Homosexuals - Born or Become?

[Death]

This is a debate I always like to see. So, thoughts?

EDIT: I probably should have mentioned on the poll that I want you to pick the response which you think to be the most dominant - not necessarily the only true response (it could be both but one might have a bigger influence).

[Kaius]

I think they're born homosexual, its who they are, not what they've become.

[Harley Quinn]

I know that i personally didn't chose to be gay, because really if i had the choice i probably would have chose to be straight, simply because it would be so much easier. I was born gay and i won't even bother saying that it's hormones are genetics. You don't just wake up one day and think 'i know, i'll be gay' it's not like that, and if it is i doubt that it's for real, more for attention (yes i realise i will get people going 'i don't do it for attention' and shit like that).

[nick]

Well its definitely not what I would choose, and havent been brought up any differently to the rest of my family or anything, so its just how I am. So I voted for "definitely born". Not very keen on saying "Born like it" or "Born with it", makes it seem like a disease.

[Death]

makes it seem like a disease.

I suppose there are actually people who believe that.

Anyway, I've also always thought that they were born, but i don't exactly have strong feelings on it, and I can't say I'm certain. but I've heard people argue that someone's uprbringing can make a difference. As in if someone's father figure never disciplined them and basically wasn't that good, then one is more likely to be homosexual. Makes sense to me, although I'm not sure if I believe it.

Anyway, thankyou for the quick responses, and I'll be looking forward to more views and why it is had.

[Peace God]

In my opinion, its a little bit of both. However, its certain that they dont make a conscious decision to be gay.

[artex]

a disease? well i dont know if it is its fatal for me!!
i voted probably but lean more to definitely tho..
some homo phobes want you to believe its a choice but its WHO you are i feel

[Sogeking]

Whoops I meant to put unsure so count me out?

[Perseus]

You are born gay. It's simple as that. The emotional aspect is what makes you gay. You are physically and mentally attracted guys, which is hard to explain. Just think of how you feel about a girl you like (This is more directed to people who think that you just "turn gay").

[Amnesiac]

Homosexuality is natural, possibly a genetic trait. It is observable in other animal species, which supports this theory.

[Kitty Purry]

I beleive that your born gay :P but certain stuff that happens in your life can alter your sexuality.. Cause i know that if i had the choice to be straight i would :P.

[Mr. Awesome]

I believe that its a bit of both, i believe that a persons upbringing will have an effect on their sexuality, I dont believe that somone chooses to be homsexual. However there is also no "gay gene" so it also makes me think people are not born being homosexual....... bringing me back to a persons upbringing........... I'm confusing myself lol

[Zephyr]

I think it's a bit of both, it's almost like the nature vs. nurture debate.

I don't completely buy into the 'gay gene' theory, but obviously somebody isn't going to wake up one morning and decide, 'I'm homosexual now!".

I do recall hearing something about estrogen exposure while you're in the womb, and how they think it may be linked to homosexuality depending on how much the fetus is exposed to. If I can find the article on it, I'll post it, it was rather interesting.

[dead]

I do recall hearing something about estrogen exposure while you're in the womb, and how they think it may be linked to homosexuality depending on how much the fetus is exposed to. If I can find the article on it, I'll post it, it was rather interesting.

It was put on TV (something talking about that in a documentary type of view). I do not recall who made it and I can't be bothered to go find it.

[Continuum]

Homosexuality is natural, possibly a genetic trait. It is observable in other animal species, which supports this theory.

My Christian Living Teacher once said that, and it's pretty much what I believe in. One 'can't' become gay or bi unless they are already themselves. It's in the blood, and certain instances in life are there to unlock it, or suppress it.

[closed]

I don't think it's chosable, but with growing up the enviroment and the interaction with it causes people to be straight\gay\bi

[Azunite]

you are born with it,
I have never heard of a guy who was gay first and then straight later

[Jess]

I don't really know. I think you are born that way, but...part of me thinks you become it...I don't know

[Haven]

I believe that there are really two things that factor into a persons sexuality, and being born homosexual is one of them. But I also believe that past experiences and situations (life events, etc.) in someones early childhood can also factor into their sexuality later down in life.

[Sith Lord 13]

Both. There both genetic and social aspects.

[mranderson]

I would say its deffinitly born, im not gay, but deffinitly people would not chose to be gay if they had a choice just by the way they would be treated.

[Death]

If it's a bit of both, then doesn't that mean that you can alter traits with which one was born?

By the way, I read an article (http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/science--nature-not-nurture-new-studies-suggest-that-homosexuality-has-a-biological-basis-determined-more-by-genes-and-hormones-than-social-factors-or-psychology-says-sharon-kingman-1555359.html) suggesting that homosexuality is in one's nature; seemed interesting enough.

[ShatteredWings]

If it's a bit of both, then doesn't that mean that you can alter traits with which one was born?
You can.

Bad example, but mental illness has a strong genetic component, but is usually influenced by environment as well. Need to have both.

[Death]

Surely one would be more dominant over the other though. For instance, what percentage of straight people would have been gay had they have had a different uprbringing? And why are children more likely to be gay if they are further from the first child their mother had?

By the way, I found a video thats content puts across a view about homosexuality and its origins (please ignore any anti-Christian edge you might think it has).

LYMjXucTFaM&feature=related

[Fiction]

Definatly born. Cause there are a hell of a lot of people out there who would like to be straight, but aren't.

[Nevermore]

I am unsure because I think it's a bit of both. For example you can experiment and like the other sex better, when you've only like the other or both. However most are probably born.

[DarkHorses]

I chose probably born. It isn't proven that people are born that way, but I'm sure that it's probably the case. I know this because I, and most people I know, would never choose to be gay. You face a lot of discrimination for it, and it can be a hard thing to deal with. Being straight is obviously going to be easier, so who would choose something harder?

[Sith Lord 13]

Need to point something out. Become =/= choice. Your experiences impact your sexuality.

[Death]

^^Exactly. And to clarify myself, by "Become", I was refering to outside influences (i.e. role of the father figure). Homosexuality is obviously not a choice.

[The Joker]

I think it's a bit of both. You can't consciously become gay but I'm sure you can become it unconsciously. Why? In my personal experience, all these factors that are said to make you "become gay" have been accurate in my case, including a strong mother and a lack of a father figure/male role model.

[Korashk]

So you consider yourself as having become gay, Joker? That's actually fairly interesting.

On an unrelated note this is my 100th post. NEeding 100 posts to send PMs is a bit of an odd restriction.

[The Joker]

So you consider yourself as having become gay, Joker? That's actually fairly interesting.

On an unrelated note this is my 100th post. NEeding 100 posts to send PMs is a bit of an odd restriction.

Yes, I do. But I definitely did not consciously become gay/choose to become gay. I'm sure it's possible for some people to be born gay, and it having nothing with their environment, but that's not the case for me.

It's to prevent people coming here just for cybering.

[Korashk]

Yes, I do. But I definitely did not consciously become gay/choose to become gay. I'm sure it's possible for some people to be born gay, and it having nothing with their environment, but that's not the case for me.
I've just never heard of a person becoming gay.

It's to prevent people coming here just for cybering.
I can't imagine how that could be a large enough problem to merit such a large restriction.

[The Joker]

I've just never heard of a person becoming gay.


I can't imagine how that could be a large enough problem to merit such a large restriction.

Well you just have.

A lot of people join this site for the puberty section- tons of horny, sexually confused teens.

[Kaius]

Keep this thread on topic please. This is about sexuality not the pm limit.

[Death]

If others can influence your sexuality, at what age would your sexuality be 'fixed'? Or can your sexuality always slowly change? Because it almost sounds like there's a 'cure' for being gay (not in a literal sense of course).

