How World War II should have ended.

[Saturn]

http://i52.tinypic.com/303it6p.png
http://i53.tinypic.com/3451qo0.png
Blue = America
Game = Making History: The Calm & The Storm

With the United States annexing the entire world. I started out taking out Spain, Central America, South America, the Caribbean, and the eastern half of the Middle East. The other major powers at the time were busy fighting each other (UK, France, China, USSR vs Germany, Italy, Japan) to intervene in my conquest of all of the third-world countries. I then built up the cities in my newly annexed territories as advanced industrial cities, and I built an advanced transportation system connecting my territories, so I could virtually transport troops from North America to South America in only a couple of turns, and likewise transport between territories in other continents.

I then invaded the Soviet Union, which at the time wasn't allied with The British, French, Chinese, or any other country (they were fighting the Axis on their own). With the USSR already losing on the western front, and me attacking them with several advanced tank divisions from the south (the Middle East), I quickly divided the USSR and cut off their supply lines. I then conquered both the eastern half of the USSR and the western half of the USSR before Germany could.

I then annexed Mongolia and Tuva. I was amassing forces on all of my borders and preparing for war. I then launched an attack against the United Kingdom by using ships to escort tank transports and invaded the UK and Ireland. I did the same to New Zealand at the same time. While also invading China from former Mongolia, British India from the Middle East, the western Middle East, and Africa. I attempted to invade Australia the same way I invaded the UK and New Zealand, but the Australian fleet held me back long enough for a large multinational fleet to arrive and aid Australia in defeating my landing party and escort ships. I also declared war on and annexed Portugal.

In the east I had spread my forces too thin and China was beginning to take some of my Soviet territories. I quickly launched a counter-offensive from my Middle Eastern cities, which I had set to building advanced tanks. And eventually managed to bring China down.

After making short work of the Allies, I annexed Finland. Then the Axis declared war on me. I then launched a two-way assault against Germany, attacking from what used to be Russia and what used to be Spain, where I had been amassing troops since early on in the game. I then blitzkrieged straight to Berlin, and killed the heart of the beast that is Germany. With Berlin gone, I finished mopping up the remaining German and Italian territories. I decided to declare war on Sweden, but their massive navy was defeating my navy. And I threw my largest fleet at them too. So I signed a peace treaty with them, in which I forced them to cede the one territory I had taken from them already, and to join an alliance with me. This is the first and only alliance I had in the entire game.

I then pushed the remaining Nazis out of Norway and Sweden, and focused my attention towards finishing off Australia and Japan. I moved in and island hopped to get to Japan, their fleet proved to be some challenge, but I eventually brought my naval forces over from Hawaii and Europe, and annexed Japan. Simultaneously while taking down Japan, I had managed to breach through Australia's naval blockade, and at that point I annexed them. When it was only me and Sweden left, I canceled my alliance with Sweden and declared war on them, and conquered them. And that's how World War II should have ended in real life. In your opinion, do you think this is how World War II should have been in real life?

[Rutherford The Brave]

You do realize that prior to the second world war. We in America had one of the smallest and weakest armies...Us taking over the entirety of the world...Hell we wouldnt even stop the Germans in our best day had we not had the help of Britain, Had Britain be lost, we sure as hell would be next and their whole force and with their necular program ends your idea as quickly as it came. It should have ended the way it did, or else it would end with them winning, anyway you see it.

[Amnesiac]

A unified state like that isn't possible. An ending like that to World War II would never have been possible. The United States was powerful, yes, but not nearly that strong.

The problem with a nation that size is that it's completely uncontrollable. No one government can keep authority over billions of people and all the land on Earth.

[The Dark Lord]

You are aware that building a world wide dictatorship was the very thing the USA were fighting against?

[Perseus]

Britain would not have been invaded that easily. Why do you think Hitler launched the Luftwaffe to take out the RAF? Because the RAF would have destroyed landing craft, etc., and Britain still had the strongest navy around.

[Saturn]

Things were really working out great when I had conquered Latin America, the Middle East, and Spain economic-wise. But after I started to take out the rest of the world, starting with the USSR, I was starting to notice how I was relying almost entirely on my extremely large stockpile of supplies, since there were fewer and fewer countries to trade with. Being entirely self-sufficient and controlling hundreds of major cities put a huge strain on my coal supply, and eventually exhausted it. But despite this, I managed to conquer the world. In real life America's coal supply would probably take a very long time to restore and they would have make the coal income positive. I couldn't even do that in the game, so I can only imagine how hard it would be in real life.

[Magus]

You do realize that prior to the second world war. We in America had one of the smallest and weakest armies...Us taking over the entirety of the world...Hell we wouldnt even stop the Germans in our best day had we not had the help of Britain, Had Britain be lost, we sure as hell would be next and their whole force and with their necular program ends your idea as quickly as it came. It should have ended the way it did, or else it would end with them winning, anyway you see it.

Remember, Germany was the fastest growing in terms of technology during the reign of the NAZIs, along Britian with counter technologies. I mean, they had scientist working in all fields of science. It was a perfect time for the scientist to conduct tests, they had enough time and resources more than ever at that time.

I believe if it there wasn't any war, we would be writing on paper to message one another and listen to big radio boxes and etc.

