedom and human goodness, and had strived for peace instead of starting the war ourselves, and the threat was a REAL one, maybe then i would consider defending my country, but the problem is, I think killing is wrong. No matter what

[mRojas2000]

Killing IS wrong... i never said it was... I would never kill for any country... but why?? why would you defend your country no matter what?? because you should feel lucky that you live there, and you don't live in africa, where people starve to death... thank god you were borned there, and that you are save, healthy, there sitting in front of your computer typing about why shouldn't you defend your contry no matter what.

[Phantom]

Why would I defend my country no matter what? Maybe if we started treating the whole world fairly, instead of just ourselves, and we finally reached the pinnacle of freedom and human goodness, and had strived for peace instead of starting the war ourselves, and the threat was a REAL one, maybe then i would consider defending my country, but the problem is, I think killing is wrong. No matter whatSo if china invaded and started gassing us like they have wanted to for some time you would not be out there fighting? I know I sure as hell would. You may call me cold hearted but I find no problem killing people in self defense.

Now for the topic.

BLIND PATRIOTISM is a bad thing, as can be seen in Nazi Germany, they all thought they were patriots and loved their country.

Now Patriotism by itself is good.
Its not just fighting over little spots of land, its fighting for freedom (in US and many other country's cases) its fighting for what your country stands for freedom, justice, everything good we have and all our rights.
You and others seem to think that our freedom and rights that we have in this country are free o but let me tell you something they are far from it. thousands if not millions of good men that loved their country made us this way. I think that my rights and freedoms ARE worth protecting.
You can't protest the government in NK now can you.

What do you think would happen if everybody was unpatriotic?
Well nobody would join the military to protect us and we would be invaded right away and killed.

Now I am joining the military when I turn 18 and it really pisses me off that some people think that its a waste protecting your country and its freedoms.
Or that call our troops that protect us baby killers or any number of other things.

I KNOW that our freedoms and rights are worth protecting. That is why I am patriotic. If you are unpatriotic you basically think that our rights and freedoms are givens which they definitely are not.
You can't go to north Korea and say Dear leader (actually title) I want my freedoms as a human being and my rights, now I think your government sucks are you are a dumb fascist. Well needless to say you would be dead in 2 seconds. Yet in US and other country's you can say that all you want without fear, now I think THAT is worth protecting and is why I love my country and am patriotic.

Now for the quotes

"I like to see a man proud of the place in which he lives. I like to see a man live so that his place will be proud of him". ~Abraham Lincoln

Here is a great one

"A man's country is not a certain area of land, of mountains, rivers, and woods, but it is a principle; and patriotism is loyalty to that principle." ~George William Curtis

"This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave". ~Elmer Davis

"If our country is worth dying for in time of war let us resolve that it is truly worth living for in time of peace." ~Hamilton Fish

... ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.
~ John F. Kennedy

And last but not least one of my personal favorites

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself" - John Stuart Mill

[TheWizard]

I'm not sure what I believe. I will ponder this question and get back to you.

[redcar]

So if china invaded and started gassing us like they have wanted to for some time you would not be out there fighting?
with all due respect, why the hell would China want to do that? it poses no gain to them to do that. China have come to their senses and realised that the way they will dominate is economically.

as for patriotism, i am very patriotic. i am also very Republican as well (not in the American sense, Irish politics is very different) but yea God have mercy on the souls of anyone who tries to interfer with my country.

[Whisper]

I'm very patriotic
Canada kicks ass
It pisses me off though cause americas HUGE on patriotism so canada automatically isnt for the most part

which i think is sad and pathedic

I AM CANADIAN!

[Phantom]

with all due respect, why the hell would China want to do that? it poses no gain to them to do that. China have come to their senses and realised that the way they will dominate is economically.

as for patriotism, i am very patriotic. i am also very Republican as well (not in the American sense, Irish politics is very different) but yea God have mercy on the souls of anyone who tries to interfer with my country.I will find that speech about the general who was giving a speech and basically said this. China needs more living space so they want to annex either Canada US or Australia. They said the best way to do this would be to slaughter us en mass with bio agents to clear out millions of us then the army could clean up. They were also inventing a bio agent that would kill everyone but the "yellow" race. He also said that they took a poll and 80% of the population would have no problem shooting POW's and women and children in a time of war. He said that the 20% that would not have been influenced by human rights ideals from the west and would need to be subject to heavier propaganda.

Its quite obvious that if china could they would annex some more living space for themselves.