[The Joker]

If others can influence your sexuality, at what age would your sexuality be 'fixed'? Or can your sexuality always slowly change? Because it almost sounds like there's a 'cure' for being gay (not in a literal sense of course).

Now, that's a question I doubt I could answer. I couldn't tell you that I remember any specific time where my feelings were moulded, but it probably helped that my father became less of a role model for me during puberty, when my sexual feelings really came to the forefront. But, I've always found guys attractive. So I'm sure that it's possible to be born with an inkling of it, and for it to fully form into a full attraction.

[Death]

I suppose that makes sense. But which would you (or anyone else) say would be the most dominant variable?

[Sith Lord 13]

I suppose that makes sense. But which would you (or anyone else) say would be the most dominant variable?

I think it depends on the level of impulse. If we were to disregard ethics, give me any child from birth and I guarantee I can make them gay or straight. Of course it would take a great degree of physical, psychological, and most likely sexual abuse, but through operant conditioning you can make anyone anything. Not without tons of baggage of course, but it's physically possible.

NB: Sadly, I think I have to say this. I AM NOT SUPPORTING, ENCOURAGING, ENDORSING, OR IN ANY OTHER WAY SUGGESTING THIS IS A GOOD IDEA. To state the physical possibility of something =/= we should do said thing.

[Death]

give me any child from birth and I guarantee I can make them gay or straight.
...
it's physically possible.

Could any straight person have been 'made' gay then? Or would there, in reality, be those whose sexuality was 'fixed' from birth? If the former is true, then gays become gays - not born like it.

[NVerson]

Probably born.
B/C i sometimes see people who use to consider themselves as gays but turn out not to be gay after all.
I think these Actually-not-gay people confuse themselves due to external factors, personal experiences, etc.
But Actually-gay people i believe were born gay, just like i believe that i was born bi.

[myskias]

look at it like this. you dont wake up every morning and say "i choose to be straight today"... homosexuals do not wake up every morning and say "i choose to be gay today". IT JUST HAPPENS. i cant believe so many people think that we have the CHOICE to be gay.

If youre straight u cant help it if u get turned on by the opposite sex. it just happens. same thing with gays and lesbians. we cant help it.. it just happens. thus we are BORN gay or lesiban, and our sexuality starts to surface during the teenage years when we are starting to gain a sexual identity. nobody chooses their sexuality. it just happens

[Sith Lord 13]

Could any straight person have been 'made' gay then?

Yes.

Or would there, in reality, be those whose sexuality was 'fixed' from birth? If the former is true, then gays become gays - not born like it.

Not necessarily. One could start as either, and have their identity changed through outside forces.

[Death]

Yes.

How do you know? And how many straight people would accept this?

[Sith Lord 13]

How do you know?

Because humans respond to conditioning.

And how many straight people would accept this?

Any sufficiently educated in psychology.

[Death]

Because humans respond to conditioning.

So I assume that all scientists would agree then?

[Sith Lord 13]

So I assume that all scientists would agree then?

Not necessarily. Not all scientists study psychology, and a few psychologists are complete crackpots, but I'd say a vast majority of psychologists would probably agree with me, though I don't have a source for that.

[TopGear]

I voted incorrectly, didn't read it. Meant to put definitely born.

[Death]

Not necessarily. Not all scientists study psychology, and a few psychologists are complete crackpots, but I'd say a vast majority of psychologists would probably agree with me, though I don't have a source for that.

Are you studying psychology then?

[Sith Lord 13]

Are you studying psychology then?

I have. I was a double major in Psych for a while (I think I'm dropping it due to time constraints.) I plan to study psychiatry in medical school.

[Saturn]

Become.

[ShaneK]

I agree with Sith. I am sure i am only bi-sexual because of the abuse i suffered when i was younger. I only have ever had one willing relationship with a man. I have never had a one night stand or any other sexual act with man. Other than my best friend

[Death]

Become.

Why? How do you know? Where's your justification?

[ShaneK]

I think homosexuality is nature, but nuture can be a big influence.

[Tristin.]

we are born this way, its got to do with all that Xy chromosone stuff lol XD

[Syvelocin]

I definitely don't think that you just decide to be gay, but in my opinion it takes the personality and environment. It's more difficult to say, since different individuals start puberty at different times. My first guy crush was in year 4 even, and my first girl crush was when I was 14/15. I never looked at anyone other than guys prior to that, never once attracted to any other sex (though as a kid before my first guy crush, I had this theory I was a lesbian. I don't know if it counts for anything, but I always include it).

I'm sure environment, life experience, etc., can play a big part in it. Personally, I think so many more people would identify as gay if they let themselves, and they probably don't let themselves because of the way they were raised or the personality they've grown to have.

I wasn't born asexual though. I know the topic is homosexuality, but I think all sexualities apply here. I also think life experience had something to do with my personal attraction to guys, which is quite lacking compared to other sexes.

But really, anyone who actually believes we would just wake up and consciously choose this is unbelievable to me. I am also in favor of the "both" answer that's not on the poll :P

[Amnesiac]

we are born this way, its got to do with all that Xy chromosone stuff lol XD

:rolleyes:

I don't think homosexuality would be a sex-linked trait. It would be interesting to find out what chromosome it's attached to.

[Continuum]

:rolleyes:

I don't think homosexuality would be a sex-linked trait. It would be interesting to find out what chromosome it's attached to.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_n19_v148/ai_17884162/

I haply see a very nice article for thee.

[Amnesiac]

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_n19_v148/ai_17884162/

I haply see a very nice article for thee.

Well, I was wrong :P

[Continuum]

Well, I was wrong :P

Another win for me. :P

[Death]

I am also in favor of the "both" answer that's not on the poll :P

I probably should have mentioned on the poll that I wanted the most dominant (not necessarily the only) factor to be picked.

[Sith Lord 13]

I probably should have mentioned on the poll that I wanted the most dominant (not necessarily the only) factor to be picked.

I think it depends upon the force of impulse. Conditioning can override any genetics, but only in sufficient quantities that vary from person to person.

[Death]

I think it depends upon the force of impulse. Conditioning can override any genetics, but only in sufficient quantities that vary from person to person.

Any genetics? Could include one's hair, eye, or skin colour for instance?

[Sith Lord 13]

Any genetics? Could include one's hair, eye, or skin colour for instance?

I meat in regards to behavior, but indirectly yes. I could make a blonde so detest blondes that she will always dye her hair. I could so convince a man that having blue eyes is important he'll always wear colored contacts. Etc, etc.

[Death]

But how is one's sexuality their behaviour? If you were gay and foul-mouthed, you could decide that you were going to be polite for a day (for whatever reason), but you wouldn't be able to be straight (as in be able to look at the opposite sex and be genuinly turned on) for a day, would you?

[Sith Lord 13]

But how is one's sexuality their behaviour? If you were gay and foul-mouthed, you could decide that you were going to be polite for a day (for whatever reason), but you wouldn't be able to be straight (as in be able to look at the opposite sex and be genuinly turned on) for a day, would you?

Depends upon one's definition of behavior. When I said behavior I meant non physical characteristics.

[Death]

Oh, I see. In that case, I understand. One thing though, if gay people can become straight, why isn't it done (at least very often)?

[Sith Lord 13]

Oh, I see. In that case, I understand. One thing though, if gay people can become straight, why isn't it done (at least very often)?

Because it takes childhood conditioning, and is cruel and sadistic. Most effective means would be repeated and constant ECT and sexual abuse. By the time sexual identity starts to become apparent it's much harder and sometimes impossible to change.

[Death]

Well, that's certainly cleared a few things up, so thanks for the response. And if anyone else has something to say, feel free to say it.