[Azunite]

War had advantages. German technology carried the world to a next level.
By the way, Saturn, I wonder how come you conquered Turkey? :P

This kind of a state is impossbie. And all you say is " I cancelled Alliance and attacked "
The first moment you would breake an alliance the whole world would be on ou.
End of American dream!
Even today's america cannot do such a thing

[Rutherford The Brave]

Things were really working out great when I had conquered Latin America, the Middle East, and Spain economic-wise. But after I started to take out the rest of the world, starting with the USSR, I was starting to notice how I was relying almost entirely on my extremely large stockpile of supplies, since there were fewer and fewer countries to trade with. Being entirely self-sufficient and controlling hundreds of major cities put a huge strain on my coal supply, and eventually exhausted it. But despite this, I managed to conquer the world. In real life America's coal supply would probably take a very long time to restore and they would have make the coal income positive. I couldn't even do that in the game, so I can only imagine how hard it would be in real life.

It wouldn't restore itself. Coal is a nonrenewable resource....

[Azunite]

Seriously, restore coal?

[Rutherford The Brave]

Once you use it all, your not just facing, a energy crisis. The amount of coal you born in relativity to time, would create an environmental crisis which would deplete your money reserves.

[Azunite]

Once you use it all, your not just facing, a energy crisis. The amount of coal you born in relativity to time, would create an environmental crisis which would deplete your money reserves.

Not to mention the pollution by massive usage of coal and other fossil fuels

[Rutherford The Brave]

Not to mention the pollution by massive usage of coal and other fossil fuels

I know thats what I said :P

[Perseus]

Things were really working out great when I had conquered Latin America, the Middle East, and Spain economic-wise. But after I started to take out the rest of the world, starting with the USSR, I was starting to notice how I was relying almost entirely on my extremely large stockpile of supplies, since there were fewer and fewer countries to trade with. Being entirely self-sufficient and controlling hundreds of major cities put a huge strain on my coal supply, and eventually exhausted it. But despite this, I managed to conquer the world. In real life America's coal supply would probably take a very long time to restore and they would have make the coal income positive. I couldn't even do that in the game, so I can only imagine how hard it would be in real life.

You have to take into consideration that that is a game. Real life is not that easy. I gave an example of how your idea was flawed.

[Amnesiac]

You have to take into consideration that that is a game. Real life is not that easy. I gave an example of how your idea was flawed.

Yes, RTS's like the one you're playing are nowhere near accurate representations of real life scenarios. For example, I have a political game where the goal is to win the 2008 election. I can easily turn the entire map blue or red using one simple strategy. In reality, the chances of that happening are outrageously difficult.

[Azunite]

America lost at Vietnam. It was a warning that even imperialistic powers could not overcome patriotism. What makes you think America should be supreme over other nations, dear Hitler?

[trooneh]

Britain would not have been invaded that easily. Why do you think Hitler launched the Luftwaffe to take out the RAF? Because the RAF would have destroyed landing craft, etc., and Britain still had the strongest navy around.


Honestly, at the end of the war, the United States Navy was much larger than the Royal Navy, as well as the USAF being much larger than the RAF. At the start of the war, though, it is true that the British had the strongest navy in the world.

[Kahn]

You know why Hitler was such a bad leader? Because he was a fucking retard. My reasons are as follows: He failed to get into art school... Twice. Now, getting into art school is extremely easy. He managed to not only get denied entry once, but twice. That was his passion. He wanted to be an artist.

Oh, you know that protest? The Munich Beer Putsch? It was basically just a, "LETS GET ARRESTED!" event. He managed to get off with "high treason" and write a book so fucking horrible that it made me cringe reading it. Yes, I read Mein Kampf. As a politician he was a famous speaker despite having a funny accent, (Remember, he wasn't native to Germany. He was Austrian.), had trouble breaking 40% in the polls and was assassinating everyone that so much whispered about him. I would accuse the man of witchery were I not so sure he'd fuck that up too.

This brings me to my last point. His contributations as a military tactician. He allied himself with a living cartoon character (https://thebrightestman.wikispaces.com/file/view/Benito_Mussolini.jpg/70275611/Benito_Mussolini.jpg). Yeah, he existed. "But what about his invasion of France!?" He didn't do shit. What he did do, though, was allow 300,000 allies to get away in the Battle of Dunkirk. Oh, and he also blew the Battle of Britain when he had virtually every advantage going for him.

"But Adam! He managed to leave the UK hanging by a thread..!" So? Guess who was on the other side of him? Stalin. It doesn't matter. There is no way he would've defeated Stalin. It was just a matter of how much of Europe he controlled by the time Stalin crushed him.

The outcome of World War II came out the way it should've. The guy that had more luck than brains lost everything he won, and more.

[trooneh]

You know why Hitler was such a bad leader? Because he was a fucking retard. My reasons are as follows: He failed to get into art school... Twice. Now, getting into art school is extremely easy. He managed to not only get denied entry once, but twice. That was his passion. He wanted to be an artist.

Oh, you know that protest? The Munich Beer Putsch? It was basically just a, "LETS GET ARRESTED!" event. He managed to get off with "high treason" and write a book so fucking horrible that it made me cringe reading it. Yes, I read Mein Kampf. As a politician he was a famous speaker despite having a funny accent, (Remember, he wasn't native to Germany. He was Austrian.), had trouble breaking 40% in the polls and was assassinating everyone that so much whispered about him. I would accuse the man of witchery were I not so sure he'd fuck that up too.

This brings me to my last point. His contributations as a military tactician. He allied himself with a living cartoon character (https://thebrightestman.wikispaces.com/file/view/Benito_Mussolini.jpg/70275611/Benito_Mussolini.jpg). Yeah, he existed. "But what about his invasion of France!?" He didn't do shit. What he did do, though, was allow 300,000 allies to get away in the Battle of Dunkirk. Oh, and he also blew the Battle of Britain when he had virtually every advantage going for him.

