Dairy Farming D:<

[insanity]

I always thought it was just the meat industry that treated animals terribley, but aparently the dairy industry is also just as cruel. I hadnt ever thought of how cow milk comes about until I stumbled upon an artical on the internet about the dairy industry, it makes me feel sick that people have gotten away with treating animals this way and no one seems to care. I dont eat meat and I am pround of that, no matter how many times the food teacher tells me how I need meat to survive there is no way I am going to be able to eat it, the worst bit is when people ask me why I am vegetarian and I say I wont support all the animal cruelty involved most people deny it and say that all this stuff doesnt happen, the images in their heads all seem to be happy cows in green grassy fields not in little cages standng in there own poop.

just thought I needed to add a link to prove my point:

http://nzdairy.webs.com/thelifeofadairycow.htm

8 foot sativa's music video Sleepwalker got band from youtube because of the very graphical calf/cow slaughter and transport they used in their video, Its really graphical but it really shows what its like from the calfs point of veiw :(

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.channel&contributorid=5815464

[Sage]

It's the cows' fault for being so milky and delicious.

[UnknownError]

It's the cows' fault for being so milky and delicious.

LOOL. :L
I might quote that. :D

[Syvelocin]

I can't stand it myself. So many people don't know the truth about this sort of thing. I'm also a vegetarian and I only eat organic produce. Organic/local dairy products ensure that the animal in question wasn't pumped with hormones and were "happy" animals, free-range, grass-fed cows and chickens that haven't been kept in cages their entire lives.

If humans have rights, other animals have rights. I don't think it's fair that we treat them so horridly yet we're really no better than them.

[JackOfClubs]

I can't stand it myself. So many people don't know the truth about this sort of thing. I'm also a vegetarian and I only eat organic produce. Organic/local dairy products ensure that the animal in question wasn't pumped with hormones and were "happy" animals, free-range, grass-fed cows and chickens that haven't been kept in cages their entire lives.

If humans have rights, other animals have rights. I don't think it's fair that we treat them so horridly yet we're really no better than them.
We're really no better than them? Last time I checked, cows didn't build cities, have the ability to use tools, or have opposable thumbs.

[Sugaree]

I don't see how this is really news. Everyone knows that most farming companies abuse their animals, this doesn't shock me in the least bit.

[insanity]

But even if we are apparently more 'intelligent' then them how come we have built citys that have caused the environment to be ruined in places, caused extinction of many things, globel warmimg, obisitey, war.... and the list goes on of the things we intelligent humans have wreaked, even though we say we are all superiour and smarter then all the other life on this planet we are also much crueler and have done so much more damage. So I agree, we arnt much better then them if not worse...
(btw sorry about my bad spelling!)

[Sage]

If humans have rights, other animals have rights.

I fail to see the the reasoning behind that.

[Magus]

I fail to see the the reasoning behind that.

Man, I agree with this guy.

AUQG9PhDNnk

[Kaius]

VT Chronicle :arrow2: ROTW

[Continuum]

If humans have rights, other animals have rights.

We should give them some, but only to an extent. Animals could not be equated to us people, and neither us to them. If we use them as a continuous food source, it's just right to not let some of them starve, so as it is to our profit eventually. We just take responsibility for them, not totally be given rights.

Aside from that, animals are not even aware basically. Give them rights, sure, but they aren't sentient enough to exploit it. So as they can't use their own rights for their own, they won't also respect ours in case of mindless attack.

[Sith Lord 13]

We're really no better than them? Last time I checked, cows didn't build cities, have the ability to use tools, or have opposable thumbs.

Point being? How does that make us better than them?

[Jess]

I've seen Food Inc but that doesn't mean I will decide to be vegetarian. I love meat too much.

Same with milk

[Sage]

We should give them some, but only to an extent.

Why? What difference does it make how much a cow enjoys being alive if we're just going to eat it anyway?

[ShatteredWings]

Why? What difference does it make how much a cow enjoys being alive if we're just going to eat it anyway?

Happy animals are tasty animals...

[Syvelocin]

I mean that are we really worth more than them? So nature decided to make humans the only ones with value, the most important ones, the only ones that deserve respect at all? We're animals just like them, we just happened to be the most intelligent animals. It doesn't mean we're the only beings on the planet that deserve anything just because evolution was more generous to us (religious views aside).

