North Korea

[Iceman]

Tensions have been rising between North and South Korea, in the past weeks. Do you think the U.S. should just go in and clear out the North or that the North has some secret's that have never been confirmed(nukes)?

[Lasky]

I was told if North Korea and South Korea start a war, the U.S. will intervene, and that means we'll have a draft. Fun stuff.

[Iceman]

Of course they would intervene but would it be better not to?

[Korashk]

I was told if North Korea and South Korea start a war, the U.S. will intervene
Probably

and that means we'll have a draft. Fun stuff.
Probably not
~~~

Anyways, no. The US government should stop being an aggressor entirely.

[Black Eight]

We shouldn't intervene because it will be costly and we don't need to add to the huge debt our government has. Also, I don't think there will be a war. South Korea has been attacked by North Korea before and a war didn't start.

[Iceman]

We shouldn't intervene because it will be costly and we don't need to add to the huge debt our government has. Also, I don't think there will be a war. South Korea has been attacked by North Korea before and a war didn't start.

Yes, the Korean War did.

Korashk: So you think hegemony is bad?

[Black Eight]

I meant in between the Korean War and now.

[Iceman]

I meant in between the Korean War and now.

Any examples?

[Lasky]

Probably


Probably not
~~~

Anyways, no. The US government should stop being an aggressor entirely.

Thats what I thought but my History teacher thinks otherwise.

It's good to keep up foreign relations though, and I agree we already have too much on out plate to handle right now anyway, but eh, who knows. We'll have to see what happens.

[Korashk]

Korashk: So you think hegemony is bad?
Yes, it's quite literally one of the worst things ever.

EDIT: When it's non-consensual/aggressive.

[Iceman]

Alright, so what do you think would happen if we withdrew troops from everywhere?

[Black Eight]

February 1974: Two South Korean fishing vessels are sunk and 30 crew detained by the North.

May 1995: North Korean forces fire on a South Korean fishing boat, killing three.

April 1997: Five North Korean soldiers cross the Demilitarized Zone in Cheolwon, Gangwon-do, and fire on South Korean positions

Just a few.

[Korashk]

Alright, so what do you think would happen if we withdrew troops from everywhere?
Things would be worse-off/chaotic initially and eventually become better/stable.

[Iceman]

Things would be worse-off/chaotic initially and eventually become better/stable.

Im about to go to bed but I am very interested to hear you point of view on this.

[Tiberius]

I hope you guys do realize that we have a treaty with them stating that we HAVE to protect them. I mean, we can't really back out of that one unless we want to have some serious ramifications.

[Korashk]

Im about to go to bed but I am very interested to hear you point of view on this.
I'm not very good at simply outlining my positions on issues I haven't really given much thought such as hegemony and withdrawal of troops. Send me a PM with questions about aspects of my stance and I'll do my best to explain.

[Iceman]

I hope you guys do realize that we have a treaty with them stating that we HAVE to protect them. I mean, we can't really back out of that one unless we want to have some serious ramifications.

Actual didn't realize that the treaty stated that. Is that the actual wording though?

[Korashk]

I hope you guys do realize that we have a treaty with them stating that we HAVE to protect them. I mean, we can't really back out of that one unless we want to have some serious ramifications.
I stand by my stance of ideological non-aggression, even though I know it's not happening. According to me, and others like me, governments should not enter into military alliances with other nations that would require non-retaliatory force.

[Clawhammer]

Honestly, I think it shouldn't be our business, and we should avoid getting involved. We have other problems to worry about. I haven't seen any recent articles on it, I'll have to look into it again.

[Lasky]

Honestly, I think it shouldn't be our business, and we should avoid getting involved. We have other problems to worry about. I haven't seen any recent articles on it, I'll have to look into it again.

Well like Tiberius said, we have a treaty to protect them

[Amnesiac]

I hope you guys do realize that we have a treaty with them stating that we HAVE to protect them. I mean, we can't really back out of that one unless we want to have some serious ramifications.

Indeed, it's not like the U.S. has a choice on this matter. We've pledged to protect South Korea. This is exactly what George Washington warned us about — forming long-term alliances, or alliances at all. It gets us caught up in the affairs of other nations, acting as the world's police. This isn't healthy, isolationism is better.

