Faith is blind

[deadpie]

Before posting in this thread, I'm ordering you all that want to debate this to actually read the full debate.

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The first two definitions of Faith on Dictionary.com


1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.


Now think about what this would be to mean. Faith is an idea of trusting and believing someone without needing any proof. It's like me saying I have AIDS, but you just trust me because I give a long description about how I got it.

Religion bases its answers on faith and spirituality. So what does that tell you about their beliefs? That they don't need proof for it, but just trust what they're told. Also, if you're looking for the scientific facts in your religion, that's not faithful. You're supposed to trust what you're told!


And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

You know if you have to have faith in higher power, that means you have to agree with every thing he says because you trust that being. No matter what horrible violence he causes, or if he plans to set the world in flames and let us roast in a lake of fire, you have to agree it's good and that his plans are for intentionally good reasons.

Well, faith is fucking stupid.

I don't care how many people it can save, but it's still created something that makes people completely ignorant and closed minded of looking for answers or trying to question a single thing. This thread is a debate on faith in religion. Sorry for not making that clear enough.

Go.

[PJay]

Well, faith is fucking stupid.


^This^

I could probably rant about this quite a bit but it boils down to that in my view too. I honestly feel creeped out by some people who claim to be religious : i'm starting to think there is a kind of mental illness with them. I am very suspicous of anyone who can stop or deliberately ignore their rational thought processes.

[The Dark Lord]

faith is simply not wanting to know what is true

[Fact]

Well, faith is fucking stupid.

I don't care how many people it can save, but it's still created something that makes people completely ignorant and closed minded of looking for answers or trying to question a single thing.


faith is simply not wanting to know what is true

↑ Basically, I agree with both of these statements whole heartedly with regards to religion. I've not actually witnessed or heard of anything useful come out of it.

However, having faith as a stand-alone value is probably the only thing that gets me out of bed (or doesn't) half the time. So when it comes to faith itself, I still have faith in certain things and I'm aware it's essentially useless on its own, but sometimes lying to myself in this way motivates me to do something that I wouldn't have otherwise done without having 'faith' in it.

[PJay]

faith is simply not wanting to know what is true

I'd go with "wanting to not know what is true" myself. I think its deliberate rather than apathy, and its the deliberateness (?) that freaks me a bit : lazy thinkers annoy me too, but i find thats less disturbing.

[Craig1995]

Just a question: why does it bother you so much if a person wants to have faith or believe in religion? It effects you in no way what-so-ever. Only a person with a lack of maturity would be truly angered because they don't want to believe what you believe. I mean seriously are you really trying to tell me you dont have the tolerance to let others believe what they want to? People say they don't like religion because it's pushed in there face, well it's a two way road mate.

[Fact]

Just a question: why does it bother you so much if a person wants to have faith or believe in religion? It effects you in no way what-so-ever.

You might want to seriously re-think that comments when you look out into the world and see all the bullshit conflicts caused by religion and faith. For example, terrorist attacks, wars, the amazing amount of money held and cultivated by churches for selfish reasons etc. etc.

Only a person with a lack of maturity would be truly angered because they don't want to believe what you believe.

I'm not saying "believe that I believe" I'm saying "believing in what you believe in causes monumental amounts of completely avoidable shit".

I mean seriously are you really trying to tell me you dont have the tolerance to let others believe what they want to?

Not really, no. I don't have the tolerance to let people believe that what they believe in is superior when it causes controversy and strife day in and day out. I don't have the tolerance to let people with racist beliefs spit on me because of the beliefs they hold about the colour of my skin or where I come from. I don't have the tolerance to let idiots who come to power ruin my life for their own gain.

Same principle.

People say they don't like religion because it's pushed in there face, well it's a two way road mate.

Their* by the way.
I don't like religion, personally, because it's rubbish being pushed in my face. There's a difference.

[PJay]

Just a question: why does it bother you so much if a person wants to have faith or believe in religion? It effects you in no way what-so-ever. Only a person with a lack of maturity would be truly angered because they don't want to believe what you believe. I mean seriously are you really trying to tell me you dont have the tolerance to let others believe what they want to? People say they don't like religion because it's pushed in there face, well it's a two way road mate.

I assume you are talking to the OP but as I agree with them here's my 2p:

You can believe whatever you want, but I only feel comfortable to believe things that have a basis in provable fact. If you try to convince me the emperor has a great new suit on, and I see a fat naked dude then it doesn't matter what you say to me, I still see nude dude. Doesn't mean I have a problem with you unless you keep bugging me about it.

[Craig1995]

Ok I see where your coming from my comment was Ironically a bit "blind" but every problem in the world isn't caused by religion and now that your specifying what it is that irritates you about religion and faith you should consider doing that firstly because if you don't then it's prejudice Which is just as bad as racism ect.

P.S. Thanks for the spelling correction. English isn't my strong point

[The Dark Lord]

P.S. Thanks for the spelling correction. English isn't my strong point

Well, you come from Glasgow so I wouldn't expect it to be :P

[embers]

Also, if you're looking for the scientific facts in your religion, that's not faithful. You're supposed to trust what you're told!

You can have faith in your religion and still look for scientific facts in it - not because you doubt your religion but because finding facts (not that it's likely) would strengthen your faith quite a bit.

You know if you have to have faith in higher power, that means you have to agree with every thing he says because you trust that being. No matter what horrible violence he causes, or if he plans to set the world in flames and let us roast in a lake of fire, you have to agree it's good and that his plans are for intentionally good reasons.

It really depends on what you have faith in. If you have faith that a higher being simply exists, you don't necessarily have to agree with him. However, if you have faith in the higher being, like most, then yes, you have to agree on every crappy thing that happens.


I don't care how many people it can save, but it's still created something that makes people completely ignorant and closed minded of looking for answers or trying to question a single thing.

Amen to that, religion is the very reason my country is on the verge of collapse. However, religion is the reason my country exists in the first place - also a bad mistake. I'd rather be Indian and India be mildly successful than be Pakistani and have my country in a state of political turmoil, with sectarian violence occurring nearly every day. But then again, if we were all India, and Muslims hadn't split off, there'd still be sectarian violence. So there's conflict all around.

That is why I don't commit myself to a religion (like what the rest of the Pakistanis expected me to do) - I'm not Muslim, but I'm a slight monotheist. As in I'd like to believe an entity was responsible for triggering our creation, but I refuse to believe in the narrow-minded 'truths' put forth by religion and their holy books. Give me the scientific facts and I will believe them, not reject them.

Just a question: why does it bother you so much if a person wants to have faith or believe in religion? It effects you in no way what-so-ever. Only a person with a lack of maturity would be truly angered because they don't want to believe what you believe. I mean seriously are you really trying to tell me you dont have the tolerance to let others believe what they want to? People say they don't like religion because it's pushed in there face, well it's a two way road mate.

Read above, people having such blind faith is the very reason we are slowly crumbling.

It isn't faith that causes stupidity, narrow-mindedness, cruelty and intolerance. It's faith in rubbish that does.

[Craig1995]

Well, you come from Glasgow so I wouldn't expect it to be :P

Well actually I come from Clarkston. Glasgow is just my nearest city. I do not speak like a person from Glasgow I just can't spell.

[The Dark Lord]

Well actually I come from Clarkston. Glasgow is just my nearest city. I do not speak like a person from Glasgow I just can't spell.

It was a joke, I also come from Glasgow.

