communism

[RbElImInAtOr]

communism yay or nay??????

[RbElImInAtOr]

i like the concept however there should be certain gaps in society for example an unemployed slob who has no interest in getting a job and is quite happy to live off welfare should not get the same amout of money per anum than a soldier who protects us and our freedom and a soldier should earn more than a doctor as a soldir is under more stress and does a tougher job than some docs

[Amnesiac]

Communism doesn't work. It's a well known fact that some of Marx's ideas published in The Communist Manifesto aren't feasible, and many of his predictions (such as a worker's uprising) were wrong. Besides, communism was designed for an era where we had an oppressed working class. Nowadays, we live in a society where there isn't an oppressed working class — the middle class makes up an overwhelming majority of the population, and the lower classes still have a good standard of living. Therefore, the entire premise of communism — a worker's uprising — isn't applicable to the modern world.

A simpler version of communism, "everyone's equal" is also impossible as long as greed and emotion in general exist.

I recommend everyone read The Communist Manifesto.

[Peace God]

My stance on communism similar to my stance (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1069382&postcount=2) on socialism...and to a slightly lesser extent capitalism.

I personally dont think communisn would work well in most developed nations...especially America.

One thing i dont like about communism is Marx's idea that a cycle of revolution, complete overthrow of the previous government and economic system and then dictatorship of the proletariat is absolutely necessary for communism to work.

[Amnesiac]

One thing i dont like about communism is Marx's idea that a cycle of revolution, complete overthrow of the previous government and economic system and then dictatorship of the proletariat is absolutely necessary for communism to work.

Exactly. Not only is the likelihood of this ever happening very small — it never occurred in Europe as Marx described (an alternate form of communism created by Lenin worked in Russia) — it's not even possible in modern times. As I said before, the "working class" (proletariat) isn't the same as it was. Working people have good standards of life and adequate pay. There's no motivation for them to overthrow the government, and they're too small of a group (service industry careers make up 70% of the United States' workforce) to hold a position of power anyway.

[Korashk]

Me being a Laissez-Faire capitalist, I realize that I am not exactly the most knowledgeable of systems other than the one I advocate. However, Marxism is only a sub-set of communism, and many, many communist authorities claim that Marx was one of the worst things to ever happen to communism. So criticizing communism using Marx as the sole example isn't really fair to the ideology.

[Peace God]

However, Marxism is only a sub-set of communism, and many, many communist authorities claim that Marx was one of the worst things to ever happen to communism. So criticizing communism using Marx as the sole example isn't really fair to the ideology.
Interesting point but I think that someone could also argue the opposite.

Maybe by saying something like "Communist authorities, governing bodies and rulers are the worst things to happen to communism."
Perhaps by distorting and corrupting a true Marxist ideology.

[Amnesiac]

Me being a Laissez-Faire capitalist, I realize that I am not exactly the most knowledgeable of systems other than the one I advocate. However, Marxism is only a sub-set of communism, and many, many communist authorities claim that Marx was one of the worst things to ever happen to communism. So criticizing communism using Marx as the sole example isn't really fair to the ideology.

Marx was the one who started the communist movement in the first place. I'm attacking so-called "Marxism", what most people think of as the primary form of communism. There are different versions of communist ideology that have been succesful — Marxism-Leninism, for example — but pure Marxism as put forth in The Communist Manifesto is the original and primary form of communism.

The main difference between Marxism-Leninism/Stalinism is the implementation. However, in the end, the primary goal of communism is to have a stateless nation where classes (or wealth) no longer exist, therefore eliminating any possibility of oppression. This is, of course, impossible.

[Korashk]

Marx is not the originator of communism, the ideology was around for hundreds of years before he was even born.

Anyways, the primary reason I'm not a fan of communism is that it is about the furthest away from personal, economic freedom that you can get. I wouldn't care if it were the most perfect economic system to ever exist. I would still oppose it.

[Amnesiac]

Marx is not the originator of communism, the ideology was around for hundreds of years before he was even born.