I know that humans will still eat animals no matter what. But can we at least treat them humanely? I hate to use this example; what if there was another animal which evolved to be even more intelligent than humans, and happened to feed off of us, and treat us just like we treat animals. What then?

What gives us the right? We've done more harm than we're worth, and we can't at least be courteous about it?

[Sage]

Happy animals are tasty animals...
That, as far as I'm aware, hasn't been proven.

I mean that are we really worth more than them?
Yes.

So nature decided to make humans the only ones with value, the most important ones, the only ones that deserve respect at all?
Nature decides nothing, it is an obscure concept that we label the world and universe around us with. Humans are, as far as we know, the only creatures capable of conceiving such a concept as "value", and thus we are valuable, because we say we are. Society would fall apart if we lost all shred of respect for one another: It's necessary for us to, generally, respect other people because we can't go on if we don't. However, if we should disrespect animals, society as we know it continues, unchanged.

We're animals just like them, we just happened to be the most intelligent animals. It doesn't mean we're the only beings on the planet that deserve anything just because evolution was more generous to us (religious views aside).
Evolution isn't 'generous.' Animals evolve to adapt to their surroundings and to fill niches. We may be the most intelligent, but we lack the muscles of an elephant, the speed of a cheetah, the wings of an eagle... See where I'm going with this?

I know that humans will still eat animals no matter what. But can we at least treat them humanely?
There's no point.

I hate to use this example; what if there was another animal which evolved to be even more intelligent than humans, and happened to feed off of us, and treat us just like we treat animals. What then?
Your hypothetical situation is too unrealistic and outlandish to be taken seriously. The entire argument appeals to compassion, because we as sentient beings would hate to be slaughtered and butchered in the way livestock are, but it falls flat on its face because the animals lack our sentience, and so have a lesser sense of sheer, absolute terror.

What gives us the right?
We understand the concept of 'rights.' That's what gives us the right.

We've done more harm than we're worth, and we can't at least be courteous about it?
More costly than it's worth.

[Sith Lord 13]

Your hypothetical situation is too unrealistic and outlandish to be taken seriously. The entire argument appeals to compassion, because we as sentient beings would hate to be slaughtered and butchered in the way livestock are, but it falls flat on its face because the animals lack our sentience, and so have a lesser sense of sheer, absolute terror.

Animals do have emotions. What is the line at which something is killable? What is the breaking mark for sentience?

[Sage]

What is the breaking mark for sentience?

Humans.

[Perseus]

This isn't news, but the whole meat industry, etc. should be reformed. I don't want to eat shit that is pumped with hormones and cows that eat corn instead of grass. It doesn't matter how they're treated, but they should be treated better. The way animals in factory farms, etc. is horrendous.

[Sith Lord 13]

Humans.

And what proves other animals to be inferior to us. No other animal had developed WMDs, nukes, etc. In fact, no other animal kills members of it's own species for fun. I dare say that animals are indeed as sentient as us. They have means of internal communication, the fact that it's not cross-species is as much our fault as theirs.

[Korashk]

And what proves other animals to be inferior to us. No other animal had developed WMDs, nukes, etc. In fact, no other animal kills members of it's own species for fun.
Dolphins do.

I dare say that animals are indeed as sentient as us. They have means of internal communication, the fact that it's not cross-species is as much our fault as theirs.
It's not so much the sentience that makes humans special. It's the sapience.

[Jess]

Wait, dolphins kill others for fun?

[Korashk]

Wait, dolphins kill others for fun?
Well, for fun is taking a bit of liberty when describing the motivation. However, there is no discernible reason for why they kill one another and then seem to play with the mutilated pieces.

They also also like to rape things. Dolphins are evil creatures and I do not know why so many people like them.

[ShatteredWings]

Dolphins do.
I'm pretty sure dolphins kill other critters for fun (I know groups will gang up on sharks for the hell of it), but not each other. May be wrong

I know chimps practice in canablism once in awhile, as well as attacking other troops

It's not so much the sentience that makes humans special. It's the sapience.

Um.. Humans being wise is arguable.

They also also like to rape things. Dolphins are evil creatures and I do not know why so many people like them.
lulz, yeah, dolphins have sex for the hell of it. They also seem to have some sort of language.