[Craig1995]

I know. I wasn't attacking you or anything. Lol just thought you should know Its not like I talk like a NED or anything.
Sorry if I came across as a bit bitter

[Fact]

Ok I see where your coming from my comment was Ironically a bit "blind" but every problem in the world isn't caused by religion and now that your specifying what it is that irritates you about religion and faith you should consider doing that firstly because if you don't then it's prejudice Which is just as bad as racism etc.

I've never said that every problem in the world is caused by religion, I did specify the kind of problems I was talking about, which happen to be some of the more prominent problems that then exacerbate smaller problems. Hence the lack of prejudice - I have my reasons and they're valid.

P.S. Thanks for the spelling correction. English isn't my strong point

No problem.

[deadpie]

Just a question: why does it bother you so much if a person wants to have faith or believe in religion?

Why wouldn't it bother me? Those people that have faith are putting their trust in things without needing facts that they're true. You really think I want to surround myself by people who believe any nonsense handed to them without really needing any proof or questioning a bit of it? And because those people that follow those religions don't even know most of the history of their own religion or what most of their scripture might preach.


It effects you in no way what-so-ever.

Unless you're mother is a religious bitch that emotionally abuses her with her own bible. Yeah, it does effect me. And not just in that personal way.

Religion effects many people due to events that happen daily in life. People kill over their faiths, so it does effect me.

And it damn well effects the girl who wanted an abortion, but got blown up by a Christian putting C4 in a planned parenthood.


Only a person with a lack of maturity would be truly angered because they don't want to believe what you believe.

You're right! It's immature to think in more then one point of view. Derp.


I mean seriously are you really trying to tell me you dont have the tolerance to let others believe what they want to? People say they don't like religion because it's pushed in there face, well it's a two way road mate.

Those two roads have a head on collision allot it seems like.

Ok I see where your coming from my comment was Ironically a bit "blind" but every problem in the world isn't caused by religion and now that your specifying what it is that irritates you about religion and faith you should consider doing that firstly because if you don't then it's prejudice Which is just as bad as racism ect.

she never said EVERY problem. If anyone is being prejudice, it's you by this post with your pre judgment on what she thinks.

You can have faith in your religion and still look for scientific facts in it - not because you doubt your religion but because finding facts (not that it's likely) would strengthen your faith quite a bit.

It's unfaithful to look for proof when your 'savior' has already assured it to you. But sure, most of the time when someone wants to look for that proof, they'll "Find it". What I mean is people will want to see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear. Jesus in the cracker, Mary in the toast, Adam carved in the tree. To me it looks like squiggly lines, to them it's proof.


However, if you have faith in the higher being, like most, then yes, you have to agree on every crappy thing that happens.

That's what I meant.

[Sith Lord 13]

↑ Basically, I agree with both of these statements whole heartedly with regards to religion. I've not actually witnessed or heard of anything useful come out of it.

Alcoholics Anonymous?

[PJay]

Alcoholics Anonymous?

Yeah but isn't that just a marketing arm for religion? Yeah they do a lot of good work but so do lots of others without the religious bit. If some religious groups don't get their own way that good will soon vanishes : look at the catholic adoption agencies in the uk. They were told they had to follow the law for all agencies and allow gays to adopt, and they closed down rather than do it.

[Fact]

Alcoholics Anonymous?

Okay, I've now heard one useful thing come out of it.
Actually, thinking more deeply, there are organisations such as Alcoholics Anonymous e.g. Salvation Army etc. that spawn from religious groups, but they aren't in keeping with the idea that having faith suddenly sprouts goodness.

[Amnesiac]

I don't care how many people it can save, but it's still created something that makes people completely ignorant and closed minded of looking for answers or trying to question a single thing.

Go.

I agree. Yes, there are good things that have come out of religion, but in modern times it can be easily argued that it causes more harm than good. Billions of people ignore basic facts so they can stick to God and believe in excuses for answers to questions that don't affect them anyway. Why is it such an urgent necessity to know how life started? In the end, what matters is today and tomorrow, not yesterday.

[deadpie]

Alcoholics Anonymous?

Don't even get me started on that horrible fucking program. I had to go to meetings twice a week during school for a year and a half and outside meetings.

AA isn't a religious group, but a spiritual group by the way. And the program is dumb because it believes that the only way to can get clean is to let 'God' in or else you'll die, become institutionalized, and etc.

The program is making people rely on something else other then them self to help them. One of the main teachings of the big book is saying that everything is your fault and you'll only be forgiven by finishing that second step. That's the same with what drug addicts due with drugs. Most people that go to these meeting end up making these meeting their life. Yeah, their new fix is going to these meetings. They go because they have nothing left for them. It's fucking pathetic. These people can't rely on themselves, but expect something else to give them help.

Also, these groups aren't really as helpful as you think. You don't get to give support to anyone during the meeting like giving them advice. Most of the meeting are closed and you just read from the "Big Book". When meetings are open you just talk on the current subject or what is going on lately, nobody can interrupt or comment on what you said. A sponsor isn't a therapist. It's just someone to help you with your twelve steps. And the twelve steps aren't always that helpful to people.

Prayer is mental masturbation, something you do to make you feel good just for about five or ten minutes, but it really doesn't help that much. It's that simple pretend to care and pretend to fix things non-solution solution.

[KillerKing]

Personally, I think that religion is simply just another method of control really, It's the idea of, Obey these rules or a terrible thing will happen, In the Bible's case it's Obey the rules or you will burn in hell, but to me, that's just the same as society really. If you don't obey the law then you are punished, sent to prison, fined etc... I find that putting your faith into something such as God which purely relies on belief, weakens that person. Not in a physical way but, let's say for example, a person is suffering abuse from other people, and every night prays to 'God' that the suffering will go away, all they do is create hope for themselves, instead of dealing with the problem directly...

All I'm saying is that (like my signature) you need to look at a more open view than adhere to a single idea, in this case, God.

[Craig1995]

Deadpie you have unbelievably managed to miss my point. My point is that religious people have every right to believe in what they want to. And my second point is only the most arrogant of people, who are filled with a passionate HATRED would insist on ignoring the good things that come from religion. Did you know the red cross published a report in 2002 which revealed that the people who died from things that they helped with would have Been 49% higher if it weren't for donations from churches. Meaning almost double as many people survived because of an organisation which wouldn't be here If it weren't for FAITH. And did you know that a lady called Anna who is 36 I think joined our church last summer- ish she said if it weren't for the support she received from my church and it's members she would have committed suicide because a psychiatrist was not enough for her did you know that the church of Scotland petitioned eight tomes I know of to convince the British government to avoid war in Iraq. I think you'll find more good comes my church than evil. Its not faith that causes problems. It's people like you who can't accept others faith lies else where that causes problems. People who can't leave well enough alone that causes problems. That's what it boils down to in the end.

[deadpie]

Deadpie you have unbelievably managed to miss my point. My point is that religious people have every right to believe in what they want to. And my second point is only the most arrogant of people, who are filled with a passionate HATRED would insist on ignoring the good things that come from religion.

You're implying. Good one!


Did you know the red cross published a report in 2002 which revealed that the people who died from things that they helped with would have Been 49% higher if it weren't for donations from churches. Meaning almost double as many people survived because of an organisation which wouldn't be here If it weren't for FAITH.

Army of God, Clayton Waagner, Donald Spitz, KKK, James Charles Kopp, Lambs Of Christ, CSA Cult, Michael Bray, Lord's Resistance Army, Westboro Baptist Church, Phineas Preisthood...

There's also religious organizations that cause violence and hatred.


And did you know that a lady called Anna who is 36 I think joined our church last summer

No, I don't know a random woman that goes to your church in Glasgow because I'm from Texas in the Americas.