"But Adam! He managed to leave the UK hanging by a thread..!" So? Guess who was on the other side of him? Stalin. It doesn't matter. There is no way he would've defeated Stalin. It was just a matter of how much of Europe he controlled by the time Stalin crushed him.

The outcome of World War II came out the way it should've. The guy that had more luck than brains lost everything he won, and more.

Hitler wasn't a retard. In terms of politics and propaganda, he was a genius. He was also a master at bluffs, which is what allowed him to gain so many victories in the first half of the war. One of the famous lines after the war by Wilhelm Keitel (via the Nuremberg Diary) was alone the lines of not understanding why the Western allies did not move in September of 1939 when they outnumbered the Germans 10:1. The reason? Hitler bluffed that he had more men there than he really did.

Your argument that Hitler never would've been able to defeat Stalin might be true, but a few small mistakes, such as pushing back Operation Barbarossa in order to deal with the problems Italy was having in Greece, led to the Germans fighting in the winter before reaching Moscow. Moscow very well might have fallen had it not been for this. It's doubtful that Hitler would've been able to push over the Ural Mountains, but I don't know how well the Soviet Union could fight with all its major population centers under German control. It's hard to say.

I do fully agree with you though that Hitler was not a good tactician. I will only give the following battles in order to prove that: Battle of Stalingrad; Battle of the Bulge; Battle of Leningrad; Battle of Kursk (where his consistent delays led to a strengthening of Red Army positions). There are more, but those are the first to come to mind.

[Tristin.]

i read like the first bit of this and the first thing that came into my mind was "AMERICAN ARROGANCE" :P

[The Dark Lord]

You know why Hitler was such a bad leader? Because he was a fucking retard.

You know why Hitler was such a good leader? Because he saved Germany from itself. Whatever you say about Adolf Hitler his economic policies saved Germany and are the backbone of their economic success today. It is easy to attack Hitler for what he did in terms of foreign policy and his actions later in his Presidency, but as a political leader he was successful. His propaganda campaign to get him elected in the 1st place is still the greatest political campaign of all time

As a politician he was a famous speaker despite having a funny accent, (Remember, he wasn't native to Germany. He was Austrian.), had trouble breaking 40% in the polls and was assassinating everyone that so much whispered about him. I would accuse the man of witchery were I not so sure he'd fuck that up too.

Winston Churchill had a lisp, what point does his accent prove? He won 44% of the votes in 1933, putting that in context George Bush became President in 2000 with only 47.9% of the vote, in a country where people only have 2 real choices, Hitler won 44% of the vote against 10 parties.

This brings me to my last point. His contributations as a military tactician. He allied himself with a living cartoon character (https://thebrightestman.wikispaces.com/file/view/Benito_Mussolini.jpg/70275611/Benito_Mussolini.jpg). Yeah, he existed. "But what about his invasion of France!?" He didn't do shit. What he did do, though, was allow 300,000 allies to get away in the Battle of Dunkirk. Oh, and he also blew the Battle of Britain when he had virtually every advantage going for him. .

He conquered most of mainland Europe and only the English Channel saved Britain, without America's intervention Hitler would have conquered Russia and Britain.

"But Adam! He managed to leave the UK hanging by a thread..!" So? Guess who was on the other side of him? Stalin. It doesn't matter. There is no way he would've defeated Stalin. It was just a matter of how much of Europe he controlled by the time Stalin crushed him.

Had the Nazis invaded Russia earlier in 1941, they would have won. A lack of proper equipment to cope with the Russian winter was the reason of their defeat in Russia, not the tactical superiority of Joe Stalin

The outcome of World War II came out the way it should've. The guy that had more luck than brains lost everything he won, and more.

I agree that he became slightly crazy towards his death, but as an economist and political tactician he was very talented. I'm neither Pro-Nazi nor am I Pro-Hitler's views of jews etc, but it is unfair and untrue to describe him as a "retard", Hitler had many fatal flaws but he rebuild Germany from the death and had the lives better than what they had been before him, in the period 1933 to 1939.

[Azunite]

I agree with Matthew here.

Hitler may be a Nazi, he may hate Jews and have breakfast in Berlin and then eat his lunch at Paris but he indeed resurrected Germany.
Treary of Versailles had literally ended Germany but Hitler rallied Germans and restored Germany to it's former glory within mere months ( before the war ). When Germany had no industry, he made some serious improvements in global technology.

If we come to his blunders...
Chief you are maybe right, he didn't do a shit when he invaded France ( and the Lowland Countries at the same time ) because he had so many troops and French were eager to surrender he didn't need to do anything.

Russia? Hitler's only mistake there was that he was having a streak of victories and he didn't rest to supply winter equipment to his troops. Hitler didn't lose at Stalingrad because of some Vassily Zaitsev ( famous sniper ) and half-loaded MosinNagant rifles.

After the American invasion of Normandy, America entered the war as a fresh force against the tired troops of Germany. Of course Hitler wasn't as bright as American generals but he almost won the war at Ardennes, don't forget that.

Hitler created the world's first stealth bomber in 1945 ( HO-9 or HO-IX ) while Americans created the first stealth bomber decades later after they stole German technology!
King Tiger tank was simply the best tank of it's age.