We like them so much because they're just like us but seem more graceful (water thing)

[Korashk]

Um.. Humans being wise is arguable.
Not legitimately arguable, but to be more specific:

Sapience: the ability to apply knowledge or experience or understanding or common sense and insight

Humans are the only species that demonstrates this.

[ShatteredWings]

Not legitimately arguable, but to be more specific:

Sapience: the ability to apply knowledge or experience or understanding or common sense and insight

Humans are the only species that demonstrates this.

Again, do we REALLY demonstrate this?

Sometimes yes. But most animals can realize "fire is hot, don't touch", which is really the same application of knowledge.

[Korashk]

Again, do we REALLY demonstrate this?
You really going down that road. Just stop. You and I both know that people do.

Sometimes yes. But most animals can realize "fire is hot, don't touch", which is really the same application of knowledge.
IF you'd ever taken a psychology class you'd know that it isn't. That is called conditioning.

[Peace God]

AUQG9PhDNnk
...assuming all of us vegetarians are animal rights activists.

[Continuum]

That, as far as I'm aware, hasn't been proven.


By mean happy my idea was satisfying them through food intake, even if they do not know what their captors have in store.


Sometimes yes. But most animals can realize "fire is hot, don't touch", which is really the same application of knowledge.

I believe that is basic learning and memory, they're not really applying their own minds into it.

[Sith Lord 13]

Sapience: the ability to apply knowledge or experience or understanding or common sense and insight

Humans are the only species that demonstrates this.

Define the difference between this and conditioning.

[Punk_Kid]

I could care less about what happens to the animals in the factories and on the farms as long as the product taste good.

The meat industry helps create jobs, stimulate the economy and some give to charities. Not only that but the farmers make money which allows them to help support their town when they go shopping for everyday items.

As far as intelligence goes, we are the greatest species currently. We can contemplate ideas, organize strategies and study stuff that is invisible to the naked eye. We do have movable thumbs, and we have built cities. We have manufactured some of the most efficient ways to kill living things and create mass extinctions in the blink of an eye.

That, I believe, will be our own undoing and ultimately wipe most of us out. :yes:

[Perseus]

I could care less about what happens to the animals in the factories and on the farms as long as the product taste good.

Not only that but the farmers make money which allows them to help support their town when they go shopping for everyday items.



Factory farms cause farmers to lose their jobs. They don't help them.

[Sith Lord 13]

As far as intelligence goes, we are the greatest species currently. We can contemplate ideas, organize strategies and study stuff that is invisible to the naked eye. We do have movable thumbs, and we have built cities. We have manufactured some of the most efficient ways to kill living things and create mass extinctions in the blink of an eye.

Animals organize strategies and contemplate ideas. I'd say opposable thumbs doesn't prove intelligence, just makes it easier to manipulate the world around us. While it's true that we can study things invisible to the naked eye, I'd say it's more than balanced by our predilection to mass murder.

[Korashk]

Define the difference between this and conditioning.
Conditioning refers to an organism reacting in a certain way to a stimulus. Over time the organism "learns" to react a certain way when said stimulus is present. Take the above example:

Touch fire.
Fire hurts.
Don't touch fire.

The organism now knows that touching fire is painful and should be avoided. However, it does not know what what fire is, or why fire hurts.

This is where sapience comes in. A sapient being can see the fire, figure out why the fire hurts, utilize fire as a tool, and then figure out how fire works scientifically.

[Sith Lord 13]

Conditioning refers to an organism reacting in a certain way to a stimulus. Over time the organism "learns" to react a certain way when said stimulus is present. Take the above example:

Touch fire.
Fire hurts.
Don't touch fire.

Alright.

The organism now knows that touching fire is painful and should be avoided. However, it does not know what what fire is, or why fire hurts.

This is where sapience comes in. A sapient being can see the fire, figure out why the fire hurts, utilize fire as a tool, and then figure out how fire works scientifically.

While they may not have as rich an understanding as we do, animals can do the same. Fire hurts because it's hot. If they see a fire on a cold night, they can get close to warm up without getting so close they get hurt. As for your third criteria, a good chunk of humanity doesn't know how it works scientifically.

[Sage]

As for your third criteria, a good chunk of humanity doesn't know how it works scientifically.

Not knowing is different from not being able to know.