- ish she said if it weren't for the support she received from my church and it's members she would have committed suicide because a psychiatrist was not enough for her did you know that the church of Scotland petitioned eight tomes I know of to convince the British government to avoid war in Iraq.

And what about the catholic boy who killed himself because when he was trying to find faith a pastor had a dick inside of him?


I think you'll find more good comes my church than evil. Its not faith that causes problems. It's people like you who can't accept others faith lies else where that causes problems. People who can't leave well enough alone that causes problems. That's what it boils down to in the end.

Faith does cause problems. I've said it before - it causes ignorance making people blind without thinking in more then one point of view.

Also, you must of not read most of my first post because I covered what faith causes negatively.

[Sage]

Is it so wrong to advocate that people not believe in things without good reasoning and justification? Why do some people here so vehemently defend the right to hold baseless beliefs? Yes, one does have that right, but that doesn't mean there's any virtue in exercising it.

[The Joker]

Y'know, I can easily say that there is a flying, invisible unicorn that likes to read poems by Robert Frost in my living room. There is no way you can prove that wrong. If I have faith in it, it MUST be true! If it's true for me, it has to be true for you, of course.

What faith ignores is true, critical thinking. Faith is saying that you're going to believe something that has no actual proof- you're closing your mind off to new vantage points because they contradict your faith. People seem to think it's a sign of weakness if you change your viewpoints, that's why they stay "strong" with their belief in faith.

You know, you can't get much stronger than to consider a new idea. It takes true strength to actually admit your previous idea is wrong, and to accept something if you know it makes more sense than your current belief system.

[Ihaveleftforever]

The bible has been proven true well alot of it has been. such as them finding pieces of the ark for EX.... there is proof that it is real.

HE IS THE WAY THE TRUTH AND LIFE WE LIVE BY !FAITH! AND NOT BY SIGHT!
For you living it all for youu

[CaliKid24]

The bible has been proven true well alot of it has been. such as them finding pieces of the ark for EX.... there is proof that it is real.

HE IS THE WAY THE TRUTH AND LIFE WE LIVE BY !FAITH! AND NOT BY SIGHT!
For you living it all for youu

yeah the bible is very true, ecspecially the part where people lived to be hundreds of years old.

in my own opinion, and i am using the catholic church as an example, for 2000 years they have been powerful, in the beginnings of the church, only priests were able to have a bible, and no one else could read it. i believe the catholic church is just looking for money and power. i believe religion causes most of the worlds problems.

[embers]

What faith ignores is true, critical thinking. Faith is saying that you're going to believe something that has no actual proof- you're closing your mind off to new vantage points because they contradict your faith. People seem to think it's a sign of weakness if you change your viewpoints, that's why they stay "strong" with their belief in faith.

That's saying faith = religion. It doesn't. Faith is faith, you can have faith in the simplest of things. You can have faith that your friends are good people and can help you in times of trouble, for example.

It isn't that having faith in something requires you to reject other viewpoints. If your faith is proven wrong then you have the chance to change your views. It's just people who deny facts and refuse to accept in anything other than their faith that are doing wrong.

[PJay]

That's saying faith = religion. It doesn't. Faith is faith, you can have faith in the simplest of things. You can have faith that your friends are good people and can help you in times of trouble, for example.

It isn't that having faith in something requires you to reject other viewpoints. If your faith is proven wrong then you have the chance to change your views. It's just people who deny facts and refuse to accept in anything other than their faith that are doing wrong.

Exactly. I can't have faith in god, but if I saw compelling evidence I'd be relieved to know that all the terrible things that happen to people are actually some plan that results in them getting some great karmic reward later on or something.

I said eariler in this thread, its the people who switch off common sense, who actively edit their reality by ignoring facts and contradictions really disturb me, whether its caused by "Faith" in god(s) or whatever.

[Amnesiac]

The bible has been proven true well alot of it has been. such as them finding pieces of the ark for EX.... there is proof that it is real.

Lol, no. Just no.

From at least the time of Eusebius (c. 275 – 339 AD) to the present day, the search for the physical remains of Noah's Ark has held a fascination for many people. Despite many rumours, evidence, sightings and expeditions, no solid proof of the ark has been found.

HE IS THE WAY THE TRUTH AND LIFE WE LIVE BY !FAITH! AND NOT BY SIGHT!
For you living it all for youu

Faith ≠ truth. It's based on random ideas which have absolutely no scientific evidence backing them up. I'm sorry, but if you decide to abandon reality ("AND NOT BY SIGHT!") so you can abide by some essentially man-made religion, you are quite deluded indeed.

[Craig1995]

Lol, no. Just no.





Faith ≠ truth. It's based on random ideas which have absolutely no scientific evidence backing them up. I'm sorry, but if you decide to abandon reality ("AND NOT BY SIGHT!") so you can abide by some essentially man-made religion, you are quite deluded indeed.


You and not one other person can tell anyone there is not a god because you do not know. That is FACT. As for religion in particular Christianity it has been proven Jesus existed wether son of god or not. On top of that the new testiments are largely made up of letters from a person to a church. These weren't written as novels. Gospels were diaries not novels. When a person says it's just a person that sat down and wrote a book then they don't know what there talking about. There's actually quite Alot of science behind the bible. Particlarly the star of Bethlehem:In 3–2 BC, there was a series of seven conjunctions, including three between Jupiter and Regulus and a strikingly close conjunction between Jupiter and Venus near Regulus on June 17, 2 BC. "The fusion of two planets would have been a rare and awe-inspiring event", according to Roger Sinnott. This event however occurred after the generally accepted date of 4 BC for the death of Herod.

Astronomer Michael Molnar has proposed a link between a double occultation of Jupiter by the moon in 6 BC in Aries and the Star of Bethlehem, particularly the second occultation on April 17.This event was quite close to the sun and would have been difficult to observe, even with a small telescope, which had not yet been invented. Occultations of planets by the moon are quite common, but Firmicus Maternus, an astrologer to Roman Emperor Constantine, wrote that an occultation of Jupiter in Aries was a sign of the birth of a divine king."When the royal star of Zeus, the planet Jupiter, was in the east this was the most powerful time to confer kingships. Furthermore, the Sun was in Aries where it is exalted. And the Moon was in very close conjunction with Jupiter in Aries".

If you find this likely theory invalid because of your obvious emmense intellect look it up on google there's hundreds of astronomical phenomina around the time of the birth of Jesus which is anywhere between 10 bc and 8 AE all of which have scientific basis.

[Continuum]

Astronomer Michael Molnar has proposed a link between a double occultation of Jupiter by the moon in 6 BC in Aries and the Star of Bethlehem, particularly the second occultation on April 17.This event was quite close to the sun and would have been difficult to observe, even with a small telescope, which had not yet been invented. Occultations of planets by the moon are quite common, but Firmicus Maternus, an astrologer to Roman Emperor Constantine, wrote that an occultation of Jupiter in Aries was a sign of the birth of a divine king."When the royal star of Zeus, the planet Jupiter, was in the east this was the most powerful time to confer kingships. Furthermore, the Sun was in Aries where it is exalted. And the Moon was in very close conjunction with Jupiter in Aries".


Well, if they haven't got the technology, how come they ended up with such conclusion?


If you find this likely theory invalid because of your obvious emmense intellect look it up on google there's hundreds of astronomical phenomina around the time of the birth of Jesus which is anywhere between 10 bc and 8 AE all of which have scientific basis.

But hey, coincidences happen. It's like, connect the dots.

