Religion and a message to some of VT

[Oby.]

This is for the handful of people on this website who constantly find it necessary to criticize and degrade religion. My question is simply this.... Why?

Why the flying fuck do you handful of people find it necessary to express such trolling opinion that offend billions of people? Do you just enjoy trolling? Do you like to preach your words of wisdom? Do you just like to read posts like this?

A lot of the stuff the people have posted that I have read constantly refer to the way religion ruins the goodness of people by making them do horrible things. Here's my response: shut the fuck up. Not every religion follower is so madly driven by it that they feel the need to kill and fight others over it. Religion does not hurt people: it's the dumb people that follow the religion that hurt people.

Stop being so ignorant and realize that people like you are what are causing people to fight back in order to defend their religion. It's human nature. If someone would fight to defend their children or siblings, then that same someone will fight to defend their religion, so why do you only criticize the religion related one? Are you so consumed by your unsurity of the existence of a superior being that you find ways to say things that are very well developed and meant to attack religion?

I'm religious, but that's not why I'm posting this. I'm posting this because it shocks me to see how people can troll about something that causes others harm *which is really meant to bring good* when you are getting people like me pissed, and starting the harm in the first place.

Why can't you shut up? Honestly. Why can't we just be friends? I can assure you, if all religions and nonreligions - if people would just get together and be nice, your troll comments would have no meaning. And don't tell me it's a hopeless cause to fight for, because with an attitude like that, ya, it is hopeless. You're showing no hope in the first place.

Let me share a little fact with you guys. There is one thing in the Bible (I'm Christian btw) that I slightly disagree on. And the only reason I disagree with it is because it is exaggerated by peoples stupidity. I disagree with the way people preach. A lot of the people in this world choose to preach by pointing to a persons face and saying "YOUR RELIGION IS WRONG."

WTF? Who are you to have the right to say one religion is the truth and the others are BS. Almost every follower of a Religion follow it because they were born into a household that followed it. They had no choice but to follow it, and chances are, they built a bond with it that cannot be broken easily. So think about it. What's to stop God - or any god - from saying, "I shall judge your faith in me by the way you treated the religion you were raised to follow, and I will act as if it was my own." Why is that so hard to believe?

Also, you handful of people that I called out one beginning of this thread are like my religious pet peeve. You preach your words of, I guess atheism, by telling us our religions are nonsense that mean nothing but harm.

So please, the handfull of people I'm calling out, reply. Answer my questions, I very much wish to hear your philosophy.

(Also, this was written on my iPod at 3 o clock-ish, so excuse some grammatical/spelling errors or stuff that make no sense (I edited it so there won't be too many errors) and even though I'm slightly pissed... HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!!!!!!)

[deadpie]

Why the flying fuck do you handful of people find it necessary to express such trolling opinion that offend billions of people? Do you just enjoy trolling? Do you like to preach your words of wisdom? Do you just like to read posts like this?

Get this straight - Being honest isn't trolling. We on VT like to argue about religion because allot of us teenagers have had it pushed in our face. I certainly don't like a bit of it. And if someone's offended by words, they really need to toughen up.


A lot of the stuff the people have posted that I have read constantly refer to the way religion ruins the goodness of people by making them do horrible things. Here's my response: shut the fuck up.

Well, that's mature and very well thought out. You might just get an infraction for that one.


Not every religion follower is so madly driven by it that they feel the need to kill and fight others over it. Religion does not hurt people: it's the dumb people that follow the religion that hurt people.

But religion HAS hurt people. There is SOME people that do kill others over it. Not everyone, but the fact that there is people.

Also, God kills over 400,000 people in the bible. I think that's enough to say that Christianity alone is violent


Stop being so ignorant and realize that people like you are what are causing people to fight back in order to defend their religion.

People should be open to seeing different points of view. I think every religious and nonreligious person should see all sides of the field - with and without a higher power.


It's human nature. If someone would fight to defend their children or siblings, then that same someone will fight to defend their religion, so why do you only criticize the religion related one? Are you so consumed by your unsurity of the existence of a superior being that you find ways to say things that are very well developed and meant to attack religion?

I attack religion because it's something that has been pushed on me my entire life. I'm an atheist because I know there is no higher power. You don't have to agree with me. I don't have to agree with you.

But guess this straight - I'm not the one telling people to "Shut the fuck up". I'm civilly debating what you just wrote. That's the difference between you and me.


I'm religious, but that's not why I'm posting this. I'm posting this because it shocks me to see how people can troll about something that causes others harm *which is really meant to bring good* when you are getting people like me pissed, and starting the harm in the first place.

Deal with it. Seriously? There's people on VT with problems and the last thing most of them want to hear is the message of God.


Why can't you shut up? Honestly. Why can't we just be friends?

WE CAN'T BE FRIENDS BECAUSE YOU JUST TOLD ME TO SHUT UP.




I can assure you, if all religions and nonreligions - if people would just get together and be nice

Except you hate nonreligious people, so that statement is hypocritical.



your troll comments would have no meaning.

Except they do, because you made this thread.


Also, you handful of people that I called out one beginning of this thread are like my religious pet peeve. You preach your words of, I guess atheism, by telling us our religions are nonsense that mean nothing but harm.

Because your religion is nonsense. Most people don't even know what your religion believes in. You know that the bible says it's ok to beat your slave as long as you don't kill it.

The Bible also says the earth has four corners.

You don't have to agree with me, but you should listen to what me and others have to say and respect we have an opinion. Fuck, respect the fact that people are let alone honest. Honesty is the best fucking thing you will find in people.


I like how you say "Here's my response: shut the fuck up", but then say, "the handfull of people I'm calling out, reply. Answer my questions, I very much wish to hear your philosophy." I love how users like you that come once a month to post the same topic always seem to contradict themselves. It also tends that the religious ones are the most vulgar in their debates.

If you reply to this thread, it'll probably just be something of even more vulgar language, poorly executed debating, and you trying to forget everything I've said so you can convince yourself that you're correct.


Get this - VT is not a place where people preach religon, but preach help and guidance in our own way. We came here to help each other without giving people what they've been shown before. VT is not a religious community, psych ward, counselors office, but a group of teenagers helping teenagers. It's fucking beautiful.

[MoveAlong]

How about this:

Damn there are a lot of bitches on this site. Get over yoselfs homedawgs. There's more to life than opposition.

[The Joker]

I'll be friends with religion when it stops drinking, mentally abusing me, accusing me of shit, and generally being a major assfuck.

OHWAIT~ that's the people I know who are religious. Just like you're generalizing all atheists you know, I can generalize the Christians I know.

[Kahn]

http://picture.funnycorner.net/funny-pictures/4782/Natural-Selection.jpg

[georgiamay]

Why the flying fuck do you handful of people find it necessary to express such trolling opinion that offend billions of people?

I have a few things to say about this:

1) Religious people don't have to listen if they don't want to, so if they just didn't pay any attention to those that "offend" them, there wouldn't be a problem.

2) Nothing happens if someone gets offended. You don't have to be offended by what other people say if it goes against your religion. If I hear someone say something that I completely disagree with that goes against everything I believe in, I don't have to get offended. I can just sit there and go, "ok" and be done with it.

3) Why would religious people bother getting offended by it? The people that they believe are "offending" them are going to hell anyway, supposedly.

Stop being so ignorant and realize that people like you are what are causing people to fight back in order to defend their religion

I thought it was religions that fought against each other? There have been a lot of religious wars.

Personally, I'm an atheist. I respect religion though. If people want to believe in God, I'm cool with that, I actually come from a religious family. I don't preech my beliefs of there being no higher power at all. But I do dislike religion. I think if there was no religion, the world would be a better place (cheesy, I know, but it's true). I'm an atheist for a lot of other reasons as well, but I'm not going to bother going into them. I don't see any reason why religious people should get annoyed with me because I tell them that I disagree with them, I mean, if I'm wrong, I'm going to hell anyway.

[Daniel_]

I like how he thinks atheists are the ones expressing, and trying to force their beliefs onto others. When actually, it's Christians who never shut the fuck up. I can prove this. I commented on a friends status of mine and used the word "shit". Well, she has a religious family, and apparently her second cousin saw my post and sent me an inbox PM. I really want to show you what it said, but it seems in my rage I quickly sent him like a 5 paragraph essay on why hes a dumb ass fuck who should mind his own business and let me be me, while he can be himself.

Then I blocked him.


And besides, at least we don't have priests who rape little boys.

[Donkey]

I'm agnostic and rationalistic but I respect others' beliefs, whatever they are. For me, that's the end of it.

[Rutherford The Brave]

You know why I don't believe in a Higher power in my life, Its because I'm the highest power in my life. Seeing as Im in control of it.

[Sith Lord 13]

This is for the handful of people on this website who constantly find it necessary to criticize and degrade religion. My question is simply this.... Why?

Because for many people, being wronged by an institution inspires bitterness.

Why the flying fuck do you handful of people find it necessary to express such trolling opinion that offend billions of people? Do you just enjoy trolling? Do you like to preach your words of wisdom? Do you just like to read posts like this?

Each side has it's evangelists. What I find ironic is that many on the side of atheism decry religious evangelists for trying to influence others, while at the same time trying to influence others themselves.

A lot of the stuff the people have posted that I have read constantly refer to the way religion ruins the goodness of people by making them do horrible things. Here's my response: shut the fuck up. Not every religion follower is so madly driven by it that they feel the need to kill and fight others over it. Religion does not hurt people: it's the dumb people that follow the religion that hurt people.

While I agree that religion has been an excuse, not a reason for murder, and that we'd have no less strife were religion to go poof, that's no reason to loose one's temper.

Stop being so ignorant and realize that people like you are what are causing people to fight back in order to defend their religion. It's human nature. If someone would fight to defend their children or siblings, then that same someone will fight to defend their religion, so why do you only criticize the religion related one? Are you so consumed by your unsurity of the existence of a superior being that you find ways to say things that are very well developed and meant to attack religion?

Each side is going to argue for what they believe in.

I'm religious, but that's not why I'm posting this. I'm posting this because it shocks me to see how people can troll about something that causes others harm *which is really meant to bring good* when you are getting people like me pissed, and starting the harm in the first place.

Harm starts on both sides.

Why can't you shut up? Honestly. Why can't we just be friends? I can assure you, if all religions and nonreligions - if people would just get together and be nice, your troll comments would have no meaning. And don't tell me it's a hopeless cause to fight for, because with an attitude like that, ya, it is hopeless. You're showing no hope in the first place.

It's human nature to be combative. As long as people think differently from one another, there will be arguments.

Let me share a little fact with you guys. There is one thing in the Bible (I'm Christian btw) that I slightly disagree on. And the only reason I disagree with it is because it is exaggerated by peoples stupidity. I disagree with the way people preach. A lot of the people in this world choose to preach by pointing to a persons face and saying "YOUR RELIGION IS WRONG."

Again, both sides do this, though I will admit on this sit it's mostly the atheists.

WTF? Who are you to have the right to say one religion is the truth and the others are BS. Almost every follower of a Religion follow it because they were born into a household that followed it. They had no choice but to follow it, and chances are, they built a bond with it that cannot be broken easily. So think about it. What's to stop God - or any god - from saying, "I shall judge your faith in me by the way you treated the religion you were raised to follow, and I will act as if it was my own." Why is that so hard to believe?

Because many religions don't preach that.

Also, you handful of people that I called out one beginning of this thread are like my religious pet peeve. You preach your words of, I guess atheism, by telling us our religions are nonsense that mean nothing but harm.

And there are Christians who feel atheists are a plague upon this country.

Get this straight - Being honest isn't trolling.

That's not true Tim and you know it. To go to a fat person and tell them they're fat may be true, but it's still trolling.

We on VT like to argue about religion because allot of us teenagers have had it pushed in our face. I certainly don't like a bit of it. And if someone's offended by words, they really need to toughen up.

While I agree with you, there's been some excessive vitriol at times on this site.


But religion HAS hurt people. There is SOME people that do kill others over it. Not everyone, but the fact that there is people.

Also, God kills over 400,000 people in the bible. I think that's enough to say that Christianity alone is violent

Religion is merely the crutch people use to give them an excuse. If religion disappeared, the number of wars would not diminish, people would simply find new excuses.

People should be open to seeing different points of view. I think every religious and nonreligious person should see all sides of the field - with and without a higher power.