[Theatheist of doom]

Born, I don't understand why anyone would choose to be something so highly predjudiced against

[Sith Lord 13]

For all you people who say you don't get people who would choose it, what about bi- or pan-sexuals who wind up with the same gender?

[lightkun]

I believe it's a little bit of both. In some cases, chemicals and hormones can effect the baby's future behavior. But I do not thin that this makes them gay. I think that it's sort of a nudge in that direction. The rest is up to life experiences that can alter sexuality. I think a lot of it is in the fact that humans also have sex for fun. So if you happen to find sex with the same gender fun, then you are considered gay.

I also think that homosexuality is purely physical, not emotional. Because I think that you can have love for the same gender without being gay.

I am orthodox Christian and yes I do believe that having gay sex is a sin. But personally, I think that it's ok to have attraction to the same sex, because it's only another matter of temptation which we all have. So in short, being gay is not a sin, but acting on that sexuality is. Am I making sense?

[Death]

For all you people who say you don't get people who would choose it, what about bi- or pan-sexuals who wind up with the same gender?

Can you truly get bisexuals though? Even if you do have feelings for both, I find it likely that one would have a greater feeling for one - especially later once they are more sure about theur sexuality.

So if you happen to find sex with the same gender fun, then you are considered gay.

I wouldn't have said that it were about fun, but which you found to sexually turn you on.

I also think that homosexuality is purely physical, not emotional. Because I think that you can have love for the same gender without being gay.

How can your feelings about whom you prefer sexually be physical? It isn't like gay people have a physical anomaly which others don't have.

I am orthodox Christian and yes I do believe that having gay sex is a sin.

Why is it sinful? If God didn't want homosexuality, why make some people that way (or allow it to happen)?

But personally, I think that it's ok to have attraction to the same sex, because it's only another matter of temptation which we all have.

Jesus wouldn't agree with you. He believed that temptation was just as bad as the real thing.

[Sith Lord 13]

Can you truly get bisexuals though? Even if you do have feelings for both, I find it likely that one would have a greater feeling for one - especially later once they are more sure about theur sexuality.

I'd say yes. Even if there's a slight preference, it comes down to the individual. Speaking from personal experience, I'm pan and I'm 20 next week. I feel my sexual identity is established.

How can your feelings about whom you prefer sexually be physical? It isn't like gay people have a physical anomaly which others don't have.

By physical I believe he means physical attraction.

Why is it sinful? If God didn't want homosexuality, why make some people that way (or allow it to happen)?

I'd like to know this too.

Jesus wouldn't agree with you. He believed that temptation was just as bad as the real thing.

Not so much. Even he experienced temptation in the desert. It's not temptation that's the problem, it's what temptation leads you into.

[Death]

Not so much. Even he experienced temptation in the desert. It's not temptation that's the problem, it's what temptation leads you into.

You have a point here, although I was more thinking about the quote (don't remember exactly what it is) where he says that if a man looks at another woman who isn't his married partner and has lustful thoughts but doesn't actually do anything sexual with, it is still adultary. Still, I suppose the bible does change its 'mind' a lot of the time.

[Sith Lord 13]

You have a point here, although I was more thinking about the quote (don't remember exactly what it is) where he says that if a man looks at another woman who isn't his married partner and has lustful thoughts but doesn't actually do anything sexual with, it is still adultary. Still, I suppose the bible does change its 'mind' a lot of the time.

Based on what you said here I'm guessing the idea behind it was that you're not supposed to just fantasize all you want when you have a wife at home.It's not the stray tempting thought that's the problem, it's only wrong when you indulge and follow it.

[lightkun]

Why is it sinful? If God didn't want homosexuality, why make some people that way (or allow it to happen)?

You seem to ignore the fact that humans are born into sin according to the bible. And along with sin is temptation to do it. So basically your asking "why can't god make our decisions for us so we can't sin". I'm not saying it's a sin to be gay, but only a sin to act on it according to my beliefs.

You remind me of an atheist friend of mine. She argued that god didn't exist (and I'm not trying to make you believe anything btw.) her reasoning was that if he did exist, he wouldn't allow sin. But the hole in her logic is that if he didn't, we wouldn't be able to make our own choices in life. We would not have free will and therefore defeats the purpose living and being judged when we die. This is all my opinion, I'm not trying to force this on anyone.

Make sure u guys are reading posts carefully. I've notice some stumbling on words, making a post totally off base when some of you reply. Not just here I mean, everywhere you post I mean.

Temptation is just natural for humans. And it's ok to be tempted, as long as you don't act on it, then you haven't actually done anything wrong (imo) but the lustful thoughts someone mentioned earlier, I think that goes along with sin because it's still unfaithful. Idk how I feel about that actually.

[Death]

You seem to ignore the fact that humans are born into sin according to the bible.

Why is a 5000-year old book of any revelance today? As far as I'm concerned, a baby when born has done nothing wrong. Why the hell would you want to condemn a baby for something that: 1. It hasn't done, and 2. The minority of Christians actually believe in (referring to Adam and Eve here) anyway?

And along with sin is temptation to do it. So basically your asking "why can't god make our decisions for us so we can't sin".

What? I think you've misunderstood me. I dont want our desicions made for us, I'm just saying that I don't see why having homosexual sex is hurting anyone.

You remind me of an atheist friend of mine. She argued that god didn't exist (and I'm not trying to make you believe anything btw.) her reasoning was that if he did exist, he wouldn't allow sin. But the hole in her logic is that if he didn't, we wouldn't be able to make our own choices in life.

No offence, but that sounds a bit far-fetched to me. You are assuming that there is a single good way of living your life. There isn't. There must be plenty of choices one can make which don't involve 'sin'. Why should one follow a 5000-year old book rigidly without thinking for themselves?

but the lustful thoughts someone mentioned earlier, I think that goes along with sin because it's still unfaithful. Idk how I feel about that actually.

The act is unfaithful; people are allowed to think what they like. It's called freedom of thought. But you still haven't explained why homosexuality is wrong yet. You're obviously not hurting anyone by doing it. And don't say that you're hurting God - if he gets upset at something which is obviously natural (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals), then there's no way that he's as good or powerful as people like to think.

[lightkun]

Why is a 5000-year old book of any revelance today? As far as I'm concerned, a baby when born has done nothing wrong. Why the hell would you want to condemn a baby for something that: 1. It hasn't done, and 2. The minority of Christians actually believe in (referring to Adam and Eve here) anyway?

Well that 5000 year old book is relevant to me and I was simply explaining the how the bible describes homosexual sex as sinful. I just thought I would explain a little bit about that because people seem to get their panties in a knot (in general, not just here) over what it says in the bible. I see your point but you missed what I was saying; it's not the babies fault for being born a particular way. It's if the baby chooses to life that particular way.


What? I think you've misunderstood me. I dont want our desicions made for us, I'm just saying that I don't see why having homosexual sex is hurting anyone.

I personally don't have a problem with homosexuals, in fact, I myself am a little bit bi-curious myself. I was only saying that it's considered sinful to have that kind of sex according to many faiths.

No offence, but that sounds a bit far-fetched to me. You are assuming that there is a single good way of living your life. There isn't. There must be plenty of choices one can make which don't involve 'sin'. Why should one follow a 5000-year old book rigidly without thinking for themselves?
I think that you can live however you want. But everyone is going to do "good" things and "bad" things. I'm not saying there is anyone who will live the "right" way. And you keep saying "5000 year old book" like your going to convince me and others not to follow it.

The act is unfaithful; people are allowed to think what they like. It's called freedom of thought. But you still haven't explained why homosexuality is wrong yet. You're obviously not hurting anyone by doing it. And don't say that you're hurting God - if he gets upset at something which is obviously natural (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals), then there's no way that he's as good or powerful as people like to think.
Just like the freedom you have to sin. You can sin all you want. But its looked down upon in the church. I get the sense that you feel the need to fight me on this. There really is no point in trying to prove each other wrong because it's not going to change anyones opinion.

