Guns!!!

[Phantom]

Ok lets debate gun laws.
--------------------------------------------
My opinion as I am sure you guys know is we need guns.
I will now explain why with various reasons.
----------------------------------------------------
Guns don't kill people people kill people.
Guns are necessary to defend yourself with.
There are MANY more GOOD people out there than bad people.
Guns WILL NOT stop crime. If somebody wants to kill you they WILL kill you, whether its a knife, baseball bat or whatever.
Criminals will ALWAYS get guns no matter what. Look at Canada. Criminals have tons of guns because they simply don't follow the law and never will.
Yet the civilians in Canada are defenseless.
If good people don't have guns they CANNOT protect themselves.
If somebody broke into your house with either an illegal gun or a knife, if you don't have a gun you basically have to fight them toe to toe.
Did you know guns deter crime? Criminals are more afraid to be shot by the home owner than get caught by the police.
Imagine this. Every woman has a nice little gun that they keep with them at all times and criminals know this.
Do you think there would be any more rape?
I know I would not want to mess with a woman pointing a gun at me.
Well that is just some of my arguments.

Debate away.

[redcar]

the easier it is to get guns the more people will get them and the more they will be used and gun crime will increase. if you have a gun it means you intention to use it. say for example you hear a noise downstairs in the nite, you get your gun stroll on down and fire at what you see. turns out to be a relative coming home late. people make stupid mistakes and do not have the relevant training to deal with a lethal weapon like that.

we have very strict gun laws here, like it would be virtually impossible for me to get one, simply because i dont need one and i wouldnt be allowed one unless i could prove i actually needed one.

we also have an unarmed police force (we do have an armed division though), and look at our gun problems? i am not afraid to walk down my town at nite afraid someone will attack me with a gun.

guns dont deter crime, it makes it worse.

[Phantom]

What if someone attacks you with a knife or a bat?
lol kinda defeats the purpose of not having guns.
I HIGHLY doubt you carry around a bat or similar weapon and would be able to fight toe to toe with a criminal.
If someone breaks into your house at night your dead your defenseless.
Guns deter crime that is a FACT allow me to bring up some graphs.
Basically in the US states that banned guns crime went up.
States that didn't Ban guns, the crime stayed the same or went down.
Read my example about if all women had guns.
If you have a gun that doesn't mean you are going to walk down your street and start killing people LOL that is the most stupid argument that I hear from anti gun people.
The argument about shooting your relative is also null.
This is why we have gun safety.
If someone breaks into MY house, you bet they are going to get shot.
If I didn't have a gun I would be at the mercy of them, they could possibly kill me with a knife or whatever they have.
Police are useless they take way to long to show up.
You CAN'T be serious that your police doesn't have guns!
Wow they must get the shit kicked out of them by anybody that has an illegal gun or a fricken bat.

[redcar]

i am deadly serious we have an unarmed police force, and you give me all these examples of crime going down. i just look at Ireland, guns are very hard to get hold of and we dont have a massive crime rate.

just as a side note, if someone were to attack me i would use my knowledge of karate to defend myself and also my 26 inch telescopic steel baton which i so happen to keep in my bag. and if someone were to attack me in my home god help them, i have thing for knives so wouldnt be the most intelligent thing to come into my house without an invitation.

[Phantom]

i am deadly serious we have an unarmed police force, and you give me all these examples of crime going down. i just look at Ireland, guns are very hard to get hold of and we dont have a massive crime rate.

just as a side note, if someone were to attack me i would use my knowledge of karate to defend myself and also my 26 inch telescopic steel baton which i so happen to keep in my bag. and if someone were to attack me in my home god help them, i have thing for knives so wouldnt be the most intelligent thing to come into my house without an invitation.
Ok I will find the graphs.
Ok alex your what 17. You would get your ass kicked.
No offense but you could not stand up to a fully grown man.
Knives will do you no good. You would have to fight toe to toe.
Karate? Don't make me laugh. Steel baton, lol dosn't help you if the guy has a bat which is a very common weapon.
And besides guns are fun to shoot and people hunt with them ( I don't because I don't like to shoot animals)

[redcar]

no i am 19. i am also 6'1 and i would have generally the build of a rugby player. i would personally consider myself as fully grown a man as i am going to get.

i am pretty good at taking someone down, and a baton is just as good as bat. its the same standard as some police forces carry. a tactical strike would break bones even kill.

guns are not fun.

[Phantom]

no i am 19. i am also 6'1 and i would have generally the build of a rugby player. i would personally consider myself as fully grown a man as i am going to get.

i am pretty good at taking someone down, and a baton is just as good as bat. its the same standard as some police forces carry. a tactical strike would break bones even kill.

guns are not fun.So I suppose you would rather fight toe to toe than just shoot the guy?
What if there was more than one?
Well that defeats that argument.
Here's some nice info. I am going to find more
http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2005_07_01_gunwatch_archive.html

[redcar]

i wouldnt want to shoot anyone, because there is a greater chance you would kill them.

if there is more than one then i am outnumbered and thats the end of that. a gun really wouldnt make a difference with a lot of people. you just end up getting in more trouble.

as for that info you posted i am not going to read it because it is totally biased.

[Phantom]

LOL its biased!
LOL so they just MADE up those story's!
LOL Alex you amaze me.
O and
you don't look 6'1 with the build of a rugby player, but maybe you are that is not a pic of your whole body.
If you are outnumbered and have a gun you can still defend yourself BECAUSE GUNS HAVE MORE THAN ONE SHOT.
You can hold up to like 20 45 rounds.
Believe me ONE of those giant pieces of lead will put you down HARD.

[redcar]

firstly, i dont want to see a picture of me appearing in any of your posts again.

ok i am sitting down and you only see from about my shoulders up... of course u will be able to tell my height!!!!!

and one of these giant pieces of lead will kill someone as well.

[Phantom]

firstly, i dont want to see a picture of me appearing in any of your posts again.

ok i am sitting down and you only see from about my shoulders up... of course u will be able to tell my height!!!!!

and one of these giant pieces of lead will kill someone as well.?
did I offend you or something?
Still I can almost guarantee you would get your ass kicked, especially if there is more than one guy.
Are you talking about your baton?
I think I would feel more confident with my 45 than a long metal stick :P
If I have a bat and you have a bat its a brawl.
Whoever is stronger and tougher is going to win.
And chances are you are not the stronger tougher one.