I feel that's something everyone here would agree to. It's simply the manner in which some choose to share their alternative view points which can cause issues.

I attack religion because it's something that has been pushed on me my entire life. I'm an atheist because I know there is no higher power. You don't have to agree with me. I don't have to agree with you.

You don't have to agree with him, but you have to admit you know there is no god the same way he knows there is a god. Saying you know that in terms of a debate is factually impossible.

But guess this straight - I'm not the one telling people to "Shut the fuck up". I'm civilly debating what you just wrote. That's the difference between you and me.

The vitriol from some atheists here has been no less severe than he's been.

Deal with it. Seriously? There's people on VT with problems and the last thing most of them want to hear is the message of God.

For some it may be helpful. You can't deny religion has saved lives over the years. I'm not even talking about charities, since there would still be charities even if there were no religion. I'm talking about people who, through their faith in god, managed to positively change their lives.

WE CAN'T BE FRIENDS BECAUSE YOU JUST TOLD ME TO SHUT UP.

He didn't tell you. He told those people who make it their mission in life to deride religion whenever it comes up.

Except you hate nonreligious people, so that statement is hypocritical.

Strawman much? He hates those who repeatedly and doggedly attack religion, in spite of the personal good it's done people.

Except they do, because you made this thread.

So you're saying every time you've argued against religion, it's been trolling? That you're arguments don't really mean anything?

Because your religion is nonsense.

That right there is an inflammatory comment. It doesn't serve to move the debate forward, just to enrage.

Most people don't even know what your religion believes in.

The fact that the mass population is either not intelligent enough or not interested enough to learn about a religion not their own is a mark against the religion how?

You know that the bible says it's ok to beat your slave as long as you don't kill it.

The bible was a text written for it's time. Progress must come slowly.

The Bible also says the earth has four corners.

People say they've been to the four corners of the world all the time. It's an expression. Regardless, the bible was never meant to teach scientific truths.

You don't have to agree with me, but you should listen to what me and others have to say and respect we have an opinion. Fuck, respect the fact that people are let alone honest. Honesty is the best fucking thing you will find in people.

I completely agree with you hear, and I believe, although I can't speak for him, that the OP feels the same way. His issue is with those who attack religion whenever they can, not people making logical arguments is the appropriate places.

I like how you say "Here's my response: shut the fuck up", but then say, "the handfull of people I'm calling out, reply. Answer my questions, I very much wish to hear your philosophy." I love how users like you that come once a month to post the same topic always seem to contradict themselves. It also tends that the religious ones are the most vulgar in their debates.

At least in my experience, I've seen the opposite. Religious people have often been willing to say "Your belief is not my belief, but just live and let live" where as atheist have continued to hound people.

Get this - VT is not a place where people preach religon, but preach help and guidance in our own way. We came here to help each other without giving people what they've been shown before. VT is not a religious community, psych ward, counselors office, but a group of teenagers helping teenagers. It's fucking beautiful.

You're absolutely right Tim. But when it comes to ROTW, the fact that someone is religious, and is putting forward a pro-religion argument, doesn't mean they deserve to be viciously attacked on all sides.

[embers]

What's to stop God - or any god - from saying, "I shall judge your faith in me by the way you treated the religion you were raised to follow, and I will act as if it was my own."

And the lack of belief in the above is what causes wars, my friend. As long as there are religions with conflicting views, there will always be the notion of 'my religion is right, yours is wrong'. It's because some people are raised to have such ineffable faith in their religion that they simply refuse to be open-minded to other views and beliefs, simply because they are different.

Religion doesn't cause said narrow-mindedness. Religions do. And forcing everyone into having the same view so as not to cause conflict would be fascist.

Why is that so hard to believe?

Because the holy books call it untrue. And sadly, if that's what the books say, then their followers will do little to challenge them.

[Perseus]

You've been here one day and are complaining about the community's atheists? A lot of Christians who come to this forum come here to preach and try and convert everybody and say they are right. They get butthurt by an atheist because s/he contradicts what they say, so they write a huge text wall, like you, and go cry in their corner. Christians can be so annoying, like atheists can be dicks.

[Sith Lord 13]

You've been here one day and are complaining about the community's atheists? A lot of Christians who come to this forum come here to preach and try and convert everybody and say they are right. They get butthurt by an atheist because s/he contradicts what they say, so they write a huge text wall, like you, and go cry in their corner. Christians can be so annoying, like atheists can be dicks.

While it can happen, yes, I wouldn't say a lot have done it.

[Oby.]

Sith, I'm going to thank you man. While I can't thank you for backing me up, because you criticized both sides, I will thank you for not being a troll. You posted your opinion in a calm way and simply backed it up. That's all I really wanted. I don't care whether another person follows a different religion or not, or whether he follows no religion at all, as long as they aren't trolls about it.

Also, here's a message to the people who replied to my thread: I DID NOT preach my religion or religion in general AT ALL in my thread.

Get this straight - Being honest isn't trolling. We on VT like to argue about religion because allot of us teenagers have had it pushed in our face. I certainly don't like a bit of it. And if someone's offended by words, they really need to toughen up.


Wrong, honesty can at times be trolling and you know it. You can be completely honest and tell someone you want them to die, but that's still trolling, isn't it? Also, I respect what you said on arguing about religion on the forums, but what I'm arguing with is those people who, in their form of argument, attack any religion in a way where it isn't really an argument but is just some guy being a dick.

But religion HAS hurt people. There is SOME people that do kill others over it. Not everyone, but the fact that there is people.

Dude, did you like not read the post. I specifically and clearly said religion does not hurt people. It is the stupid, foolish, and ignorant followers of that religion that take the time out of their way to harm others.

People should be open to seeing different points of view. I think every religious and nonreligious person should see all sides of the field - with and without a higher power.

I agree, but don't you think those points of view should be respected?

I attack religion because it's something that has been pushed on me my entire life.

No, I think you attack religion as an immature way to handle the problems from your past. If you were to handle it in a mature way, the word attack would not be in your comment.


But guess this straight - I'm not the one telling people to "Shut the fuck up". I'm civilly debating what you just wrote. That's the difference between you and me.

If you are allowed to express your opinions on religion, I see no problem on me telling people to "Shut the fuck up." I agree though, I shouldn't of said it, but I did. And thank you, for civilly debating this thread; however, if you have attacked religion one way or another like you stated before, than there isn't really a difference between you and me.

Deal with it. Seriously? There's people on VT with problems and the last thing most of them want to hear is the message of God.

No, I will not deal with it. Very few people in this world have problems and "Just deal with it." I acknowledge there are people on VT with problems, but understand, THIS IS NOT A MESSAGE OF GOD (or religion). I only talked about Christianity for like 1 or 2 paragraphs, and in those paragraphs I was actually criticizing the people in it. I don't preach dude.

WE CAN'T BE FRIENDS BECAUSE YOU JUST TOLD ME TO SHUT UP.


That made me laugh xD. But honestly, have you never told your friends to shut up? And like I said before, I regret telling you guys to shut up in my thread.


Except you hate nonreligious people, so that statement is hypocritical.

No, I don't. I just don't like non religious trolls. And I don't hate them either. Hate is silly; it just causes fights.

Except they do, because you made this thread.

Thanks for cutting out the other half of my sentence when you quoted me...


Because your religion is nonsense. Most people don't even know what your religion believes in. You know that the bible says it's ok to beat your slave as long as you don't kill it.

Wow.... Thanks for encouraging me? Uhh, if people don't know what my religion believes in, does that diminish its meaning? No... I don't know what Islam is about, but does that make the religion any less true or any more false?

The Bible also says the earth has four corners.

Have you never heard the phrase "The four corners of the earth" before?
And like Sith said, and I agree with him, the bible was written for its time, and it eventually has to progress, doesn't it?

You don't have to agree with me, but you should listen to what me and others have to say and respect we have an opinion. Fuck, respect the fact that people are let alone honest. Honesty is the best fucking thing you will find in people.

I am listening to what the others say, and I really do thank you guys for replying and giving me you ideas and opinions, and most of them seemed to be un-troll. <-- If that's a word.

I like how you say "Here's my response: shut the fuck up", but then say, "the handfull of people I'm calling out, reply. Answer my questions, I very much wish to hear your philosophy." I love how users like you that come once a month to post the same topic always seem to contradict themselves. It also tends that the religious ones are the most vulgar in their debates.

In the beginning of my thread, I specifically dedicated it to the handful of members. I was not talking to VT in general. Oh, and I haven't even had an account for a month... Wtf are you talking about? BUT, before you flame me for starting shit so early, just now I have only been A MEMBER for like 3 days. I have been a visitor to the forums longer. I just recently chose to make an account, ok?

If you reply to this thread, it'll probably just be something of even more vulgar language, poorly executed debating, and you trying to forget everything I've said so you can convince yourself that you're correct.

Was it? And my first thread wasn't vulgar. I swore, but not every sentence or paragraph was coated in cusses, was it?


Get this - VT is not a place where people preach religon, but preach help and guidance in our own way. We came here to help each other without giving people what they've been shown before. VT is not a religious community, psych ward, counselors office, but a group of teenagers helping teenagers. It's fucking beautiful.

I in no way preached my religion AT ALL.

I like how he thinks atheists are the ones expressing, and trying to force their beliefs onto others. When actually, it's Christians who never shut the fuck up. I can prove this. I commented on a friends status of mine and used the word "shit". Well, she has a religious family, and apparently her second cousin saw my post and sent me an inbox PM. I really want to show you what it said, but it seems in my rage I quickly sent him like a 5 paragraph essay on why hes a dumb ass fuck who should mind his own business and let me be me, while he can be himself.

Umm, that's one example. It doesn't speak for the entire religion. But what does your response speak for? It sounded pretty harsh...

And besides, at least we don't have priests who rape little boys.

VERY mature.

OHWAIT~ that's the people I know who are religious. Just like you're generalizing all atheists you know, I can generalize the Christians I know.

No... I was not generalizing Atheists. Get it straight, please. I was generalizing THE TROLLS.

And the lack of belief in the above is what causes wars, my friend. As long as there are religions with conflicting views, there will always be the notion of 'my religion is right, yours is wrong'.

That applies for everything, not just religions. Do you really think the world would suddenly fall into peace without religion? No. There would be other reasons to fight (like Sith said). Have you ever seen the South Park episode where Eric goes into a future that is ruled by Atheism? You'll notice that there is still war in that Atheistic future. Wars will always happen, they will always be around, no matter what.

Religion doesn't cause said narrow-mindedness. Religions do.

...What?



Oh, and guys. If your Atheist or nonreligious or whatever, I fully respect it. I am just asking you not to troll about it. I understand a lot of religious people choose to troll their religions to others, but if a group of preachers jumped off a bridge... Would you follow?

[Daniel_]

It may be immature to you, but it's completely true. Watch the news some time, you'll see.

[Oby.]

It may be immature to you, but it's completely true. Watch the news some time, you'll see.

Are priests gods? Do they control the religion? No. They just influence it to others. A perverted priest is a problem with humanity, not with religion.

[Perseus]

OP, I have a question. What prompted you to make this thread after a day of you being here?

I have not read all of your OP since it's a massive text wall.

[Oby.]

I have not been on the forums for a day, dude. I've been a member for a day. I recently made an account because I wanted to help some dude out, but other than that, I've been on the website for like 3ish weeks, maybe a month.

And ya, it's a wall of text. There was a lot to reply to.

[Daniel_]

Are priests gods? Do they control the religion? No. They just influence it to others. A perverted priest is a problem with humanity, not with religion.

The priest is a follower of the religion, and it's the religion that fucks with his mind and makes him do crazy things.

Like raping little boys.

[CaptainObvious]

Lots of people here love atheist evangelizing almost as much as the very religious do. I find it all rather tiresome; I'm secure enough in my atheism that I no longer have the need to shout about it. That said, this forum isn't that full of atheist proselytizing. You're going to need to learn to not get offended by argument about religions downsides, or you're going to have a tough time in the future.

One thing though:

Almost every follower of a Religion follow it because they were born into a household that followed it.

And this doesn't strike you as saying anything about the truth of religion?

[Trevoooor]

Discussing religion and atheism is NOT trolling. It's people giving their opinions about different subject matters, and that's pretty much what this entire site is based on.