Then after some time when a random person decided to sell a toast with the supposed image of Mary. Why? Because people assumed it was the Virgin Mary. Yay Capitalism!

[deadpie]

You and not one other person can tell anyone there is not a god because you do not know. That is FACT. As for religion in particular Christianity it has been proven Jesus existed wether son of god or not.

Jesus didn't exist. His character in The Bible: There is deities much older then him and Jesus has displayed to fit most of there stories AKA he wasn't original. His character was created and inspired off of others like Hercules, Zarathustra, Krishna, Asklepios and many more.

Many people that say historical records have proof actually don't say anything about Jesus. Some of those 'texts' were fake and created by a bishop around 200-300 AD.


There's actually quite Alot of science behind the bible.

"Science"

Matthew 16:1 The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tried to test him by asking for a sign from heaven.
Matthew 16:2 He told them: If the sky is red in the evening, you say the weather will be good.
Matthew 16:3 But if the sky is red and gloomy in the morning, you say it is going to rain. You can tell what the weather will be like by looking at the sky. But you don't understand what is happening now.




Particlarly the star of Bethlehem:In 3–2 BC, there was a series of seven conjunctions, including three between Jupiter and Regulus and a strikingly close conjunction between Jupiter and Venus near Regulus on June 17, 2 BC. "The fusion of two planets would have been a rare and awe-inspiring event", according to Roger Sinnott. This event however occurred after the generally accepted date of 4 BC for the death of Herod.

Astronomer Michael Molnar has proposed a link between a double occultation of Jupiter by the moon in 6 BC in Aries and the Star of Bethlehem, particularly the second occultation on April 17.This event was quite close to the sun and would have been difficult to observe, even with a small telescope, which had not yet been invented. Occultations of planets by the moon are quite common, but Firmicus Maternus, an astrologer to Roman Emperor Constantine, wrote that an occultation of Jupiter in Aries was a sign of the birth of a divine king."When the royal star of Zeus, the planet Jupiter, was in the east this was the most powerful time to confer kingships. Furthermore, the Sun was in Aries where it is exalted. And the Moon was in very close conjunction with Jupiter in Aries".

If you find this likely theory invalid because of your obvious emmense intellect look it up on google there's hundreds of astronomical phenomina around the time of the birth of Jesus which is anywhere between 10 bc and 8 AE all of which have scientific basis.

Nice copypasta off wikipedia sir.

Link from where you copied and pasted. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_Bethlehem)

And most astronomy is bullshit.

From Robin Lane Fox -


Bethlehem was not Jesus’ birthplace but was imported from Hebrew prophecies about the future Messiah; the Star had similar origins (Numbers 24:17). Matthew’s story is a construction from well-known messianic prophecies (Bethlehem; the Star), and the Wise Men (Magi) have been added as another legend.



Also, I'll give you 20 bucks if you can explain the universal flood without copying and pasting off of wikipedia.

[Amnesiac]

You and not one other person can tell anyone there is not a god because you do not know. That is FACT.

I like how this has nothing to do with the reply I posted. Noah's Ark is bullshit. I never said anything about God specifically.

As for religion in particular Christianity it has been proven Jesus existed wether son of god or not. On top of that the new testiments are largely made up of letters from a person to a church. These weren't written as novels. Gospels were diaries not novels. When a person says it's just a person that sat down and wrote a book then they don't know what there talking about. There's actually quite Alot of science behind the bible. Particlarly the star of Bethlehem:In 3–2 BC, there was a series of seven conjunctions, including three between Jupiter and Regulus and a strikingly close conjunction between Jupiter and Venus near Regulus on June 17, 2 BC. "The fusion of two planets would have been a rare and awe-inspiring event", according to Roger Sinnott. This event however occurred after the generally accepted date of 4 BC for the death of Herod.

Astronomer Michael Molnar has proposed a link between a double occultation of Jupiter by the moon in 6 BC in Aries and the Star of Bethlehem, particularly the second occultation on April 17.This event was quite close to the sun and would have been difficult to observe, even with a small telescope, which had not yet been invented. Occultations of planets by the moon are quite common, but Firmicus Maternus, an astrologer to Roman Emperor Constantine, wrote that an occultation of Jupiter in Aries was a sign of the birth of a divine king."When the royal star of Zeus, the planet Jupiter, was in the east this was the most powerful time to confer kingships. Furthermore, the Sun was in Aries where it is exalted. And the Moon was in very close conjunction with Jupiter in Aries".

And you just copied all of this from Wikipedia without even citing it? Also, what does this have to do with what I was talking about anyway?

If you find this likely theory invalid because of your obvious emmense intellect

Why thank you.

look it up on google there's hundreds of astronomical phenomina around the time of the birth of Jesus which is anywhere between 10 bc and 8 AE all of which have scientific basis.

Again, why are you talking about this?

I can copy from Wiki too!

Many scholars, seeing the Gospel Nativity stories as later apologetic accounts created to establish the Messianic status of Jesus, regard the Star of Bethlehem as nothing more than a pious fiction; there are several aspects of Matthew's account which give reason to doubt that an actual historical event is being portrayed. Matthew is the only one of the four gospels which mentions either the Star of Bethlehem or the magi. The author of the Gospel of Mark, considered by modern text scholars to be the oldest of the Gospels, does not appear to be aware of the Bethlehem nativity story. A character in the Gospel of John states that Jesus is from Galilee, and not Bethlehem. The Gospels often described Jesus as "of Nazareth," but never as "of Bethlehem". Some scholars suggest that Jesus was born in Nazareth and that the Bethlehem nativity narratives reflect a desire by the Gospel writers to present his birth as the fulfillment of prophecy.

[Craig1995]

Yeah I searched it on wiki nice of you to notice. May I ask when I said I didn't??? I thought it was prejudice to assume my opinion.
And commander awesome am I to assume you are placing faith in your quote. Where's your hard scientific proof. After all I thought faith was the problem here?
The load of crap ( that yes I copied and pasted because I have little knowledge in the science of it I only remember it vaguely in a church service) was just to put forward the argument that yes there is some science behind some aspects of the bible.

You can tell me the star of Bethlehem was an astronomical coincidence if you want but it's no more valid than saying it isn't because you have no more evidence against than I have for it.

As I said befor one person who celebrates and holds faith causes no problems in this world. It's people who retaliate against there faith that cause a problem. Kinda like this thread it's a retaliation against faith. But wait the OP dosent like faith so I assume he dosent hold faith. So this problem was caused because of no faith: interesting.

[Perseus]

Why is Christianity right, Craig. The Jewish religion arose in Mesopotamia by the Semites. They had the first monotheistic religion ca. 1200 BC or 2000. I forgot, but I know it is in that time period. In the beginning, only the Semites could follow that religion. They were pastoral nomadic, by the way. People in their surrounding area were polytheistic and sedentary farmers. They devised their religion based on their landscape, i.e. the Sumerians had harsh, vengeful gods, where as in contrast, the Egyptians did not because the Nile did not kill people like the Euphrates and Tigris rivers did. All religion is man made. What makes Christianity any different? Why would God let all these cultures before the Semites worship their gods and not tell them? Why would different cultures form different religions? To answer the same question - how did we get here? Why do certain things happen?

[deadpie]

Yeah I searched it on wiki nice of you to notice. May I ask when I said I didn't??? I thought it was prejudice to assume my opinion.

When copying and pasting information from a site, it's respectful to leave a source instead of making it look like you wrote it.