[redcar]

i dont like pictures of me so i dont like seeing them in peoples posts.

and i was referring to you saying...
Believe me ONE of those giant pieces of lead will put you down HARD.
and not my baton.

but believe me my baton would put you down hard.

and why do you say that the chances are that i would be the weaker of my attacker?

[Phantom]

i dont like pictures of me so i dont like seeing them in peoples posts.

and i was referring to you saying...

and not my baton.

but believe me my baton would put you down hard.

and why do you say that the chances are that i would be the weaker of my attacker?Dude your 19. I doubt you are going to be able to stand up to a hardened criminal. I am not calling you weak or anything.
Your batton has a reach of what 3.5 feet. You would have to hit them in the head. Your batton travels at about 20 feet per second with a hiting mass of about 2 pounds. A 45 has a range of about 60 yards and travels about 900 feet per second with a hiting weight of about 400 grains and will go into you.
You do the math. Plus a 45 is alot smaller.

[Dante]

Ok lets debate gun laws.
--------------------------------------------
My opinion as I am sure you guys know is we need guns.
I will now explain why with various reasons.
----------------------------------------------------
Guns don't kill people people kill people.
Guns are necessary to defend yourself with.
There are MANY more GOOD people out there than bad people.
Guns WILL NOT stop crime. If somebody wants to kill you they WILL kill you, whether its a knife, baseball bat or whatever.
Criminals will ALWAYS get guns no matter what. Look at Canada. Criminals have tons of guns because they simply don't follow the law and never will.
Yet the civilians in Canada are defenseless.
If good people don't have guns they CANNOT protect themselves.
If somebody broke into your house with either an illegal gun or a knife, if you don't have a gun you basically have to fight them toe to toe.
Did you know guns deter crime? Criminals are more afraid to be shot by the home owner than get caught by the police.
Imagine this. Every woman has a nice little gun that they keep with them at all times and criminals know this.
Do you think there would be any more rape?
I know I would not want to mess with a woman pointing a gun at me.
Well that is just some of my arguments.

Debate away.


I know that whole thing about guns dont kill peope, people kill people...but remember people kill people by using guns.

And I dont remember Guns being necessary to defend oneself, there are many ways to defend yourself.

If there are many more GOOD people than Bad people as you put it, why do we "need" guns?

If someone broke into your house and you just shoot them, you will go to jail. In order to claim self defense the intruder must be coming toward you with the intent to kill or harm.

If Guns dont stop crime, again why do we need a gun? Just to have it?

I like how you use capitals to strengthen your point, and make it seem like fact.

Yes guns can deter crime? But if the crime is deterred tthen isnt the crime eventually stopped? and didnt u say Guns will not stop crime?

Hell yea there would be more rape? If every woman had a gun, do u honestly believe that rape would just vanish? decrease maybe, but it will still happen, even if the woman had a gun

[Phantom]

I know that whole thing about guns dont kill peope, people kill people...but remember people kill people by using guns. I can kill you with a knife (not that I ever would). Whats your point

And I don't remember Guns being necessary to defend oneself, there are many ways to defend yourself. O yes just whip out your fancy baton and go toe to toe with the assailant :rolleyes:

If there are many more GOOD people than Bad people as you put it, why do we "need" guns? Because there will always be criminals. Even if there are more good people than bad.

If someone broke into your house and you just shoot them, you will go to jail. In order to claim self defense the intruder must be coming toward you with the intent to kill or harm. If they have a weapon which they most likely do you can. You could also shoot them when they draw a weapon or try to hurt you.

If Guns dint stop crime, again why do we need a gun? Just to have it? No to protect yourself.
~Dante~ your arguments are making no points and are basically just ramblings.

I like how you use capitals to strengthen your point, and make it seem like fact. Its to emphasis. Some of the stuff I say in my arguments are facts and have been proven.

Yes guns can deter crime? But if the crime is deterred then isn't the crime eventually stopped? and didn't u say Guns will not stop crime?? Guns deter crime FACT. Everybody doesn't have a gun and not all crimes are violence related.

Hell yea there would be more rape? If every woman had a gun, do u honestly believe that rape would just vanish? decrease maybe, but it will still happen, even if the woman had a gunIf every woman had a gun rape would decrease dramatically. How many women would be saved of death or extreme physiological problems simply because anti gun people didn't get their way and take away guns. O and incase you didn't know the first thing Hitler did was take away the peoples guns so they would be easier to take over.

[*Dissident*]

Hunters have the right to hunt. Keep the long rifles and shotguns, they are fine. handguns should be illegal. hgey are hard to aim, you cant hunt with them, their only purpose is killing. Police officers only.

[Phantom]

Handguns are great for home defense and are fun to shoot.

[Dante]

my arguments are making pints, its showing the holes in your agument. You go and put ur views in everything and then call it fact, you constantly do it.

[Phantom]

my arguments are making pints, its showing the holes in your agument. You go and put ur views in everything and then call it fact, you constantly do it.No I don't you really have to read more carefully.
They are not making points, well most of them aren't.
If Guns dint stop crime, again why do we need a gun? Just to have it? This is what I am talking about

[0=]

Guns should be banned. There should be designated hunting areas where you get whatever gun you want when you enter, and you leave it there when you exit, a license should be required to go to said hunting area. Police officers should be armed with bear mace and those club things, and damnit what are they called again, nvm, along with a taser in their car, possibly a beanbag gun. The swat team should have to check out and check in weapons, limited to semi-auto rifles, supersonic sniper rifles, and anti-tank guns for armored vehicles, along with, but not limited to, bear mace, beanbag guns, teargas grenades, tasers, rubber pellet launching guns, and other less-than lethal weaponry, the more harmful of which should only be used when 100% necesarry.