The priest is a follower of the religion, and it's the religion that fucks with his mind and makes him do crazy things.

Like raping little boys.

This is, though.

[Syvelocin]

I don't agree with the whole "your religion is wrong" thing. I don't often like to express my opinion on religion because I know how many people feel so strongly about theirs.

I decided God didn't exist when I was eight. I strongly believe there is no God. Hell, I don't believe it, I'm fucking sure of it.

However, I think we are confusing something here. I feel like people are generalizing religion. You know, there are atheistic religions that are more than just atheism. Not all religion is Christianity, Judaism, and Islam (include Hinduism and Buddhism if you have a problem with those too). Are you against my religion? Which is entirely of atheism, and it's against religions like Christianity and about attention for the deserving and forgetting the ingrates, eye for an eye philosophy. We've never killed anyone, anything in the name of religion. We only hurt people who deserve it :P

All religion seems to constantly be judged by Abrahamic religions. And if that's not the case, tell me so, but all the holy wars were of these religions, all the evangelists preach these religions, and a great percentage of the idiots we're talking about follow these religions. I shall specify, not all followers are idiots, don't think that I'm saying that. But I'll just say, I've met more idiot Christians than idiot pagans for a reason :/ It's a shame that these idiots give some of us such a bad picture of these religions. Tell me, have you ever had a Hindu shoving their religion in your face?

[Oby.]

Discussing religion and atheism is NOT trolling. It's people giving their opinions about different subject matters, and that's pretty much what this entire site is based on.

It is when you insult it.

And this doesn't strike you as saying anything about the truth of religion?

No, not really. I mean, yes, we are born into our religion, but like a lot of people, you either accept that, and you decide to follow it, or you can break off and go a different way, which isn't really that hard. Yes, we are influenced by our parents at a young age to follow something, but that doesn't mean we aren't able to think about it and go a different direction.

[Dunce]

Exactly. Yes, some people have beliefs. Not everyone who believes in religion are violent or perverts or whatever, some atheists are. Point being, violence doesn't depend on religion, it depends on the person.
Slating and generalising people because they believe in something is just pathetic. You think you're above people who believe in a religion but you're not.
Generalising and fighting with people about it is just hypocritical.

Everyone has their own opinions on religion, I'm not saying we should suppress them, just stop making threads saying 'why the fck would you believe in that' and randomly attacking peoples beliefs without being asked or provoked.
I'm not saying disagreeing is anything bad, but insulting is what I'm talking about.

[Oby.]

Discussing religion and atheism is NOT trolling. It's people giving their opinions about different subject matters, and that's pretty much what this entire site is based on.




This is, though.

See, that's the only kind of stuff I consider trolling. Expressing your ideas and opinions is totally cool, I mean, we all have a right to it, don't we?

[Perseus]

I have not been on the forums for a day, dude. I've been a member for a day. I recently made an account because I wanted to help some dude out, but other than that, I've been on the website for like 3ish weeks, maybe a month.


Exactly. You don't know what's gone on the forums since you haven't been here for a long time.

[Contra]

Religious people are way, way worse than atheists. I'm an atheist and when I told that to my fervently Christian friend, he opened his mouth and said: "BUT THEN YOU'RE GOING TO HELL!!". Last Monday, we went to dinner and some other friends, and we started talking about Christmas, then he started asking me what is the meaning I give Christmas since I am an atheist, then the conversation evolved to other religious stuff, and just to annoy me, he started to talk about some religious ceremony he's going to and stuff. I then punched him the nose. Nah, just kidding, I wish I did though.
The point is, even if Christians or other religious people are more than atheists, every one has the right to express their views and believe (or not) in what they want. Religion is something each people finds in them, so there is no way you can convince an atheist to believe in some religion or the other way around.

[deadpie]

Wrong, honesty can at times be trolling and you know it. You can be completely honest and tell someone you want them to die, but that's still trolling, isn't it?

No. I don't think that at all. Trolling is just pissing people off to make you happy, not even being necessarly honest about what you're saying. I think honesty and trolling are different.

So lets say you're mother is a complete bitch and you hate her. One day you decide to just argue about everything you hate about her. Is that trolling?


Also, I respect what you said on arguing about religion on the forums, but what I'm arguing with is those people who, in their form of argument, attack any religion in a way where it isn't really an argument but is just some guy being a dick.

I want an example of people taking religion in a dickish way and how people attack it in a polite way. Really, I think both versions would still bother you.


Dude, did you like not read the post. I specifically and clearly said religion does not hurt people. It is the stupid, foolish, and ignorant followers of that religion that take the time out of their way to harm others.

Except I did read your whole post. And religion does hurt people. Religion preaches violence. Even if it does preach other things like forgiveness, there's more layers that you have to look for.



No, I think you attack religion as an immature way to handle the problems from your past. If you were to handle it in a mature way, the word attack would not be in your comment.

If you were going to make your post mature, you wouldn't use fuck so many times in your comment.



If you are allowed to express your opinions on religion, I see no problem on me telling people to "Shut the fuck up."

Except that's a little more vulgar. Telling people to shut up is pretty much meaning you don't want them to express their opinion.


I agree though, I shouldn't of said it, but I did. And thank you, for civilly debating this thread; however, if you have attacked religion one way or another like you stated before, than there isn't really a difference between you and me.

There is a difference between you and me. My attacks on religion provide multiple points of view, which if you wen't to ROTW you might see some of that.



That made me laugh xD. But honestly, have you never told your friends to shut up? And like I said before, I regret telling you guys to shut up in my thread.

If you regretted it, you would edit the original post and fix those words. And when I do tell my friends to shut up, it's in a joking way. I actually care about my friends and respect them. I defend my friends at all costs.



No, I don't. I just don't like non religious trolls. And I don't hate them either. Hate is silly; it just causes fights.

Without hate, violence, and evil in this world, everything would be plain and boring. I believe that both good and evil must be balanced in order of perfection. Without bad things, how will we ever gain any knowledge over past events or learn to know how to solve bad things at all?



Thanks for cutting out the other half of my sentence when you quoted me...

Sorry, not everyone of your sentences isn't that interesting to me.


Wow.... Thanks for encouraging me? Uhh, if people don't know what my religion believes in, does that diminish its meaning? No... I don't know what Islam is about, but does that make the religion any less true or any more false?

It makes YOU and any believer who doesn't know what their religion is about kind of...I don't even know the word for it. If you're going to believe in something, you should actually know what you're believing in.



Have you never heard the phrase "The four corners of the earth" before?
And like Sith said, and I agree with him, the bible was written for its time, and it eventually has to progress, doesn't it?

Except you would think the people that wrote the bible would now the earth isn't flat and slavery is wrong, etc etc...


I am listening to what the others say, and I really do thank you guys for replying and giving me you ideas and opinions, and most of them seemed to be un-troll. <-- If that's a word.

It's not.



In the beginning of my thread, I specifically dedicated it to the handful of members. I was not talking to VT in general. Oh, and I haven't even had an account for a month... Wtf are you talking about?

Well, usually when a member tells someone to "Shut the fuck up" you can get in trouble.


BUT, before you flame me for starting shit so early, just now I have only been A MEMBER for like 3 days. I have been a visitor to the forums longer. I just recently chose to make an account, ok?

I'm not flaming you, just being honest.


Next user....I don't think there's enough pie to keep me out of boredom from this thread.


That's not true Tim and you know it. To go to a fat person and tell them they're fat may be true, but it's still trolling.

Telling that fatass to lose weight and get healthy is trolling?



Religion is merely the crutch people use to give them an excuse. If religion disappeared, the number of wars would not diminish, people would simply find new excuses.

That's nihilism in your own words. What's the point of getting rid of religion when only more problems will come up? Your point is negative and hopeless.




You don't have to agree with him, but you have to admit you know there is no god the same way he knows there is a god. Saying you know that in terms of a debate is factually impossible.

Proof that there is no God = Divide by zero.


The vitriol from some atheists here has been no less severe than he's been.

If there has been jackass Atheists, they're probably the stupid ones that think it's hip and cool. I hate those.



For some it may be helpful. You can't deny religion has saved lives over the years. I'm not even talking about charities, since there would still be charities even if there were no religion. I'm talking about people who, through their faith in god, managed to positively change their lives.

Yeah, I've seen a higher power help people. I was forced to go to AA meeting for two years. Even though these people found something that saved them, those people still seem ignorant and weak minded, which will still bother me.


He didn't tell you. He told those people who make it their mission in life to deride religion whenever it comes up.

He did tell me because I do make it my mission to deride religion whenever it comes up. The reason I do that is because I can't control it. There's a huge amount of rage for me that explodes. You probably wouldn't understand that.


So you're saying every time you've argued against religion, it's been trolling? That you're arguments don't really mean anything?

I never said my arguments have been trolling, but they are USELESS. In a religious debate, there's no fucking winner. Everyone goes home with the same thoughts most of the time. No matter how convincing anyone's words could be or how amazing their argument is, they're all useless because there's never a winner or a loser.



That right there is an inflammatory comment. It doesn't serve to move the debate forward, just to enrage.

Let it enrage then. I like seeing a fire grow.


The fact that the mass population is either not intelligent enough or not interested enough to learn about a religion not their own is a mark against the religion how?

Not the religion, but the people.


The bible was a text written for it's time. Progress must come slowly.

Like I said before, you would think the people that wrote the bible would have better morals and now these things, right?



People say they've been to the four corners of the world all the time. It's an expression. Regardless, the bible was never meant to teach scientific truths.

By four corners, it didn't mean the expression. It literally meant the ending sides of the world. I'll get the scripture if this thread moves to ROTW. Why isn't it there anyways?

Of course it wasn't. It's physically impossible to live in a fucking whale. The bible is just written by some dude on Voyage 34.




You're absolutely right Tim. But when it comes to ROTW, the fact that someone is religious, and is putting forward a pro-religion argument, doesn't mean they deserve to be viciously attacked on all sides.

Why not? I want to be attacked all sides. PLEASE. I want every religious person to give me their faith and tell me everything about it. I want to hear it all just so I can depict every piece of it. You could call me a monster for being that type of person, but I'm someone who wants to make everyone in his way think and question things.


No, not really. I mean, yes, we are born into our religion, but like a lot of people, you either accept that, and you decide to follow it, or you can break off and go a different way, which isn't really that hard. Yes, we are influenced by our parents at a young age to follow something, but that doesn't mean we aren't able to think about it and go a different direction.

It's not that easy for some people to go their own way. Really, many people don't like to question things. They like to think they're right and sometimes, even think everyone else is completely wrong if they don't believe what they believe.

[Sage]

Hey OP, maybe you should try praying for the mean atheists to change their minds.

[Daniel_]

That'll get shit done. While your at it pray me up some juice, i'm thirsty.

[Sage]

That'll get shit done. While your at it pray me up some juice, i'm thirsty.

God's a busy chap Daniel. One prayer at a time.

[CaptainObvious]

Hey OP, maybe you should try praying for the mean atheists to change their minds.

My cousin is crazy Christian, his wife is off the fucking deep end - and this is exactly what she told me she'd do when I said goodbye the last time I saw them.

No, not really. I mean, yes, we are born into our religion, but like a lot of people, you either accept that, and you decide to follow it, or you can break off and go a different way, which isn't really that hard. Yes, we are influenced by our parents at a young age to follow something, but that doesn't mean we aren't able to think about it and go a different direction.

In theory maybe, but in practice the empirical results are undeniable: people believe what they were told to believe back when they were young enough that they didn't know any better.

[Oby.]

The point is, even if Christians or other religious people are more than atheists, every one has the right to express their views and believe (or not) in what they want. Religion is something each people finds in them, so there is no way you can convince an atheist to believe in some religion or the other way around.


Agreed.

[The Joker]

Agreed.

Actually, the poster you quoted is wrong. It IS possible to change someone's mind. I used to be a devout Christian, and now I'm an atheist. A big part of that was VT.

[deadpie]

so there is no way you can convince an atheist to believe in some religion or the other way around.

So you're saying atheists don't exist?

[Oby.]

No. I don't think that at all. Trolling is just pissing people off to make you happy, not even being necessarly honest about what you're saying. I think honesty and trolling are different.

That's your definition of trolling. Don't speak for everyone else when you define.

