Should the long term unemployed have to work to earn benefits?

[The Dark Lord]

Iain Duncan Smith, the british secretary of state for work and pensions, announced this week that in order for the long term unemployed to collect their benefits they will have to do community service. Is it fair to treat the unemployed as criminals?

Full Story: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/nov/11/welfare-iain-duncan-smith

[Fact]

Iain Duncan Smith, the british secretary of state for work and pensions, announced this week that in order for the long term unemployed to collect their benefits they will have to do community service. Is it fair to treat the unemployed as criminals?

Full Story: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/nov/11/welfare-iain-duncan-smith

Oh Mai Gawd!
I covered this in debate last week.

I think that if a person is unemployed for a long time and it's their own problem e.g. they're too lazy to get a job/they've been searching for a job for longer than X amount of time, then it's justified.

However, if a person is made redundant and they were doing skilled work, I don't think they should have to revert back to doing menial tasks such as community service.
Same goes for people who have been made unemployed for other reasons that were out of their control, even though I can't think of any examples of that other than redundancy.

[huginnmuninn]

I think that this is fair because they are earning the unemployment benefits and helping the community

[Peace God]

Not a terrible idea.

Enforcement is gonna be a bitch though. Exceptions will have to be made, there's gonna be a lot of debate over the limit(which btw probably wont be the same for everyone) and committees will have to be set up to review long term unemployed citizen's eligibility.

[Amnesiac]

It depends on the situation. Some people can't work because they're physically unable to work. We can't blame them and strip them of basic necessities for that. As for those who are lazy asses mooching off of taxpayers, they deserve to be hit hard by this new policy.

[Fact]

It depends on the situation. Some people can't work because they're physically unable to work. We can't blame them and strip them of basic necessities for that. As for those who are lazy asses mooching off of taxpayers, they deserve to be hit hard by this new policy.

Those who are physically unable to work would claim incapacity benefit, so I'm sure they'd be made exempt.

[TopGear]

Well what about those who have worked for 25-30 years and have there Masters, and Doctoral degrees? Those who have paid from anything of 60 - 120 thousand dollars for school and just can't get a job because of the economy? Do you think those people deserve to do community service for there unemployment benefits?

I think not, For those I have mentioned I think they should have there unemployment without hassle.

~Drew

[huginnmuninn]

Well what about those who have worked for 25-30 years and have there Masters, and Doctoral degrees? Those who have paid from anything of 60 - 120 thousand dollars for school and just can't get a job because of the economy? Do you think those people deserve to do community service for there unemployment benefits?

I think not, For those I have mentioned I think they should have there unemployment without hassle.

~Drew

so just because they go to college they deserve unemployment benefits?

[TopGear]

Then what's the point in investing in education or excelling farther into school?

Why should a man or woman that worked as a high end job worked through school and provides for a family have to work right next to the guy that didn't go to college or even dropped out of high school and worked at McDonalds.

[Fact]

so just because they go to college they deserve unemployment benefits?

No, because they work hard and do a difficult job that requires a great deal of skill, intelligence and effort. Not to mention all the cash put into it.

Then what's the point in investing in education or excelling farther into school?

Why should a man or woman that worked as a high end job worked through school and provides for a family have to work right next to the guy that didn't go to college or even dropped out of high school and worked at McDonalds.

Exactly this.

[huginnmuninn]

Then what's the point in investing in education or excelling farther into school?

Why should a man or woman that worked as a high end job worked through school and provides for a family have to work right next to the guy that didn't go to college or even dropped out of high school and worked at McDonalds.

maybe they should try to get a better education so that they can get a job. If they can't find a job better than one at McDonalds should they just not take the jjob even though they have the ability to do it?

[Fact]

maybe they should try to get a better education so that they can get a job. If they can't find a job better than one at McDonalds should they just not take the jjob even though they have the ability to do it?

I don't think that's the point he was making.
He was saying that if you're going to make everyone, including the people at the higher end of the career scale, work for benefits, you're degrading those who have further education to be the same as someone who barely made it when they were 16.
It's a case of, if you've paid into the system and you were paying your way before something went wrong, you can relax.
If you're a lazy stupid piece of shit, work work work!

[huginnmuninn]

I don't think that's the point he was making.
He was saying that if you're going to make everyone, including the people at the higher end of the career scale, work for benefits, you're degrading those who have further education to be the same as someone who barely made it when they were 16.
It's a case of, if you've paid into the system and you were paying your way before something went wrong, you can relax.
If you're a lazy stupid piece of shit, work work work!

as long as the person is actually looking for a job then i dont mind them not doing community service but if a person turns down a job when they don't have one because they are lazy or if the person isn't even looking for a job and they expect the government to give them money then I'd make them do community service.

[Fact]

as long as the person is actually looking for a job then i dont mind them not doing community service but if a person turns down a job when they don't have one because they are lazy or if the person isn't even looking for a job and they expect the government to give them money then I'd make them do community service.

Yeah, I kind of agree with this.
Lazy people should not be given free hand outs.
People who work hard shouldn't be treated like they're lazy.

[TopGear]

I don't think that's the point he was making.
He was saying that if you're going to make everyone, including the people at the higher end of the career scale, work for benefits, you're degrading those who have further education to be the same as someone who barely made it when they were 16.
It's a case of, if you've paid into the system and you were paying your way before something went wrong, you can relax.
If you're a lazy stupid piece of shit, work work work!

