Homicide charges when bullying leads to suicide?

[ShyGuyInChicago]

If bullying results in a suicide should the bullies be charged with manslaughter or even murder if they knew the victim was suicidal?

I think murder charges should be filed if the bullies knew the victim was suicidal.

[Jess]

I think so too. the bullies knew he/she was suicidal, and they continued to bully him/her, not caring probably if she/he killed himself/herself

[Korashk]

Absolutely not. The two events are separate from one another.

X bullies Y
Y commits suicide

'Y' made the choice to commit suicide. 'X' did not force 'Y' to commit suicide (conflicting terms I know, but as the reader you should be able to infer what I mean). There are other options 'Y' could have pursued to make 'X' stop as bullying is a form of harassment which can be prosecuted in civil court.

Yes, bullying is bad. However the law shouldn't punish X based on the choices of 'Y' taken without the involvement or coercion of 'X'.

[Sage]

This would just incentivize people to kill themselves because they can get back at so-and-so with a homicide charge.

[Amnesiac]

This would just incentivize people to kill themselves because they can get back at so-and-so with a homicide charge.

Exactly. While the bully should be charged with harassment, it shouldn't go as far as a murder charge. What if someone committed suicide because someone just called them "gay" over Facebook? Don't you think a murder charge would be a gross overreaction?

[ShyGuyInChicago]

Exactly. While the bully should be charged with harassment, it shouldn't go as far as a murder charge. What if someone committed suicide because someone just called them "gay" over Facebook? Don't you think a murder charge would be a gross overreaction?

What about manslaughter in the case of harassment?

[Sage]

Exactly. While the bully should be charged with harassment, it shouldn't go as far as a murder charge. What if someone committed suicide because someone just called them "gay" over Facebook? Don't you think a murder charge would be a gross overreaction?

I think any charge at all would be a gross overreaction. People are responsible for their own actions. People who are bullied to the point of suicide often feel entirely powerless against their bullies, and so any charge at all is an incentive to off themselves.

[Jess]

mmk you guys changed my mind.

[Korashk]

Seriously? Awesome. That rarely happens in the course of debate.

[Amnesiac]

What about manslaughter in the case of harassment?

Still no. Harassment at most. People shouldn't be blamed for another person's weakness. If it was cyberbullying, I wouldn't even raise charges. Physical bullying is really the only type of bullying that merits criminal charges; bad words can easily be ignored. I call it being untrollable.

Seriously? Awesome. That rarely happens in the course of debate.

Yep, people on ROTW (myself included) are notoriously stubborn :P

[ShyGuyInChicago]

Still no. Harassment at most. People shouldn't be blamed for another person's weakness. If it was cyberbullying, I wouldn't even raise charges. Physical bullying is really the only type of bullying that merits criminal charges; bad words can easily be ignored. I call it being untrollable.



Yep, people on ROTW (myself included) are notoriously stubborn :P

OK when it comes to physically bullying leading to suicide can manslaughter charges be reasonable? Or murder charges if the bullies know that the victim is depressed or suicidal? In the latter I don't think that would be unreasonable.

[Amnesiac]

OK when it comes to physically bullying leading to suicide can manslaughter charges be reasonable? Or murder charges if the bullies know that the victim is depressed or suicidal? In the latter I don't think that would be unreasonable.

Legally, I think bullies should only be held accountable for what they do, not what they influence. I believe bullying in the situations you described could, at most, bring very strong harassment and assault charges.

[mranderson]

Its a good idea but 2 things would happen.
1. The case against the said bullies would never hold up in court they would never have enough to charge them
2. The familys suicidal child would try and get any jsutice they could so there would be alot of poeple charged when they werent guilty which can lead to financial troubles for alot of poeple

[Mr. Awesome]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1246284/Teenage-Irish-girl-emigrated-America-hanged-cyber-bullying-torment.html

Have a read of that, do you think that somone who bullies a person and sends them a message saying "go kill yourself" should get away with an im sorry

The nastiness didn't even end there. Her tormentors posted vicious comments on the dead girl's Facebook memorial page.