So lets say you're mother is a complete bitch and you hate her. One day you decide to just argue about everything you hate about her. Is that trolling?

Ya, it's likely that both the child and the mother are trolls.



I want an example of people taking religion in a dickish way and how people attack it in a polite way. Really, I think both versions would still bother you.

Dickish way: That'll get shit done. While your at it pray me up some juice, i'm thirsty.

Polite way: I don't agree with the whole "your religion is wrong" thing. I don't often like to express my opinion on religion because I know how many people feel so strongly about theirs.

I decided God didn't exist when I was eight. I strongly believe there is no God. Hell, I don't believe it, I'm fucking sure of it.

However, I think we are confusing something here. I feel like people are generalizing religion. You know, there are atheistic religions that are more than just atheism. Not all religion is Christianity, Judaism, and Islam (include Hinduism and Buddhism if you have a problem with those too). Are you against my religion? Which is entirely of atheism, and it's against religions like Christianity and about attention for the deserving and forgetting the ingrates, eye for an eye philosophy. We've never killed anyone, anything in the name of religion. We only hurt people who deserve it :P




Except I did read your whole post. And religion does hurt people. Religion preaches violence. Even if it does preach other things like forgiveness, there's more layers that you have to look for.

Like what? Your famous slave beating example? That one example does not mean religion preaches violence.



If you were going to make your post mature, you wouldn't use fuck so many times in your comment.

...

If you regretted it, you would edit the original post and fix those words.

I would, I was actually going to, but then I started thinking about the other people who are coming in to this thread and just reading it, and I didn't want to confuse them. I wanted them to have the same advantage at this argument as the people who posted first.




Without hate, violence, and evil in this world, everything would be plain and boring. I believe that both good and evil must be balanced in order of perfection. Without bad things, how will we ever gain any knowledge over past events or learn to know how to solve bad things at all?

Without hate, there would be no violence/evil. Without hate, there would be nothing to learn from because without hate there would be nothing needed to have learned from in the future.




Sorry, not everyone of your sentences isn't that interesting to me.

I don't exactly remember what you quoted me on, but you had half of the sentence gone, and that half that you didn't add was the answer to you question.



It makes YOU and any believer who doesn't know what their religion is about kind of...I don't even know the word for it.

If you don't know how to express something then why are you arguing about it?

If you're going to believe in something, you should actually know what you're believing in.

Is that what you were trying to say? I thought you were trying to say something about how followers of different religions didn't know about another. You should be more clearer.




Except you would think the people that wrote the bible would now the earth isn't flat and slavery is wrong, etc etc...

There's the famous slave thing again!



It's not.

Thanks.



I'm not flaming you, just being honest.

And for that I thank you.



Telling that fatass to lose weight and get healthy is trolling?

It is when you put it like that.




That's nihilism in your own words. What's the point of getting rid of religion when only more problems will come up? Your point is negative and hopeless.

He had no intention of getting rid of religion. He was addressing how people believe that without religion, there would be peace.




Proof that there is no God = Divide by zero.

Clever...


If there has been jackass Atheists, they're probably the stupid ones that think it's hip and cool. I hate those.

I'm pretty sure there are more than 1 type of jackass Atheists.



He did tell me because I do make it my mission to deride religion whenever it comes up. The reason I do that is because I can't control it. There's a huge amount of rage for me that explodes. You probably wouldn't understand that.

Ya, I understand that you seem to be constantly pissed when people bring up religion.




Let it enrage then. I like seeing a fire grow.

I dislike people like you. (The kind of people who like to create more problems instead of solving them)





Like I said before, you would think the people that wrote the bible would have better morals and now these things, right?

They weren't time travelers.





Why not? I want to be attacked all sides. PLEASE.

You spoke for yourself. The same doesn't apple to everyone else.





It's not that easy for some people to go their own way.

Once again, stop speaking for everyone.

[Daniel_]

I'm still undecided. I'm not sure, I was brought up in a Christian home so some part of me will always believe.. But, I just don't see.. I mean, well.. I'm not sure.

I'm hungry.

[deadpie]

That's your definition of trolling. Don't speak for everyone else when you define.

And my definition is correct.


Ya, it's likely that both the child and the mother are trolls.

LOLWAT


Like what? Your famous slave beating example? That one example does not mean religion preaches violence.

It's a small example. Here's some for Christianity that I had up in another thread -

Murder, Rape, And Pillage:
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

God Kills Children:
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

Rape And Baby Killing:
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

God Will Kill Everyone:
"I will sweep away everything in all your land," says the LORD. "I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die. I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity," says the LORD. "I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship. I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear. For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars. They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too. So now I will destroy them! And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do. They no longer ask for the LORD's guidance or seek my blessings." (Zephaniah 1:2-6 NLT)

Child Abuse:
"He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him takes care to chastise him" (Proverbs 13:24 NAB)

Kill Children:
"Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock." Psalms 137:9 NAB

Eating Feces Is Good
Each day prepare your bread as you would barley cakes. While all the people are watching, bake it over a fire using dried human dung as fuel and then eat the bread. For this is what the LORD says: Israel will eat defiled bread in the Gentile lands, where I will banish them!" Then I said, "O Sovereign LORD, must I be defiled by using human dung? For I have never been defiled before. From the time I was a child until now I have never eaten any animal that died of sickness or that I found dead. And I have never eaten any of the animals that our laws forbid." "All right," the LORD said. "You may bake your bread with cow dung instead of human dung." (Ezekiel 4:12-15 NLT)

Happiness:
And put a knife to your throat if you have a ravenous appetite. (Proverbs 23:2 NAB)

Family Hatred is OK:
(Jesus Speaking) If anyone comes to me without hating his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he can not be my disciple. (Luke 14:26 NAB)

Beat Your Children With A Rod:
Withhold not chastisement from a boy; if you beat him with a rod he will not die. Beat him with the rod, and you will save him from the nether world. (Proverbs 23:13-14 NAB)

42,000 People Die
The leaders of Ephraim responded, "The men of Gilead are nothing more than rejects from Ephraim and Manasseh." So Jephthah called out his army and attacked the men of Ephraim and defeated them. Jephthah captured the shallows of the Jordan, and whenever a fugitive from Ephraim tried to go back across, the men of Gilead would challenge him. "Are you a member of the tribe of Ephraim?" they would ask. If the man said, "No, I'm not," they would tell him to say "Shibboleth." If he was from Ephraim, he would say "Sibboleth," because people from Ephraim cannot pronounce the word correctly. Then they would take him and kill him at the shallows of the Jordan River. So forty-two thousand Ephraimites were killed at that time. (Judges 12:4-6 NLT)

God Kills More People:
(God punishes David for ordering a census of his people.) Yahweh spoke to Gad, David's seer, saying, Go and speak to David, saying, Thus says Yahweh, I offer you three things: choose you one of them, that I may do it to you. So Gad came to David, and said to him, Thus says Yahweh, Take which you will: either three years of famine; or three months to be consumed before your foes, while the sword of your enemies overtakes you; or else three days the sword of Yahweh, even pestilence in the land, and the angel of Yahweh destroying throughout all the borders of Israel. Now therefore consider what answer I shall return to him who sent me. David said to Gad, I am in a great strait: let me fall, I pray, into the hand of Yahweh; for very great are his mercies: and let me not fall into the hand of man. So Yahweh sent a pestilence on Israel; and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men. (1 Chronicles 21:9-14 WEB)

Slavery:
Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse. (1 Peter 2:18 NAB)

Murder at Babylon:
"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

Eat The Children:
So beware, for the time is coming, says the LORD, when this place will no longer be called Topheth or the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter. For I will upset the battle plans of Judah and Jerusalem and let invading armies slaughter them. The enemy will leave the dead bodies as food for the vultures and wild animals. I will wipe Jerusalem from the face of the earth, making it a monument to their stupidity. All who pass by will be appalled and will gasp at the destruction they see there. I will see to it that your enemies lay siege to the city until all the food is gone. Then those trapped inside will have to eat their own sons and daughters and friends. They will be driven to utter despair.' (Jeremiah 19:6-9 NLT)

God Sends A Bunch Of Poisonous Snakes For Some Reason:
Yes, I will send against you poisonous snakes, Against which no charm will work when they bite you, says the LORD. (Jeremiah 8:17 NAB)

120,000 Die
That is why the LORD his God allowed the king of Aram to defeat Ahaz and to exile large numbers of his people to Damascus. The armies of Israel also defeated Ahaz and inflicted many casualties on his army. In a single day Pekah son of Remaliah, Israel's king, killed 120,000 of Judah's troops because they had abandoned the LORD, the God of their ancestors. Then Zicri, a warrior from Ephraim, killed Maaseiah, the king's son; Azrikam, the king's palace commander; and Elkanah, the king's second-in-command. The armies of Israel captured 200,000 women and children from Judah and took tremendous amounts of plunder, which they took back to Samaria. (2 Chronicles 28:5-8 NLT)

God Kills 185,000 more people:
The angel of the Lord went forth and struck down one hundred and eighty-five thousand in the Assyrian camp. Early the next morning they were there, all the corpses of the dead. (Isaiah 37:36 NAB)

Humans Are Fuel For Fire:
As for you, son of man, prophesy: Thus says the Lord GOD against the Ammonites and their insults: A sword, a sword is drawn for slaughter, burnished to consume and to flash lightning, because you planned with false visions and lying divinations to lay it on the necks of depraved and wicked men whose day has come when their crimes are at an end. Return it to its sheath! In the place where you were created, in the land of your origin, I will judge you. I will pour out my indignation upon you, breathing my fiery wrath upon you, I will hand you over to ravaging men, artisans of destruction. You shall be fuel for the fire, your blood shall flow throughout the land. You shall not be remembered, for I, the LORD, have spoken. (Ezekiel 21:33-37 NAB)

Children Aren't Innocent:
How can any man be just in God’s sight, or how can any women’s child be innocent? (Job 25:4 NAB)

Priest Executing A Woman: Then Jehoiada the priest ordered the commanders who were in charge of the troops, "Take her out of the Temple, and kill anyone who tries to rescue her. Do not kill her here in the Temple of the LORD." So they seized her and led her out to the gate where horses enter the palace grounds, and they killed her there. (2 Chronicles 23:14-15 NLT)

Women Should Be Dragged By Fishhooks:
Hear this word, you cows of Bashan who are on the mountain of Samaria, Who oppress the poor, who crush the needy, Who say to your husbands, "Bring now, that we may drink!" The Lord GOD has sworn by His holiness, "Behold, the days are coming upon you When they will take you away with meat hooks, And the last of you with fish hooks. "You will go out {through} breaches {in the walls,} Each one straight before her, And you will be cast to Harmon," declares the LORD. (Amos 4:1-3 NAS)

This is just plain sick as it gets:
"Listen, you priests; this command is for you! Listen to me and take it to heart. Honor my name," says the LORD Almighty, "or I will bring a terrible curse against you. I will curse even the blessings you receive. Indeed, I have already cursed them, because you have not taken my warning seriously. I will rebuke your descendants and splatter your faces with the dung of your festival sacrifices, and I will add you to the dung heap. Then at last you will know it was I who sent you this warning so that my covenant with the Levites may continue," says the LORD Almighty. (Malachi 2:1-4 NLT)

Cannibalism:
So this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Since you have refused to obey my laws and regulations and have behaved even worse than your neighbors, I myself, the Sovereign LORD, am now your enemy. I will punish you publicly while all the nations watch. Because of your detestable idols, I will punish you more severely than I have punished anyone before or ever will again. Parents will eat their own children, and children will eat their parents. And I will punish you by scattering the few who survive to the far reaches of the earth. (Ezekiel 5:7-10)

Crazy Flood Of Death:
Finally, the water covered even the highest mountains on the earth, standing more than twenty-two feet above the highest peaks. All the living things on earth died – birds, domestic animals, wild animals, all kinds of small animals, and all the people. Everything died that breathed and lived on dry land. Every living thing on the earth was wiped out – people, animals both large and small, and birds. They were all destroyed, and only Noah was left alive, along with those who were with him in the boat. (Genesis 7:19-23 NLT)

Crushing People's Heads:
You marched across the land in awesome anger and trampled the nations in your fury. You went out to rescue your chosen people, to save your anointed ones. You crushed the heads of the wicked and laid bare their bones from head to toe. With their own weapons, you destroyed those who rushed out like a whirlwind, thinking Israel would be easy prey. (Habakkuk 3:12-14 NLT)