And commander awesome am I to assume you are placing faith in your quote. Where's your hard scientific proof. After all I thought faith was the problem here?
The load of crap ( that yes I copied and pasted because I have little knowledge in the science of it I only remember it vaguely in a church service) was just to put forward the argument that yes there is some science behind some aspects of the bible.

Most of it has been proven wrong and supernatural events are not valid to be proven by the scientific method, making them not scientific and false.


It's people who retaliate against there faith that cause a problem. Kinda like this thread it's a retaliation against faith. But wait the OP dosent like faith so I assume he dosent hold faith. So this problem was caused because of no faith: interesting.

How many wars have atheists started again?

Also, remember about that twenty dollar deal I said? I'm still waiting...

[Amnesiac]

And commander awesome am I to assume you are placing faith in your quote. Where's your hard scientific proof. After all I thought faith was the problem here?

Sigh. If you had bothered to click on the Wiki link, you would've seen the citations for that quote. In addition, as Tim said, most religious stories are so vague and absurd that they can't be tested using the scientific method anyway.

This all leads back into the great flood and Noah's Ark. After centuries of searching and virtually no scientific evidence to support such a theory, it's been concluded it's just creationist fiction.

You can tell me the star of Bethlehem was an astronomical coincidence if you want but it's no more valid than saying it isn't because you have no more evidence against than I have for it.

If you had read my quote and checked out the citations you'd see most historians consider it fiction.

As I said befor one person who celebrates and holds faith causes no problems in this world. It's people who retaliate against there faith that cause a problem. Kinda like this thread it's a retaliation against faith. But wait the OP dosent like faith so I assume he dosent hold faith. So this problem was caused because of no faith: interesting.

Faith causes problems because it convinces people that they can come up with excuses for the real answers to things, leading to a mindset where progress is bad. Faith is the reason why, almost 200 years later, people are still challenging evolutionary theory. Faith is the reason why we still have bloody conflict in so many regions of the world — the Balkan Peninsula, the Middle East, Tibet and pretty much all of Africa to name a few. Faith is the reason why we still discriminate against groups of people: first it was women, now it's homosexuals. Because faith leads people to ignore basic common sense, convinces them to hold on to absurd social values that discriminate against thousands of people, war over "holy lands" and "sacred grounds", and fight against scientific progress and slow down the intellectual advance of the human race is why it is so dangerous and counter-productive. Don't blame the world's problems on atheists and the non-faithful. We make up a measly 2% of the population. We're constantly spit on by religious conservatives. We have no political power. We have never started wars. This is not because of us, if anyone is to blame for the world's problems, it's the religious fanatics.

[Craig1995]

In his bestseller "The God Delusion," Richard Dawkins contends that most of the world's recent conflicts – in the Middle East, in the Balkans, in Northern Ireland, in Kashmir, and in Sri Lanka – show the vitality of religion's murderous impulse.

The problem with this critique is that it exaggerates the crimes attributed to religion, while ignoring the greater crimes of secular fanaticism. The best example of religious persecution in America is the Salem witch trials. How many people were killed in those trials? Thousands? Hundreds? Actually, fewer than 25. Yet the event still haunts the liberal imagination.

It is strange to witness the passion with which some secular figures rail against the misdeeds of the Crusaders and Inquisitors more than 500 years ago. The number sentenced to death by the Spanish Inquisition appears to be about 10,000. Some historians contend that an additional 100,000 died in jail due to malnutrition or illness.

These figures are tragic, and of course population levels were much lower at the time. But even so, they are minuscule compared with the death tolls produced by the atheist despotisms of the 20th century. In the name of creating their version of a religion-free utopia, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong produced the kind of mass slaughter that no Inquisitor could possibly match. Collectively these atheist tyrants murdered more than 100 million people.

Moreover, many of the conflicts that are counted as "religious wars" were not fought over religion. They were mainly fought over rival claims to territory and power. Can the wars between England and France be called religious wars because the English were Protestants and the French were Catholics? Hardly.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1121/p09s01-coop.html ( I don't know how to create links on my I- pod)

Although this analysis isn't flawless in it's opinions it kinda sums up what I'm trying to say

The twenty dollar thing I don't understand. Do you want me to describe the story of Noah's ark??

[Amnesiac]

In his bestseller "The God Delusion," Richard Dawkins contends that most of the world's recent conflicts – in the Middle East, in the Balkans, in Northern Ireland, in Kashmir, and in Sri Lanka – show the vitality of religion's murderous impulse.

The problem with this critique is that it exaggerates the crimes attributed to religion, while ignoring the greater crimes of secular fanaticism. The best example of religious persecution in America is the Salem witch trials. How many people were killed in those trials? Thousands? Hundreds? Actually, fewer than 25. Yet the event still haunts the liberal imagination.

It's well known that the United States does not have a history of religious persecution. Racial, yes, but religious, no. It doesn't make sense to counter an argument that religion causes conflict by using an example from a region where there is no religious conflict.

It is strange to witness the passion with which some secular figures rail against the misdeeds of the Crusaders and Inquisitors more than 500 years ago. The number sentenced to death by the Spanish Inquisition appears to be about 10,000. Some historians contend that an additional 100,000 died in jail due to malnutrition or illness.

Click here. (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstatz.htm#RelCon)

If you add up the death tolls from all the wars on that list, it ends up being roughly 809 million people.

These figures are tragic, and of course population levels were much lower at the time. But even so, they are minuscule compared with the death tolls produced by the atheist despotisms of the 20th century. In the name of creating their version of a religion-free utopia, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong produced the kind of mass slaughter that no Inquisitor could possibly match. Collectively these atheist tyrants murdered more than 100 million people.

Hitler was not an atheist. This is widely accepted. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_views#Views_as_an_adult)

As for Stalin and Zedong, their actions were not taken out in the name of religion but rather to take down people who revolted against their respective communist revolutions. You see, in communism, there is a period known as the "dictatorship of the proletariat" where the society of a nation is converted to fit communist standards. During this dictatorship, those against the proposed changes are silenced in some way or another. To suggest that Stalin and Zedong killed people purely out of contempt of religion isn't accurate. Actually, it's absurd; a claim made by someone who doesn't know jack shit about how a communist society is supposed to function.

Atheism is defined only as a disbelief in God. Adding any other values to that is 100% wrong. Atheism doesn't tell people to kill other people, unlike religion. Atheism doesn't tell anyone to do anything, therefore you can't attribute anything to it. Religions have their commandments and holy laws, which influence the decisions of people and who they discriminate against, while atheism leaves everything up to the individual. Nothing can be carried out in the "name of atheism", that would require adding something to atheism besides a disbelief in God, which one can't do because that's all atheism is.

Moreover, many of the conflicts that are counted as "religious wars" were not fought over religion. They were mainly fought over rival claims to territory and power. Can the wars between England and France be called religious wars because the English were Protestants and the French were Catholics? Hardly.

But there were also many wars over religion. (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstatz.htm#RelCon) Take the entire Middle Eastern conflict and every war in the Balkans. The wars over Israel, for a specific example, is fought over the "holy land" that Muslims, Christians and Jews all claim as their own. In Africa, an unorganized departure of the European powers resulted in different religious groups suddenly sharing the same territory. Needless to say, continued warring between religious sects in Africa is the reason why it's so unstable, especially in regions like Sudan.

[deadpie]

In his bestseller "The God Delusion," Richard Dawkins contends that most of the world's recent conflicts – in the Middle East, in the Balkans, in Northern Ireland, in Kashmir, and in Sri Lanka – show the vitality of religion's murderous impulse.