[Continuum]

Indeed, it's not like the U.S. has a choice on this matter. We've pledged to protect South Korea. This is exactly what George Washington warned us about — forming long-term alliances, or alliances at all. It gets us caught up in the affairs of other nations, acting as the world's police. This isn't healthy, isolationism is better.

Well, as the world's (only) superpower as of the moment, I say they are doomed to be involved in any of the world's affairs. Too much Isolation is bad for any country too.

[CaptainObvious]

Indeed, it's not like the U.S. has a choice on this matter.

Indeed, if America were to break an international obligation it would implode like a black hole.

;)

Really, the reason that America will absolutely support South Korea is its central importance as a strong American ally in China's backyard.

[Sith Lord 13]

Really, the reason that America will absolutely support South Korea is its central importance as a strong American ally in China's backyard.

This. We need an ally in that area.

I see nothing wrong with pledging to protect weaker countries when it is going to serve US interests to protect it.

[Korashk]

This. We need an ally in that area.

I see nothing wrong with pledging to protect weaker countries when it is going to serve US interests to protect it.
America has the mightiest military force in the world. We don't need any allies anywhere.

[Azunite]

That's why I never make long-term alliances in Total War games

[The Dark Lord]

America has the mightiest military force in the world. We don't need any allies anywhere.

No, America couldn't fight in Afganistan and Korea at the same time, particularly if Russia or China got involved

We need an ally in that area.

10 Downing Street should be expecting a call any day now

[scuba steve]

10 Downing Street should be expecting a call any day now

haaa :P

But seriously lads, this matter is not about politics, it's about the economy. South Korea is a very strong ally to the US because of all it's exports not to mention it's strong standing in APEC (Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation) America is working with it's own interests in mind but in this scenario they are picking the moraly justifiable option

[Huskyboy132]

Haha I got this as my MUN resolution topic :D
The United States is so far in debt that involving themselves in the predicted conflict between the PRK and the DPRK. I think that the United States should only become involved in the clash, once it directly involves them. Russia most probably will not stand behind North Korea as it then means involving the European Union, which will then force the US to fight, where in conclusion we see that Russia would lose their source of income and become economically and morally instable. Therefore the war would mean North Korea against the whole world. The scary aspect though is how advanced north Korea is though with their nuclear weaponry. While Russia and the United States agreed to build off their atomic weaponry, North Korea continued their production without anyone knowing. I'm sure most people could now agree with me that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is probably the worlds largest owner of the destructive ammunition. I dont know, it's just my opinion.

[The Dark Lord]

Russia most probably will not stand behind North Korea as it then means involving the European Union, which will then force the US to fight, where in conclusion we see that Russia would lose their source of income and become economically and morally instable.

Russia aren't in the EU. Also you stated that America is in too much debt for the war, surely the same can be applied for the EU, where Ireland, Greece, Portugal and Spain all require an EU bailout, meaning the EU couldn't afford a war. America's only ally would be, as always, Britain- another country lacking both the money and the armed forces to fight a war, leaving America isolated depending on China's position. Finally, you think a 2nd rate political union with no recognisable figure head is in the position to force the most powerful country in the world into war?

[scuba steve]

Why would Russia aid the only real organised enemy left in the world, believe it or not they are allied with "the west" also they've only recently been able to build stable reactors capable of energy production powers and we have no records from latest visits that they have the capabilities of weaponising the energy having no Plutniom etc. although I suspect that they must be getting help from somewhere, my mind turns to China.

[Amnesiac]

Well, as the world's (only) superpower as of the moment, I say they are doomed to be involved in any of the world's affairs. Too much Isolation is bad for any country too.

True, but this "world police" situation the US has gotten itself into is stretching us thin. We've gotten too tangled in the affairs of other regions. Now, faced with our own crushing debt, another war will cripple us.

Indeed, if America were to break an international obligation it would implode like a black hole.

Yep, and that's a bad thing.

[Iceman]

How many nations like North America today?

[scuba steve]

How many nations like North America today?

The nation of North America...? Go back to school.

[Iceman]

The nation of North America...? Go back to school.

I ment North Korea

[scuba steve]

I ment North Korea

None.

[Iceman]

Exactly! Why is it still there?

[The Dark Lord]

Exactly! Why is it still there?

cos nobody can be arsed dealing with them and they have nuclear weapons

[Amnesiac]

Exactly! Why is it still there?