Plus, come on... Without Hitler there wouldn't be a Volkswagen :)

[Kahn]

You know why Hitler was such a good leader? Because he saved Germany from itself. Whatever you say about Adolf Hitler his economic policies saved Germany and are the backbone of their economic success today. It is easy to attack Hitler for what he did in terms of foreign policy and his actions later in his Presidency, but as a political leader he was successful. His propaganda campaign to get him elected in the 1st place is still the greatest political campaign of all time

He saved Germany from itself? Yeah. Maybe the short term, he allowed the economy to revive. The long term effects were fucking horrible. Two countries occupied it's capital city for 40 years. He didn't save the country, he destroyed his country. On top of that, since World War II, they still owe some amounts of debt from the two wars that they started.

I agree with you that his propaganda was astounding, though. Goebbels and Hitler were great masters of persuasion.

Winston Churchill had a lisp, what point does his accent prove? He won 44% of the votes in 1933, putting that in context George Bush became President in 2000 with only 47.9% of the vote, in a country where people only have 2 real choices, Hitler won 44% of the vote against 10 parties.

I didn't mean anything by this (The voice thing). I'm just saying he wasn't native to Germany even though he was a famous speaker. :l

He conquered most of mainland Europe and only the English Channel saved Britain, without America's intervention Hitler would have conquered Russia and Britain.

No. There is no physically possible way that they would've stopped Stalin. Stalin already had troops ready for war in 1939. He wanted to join the Axis, and Hitler rejected the revised draft that Stalin had sent him. With the help of Stalin, nothing would've stopped the Axis. The reason the armistice was created between the two nations was because Hitler was frightened by the power that Stalin had.


Had the Nazis invaded Russia earlier in 1941, they would have won. A lack of proper equipment to cope with the Russian winter was the reason of their defeat in Russia, not the tactical superiority of Joe Stalin

No. Had they invaded earlier, they may have pushed further into the USSR, but it doesn't matter. They would've eventually been forced to fight in the winter, and it's fucking Russia. Fucking Russia. Let me show you something.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Ww2_allied_axis_1941_mar.png/800px-Ww2_allied_axis_1941_mar.png

The red is the USSR, obviously. The black is the Nazi regime. This is 1941.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/Ww2_allied_axis_1942_nov.png/800px-Ww2_allied_axis_1942_nov.png

That is how much the Nazi's had taken at the peak of their occupation of USSR. Compare the maps. Not only did he come unprepared, but it would've taken an extensive amount of troops for Hitler to push all of the way through the USSR. It just wasn't plausible. You know how I mentioned the armistice earlier? Yeah. Another reason for that was because the Nazi's were ill prepared to invade then. They were still ill prepared to invade the USSR at the time they did. Had they delayed it any longer, Stalin would've been even more ready and would've pushed the Nazi's back at their first attempt. Had they attacked even sooner they still wouldn't have been ready. They may have pushed further into the country, but to no avail.

I agree that he became slightly crazy towards his death, but as an economist and political tactician he was very talented. I'm neither Pro-Nazi nor am I Pro-Hitler's views of jews etc, but it is unfair and untrue to describe him as a "retard", Hitler had many fatal flaws but he rebuild Germany from the death and had the lives better than what they had been before him, in the period 1933 to 1939.

No. He didn't rebuild a country from death. He just revived it, fed it some dinner, then proceeded to dismember all of it's limbs, and then wring its neck. Basically Germany was left a torso without limbs. It couldn't do anything after.

Kudos to him for jump starting the economy a little. Maybe he saved a few people.



Hitler may be a Nazi, he may hate Jews and have breakfast in Berlin and then eat his lunch at Paris but he indeed resurrected Germany.
Treary of Versailles had literally ended Germany but Hitler rallied Germans and restored Germany to it's former glory within mere months ( before the war ). When Germany had no industry, he made some serious improvements in global technology.

Mere months? No. It took upwards to 1 or 2 years, sir. And it's former glory? What glory? The Nazi Party didn't glorify Germany, it ended it's glory before it became evident.

Germany was the largest industrial power by the turn of the twentieth century, by the way. He only made improvements to global technology to help him create new and improved weapons. Oh. And automobiles. I don't know his motive for that, but he liked cars.

If we come to his blunders...
Chief you are maybe right, he didn't do a shit when he invaded France ( and the Lowland Countries at the same time ) because he had so many troops and French were eager to surrender he didn't need to do anything.

So you're saying if Hitler contributed to the invasion it would've been better? No. Had he contributed I'm sure the campaign would've taken longer. He didn't devise the plan to take down the Maginot line. His generals did. He wouldn't have been able to take France by himself.

Russia? Hitler's only mistake there was that he was having a streak of victories and he didn't rest to supply winter equipment to his troops. Hitler didn't lose at Stalingrad because of some Vassily Zaitsev ( famous sniper ) and half-loaded MosinNagant rifles.

It doesn't matter. Had he rested, the Soviets would've had time to resupply, get aid from their allies, (The U.S had entered while Operation Barbossa was underway), and they would've been able to push back the already weakened Nazi soldiers. Sorry, the USSR could not have been conquered.

After the American invasion of Normandy, America entered the war as a fresh force against the tired troops of Germany. Of course Hitler wasn't as bright as American generals but he almost won the war at Ardennes, don't forget that.

His generals were some of the brightest in the world. Hitler didn't almost win at Ardennes, his generals did. Oh, and they almost won. In war it's either you lose or win. Not almost. You get no credit for almost winning.

