Are school punishments more harmful than good?

[Zephyr]

What I'm talking about here are the following:

Detention
In-School Suspension
Out of School Suspension
Expulsion

Do any of them serve a good purpose, or are they more harmful to the student?
If you have a different opinion on each, then please explain.

Note: If you're only going to remark along the lines of 'detention is stupid', then please don't post as it isn't contributing.

[dead]

Well it mainly depends on the student in my eyes, but for the most part I don't see it stopping or even helping anything.

[Amnesiac]

Well it mainly depends on the student in my eyes, but for the most part I don't see it stopping or even helping anything.

In most cases, it really doesn't. School punishments also tend to be unfair (see this essay (http://freedomism.weebly.com/uploads/4/3/0/5/4305800/freedomism_10-10.pdf)) and don't come with the appropriate counseling. Constantly throwing kids in detention for mundane and often victim-less offenses is pointless and counter-productive.

[The Joker]

Out of school suspensions are pointless, because usually the kid takes it as a free vacation.

[Bath]

There has to be some sort of punishment, and I think these are definitely fine. I mean, some students may be paranoid or suffer from low self-esteem, but there are always going to be a few bugs in the system. How else are you enforce the rules? Detention, suspension, etc., are okay punishments if they're given out for appropriate reasons.

[RAWWR]

I think they can have positive and negative effects, I can see where they would be needed and could do good, but then in my experience, they can be given out unfairly, e.g. my sister got given detention the other day for 'skiving' when she had a letter from the hospital confirming the date and time of her appointment with the neuro-phycicsist (no idea how you spell that)

[Jess]

It depends on what the student does. in my school I think if you cheat or whatever you not only get a 0 but a detention...and if you text in class you get one too...

If you did something really bad I don't see what's wrong with suspending, expelling etc the student(s).

[Continuum]

Counseling is good. Off-scale punishments, bad. It can cause emotional humiliation and probably it can cause more harm than good. I don't view it as justified if you get suspended on repeated attempts of debauchery and unlawful jests.

[Harley Quinn]

What I'm talking about here are the following:

Detention
In-School Suspension
Out of School Suspension
Expulsion

Do any of them serve a good purpose, or are they more harmful to the student?
If you have a different opinion on each, then please explain.

Note: If you're only going to remark along the lines of 'detention is stupid', then please don't post as it isn't contributing.

I've been suspended twice out of school, and like countless times internally suspended. Detentions never work on me, so I'd say they don't really make much of a different, internal suspensions are better then external that's for sure, external you just have to stay away from the school for a set amount of time. I didn't really learn from it as I'm totally defiant in school. I've been threatened with an explulsion, and I nearly was when i was suspended for the second time, and that's something that really isn't any thing good. You won't get much of an education and most schools don't take on any one with that sorta record.

[Perseus]

Out of school suspensions are pointless, because usually the kid takes it as a free vacation.

In fact, it does harm since you get a bunch of zeros. How does that help you at all? Shouldn't you be helped instead of punished. By that I mean if someone is bullying someone, the bully should be helped, not just punished. What does getting the student more zeros do? It makes him madder. No one wants to fail a class. ISS makes sense, as with detention, but OSS just doesn't make sense since it doesn't help the kid at all.

[Fact]

In fact, it does harm since you get a bunch of zeros. How does that help you at all? Shouldn't you be helped instead of punished. By that I mean if someone is bullying someone, the bully should be helped, not just punished. What does getting the student more zeros do? It makes him madder. No one wants to fail a class. ISS makes sense, as with detention, but OSS just doesn't make sense since it doesn't help the kid at all.

↑ what about those who don't want to be helped?

I think that if there is a fair deal of consistency with punishments such as detention etc. then it's a good idea - it teaches discipline. However, I think that they should be given more for issues directly related to school work e.g. not handing in homework. If it's a student-student or teacher-student issue, or behavioural in general, I believe there are better ways of dealing with it than just taking away breaks, lunches or after school time, there should be more personal involvement if it's personal.