[Whisper]

China would never do that
A they dont have the balls
B its not viable

lets use our imagination and say that China did decide they need more room and commiting mass genocide seems like the best way
logically speaking they'd go after Canada were the second largest country on the planet we have one of the largest abundant supply of a wide range of natural rescourses and theres only 32million canadians in existance (roughly the population of california)

the second they decided to attack the Canada/America joint NORAD defence system would light up
fighters would be scrambled from both countries
Americas missile defence system would activate
Chinas attack would be stopped

now China is facing a VERY pissed off Canada and all its NATO allies because under NATO the SECOND you attack one member country your automatically at war with all of them aka America, the United Kingdom, France etc...

and now thered be retaliation
because america espically would be FURIOUS because Canada is its number one ally we depend on eachother we give you a TON of raw power, fresh water, oil, gas, uranium, etc...
not to mention allowing an obivously hostile forgin country to gain a beach head directly in north america right along americas largest land boarder....ohhh i dout they'd allow that
this would be a good time to mention the fact that canada and america have an agreement where you use your nukes to protect us if we were ever to be attacked in such a way....which is fair i guess considering Canada played a huge role in the Manhattan Project which invented the nuclear bomb.....

We both know that IF this were to happen China would NEVER use nukes because...well it'd defeat the purpous now wouldnt it?
but if it looked like they could very well gain a foot hold into canada and then by sheer numbers overwhelm america

then the states would unleash there nukes
its a well known fact america has literally thousands of nukes (5,735 active)
and China has in comparison has a mere handfull (130)

It would be very easy for a trident class nuclear submarine to lay waste to china
and send them back into the stone age

I mean come on
america has allot of biological, chemical, radiological and nuclear weapons of its own

Canada used to have them
but we destroyed them all
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction



so ya
anyway
it wouldnt work

[Phantom]

China would never do that
A they dont have the balls
B its not viable

lets use our imagination and say that China did decide they need more room and commiting mass genocide seems like the best way
logically speaking they'd go after Canada were the second largest country on the planet we have one of the largest abundant supply of a wide range of natural rescourses and theres only 32million canadians in existance (roughly the population of california)

the second they decided to attack the Canada/America joint NORAD defence system would light up
fighters would be scrambled from both countries
Americas missile defence system would activate
Chinas attack would be stopped

now China is facing a VERY pissed off Canada and all its NATO allies because under NATO the SECOND you attack one member country your automatically at war with all of them aka America, the United Kingdom, France etc...

and now thered be retaliation
because america espically would be FURIOUS because Canada is its number one ally we depend on eachother we give you a TON of raw power, fresh water, oil, gas, uranium, etc...
not to mention allowing an obivously hostile forgin country to gain a beach head directly in north america right along americas largest land boarder....ohhh i dout they'd allow that
this would be a good time to mention the fact that canada and america have an agreement where you use your nukes to protect us if we were ever to be attacked in such a way....which is fair i guess considering Canada played a huge role in the Manhattan Project which invented the nuclear bomb.....

We both know that IF this were to happen China would NEVER use nukes because...well it'd defeat the purpous now wouldnt it?
but if it looked like they could very well gain a foot hold into canada and then by sheer numbers overwhelm america

then the states would unleash there nukes
its a well known fact america has literally thousands of nukes (5,735 active)
and China has in comparison has a mere handfull (130)

It would be very easy for a trident class nuclear submarine to lay waste to china
and send them back into the stone age

I mean come on
america has allot of biological, chemical, radiological and nuclear weapons of its own

Canada used to have them
but we destroyed them all
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction[/URL]



so ya
anyway
it wouldnt workYour correct But I was just saying that if China could they probably would.
That speech that general guy made was very sick.

Here [url]http://www.geocities.com/testament1212/ChineseDefenseMinisterTalksWarAgainstUS.html (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_in_Canada)

Chinese Defense Minister Gives Speech About WAR plans against the United States
Says China can only afford to wait another 5 to 10 years before being forced to attack to gain "living space"

[Hyper]

War has nothing to do with 'balls' most ppl who act very cool and so on in reality have no 'balls'

Anyway logicly allmost noone would start WW3 but yes there are maniacs still in controll of brainwashed populations take a wild guess what countries I mean..


I dont realy know in overall I would like to explain you what I think of countries but its pointless, I would only defend my country against genocide and delibrate destruction

[serial-thrilla]

Your correct But I was just saying that if China could they probably would.
That speech that general guy made was very sick.

Here http://www.geocities.com/testament1212/ChineseDefenseMinisterTalksWarAgainstUS.html

Chinese Defense Minister Gives Speech About WAR plans against the United States
Says China can only afford to wait another 5 to 10 years before being forced to attack to gain "living space" if they need living space they wouldnt go after the US or Canada they would just look west and north. mongolia is relitivly large and would be easy to take over.

[Sapphire]

I think blind patriotism (like in USA) can lead to brain washing. Only in the way that the leader could declare war on another country and tell get the support from the public through spouting some crap about how its justified and needs to be done. Example Iraq war.