Hitler created the world's first stealth bomber in 1945 ( HO-9 or HO-IX ) while Americans created the first stealth bomber decades later after they stole German technology!
King Tiger tank was simply the best tank of it's age.

http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/2/0/0/36200.jpg?v=1

That plane was basically a wooden rocket that had no way of gliding, flying, or anything. He also issued that wonderful technology and used it in abundance rather than using his supposed Stealth Bomber.

http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/3/0/5/36305.jpg?v=1

http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/2/1/4/36214.jpg?v=1

Oh, he also issued these. What are they? Look at it. Look at it. That mother fucker right there is called the HE-162. Want to know what it was used for? Well, it was put under the "Throwaway fighter" category which speaks for itself.

It had a jet capable of 1,700 pounds of thrust assembled by random townsfolk. No, it wasn't assembled in a factory by professionals, this jet was intended to be created and manufactured by the general population. It was also made of plywood, and the jet was basically glued together, and the adhesives used to put the jet together was acidic to the plywood.

The last addition to this failure? Rush the process of creating it and have the first prototype in 90 days. Double check. This thing was also supposed to be flown by the Hitlers Youth.

During the first test flight the nose managed to hilariously fly off making the pilot (Hitler Youth member) to plummet to the ground. During the second test it went a little better. Instead of plumetting to the ground, the wing fucking ripped off of the plane altogether allowing it to ludicrously spin to the ground. They still issued the plane after that.

Basically, the Nazi technology went from astounding to desperate within a few years. Putting people in these planes was like taking a bunch of toddlers from the go-kart track and having them pilot Millennium Falcons while solving the Rubik's cube.

http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/2/8/2/36282.jpg?v=1

Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Awesome boxcar?! No? What were you thinking? That's an actual plane? Really? You mean the Nazi's actually issued this to fly and fight actual sized fighters? Nah. You're kidding. Really? What was it called? The flying bomb? Wow.

Basically with the Flying Bomb, the Nazi's looked at a missle and asked themselves "How can we strap a pilot onto one of those things?" They had to have volunteers sign contracts basically saying the thing was suicide. Yeah, the chances of survival were less than one percent.

http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/2/8/3/36283.jpg?v=1

Plus, come on... Without Hitler there wouldn't be a Volkswagen :)

Sure. Lets massacre 6 million Jews, but hey, we get Volkswagen.

[Azunite]

I am not talking about HE-162. HO-9 is completely different ( Check Nazi Wonder Weapons)
You are just showing some failure models of aircraft made by Germans to make their tech look bad.

And one thing, take down the Maginot line? They just went into France AROUND the Maginot line, they didn't even touch it!

And well, of course the rest was planned by his generals but do you say for example: "Then Eisenhower started Operation X and advanced on France and won these battles" or do you count the names of all the generals?

And your quote : " If Hitler waited a little longer for Soviet Invasion, Stalin would also be prepared. "
Stalin had no idea that Germany would attack them.

Edit: This is Horten 9
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/7121/ho9v113.jpg (http://img340.imageshack.us/i/ho9v113.jpg/)

And years later, after reverse engineering, Americans copied it and...

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/4262/14530522.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/i/14530522.jpg/)

[Perseus]

He conquered most of mainland Europe and only the English Channel saved Britain,




England was saved by the English Channel and the RAF and Hitler's hesitation to attacking Britain after the Battle of Dunkirk since Hitler liked the British. See attachment where ever it is. (Paper I did on the Battle of Britain - eighteen pages)
I agree with Matthew here.



because he had so many troops and French were eager to surrender he didn't need to do anything.

The French had the strongest army in the world at the time. They were not "eager to surrender". They were blitzed to shit. They could not defend against the German's blitzkrieg coming at them from their ill-defended flanks and helping out Scandinavia at the same time.

[Kahn]

And your quote : " If Hitler waited a little longer for Soviet Invasion, Stalin would also be prepared. "
Stalin had no idea that Germany would attack them.

Doesn't matter. He was mobilizing an army from the time he got into power. His military just would've been stronger no matter what time they attacked.

[Azunite]

England was saved by the English Channel and the RAF and Hitler's hesitation to attacking Britain after the Battle of Dunkirk since Hitler liked the British. See attachment where ever it is. (Paper I did on the Battle of Britain - eighteen pages)
The French had the strongest army in the world at the time. They were not "eager to surrender". They were blitzed to shit. They could defend against the German's blitzkrieg coming at them from their ill-defended flanks and helping out Scandinavia at the same time.

The French had the strongest army at that time???

You say "They could defend their flanks."
Then why they couldn't?

[Perseus]

The French had the strongest army at that time???

You say "They could defend their flanks."
Then why they couldn't?

They did have the strongest army in the world.

And that was a mistake. I fixed it. It was supposed to be "could not". I must have caught it when you were quoting my post.

[trooneh]

He saved Germany from itself? Yeah. Maybe the short term, he allowed the economy to revive. The long term effects were fucking horrible. Two countries occupied it's capital city for 40 years. He didn't save the country, he destroyed his country. On top of that, since World War II, they still owe some amounts of debt from the two wars that they started.

I agree with you that his propaganda was astounding, though. Goebbels and Hitler were great masters of persuasion.


I believe that they don't still owe debts, honestly. Not sure on this but I'm 99% sure.



I didn't mean anything by this (The voice thing). I'm just saying he wasn't native to Germany even though he was a famous speaker. :l


He was great at firing up audiences as well as speaking to his audience. He was a master at reading people and influencing them. For more, read Inside the Third Reich by Speer.