[Perseus]

↑ what about those who don't want to be helped?

I think that if there is a fair deal of consistency with punishments such as detention etc. then it's a good idea - it teaches discipline. However, I think that they should be given more for issues directly related to school work e.g. not handing in homework. If it's a student-student or teacher-student issue, or behavioural in general, I believe there are better ways of dealing with it than just taking away breaks, lunches or after school time, there should be more personal involvement if it's personal.

Giving them OSS just pleases them, probably. They don't have to go to school when they're bad. If you think about it, it encourages them to be jackasses. Give them a lot of ISS.

[Fact]

Giving them OSS just pleases them, probably. They don't have to go to school when they're bad. If you think about it, it encourages them to be jackasses. Give them a lot of ISS.

I mainly agree with this.

Also, you have the idiots who play the point scoring game with their peers - "who can get ISS/OSS first this time" kind of mentality.

[Korashk]

Consider this: Stuff like detention and suspention isn't about helpinng the student that is in detention or suspended. It's about helping all the other students in the class.

[Fact]

Consider this: Stuff like detention and suspention isn't about helpinng the student that is in detention or suspended. It's about helping all the other students in the class.

What about in schools where teachers victimise students or wrongly accuse them and hand out detentions without good cause? Does that not undermine any positive principle to punishment within school?

Also, what about students who are repeatedly sent into detention but no further action is taken. Is that not a waste of everyones time?

[Korashk]

What about in schools were teachers victimise students or wrongly accuse them and hand out detentions without good cause? Does that not undermine any positive principle to punishment within school?
Prove that this is actually a significant problem and I'll discuss it.

Also, what about students who are repeatedly sent into detention but no further action is taken. Is that not a waste of everyones time?
No, it gets them out of class so that the rest of the students can effectively learn.

[Fact]

Prove that this is actually a significant problem and I'll discuss it.

Define 'significant'.
IMO, if a student's education is compromised by the actions of a prejudice teacher, then it's a significant problem. It pushes that student down without due cause.

No, it gets them out of class so that the rest of the students can effectively learn.

Yeah, isn't that a waste of time for everyone if the teacher has to waste 10 minutes of valuable teaching time sorting out unruly students who have no aptitude for learning every day?

[Korashk]

Define 'significant'.
Significant - Of considerable amount, or does it happen so much that it needs to be addressed outside of a case-by-case basis.

Yeah, isn't that a waste of time for everyone if the teacher has to waste 10 minutes of valuable teaching time sorting out unruly students who have no aptitude for learning every day?
In a 50 minute period I'd rather have 40 minutes of quality instruction than 50 minutes of interrupted and distracting class-time while being instructed.

[Fact]

In a 50 minute period I'd rather have 40 minutes of quality instruction than 50 minutes of interrupted and distracting class-time while being instructed.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that if you waste 10 minutes each lesson, and you have one lesson per week and you spend roughly 36-38 weeks at school, then that's 360-380 minutes of lesson time wasted, which is the equivalent to missing 7 lessons.

[ShatteredWings]

OSS is the stupidest thing ever. You're being told "don't come to school". That's a vacation, not a punishment.

ISS is probably the most effective. You're being made to show up, but still can't do anything.

My school does saturday detention, which IMO is a good idea. Kills your social life, reason to try not to get them.

[Fact]

My school does saturday detention, which IMO is a good idea. Kills your social life, reason to try not to get them.

I think that's quite a good idea.

Although this probably would be pointless in schools that work on a Saturday anyway :P so they'd have to have a back up plan...

[Korashk]

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that if you waste 10 minutes each lesson, and you have one lesson per week and you spend roughly 36-38 weeks at school, then that's 360-380 minutes of lesson time wasted, which is the equivalent to missing 7 lessons.
My point still stands, and you're making the faulty assumption that it takes 10 minutes of downtime to send a kid out of class.