[Phantom]

Guns should be banned. There should be designated hunting areas where you get whatever gun you want when you enter, and you leave it there when you exit, a license should be required to go to said hunting area. Police officers should be armed with bear mace and those club things, and damnit what are they called again, nvm, along with a taser in their car, possibly a beanbag gun. The swat team should have to check out and check in weapons, limited to semi-auto rifles, supersonic sniper rifles, and anti-tank guns for armored vehicles, along with, but not limited to, bear mace, beanbag guns, teargas grenades, tasers, rubber pellet launching guns, and other less-than lethal weaponry, the more harmful of which should only be used when 100% necesarry.Did you read all my arguments in my first post?
What if someone trys to kill you. With a bat, knife or whatever they can get.
What if they break into your house and try to hurt you or your family?
Why should I trust the police of all things to protect me.
Police don't even have a legal obligation to protect you, and they take way to long to be of any help. I will stick to trusting my gun over police thank you very much :)

[0=]

Ever heard of taking some martial arts? If some loser comes up to you with a knife and you're a black belt, you'll kick his ass. Even if you don't take self-defense courses, you have a better chance against some douche with a knife and you with nothing or a knife than a douche with a gun and you have nothing or a knife, you're not carrying a gun everywhere with you, unless you're a police officer.

[Phantom]

Ever heard of taking some martial arts? If some loser comes up to you with a knife and you're a black belt, you'll kick his ass. Even if you don't take self-defense courses, you have a better chance against some douche with a knife and you with nothing or a knife than a douche with a gun and you have nothing or a knife, you're not carrying a gun everywhere with you, unless you're a police officer.Please don't make me laugh.
Ok popo how about you get a black belt.........and I will run at you with a bat :P
Its called a conceal and carry license which I am going to get one when I am 21.
O yeah one other thing. I though it was a liberal thing to protect our civil liberty's and constitution rights? Allow me to find the wilkipedia of it.
Broadly speaking, liberalism emphasizes individual rights and a transparent system of government in which the rights of all citizens are protected
Now I believe we have a constitutional right to bear arms. Perhaps I am wrong.
I am not attacking you at all I am just saying.

[0=]

I don't think that part of the consitution is right, also, how about we get rid of some of the violence in our culture, too? Then you won't have many people doin that. Do you think Columbine would've happened had the kids used baseball bats or knives?

[cmpcmp]

I love Left Logic...
{example}
-we don't need guns because some one crazy might use them!
-WE don't need guns for protection, no one is going to try and hurt you.

-People might do illegal things with guns, so they shouldn't have them
-the people doing illegal things will follow the law and turn their guns in, and not try to get them illegally.
(This discussion (this post) is for America, as that is where I live)
Imagine if you will a couple of things
-What volume of illegal drugs are smuggled across the border every day? Couldn't that easily be guns? (Gun (not yet fired) can't be smelled out by dogs)
-If guns were made illegal, wouldn't their street price go way up? (there is already a market for them in gang areas where it has been shown that any one with a 100 dollars can get one illegally.
------------------------------
What about the numerous cases where people have gotten guns that are currently illegal in America to use for robberies? If they are willing to get illegal guns instead of just going to the gun shop, why wouldn't they get regular gun when all guns are illegal? as an added bonus POPO doesn't want police to have guns? well how easy can it get?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CStUbKJCooA
this clip is against officers with glocks, imagine against officers with bats...
--------------------------
Further imagine (fact)
-Washington DC has the highest murder rate in America
-Washington DC has the strictest gun control policies in America, handguns are completely banned.
-across the river (10 miles away) the murder rate is one tenth of what it is in DC, and the gun laws are much strickter.
----------------------------
From everything that I have read, and all of the facts that I have seen, There is one most meaningfully factor in gun crime, and that is culture.
-Washington DC isn't violent because there are/aren't gun laws, it is violent because there is a culture of gangs and corruption.
-rural areas aren't safe because they have lax gun laws, its because no one wants to use guns on each other.
(look this up if u don't believe)
2 countries on the bottom of the gun death charts are japan and Switzerland.
-Japan has some of the strictest gun laws in the world
-Switzerland requires men of a certain age to keep a fully automatic weapon in their house for militia purposes. (there are a lot of guns in Switzerland)

Sorry if i use the chile, but GUNS DON't KILL PPL, PPL do.
-If the people (say DC) want guns, they will get them
-if the people don't want guns (japan) they won't get them
-If the people want to use them (DC) they will
-If the people don't want to use them (but do have them) then they won't, (switzerland)

It is the basic rule of supply and demand, if there is a demand, then some one will probably supply is (think drugs in America)
------------------------------
-plus the forefathers though it important enough to make the second amendment
-plus it keeps the people with the power, not the gov
-plus it can be used for protection, in response to what every one else has said, the vast majority of the time when someone uses a gun, they show it, or shout that they have it and that is enough to scare the would be crook off. maybe a warning shot to show ur serious. No one has to be killed, and they usually aren't
-------------------------
If any one even thinks about saying suicide in this thread think how far a way the nearest 4+ story building is, (and how easy it would be to dive head first at the ground and sever your spine and die.) or a knife, cabinet full of meds, rat poison? come one give ppl more credit, they are creative.

[Phantom]

I don't think that part of the consitution is right, also, how about we get rid of some of the violence in our culture, too? Then you won't have many people doin that. Do you think Columbine would've happened had the kids used baseball bats or knives?Read cmpcmp's post.
The reason we have that law is to protect us from the government taking over in a fascism. The first thing Hitler did was take away guns so the people would be more easily conquered.
We don't have any more of a violent culture than anybody else.
It is all the fucking gang bangers killing each other over dumb shit.
Columbine would probably still have happened. The kids would have gotten guns if they wanted to. You know in my neighborhood I can find weed at will.
Why would guns be any different.
O yeah and if guns kill people spoons made Rosie o Donald fat, or just replace the Rosie o Donald with a number of things.
Should we take away spoons so people don't get fat?
Its called responsibility its something I believe in as a libertarian.
Should we force everyone to wear a helmet on a motorcycle? No because you are stupid if you don't. Same with guns. Be responsible learn some safety tips, teach your kids about them at an early age and everything will be fine.