No. There is no physically possible way that they would've stopped Stalin. Stalin already had troops ready for war in 1939. He wanted to join the Axis, and Hitler rejected the revised draft that Stalin had sent him. With the help of Stalin, nothing would've stopped the Axis. The reason the armistice was created between the two nations was because Hitler was frightened by the power that Stalin had.


Stalin was actually frightened of Hitler, in 1939. The USSR could barely beat Finland at that point in time (The Winter War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War)) and would not have been able to beat the Germans. Stalin was hoping to buy time in order to build up the materiel as well as manpower available.


No. Had they invaded earlier, they may have pushed further into the USSR, but it doesn't matter. They would've eventually been forced to fight in the winter, and it's fucking Russia. Fucking Russia. Let me show you something.

Image (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Ww2_allied_axis_1941_mar.png/800px-Ww2_allied_axis_1941_mar.png)

The red is the USSR, obviously. The black is the Nazi regime. This is 1941.

Image (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/Ww2_allied_axis_1942_nov.png/800px-Ww2_allied_axis_1942_nov.png)

That is how much the Nazi's had taken at the peak of their occupation of USSR. Compare the maps. Not only did he come unprepared, but it would've taken an extensive amount of troops for Hitler to push all of the way through the USSR. It just wasn't plausible. You know how I mentioned the armistice earlier? Yeah. Another reason for that was because the Nazi's were ill prepared to invade then. They were still ill prepared to invade the USSR at the time they did. Had they delayed it any longer, Stalin would've been even more ready and would've pushed the Nazi's back at their first attempt. Had they attacked even sooner they still wouldn't have been ready. They may have pushed further into the country, but to no avail.



The belief of Hitler, which may or may not be true, was that if Moscow fell then Stalin would sue for peace, and then he could turn his attention towards the British. One of Hitler's mistakes, though, was to focus more on short-range than long-range bombers. Stalin did a brilliant job of moving all the key Soviet factories east of the Ural mountains where they couldn't be bombed by any German aircraft.


No. He didn't rebuild a country from death. He just revived it, fed it some dinner, then proceeded to dismember all of it's limbs, and then wring its neck. Basically Germany was left a torso without limbs. It couldn't do anything after.

Kudos to him for jump starting the economy a little. Maybe he saved a few people.


The German economy was rebuilt entirely because of the armaments industry, but that couldn't be sustained, so you are right. Hitler also stated:

If the war is lost, the nation will also perish. This fate is inevitable. There is no necessity to take into consideration the basis which the people will need to continue a most primitive existence. On the contrary, it will be better to destroy things ourselves because this nation will have proved to be the weaker one and the future will belong solely to the stronger eastern nation [Russia]. Besides, those who remain after the battle are only the inferior ones, for the good ones have been killed.
I agree with you that Hitler destroyed Germany.

Mere months? No. It took upwards to 1 or 2 years, sir. And it's former glory? What glory? The Nazi Party didn't glorify Germany, it ended it's glory before it became evident.


It was viewed as glorious by the Germans until things started going downhill in 1941.

Germany was the largest industrial power by the turn of the twentieth century, by the way. He only made improvements to global technology to help him create new and improved weapons. Oh. And automobiles. I don't know his motive for that, but he liked cars.

Wrong. It took until 1914 for it to surpass the United Kingdom, and it never surpassed the United States in industrial potential.


So you're saying if Hitler contributed to the invasion it would've been better? No. Had he contributed I'm sure the campaign would've taken longer. He didn't devise the plan to take down the Maginot line. His generals did. He wouldn't have been able to take France by himself.


He came up with some of the plan for that battle, though von Manstein and Guderian came up with the main idea of Blitzkrieg.


It doesn't matter. Had he rested, the Soviets would've had time to resupply, get aid from their allies, (The U.S had entered while Operation Barbossa was underway), and they would've been able to push back the already weakened Nazi soldiers. Sorry, the USSR could not have been conquered.

The United States did not get officially involved until the end of 1941, the invasion of the USSR occurred in July. However, they did supply some materiel to the Soviets at that point. I do agree that after the Germans failed to take Moscow, there was no way to defeat the Soviets.



His generals were some of the brightest in the world. Hitler didn't almost win at Ardennes, his generals did. Oh, and they almost won. In war it's either you lose or win. Not almost. You get no credit for almost winning.


The battle through the Ardennes was actually Hitler's idea. His generals favored a more limited objective, as seen here via Wikipedia which cites the book The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by Shirer:
Several senior German military officers including Walter Model and Gerd Von Rundstedt expressed concern as to whether the goals of the offensive could be realized. They offered alternative plans but Hitler would not listen. The plan banked on unfavorable weather including heavy fog and low-lying clouds which would minimize the Allied air advantage.

The article also states:
Model and von Rundstedt both believed aiming for Antwerp was too ambitious, given Germany's scarce resources in late 1944. At the same time, they felt maintaining a purely defensive posture (as had been the case since Normandy) would only delay defeat, not avert it. They thus developed alternative, less ambitious plans that did not aim to cross the Meuse River, Model's being Unternehmen Herbstnebel (Operation Autumn Mist) and von Rundstedt's Fall Martin ("Case Martin"). The two field marshals combined their plans to present a joint "small solution" to Hitler, who rejected it in favor of his "big solution".

As you see, Hitler wanted the bigger offensive rather than a smaller less ambitious one. He did not follow his generals in that case.

[Continuum]

As you see, Hitler wanted the bigger offensive rather than a smaller less ambitious one. He did not follow his generals in that case.