Anecdotally, it goes like this:

- Lesson begins
- Kid is disruption
- "Warning" continue lesson
- Kid is disruption
- "Warning" continue lesson
- Kid is disruption
- "Leave"
- Kid indignantly leaves
- Continue lesson

Even if it did, that's not equivalent of missing 7 lessons. It's equivalent to missing 7 class periods. The pace of a class can be accelerated appropriately with no lessons being missed at all.

[Peace God]

In fact, it does harm since you get a bunch of zeros.
It depends on the reason for you suspension. If it's a fight or something then they excuse the work or allow you to make it up or turn it in late. If it's for something like skipping class then they usually will give zeros for the work that you missed.

[Korashk]

It depends on the reason for you suspension. If it's a fight or something then they excuse the work or allow you to make it up or turn it in late.
They must be nice at your school. At my old highschool if you got suspended you got zeros on the work you missed. Period. Based on the individual teacher's policy you could have a parent come in and get the work for you to do and turn in before it was considered late, but a lot of them wouldn't even make that an option.

[Peace God]

They must be nice at your school. At my old highschool if you got suspended you got zeros on the work you missed. Period. Based on the individual teacher's policy you could have a parent come in and get the work for you to do and turn in before it was considered late, but a lot of them wouldn't even make that an option.
Really? I guess i was wrong in assuming that all schools had similar policies...I've been to 3 different high schools in three different states and if i remember correctly they all had pretty much the same thing.

I makes sense though, unlike skipping, if you get into a fight you're not choosing to be a bad student or miss work.

[Korashk]

I makes sense though, unlike skipping, if you get into a fight you're not choosing to be a bad student or miss work.
Yes you are...

[Perseus]

Yes you are...

Not if you are defending yourself.

[Peace God]

Yes you are...

Student in the academic sense not, "student" in the social sense. And like Perseus said, not if you're defending yourself (which was the case for me in a lot of the fights ive been in).

[Korashk]

Not if you are defending yourself.
Point, but then again, if you're defending yourself then you didn't choose to get into a fight. A fight was forced upon you and you should not receive punishment. Even though I know that both parties do, which is dumb.

[Peace God]

... if you're defending yourself then you didn't choose to get into a fight.
Technically no.
However, while I would rarely start physical fights, ive been known to make very insulting smart ass comments to whoever was harassing/annoying me. Which would then start a physical fight. I could have chosen not to insult them.

[Korashk]

I could have chosen not to insult them.
And they could have chosen not to physically attack you.

[Aless1225]

I think that teachers and the school staff should pick a punishment that best fits the student. There is kids out there that with a simple loud voice and with a " don't ever do it again" will change and there is others in which won't have any effect. I think that by suspending the student you just affect his learning so Maybe a more physical punishment that's emberresing might work for some but like I said it depends on the kid

[Sith Lord 13]

There needs to be some kind of punishment to keep order. Detention works well, as it can screw up when you get home. Saturday detention seems even better. OSS is idiotic, kids who are bothered by it aren't the ones who deserve it. ISS is a good punishment, should serve as some kind of deterrent. Expulsion is a necessary last resort.

When applied appropriately, it's not harmful, though stupid detentions (I was once given detention for going to the bathroom, with a teacher's permission, BY THE TEACHER WHO GAVE ME PERMISSION) and unnecessary escalations can be.


And they could have chosen not to physically attack you.

And he could have chosen not to strike back.

[Amnesiac]

When applied appropriately, it's not harmful, though stupid detentions (I was once given detention for going to the bathroom, with a teacher's permission, BY THE TEACHER WHO GAVE ME PERMISSION) and unnecessary escalations can be.

Agreed. There aren't studies or anything to back this up, but it's well known that there are teachers who waste their own class time assigning punishments for the most rudimentary offenses. Things like school dress codes, where a student might've worn a jacket that's the wrong color — who gives a fuck? Instructional time is more important than assigning detentions for every little thing. Teachers need to focus on issues that are actually disrupting instruction and other students, not technical things that can easily be overlooked.