I never said he was the originator of communism. He simply compiled all the aspects of communism into one theory, named it, and encouraged a worker's uprising. He was the first to compile it into an organized idea that could be spread.

[Black Eight]

i like the concept however there should be certain gaps in society for example an unemployed slob who has no interest in getting a job and is quite happy to live off welfare should not get the same amout of money per anum than a soldier who protects us and our freedom and a soldier should earn more than a doctor as a soldir is under more stress and does a tougher job than some docs

Great point. Communism definitely wouldn't work in the US because of the unemployed slobs. Communism depends on all citizens wanting to work, but with welfare and government money there is absolutely no incentive to work.

[Amnesiac]

Communism definitely wouldn't work in the US because of the unemployed slobs. Communism depends on all citizens wanting to work, but with welfare and government money there is absolutely no incentive to work.

Most unemployed people have a valid reason to be unemployed.

Also, communism relies on the working class not wanting to work for the bourgeois (the higher classes, technically middle class). That's why the proletarians revolt, establish a dictatorship of the proletariat to redistribute wealth by force, and establish a classless society where everyone has an equal amount of wealth and rights. It's not about people wanting to work, everyone has to work and contribute to their communities — if they don't, the temporary dictatorship of the proletariat is designed to force them or remove them from society.

[Azunite]

Lol Commander Awesome thats why you are at VT Communist Party :D

[SamB]

Communism is a great idea but it is flawed, you cannot go against human nature and make everything equal as it just wouldn't work.

[Amnesiac]

Lol Commander Awesome thats why you are at VT Communist Party :D

Of course, I can't be part of that party if I don't know anything about it :rolleyes:

[Iceman]

Of course yay. And how would communism not work in a modern society?

[Amnesiac]

Of course yay. And how would communism not work in a modern society?

Communism doesn't work. It's a well known fact that some of Marx's ideas published in The Communist Manifesto aren't feasible, and many of his predictions (such as a worker's uprising) were wrong. Besides, communism was designed for an era where we had an oppressed working class. Nowadays, we live in a society where there isn't an oppressed working class — the middle class makes up an overwhelming majority of the population, and the lower classes still have a good standard of living. Therefore, the entire premise of communism — a worker's uprising — isn't applicable to the modern world.

Exactly. Not only is the likelihood of this ever happening very small — it never occurred in Europe as Marx described (an alternate form of communism created by Lenin worked in Russia) — it's not even possible in modern times. As I said before, the "working class" (proletariat) isn't the same as it was. Working people have good standards of life and adequate pay. There's no motivation for them to overthrow the government, and they're too small of a group (service industry careers make up 70% of the United States' workforce) to hold a position of power anyway.

There.

[Peace God]

Edit: lol nevermind...he beat me to it.

And how would communism not work in a modern society?

[Iceman]

Working people have adequate pay? and yes there is a oppressed working class! And just because it is "small" doesn't mean it can't overthrow.

[Amnesiac]

Working people have adequate pay? and yes there is a oppressed working class! And just because it is "small" doesn't mean it can't overthrow.

Yes, they do. In the West, thanks to minimum wage laws and government benefits, people are doing fine. The conditions of the working man today are immeasurably better than back in the 1840s, when Marx wrote the Manifesto. That was a time where people couldn't feed themselves. Nowadays, workers get good pay — they can afford a place to live, food and amenities like TV and the Internet. Some workers get paid just as well as people in the service industries. It's not an issue.

And yes, since they are small it makes it incredibly difficult for them to overthrow the government. Marx's theories relied on the fact that in the 19th century, the proletarians made up a majority of every country's population. Nowadays, they don't even come close.

[Iceman]

I know a ton of people that can't afford TV or internet working the most the government will alow them

[Amnesiac]

I know a ton of people that can't afford TV or internet working the most the government will alow them

That's not the point. The fact is, living conditions today are, as I said immeasurably better than back then. You also haven't addressed the underwhelming minority the "working class" falls into.