Having recently moved to the U.S. from Ireland, Prince had been taunted and bullied for several months by at least two separate groups of students at South Hadley High School, reportedly because of disputes with other girls over her brief relationships with a senior high school football player and a second male student. Her aunt had allegedly warned school officials in August 2009, prior to Prince's enrollment at the school, to watch after Prince, as she was "susceptible" to bullying and had been bullied in Ireland.[13]

From Wikipedia,
"On January 14, 2010, after an entire day of harassment and taunting, followed by a final incident in which a student threw a can at her from a passing car as she walked home from school, Prince committed suicide by hanging herself in the stairwell leading to the second floor of the family apartment. Her body was discovered by her 12-year-old sister. After her death, many crude comments about her were posted on her Facebook memorial page, most of which were removed.[15] Her parents chose to have Prince interred in Ireland."

[Amnesiac]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1246284/Teenage-Irish-girl-emigrated-America-hanged-cyber-bullying-torment.html

Have a read of that, do you think that somone who bullies a person and sends them a message saying "go kill yourself" should get away with an im sorry

Yes. I'm sorry, but if you get sent a message, can't you just delete it?

The nastiness didn't even end there. Her tormentors posted vicious comments on the dead girl's Facebook memorial page.

Then make a private group. Public memorial pages are only asking for trolls. Either make it private or don't make one at all, not everyone has compassion, especially when they have the opportunity to be anonymous.

Having recently moved to the U.S. from Ireland, Prince had been taunted and bullied for several months by at least two separate groups of students at South Hadley High School, reportedly because of disputes with other girls over her brief relationships with a senior high school football player and a second male student. Her aunt had allegedly warned school officials in August 2009, prior to Prince's enrollment at the school, to watch after Prince, as she was "susceptible" to bullying and had been bullied in Ireland.[13]

From Wikipedia,
"On January 14, 2010, after an entire day of harassment and taunting, followed by a final incident in which a student threw a can at her from a passing car as she walked home from school, Prince committed suicide by hanging herself in the stairwell leading to the second floor of the family apartment. Her body was discovered by her 12-year-old sister. After her death, many crude comments about her were posted on her Facebook memorial page, most of which were removed.[15] Her parents chose to have Prince interred in Ireland."

The can thing is a criminal offense. However, crude comments are not, however vile they may be. People have the right to say disgusting stuff on the Internet. The people who made these memorial pages could easily make it private. Facebook offers that functionality, and they failed to take advantage of it. Besides, you're not even supposed to make fan pages on Facebook unless you're representing an official organization, that's why Groups exist in the first place.

[Sage]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1246284/Teenage-Irish-girl-emigrated-America-hanged-cyber-bullying-torment.html

Have a read of that, do you think that somone who bullies a person and sends them a message saying "go kill yourself" should get away with an im sorry

The nastiness didn't even end there. Her tormentors posted vicious comments on the dead girl's Facebook memorial page.

Having recently moved to the U.S. from Ireland, Prince had been taunted and bullied for several months by at least two separate groups of students at South Hadley High School, reportedly because of disputes with other girls over her brief relationships with a senior high school football player and a second male student. Her aunt had allegedly warned school officials in August 2009, prior to Prince's enrollment at the school, to watch after Prince, as she was "susceptible" to bullying and had been bullied in Ireland.[13]

From Wikipedia,
"On January 14, 2010, after an entire day of harassment and taunting, followed by a final incident in which a student threw a can at her from a passing car as she walked home from school, Prince committed suicide by hanging herself in the stairwell leading to the second floor of the family apartment. Her body was discovered by her 12-year-old sister. After her death, many crude comments about her were posted on her Facebook memorial page, most of which were removed.[15] Her parents chose to have Prince interred in Ireland."

Emotional arguments ahoy!

[Mr. Awesome]

Yes. I'm sorry, but if you get sent a message, can't you just delete it?