[Phantom]

I think blind patriotism (like in USA) can lead to brain washing. Only in the way that the leader could declare war on another country and tell get the support from the public through spouting some crap about how its justified and needs to be done. Example Iraq war.LOL! That just shows how much you know.
The president can't do anything without the approval of CONGRESS. He can NOT start war. Most people are to ignorant to realize this. Just about the only thing a president can do is veto stuff, thats it.
Now please don't go making idiotic false examples like this.

Thanks

[0=]

Phantom go read Worse Than Watergate, it's written by the former counsel to Nixon. Also, stop laughing at people's posts, she never said he didn't get congress to do it, she said that he had to spout a lot of shit (which he did) to gain support. You need to realize that none of us are going to take you seriously if you don't stop.

[Phantom]

I didn't mean to be THAT offensive.
I am just sick of tards with their retarded claims that bush can start war whenever he wants! Its just shit pure and simple anybody with 5 minutes of government study can figure that out.
I agree bush spouted glittering generality's (type of propaganda look it up) to gain support but thats no reason to say he can start war whenever he wants!

I swear we learned about checks and balances in 3rd fucking grade.

Bush got elected too.......twice.

I say if you want to bitch about how bush started war like Cindy sheehan look up the names of all the f*cking senators and congressmen that voted for war and bitch at them.
O yeah and Kerry was one of them! Along with a huge assortment of other liberals that were all for it but pussed out later.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WLqIlt39ws


O yeah and BACK ON TOPIC PLEASE!! :D

[0=]

Actually Al Gore won the majority vote and John Kerry now has enough evidence that the election was rigged that if it were still the election, he could take it to court. At the time, the president did have enough power to spew some shit out and get whatever he wanted. Also, this is on topic, if we went to war that easily, there was obviously a lot of blind patriotism.

[Phantom]

:) Actually Al Gore won the majority vote and John Kerry now has enough evidence that the election was rigged that if it were still the election, he could take it to court. At the time, the president did have enough power to spew some shit out and get whatever he wanted. Also, this is on topic, if we went to war that easily, there was obviously a lot of blind patriotism. Majority is not all that wins my friend :)

Please please don't spew crap about how it was rigged I swear any mega liberal will just not accept defeat and keeps insisting Bush cheated.

I agree Bush spewed shit, but that doesn't give him the power to start war.

Like I said the majority of liberals even voted for war, What do you have to say about that. Perhaps they are just stupid. Even Clinton voted for war. Even Kerry voted for war.
And if I recall correctly are you not the ones who always say what a dumbass bush is? well I guess he was smart enough to convince all the liberals to go to war huh plus convince all of congress LOL

Now please just post something original about patriotism, I want to hear what you think.

[0=]

Yes majority doesn't always win because the system has safeguards to make sure the person who would profit the corporations who funded their campaign the most wins. Also, don't bring political parties into this, I don't even fully agree with any single party yet you keep saying "omg you and your stupid liberals are stupid what now?" The fact of the matter is we went to war because of blind patriotism after the 9/11 attacks and some of the most well-staged presidential speeches ever.

[Phantom]

Yes majority doesn't always win because the system has safeguards to make sure the person who would profit the corporations who funded their campaign the most wins. Also, don't bring political parties into this, I don't even fully agree with any single party yet you keep saying "omg you and your stupid liberals are stupid what now?" The fact of the matter is we went to war because of blind patriotism after the 9/11 attacks and some of the most well-staged presidential speeches ever. I can't help but laugh. Its funny because I agree that politics is dirty and people make deals with corporations but I mean the way you say it and WHEN you say it makes you look like an uneducated hippie.

I have not once called you a stupid liberal.

well-staged presidential speeches ever

I guess Bush must not be so stupid after all ;)

We didn't go to war with Iraq until 2003 thats 2 years time.

[0=]

If you need proof that our government is corrupt I have more than 200 pages for you in Worse Than Watergate.

[Phantom]

No I KNOW it is corrupt I completely agree with you there. I don't believe that corporations are behind all of it though, SOME yeah special interest groups soft money donations and hard money donations.

I think I will make a thread :D

[0=]

The energy corporations are making the most off of Bush and Cheney.

[Phantom]

No.
We got more oil from Iraq before the war.
You can't drill for oil in the middle of the war.
Military operation costs dwarf any potential profit.
No major politicians use Oil as a reason its only dumb asses like Micheal Moore, hippy's, and uneducated liberals.

[Makod]

hippy's

I loved the referance to hippies in your post, I laffed for like 5 min lol. Damn useless hippies.

Also, didn't a lot of the oil get burned in the war?