The problem with this critique is that it exaggerates the crimes attributed to religion, while ignoring the greater crimes of secular fanaticism. The best example of religious persecution in America is the Salem witch trials. How many people were killed in those trials? Thousands? Hundreds? Actually, fewer than 25. Yet the event still haunts the liberal imagination.

It is strange to witness the passion with which some secular figures rail against the misdeeds of the Crusaders and Inquisitors more than 500 years ago. The number sentenced to death by the Spanish Inquisition appears to be about 10,000. Some historians contend that an additional 100,000 died in jail due to malnutrition or illness.

You know much about the Salem Witch Trials? They killed based off no proof, but just faith in them self that those people were witches. It's the same idea with what people do with religion. Do what they do based on faith without proof, or false proof. Superstition can NEVER be proven


These figures are tragic, and of course population levels were much lower at the time. But even so, they are minuscule compared with the death tolls produced by the atheist despotisms of the 20th century. In the name of creating their version of a religion-free utopia, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong produced the kind of mass slaughter that no Inquisitor could possibly match. Collectively these atheist tyrants murdered more than 100 million people.

That's funny, because Adolf Hitler wasn't an atheist. That site that you're using has false information. Of course they'll make whatever they want to fit their needs because it's a christian winged site. It's the same way with any other religious group - they'll pull false things to prove their points, but it's all bullshit. Also, there is very many violent christians that have lived too.

I hate this as "Proof" that atheism is wrong. You have to remember that Hitler was also insane. And you have to actually understand the philosophies of Stalin before bludgeoning to death.


Moreover, many of the conflicts that are counted as "religious wars" were not fought over religion. They were mainly fought over rival claims to territory and power. Can the wars between England and France be called religious wars because the English were Protestants and the French were Catholics? Hardly.

What captain obvious said. He beat me to it.



Although this analysis isn't flawless in it's opinions it kinda sums up what I'm trying to say

You're letting a site with false information show your opinion? That's pretty funny. You should always question your sources and make sure that source is reliable. A one way religion based site isn't a good source.


The twenty dollar thing I don't understand. Do you want me to describe the story of Noah's ark??

No, I mean prove that there actually was a universal flood without just blobbing out copypasta from unreliable websites.

[enzenzz]

Faith is good. Faith gives hope.

The problem is people are stupid and let other people manipulate them.

Money today is based on faith. It's not backed by anything other than a promise that the govt will print more money. LOL

I think what you really want to argue is not faith but rather religion. It is not faith that declared wars, it is religion. Religion is based on people and people are flawed.

[deadpie]

Faith is good. Faith gives hope.

The problem is people are stupid and let other people manipulate them.

Money today is based on faith. It's not backed by anything other than a promise that the govt will print more money. LOL

I think what you really want to argue is not faith but rather religion. It is not faith that declared wars, it is religion. Religion is based on people and people are flawed.

I'm arguing about faith in religion.

And faith over all is dumb. You should never trust and believe something just because, without actually analyzing and looking in multiple choices to make sure if that thing is really worth faith.

People aren't generally stupid. Hell, we're allot smarter then we were a hundred years ago.

[Craig1995]

So isn't your problem really that people are willing to die because of there faith by all means I condemn terrorism actually I have a passionate hate for terrorism, but it's not just people with faith who cause these problems. everyone with faith out the world there would be less of these problems. But the left over people, if I were to take them out and plunge all the people who had faith back in there'd still be less conflict and problems. Just look at the Iraq war: all because some bastard needed oil. They lied and told us they had WMD's they quite clearly didn't. But where was religions part in this?

[Perseus]

So isn't your problem really that people are willing to die because of there faith by all means I condemn terrorism actually I have a passionate hate for terrorism, but it's not just people with faith who cause these problems. everyone with faith out the world there would be less of these problems. But the left over people, if I were to take them out and plunge all the people who had faith back in there'd still be less conflict and problems. Just look at the Iraq war: all because some bastard needed oil. They lied and told us they had WMD's they quite clearly didn't. But where was religions part in this?

Craig, you are not answering questions and points people have raised. You just write new posts that have nothing to do with anything. How about you actually debate instead of being butthurt. I want you to refute my post.
Why is Christianity right, Craig. The Jewish religion arose in Mesopotamia by the Semites. They had the first monotheistic religion ca. 1200 BC or 2000. I forgot, but I know it is in that time period. In the beginning, only the Semites could follow that religion. They were pastoral nomadic, by the way. People in their surrounding area were polytheistic and sedentary farmers. They devised their religion based on their landscape, i.e. the Sumerians had harsh, vengeful gods, where as in contrast, the Egyptians did not because the Nile did not kill people like the Euphrates and Tigris rivers did. All religion is man made. What makes Christianity any different? Why would God let all these cultures before the Semites worship their gods and not tell them? Why would different cultures form different religions? To answer the same question - how did we get here? Why do certain things happen?

[Craig1995]

Judaism is the roots of Christianity, Christianity is the completion of many jewish prophecys. The end of the world may well be the completion of Christian prophecy. Jews were just Christians befor Christ. If you count from the beginning of the growth of judaism till christ then cristianity from the beginning of the converts to the present day it is possibly one of the longest lasting wide spread faiths in the history of the intellectual human. Meaning there's something people see in that particular faith. Something makes sence and something sticks. That's why I believe christianity is the true faith.

I personally and many other Christians don't change there views because it is widely believed within the Christian community that the devils best way to device man is to convince him god dosent exist and to give other possibilities for man to toy with.

God gave people free will. Search the free will defence in google if u must learn more. This Is a possible answer as to why god didn't come down and start danceing infront of people before the Semites.

Please don't take me as an idiot because I am Christian. I am a member of a church, of the Christian union and my part time divinity course application starting in autumn has been accepted. At least I can comment accurately on my faith when I defend it.

[Noooooooooo]

I agree with deadpie. Faith is some BS. Faith just makes people believe things that are not even proven to exist. I fell sorry for people with believes. They just believe in what is writen in a book called ''The Bible''. They believe some rules from a book. That is just sad. I'm just saying that relligion manipulates alot of people.

Nothing is true, everything is permited :P

[Perseus]

God gave people free will. Search the free will defence in google if u must learn more. This Is a possible answer as to why god didn't come down and start danceing infront of people before the Semites.
It's not free will if God is omnipotent.

Please don't take me as an idiot because I am Christian. I am a member of a church, of the Christian union and my part time divinity course application starting in autumn has been accepted. At least I can comment accurately on my faith when I defend it.
I never though you as an idiot, nor have I talked down to you.

[Craig1995]

Well yes god is all powerful but he is also what Christians refer to as sovereign. This means that if god says something he MUST keep his word unconditionally. So when he said you are not allowed to eat the apple but if you must you may he meant it. When god said it would result is a worse off world he meant it. When god said he wanted us to love him he meant reall love so he said we may choose to love him or we may refuse.
And actually the free will defence is widely used.

[PJay]

Well yes god is all powerful but he is also what Christians refer to as sovereign. This means that if god says something he MUST keep his word unconditionally.

This is all starting to sound very Harry Potter.

There have been a couple of thousand years to come up with a bunch of rules and explanations about the whole thing to try to tie together all the holes and it still flakey.

[Syvelocin]

Here we go again. Generalizing faith and religion.

I don't think all faith and religion is bad. I hate it when unknowledged people make choices without even thinking about other options. I fell victim to that as well when I was a kid. I was Christian only because I was told God existed. I didn't choose Christianity.