[Sith Lord 13]

Not knowing is different from not being able to know.

And what about individuals who are unable to know? Say the mentally retarded, are they a viable food source because they can't understand a combustion reaction?

[Sage]

And what about individuals who are unable to know? Say the mentally retarded, are they a viable food source because they can't understand a combustion reaction?

That is because of a deformity or defect or disability of some sort. Assuming they are in good health, their mind is naturally capable of learning and understanding such things.

[Sith Lord 13]

That is because of a deformity or defect or disability of some sort. Assuming they are in good health, their mind is naturally capable of learning and understanding such things.

My point is they, as an individual, are unable to know. As such, they meet those justifications provided.

[Korashk]

While they may not have as rich an understanding as we do, animals can do the same. Fire hurts because it's hot. If they see a fire on a cold night, they can get close to warm up without getting so close they get hurt.
I seriously doubt that a wild animal is going to be able to get close enough to fire for this to take place. Even if it did that would still be considered conditioning.

And what about individuals who are unable to know? Say the mentally retarded, are they a viable food source because they can't understand a combustion reaction?
Heh?

[Sith Lord 13]

I seriously doubt that a wild animal is going to be able to get close enough to fire for this to take place. Even if it did that would still be considered conditioning.

If you put it that broadly, everything is conditioning.

Heh?

I'm saying there are humans who don't meet your criteria. Does that mean they should be foodstuff as well?

[Korashk]

If you put it that broadly, everything is conditioning.
I shall elaborate: The animal getting warmed by fire is not a result of learning. An animal that "wishes" to get warm might notice that getting near a source of heat achieves warmth. It will then might continue to use THAT source to heat itself. It would not, however realize that said heat source is a universal one. Fire here = warmth to conditioned animal, but fire over there has no such association.

I'm saying there are humans who don't meet your criteria. Does that mean they should be foodstuff as well?
I haven't yet given my criteria in this thread. You couldn't possibly know whether or not something fits into it. Although, retards and infants would.

[Sith Lord 13]

I shall elaborate: The animal getting warmed by fire is not a result of learning. An animal that "wishes" to get warm might notice that getting near a source of heat achieves warmth. It will then might continue to use THAT source to heat itself. It would not, however realize that said heat source is a universal one. Fire here = warmth to conditioned animal, but fire over there has no such association.

But animals, at least some animals, do make that association. They're able to realize a fire here and a fire there are the same thing.

I haven't yet given my criteria in this thread. You couldn't possibly know whether or not something fits into it. Although, retards and infants would.

To be clear, I meant criteria for sapience, which you gave here:

This is where sapience comes in. A sapient being can see the fire, figure out why the fire hurts, utilize fire as a tool, and then figure out how fire works scientifically.

[Sogeking]

Animals will never be on par with humans. To say that they deserve the same rights as humans do is outrageous. However I do not condone the Torturing or brutally murduring of animals. They should be taken out swiftly, and painlessly.

[Church]

I like to hunt my own food. Mmmm good. But I'm not turned down by any of these videos to be vegetarians.

[IsabellaJane]

This is the reason why i'm a vegan

[Syvelocin]

Animals will never be on par with humans. To say that they deserve the same rights as humans do is outrageous. However I do not condone the Torturing or brutally murduring of animals. They should be taken out swiftly, and painlessly.

I never meant we should build them their own houses or something like that. I just think they deserve a bit more than what we're giving them. Not keeping them in poor conditions their entire lives and then killing them in an unnecessary inhumane way.

[Sogeking]

I never meant we should build them their own houses or something like that. I just think they deserve a bit more than what we're giving them. Not keeping them in poor conditions

Animals that are meant to be eaten have to be in sanitized conditions, otherwise they'll contract diseases. But any other animals, other than pets,would waste resources if they had better conditions.


and then killing them in an unnecessary inhumane way.

I never said that I believe In taking them out quickly and painlessly.

[Syvelocin]

You'd be surprised by the conditions that a lot of mass farms keep their animals in. They do contract diseases. They live standing in their dung all day. It's been awhile since I saw the documentary, but Food Inc. had also brought to the table the event that a mother lost his son because he ate a hamburger at a diner and got incredibly sick with something, I think it was E coli. E coli bacteria occasionally pop up in cows' digestive track and their manure, so in the conditions that they are held in all together in one cramped pen, knee deep in manure, if one has e coli many others are bound to get it.