To everyone: I really am not trying to be combative, I am only expressing my opinions.

[lightkun]

Oops. I posted that wrong ( I'm on mobile, it messed me up)

[The Joker]

To everyone: I really am not trying to be combative, I am only expressing my opinions.

This is Ramblings of the Wise. You post your opinion, people pick apart your opinion and try to prove it wrong.

http://a1.phobos.apple.com/us/r1000/028/Purple/79/47/28/mzl.bbktfmlt.320x480-75.jpg

[Perseus]

free will



Wait a second. I thought there was predestination. That's what I learned in Sunday School, buddy. You can't have free will and God know everything. That's called a paradox.

[KylieEatWorld]

I believe everyone has control over their own lives. I think that if someone was not happy with their sexuality they could train themselves psychologically to prefer the other gender or no gender at all. It's more of a preferance thing. Some people like cake, some people like ice cream, some people like cake AND ice cream, and some people dislike both.

[Iceman]

I personally have a theory it depends how you grow up and who you are around

[The Joker]

I personally have a theory it depends how you grow up and who you are around

Then explain it.

I believe everyone has control over their own lives. I think that if someone was not happy with their sexuality they could train themselves psychologically to prefer the other gender or no gender at all

That would take DEEP training. You can't just do that cheaply, it would cost thousands to have that done. You can't change something that is ingrained in your genes like that.

[Amnesiac]

hat would take DEEP training. You can't just do that cheaply, it would cost thousands to have that done. You can't change something that is ingrained in your genes like that.

I agree. Please see figure 1 (an example) below:

http://jaesonma.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/methmanassnyt7.jpg

Figure 1: Ted Haggard

[Death]

I agree. Please see figure 1 (an example) below:
...
Figure 1: Ted Haggard

That genuinly made me laugh, good one!

To everyone: I really am not trying to be combative, I am only expressing my opinions.

Lovely. Now could you 'only' express why you have your opinions (preferably quoting me on my previous post)? Because seriously, I would actually like you to debate with me on this. As The Joker said, this is RotW, isn't it?

[lightkun]

That genuinly made me laugh, good one!



Lovely. Now could you 'only' express why you have your opinions (preferably quoting me on my previous post)? Because seriously, I would actually like you to debate with me on this. As The Joker said, this is RotW, isn't it?

I don't have to argue my opinions. And I won't because it's pointless.

[The Joker]

I don't have to argue my opinions. And I won't because it's pointless.

This is Ramblings of the Wise. You are supposed to argue and debate. It's in the description for ROTW. In exact words, it says "A place to debate...". FUCK.

[Sith Lord 13]

That would take DEEP training. You can't just do that cheaply, it would cost thousands to have that done. You can't change something that is ingrained in your genes like that.

Money, no. Just highly traumatic experiences.

[Death]

I don't have to argue my opinions.

Again, I'm going to have to agree with The Joker on this. If you don't want to justify your beliefs, why are you posting in a debate forum?

And I won't because it's pointless.

Really? I would love to hear how you justify this - especially if you were to address the points I made to you earlier.

Money, no. Just highly traumatic experiences.

Do you think that it would generally be worth it?

[Sith Lord 13]

Do you think that it would generally be worth it?

I believe that orientation doesn't really matter, so no. However, if it's that or die (living in a country like say Saudi Arabia, etc.) then maybe it is.

[The Dark Lord]

I don't have to argue my opinions. And I won't because it's pointless.

Surely posting your opinions in the first place is pointless if you can't justify them.

You seem to ignore the fact that humans are born into sin according to the bible. And along with sin is temptation to do it. So basically your asking "why can't god make our decisions for us so we can't sin". I'm not saying it's a sin to be gay, but only a sin to act on it according to my beliefs.

You remind me of an atheist friend of mine. She argued that god didn't exist (and I'm not trying to make you believe anything btw.) her reasoning was that if he did exist, he wouldn't allow sin. But the hole in her logic is that if he didn't, we wouldn't be able to make our own choices in life. We would not have free will and therefore defeats the purpose living and being judged when we die. This is all my opinion, I'm not trying to force this on anyone.

Make sure u guys are reading posts carefully. I've notice some stumbling on words, making a post totally off base when some of you reply. Not just here I mean, everywhere you post I mean.

Temptation is just natural for humans. And it's ok to be tempted, as long as you don't act on it, then you haven't actually done anything wrong (imo) but the lustful thoughts someone mentioned earlier, I think that goes along with sin because it's still unfaithful. Idk how I feel about that actually.

No, there is nothing wrong with being gay or having gay sex. With reference to your athesist friend, presumably the hole in your logic was that you refused to justify your beliefs

I believe it's a little bit of both. In some cases, chemicals and hormones can effect the baby's future behavior. But I do not thin that this makes them gay. I think that it's sort of a nudge in that direction. The rest is up to life experiences that can alter sexuality. I think a lot of it is in the fact that humans also have sex for fun. So if you happen to find sex with the same gender fun, then you are considered gay.

I also think that homosexuality is purely physical, not emotional. Because I think that you can have love for the same gender without being gay.

I am orthodox Christian and yes I do believe that having gay sex is a sin. But personally, I think that it's ok to have attraction to the same sex, because it's only another matter of temptation which we all have. So in short, being gay is not a sin, but acting on that sexuality is. Am I making sense?

No, the reason your not making any sense is because your post is nonsense. You think that gay people can't love each other. That's neither true nor fair and you have no logical reason to back up your claims

[gay_boy94]

Wait a second. I thought there was predestination. That's what I learned in Sunday School, buddy. You can't have free will and God know everything. That's called a paradox.

that is what I say all the time people say that god chooses your life for you then they turn around and say you have free will to choose how you live so how does that make sense just like how people say god loves everyone but hates gays it's just stupid

[Sith Lord 13]

Can we focus on the question and forget the religion guys?

[lightkun]

Can we focus on the question and forget the religion guys?

Or you can deal with it. :)

[lightkun]

Surely posting your opinions in the first place is pointless if you can't justify them.



No, there is nothing wrong with being gay or having gay sex. With reference to your athesist friend, presumably the hole in your logic was that you refused to justify your beliefs



No, the reason your not making any sense is because your post is nonsense. You think that gay people can't love each other. That's neither true nor fair and you have no logical reason to back up your claims

I never said that. Sex is only physical. Love is emotional. I can love another man without being gay because I might not be attached to him. You guys have to stop and read carefully. And don't tell my what I think. :)

[The Joker]

You seem to ignore the fact that humans are born into sin according to the bible.

So, if my dad was a criminal, I'm born into being a criminal?

And along with sin is temptation to do it. So basically your asking "why can't god make our decisions for us so we can't sin". I'm not saying it's a sin to be gay, but only a sin to act on it according to my beliefs.

Why is it bad to follow your tempations? What's wrong with doing things that you think will feel good?



You remind me of an atheist friend of mine. She argued that god didn't exist (and I'm not trying to make you believe anything btw.) her reasoning was that if he did exist, he wouldn't allow sin. But the hole in her logic is that if he didn't, we wouldn't be able to make our own choices in life. We would not have free will and therefore defeats the purpose living and being judged when we die. This is all my opinion, I'm not trying to force this on anyone.

"Uh hey, I'm Jesus. Worship me, and ONLY ME. But y'know, I'll let you have free will becaues I'm a jackass like that. Because I want you to believe in me, even if there is no proof of my actual existence as an omnipotent being, you should believe me."