Hammering Stuff Into People's Heads:
Meanwhile, Sisera ran to the tent of Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, because Heber's family was on friendly terms with King Jabin of Hazor. Jael went out to meet Sisera and said to him, "Come into my tent, sir. Come in. Don't be afraid." So he went into her tent, and she covered him with a blanket. "Please give me some water," he said. "I'm thirsty." So she gave him some milk to drink and covered him again. "Stand at the door of the tent," he told her. "If anybody comes and asks you if there is anyone here, say no." But when Sisera fell asleep from exhaustion, Jael quietly crept up to him with a hammer and tent peg. Then she drove the tent peg through his temple and into the ground, and so he died. When Barak came looking for Sisera, Jael went out to meet him. She said, "Come, and I will show you the man you are looking for." So he followed her into the tent and found Sisera lying there dead, with the tent peg through his temple. So on that day Israel saw God subdue Jabin, the Canaanite king. And from that time on Israel became stronger and stronger against King Jabin, until they finally destroyed him. (Judges 4:17-24 NLT)

Christian Communism:
The community of believers was of one heart and mind, and no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they had everything in common. With great power the apostles bore witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great favor was accorded them all. There was no needy person among them, for those who owned property or houses would sell them, bring the proceeds of the sale, and put them at the feet of the apostles, and they were distributed to each according to need. (Acts 4:32-35 NAB)

God Crushes Skulls:
But God will smash the heads of his enemies, crushing the skulls of those who love their guilty ways. The Lord says, "I will bring my enemies down from Bashan; I will bring them up from the depths of the sea. You, my people, will wash your feet in their blood, and even your dogs will get their share!" (Psalms 68:21-23 NLT)

Kill Followers Of Other Religions:
While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)

I'll do the Koran next if you want me to. Also, that is just a tiny bit of the madness from the bible.



Without hate, there would be no violence/evil. Without hate, there would be nothing to learn from because without hate there would be nothing needed to have learned from in the future.

That's pretty much what I said and you didn't agree with at first, but now you do. Huh?



I don't exactly remember what you quoted me on, but you had half of the sentence gone, and that half that you didn't add was the answer to you question.

Better go find it, because I don't know what you're talking about and you don't sound like you know what you're talking about either.



If you don't know how to express something then why are you arguing about it?

I didn't know how to express that word because there's no real definition how I feel about that. You get? Probably not.



Is that what you were trying to say? I thought you were trying to say something about how followers of different religions didn't know about another. You should be more clearer.

I'm pretty clear with what I'm saying. Yet, you still don't get what I'm trying to say I'm sure.



There's the famous slave thing again!

If you look above, there's more then just slavery.



I'm pretty sure there are more than 1 type of jackass Atheists.

And there's different types of jackass religious people too.



Ya, I understand that you seem to be constantly pissed when people bring up religion.

No, I don't think you do.


I dislike people like you. (The kind of people who like to create more problems instead of solving them)

You mean the people that don't mind exploring the problem deeply, dissecting it, and showing it's pros and cons? That's the only way to really fix a problem.


They weren't time travelers.

They did write the bible, which should be enough to say they should know what they're talking about.


Once again, stop speaking for everyone.


Notice how I said "SOME PEOPLE". Not everyone.

[Amnesiac]

This is for the handful of people on this website who constantly find it necessary to criticize and degrade religion. My question is simply this.... Why?

Are you implying it's wrong for us to voice our opinions on religion? We're only having true and honest debate — it is a fact that religion has been the cause of much warfare and grief throughout human history; that it deludes people and hampers human progress.

Why the flying fuck do you handful of people find it necessary to express such trolling opinion that offend billions of people? Do you just enjoy trolling? Do you like to preach your words of wisdom? Do you just like to read posts like this?

We're not trolling. We're being honest. I'm sorry if that offends you. (Well, I'm not sorry at all, you're just whining about it.)

A lot of the stuff the people have posted that I have read constantly refer to the way religion ruins the goodness of people by making them do horrible things. Here's my response: shut the fuck up. Not every religion follower is so madly driven by it that they feel the need to kill and fight others over it. Religion does not hurt people: it's the dumb people that follow the religion that hurt people.

It does. Sure, there are rational religious people, but there are also many who are driven to technical insanity by this.

Stop being so ignorant and realize that people like you are what are causing people to fight back in order to defend their religion. It's human nature. If someone would fight to defend their children or siblings, then that same someone will fight to defend their religion, so why do you only criticize the religion related one? Are you so consumed by your unsurity of the existence of a superior being that you find ways to say things that are very well developed and meant to attack religion?

Why do people need to "defend" their religion? We're not attacking it, we're simply trying to have a rational conversation about its downsides, something that is not done often enough in this country. Please don't compare religion to children; it's not as important as one's children. Religion has been the cause of so much ignorance in this world, and nobody's willing to admit it.

I'm religious, but that's not why I'm posting this. I'm posting this because it shocks me to see how people can troll about something that causes others harm *which is really meant to bring good* when you are getting people like me pissed, and starting the harm in the first place.

Religion doesn't bring good. That may be what it set out to do 2,000 years ago, but it is no longer compatible with modern society. Now, all religion does is delude people into relying on a higher power. People continuously hamper the progress of the human race through their antics in the name of religion. From bloody wars to the "theory" of evolution, religion has done much more bad than good.

Why can't you shut up? Honestly. Why can't we just be friends? I can assure you, if all religions and nonreligions - if people would just get together and be nice, your troll comments would have no meaning. And don't tell me it's a hopeless cause to fight for, because with an attitude like that, ya, it is hopeless. You're showing no hope in the first place.

We are not fucking trolling.

If you don't like having your opinions examined, by all means, stay the fuck away from ROTW.

Let me share a little fact with you guys. There is one thing in the Bible (I'm Christian btw) that I slightly disagree on. And the only reason I disagree with it is because it is exaggerated by peoples stupidity. I disagree with the way people preach. A lot of the people in this world choose to preach by pointing to a persons face and saying "YOUR RELIGION IS WRONG."

Yes, too many people, which is why religion cannot be salvaged for good. Too many people are deluded by it, by its extreme qualities (stoning, creationism, ect.) that it is no longer good for anyone.

WTF? Who are you to have the right to say one religion is the truth and the others are BS. Almost every follower of a Religion follow it because they were born into a household that followed it. They had no choice but to follow it, and chances are, they built a bond with it that cannot be broken easily. So think about it. What's to stop God - or any god - from saying, "I shall judge your faith in me by the way you treated the religion you were raised to follow, and I will act as if it was my own." Why is that so hard to believe?

Read: first amendment.

It's a horrible thing to suggest having religion shoved down your throat from birth is a good thing. I think it should be illegal for parents to influence the religious choice of their children.

Don't put words in God's mouth, either. For all you know, God (or the gods) may not be the nice being you make him out to be.

Also, you handful of people that I called out one beginning of this thread are like my religious pet peeve. You preach your words of, I guess atheism, by telling us our religions are nonsense that mean nothing but harm.

Atheism is simply the lack of belief in God. Don't try and attribute extra opinions to the definition of atheism. It doesn't cover those.

[The Joker]

And my definition is correct.



LOLWAT



It's a small example. Here's some for Christianity that I had up in another thread -

Murder, Rape, And Pillage:
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

God Kills Children:
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

Rape And Baby Killing:
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

God Will Kill Everyone:
"I will sweep away everything in all your land," says the LORD. "I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die. I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity," says the LORD. "I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship. I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear. For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars. They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too. So now I will destroy them! And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do. They no longer ask for the LORD's guidance or seek my blessings." (Zephaniah 1:2-6 NLT)

Child Abuse:
"He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him takes care to chastise him" (Proverbs 13:24 NAB)

Kill Children:
"Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock." Psalms 137:9 NAB

Eating Feces Is Good
Each day prepare your bread as you would barley cakes. While all the people are watching, bake it over a fire using dried human dung as fuel and then eat the bread. For this is what the LORD says: Israel will eat defiled bread in the Gentile lands, where I will banish them!" Then I said, "O Sovereign LORD, must I be defiled by using human dung? For I have never been defiled before. From the time I was a child until now I have never eaten any animal that died of sickness or that I found dead. And I have never eaten any of the animals that our laws forbid." "All right," the LORD said. "You may bake your bread with cow dung instead of human dung." (Ezekiel 4:12-15 NLT)

Happiness:
And put a knife to your throat if you have a ravenous appetite. (Proverbs 23:2 NAB)

Family Hatred is OK:
(Jesus Speaking) If anyone comes to me without hating his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he can not be my disciple. (Luke 14:26 NAB)

Beat Your Children With A Rod:
Withhold not chastisement from a boy; if you beat him with a rod he will not die. Beat him with the rod, and you will save him from the nether world. (Proverbs 23:13-14 NAB)

42,000 People Die
The leaders of Ephraim responded, "The men of Gilead are nothing more than rejects from Ephraim and Manasseh." So Jephthah called out his army and attacked the men of Ephraim and defeated them. Jephthah captured the shallows of the Jordan, and whenever a fugitive from Ephraim tried to go back across, the men of Gilead would challenge him. "Are you a member of the tribe of Ephraim?" they would ask. If the man said, "No, I'm not," they would tell him to say "Shibboleth." If he was from Ephraim, he would say "Sibboleth," because people from Ephraim cannot pronounce the word correctly. Then they would take him and kill him at the shallows of the Jordan River. So forty-two thousand Ephraimites were killed at that time. (Judges 12:4-6 NLT)

God Kills More People:
(God punishes David for ordering a census of his people.) Yahweh spoke to Gad, David's seer, saying, Go and speak to David, saying, Thus says Yahweh, I offer you three things: choose you one of them, that I may do it to you. So Gad came to David, and said to him, Thus says Yahweh, Take which you will: either three years of famine; or three months to be consumed before your foes, while the sword of your enemies overtakes you; or else three days the sword of Yahweh, even pestilence in the land, and the angel of Yahweh destroying throughout all the borders of Israel. Now therefore consider what answer I shall return to him who sent me. David said to Gad, I am in a great strait: let me fall, I pray, into the hand of Yahweh; for very great are his mercies: and let me not fall into the hand of man. So Yahweh sent a pestilence on Israel; and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men. (1 Chronicles 21:9-14 WEB)

Slavery:
Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse. (1 Peter 2:18 NAB)

Murder at Babylon:
"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

Eat The Children:
So beware, for the time is coming, says the LORD, when this place will no longer be called Topheth or the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter. For I will upset the battle plans of Judah and Jerusalem and let invading armies slaughter them. The enemy will leave the dead bodies as food for the vultures and wild animals. I will wipe Jerusalem from the face of the earth, making it a monument to their stupidity. All who pass by will be appalled and will gasp at the destruction they see there. I will see to it that your enemies lay siege to the city until all the food is gone. Then those trapped inside will have to eat their own sons and daughters and friends. They will be driven to utter despair.' (Jeremiah 19:6-9 NLT)

God Sends A Bunch Of Poisonous Snakes For Some Reason:
Yes, I will send against you poisonous snakes, Against which no charm will work when they bite you, says the LORD. (Jeremiah 8:17 NAB)

120,000 Die
That is why the LORD his God allowed the king of Aram to defeat Ahaz and to exile large numbers of his people to Damascus. The armies of Israel also defeated Ahaz and inflicted many casualties on his army. In a single day Pekah son of Remaliah, Israel's king, killed 120,000 of Judah's troops because they had abandoned the LORD, the God of their ancestors. Then Zicri, a warrior from Ephraim, killed Maaseiah, the king's son; Azrikam, the king's palace commander; and Elkanah, the king's second-in-command. The armies of Israel captured 200,000 women and children from Judah and took tremendous amounts of plunder, which they took back to Samaria. (2 Chronicles 28:5-8 NLT)

God Kills 185,000 more people:
The angel of the Lord went forth and struck down one hundred and eighty-five thousand in the Assyrian camp. Early the next morning they were there, all the corpses of the dead. (Isaiah 37:36 NAB)