The message explicity told the poor girl to go and KILL HERSELF, she shoud be charged in some way with the death, now im not saying jail time, but it should be placed on her record, it should follow her around for the rest of her life. She told somone she harrassed to go kill herself, Pheobe was physically bullied, mentally bulied, cyber bullied, she had no escape from it, and that is what sent her over the edge, and the girl who sent the message who WAS involved in the bullying should be held accountable


Then make a private group. Public memorial pages are only asking for trolls. Either make it private or don't make one at all, not everyone has compassion, especially when they have the opportunity to be anonymous.


The people who bullied her left derogatory messages about her, i dont care about the trolls because that will happen, but the fact that after all her suffering she decided to end it all, and the little cunts just had to get in another dig, not only do they deserve to be held accountable, they also deserve to BURN IN HELL and the sonner they get there the better

[Sage]

The message explicity told the poor girl to go and KILL HERSELF

Make me a sandwich.

[Amnesiac]

The message explicity told the poor girl to go and KILL HERSELF, she shoud be charged in some way with the death, now im not saying jail time, but it should be placed on her record, it should follow her around for the rest of her life. She told somone she harrassed to go kill herself, Pheobe was physically bullied, mentally bulied, cyber bullied, she had no escape from it, and that is what sent her over the edge, and the girl who sent the message who WAS involved in the bullying should be held accountable

Sure, file charges for harassment. But you can't charge someone with murder just because the person they harassed was mentally compromised enough to commit suicide. Cyberbullying is non-existent anyway, with all of Facebook's privacy controls you can easily evade trolls if you wish.

This is from a purely legal viewpoint. If you told someone to jump in front of a train, and they did, could you be held accountable? No, because it was that person's actions that killed them, not yours.


The people who bullied her left derogatory messages about her, i dont care about the trolls because that will happen, but the fact that after all her suffering she decided to end it all, and the little cunts just had to get in another dig, not only do they deserve to be held accountable, they also deserve to BURN IN HELL and the sonner they get there the better

Okay, so you think they should "burn in hell". Great. That doesn't change the legal ramifications of it. The fact is that the Internet is full of trolls, and if you have the opportunity to use privacy controls to block them out, why not? Yes, they may be disgusting people, but there's only so much they can do, and all of it can be blocked out. They can only be held accountable for what they did (assuming it was illegal and not just cruel), not what they may have influenced.

[nickisadinosaur]

I live like 15 mins from south hadley, so i thought id add my take on all of this.

This event definatly caused uproar across the whole country, but more so arounds here, than say...california.

We had a big meeting at my school about bullying and other legal...crap. And well, the scene looked something like trying to teach astrophysics to a 6 year old. They just didnt care.

I really think that we should be preaching ways in which to deal with bulling, rather than trying to detur it with the same old "scare tactics".

This is definatly a problem that spans all age groups, races, walks of life, etc... And chances of it going away any time soon are, at best, slim to none.

[Sith Lord 13]

It's never one thing that leads to suicide. There are always other factors that contributed to it. It's wrong to hold one person responsible for the actions of another when they were only partly responsible.

[ShyGuyInChicago]

Isn't it possible that such laws could deter bullying?

[Korashk]

I can't find any stats on it, but I'd imagine it would do as good as the death penalty does deterring murder.

[Syvelocin]

A charge of manslaughter or murder is definitely pushing it.

Do I think that they should be punished for a comment like "go kill yourself" to a teen, with it being common knowledge that said teen is suicidal? Hell yes. It has been going on forever, and these kids still get away with that sort of bullying. It's disgusting. Homicide charges though? No.

[ShyGuyInChicago]

OK, if a bullied person kills themselves, should that lead to a harsher punishment to the bullies. Should it be an aggravating factor?

[Amnesiac]

OK, if a bullied person kills themselves, should that lead to a harsher punishment to the bullies. Should it be an aggravating factor?

I don't think, legally, there's such thing as an "aggravating factor". Either they do something directly or they don't.

[ShyGuyInChicago]

I don't think, legally, there's such thing as an "aggravating factor". Either they do something directly or they don't.