Temptation is just natural for humans. And it's ok to be tempted, as long as you don't act on it, then you haven't actually done anything wrong (imo) but the lustful thoughts someone mentioned earlier, I think that goes along with sin because it's still unfaithful. Idk how I feel about that actually.

What's wrong with following your tempations (that aren't illegal)?

[The Ninja]

I could be wrong but i think studies show that homosexual behavior (sorry if that sound insensitive) is also found in animals so im not sure if that proves anything but i thought i would mention it. (and no I am not comparing gays to animals.)

[Sogeking]

I could be wrong but i think studies show that homosexual behavior (sorry if that sound insensitive) is also found in animals so im not sure if that proves anything but i thought i would mention it. (and no I am not comparing gays to animals.)You should'nt compare us to animals. We are not like them. In the animal world you see cannibalism, rape and other acts you wouldn't do as human.

[Amnesiac]

You should'nt compare us to animals. We are not like them. In the animal world you see cannibalism, rape and other acts you wouldn't do as human.

Humans are animals. Literally. Are you arguing that "animals" and "humans" are two separate classes? They aren't, technically, while humans don't share every behavior with animals there are still some behaviors, such as homosexuality, that exist in us as well.

[Sogeking]

I wise talking more like behavior wise. Of course we are structurally like animals.

[Amnesiac]

I wise talking more like behavior wise. Of course we are structurally like animals.

Well, as I said, humans still share many behaviors with their less intelligent animal counterparts. It's not like the human race has advanced so much it's disassociated itself with the animal kingdom completely.

[The Joker]

You should'nt compare us to animals. We are not like them. In the animal world you see cannibalism, rape and other acts you wouldn't do as human.

This post is fail in so many ways. He specifically said he wasn't comparing gays to animals. Also, you seem cannibalism and rape all the time for humans. What are you talking about? Also, rape isn't really possible in the animal world, as there is no way for an animal to really show consent if it isn't sentient.

[KylieEatWorld]

It wouldn't need to cost money or very traumatic experiences. It's just a preference, not a species. A person can grow to like broccoli, change their eye color, and even change their personality. I think sexuality can be changed with determination and perseverance. Some people just don't WANT to change and that's perfectly fine.

[Sith Lord 13]

Or you can deal with it. :)

I'm just trying to get this thread back on topic so it doesn't get locked.

You should'nt compare us to animals. We are not like them. In the animal world you see cannibalism, rape and other acts you wouldn't do as human.

Humans practice cannibalism far more often than animals. Animals don't generally rape, as that concept is virtually exclusive to humans. What other acts are you referring to? The tendency to not murder for fun? Yeah, most non-human animals lack that.

It wouldn't need to cost money or very traumatic experiences. It's just a preference, not a species. A person can grow to like broccoli, change their eye color, and even change their personality. I think sexuality can be changed with determination and perseverance. Some people just don't WANT to change and that's perfectly fine.

The deeper the drive, the harsher the force to change it needs to be. And I'd like to know how a person can change their eye color without colored contacts.

[lightkun]

So, if my dad was a criminal, I'm born into being a criminal?



Why is it bad to follow your tempations? What's wrong with doing things that you think will feel good?





"Uh hey, I'm Jesus. Worship me, and ONLY ME. But y'know, I'll let you have free will becaues I'm a jackass like that. Because I want you to believe in me, even if there is no proof of my actual existence as an omnipotent being, you should believe me."



What's wrong with following your tempations (that aren't illegal)?

1. Ether your trying to misunderstand what I saying, or just fucking stupid

2. All I mean by that is according to to bible, it's sinful.

3. Oh. You know what, I don't believe in Jesus anymore. Just like that. No no no. Fuck you. I don't understand why I am being prosecuted for what I believe in. I don't bash what you believe in and you shouldn't ether. Sorry if my opinions offend you, but you can get the fuck over it. I get the sense that your one of those people that think they are above everyone because of what opinions you have.

[lightkun]

So, if my dad was a criminal, I'm born into being a criminal?



Why is it bad to follow your tempations? What's wrong with doing things that you think will feel good?





"Uh hey, I'm Jesus. Worship me, and ONLY ME. But y'know, I'll let you have free will becaues I'm a jackass like that. Because I want you to believe in me, even if there is no proof of my actual existence as an omnipotent being, you should believe me."



What's wrong with following your tempations (that aren't illegal)?

Also the first thing I said, all I mean is that according to the christen bible, everyone os born into sin. It's impossible to live a sinless life.

This is Ramblings of the Wise. You are supposed to argue and debate. It's in the description for ROTW. In exact words, it says "A place to debate...". FUCK.

To debate. I only throw my opinions out there and if you dont like it then you can http://tapa.tk/mu/18f7e83e-41e0-faf2.jpg

[Amnesiac]

To debate. I only throw my opinions out there and if you dont like it then you can

Debate — a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints: a debate in the Senate on farm price supports.

If you're not going to discuss, please don't come to ROTW. I'm not trying to be hostile, but this isn't a place where you can spew an opinion and run off.

[Jagster]

They are born with it. With each successful male a mother makes, the chances of the youngest being homosexual increases. It can't become possible unless one swears off the opposite sex.

[Sith Lord 13]

They are born with it. With each successful male a mother makes, the chances of the youngest being homosexual increases. It can't become possible unless one swears off the opposite sex.

Do you have anything to back this up?

[The Joker]

2. All I mean by that is according to to bible, it's sinful.

3. Oh. You know what, I don't believe in Jesus anymore. Just like that. No no no. Fuck you. I don't understand why I am being prosecuted for what I believe in. I don't bash what you believe in and you shouldn't ether. Sorry if my opinions offend you, but you can get the fuck over it. I get the sense that your one of those people that think they are above everyone because of what opinions you have.

1. How am I fucking dumb? Original sin is the most retarded idea in the history of the world.

2. Why is it sin? Why should you follow a 2000 year old books views on morality and things like that?

3. Because in this section of the forum, people come to debate/discuss/tear apart each others ideas and opinions. Just because you don't like what I have to say, you don't have to be a whiner about it. No, your opinions don't offend me, I just don't agree with them. It'd be pretty hard for you to bash what I believe in when it comes to religion, because I don't believe in anything.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQtCG36xer-CA-pKiBOZWOR71pmBdhDXRCdI0frMTAiMuhHhCpQMA

[Amnesiac]

3. Oh. You know what, I don't believe in Jesus anymore. Just like that. No no no. Fuck you. I don't understand why I am being prosecuted for what I believe in. I don't bash what you believe in and you shouldn't ether. Sorry if my opinions offend you, but you can get the fuck over it. I get the sense that your one of those people that think they are above everyone because of what opinions you have.

In a debate, religion isn't subject to some special protection. Why is it that the topic of God and the Bible is so off-limits to you religious folk? Like we can't question it? Are you implying that you have some right to come in here and spew your opinions but we can't counter them?

Christians make up a majority of the U.S. population and an enormous chunk of VT's user population. You are in no way being "persecuted".

[Peace God]

Christians make up a majority of the U.S. population and an enormous chunk of VT's user population.
Well if you look at the religion poll they are a minority to Agnostics/Athiests (non-believers).

EDIT: Actually, nvm...that poll is probably biased. I think that a lot of christians dont even enter the thread in order to avoid questioning their beliefs or having someone challenge their belief system.

[Amnesiac]

Well if you look at the religion poll they are a minority to Agnostics/Athiests (non-believers).

EDIT: Actually, nvm...that poll is probably biased. I think that a lot of christians dont even enter the thread in order to avoid questioning their beliefs or having someone challenge their belief system.

Either way, +40% is still a very large portion.

[Peace God]

Either way, +40% is still a very large portion.
This is very true. But i can still see how some christians could feel persecuted or better yet "ganged up" on. Especially considering how rude some of us athiests/agnostics can be on RoTW.