Because they haven't done anything dramatic enough to make the rest of the world care that much at the moment. If we weren't screwing around in the Middle East, I'm sure the West would already be at war with North Korea.

[scuba steve]

cos nobody can be arsed dealing with them and they have nuclear weapons

Technically, they don't. But i'm sure they can hide alot more than we think.

[Iceman]

Technically, they don't. But i'm sure they can hide alot more than we think.

Yes, we don't "know" they have nukes we guess they do

[WaahZombie]

south korea is our ally, and north korea hates us. not getting involved wouldnt be smart because north korea has missles that can reach the west coast. therefore, they most likely would attack us anyways. tis sad to say.
hopefully nothing will come of it though, it could be disatrous.

[Sage]

Recent Wikileaks cables reveal that China is likely to abandon North Korea as an ally. What a shitty day to be North Korean.

[Lasky]

south korea is our ally, and north korea hates us. not getting involved wouldnt be smart because north korea has missles that can reach the west coast. therefore, they most likely would attack us anyways. tis sad to say.
hopefully nothing will come of it though, it could be disatrous.

Yeah but we DO have defenses that can prevent a missile attack. We have laser guided anti-missile... missiles lol

Either way, if we get involved or not, It's sort of a lose lose...

[Perseus]

north korea has missles that can reach the west coast. therefore, they most likely would attack us anyways. tis sad to say.
hopefully nothing will come of it though, it could be disatrous.

That is incorrect. Their missiles cannot reach far.

[Iceman]

Even if they could we have missiles to shoot them down. And it is unlikely if they have weapons that it is few because the U.S. scopes out North Korea through satellite and would see any facility

[Korashk]

That is incorrect. Their missiles cannot reach far.
Even if they could...so what? We have anti-missile defenses.

[Perseus]

Even if they could...so what? We have anti-missile defenses.

I was just sayin'. I know this.

[Tiberius]

North Korea has a crazy-ass dictator who has a small penis problem; they are totally impoverished, the people are starving and they have a limited means of full-scale war for any real amount of time. Besides, China isn't likely to back them because they would literally have the world fighting them, not to mention the fact that the U.S would cut off all trade with them.

In short, North Korea is fucked. Plain and simple.

[Iceman]

:DNorth Korea has a crazy-ass dictator who has a small penis problem; they are totally impoverished, the people are starving and they have a limited means of full-scale war for any real amount of time. Besides, China isn't likely to back them because they would literally have the world fighting them, not to mention the fact that the U.S would cut off all trade with them.

In short, North Korea is fucked. Plain and simple.

I like the way you put that :D

[scuba steve]

not to mention the fact that the U.S would cut off all trade with them.

There has been a US backed embargo on North Korea for around 40-50 years now.

[Lasky]

North Korea has a crazy-ass dictator who has a small penis problem; they are totally impoverished, the people are starving and they have a limited means of full-scale war for any real amount of time. Besides, China isn't likely to back them because they would literally have the world fighting them, not to mention the fact that the U.S would cut off all trade with them.

In short, North Korea is fucked. Plain and simple.

Best post ever!

[Tiberius]

There has been a US backed embargo on North Korea for around 40-50 years now.

I was referring to China in that sentence.
Besides, China isn't likely to back them because they would literally have the world fighting them, not to mention the fact that the U.S would cut off all trade with them.

[dmeek7]

I think we should stay out of other countries business and let them handle it for once and see what happens. Only if/when it turns into some global threatening situation, then we can intervene. But I think we should sit this one out and watch it go down and see what happens.

[scuba steve]

I was referring to China in that sentence.

Just the way the post was worded, my mistake.

[trooneh]

I think we should stay out of other countries business and let them handle it for once and see what happens. Only if/when it turns into some global threatening situation, then we can intervene. But I think we should sit this one out and watch it go down and see what happens.

How isn't a possible war between the two Koreas globally threatening? For one, it could possibly involve any number of surrounding countries, especially China as well as Japan. Also, the city of Seoul is extremely important in that it's a financial hub of East Asia. It's within shelling distance of North Korea, and you can bet that'd be one of the places they target first. There's also the fact that North Korea HAS tested nuclear devices in the past and very well may have more. The risk of any form of nuclear warfare anywhere in the world is something that you don't want to sit out on.