Luckly, the years rolled by and I matured, and started to question everything. I read up on different religions, something I find barely anyone does before saying they're Christian or Jewish or whatever. Ask many kids who were raised Christian, what is Buddhism about? Or Shintoism? Or even the question that so many people get wrong, do modern Satanists believe in Satan? The percentage of them who will get these questions correct is sadly small. We take the bullshit we're fed and consume it until we actually, truly believe in that delusion. I have no problem with Abrahamic religions. However, if you didn't choose that religion and just took the crap your parents and priests fed you, well, that I have problems with.

And just for the record, I'm religious :P

[KylieEatWorld]

I'll be the odd one out here.

To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.

Not to be mean but this quote here can end all debates on religion. If you have a cynical or analytical view of all religious beliefs then all you will see is absurdity. My opinion of faith is that it is a beautiful aspect of the human heart/mind. It's a leap or an instinct that tells you in your gut that you will trust the words of a person, company, or religion.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is not blind. Faith is evidence in and of itself. It's the belief that when you wake up today you'll fix your grades, be nice to your sibling, win first place in track, proof that your friend is lying to you regardless of what others are saying, that the child support check will finally come and the electricity bill will be payed. Faith is what keeps people going in their day to day routines and keeps hope alive. Faith doesn't have to pertain to religion. Although religion always pertains to faith.

If you think you can win, you can win. Faith is necessary to victory.

Faith is in the heart, the mind, or the soul depending on how you'd like to see it. Faith is like love, trust, friendship, and sympathy. You can't see it nor prove it's there but you can feel it. If it is blind then who cares? It's still necessary for life.

[Perseus]

Well yes god is all powerful but he is also what Christians refer to as sovereign. This means that if god says something he MUST keep his word unconditionally. So when he said you are not allowed to eat the apple but if you must you may he meant it. When god said it would result is a worse off world he meant it. When god said he wanted us to love him he meant reall love so he said we may choose to love him or we may refuse.
And actually the free will defence is widely used.

My Google Chrome crashed typing this. -_-

You're not seeing the point, though. If God were omnipotent, etc., we don't have free will. If we have free will, God is not omnipotent. If God knowingly knows what we do in this life and condemns us for us because of his "Divine Plan", then he is sadistic. But that's where modern Christianity doesn't make sense since Hell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell#Christianity) was never referred to in the Bible as brimstone and fire and that's where "evil" people go.

I forgot what I initially said since my browser crashed, so sorry.

[Jenna.]

I'll be the odd one out here.



Not to be mean but this quote here can end all debates on religion. If you have a cynical or analytical view of all religious beliefs then all you will see is absurdity. My opinion of faith is that it is a beautiful aspect of the human heart/mind. It's a leap or an instinct that tells you in your gut that you will trust the words of a person, company, or religion.



Faith is not blind. Faith is evidence in and of itself. It's the belief that when you wake up today you'll fix your grades, be nice to your sibling, win first place in track, proof that your friend is lying to you regardless of what others are saying, that the child support check will finally come and the electricity bill will be payed. Faith is what keeps people going in their day to day routines and keeps hope alive. Faith doesn't have to pertain to religion. Although religion always pertains to faith.



Faith is in the heart, the mind, or the soul depending on how you'd like to see it. Faith is like love, trust, friendship, and sympathy. You can't see it nor prove it's there but you can feel it. If it is blind then who cares? It's still necessary for life.

I agree with you. I'm not understanding why everyone has decided to completely bash all aspects of faith. Faith is only bad when the people believing in it are ignorant and close minded. That's when it becomes what some might call dangerous.
And yeah, I'm religious. Not one of those super religious freaks, but I believe in God, and I made that choice, my parents/family didn't choose for me. I know a lot about the other religions, I haven't been "hidden" from them or whatever you would call it. If that makes me an idiot to all of you people than so be it. It's not fair to generalize all religious people and assume they're uneducated morons based on their beliefs. That's bad too. Tbh it's not just the super religious people who sit around attacking the atheists, etc. They do it a LOT too.

[deadpie]

I'll be the odd one out here.

Faith is not blind. Faith is evidence in and of itself.

Faith is not evidence. It's hope, but not always truth.


It's the belief that when you wake up today you'll fix your grades, be nice to your sibling, win first place in track, proof that your friend is lying to you regardless of what others are saying, that the child support check will finally come and the electricity bill will be payed. Faith is what keeps people going in their day to day routines and keeps hope alive. Faith doesn't have to pertain to religion. Although religion always pertains to faith.

How does that have anything to do with faith? That's just knowing what's going to go on throughout the day - expectations. You're saying a bunch of nothing right now.



Faith is in the heart, the mind, or the soul depending on how you'd like to see it. Faith is like love, trust, friendship, and sympathy. You can't see it nor prove it's there but you can feel it. If it is blind then who cares? It's still necessary for life.

" You can't see it nor prove it's there but you can feel it. " - You just contradicted yourself. You said faith is evidence, but then say faith isn't proof. Pick one already.

I care if it's blind. Blind people would run into streets without guidance or knowing what they're doing. Hell, faith might makes someone happy, but it doesn't free them of their ignorance, whether you like it or not.



I wasn't brought up Christian nor is anyone in my family Christian. Religion and culture is kinda an area I took interest in and so found my belief preference which in my opinion does not harm anyone. Which ties back to my original point it's not faith that creates problems it's people.
I think it's worth your time knowing that I'm not really ignorant to other possibilities I looked about Alot before I came to my decision. I just found my religion through god I suppose. People might think I'm mad but the feeling you get when you truly believe in god and love him is really quite indescribable. I guess that's why I believe in him because now I've searched for him he's let me find him

I'm not trying to be an asshole or anything, but this is a debate thread, not lets share our personal experiences thread.

[Craig1995]

I wasn't brought up Christian nor is anyone in my family Christian. Religion and culture is kinda an area I took interest in and so found my belief preference which in my opinion does not harm anyone. Which ties back to my original point it's not faith that creates problems it's people.
I think it's worth your time knowing that I'm not really ignorant to other possibilities I looked about Alot before I came to my decision. I just found my religion through god I suppose. People might think I'm mad but the feeling you get when you truly believe in god and love him is really quite indescribable. I guess that's why I believe in him because now I've searched for him he's let me find him

[PJay]

I'll be the odd one out here.

It's a leap or an instinct that tells you in your gut that you will trust the words of a person, company, or religion.

So an irrational delusion then.


Faith is not blind. Faith is evidence in and of itself.

Okayyyy. Its right because its right.


It's the belief that when you wake up today you'll fix your grades, be nice to your sibling, win first place in track, proof that your friend is lying to you regardless of what others are saying, that the child support check will finally come and the electricity bill will be payed.

And how do you cope when none of that stuff works out? Again, its just self delusion, surely?



It's still necessary for life.
I seem to be alive.



That Hazlitt quote is hilarious. Vietnam, anyone? The real world doesn't work like that, sorry.

[Sith Lord 13]

It's well known that the United States does not have a history of religious persecution. Racial, yes, but religious, no. It doesn't make sense to counter an argument that religion causes conflict by using an example from a region where there is no religious conflict.

The federal government, no, but as illustrated by the Salem Witch trials, the colonies did have religious persecution.

[Perseus]

The federal government, no, but as illustrated by the Salem Witch trials, the colonies did have religious persecution.

Very heavily, at that.

[Amnesiac]

The federal government, no, but as illustrated by the Salem Witch trials, the colonies did have religious persecution.

True, but still, even the colonies didn't have as much discrimination as regions like the Middle East.

[Perseus]

True, but still, even the colonies didn't have as much discrimination as regions like the Middle East.