[cmpcmp]

Phantom, You definitely understood what I was saying, but the part about gang/mob violence was what I was talking about as culture.
-though it may be a small part that isn't representative of the rest, it is still part of our culture that wants guns to use for crime.
------------------------------------
-Most of the Gun that mobs(like mafia, not so prevalent anymore)/gangs use now are illegal by some kind of gun law, and they are the ones doing most of the gun crime.
-If you take away the guns, from every body
--People wanting to keep them for illegal purposes: like selling them, keeping them for intimidation, or w/e; that kind of a person won't give it back and will buy them on the black market.
--The law abiding citizens that weren't going to use them for wrong (maybe suicide, but should we ban tall buildings?) will give them back and will be defense less while the crooks who the laws were aimed at will retain their weapons.
---------------------------
The question that comes up is....
-Why is Japans gun murder rate so low?
*The answer is culture, not a lack of guns, look at their other crime rates for good indicators....
(all from nationmaster.com)
Assaults per 1000
#43 Japan 0.339272 per 1,000 people
#6 United States 7.56923 per 1,000 people
#7 New Zealand 7.47881 per 1,000 people
#8 United Kingdom 7.45959 per 1,000 people
#9 Canada 7.11834 per 1,000 people

Murders (per capita) by country (total, not only with guns)
#60 Japan 0.00499933 per 1,000 people
#56 Switzerland 0.00921351 per 1,000 people
#46 United Kingdom 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
#24 United States 0.042802 per 1,000 people

Rapes (per capita) by country
#54 Japan 0.017737 per 1,000 people
#9 United States 0.301318 per 1,000 people
#13 United Kingdom 0.142172 per 1,000 people

Robberies (per capita) by country
#8 United Kingdom 1.57433 per 1,000 people
#11 United States 1.38527 per 1,000 people
#57 Japan 0.040599 per 1,000 people
#43 Switzerland 0.290827 per 1,000 people


SO japans just the greatest nation? with no violence?
Suicide
#13 Japan 8.6 per 100,000 people
while lower then the US, compared to its other stats, this is very surprising. So why are there a relatively high amount of suicides? It's because of their culture.
-------------------------
If a culture as a whole isn't violent (japan)(Switzerland) , then taking guns away, or giving them more, really isn't going to have a huge effect on the amount of death.
Same goes for the other way around. If you take the guns away from America, there will still be death and guns, if you leave them be, there will still be guns, and death.

but, In my mind the benefits of having guns legal in America. far outweigh the negative effects.
-Guns mean the people have power
-they mean that people can defend themselves form rioters/criminals.
-It puts fear into not only the gov, but also would be criminals
-hunting (legal hunting) provides tax revenue that rebuilds/protects forests and hunting areas.

[Phantom]

cmpcmp how are you so good at finding all this info lol.
Seriously.
Yeah look at places like what is it either switzerland or finland almost every adult has a FULLY AUTOMATIC weapon. Yet they hardly have any gun deaths.
Yeah I misunderstood you on the whole culture thing.

[Whisper]

cmpcmp how are you so good at finding all this info lol.
Seriously.
Yeah look at places like what is it either switzerland or finland almost every adult has a FULLY AUTOMATIC weapon. Yet they hardly have any gun deaths.
Yeah I misunderstood you on the whole culture thing.

thats because there all trained with them
2yrs in the millitary mandontory
and then you have to go in all the time for practise
and by law you have to have a loaded automatic in ur home incase your called upon

[Phantom]

thats because there all trained with them
2yrs in the millitary mandontory
and then you have to go in all the time for practise
and by law you have to have a loaded automatic in ur home incase your called uponThis is where my whole thing about teaching people and kids about guns comes in. RESPONSIBILITY its a good thing develop it.
Such as in my state we can't even have firecrackers! The liberals banned them! I mean come on responsibility, just because some idiot hurt himself doesn't mean you have to take them away completely.

[Whisper]

u mean like fireworks?

we have them here there sold everywhere you have to be 18 to buy them though
i bought $300 worth with my cousin and brother in law like 2 months ago
we all went out to a lake and set them off (there was like 12 kids and 4 adults) me and blake set them up and lit them while everyone else watched
its allot of fun

[Phantom]

u mean like fireworks?

we have them here there sold everywhere you have to be 18 to buy them though
i bought $300 worth with my cousin and brother in law like 2 months ago
we all went out to a lake and set them off (there was like 12 kids and 4 adults) me and blake set them up and lit them while everyone else watched
its allot of funYeah I am talking about fireworks.
Apparently some idiots in office thought it would be a good idea to ban them just because some dumb f*ck blew his finger off. All well I just drive to the state next to mine a buy a whole bunch then smuggle them back :P

[Whisper]

ya one of them that we got was like "burry 3/4 into ground" we looked around at the EXTREMLY packed dirt/gravel and were like....fuck that we turned the box it came in over and punched it through to hold it up it came out after the second shot like it leaned down and it was dark so we couldnt see and the last one went off and it wizzed right by my head then exploded like 15ft behind me
god that was funny
me and blake were like......WE PLANNED THAT its OKAY were PROFESSIONALS
ya
its allot a fun

[cmpcmp]

popo,

did you not understand my point that they would get guns (to kick ass) anyways, as they would inevitably be very attainable on the black market?

O yea, karate dude
[quotes the matrix]
"Dodge This"

or similarly,
"hit this" (fighting against guy with bat)
"cut this" (guy with knife)

the question is, how fast can you run? and "do you feel lucky, punk"
"make my day"

(too many quotes i know)

[0=]

Hey cmpcmp about the cops, that's why the swat team is there, they can come in if there's a dangerous heavily armed criminal. About society, because our society is so fucking violent, we can't just say ok guy you need to be more responsible, you have to force responsibility, Americans are incredibly irresponsible with everything.

[Phantom]

Hey cmpcmp about the cops, that's why the swat team is there, they can come in if there's a dangerous heavily armed criminal. About society, because our society is so fucking violent, we can't just say ok guy you need to be more responsible, you have to force responsibility, Americans are incredibly irresponsible with everything.It saddens me that you are an American and you also make such gross stereotypes :( about Americans
You have to FORCE responsibility, see that is one way I agree with libertarians or republicans. Forcing people to be responsible is just dumb.
Kinda like the motorcycle helmet law that almost passed here. OUR society is not any more violent than any other! Less so that places like some African country's or like Thailand. Its just the fucking gangs here that give us a bad rep. You should know about that you live in one of the most violent states which JUST SO HAPPENS to have the strictest gun laws :rolleyes:
Do you have any idea how long it takes SWAT to get there? Dude in the California shootout which you should know about because it was in your state, two guys with aks beat the shit out of the cops for like an hour before swat got there.