Humans Are Fuel For Fire:
As for you, son of man, prophesy: Thus says the Lord GOD against the Ammonites and their insults: A sword, a sword is drawn for slaughter, burnished to consume and to flash lightning, because you planned with false visions and lying divinations to lay it on the necks of depraved and wicked men whose day has come when their crimes are at an end. Return it to its sheath! In the place where you were created, in the land of your origin, I will judge you. I will pour out my indignation upon you, breathing my fiery wrath upon you, I will hand you over to ravaging men, artisans of destruction. You shall be fuel for the fire, your blood shall flow throughout the land. You shall not be remembered, for I, the LORD, have spoken. (Ezekiel 21:33-37 NAB)

Children Aren't Innocent:
How can any man be just in God’s sight, or how can any women’s child be innocent? (Job 25:4 NAB)

Priest Executing A Woman: Then Jehoiada the priest ordered the commanders who were in charge of the troops, "Take her out of the Temple, and kill anyone who tries to rescue her. Do not kill her here in the Temple of the LORD." So they seized her and led her out to the gate where horses enter the palace grounds, and they killed her there. (2 Chronicles 23:14-15 NLT)

Women Should Be Dragged By Fishhooks:
Hear this word, you cows of Bashan who are on the mountain of Samaria, Who oppress the poor, who crush the needy, Who say to your husbands, "Bring now, that we may drink!" The Lord GOD has sworn by His holiness, "Behold, the days are coming upon you When they will take you away with meat hooks, And the last of you with fish hooks. "You will go out {through} breaches {in the walls,} Each one straight before her, And you will be cast to Harmon," declares the LORD. (Amos 4:1-3 NAS)

This is just plain sick as it gets:
"Listen, you priests; this command is for you! Listen to me and take it to heart. Honor my name," says the LORD Almighty, "or I will bring a terrible curse against you. I will curse even the blessings you receive. Indeed, I have already cursed them, because you have not taken my warning seriously. I will rebuke your descendants and splatter your faces with the dung of your festival sacrifices, and I will add you to the dung heap. Then at last you will know it was I who sent you this warning so that my covenant with the Levites may continue," says the LORD Almighty. (Malachi 2:1-4 NLT)

Cannibalism:
So this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Since you have refused to obey my laws and regulations and have behaved even worse than your neighbors, I myself, the Sovereign LORD, am now your enemy. I will punish you publicly while all the nations watch. Because of your detestable idols, I will punish you more severely than I have punished anyone before or ever will again. Parents will eat their own children, and children will eat their parents. And I will punish you by scattering the few who survive to the far reaches of the earth. (Ezekiel 5:7-10)

Crazy Flood Of Death:
Finally, the water covered even the highest mountains on the earth, standing more than twenty-two feet above the highest peaks. All the living things on earth died – birds, domestic animals, wild animals, all kinds of small animals, and all the people. Everything died that breathed and lived on dry land. Every living thing on the earth was wiped out – people, animals both large and small, and birds. They were all destroyed, and only Noah was left alive, along with those who were with him in the boat. (Genesis 7:19-23 NLT)

Crushing People's Heads:
You marched across the land in awesome anger and trampled the nations in your fury. You went out to rescue your chosen people, to save your anointed ones. You crushed the heads of the wicked and laid bare their bones from head to toe. With their own weapons, you destroyed those who rushed out like a whirlwind, thinking Israel would be easy prey. (Habakkuk 3:12-14 NLT)

Hammering Stuff Into People's Heads:
Meanwhile, Sisera ran to the tent of Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, because Heber's family was on friendly terms with King Jabin of Hazor. Jael went out to meet Sisera and said to him, "Come into my tent, sir. Come in. Don't be afraid." So he went into her tent, and she covered him with a blanket. "Please give me some water," he said. "I'm thirsty." So she gave him some milk to drink and covered him again. "Stand at the door of the tent," he told her. "If anybody comes and asks you if there is anyone here, say no." But when Sisera fell asleep from exhaustion, Jael quietly crept up to him with a hammer and tent peg. Then she drove the tent peg through his temple and into the ground, and so he died. When Barak came looking for Sisera, Jael went out to meet him. She said, "Come, and I will show you the man you are looking for." So he followed her into the tent and found Sisera lying there dead, with the tent peg through his temple. So on that day Israel saw God subdue Jabin, the Canaanite king. And from that time on Israel became stronger and stronger against King Jabin, until they finally destroyed him. (Judges 4:17-24 NLT)

Christian Communism:
The community of believers was of one heart and mind, and no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they had everything in common. With great power the apostles bore witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great favor was accorded them all. There was no needy person among them, for those who owned property or houses would sell them, bring the proceeds of the sale, and put them at the feet of the apostles, and they were distributed to each according to need. (Acts 4:32-35 NAB)

God Crushes Skulls:
But God will smash the heads of his enemies, crushing the skulls of those who love their guilty ways. The Lord says, "I will bring my enemies down from Bashan; I will bring them up from the depths of the sea. You, my people, will wash your feet in their blood, and even your dogs will get their share!" (Psalms 68:21-23 NLT)

Kill Followers Of Other Religions:
While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)

I'll do the Koran next if you want me to. Also, that is just a tiny bit of the madness from the bible.




That's pretty much what I said and you didn't agree with at first, but now you do. Huh?




Better go find it, because I don't know what you're talking about and you don't sound like you know what you're talking about either.




I didn't know how to express that word because there's no real definition how I feel about that. You get? Probably not.




I'm pretty clear with what I'm saying. Yet, you still don't get what I'm trying to say I'm sure.




If you look above, there's more then just slavery.




And there's different types of jackass religious people too.




No, I don't think you do.



You mean the people that don't mind exploring the problem deeply, dissecting it, and showing it's pros and cons? That's the only way to really fix a problem.



They did write the bible, which should be enough to say they should know what they're talking about.




Notice how I said "SOME PEOPLE". Not everyone.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081127235518/uncyclopedia/images/9/95/Joker_clap.gif

[Oby.]

In theory maybe, but in practice the empirical results are undeniable: people believe what they were told to believe back when they were young enough that they didn't know any better.

I think there comes a point in a persons life where he can think for himself.

[georgiamay]

I think there comes a point in a persons life where he can think for himself.

Some people do believe something because their parents do. Why would their parents lie?
Plus, they would have been brought up being told to believe it. At a young age you're very easy to manipulate. Some people do think for themselves, and decide they do believe or don't believe. Others still think that what their parents said was right because it was hammered into them.

I say some. Not all.

[Oby.]

And my definition is correct.

That's opinion.




It's a small example. Here's some for Christianity that I had up in another thread -

Murder, Rape, And Pillage:
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

God Kills Children:
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

Rape And Baby Killing:
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

God Will Kill Everyone:
"I will sweep away everything in all your land," says the LORD. "I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die. I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity," says the LORD. "I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship. I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear. For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars. They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too. So now I will destroy them! And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do. They no longer ask for the LORD's guidance or seek my blessings." (Zephaniah 1:2-6 NLT)

Child Abuse:
"He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him takes care to chastise him" (Proverbs 13:24 NAB)

Kill Children:
"Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock." Psalms 137:9 NAB

Eating Feces Is Good
Each day prepare your bread as you would barley cakes. While all the people are watching, bake it over a fire using dried human dung as fuel and then eat the bread. For this is what the LORD says: Israel will eat defiled bread in the Gentile lands, where I will banish them!" Then I said, "O Sovereign LORD, must I be defiled by using human dung? For I have never been defiled before. From the time I was a child until now I have never eaten any animal that died of sickness or that I found dead. And I have never eaten any of the animals that our laws forbid." "All right," the LORD said. "You may bake your bread with cow dung instead of human dung." (Ezekiel 4:12-15 NLT)

Happiness:
And put a knife to your throat if you have a ravenous appetite. (Proverbs 23:2 NAB)

Family Hatred is OK:
(Jesus Speaking) If anyone comes to me without hating his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he can not be my disciple. (Luke 14:26 NAB)

Beat Your Children With A Rod:
Withhold not chastisement from a boy; if you beat him with a rod he will not die. Beat him with the rod, and you will save him from the nether world. (Proverbs 23:13-14 NAB)

42,000 People Die
The leaders of Ephraim responded, "The men of Gilead are nothing more than rejects from Ephraim and Manasseh." So Jephthah called out his army and attacked the men of Ephraim and defeated them. Jephthah captured the shallows of the Jordan, and whenever a fugitive from Ephraim tried to go back across, the men of Gilead would challenge him. "Are you a member of the tribe of Ephraim?" they would ask. If the man said, "No, I'm not," they would tell him to say "Shibboleth." If he was from Ephraim, he would say "Sibboleth," because people from Ephraim cannot pronounce the word correctly. Then they would take him and kill him at the shallows of the Jordan River. So forty-two thousand Ephraimites were killed at that time. (Judges 12:4-6 NLT)

God Kills More People:
(God punishes David for ordering a census of his people.) Yahweh spoke to Gad, David's seer, saying, Go and speak to David, saying, Thus says Yahweh, I offer you three things: choose you one of them, that I may do it to you. So Gad came to David, and said to him, Thus says Yahweh, Take which you will: either three years of famine; or three months to be consumed before your foes, while the sword of your enemies overtakes you; or else three days the sword of Yahweh, even pestilence in the land, and the angel of Yahweh destroying throughout all the borders of Israel. Now therefore consider what answer I shall return to him who sent me. David said to Gad, I am in a great strait: let me fall, I pray, into the hand of Yahweh; for very great are his mercies: and let me not fall into the hand of man. So Yahweh sent a pestilence on Israel; and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men. (1 Chronicles 21:9-14 WEB)

Slavery:
Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse. (1 Peter 2:18 NAB)

Murder at Babylon:
"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

Eat The Children:
So beware, for the time is coming, says the LORD, when this place will no longer be called Topheth or the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter. For I will upset the battle plans of Judah and Jerusalem and let invading armies slaughter them. The enemy will leave the dead bodies as food for the vultures and wild animals. I will wipe Jerusalem from the face of the earth, making it a monument to their stupidity. All who pass by will be appalled and will gasp at the destruction they see there. I will see to it that your enemies lay siege to the city until all the food is gone. Then those trapped inside will have to eat their own sons and daughters and friends. They will be driven to utter despair.' (Jeremiah 19:6-9 NLT)

God Sends A Bunch Of Poisonous Snakes For Some Reason:
Yes, I will send against you poisonous snakes, Against which no charm will work when they bite you, says the LORD. (Jeremiah 8:17 NAB)

120,000 Die
That is why the LORD his God allowed the king of Aram to defeat Ahaz and to exile large numbers of his people to Damascus. The armies of Israel also defeated Ahaz and inflicted many casualties on his army. In a single day Pekah son of Remaliah, Israel's king, killed 120,000 of Judah's troops because they had abandoned the LORD, the God of their ancestors. Then Zicri, a warrior from Ephraim, killed Maaseiah, the king's son; Azrikam, the king's palace commander; and Elkanah, the king's second-in-command. The armies of Israel captured 200,000 women and children from Judah and took tremendous amounts of plunder, which they took back to Samaria. (2 Chronicles 28:5-8 NLT)

God Kills 185,000 more people:
The angel of the Lord went forth and struck down one hundred and eighty-five thousand in the Assyrian camp. Early the next morning they were there, all the corpses of the dead. (Isaiah 37:36 NAB)

Humans Are Fuel For Fire:
As for you, son of man, prophesy: Thus says the Lord GOD against the Ammonites and their insults: A sword, a sword is drawn for slaughter, burnished to consume and to flash lightning, because you planned with false visions and lying divinations to lay it on the necks of depraved and wicked men whose day has come when their crimes are at an end. Return it to its sheath! In the place where you were created, in the land of your origin, I will judge you. I will pour out my indignation upon you, breathing my fiery wrath upon you, I will hand you over to ravaging men, artisans of destruction. You shall be fuel for the fire, your blood shall flow throughout the land. You shall not be remembered, for I, the LORD, have spoken. (Ezekiel 21:33-37 NAB)

Children Aren't Innocent:
How can any man be just in God’s sight, or how can any women’s child be innocent? (Job 25:4 NAB)

Priest Executing A Woman: Then Jehoiada the priest ordered the commanders who were in charge of the troops, "Take her out of the Temple, and kill anyone who tries to rescue her. Do not kill her here in the Temple of the LORD." So they seized her and led her out to the gate where horses enter the palace grounds, and they killed her there. (2 Chronicles 23:14-15 NLT)