Sure they did. The Bible was their law. If you wen't against anything said in the Bible, you were punished, whether it was death or something else.

[Amnesiac]

Sure they did. The Bible was their law. If you wen't against anything said in the Bible, you were punished, whether it was death or something else.

I meant that there weren't regional wars or genocides committed in the colonies, unlike in the Middle East.

[Perseus]

I meant that there weren't regional wars or genocides committed in the colonies, unlike in the Middle East.

Oh. :P

[Amnesiac]

Oh. :P

Exactly. :rolleyes:

[KylieEatWorld]

Faith is not evidence. It's hope, but not always truth.

It's evidence of things not seen. Pay attention to my quotes, silly.

How does that have anything to do with faith? That's just knowing what's going to go on throughout the day - expectations. You're saying a bunch of nothing right now.

They have faith in those expectations. Regardless of how likely it is. It keeps them going every day. Putting up with life. Faith, Hope, or Blind Expectations. It keeps them going.

" You can't see it nor prove it's there but you can feel it. " - You just contradicted yourself. You said faith is evidence, but then say faith isn't proof. Pick one already.

I care if it's blind. Blind people would run into streets without guidance or knowing what they're doing. Hell, faith might makes someone happy, but it doesn't free them of their ignorance, whether you like it or not.

It can be evidence and not tangible. Prove happiness exists. Prove that happiness helps situations. You can observe it happening.

Faith is not ignorance. Ignorance is not being aware of the facts. Faith is a belief of things that cannot be determined. The existence of a God can be a form of faith. You can't prove there is a God. You can't prove there is not a God. Faith helps them believe in a God.

[deadpie]

It's evidence of things not seen. Pay attention to my quotes, silly.

If it can't be seen, then it can't be proven. That's not evidence!

They have faith in those expectations. Regardless of how likely it is. It keeps them going every day. Putting up with life. Faith, Hope, or Blind Expectations. It keeps them going.

Who has faith doing this? Are you speaking for everyone or a certain group of people? Making it through the day isn't always faithful or based on hope. You can be depressed and pissed off, but you're likely going to make it through the day (unless you kill yourself).


It can be evidence and not tangible. Prove happiness exists. Prove that happiness helps situations. You can observe it happening.

Human emotion and Biblical evidence are two different things. I never said faith doesn't exist, but I said it's dumb and blind.


Faith is not ignorance. Ignorance is not being aware of the facts. Faith is a belief of things that cannot be determined. The existence of a God can be a form of faith. You can't prove there is a God. You can't prove there is not a God. Faith helps them believe in a God.

Not being aware of the facts. Exactly. When you put in something that doesn't have any facts to be proven true, then that's ignorance.

You can prove that a religion isn't true, but nobody knows if there really is a higher being. It could be nothing that anyone has ever though of before. It doesn't fucking matter. The idea is that faith with religion is bad.

And this thread is about faith in religion and a higher power, not faith in general.

[Sith Lord 13]

I meant that there weren't regional wars or genocides committed in the colonies, unlike in the Middle East.

Because the real reason for those wars is territory, and religion is being used as a scapegoat. The colonies had plenty of room to expand, hence no need to make war.

[Amnesiac]

Because the real reason for those wars is territory, and religion is being used as a scapegoat. The colonies had plenty of room to expand, hence no need to make war.

Eh, I guess you could argue that, but I wouldn't call the Arab-Israeli conflicts over the past 60 years purely territorial. Those wars are strongly based off of religion, since the "promised land" is, well, promised to both Muslims and Jews (or so they both claim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Israeli_conflict#Religious_aspects_of_the_conflict)).

[Sith Lord 13]

Eh, I guess you could argue that, but I wouldn't call the Arab-Israeli conflicts over the past 60 years purely territorial. Those wars are strongly based off of religion, since the "promised land" is, well, promised to both Muslims and Jews (or so they both claim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Israeli_conflict#Religious_aspects_of_the_conflict)).

No, but for both of them their religion is a key part of their culture. It's more a clash of cultures than of religions. The religion is the justification, not the reason.

[Continuum]

Eh, I guess you could argue that, but I wouldn't call the Arab-Israeli conflicts over the past 60 years purely territorial. Those wars are strongly based off of religion, since the "promised land" is, well, promised to both Muslims and Jews (or so they both claim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Israeli_conflict#Religious_aspects_of_the_conflict)).

First come first serve: The Jews came first before the Muslims.

No, but for both of them their religion is a key part of their culture. It's more a clash of cultures than of religions. The religion is the justification, not the reason.

I'm at the midpoint of this. I believe it's mostly political, if you look up its history.

[Perseus]

No, but for both of them their religion is a key part of their culture. It's more a clash of cultures than of religions. The religion is the justification, not the reason.

There wouldn't even be a war going on if they didn't just walk in there and take the land.

[Craig1995]

Who has faith doing this? Are you speaking for everyone or a certain group of people? Making it through the day isn't always faithful or based on hope. You can be depressed and pissed off, but you're likely going to make it through the day (unless you kill your self)


Emm I'm pretty sure im not going to be hit by a bus today.. But I might be. It's faith that I have to rely on if I'm to be sure I make it through the day. I am pretty sure I'm going to wake up tomorrow but I might not. It's faith to believe I will. I find it unlikely I'll killed with a blow to the head but I might be, quite sure I'm not going to come down with a deadly disease, blind my self, break my leg, crack my head open, fall into a coma, be in a car crash, break my back.
No one knows if they will make it through the day, there's a good chance but to believe in that chance it requires faith.

[The Dark Lord]

Emm I'm pretty sure im not going to be hit by a bus today.. But I might be. It's faith that I have to rely on if I'm to be sure I make it through the day.

No, It's looking both sides of the road when crossing that you rely on.

[Craig1995]

No, It's looking both sides of the road when crossing that you rely on.



Or I could be playfully pushed by a fried resulting in landing on the road, I could be pushed or knocked over by a passer by in a rush, I could trip over my own feet and also land on the road the bus has to take time to stop and it could hit me.

[The Dark Lord]

Or I could be playfully pushed by a fried resulting in landing on the road, I could be pushed or knocked over by a passer by in a rush, I could trip over my own feet and also land on the road the bus has to take time to stop and it could hit me.

I think the point I was making was that faith has fuck all to do with getting hit by a bus

[deadpie]

Emm I'm pretty sure im not going to be hit by a bus today.. But I might be. It's faith that I have to rely on if I'm to be sure I make it through the day.

Did you read a word I said? Making it through the day isn't always based on faith. You could be depressed and know what's probably going to happen the whole day, but it doesn't mean you have faith at all.


I am pretty sure I'm going to wake up tomorrow but I might not. It's faith to believe I will. I find it unlikely I'll killed with a blow to the head but I might be, quite sure I'm not going to come down with a deadly disease, blind my self, break my leg, crack my head open, fall into a coma, be in a car crash, break my back.
No one knows if they will make it through the day, there's a good chance but to believe in that chance it requires faith.

I don't need faith to make it out of the day alive. All I need is to not do anything likely to kill me or get near something likely to kill me. Yes, you can control making it through the day, unless it's the fucking nuclear apocalypse. Why do you think people make those safety guides for what to do in case of natural disasters? They prepare you for them.

Or I could be playfully pushed by a fried resulting in landing on the road, I could be pushed or knocked over by a passer by in a rush, I could trip over my own feet and also land on the road the bus has to take time to stop and it could hit me.

Stop taking things in literal terms. You sound like a troll and you're getting completely off topic.