Blitzkrieg. Hitler's plans were always followed, as for their confusing chain of command. They couldn't have war machines if they weren't given command over them by Hitler in the first place.


The belief of Hitler, which may or may not be true, was that if Moscow fell then Stalin would sue for peace, and then he could turn his attention towards the British. One of Hitler's mistakes, though, was to focus more on short-range than long-range bombers. Stalin did a brilliant job of moving all the key Soviet factories east of the Ural mountains where they couldn't be bombed by any German aircraft.


It was evident that they were going to lose against Russia, even though they were militarily weak at that time. It's protected by its sheer geography, unlike the former un-nazified nations of Europe at that time who were startlingly close to the Axis. He could've in turn looked to his left and attacked Britain that way, it was a major blunder for them.

Edit: This is Horten 9
Image (http://img340.imageshack.us/i/ho9v113.jpg/)

And years later, after reverse engineering, Americans copied it and...

Image (http://img146.imageshack.us/i/14530522.jpg/)

Ah. Nazi Wunderwaffe. How they intrigue me with all their Metal Slug-ish coolness. Did I mention they planned Video game bosses?

http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/penisex/tank1.jpg

Here be Landkreuzer P 1500.

[trooneh]

Blitzkrieg. Hitler's plans were always followed, as for their confusing chain of command. They couldn't have war machines if they weren't given command over them by Hitler in the first place.

They were, and that's a key reason they lost the war, in the end.



It was evident that they were going to lose against Russia, even though they were militarily weak at that time. It's protected by its sheer geography, unlike the former un-nazified nations of Europe at that time who were startlingly close to the Axis. He could've in turn looked to his left and attacked Britain that way, it was a major blunder for them.

The Germans would most likely not have been able to defeat Britain for a number of reasons:

1) The Royal Navy was stronger than the Kriegsmarine and could inflict huge losses on the invading forces.
2) The RAF still controlled the skies over Great Britain.
3) The German "landing ships" were basically barges that would move extremely slowly and be sitting ducks, not to mention the extreme discomfort for the men in the ships.
4) There were plans to do such things as dump oil in the water on the invasion path and igniting it, thus creating more casualties or forcing the invasion to change plans.
5) There were plans to continue guerrilla warfare if the Army were to be defeated.
6) The amount of fortifications and defenses that were built around the British Isles are extensive and many can still be seen today, such as:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Image-Pillbox_at_Curzon_Bridges_%28North%29.JPG

(A pillbox)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/Demolition_chambers%2C_Mausel_Lock.JPG

(Demolition chambers with which to destroy bridges.)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Railway_block_on_Taunton_Stop_Line.JPG

Removable road/railway blocks in order to stop troop and tank movements.


Hitler basically was forced to sit still while Britain and the Soviets each built up, or attack somewhere. I think he believed that he would have more success on the Eastern Front.

(Edit: For Nazi weapons that are "super" there's also "Dora" xD:http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_oIAhQMTG-dU/SztSORiBY6I/AAAAAAAACIc/T3rYsXcxqVk/s400/incredible-images-pictures-photos-ww2-second-world-war-third-reich-nazi-germany-color-rare-001.jpg)

[The Dark Lord]

He saved Germany from itself? Yeah. Maybe the short term, he allowed the economy to revive. The long term effects were fucking horrible. Two countries occupied it's capital city for 40 years. He didn't save the country, he destroyed his country. On top of that, since World War II, they still owe some amounts of debt from the two wars that they started.

I agree with you that his propaganda was astounding, though. Goebbels and Hitler were great masters of persuasion..

There is a difference between foreign and economic policy. Although Hitler's social policies created a dictatorship and killed millions of innocent minorities, his economic policies were successful and his foreign policy was common sense: take what you can and give nothing back. World War 2 wasn't Hitler's fault, it was the fault of weak politicians unable to stand up to him.





No. There is no physically possible way that they would've stopped Stalin. Stalin already had troops ready for war in 1939. He wanted to join the Axis, and Hitler rejected the revised draft that Stalin had sent him. With the help of Stalin, nothing would've stopped the Axis. The reason the armistice was created between the two nations was because Hitler was frightened by the power that Stalin had.

No. Had they invaded earlier, they may have pushed further into the USSR, but it doesn't matter. They would've eventually been forced to fight in the winter, and it's fucking Russia. Fucking Russia. Let me show you something.

Image (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Ww2_allied_axis_1941_mar.png/800px-Ww2_allied_axis_1941_mar.png)

The red is the USSR, obviously. The black is the Nazi regime. This is 1941.

Image (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/Ww2_allied_axis_1942_nov.png/800px-Ww2_allied_axis_1942_nov.png)

That is how much the Nazi's had taken at the peak of their occupation of USSR. Compare the maps. Not only did he come unprepared, but it would've taken an extensive amount of troops for Hitler to push all of the way through the USSR. It just wasn't plausible. You know how I mentioned the armistice earlier? Yeah. Another reason for that was because the Nazi's were ill prepared to invade then. They were still ill prepared to invade the USSR at the time they did. Had they delayed it any longer, Stalin would've been even more ready and would've pushed the Nazi's back at their first attempt. Had they attacked even sooner they still wouldn't have been ready. They may have pushed further into the country, but to no avail..

The Nazis would of conquered Russia with proper planning, the army was too fast and ended up isolated, however, I agree that Hitler made a deal with Stalin in an attempt to neutralise him.