Also, as a side note, the best Starcraft 2 players in the world are South Korean. Can't have any of them dying in a war can we? :P

[Amnesiac]

How isn't a possible war between the two Koreas globally threatening? For one, it could possibly involve any number of surrounding countries, especially China as well as Japan. Also, the city of Seoul is extremely important in that it's a financial hub of East Asia. It's within shelling distance of North Korea, and you can bet that'd be one of the places they target first. There's also the fact that North Korea HAS tested nuclear devices in the past and very well may have more. The risk of any form of nuclear warfare anywhere in the world is something that you don't want to sit out on.

While I will agree with you that Seoul is a world-class city that needs to be protected, I don't think that surrounding countries would be keen to join in on the conflict. China relies on Western trade; any interruption to that would be devastating to their economy.

As for the nukes, I seriously doubt North Korea has an arsenal that actually presents a large threat to the rest of the world. Yes, North Korea's nukes are an important issue, but the threat isn't massive like that from the USSR during the Cold War.

[Errr]

We are America, of COURSE we will get into. Even though we should stay OUT of it.

[trooneh]

While I will agree with you that Seoul is a world-class city that needs to be protected, I don't think that surrounding countries would be keen to join in on the conflict. China relies on Western trade; any interruption to that would be devastating to their economy.

As for the nukes, I seriously doubt North Korea has an arsenal that actually presents a large threat to the rest of the world. Yes, North Korea's nukes are an important issue, but the threat isn't massive like that from the USSR during the Cold War.

Do you think China would risk North Korea collapsing completely, though? Also, with the risk of North Korean missiles hitting Japan, I do believe Japan would act, too.

[scuba steve]

Do you think China would risk North Korea collapsing completely, though? Also, with the risk of North Korean missiles hitting Japan, I do believe Japan would act, too.

I don't see why not, the country is of no benefit to China and i've heard that the Chinese where thinking of abandoning them from Wikileak reports.

NK still can't reach Japan with missiles.

[trooneh]

I don't see why not, the country is of no benefit to China and i've heard that the Chinese where thinking of abandoning them from Wikileak reports.

NK still can't reach Japan with missiles.

NK has a population of 24 million. How many of those do you suspect would flee to the Chinese border in the event of a complete collapse of the government in Pyongyang? I'm guessing at least 1/3 of them, if not more.

Also, as for the second part, the Rodong/Nodong-1 missile has a range of 1,400 kilometers, enough to reach Japan. Tokyo is well within range of these missiles, so Japan is under threat from NK.

[Continuum]

NK has a population of 24 million. How many of those do you suspect would flee to the Chinese border in the event of a complete collapse of the government in Pyongyang? I'm guessing at least 1/3 of them, if not more.


I wouldn't think so, if not for their highly advanced propaganda and indoctrination to Juche. They might be commanded to commit suicide upon notice.

[trooneh]

I don't think they're so brainwashed to ALL kill themselves...

[Amnesiac]

I don't think they're so brainwashed to ALL kill themselves...

Juche ideology is like a religion. Think of it this way: if Muslim extremists can easily be convinced to kill themselves for their God, why can't North Koreans simply be told to kill themselves for their "Great Leader"?

[Theatheist of doom]

No more military budget, going into this war will just get us a larger military budget and a few enemies. Our military budget is way to large.

[CaptainObvious]

Juche ideology is like a religion. Think of it this way: if Muslim extremists can easily be convinced to kill themselves for their God, why can't North Koreans simply be told to kill themselves for their "Great Leader"?

This is kind of a poor argument. Muslim extremists can be convinced to use suicide as a weapon; that implies absolutely nothing about whether the same would be true to any non-negligible extent of the populace of North Korea.

[Shenron]

I know what will happen, but that doesn't mean I agree with it. Really, I am impartial. There are benefits and drawbacks to both sides.

Right now, we are in so much debt, it will take years to dig our way out of it. If this war happens, it will only put us farther in debt. And, it could be that NK has "teamed" with another country to take the US out. See, if NK attacks SK then the US will come to their aide. We are already fighting in Iraq, so we would then be fighting at least two fronts. What is to stop Russia, or China for attacking our homeland, thus causing us to fight on at least 3 fronts. I mean, we have been a superpower since WWII. It would not surprise me in the least if something like I mentioned before happens. Now, I do not think that it is going to happen, just saying that it wouldn't surprise me.