[Sogeking]

Agreed. There aren't studies or anything to back this up, but it's well known that there are teachers who waste their own class time assigning punishments for the most rudimentary offenses. Things like school dress codes, where a student might've worn a jacket that's the wrong color — who gives a fuck? Instructional time is more important than assigning detentions for every little thing. Teachers need to focus on issues that are actually disrupting instruction and other students, not technical things that can easily be overlooked. For some teachers however if they don't issue a punishment they think it shows a sign of weakness and gives student an incentive to do more bad and disrupt more class time.

[Amnesiac]

For some teachers however if they don't issue a punishment they think it shows a sign of weakness and gives student an incentive to do more bad and disrupt more class time.

That's not a valid excuse. Giving out pointless punishments is an exploration of a system designed to prevent classroom disruption. It's wrong. I don't care about some teacher's sense of authority, if they really thing the punishment system is there for them to show off their "strength", they shouldn't be a teacher.

[Sogeking]

That's not a valid excuse. Giving out pointless punishments is an exploration of a system designed to prevent classroom disruption. It's wrong. I don't care about some teacher's sense of authority, if they really thing the punishment system is there for them to show off their "strength", they shouldn't be a teacher. exploration or exploitation? Some teachers just do their jobs for money and like to be an ass. Why they are still teaching when their are other jobs out there, I have no clue

[Iceman]

It depends most punsihments just prepare and teach you. Detention for things is an "attempt" to teach kids that they can't just do anything and get away with it. Most kids nowdays find it funny to get detention or anything of that sort. If the school chooses find something that will not make them laugh.

[Sith Lord 13]

That's not a valid excuse. Giving out pointless punishments is an exploration of a system designed to prevent classroom disruption. It's wrong. I don't care about some teacher's sense of authority, if they really thing the punishment system is there for them to show off their "strength", they shouldn't be a teacher.

You also have students who will break any and every minor rule they can as an act of defiance, a way of showing they don't respect the teacher or the class.

[Amnesiac]

exploration or exploitation? Some teachers just do their jobs for money and like to be an ass. Why they are still teaching when their are other jobs out there, I have no clue

Whoops, I meant exploitation.

You also have students who will break any and every minor rule they can as an act of defiance, a way of showing they don't respect the teacher or the class.

Well, then they need to be taken care of. I don't see why a teacher has to punish every student for every minor, non-disruptive mistake they make, though. Teachers have to be lenient at times — they have to think, "is handing out a punishment really necessary? Is this student really disrupting the class? Will I waste more class time on this minor thing, or just tell them to be careful and not do it again?"

[ShyGuyInChicago]

Out of school suspensions are pointless, because usually the kid takes it as a free vacation.

Not necessarily. When I was in high school if a student got suspended they could make up work, but they only got 50 percent credit. Some students might be less likely to do something that results in suspension if they know that it will hurt them academically.

[The Dark Lord]

Not necessarily. When I was in high school if a student got suspended they could make up work, but they only got 50 percent credit. Some students might be less likely to do something that results in suspension if they know that it will hurt them academically.

That's different. Out of school suspensions in my school mean nothing, but if there was punishments academically then suspensions and school punishments would be much more effective

[Fact]

Even if it did, that's not equivalent of missing 7 lessons. It's equivalent to missing 7 class periods. The pace of a class can be accelerated appropriately with no lessons being missed at all.

So everyone else's learning should be crammed in due to one or two people's lack of concentration?
It'd be much easier if they were just removed from class after say three repeats of similar behaviour within a small time period.

[Quick_Sylver]

I've gotten detention a couple times, and one ISS... Didnt do much for me. I dont really see how it helps, but without it, we'd be in a lot less intelligent place than we are I feel.