Women Should Be Dragged By Fishhooks:
Hear this word, you cows of Bashan who are on the mountain of Samaria, Who oppress the poor, who crush the needy, Who say to your husbands, "Bring now, that we may drink!" The Lord GOD has sworn by His holiness, "Behold, the days are coming upon you When they will take you away with meat hooks, And the last of you with fish hooks. "You will go out {through} breaches {in the walls,} Each one straight before her, And you will be cast to Harmon," declares the LORD. (Amos 4:1-3 NAS)

This is just plain sick as it gets:
"Listen, you priests; this command is for you! Listen to me and take it to heart. Honor my name," says the LORD Almighty, "or I will bring a terrible curse against you. I will curse even the blessings you receive. Indeed, I have already cursed them, because you have not taken my warning seriously. I will rebuke your descendants and splatter your faces with the dung of your festival sacrifices, and I will add you to the dung heap. Then at last you will know it was I who sent you this warning so that my covenant with the Levites may continue," says the LORD Almighty. (Malachi 2:1-4 NLT)

Cannibalism:
So this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Since you have refused to obey my laws and regulations and have behaved even worse than your neighbors, I myself, the Sovereign LORD, am now your enemy. I will punish you publicly while all the nations watch. Because of your detestable idols, I will punish you more severely than I have punished anyone before or ever will again. Parents will eat their own children, and children will eat their parents. And I will punish you by scattering the few who survive to the far reaches of the earth. (Ezekiel 5:7-10)

Crazy Flood Of Death:
Finally, the water covered even the highest mountains on the earth, standing more than twenty-two feet above the highest peaks. All the living things on earth died – birds, domestic animals, wild animals, all kinds of small animals, and all the people. Everything died that breathed and lived on dry land. Every living thing on the earth was wiped out – people, animals both large and small, and birds. They were all destroyed, and only Noah was left alive, along with those who were with him in the boat. (Genesis 7:19-23 NLT)

Crushing People's Heads:
You marched across the land in awesome anger and trampled the nations in your fury. You went out to rescue your chosen people, to save your anointed ones. You crushed the heads of the wicked and laid bare their bones from head to toe. With their own weapons, you destroyed those who rushed out like a whirlwind, thinking Israel would be easy prey. (Habakkuk 3:12-14 NLT)

Hammering Stuff Into People's Heads:
Meanwhile, Sisera ran to the tent of Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, because Heber's family was on friendly terms with King Jabin of Hazor. Jael went out to meet Sisera and said to him, "Come into my tent, sir. Come in. Don't be afraid." So he went into her tent, and she covered him with a blanket. "Please give me some water," he said. "I'm thirsty." So she gave him some milk to drink and covered him again. "Stand at the door of the tent," he told her. "If anybody comes and asks you if there is anyone here, say no." But when Sisera fell asleep from exhaustion, Jael quietly crept up to him with a hammer and tent peg. Then she drove the tent peg through his temple and into the ground, and so he died. When Barak came looking for Sisera, Jael went out to meet him. She said, "Come, and I will show you the man you are looking for." So he followed her into the tent and found Sisera lying there dead, with the tent peg through his temple. So on that day Israel saw God subdue Jabin, the Canaanite king. And from that time on Israel became stronger and stronger against King Jabin, until they finally destroyed him. (Judges 4:17-24 NLT)

Christian Communism:
The community of believers was of one heart and mind, and no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they had everything in common. With great power the apostles bore witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great favor was accorded them all. There was no needy person among them, for those who owned property or houses would sell them, bring the proceeds of the sale, and put them at the feet of the apostles, and they were distributed to each according to need. (Acts 4:32-35 NAB)

God Crushes Skulls:
But God will smash the heads of his enemies, crushing the skulls of those who love their guilty ways. The Lord says, "I will bring my enemies down from Bashan; I will bring them up from the depths of the sea. You, my people, will wash your feet in their blood, and even your dogs will get their share!" (Psalms 68:21-23 NLT)

Kill Followers Of Other Religions:
While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)

You do know that murdering and killing are two different things, right? Murder is classified as an unjustified act. So when it says not to murder, it doesn't say not to kill. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying, run like crazy and kill erryone in your way, I'm just saying, these killings had justified reasons. Not like God was just like, yo, kill them because they are pissing me off. Also, there's things in the bible that I disagree on. The above is one of them. My views on Christianity are different than most Christians.



That's pretty much what I said and you didn't agree with at first, but now you do. Huh?

Sorry I wasn't so clear, but try to decipher it a little bit more.




Better go find it, because I don't know what you're talking about and you don't sound like you know what you're talking about either.


Alright, I found it.

Here's the whole sentence: I can assure you, if all religions and nonreligions - if people would just get together and be nice, your troll comments would have no meaning.

Here's what you cut off and said:your troll comments would have no meaning.

You: Except they do, because you made this thread.

My response: I only made this thread because people just trolled religions.




I didn't know how to express that word because there's no real definition how I feel about that. You get? Probably not.

Then explain it a different way.




I'm pretty clear with what I'm saying. Yet, you still don't get what I'm trying to say I'm sure.

Here's what you said at first.

Most people don't even know what your religion believes in.

That's implying that followers of different religions don't know what yours follows.



And there's different types of jackass religious people too.

...Duh? I wasn't stating that its only jackass atheists in this world, did i?





You mean the people that don't mind exploring the problem deeply, dissecting it, and showing it's pros and cons? That's the only way to really fix a problem.

No, I'm talking about the kind that like fires to spread instead of to stop. Don't try to make it sounds like you meant something different when you said it.





Notice how I said "SOME PEOPLE". Not everyone.

Oops, sorry. That's a screw up on my part.

[deadpie]

That's opinion.

My opinion is far more used more then yours.




You do know that murdering and killing are two different things, right? Murder is classified as an unjustified act. So when it says not to murder, it doesn't say not to kill. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying, run like crazy and kill erryone in your way, I'm just saying, these killings had justified reasons. Not like God was just like, yo, kill them because they are pissing me off. Also, there's things in the bible that I disagree on. The above is one of them. My views on Christianity are different than most Christians.

Religious Denial much? See, once I pull out that scripture on someone they either say one of these two things -

1) There was a good reason
2) We don't believe in that part anymore.

Tell me, when is murder ever a good thing? And actually, that is how God was like. He was pretty much like, "Yo, I'm gonna kill these guys because they're pissing me off".

OH. So you don't disagree with these parts, but probably just the jesus saving everyone part. I've said these before and I'll say it again - You cannot justify scripture that you believe in. You either believe in the whole thing because it's your religion, or you just don't. Why? Because putting your faith in the Christian God means you have to put your faith in everything he's done, the good and the bad.



Alright, I found it.

Here's the whole sentence: I can assure you, if all religions and nonreligions - if people would just get together and be nice, your troll comments would have no meaning.

Here's what you cut off and said:your troll comments would have no meaning.

You: Except they do, because you made this thread.

My response: I only made this thread because people just trolled religions.


I never said troll comments. I said my comments overall. The reason is quite obvious and I think I said this in the previous post - You can never win a religious debate. You might be more convincing or have better ideas, but there's no winner...ever. The reason is because a theist will never come to terms with there not being a God, while the atheist will never give up trying to convince them. It's a neverending soap box.


That's implying that followers of different religions don't know what yours follows.

I don't have a religion.



...Duh? I wasn't stating that its only jackass atheists in this world, did i?

But you're attacking only the jackass atheists and nobody else.




No, I'm talking about the kind that like fires to spread instead of to stop. Don't try to make it sounds like you meant something different when you said it.


That is what I meant. I meant both of those - spreading the fire and exploring it for what it has become.




Oops, sorry. That's a screw up on my part.

This whole thread is. It's never going to go anywhere. You're never going to beat me and I'll never beat you.

Welcome to the never ending soap box of religious debate.

[Contra]

So you're saying atheists don't exist?

No, I think I haven't explained myself correctly, I was trying to say that there was no way someone could convince an atheist to follow any religion or a religious person to become an atheist.

Anyway, like The Joker said, that can happen, at least in his case it did, but it is really hard.

[deadpie]

No, I think I haven't explained myself correctly, I was trying to say that there was no way someone could convince an atheist to follow any religion or a religious person to become an atheist.

Anyway, like The Joker said, that can happen, at least in his case it did, but it is really hard.

The Joker is an atheist thanks to certain members of VT. My father is an atheist thanks to me. I've seen many people turn from completely religious to extreme nihilists.

It's not as hard as you think. You just have to be open to listening to other people.

Really, I think it's harder for an atheist to convert then the other way around.

[Icarus7]

"Religion does not hurt people: it's the dumb people that follow the religion that hurt people"


Simply Prophetic. Thank you

Happy New Year to you Too :):):):):):):)

[Contra]

The Joker is an atheist thanks to certain members of VT. My father is an atheist thanks to me. I've seen many people turn from completely religious to extreme nihilists.

It's not as hard as you think. You just have to be open to listening to other people.

Really, I think it's harder for an atheist to convert then the other way around.

Yeah, you're right, I don't really have much experience in that, I just posted that saying it's hard because I was pissed off at a religious dude at the moment who tried to convert me (and failing, that's why I thought it was hard).

I completely agree in that last part. In my case, I can't become a religious person even if I wanted to.

[Cryofthewolf]

A few things to say:

First of all, I have to say that Oby has guts to say this. Now I don't fully agree with him, but he has guts nonetheless.

I can see the problem that Oby is talking about, but I don't see it too much on this site. I personally have no problem with those who think religion is useless, as long as they don't push it on me and judge me for being a religious person myself.

Saying that, I don't like it when religious people push their ideas either. Extremism on both sides is wrong, and contributes to a negative atmosphere on this site and others like it. Also, this post contributes to negativity on VT. Oby has a right to post what he wants, but if he expressed his thoughts in a calmer manner people might not be as angry at the post as they are. (Writing things like this at three in the morning doesn't help things either. I have written many bad things to people at three in the morning when I'm half asleep. -_-)

I think what it comes down to is that people should be able to share their religious/non-religious views respectfully and expect respectful answers back. I don't like debates personally, but if two people are to debate keep it should be clean and, wait for it, respectful. Respect and love makes the world go round people. Hate and anger won't cut it. <3

[deadpie]

First of all, I have to say that Oby has guts to say this. Now I don't fully agree with him, but he has guts nonetheless.

How does he have "guts"? He's saying it on an online forum. Anyone can argue on a forum. It's easier then actually saying it outside of the internet. I don't see how this makes him courageous.

[Amnesiac]

Simply Prophetic. Thank you

Happy New Year to you Too :):):):):):):)

It's a flawed statement if anything. It's the same thing as saying "large amounts of explosives don't kill people, it's the dumb people who use the large amounts of explosives that kill people". There's a point where something crosses the line between "a few people are driven insane by this; it's not really a problem" to "a lot of people are driven insane by this; it's a problem". Religion encourages so many people — a staggering amount — to ignore basic common sense and believe things that are completely illogical. It would be acceptable if only a small minority did this, but that's just not the case: a large chunk of the population is deluded into adopting extremist viewpoints. Religion is so harmful it overflows into government and oppresses the views of everyone else. I'm not saying religion should be banned, no, but I am saying that we should encourage discussion about alternate viewpoints and how religion harms modern society in many cases more than it helps it.

[Sith Lord 13]

It's a flawed statement if anything. It's the same thing as saying "large amounts of explosives don't kill people, it's the dumb people who use the large amounts of explosives that kill people". There's a point where something crosses the line between "a few people are driven insane by this; it's not really a problem" to "a lot of people are driven insane by this; it's a problem". Religion encourages so many people — a staggering amount — to ignore basic common sense and believe things that are completely illogical. It would be acceptable if only a small minority did this, but that's just not the case: a large chunk of the population is deluded into adopting extremist viewpoints. Religion is so harmful it overflows into government and oppresses the views of everyone else. I'm not saying religion should be banned, no, but I am saying that we should encourage discussion about alternate viewpoints and how religion harms modern society in many cases more than it helps it.

But there you enter the argument of whether religion is the reason or the excuse. I posit the fact that the number of people dying in this world would be either the same or greater were religion abolished. People will find any excuse to kill each other. Religion is an easy one, but they could easily squabble over anything else.