But hey, its not our fault that our logic almost always holds up against religious dogma. :P

[Amnesiac]

This is very true. But i can still see how some christians could feel persecuted or better yet "ganged up" on. Especially considering how rude some of us athiests/agnostics can be on RoTW.

But hey, its not our fault that our logic almost always holds up against religious dogma. :P

Being religious is no excuse to pussy out of a debate. This thread isn't even religious in the first place, what the hell does the genetics of homosexuality have to do with religion? "Hurr, the Bible says gays are bad! I should tell all these people talking about homos about it even though it's not related to their conversation at all!"

Sure, on VT the non-religious may outnumber the religious, but that's not persecution when you live in a country where 85% of the populous believes in God.

[Peace God]

Being religious is no excuse to pussy out of a debate.
Well it's not easy to win a debate when you're wrong. I'm not saying "religion = wrong" but when it comes to things like creationism or trying to justify bigotry and homophobia on a holy book that has been proven to not be infallible, then it doesn't surprise me that they back away from their arguments. Maybe they're just better off shutting up than digging a deeper hole or saying...

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/hs625.snc3/27540_102729369768668_4205_q.jpg "LALALALALA I CANT HEAR YOU!"
Sure, on VT the non-religious may outnumber the religious, but that's not persecution...
I agree it's not really persecution at all. But i can easily see how someone would feel ganged up on when you consider the attitude and disrespect of some of the non-religious people on VT... or when people think they're cool by putting anti-religious quotes in their signatures.

[Amnesiac]

Well it's not easy to win a debate when you're wrong. I'm not saying "religion = wrong" but when it comes to things like creationism or trying to justify bigotry and homophobia on a holy book that has been proven to not be infallible, then it doesn't surprise me that they back away from their arguments. Maybe they're just better off shutting up than digging a deeper hole or saying...

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/hs625.snc3/27540_102729369768668_4205_q.jpg "LALALALALA I CANT HEAR YOU!"

Then why make those arguments in the first place? It's equivalent to trolling, wasting everyone's time.

I agree it's not really persecution at all. But i can easily see how someone would feel ganged up on when you consider the attitude and disrespect of some of the non-religious people on VT... or when people think they're cool by putting anti-religious quotes in their signatures.

Ganged up? I don't think so. Yes, many of us (myself included) hold strong opinions on religion, but we never try and force that onto other people. I don't believe in respect anyway, it doesn't exist. When you go on the Internet, your views will be challenged.

[BOBBY HILL]

"if being gay is a choice you can suck my dick"

-Some celebrity

[Sith Lord 13]

Can we get back on topic guys? This thread has nothing to do with religion.

[Peace God]

Sorry. You're absolutely right. I'll stop.

[Amnesiac]

Can we get back on topic guys? This thread has nothing to do with religion.

That's what I said :P

But yeah. I think that there's a strong probability homosexuality is an inherited trait, partially influenced by environmental factors as well. The evidence certainly isn't diverse or concrete, but it leans in favor of a genetic connection.

[Death]

Also the first thing I said, all I mean is that according to the christen bible, everyone os born into sin. It's impossible to live a sinless life.

For once, you actually say something that is correct. And the reason you can't live a sinless life is because the bible contradicts itself so much, that almost everything is probably 'sinful' to some degree.

To debate. I only throw my opinions out there and if you dont like it then you can...

You really don't get it, do you? It's not your opinions that are the problem (although even that is debatable), it is the fact that you completely refuse to justify them. If I were to say that following Christianity was wrong but refused to justify it, would you be cool with that? Really? So unless you're willing to do what you're supposed to do in a debate forum, I suggest you just stop talking now. Obviously the former (as in simply justifying yourself) is the better option.

They are born with it. With each successful male a mother makes, the chances of the youngest being homosexual increases. It can't become possible unless one swears off the opposite sex.

I read that in an article somewhere (don't remember where) and on a video (believe I posted a link earlier in this thread). Seems quite sound to me.

That's what I said :tongue:

But yeah. I think that there's a strong probability homosexuality is an inherited trait

If it is inherited, doesn't that mean that there would be a 'gay gene'?

EDIT: Actually, nvm...that poll is probably biased. I think that a lot of christians dont even enter the thread in order to avoid questioning their beliefs or having someone challenge their belief system.

How is the poll biased? I never meant to keep Christians out at all. All I asked was what one thinks is the most dominant cause of homosexuality. Even if someone is homophobic (religous or otherwise), they can still have an opinion on it, right?

1. Ether your trying to misunderstand what I saying, or just fucking stupid

There's nothing to understand, because you're not actually saying anything. You're just continuing with your petty and pointless complaining about the fact that people want you to justify what you say in a debate forum.

Oh. You know what, I don't believe in Jesus anymore. Just like that. No no no. Fuck you.

Your sarcastic comments only show that you are probably not mature enough for debate.

I don't understand why I am being prosecuted for what I believe in.

You're not. I don't give a shit about what you believe. All I wanted is some justification instead of you just saying what you wanted and 'laughing at' anyone who asks for it.

Sorry if my opinions offend you, but you can get the fuck over it. I get the sense that your one of those people that think they are above everyone because of what opinions you have.

Again, we don't give a shit about your opinions. We just want you to say why you have them (the whole point of RotW). Get the fuck over that.

[Peace God]

How is the poll biased? I never meant to keep Christians out at all. All I asked was what one thinks is the most dominant cause of homosexuality. Even if someone is homophobic (religous or otherwise), they can still have an opinion on it, right?
I was saying that the results of the "Religion" thread are biased and might not be an accurate representation of VT's beliefs.

[Death]

I was saying that the results of the "Religion" thread are biased and might not be an accurate representation of VT's beliefs.

I've misread you, so I apologise. However, I would like to know exactly why you think that the poll is biased.

[Peace God]

However, I would like to know exactly why you think that the poll is biased.
I think i already stated why. To avoid going off topic again, VM/PM me if you want me to elaborate.

[lightkun]

In a debate, religion isn't subject to some special protection. Why is it that the topic of God and the Bible is so off-limits to you religious folk? Like we can't question it? Are you implying that you have some right to come in here and spew your opinions but we can't counter them?

Christians make up a majority of the U.S. population and an enormous chunk of VT's user population. You are in no way being "persecuted".

I'm not saying it's unreasonable to question god. But That other guy was mocking god and it pissed me off. Do not assume you know what I'm thinking. Because you don't. Yea you can counter them. But in case some of you guys didn't know, mocking religion may give reason for someone to get pissed off.

[lightkun]

1. How am I fucking dumb? Original sin is the most retarded idea in the history of the world.

2. Why is it sin? Why should you follow a 2000 year old books views on morality and things like that?

3. Because in this section of the forum, people come to debate/discuss/tear apart each others ideas and opinions. Just because you don't like what I have to say, you don't have to be a whiner about it. No, your opinions don't offend me, I just don't agree with them. It'd be pretty hard for you to bash what I believe in when it comes to religion, because I don't believe in anything.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQtCG36xer-CA-pKiBOZWOR71pmBdhDXRCdI0frMTAiMuhHhCpQMA

Mocking god is something I take seriously. Don't use that to make me look like I'm just going to be ignorant to other opinions.

[Amnesiac]

I'm not saying it's unreasonable to question god. But That other guy was mocking god and it pissed me off. Do not assume you know what I'm thinking. Because you don't. Yea you can counter them. But in case some of you guys didn't know, mocking religion may give reason for someone to get pissed off.

Meh, there's really no reason to get all worked up over what someone says about God. It's not like you or God are being hurt by this "mocking", just chill. Everyone's entitled to their opinions; if their posts are written in a tone you consider hostile just ignore it and respond.