No. He didn't rebuild a country from death. He just revived it, fed it some dinner, then proceeded to dismember all of it's limbs, and then wring its neck. Basically Germany was left a torso without limbs. It couldn't do anything after.

Kudos to him for jump starting the economy a little. Maybe he saved a few people..

Put it this way, If David Cameron saves the economy and brings Britain back from the brink, he will be considered a great leader and a hero, surely the same principle applies to Hitler?

Sure. Lets massacre 6 million Jews, but hey, we get Volkswagen.

I think Cengiz was only giving an example of what Hitler did for domestic Germany, German cars are sold all over the world, this is as a result of Hitler's economic policies.

[trooneh]

I think Cengiz was only giving an example of what Hitler did for domestic Germany, German cars are sold all over the world, this is as a result of Hitler's economic policies.

The best example that I can think of in terms of good things Hitler did would be the autobahn system. It's the beginning of the world's modern highway systems.

[Rutherford The Brave]

I've always said that The Japanese screwed over the germans. I say this because if they hadn't attacked pearl harbor, Germany probably wouldn't have declared war on America. Knowing America at the time, they probably wouldnt have joined the war.

[trooneh]

I've always said that The Japanese screwed over the germans. I say this because if they hadn't attacked pearl harbor, Germany probably wouldn't have declared war on America. Knowing America at the time, they probably wouldnt have joined the war.


I'm not so sure. The United States had already declared the western half of the Atlantic to be under their protection and had given the order to shoot on sight. Roosevelt strongly wanted to join the war, and public opinion was starting to move more towards intervention. There had already been Lend-Lease (40 obsolete American destroyers in return for 99 year leases on a number of bases throughout the world) as well as a large amount of other armaments provided to the British, and from June 1941 on, to the Soviets. There were no armaments supplied to Nazi Germany, however. I do think war would have eventually come. Also, the pact that Germany had with Japan was defensive, not offensive. There was no requirement in the pact to declare war with the United States, and some Nazi leaders after the war said it was one of the two big mistakes Hitler made, declaring war on the United States, the other being the invasion of the Soviet Union. It is possible, had Germany not declared war, that the "Europe First" strategy would not have been employed, and the Americans would have focused on Japan before turning their attention back to Europe.

Of course, there are also those conspiracy theories that the United States provoked Japan in order to get into the war, though I personally don't buy into them.

[Azunite]

I've always said that The Japanese screwed over the germans. I say this because if they hadn't attacked pearl harbor, Germany probably wouldn't have declared war on America. Knowing America at the time, they probably wouldnt have joined the war.

So true.

But because of the American ambargo, Japan couldn't find sufficent oil so....

[Perseus]

So true.

But because of the American ambargo, Japan couldn't find sufficent oil so....

That is not the entire reason. Japan wanted full control of the Pacific, and to do that, they would need to destroy the American fleet in the Pacific. If their plane would have worked, then they would have naval and air bases insanely close to Pearl Harbor after a year and a half or so, and then they would have gone onto attack Pearl Harbor again since they would know that the Americans would not had a fleet. Their plane failed, obviously, since they did not get the queen of naval warfare, the aircraft carrier.

[trooneh]

That is not the entire reason. Japan wanted full control of the Pacific, and to do that, they would need to destroy the American fleet in the Pacific. If their plane would have worked, then they would have naval and air bases insanely close to Pearl Harbor after a year and a half or so, and then they would have gone onto attack Pearl Harbor again since they would know that the Americans would not had a fleet. Their plane failed, obviously, since they did not get the queen of naval warfare, the aircraft carrier.

I'm going off memory here so I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the stated goal of the Japanese was hegemony of East Asia and the western Pacific. Their goal was to strike such a blow to the Pacific Fleet that the United States would not be able to react to the Japanese takeover of Southeast Asia. A full-blown war with the United States was never the goal of Japan, since they knew full well the industrial potential that the United States had. They merely hoped to stall the United States long enough to achieve their goals and maybe force a favorable peace treaty. Japan never harbored any illusions of even taking Hawaii, since they knew the risks of a complete war against a country that had a large population, large stocks of natural resources, and enough factories to use those resources.

Admiral Yamamoto himself, the one who came up with the carrier attack at Pearl Harbor, didn't believe Japan would win a long war, and was also furious that the declaration of war did not reach the United States government until after the attack, making it an unprovoked sneak attack that would give the Americans reason to commit to a full-on war.

[Perseus]

I'm going off memory here so I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the stated goal of the Japanese was hegemony of East Asia and the western Pacific. Their goal was to strike such a blow to the Pacific Fleet that the United States would not be able to react to the Japanese takeover of Southeast Asia. A full-blown war with the United States was never the goal of Japan, since they knew full well the industrial potential that the United States had. They merely hoped to stall the United States long enough to achieve their goals and maybe force a favorable peace treaty. Japan never harbored any illusions of even taking Hawaii, since they knew the risks of a complete war against a country that had a large population, large stocks of natural resources, and enough factories to use those resources.


Whoopsies. :P I was going off of memory, also. I could have gone and looked at the thing I did for it. I shall do that now.

EDIT: Admiral Isoroku Yamamot insisted on a 2nd surprise attack, this time against the U.S. fleet at Pearl Harbor. He reasoned that if he could destroy the fleet, Japan would have two years control of the Pacific, during which time she could build an impenetrable defensive on various island groups. The U.S., Yanomoto felt, would be unwilling to pay the cost of breaking through the ring and might negotiate peace that would leave Japan in a possession of her conquests.
I was semi-right. :P I didn't remember fully. My mistake.