[Iceman]

I know what will happen, but that doesn't mean I agree with it. Really, I am impartial. There are benefits and drawbacks to both sides.

Right now, we are in so much debt, it will take years to dig our way out of it. If this war happens, it will only put us farther in debt. And, it could be that NK has "teamed" with another country to take the US out. See, if NK attacks SK then the US will come to their aide. We are already fighting in Iraq, so we would then be fighting at least two fronts. What is to stop Russia, or China for attacking our homeland, thus causing us to fight on at least 3 fronts. I mean, we have been a superpower since WWII. It would not surprise me in the least if something like I mentioned before happens. Now, I do not think that it is going to happen, just saying that it wouldn't surprise me.

One we are not technically fighting in Iraq. Second Russia would have to ship troops over the ocean. It takes more than one day and with the amount of missiles it wouldn't be too hard to take them out. That is saying they don't turn nuclear but that would be ignorant.

[Shenron]

One we are not technically fighting in Iraq. Second Russia would have to ship troops over the ocean. It takes more than one day and with the amount of missiles it wouldn't be too hard to take them out. That is saying they don't turn nuclear but that would be ignorant.

True, we are not fighting, only occupying Iraq, but even still, I doubt we would pull out of Iraq...As far as turning nuclear goes, I am sure it would come to that eventually, but we can detect the nukes before they hit and we would just fire ours back. We have been at a nuclear standoff since before the Cold War. The reason nobody uses them is because they know that the other country will retaliate by using their nukes. While I do understand that Russia would have to ship their troops over seas, I do not think that we would just fire a missile and hit them. That would cause all kinds of turmoil. Until they are in US waters, we have no right to do that anyway. By that time, it would almost be too late. And, who is to say that they dont just take a carrier over and launch a shit ton of air raids? I mean, there is the possibility. I have always said that I would see WWIII in my lifetime, and I do believe that, I do not however, think that it will be in the next decade.

[Iceman]

Russia doesn't have that many aircraft carriers.

[Azunite]

True, we are not fighting, only occupying Iraq, but even still, I doubt we would pull out of Iraq....

America conquered Iraq, and despite what Obama says, they won't pull off.

[phish]

Unfortunately I think it may become necessary. I believe we have a world war brewing between the US,EU,South Korea and Iran, North Korea, Saudis.

[Azunite]

Unfortunately I think it may become necessary. I believe we have a world war brewing between the US,EU,South Korea and Iran, North Korea, Saudis.

Saudis? What do they have?

[scuba steve]

Saudis? What do they have?

Fat wallets for for selling oil rather than retaliating to the west.

And whoevers chaos theory was going on in the background, Russia is an ally and is overall in no state to wage war. If I was even to ponder with the idea they would not pass Europe and even if they tried to come through the Beiring straight the US would just Drone the fuck out of their asses having the biggest military budget which can't be comparable to any nation comes in handy. China would not fight us either as the west USA in particular are their main customers. It's economics, kid not territory.

[Shenron]

Fat wallets for for selling oil rather than retaliating to the west.

And whoevers chaos theory was going on in the background, Russia is an ally and is overall in no state to wage war. If I was even to ponder with the idea they would not pass Europe and even if they tried to come through the Beiring straight the US would just Drone the fuck out of their asses having the biggest military budget which can't be comparable to any nation comes in handy. China would not fight us either as the west USA in particular are their main customers. It's economics, kid not territory.

I said it was possible...I never said it was going to happen, in fact, I said I didn't think it would happen.

I know we have gone from physical war to economic war. We have been waging an economic war with China for a long time. But, surely one day we will return to the ways of physical war on a full scale. What happened in Iraq, that wasnt a war, that was a clean up, no contest.

[scuba steve]

I said it was possible...I never said it was going to happen, in fact, I said I didn't think it would happen.

I know we have gone from physical war to economic war. We have been waging an economic war with China for a long time. But, surely one day we will return to the ways of physical war on a full scale. What happened in Iraq, that wasnt a war, that was a clean up, no contest.

It never was a war, if there aren't proper organised soldiers fighting on front lines and OPFOR consists of Guerilla forces then it's a job a nation stabilisation.

But I don't see this happening unless the world turns to a bleak dystopia type world based on the likes of Metal Gear Solid 4 in which the world economy is balanced upon private millitary's recieving contracts to retrieve oil etc. as governments can no longer sustain their own national forces.