I am not sure if you understand what I asked. An aggravating factor is a circumstance that makes a certain crime worse and therefore able to be considered for a harsher punishment. For example, if one kills another person and it is found that the victim was killed in an arson a person can be considered for the death penalty. In the case I asked about, if bully bullies someone and that person commits suicide that can lead to the bully being considered for a harsher punishment than he/she otherwise would.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggravation_(legal_concept)

[Fact]

The message explicity told the poor girl to go and KILL HERSELF, she shoud be charged in some way with the death

deserve to BURN IN HELL and the sonner they get there the better

Go kill yourself.
What are you gonna do? Nothing.

When you do die, I'm going to write insulting things about you.
What are you gonna do? Nothing.

I'm sorry, but that's how I see it.
Phoebe obviously had some issues other than people telling her to "go and die" etc.
If you start charging people for this kind of thing, it would become ridiculous. It's like charging a man who deliberately littered a street for murder/manslaughter, because an old woman came and slipped on it which caused her to crack her skull open and die.
Yes, he directly affected her death.
No, he didn't think it would kill her.

[Sage]

Go kill yourself.
What are you gonna do? Nothing.

When you do die, I'm going to write insulting things about you.
What are you gonna do? Nothing.

I'm sorry, but that's how I see it.
Phoebe obviously had some issues other than people telling her to "go and die" etc.
If you start charging people for this kind of thing, it would become ridiculous. It's like charging a man who deliberately littered a street for murder/manslaughter, because an old woman came and slipped on it which caused her to crack her skull open and die.
Yes, he directly affected her death.
No, he didn't think it would kill her.

I'm not sure if I'd call that direct but otherwise I would agree wholeheartedly.

[Fact]

I'm not sure if I'd call that direct but otherwise I would agree wholeheartedly.

Yeah, it wasn't the best example in the world :P
Thanks ^^

[Fiction]

The bully could already be suffering with a hell of a lot of guilt if that happened. They don't need a criminal record on top of that.
Also there would be consistency. One person could really badly bully someone and because the other person has a nice life otherwise, escape charge because the person did not commit suicide. While another person decides to mildly bully someone who happens to have a terrible life who then commits suicide. it was not totally their fault and they get charged.

[Amnesiac]

I am not sure if you understand what I asked. An aggravating factor is a circumstance that makes a certain crime worse and therefore able to be considered for a harsher punishment. For example, if one kills another person and it is found that the victim was killed in an arson a person can be considered for the death penalty. In the case I asked about, if bully bullies someone and that person commits suicide that can lead to the bully being considered for a harsher punishment than he/she otherwise would.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggravation_(legal_concept)

However, arson and things that are known to directly and commonly cause death can't be compared to bullying. Most bullies don't know the mental state of the person they're bullying. An arsonist knows what he's doing could easily kill someone. Should we blame the bully for the death of someone just because they happened to be suicidal? The most we could charge them with is assault or harassment.

[Tankinx91]

You could go as far as charging the bully with manslaughter on the grounds of depraved indifference. I'm sure there are extenuating circumstances though in some cases..

[ShyGuyInChicago]

However, arson and things that are known to directly and commonly cause death can't be compared to bullying. Most bullies don't know the mental state of the person they're bullying. An arsonist knows what he's doing could easily kill someone. Should we blame the bully for the death of someone just because they happened to be suicidal? The most we could charge them with is assault or harassment.

OK so if a bully's victim kills himself/herself and the bully is charged with assault or harassment, are you saying that the bully should not get a harsher punishment for assault or harassment?

[Amnesiac]

OK so if a bully's victim kills himself/herself and the bully is charged with assault or harassment, are you saying that the bully should not get a harsher punishment for assault or harassment?

Their punishment should be handed down based on how harmful their actions were. They're only responsible for what they did that directly affected their victim. Suicide is a by-product of that harassment and, in most cases, underlying mental problems — not a direct consequence of the bully himself.

[Sogeking]

.
Yes, he directly affected her death.
No, he didn't think it would kill her.

What about a driver who was driving drunk and hits a person and the person dies? When he hit the person, he probably didnt think the person would die at the time.