If it is inherited, doesn't that mean that there would be a 'gay gene'?

Possibly. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#Chromosome_linkage_studies)

[Sith Lord 13]

Mocking god is something I take seriously. Don't use that to make me look like I'm just going to be ignorant to other opinions.

Can we get back on topic please? This thread has nothing to do with God.

[The Joker]

Mocking god is something I take seriously. Don't use that to make me look like I'm just going to be ignorant to other opinions.

Mocking "God" isn't something I take seriously, so no, I don't get where you're coming from.

[Death]

I'm not saying it's unreasonable to question god. But That other guy was mocking god and it pissed me off. Do not assume you know what I'm thinking. Because you don't. Yea you can counter them. But in case some of you guys didn't know, mocking religion may give reason for someone to get pissed off.

No-one has truly mocked your god. You need to learn the difference between a mockery and a counter-argument. Now, as Sith Lord 13 said, this is off-topic, so unless you're going to tell us about the reasons behind your views about homosexuality, you may as well stop talking.

Possibly. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation#Chromosome_linkage_studies)

So if people made clones (ignoring the ethics behind it), they could be engineered to be straight (or possibly gay) only? Regardless, do you personally buy the theory?

[Amnesiac]

So if people made clones (ignoring the ethics behind it), they could be engineered to be straight (or possibly gay) only? Regardless, do you personally buy the theory?

Possibly.

Personally, I think there is evidence (which I linked to) showing a genetic trait that's possibly linked to homosexuality. Nothing's confirmed, but there are signs. I lean towards the idea of a genetic trait, however I don't fully endorse it.

[smitty35]

its definaltely a become thing. you cant be born like that, though you can be raised in a gay environment.

[Preacher]

why ask this when it's been proven that people are born gay? ^^

[The Joker]

its definaltely a become thing. you cant be born like that, though you can be raised in a gay environment.

Do you have any sort of source/proof of your statement, or are you just going to blindly say something? How is it "definitely a become thing"?

[Kiko]

I found this really interesting so I've been researching lately. It kind of stinks that funding research for "gay" genes is so controversial and so it's not usually done. I think that it is genetic just because there's some evidence for homosexuality in genes and next to none for homosexuality being part of upbringing environments. I think it would make more sense if it was genetic since being homosexual is so contrary to nature (Not meaning to offend anyone but you can't reproduce and pass on genes to someone of the same sex.) and so I doubt it would be possible to CHOOSE to be homosexual.

Source (http://discovermagazine.com/2007/jun/born-gay)

[joe-wjc-mitchell]

Psychologically, the fact of people being/becoming 'gay' would be due to the influences and environmental conditions of which their bought up in or surrounded/immersed by. the gene itself is non-existent, profound into the public eye via the media.
Consciously, i believe people can attempt to convert from gay-not gay. but the subconscious influence remains, and it is that subconscious that is effect by minor things said, taught and seen via the environment.

[Death]

its definaltely a become thing. you cant be born like that, though you can be raised in a gay environment.

What do you mean by a 'gay environment'?

I found this really interesting so I've been researching lately. It kind of stinks that funding research for "gay" genes is so controversial and so it's not usually done.

Controversial? I'd never had guessed. Obviously humanity is even further back than I thought there were.

I think it would make more sense if it was genetic since being homosexual is so contrary to nature (Not meaning to offend anyone but you can't reproduce and pass on genes to someone of the same sex.) and so I doubt it would be possible to CHOOSE to be homosexual.

Even if it were 'contrary to nature', could it still not be something you become, even if it weren't a choice? Besides, I would hardly call it unnatural. Otherwise animals wouldn't do it for pleasure or even love.

Psychologically, the fact of people being/becoming 'gay' would be due to the influences and environmental conditions of which their bought up in or surrounded/immersed by. the gene itself is non-existent, profound into the public eye via the media.
Consciously, i believe people can attempt to convert from gay-not gay. but the subconscious influence remains, and it is that subconscious that is effect by minor things said, taught and seen via the environment.

Coming to think of it, there being a 'gay gene' and homosexuality being something you 'develop' appears to be contradictory. So what you say certainly appears to be plausible.

[Kiko]

Controversial? I'd never had guessed. Obviously humanity is even further back than I thought there were. Even if it were 'contrary to nature', could it still not be something you become, even if it weren't a choice? Besides, I would hardly call it unnatural. Otherwise animals wouldn't do it for pleasure or even love.


It's controversial since most independent medical studies are funded by the National Institution of health and they have a grudge against most sexual studies. I never said that it couldn't be something you become I said that scientific evidence does not support the theory of becoming homosexual at all. Oh, for the record, dolphins are the only animals besides humans that have sex for pleasure, it's not a common natural occurrence like you imply.

[Death]

It's controversial since most independent medical studies are funded by the National Institution of health and they have a grudge against most sexual studies. I never said that it couldn't be something you become I said that scientific evidence does not support the theory of becoming homosexual at all. Oh, for the record, dolphins are the only animals besides humans that have sex for pleasure, it's not a common natural occurrence like you imply.

Maybe 'pleasure' was the incorrect term. But homosexuality is still common throughout certain animals. And I once saw a nature clip explaining a particular type of monkey which could retract its penis to make a hole for other male monkeys to penetrate, which would have to be for pleasure only. I would post a link, but I can't remember where it's located.

[Kiko]

Maybe 'pleasure' was the incorrect term. But homosexuality is still common throughout certain animals. And I once saw a nature clip explaining a particular type of monkey which could retract its penis to make a hole for other male monkeys to penetrate, which would have to be for pleasure only. I would post a link, but I can't remember where it's located.

Homosexual acts does not make someone a homosexual. You can't say that homosexuality, a sexual preference for one of the same sex as yourself, is prevalent in nature because almost all animals will have sex with an animals of the opposite sex before they have sex with an animal of their sex. I don't think there are such things as homosexual animals who only have sex with animals of the same sex and not animals of the other sex. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[Death]

Homosexual acts does not make someone a homosexual. You can't say that homosexuality, a sexual preference for one of the same sex as yourself, is prevalent in nature because almost all animals will have sex with an animals of the opposite sex before they have sex with an animal of their sex. I don't think there are such things as homosexual animals who only have sex with animals of the same sex and not animals of the other sex. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

You are right about homosexual acts not making one homosexual, but I don't see why actual homosexual preferences can't exist in animals (and they can still have sex with the opposite sex, but that wouldn't make them heterosexual), so long as they have sufficient intelligence. Although admittedly, that is rather narrowing down the number of animals.

[Kiko]

You are right about homosexual acts not making one homosexual, but I don't see why actual homosexual preferences can't exist in animals (and they can still have sex with the opposite sex, but that wouldn't make them heterosexual), so long as they have sufficient intelligence. Although admittedly, that is rather narrowing down the number of animals.

I admit it could be possible but it would be nearly impossible to prove. You can't ask an animal whether or not it considers itself to be homosexual.

[Sebastian Michaelis]

I think we become it because we explore and find out what we like but I dont think that we choose it. I feel that we are born that way but don't have those feeling until we become it later in life.

[John Marston]

I believe that you are definitely born gay. I don't think that you can just choose to be gay. Otherwise, people who are gay and want to be straight would just switch sexualities.

[Death]

I think we become it because we explore and find out what we like but I dont think that we choose it.

Is that really becoming it though? Sounds like the second part of what you said, as in you are what you always were, it just wasn't yet taking effect.

I admit it could be possible but it would be nearly impossible to prove. You can't ask an animal whether or not it considers itself to be homosexual.

Indeed not, but you can monitor their behaviour. And their behaviour shows homosexual tendencies.