Besides, saying "I know a ton of people" doesn't hold up as statistical evidence in a debate. Either provide a study or don't say anything.

[Korashk]

I know a ton of people that can't afford TV or internet working the most the government will alow them
The government does not have a set amount of maximum pay, and not being able to afford TV and Internet does not make one oppressed.

[Iceman]

No they have a set amount of hours you can work is what I was refrencing

[Amnesiac]

No they have a set amount of hours you can work is what I was refrencing

So? They're still not oppressed. With labor unions and an ever-increasing minimum wage, the working class is living under better conditions than ever. It's not hard to find someone working as a miner or some other "dirty" job making upwards of $60,000 to $90,000 a year.

[Iceman]

It all depends on your ideology.

[Amnesiac]

It all depends on your ideology.

That doesn't explain anything. The modern working class is anything but oppressed as Marx saw it.

[Iceman]

But what is your defeniton of oppressed

[Amnesiac]

But what is your defeniton of oppressed

to burden with cruel or unjust impositions or restraints; subject to a burdensome or harsh exercise of authority or power: a people oppressed by totalitarianism.

Are working people burdened by unfair restraints? No.

Are they subject to "harsh exercise or authority or power"? No.

[Iceman]

See I was using a different defenition which I am trying to find again

[closed]

Communism can work in an utopia. It is a really awesome idea, but people are vile creatures, and will take advantage of it. The idea is that you give as much as you can and get as much as you need. But people fake disabilities, people fake everything. If people were pure then it would be different, but history proves otherwise.

[Sage]

See I was using a different defenition which I am trying to find again

You can't just use whatever definition of a word best supports your agenda.

[The Dark Lord]

It all depends on your ideology.

That awkward moment when you realise you have been completely owned.

[Azunite]

Communism: The government says "Here, work at this place. Live in this house, take your 50 dollars "
You are not allowed to build up your own business, and the government has to do everything.

A very good example,
Libya is communist, right? The government needs to build car repair garages, but they don't build any.
At the Libya-Tunisia border, at the Tunisian side, there are dozens or repair stations, because people in Lybia go there, repair their cars and go back to Libya.

A Doctor gets the same amount of money as a janitor does in Soviet Russia ( Soviet Russia )

[Korashk]

Communism can work in an utopia. It is a really awesome idea, but people are vile creatures, and will take advantage of it. The idea is that you give as much as you can and get as much as you need. But people fake disabilities, people fake everything. If people were pure then it would be different, but history proves otherwise.
Communism isn't an awesome idea. It's legalized theft just like most forms of government. Unless we're talking about anarcho-communism, which is a concept that only works on the extremely small scale.

[Continuum]

A Doctor gets the same amount of money as a janitor does in Soviet Russia ( Soviet Russia )

That is because class does not exist in a communist society. Everyone is a prole and neither intelligence nor career will back you up. This is another reason why communism doesn't work: Everyone doesn't get motivated on toiling for less, and that greatly inhibits the production in totality. It won't work unless people are kept from knowing anything, especially about wages and the economy they're working on.

Communism isn't an awesome idea. It's legalized theft just like most forms of government. Unless we're talking about anarcho-communism, which is a concept that only works on the extremely small scale.

They don't take from you, they keep you from even possessing anything, save for a few commodities. Anarcho-Communism is cool, but it only works in a small outlaw community. It just keeps the simplicity of everybody working for their own needs and keeping their own rights and equality even without the law, such that they needn't to work for others, unless they themselves deliberately wanted to.

[Amnesiac]

Communism can work in an utopia. It is a really awesome idea, but people are vile creatures, and will take advantage of it. The idea is that you give as much as you can and get as much as you need. But people fake disabilities, people fake everything. If people were pure then it would be different, but history proves otherwise.

Communism can only work in a classless society. Class, however, will always exist so long as man has the desire for power — which will be forever. Therefore, communism is impossible; it has always been impossible.

[Korashk]

They don't take from you, they keep you from even possessing anything, save for a few commodities.
That is much, MUCH worse.