I was referring to farm animals instead of domestic animals. While I hate animal cruelty, I know the treatment of domestic animals isn't quite the problem here as overall they're treated much better.

And yeah, I know, I was just restating my position on the topic.

[Sage]

Not keeping them in poor conditions their entire lives and then killing them in an unnecessary inhumane way.
It's not unnecessary. We eat them.

You'd be surprised by the conditions that a lot of mass farms keep their animals in. They do contract diseases. They live standing in their dung all day. It's been awhile since I saw the documentary, but Food Inc. had also brought to the table the event that a mother lost his son because he ate a hamburger at a diner and got incredibly sick with something, I think it was E coli. E coli bacteria occasionally pop up in cows' digestive track and their manure, so in the conditions that they are held in all together in one cramped pen, knee deep in manure, if one has e coli many others are bound to get it.
Then that's only a problem because the diseases they contract could affect humans. Mass farms should be sanitary at the very least, for our own safety.

[Syvelocin]

It's not unnecessary. We eat them.


So we should torture living things for the hell of it? They're going to die anyway, so let's be cruel to them?

[Sage]

So we should torture living things for the hell of it?

No, we're going to torture them so that we can eat them. I thought I made that pretty straight-forward.

[Continuum]

No, we're going to torture them so that we can eat them. I thought I made that pretty straight-forward.

Being cut alive as cattle during slaughter is still considered as torturing them. Nonetheless, the end would still be the same. They get eaten.

[Sage]

Nonetheless, the end would still be the same. They get eaten.

Indeed, and so long as the meat remains at an affordable price and nothing in the production process endangers my health or the health of other humans, I don't care how it got onto my plate.

[Sogeking]

You'd be surprised by the conditions that a lot of mass farms keep their animals in. They do contract diseases. They live standing in their dung all day. It's been awhile since I saw the documentary, but Food Inc. had also brought to the table the event that a mother lost his son because he ate a hamburger at a diner and got incredibly sick with something, I think it was E coli. E coli bacteria occasionally pop up in cows' digestive track and their manure, so in the conditions that they are held in all together in one cramped pen, knee deep in manure, if one has e coli many others are bound to get it.

Source that please. Also dont blame the child's death on poor animal conditions because the Chef does not know how to cook meat properly. E-coli can be cooked out.

[Syvelocin]

Which bit do you want me to source though? Food Inc. is the documentary. And yes, this is true. It was partly the cooks fault. My only point is that E coli would pop up even more, and also would further infect our crops with the bateria spreading to every cow, and more of our fertilizer, so it affects more than just the animals' health.

No, we're going to torture them so that we can eat them. I thought I made that pretty straight-forward.

But you simply don't HAVE to torture them. You can still kill them and eat them without keeping them in horrible conditions and killing them in sick ways.

[Sogeking]

Which bit do you want me to source though? Food Inc. is the documentary. And yes, this is true. It was partly the cooks fault. My only point is that E coli would pop up even more, and also would further infect our crops with the bateria spreading to every cow, and more of our fertilizer, so it affects more than just the animals' health.

Food inc. is the name of the documentary that states all of the above information?

[Syvelocin]

Food inc. is the name of the documentary that states all of the above information?

Yep, pretty much. The documentary also contains footage of even the conditions inside one of the mass farms.

[Fact]

My view on animals that are going to be used for food is that as long as they're not being abused for no reason - people causing them meaningful harm e.g. throwing things at them/kicking them with intention to cause pain, then it's not a problem.

Admittedly, there are some unethical practises that happen with regards to life stock and their treatment, but IMO it will never end. Same as there will always be wars.

[Sogeking]

Yep, pretty much. The documentary also contains footage of even the conditions inside one of the mass farms. link to the video please, ill watch it when i have the chance

[Syvelocin]

It's a physical movie :P

[Sogeking]

In what format?

[Syvelocin]

Umm, I'm sure it's on DVD.

[Sogeking]

Oh, do u have another source then ?

[Perseus]

Goddamn, dude. It's a fucking movie. I've seen it, and she's right.

Food, Inc. on Youtube. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQnnU4BQz-0&feature=&p=55ED1C6FCB7039A9&index=0&playnext=1)