[Amnesiac]

But there you enter the argument of whether religion is the reason or the excuse. I posit the fact that the number of people dying in this world would be either the same or greater were religion abolished. People will find any excuse to kill each other. Religion is an easy one, but they could easily squabble over anything else.

True, but I'm not talking specifically about killing, rather the socio-political effects that religion has. Things like teaching Intelligent Design over evolution, censorship and religious discrimination that are counter-productive. These are issues that need to be discussed openly because they have a large effect, especially on future generations. Not talking about the downsides of religion is, in my opinion, dangerous. We can't just sit around and not have a civilized debate about an important issue because it "might offend somebody".

[embers]

But there you enter the argument of whether religion is the reason or the excuse. I posit the fact that the number of people dying in this world would be either the same or greater were religion abolished. People will find any excuse to kill each other. Religion is an easy one, but they could easily squabble over anything else.

The number of people dying might be the same, yes, but that doesn't mean the same amount of people will die due to persecution because of religious beliefs in say, a country under religious dictatorship if religion were abolished than if it were not. Finding a 'replacement excuse', which you suggest will happen if religion were somehow abolished, will not mean that the same amount of people will die - it's improbable.

It's because religion is a topic that people feel strongly about. I fail to see any strong topics that have the potential to replace religion, but then again I can't foresee the future and you may well be right.

Take the religious violence in my country (Pakistan), for example. Recently a woman was executed for blasphemy, and the governor of Punjab, and a family friend and politican, tried to pass a bill to change the law on blasphemy. The governor was shot dead by his own elite bodyguard, because they didn't share the same belief on Islam.

If Pakistan was to be liberated from Islam and the narrow-mindedness it causes, the people would still find a way to fight each other. It's in the blood. But they wouldn't kill as much, because there is less to quarrel about. Similarly if Catholicism and Protestantism, and other Christian religions were abolished, then Britain and Ireland (or the little independent groups within them that hate the other country) would still fight, but will have less to fight about.

The amount of deaths might be lowered if religion was abolished, but the fighting will always continue.

[Cryofthewolf]

How does he have "guts"? He's saying it on an online forum. Anyone can argue on a forum. It's easier then actually saying it outside of the internet. I don't see how this makes him courageous.

Well, he won't exactly be liked much after this post, as I see it. If VT happens to be important to him, he made a big risk posting this.

If it isn't, well, I might have to retract that statement. You're absolutely right; it is easy to post anything on an internet forum. =-P

[Sage]

Well, he won't exactly be liked much after this post, as I see it. If VT happens to be important to him, he made a big risk posting this.

People don't need to agree with you to respect you. I've some of the most contrarian views on this website and I have a fucking fan club.

[Sith Lord 13]

True, but I'm not talking specifically about killing, rather the socio-political effects that religion has. Things like teaching Intelligent Design over evolution, censorship and religious discrimination that are counter-productive. These are issues that need to be discussed openly because they have a large effect, especially on future generations. Not talking about the downsides of religion is, in my opinion, dangerous. We can't just sit around and not have a civilized debate about an important issue because it "might offend somebody".

I completely agree with what you've said here. From what I've understood, so does the OP. Civil, intelligent discourses about the pros and cons of religion are great. The common occurrence on many sites, including VT at times, is not that. I've seen a few threads where if I didn't argue for the side of religion the thread would have been almost a completely one sided bashing of religion, with no thought to the pros.

The number of people dying might be the same, yes, but that doesn't mean the same amount of people will die due to persecution because of religious beliefs in say, a country under religious dictatorship if religion were abolished than if it were not. Finding a 'replacement excuse', which you suggest will happen if religion were somehow abolished, will not mean that the same amount of people will die - it's improbable.

I disagree. I feel it's highly probable. They would begin to argue over differing political and philosophical viewpoints. Sure there would be a few years with lessened body counts as people looked for the new divisions, but I doubt it would decrease even half as much as you imply.

It's because religion is a topic that people feel strongly about. I fail to see any strong topics that have the potential to replace religion, but then again I can't foresee the future and you may well be right.

Science, philosophy, resources, territory, and racial tensions.

Take the religious violence in my country (Pakistan), for example. Recently a woman was executed for blasphemy, and the governor of Punjab, and a family friend and politican, tried to pass a bill to change the law on blasphemy. The governor was shot dead by his own elite bodyguard, because they didn't share the same belief on Islam.

If Pakistan was to be liberated from Islam and the narrow-mindedness it causes, the people would still find a way to fight each other. It's in the blood. But they wouldn't kill as much, because there is less to quarrel about. Similarly if Catholicism and Protestantism, and other Christian religions were abolished, then Britain and Ireland (or the little independent groups within them that hate the other country) would still fight, but will have less to fight about.

Not really. Tensions over other things would just increase. He'd have been killed for believing in Global Warming not global cooling, or some such shit.

The amount of deaths might be lowered if religion was abolished, but the fighting will always continue.

It will always continue, and I doubt the decrease will last long.

[embers]

Science, philosophy, resources, territory, and racial tensions.

But religion being existent doesn't mean that these have no reason to be fought over. If people wanted to fight over science and philosophy as much as is done over religion, they would being do so right now. Besides, philosophy is an open subject in that debates are welcomed, and science is science - believe in the facts. The narrow-mindedness and intolerance religion causes is the reason it is fought over so much.

There is already a lot of fighting over racial tension and I don't see why it would escalate to fill in the numbers for religion should it be removed from the equation.

Not really. Tensions over other things would just increase. He'd have been killed for believing in Global Warming not global cooling, or some such shit.

No. For example, the idea of global warming was created by open-minded people and has been subject to debate and accepted scientific research. Not to sound extremely anti-religious, but religion requires you to force your beliefs upon others. There aren't as many similar subjects in the world to fight over.

[Sith Lord 13]

But religion being existent doesn't mean that these have no reason to be fought over. If people wanted to fight over science and philosophy as much as is done over religion, they would being do so right now. Besides, philosophy is an open subject in that debates are welcomed, and science is science - believe in the facts. The narrow-mindedness and intolerance religion causes is the reason it is fought over so much.

There is already a lot of fighting over racial tension and I don't see why it would escalate to fill in the numbers for religion should it be removed from the equation.

Because humans are naturally violent. They're not violent because religion makes them that way, religion is violent because people make it that way.

No. For example, the idea of global warming was created by open-minded people and has been subject to debate and accepted scientific research. Not to sound extremely anti-religious, but religion requires you to force your beliefs upon others. There aren't as many similar subjects in the world to fight over.

Aside from being highly biased phrasing you used, you're wrong. I can't think of a single religion that requires you FORCE your belief on others. Some religions have spreading it as a tenet, and some do not, but none that I know of forces it. Those who force it are adding things to their religious beliefs that are not truly there. It allows them to use religion as an excuse to do what they want, which is kill.

Also, global warming doesn't have a consensus in the scientific community. There are many scientists who believe a global cooling is much more likely. However, global warming keeps the research funding flowing, so they often choose not to be to public, or, if they attempt to go public, are silenced by the rest of the scientific community.

[Amnesiac]

I completely agree with what you've said here. From what I've understood, so does the OP. Civil, intelligent discourses about the pros and cons of religion are great. The common occurrence on many sites, including VT at times, is not that. I've seen a few threads where if I didn't argue for the side of religion the thread would have been almost a completely one sided bashing of religion, with no thought to the pros.

Well, from what I've read of the OP's posts (note: I haven't read the entire thread), it seems like he's offended at the fact that we criticize religion, even if we are being honest about it. Part of analyzing the negative effects of religion involves criticizing the idea of it, something that many people find offensive — including, possibly, the OP — because, for their entire lives, they've grown up in a society where deriding religion is viewed as wrong.

[embers]

Aside from being highly biased phrasing you used, you're wrong. I can't think of a single religion that requires you FORCE your belief on others. Some religions have spreading it as a tenet, and some do not, but none that I know of forces it. Those who force it are adding things to their religious beliefs that are not truly there. It allows them to use religion as an excuse to do what they want, which is kill.

Sorry for the phrasing, but what I meant was lots of people think it requires you to force your beliefs on others, or at least reject other beliefs on the grounds that yours are right and theirs are wrong.

But Islam as a religion, for example, did require its followers to spread it, and at the time they were instructed to do exactly as God told them - to force it on other tribes. This was the original definition of jihad - struggle, or in context, struggle for Islam. Allah - God - ordered Muhammed and his followers to kill the tribesmen that did not agree with his views. In that sense, it is forcing your beliefs on others.

The Old Testament also has various 'fight for your lord'-ish quotes, but I really can't be bothered to have a scripture war.

Also, global warming doesn't have a consensus in the scientific community. There are many scientists who believe a global cooling is much more likely. However, global warming keeps the research funding flowing, so they often choose not to be to public, or, if they attempt to go public, are silenced by the rest of the scientific community.

But surely it can't become a topic controversial enough to kill over - which was your point.

[Sith Lord 13]

Well, from what I've read of the OP's posts (note: I haven't read the entire thread), it seems like he's offended at the fact that we criticize religion, even if we are being honest about it. Part of analyzing the negative effects of religion involves criticizing the idea of it, something that many people find offensive — including, possibly, the OP — because, for their entire lives, they've grown up in a society where deriding religion is viewed as wrong.

He stated in the OP that civil discourse is OK. It's when it turns into bashing that the issue arises. Unfortunately that happens quite often on VT.

EDIT: Did not see your post before.

Sorry for the phrasing, but what I meant was lots of people think it requires you to force your beliefs on others, or at least reject other beliefs on the grounds that yours are right and theirs are wrong.

What the religion actually teaches and how people have corrupted it to allow them to justify violence are two separate things.

But Islam as a religion, for example, did require its followers to spread it, and at the time they were instructed to do exactly as God told them - to force it on other tribes. This was the original definition of jihad - struggle, or in context, struggle for Islam. Allah - God - ordered Muhammed and his followers to kill the tribesmen that did not agree with his views. In that sense, it is forcing your beliefs on others.

And I have no doubt that when they killed the tribesmen they took their land. Religion was an excuse, not a reason.

The Old Testament also has various 'fight for your lord'-ish quotes, but I really can't be bothered to have a scripture war.

Usually during times of war. God was being used to rally the troops

But surely it can't become a topic controversial enough to kill over - which was your point.

Yes, it can be. Anything can be. People will use ANYTHING to justify their desire for bloodshed.

[embers]

And I have no doubt that when they killed the tribesmen they took their land. Religion was an excuse, not a reason.

Religion had to be the reason in that case, because it was God who supposedly told them to fight. It was God who told them to slaughter nonbelievers, and fight for the land, the women, and to convert others by force to their faith. Religion was the reason, the land and the women were the reward.

Yes, it can be. Anything can be. People will use ANYTHING to justify their desire for bloodshed.

Well, I suppose so. But you're saying that in the future we won't have progressed any further mentally and as we resolve one reason for fighting, something stupid will pop up to fight for? Surely we'll be smarter than that in the future, even if just slightly?

[Cloud]

Moved to ROTW since its more fitting there
Debate away

[Sith Lord 13]

Religion had to be the reason in that case, because it was God who supposedly told them to fight. It was God who told them to slaughter nonbelievers, and fight for the land, the women, and to convert others by force to their faith. Religion was the reason, the land and the women were the reward.

No, it was people who wanted the land SAYING god told them to do it.

Well, I suppose so. But you're saying that in the future we won't have progressed any further mentally and as we resolve one reason for fighting, something stupid will pop up to fight for? Surely we'll be smarter than that in the future, even if just slightly?

I hope you're right but I highly doubt it. If this species makes it another 10,000 years, maybe. But more to the point is that had religion never existed there would have been no less bloodshed. Whether or not religion exists the bloodshed will continue.

[Cryofthewolf]

People don't need to agree with you to respect you. I've some of the most contrarian views on this website and I have a fucking fan club.

True, true, but that doesn't change the fact that there are people who won't like him for posting this.

Nice, you have a fan club? I'll have to check it out. :P

[Severus Snape]

This video explains all my thoughts on the matter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxqy32SFW-w

The logic is quite simple; it is infuriating when individuals with flawed logic and an old book dictate universal morality and theology. I respond viciously to this both in internet forums and life scenarios. I will not be preached to.

Everyone is mostly atheist even if they don't know it.