EDIT* More people die in car accidents than are killed by guns. Debate over :P jk

[Dante]

wait, YOU are saddened about Popo making gross steroetypes. Don't you make stereotypes about liberals and muslims all the time?

[Phantom]

wait, YOU are saddened about Popo making gross steroetypes. Don't you make stereotypes about liberals and muslims all the time?I knew this was coming :rolleyes:
I don't. I just don't bother to type out "the muslim extremists who in no way represent the mostly peacfull group of muslims around the world"
So I just type muslims. When I am talking about liberals I am talking about liberal LEADERSHIP not the standard liberal.

[Dante]

well I think you should make it clearer what you mean ,because when you make statements that muslims are bad or whatever, you have to make sure you say extremists because it sounds like you are generalizing.

[Phantom]

well I think you should make it clearer what you mean ,because when you make statements that muslims are bad or whatever, you have to make sure you say extremists because it sounds like you are generalizing.Ok sorry about that.
I will try to type muslim radicals or whatever now.

[*Dissident*]

you have stereotyped more than just liberal leaders...everytime a liberal makes a post you dont like, you sterotype liberals, etc.

[Phantom]

Um no.
You mean is I say typical liberal garbage? That means that its garbage that mostly all liberals say. I suppose that is stereotyping, but whatever.

[cmpcmp]

Hey cmpcmp about the cops, that's why the swat team is there, they can come in if there's a dangerous heavily armed criminal.
I never said that we shouldn't have a S.W.A.T. team, we should have one.

All that im saying is this, what if 1/25 people had concealed weapons on them? that means when you walk into a bank with 25 people in it, and one of them probably has a gun, but you have no idea who.
-under these circumstances would you rob a bank, or just be less likely to?
--NO one pickpockets at the gun show do they?

-How would the GOV feel about trying to oppress 300 million people if 6 million of them carried guns with them (not to mention the amount of people with guns in their house.
-------------------------------------
[self imposed question] "but if some one defends them selves with a gun, then some one most likely needlessly dies"
-NO, If u have a gun, and you think your in danger, what do you do? shoot a warning shot, and yell that you have a gun, if the criminal is a criminal, and decides not to run, then it was a good thing that you had a gun, cause he/she was gonna try and kill u anyways. But now you have a means to defend your self.
--Once you show that you have a gun no one (even if they have a gun) is going to mess with you unless they are feeling really lucky/crazy, in which case ur better off with a gun than nothing.
-------------------------------------
-criminals are criminals because they don't follow the law
--they aren't going to respect gun laws
---neither are smugglers (in America the Mexican border is easily smuggled over)

[Underage_Thinker]

Weapons, "sigh". Yet another tool that will accelerate the self destitutions of our species, o well i guse once everybody has their fun with their bombs, scuds, m4s, M16s, M9s, Ak47s, mark1s, and so fourth it wont really matter cus will all be dead anyway . But hey every species goes extinct eventually, so fuck the future. Let's have our fun now and worry about that later:) .

[Phantom]

Please this is a thread to discuss gun laws, not to come in and announce your dislike for weapons.

[Hyper]

Please don't make me laugh.
Ok popo how about you get a black belt.........and I will run at you with a bat :P
Its called a conceal and carry license which I am going to get one when I am 21.
O yeah one other thing. I though it was a liberal thing to protect our civil liberty's and constitution rights? Allow me to find the wilkipedia of it.

Now I believe we have a constitutional right to bear arms. Perhaps I am wrong.
I am not attacking you at all I am just saying.

Phantom.. I am not in the mood to argue with you.. But why do you put down martial arts lol.. That bat wont help you at all.. If you'd attack someone who is good at whatever art he/she practices.. Personaly usual Karate, I think is shit.. I practiced Shukokai and so did my uncle and aunts son.. Now to the point.. My uncle once met in the gym 4 kick boxers, 1 was our national champion so they made a bet the 'champ' belived he can easily beat him. My uncle wanted to fight 2 against 1. Of course he won.. See the good martial arts teach you how to 'disable' your opponent effectively and fastly.. If youd run at me with a bat it wouldnt realy help lol

[Phantom]

I am actually quite proficient in martial arts.
Do you know how long it would take you of learning martial arts to be able to successfully defend yourself against a stronger opponent with a bat?
YEARS if its even possible at all.

[0=]

Have you ever heard of pressure points? I know for a fact you're not gonna be feelin well if I hit you in the diaphragm, behind the shoulder blades, in the temples, behind the knee, your shoulder joint from the front, or behind the jaw. It's far easier to disable someone than beat the shit outta them, which is what most forms of martial arts are for. If you're coming at me with a bat like a madman and I get in close and get you in the wrist, I guarantee that you won't be holding that bat for long. Now who's in trouble, the dude who was just disarmed then put in the sleeper hold, or the dude who defended himself. Let's take that same scenario, but I'm some fuck who has no martial arts training, no agility or strength whatsoever, but I have a gun, and some fuck comes at me with a bat, so I blow his brains out, now who's in trouble?

[Phantom]

Have you ever heard of pressure points? I know for a fact you're not gonna be feelin well if I hit you in the diaphragm, behind the shoulder blades, in the temples, behind the knee, your shoulder joint from the front, or behind the jaw. It's far easier to disable someone than beat the shit outta them, which is what most forms of martial arts are for. If you're coming at me with a bat like a madman and I get in close and get you in the wrist, I guarantee that you won't be holding that bat for long. Now who's in trouble, the dude who was just disarmed then put in the sleeper hold, or the dude who defended himself. Let's take that same scenario, but I'm some fuck who has no martial arts training, no agility or strength whatsoever, but I have a gun, and some fuck comes at me with a bat, so I blow his brains out, now who's in trouble?The guy that came at you. This is America not Europe people have the right to defend themselves here.
Yes I know a great deal about pressure points. I have 2 books on them.
Please don't tell me you actually believe you could hit me in a pressure point.
You know how small those are? I am swinging a bat at you and you just magically dodge it get in close and hit me in a pressure point? Sounds realistic no doubt. I would prefer my 45 thank you very much

[0=]

Here's another question, is it fair to the other person? Maybe they were drunk, or maybe they weren't even trying to hurt you, who knows, they're dead.