Thank you Fact for extending my point :)

[Fact]

Thank you Fact for extending my point :)

You are most welcome.

[TopGear]

You are most welcome.

I would give you rep, but I can't cuz I already have. :)

[Fact]

I would give you rep, but I can't cuz I already have. :)

Same ;) :P

[Sith Lord 13]

If one is not on disability, I feel they should be doing community service to receive unemployment benefits, if there is a need for that service. The positions of needed community service should be filled in order of those who've been on service longest. Community service jobs shouldn't be manufactured just to give those on unemployment something to do.

[ShaneK]

Checkin uk jobs vs uk unemployment and sickness stats - there well short its like 7 people for every vacancy. they need to make more jobs.

Mind you there desperate, more stupid than america with money. Gonna be massive government job losses - the unemployed will be expected to pick up the slack.

as all over the world those at the bottom pay for the mistakes of those at that top

england is showing the rest of us western nations where were heading socially and economically

[TopGear]

Mind you there desperate, more stupid than america with money.

What are you saying here?

[ShaneK]

The united kingdom has way more debt than america when taking into account its size. Both government and citizens personal debts. They have to do something drastic to balance the books, they believe

oh i forget they got this private money thing where private companies build schools , hospitals and shit. And every year the costs keep going up. Then at the end of the contract they have to buy it.

[TopGear]

Ok, that makes more since. I was confused on how you worded it and didn't want to take offense thinking you were calling americans stupid. haha. Thanks for clearing that up lol

[ShaneK]

considerin i was born in brentwood, cali thats unlikely. but i gotta sai its always nice to meet a considerate person.

[The Dark Lord]

The united kingdom has way more debt than america when taking into account its size. Both government and citizens personal debts. They have to do something drastic to balance the books, they believe

oh i forget they got this private money thing where private companies build schools , hospitals and shit. And every year the costs keep going up. Then at the end of the contract they have to buy it.

Not really, every major country in the world has to balance their books

[ShaneK]

Individuals have to balance their books. But the PFI debt is something a little extra that most major western countries lack. I cant see my home state having to buy a hospital for $2 billion in 20 years. Its a delayed debt that builds up. Havent you guess got cuts in key services to pay for these contacts? i believe you have

[The Dark Lord]

Individuals have to balance their books. But the PFI debt is something a little extra that most major western countries lack. I cant see my home state having to buy a hospital for $2 billion in 20 years. Its a delayed debt that builds up. Havent you guess got cuts in key services to pay for these contacts? i believe you have

Not to pay for these contracts, to cut the huge deficit we've got. The deficit was caused by the global financial crisis and unless economic management by the previous Labour gov't, the contracts are the fault of incompotent government ministers. It is the gov't that has to balance their books, not the individuals.

[CaptainObvious]

I'm amazed by the attitude that just because one has gotten an education or has had a certain skilled job before, they deserve to get another one of similar quality and shouldn't have to work otherwise. Absolutely not! Our society can't afford that kind of entitlement, it's ridiculous. If someone is unemployed and well educated, they need to find a job. If they can't find one as good as their last, well, I'm sorry, you take what you can get you know?

I don't think that's the point he was making.
He was saying that if you're going to make everyone, including the people at the higher end of the career scale, work for benefits, you're degrading those who have further education to be the same as someone who barely made it when they were 16.
It's a case of, if you've paid into the system and you were paying your way before something went wrong, you can relax.
If you're a lazy stupid piece of shit, work work work!

If they're educated enough, they will definitely be able to find a job assuming they are willing to lower one or another of their standards. The point of making people who are able work for benefits is so that it's not a decision of "do I take this slightly worse job or do I get paid for sitting at home waiting for a better one" - the government should not be incentivizing that kind of thought process, and so making it a decision of "do I take this maybe slightly less than perfect job or do I receive benefits at the cost of doing some community service for them?"

Too much entitlement. Last thought: too many people seem to think that just becoming educated means you deserve some awesome job. Like everything else, you have to be able to contribute, not just show up with some credential and assume you'll be welcomed merely on that basis.

[sCa45]

Getting money for unemployment in general just baffles me.

[Perseus]

Getting money for unemployment in general just baffles me.

Why? If you are unemployed, are you going to eat, drink, etc.? You have no money, or you have a money that is being dwindled away because you don't have a job.

[Peace God]

I'm amazed by the attitude that just because one has gotten an education or has had a certain skilled job before they deserve to get another one of similar quality and shouldn't have to work otherwise. Absolutely not! Our society can't afford that kind of entitlement, it's ridiculous. If someone is unemployed and well educated, they need to find a job. If they can't find one as good as their last, well, I'm sorry, you take what you can get you know?
Good Point. I dont think someone with an education should be exempt. Especially since its easier for them to get a good paying job.

I think the reason you're seeing this attitude is because, when unemployed people are mentioned, most VTers think of lazy ass, ghetto, uneducated welfare queens.

[The Joker]

So, I was reading through this thread, and I pretty much had the same thought as David (before reading his post).

You're assuming that just because someone has gone through all this education, that they are allowed to just be able to sit back and collect benefits? No, that's dumb. They went through education so they could get a decent job, so they should continue trying to get a job (even if they have to lower their standards a bit) or do community service. You should have to work for your money, just like everyone else, regardless of your education level. It should be equal for everyone, not having a specific group be more "equal" than another.