[Phantom]

Here's another question, is it fair to the other person? Maybe they were drunk, or maybe they weren't even trying to hurt you, who knows, they're dead.Thats why you tell them to stop. If they don't you fire a warning shot. If they continue to try to kill or hurt you or your friends you shoot them, possibly the leg or if they are really violent the chest. Your argument maybe they weren't trying to hurt you just makes ZERO sense. Why would you shoot them if they weren't trying to hurt you?
Your arguments are starting to lose the logic behind them.
popo do you know anything about guns? Or are you like most anti gun people that think a gun is an evil killing machine and don't even know how it works.
I hope you know well enough that if you have a gun you don't go around killing anyone that looks at you funny.

[Hyper]

Lolzorz Phantom.. I or my uncle or my aunts son who we have all learned Shukokai and privately taught by our uncle lol.. ( My uncle was European Champion, 2nd place 2 times 3rd place once.. ) And hes been to the world championships and done pretty well.. Anyway the best kick to use. Is the Maekiri its a straight kick on with your leg and if done perfectly right the person who gets hit wont get up for sure


Besides.. The point stands people will have guns, people will have knives, bats and other dangerous objects even if you make it hard to get guns legaly guns will still be purchased.. And I dont support gun frenzy and shooting anyone who you see popping up into your house. It could be some stupid durnk or some1 who is too pathetic to even hurt you or too scared

[mRojas2000]

I think all fire guns should be destroyed... they haven't done anything but making people richer out of blood, and is destroying our world...

[Phantom]

Lolzorz Phantom.. I or my uncle or my aunts son who we have all learned Shukokai and privately taught by our uncle lol.. ( My uncle was European Champion, 2nd place 2 times 3rd place once.. ) And hes been to the world championships and done pretty well.. Anyway the best kick to use. Is the Maekiri its a straight kick on with your leg and if done perfectly right the person who gets hit wont get up for sure


Besides.. The point stands people will have guns, people will have knives, bats and other dangerous objects even if you make it hard to get guns legaly guns will still be purchased.. And I dont support gun frenzy and shooting anyone who you see popping up into your house. It could be some stupid durnk or some1 who is too pathetic to even hurt you or too scaredAnd how long did it take your uncle to get proficient in martial arts?
I guess you are someone else that isn't educated enough to know that when you have a gun its NOT to be used for randomly killing people. You anti gun people are throwing the same dumb arguments that hold no points.
Think of it this way. I would rather have one and never need it. Than need it and not have it.

[Dante]

why do u say we are anti-gun people, when we are asking for stricter gun control laws? and im sorry but if u were on the street I am sure someone with a baton could take someone with a gun. A person with a gun has to get the gun ready and have precise aim, so before he even fires the gun, he would be pummeled with the baton or bat or whatever.

[Phantom]

why do u say we are anti-gun people, when we are asking for stricter gun control laws? and im sorry but if u were on the street I am sure someone with a baton could take someone with a gun. A person with a gun has to get the gun ready and have precise aim, so before he even fires the gun, he would be pummeled with the baton or bat or whatever.~Dante~ you are so backwards lol.
Don't even TRY to say that someone with a baton could protect themselves against a gun.

If by stricter gun control you mean getting rid of them yes you are anti gun.

[Dante]

if i was walking down the street and u had a gun and i had a baton, i can bash ur brains in before u even get the gun out of its holster...you would have to take it out, turn off safety, aim!. Why do u think there are so many deaths of stray bullets? the gunmen more than likely misses his target.

and do u only hear what u want because it seems that way. I never said stricter gun control laws means getting rid of guns, hell in no way does stricter gun control laws imply getting rid of guns completly

[Phantom]

if i was walking down the street and u had a gun and i had a baton, i can bash ur brains in before u even get the gun out of its holster...you would have to take it out, turn off safety, aim!. Why do u think there are so many deaths of stray bullets? the gunmen more than likely misses his target.

and do u only hear what u want because it seems that way. I never said stricter gun control laws means getting rid of guns, hell in no way does stricter gun control laws imply getting rid of guns completlyGetting rid of guns for citizens or at least handguns is as good as taking them away because they can no longer protect themselves.
I'm not even going to bother arguing over what is better a gun or baton.

[Phantom]

"This year will go down in history. For the first time a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future." Adolf Hitler 1935

[redcar]

whats that quote about? quoting Adolf Hitler to prove your point?!

[Phantom]

Yep. The first thing Hitler did was take away the peoples guns in the name of "safety" then they were defenseless and couldn't resist.

"The beauty of the 2nd amendment is it will not be needed until they try to take it" Thomas Jefferson

[redcar]

oh seriously do you think the Germans would have stopped Hitler if they had guns?!firstly they loved him in the begining he dragged Germany out of the gutters. he made a good country for Germany. the man was loved.

[TheWizard]

Alex is right. They loved him at first.

[Hyper]

And how long did it take your uncle to get proficient in martial arts?
I guess you are someone else that isn't educated enough to know that when you have a gun its NOT to be used for randomly killing people. You anti gun people are throwing the same dumb arguments that hold no points.
Think of it this way. I would rather have one and never need it. Than need it and not have it.

My uncle has practiced now 15 years.. He got the 2nd place at European Championships at 24 which was 10 years after practicing, he got hes first major Junior wins after 2 years of practice. But for results like that you need talent and dedication.

And I never sayd I am totaly against guns, I just sayd I dont support them

[Phantom]

Why Libertarians Support Equal Rights for America's Gun Owners


Libertarians, like other Americans, want to be able to walk city streets safely and be secure in their homes. We also want our Constitutional rights protected, to guard against the erosion of our civil liberties. In particular, Libertarians want to see all people treated equally under the law, as our Constitution requires. America's millions of gun owners are people too.
Law-abiding, responsible citizens do not and should not need to ask anyone's permission or approval to engage in a peaceful activity. Gun ownership, by itself, harms no other person and cannot morally justify criminal penalties.

Constitutional Rights
America's founders fought the Revolutionary War to throw off British tyranny. Most of the revolutionaries owned and used their own guns in that war. After the war, in 1789, the 13 American States adopted the Constitution, creating the federal government. Before ratifying the Constitution, the people demanded a Bill of Rights to prevent our government from depriving them of their liberties as the British had done.

One of the most important protections we have against government tyranny is that we are presumed innocent of any crime until proven guilty, before a jury, in a proper trial.

Gun control advocates would declare all gun owners guilty without trial, simply for owning guns, even though millions of them have never used their guns to harm another person. Such blanket condemnation is immoral, unfair and contrary to the principles on which America was founded.

The Prohibition Lesson
Gun control advocates are much like the prohibitionists of the early 20th Century. By making liquor illegal, they spawned organized crime, caused bloody, violent turf wars and corrupted the criminal justice system. Today's war on drugs has exactly the same results.

Prohibition didn't stop liquor use; the drug laws can't stop drug use. Making gun ownership illegal will not stop gun ownership.

The primary victim of these misguided efforts is the honest citizen whose civil rights are trampled as frustrated legislators and police tighten the screws.

Banning guns will make guns more expensive and give organized crime a great opportunity to make profits in a new black market for weapons. Street violence will increase in new turf wars. Criminals will not give up their guns. But, many law abiding citizens will, leaving them defenseless against armed bandits.

The Right of Self Defense
Libertarians agree with the majority of Americans who believe they have the right to decide how best to protect themselves, their families and their property. Millions of Americans have guns in their homes and sleep more comfortably because of it. Studies show that where gun ownership is illegal, residential burglaries are higher. A man with a gun in his home is no threat to you if you aren't breaking into it.

The police do not provide security in your home, your business or the street. They show up after the crime to take reports and do detective work. The poorer the neighborhood, the riskier it is for peaceful residents.

Only an armed citizenry can be present in sufficient numbers to prevent or deter violent crime before it starts, or to reduce its spread. Interviews with convicted felons indicate that fear of the armed citizen significantly deters crime. A criminal is more likely to be driven off from a particular crime by an armed victim than to be convicted and imprisoned for it. Thus, widespread gun ownership will make neighborhoods safer.

Foolish politicians and police now seek to ban semi-automatic "assault rifles". They ignore the fact that only honest citizens will comply; criminals will still have them. Such a ban will only increase the criminals' ability to victimize the innocent.

Personal Responsibility
Guns are not the problem. They are inanimate objects. Gun control advocates talk as if guns could act on their own, as if human beings cannot control them, so the uncontrollable guns must be banished.

Let us put the responsibility where it belongs, on the owner and user of the gun. If he or she acts responsibly, without attacking others or causing injury negligently, no crime or harm has been done. Leave them in peace. But, if a person commits a crime with a gun, then impose the severest penalties for the injuries done to the victim. Similarly, hold the negligent gun user fully liable for all harm his negligence does to others.

Rather than banning guns, the politicians and the police should encourage gun ownership, as well as education and training programs. A responsible, well-armed and trained citizenry is the best protection against domestic crime and the threat of foreign invasion. America's founders knew that. It is still true today.

[redcar]

Prohibition didn't stop liquor use; the drug laws can't stop drug use. Making gun ownership illegal will not stop gun ownership.

but it drastically reduces the number of gun ownerships. Ireland have very strict gun laws and we dont have a whole heap of guns floating about.

Guns are not the problem.
correct, the problem is society as a whole. the human race as a whole is scared and frightened (aided by the news) so giving people guns is so stupid.

[Phantom]

Banning guns will just turn it into an underground black market sort of deal just like liquor (in prohibition) and drugs. Instead of selling drugs on corners it will be drugs and guns.
Getting rid of them will not reduce them drastically. You forget its not very hard to make a gun in a machine shop.

Well this debate is basically pointless anyway its to late to take them, no criminal would EVER give up his gun. It would cost billions taking them.
I would not give mine up, I would hide them in my house and I am a law abiding citizen. Why would criminals?

[cmpcmp]

heres the problem, I don't know that much about the UK, as I don't live there. But at the rate drugs are smuggled across the border, and the demand for illegal and untraceable guns in America right now, let me lay it out.

-there are 2 types of people that own guns, people that own them to do good (just not bad) and people who own them for bad, (in a gang, hit man, trying to kill someone, or w/e)

-If guns are banned, the law abiding people are going to turn in their guns, because they respect the law
-The people that don't respect the law, aren't going to turn them in, and if they do/are forced to, they will buy them illegally BECAUSE they don't follow the law anyways.

-If i wanted to kill 25 people with a gun i could get one illegally and try and kill them
-If i wanted to defend my self from the guy killing them, I would be Shit out of luck, cuz i returned my gun(s).
-IF i wanted to kill my wife for the insurance money, i could get a gun illegally (think illegal drugs) kill him/her and then get rid of the gun.

the people that follow the law will turn in their guns, but they wouldn't have commit much crime anyways
the people that intend to commit crime will buys illegal guns and do it anyways
-------------
This is very much like what happened during prohibition
-It was intended to do good, just like gun control
--The idea was to get alcohol out of the hands of people who misuse it

SO what happened?
-The people who misused it in the first place had a huge demand for it
-so the black market started smuggling it in like crazy, and the MOB grew in leaps and bounds

so what was the result?
-The people who misused it in the first place were still drinking, the legitimate alcohol business was decimated, and illegal groups were very very well funded

Maybe we will learn from history and legalize pot, and keep guns legal.

[Phantom]

Its funny because the liberals want to Ban guns and legalize pot.
Republicans want to Ban pot and keep guns legal.
I say legalize them both.

[*Dissident*]

Well, i agree. there are many gun sports, like hunting and trap and skeet and many wholesome, non criminal activites that guns can be recreationally used for. But using guns as an insurance policy against government tyranny is stupid. Maybe back in 1776 it wasnt, because everyone had the same kind of guns, but today, a citizan army with 22 rifles and 12 gauge shotguns arent going to stop trained soldiers with tanks and javelin missles and automatic assault rifles. So that arguement is pretty dumb.

Now, Guns dont kill people, People do. I have actually changed my mind somewhat on guns laws from reading this thread. Taking away guns only works if you do 2 drastic things:
A) Change the way a society views viollence. IE: Bad, not entertaining.
B) Take away every single gun on the planet, including recreational guns and military/police guns.

The first option works so much better than the second. The second doesnt work at all. I now realize you cannot just ban all guns. But, what about handguns? Do you go hunting with a 9mm? Shoot trap with a .45? No. The sole purpose of a handgun is for shooting people. They are very, VERY hard to manuvuer and aim in close quarters. You cant defend effectivly with one. You would better be suited to a close range, handheld weapon, such as mace, a stun gun (my pick) or something else that uses immobilization over penetration. Now, you let police officers and soldiers buy guns, but not from any companies. Government produced and funded, so there are no stores to rob, or people to bribe, etc. That way, eventually, the criminals wont have any hand guns, but the police will. Thats just my idea, i dont know all the facts (far from it), im just 15.

[Phantom]

Well its good we both learned something from each other.
I kinda agree. If we changed the culture (more or less got rid of gangs)
there would be almost no crime. Switzerland as my example again.
I disagree with people that say guns themselves kill they don't.
Its the users. With that logic a car is far more dangerous than a gun.
Gun control advocates would declare all gun owners guilty without trial, simply for owning guns, even though millions of them have never used their guns to harm another person. Such blanket condemnation is immoral, unfair and contrary to the principles on which America was founded.

[Dante]

Its funny because the liberals want to Ban guns and legalize pot.
Republicans want to Ban pot and keep guns legal.
I say legalize them both.

Again, liberals dont want to ban guns, they want stricter gun laws. But to you you hear "get rid of all guns.

[Phantom]

Again, liberals dont want to ban guns, they want stricter gun laws. But to you you hear "get rid of all guns.Define "stricter" gun control. What baning handguns and rifles that carry over 5 rounds?
Alot of them want to ban guns completely unless you have tons of licensing and hunt.

[cmpcmp]

because everyone had the same kind of guns, but today, a citizan army with 22 rifles and 12 gauge shotguns arent going to stop trained soldiers with tanks and javelin missles and automatic assault rifles. So that arguement is pretty dumb.

ok, maybe you don't understand the logistics.
-if lets say half of the houses in America have a gun, and half of them refuse to be oppressed, then the army of the oppressors would have to take out 1/4 of the population. wouldn't that be kinda hard to do? blow up 1/4 of the houses? well thats a great country your oppressing there where 1/4 of the houses have been destroyed. Don't you think that the other people would have gotten suspicious when they looked out of their door and say that the neighbors house had been destroyed by a missile.

[DomSoulWraith]

I agree. I personally hate guns. If NO ONE had guns would we need guns? Ya, I know the odds of everyone in the world to not have guns is impossible. Same goes with missles and tanks. My parents think violence in real life comes from violence in video games. I play violent video games all the time and I've only hurt a person intentionally once because he was trying to mug me so I punched him in the bridge of his knows. I hate guns. I love paintball guns and guns in games, but real guns? You'll shoot yourself.

[Phantom]

Do you know anything about them? Have you ever shot one?
Or are you like most people that think they are evil killing machines.

[*Dissident*]

me? yes. I used to be pretty big into shotguns and shooting, and i am a pretty good shot. Ok, cmpcmp, thats not how it would work. It would be something like the war in Iraq now, but in our own country, and none of the "terrorists" (civilians) would have automatic weapons. If it came down to it, we would never be able to defeat the US army. And i doubt that many people would even fight. I mean, i have 2 or 3 guns in my house, but only one person in my house would be able to fight (my dad).

[Phantom]

No I was talking to DomSoulWraith

[cmpcmp]

If all of the military is on the side of the dictator then your basically screwed, but generally if the dictator were to order the military to attack 1/4 of the civilians and kill them they would not do it. On the other hand, if none of the civilians have guns then it is very easy for the GOV to control the people.

Its not logical for the Gov to try and control the people with tanks, it's very difficult (and hugely expensive) to try and demolish every dissidents house and kill them.
In the past (hitler, stalin, etc) usually secret police are employed to keep the people under control, if when ever the police come around they are shot dead with a deer hunting rifle from 100 yards away, then no one is going to be a member of the police for long, and no one will join.

[Makod]

Think about it... if there were no guns then we would use weapons like swords, axes, knives, etc. and fighting with those is about 500 times cooler.

[*Dissident*]

yea...but, there is a difference between knives axes and swords and guns missles and tanks....I mean, can you not see that? Guns will KILL YOU. BAM. DEAD. no chance of medical help. no need for melee range. BOOM. DEAD. CONCRETE. FLOOR.

[Makod]

Sword: Slash, thud, dead.

Axe: Crunch, dead.

Knife: :stab: :stab: :stab: :stab: :stab: :stab: :stab: :stab:..... dead.

Yeah? Just about all weapons are designed to kill.

[Phantom]

yea...but, there is a difference between knives axes and swords and guns missles and tanks....I mean, can you not see that? Guns will KILL YOU. BAM. DEAD. no chance of medical help. no need for melee range. BOOM. DEAD. CONCRETE. FLOOR.lol its not nearly that simple. Getting hit with a 22LR is quite a bit different than getting hit with a .50 cal.
I would rather get shot by a gun that get stabbed with a sword........

Guns are not ultimate killing machines, in combat you have to aim take cover ETC. I bet you or me can survive a shot from anything under a .30 cal to the legs or arms. You would need medical attention but you would definitely live.

[cmpcmp]

IF some one was "a crazy" then all that they would need to do to kill a lot of people would be to drive their car as fast as they could through a street parade, college, campus, etc....

just thought that I would throw that out there.

hit hit hit hit hit hit hit hit (splat) hit hit hit hit hit hit hit, dead dead dead dead dead dead, injured injured injured injured.