I believe that you are definitely born gay. I don't think that you can just choose to be gay. Otherwise, people who are gay and want to be straight would just switch sexualities.

Try telling some homophobes that.

[Ryhanna]

I think you're born the way you are. You have no say in you're feelings.
I know some gay people who are grossed out by the thought of sex with a person of the opposite sex, and I also know some straight people who can't stand the thought of sex with a person of the same sex. They can't change the way they feel, so they were born that way. It sticks with them for life.

That's not to say that being "born that way" CAN'T change. You could go for years being attracted to the opposite sex, then discover you also like the same sex, or gradually begin to dislike the opposite sex.

[Wicked_Syn]

I believe we are born asexual and that as we progress through our oddesy, we are introduced to subject and matter that makes us who we are.

[PJay]

Homosexuality is natural, possibly a genetic trait. It is observable in other animal species, which supports this theory.

^ This.

There is plenty of conclusive scientific evidence of it, but homophobes are in a huge amount of denial over it and willing to go to amazing lengths to try to convince the world that they are right.

When those types of people start getting involved in science its usually because they would like to get rid of homosexuals by any means, and you head down the road towards eugenics (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Bailey/HBES/Bailey%20on%20homosexuality.htm)and Hitler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics).

There are always some people who claim its a mental condition to be cured, but because this is contrary to available facts phychiatrists have kicked out (usually christian) charlatans who have claimed they have a cure (with no basis other than their own unscientific bigotry), which looks likely to happen again in this case (link). (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/01/17/christian-therapist-may-be-struck-off-for-trying-to-turn-gay-man-straight/), and the British Medical Associate has declared that attempting to do so is harmful.

Personally I think upbringing and environment can make you CAMP (have feminine characteristics, be sensitive and other stereotypes), but that isn't the same as being gay.

[Severus Snape]

I know I was born liking guys. The signs were there early on.

[Modus Operandi]

Personally I believe it is a predetermined trait. Of course, because we don't entirely know how human sexuality WORKS, we can't be sure. But think about this: one doesn't necessarily CHOOSE to be straight, no? So by that logic, how could someone CHOOSE to be gay?

Ok, so that's not the same as become, so here's that argument' refutation: if it was true that one 'becomes' homosexual, then surely there must be a certain upbringing that would produce a gay person. But take this example: siblings are often raised under near-identical premises, and their sexualities do sometimes differ. So, upbringing doesn't seem to determine much at all about sexuality.

[drew.]

I am a sociology major and we studied homosexuality in the home. Normally homosexuals have horrible relationships with their father's or don't have one present. I have a bad relationship with my dad and am gay. I don't think i was born like this.. but i like it.

[Death]

I am a sociology major and we studied homosexuality in the home. Normally homosexuals have horrible relationships with their father's or don't have one present. I have a bad relationship with my dad and am gay. I don't think i was born like this.. but i like it.

Although I do feel that one's sexuality is down to one's personal self, I can't deny that I find it certainly plausible that you have a point. I know several instances where people have 'ended up gay' due to the relationship with the father. Makes one almost think that homosexuality is a behavioural thing, although that also suggests choice, which is nonsense.

I know I was born liking guys. The signs were there early on.

Mind if I ask what sort of signs?

[Perseus]

After learning how Spartan soldiers in ancient Sparta were encouraged to have homosexual relations with the man to their left in phalanx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_the_militaries_of_ancient_Greece), I do believe that it can come out of conditioning. I still believe that you can be born gay, but conditioning probably plays a larger role. Outside factors can probably influence your brain to sway in direction. But I don't know. The brain is hard to understand, and I'm probably making wrong assumptions. :P

[PJay]

After learning how Spartan soldiers in ancient Sparta were encouraged to have homosexual relations with the man to their left in phalanx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_the_militaries_of_ancient_Greece), I do believe that it can come out of conditioning. I still believe that you can be born gay, but conditioning probably plays a larger role. Outside factors can probably influence your brain to sway in direction. But I don't know. The brain is hard to understand, and I'm probably making wrong assumptions. :P

If the polls on this site are a guide, most (statistically) boys would have sex with boys. If thats your only option, and you are in a society where it was a normal and pretty much expected thing for young guys, and you are somewhere between loving gay sex and tolerating it as better than solo, its not surprising they were ok with it. I don't think they were 'turned', I just think they were honest about their sexuality.

[gingeylover14]

i think we are all born with the possibility to like either or both gender but then based on influences in our life and how we grow up wether or not we become straight/bi/gay or asexual

[Bluesman]

Definitely become. I just cannot see how you can argue otherwise... I'm a conservative, was I born that way? I'm straight, was I born that way? I like rock and blues music, was I born that way? I play guitar, was I born that way? The answer to all of them is no... so if I was homosexual why would I be born that way?

[Death]

Definitely become. I just cannot see how you can argue otherwise... I'm a conservative, was I born that way? I'm straight, was I born that way? I like rock and blues music, was I born that way? I play guitar, was I born that way? The answer to all of them is no... so if I was homosexual why would I be born that way?

What you believe and do are different to what you like. Although sometimes your likes do change, and sexuality can do that too in a way. But everyone is still unique in what they like, so in that sense, peoples' sexuality can be influenced at birth simply by who they are. Take ice cream for instance, you either like it or not (or shades in between). That trait is probably influenced simply by who you are (at birth), but can change later on. I'm not saying that homosexuality is exactly like this, but I do believe that there are probably similarities.

[Perseus]

Definitely become. I just cannot see how you can argue otherwise... I'm a conservative, was I born that way? I'm straight, was I born that way? I like rock and blues music, was I born that way? I play guitar, was I born that way? The answer to all of them is no... so if I was homosexual why would I be born that way?

I want you to mentally choose to feel attracted mentally(love) to men. Do it right now.

[Death]

I want you to mentally choose to feel attracted mentally(love) to men. Do it right now.

I wouldn't pay attention to tonaj13567; he simply has contempt toward homosexuals overall.

Back on topic, I watched this youtube video I thought to be somewhat interesting:

sQvX1B7v1Po&feature=related

Thoughts, anyone?

[Magus]

Born. It's all in your fingers (http://www.viewzone.com/fingers.html). I am a fucking idiot. I chose definitely become! Shitz.

[Sogeking]

I want you to mentally choose to feel attracted mentally(love) to men. Do it right now.

I don't think he implied you can change overnight either.

[Death]

I don't think he implied you can change overnight either.

It's not so much that, but he was using irrevelant examples and not really adressing the point.

[Bluesman]

What you believe and do are different to what you like. Although sometimes your likes do change, and sexuality can do that too in a way. But everyone is still unique in what they like, so in that sense, peoples' sexuality can be influenced at birth simply by who they are. Take ice cream for instance, you either like it or not (or shades in between). That trait is probably influenced simply by who you are (at birth), but can change later on. I'm not saying that homosexuality is exactly like this, but I do believe that there are probably similarities.

I think that someone brought up an interesting point earlier too... maybe we are all born asexual and we're just attracted to the ideas of intimacy or sex. As we grow older those preferences are refined by our surroundings. Some people stay asexual, some become bisexual, some become heterosexual, and some become homosexual. I still feel that if someone truly does not want to be gay, then there is no unseen force making them gay. If they want to change, they can. If I really didn't want to be straight and wanted to become gay then I could do that... why shouldn't it work the other way around?

I wouldn't pay attention to tonaj13567; he simply has contempt toward homosexuals overall.


I find it quite annoying that since I don't support homosexuality I have "contempt towards them". Quite frankly I don't give a flying fuck what you are... that's your choice not mine! No I don't support it, no I don't think it's right, but no, I don't have contempt towards them. I don't find them inferior in any way... I just think what they're doing is wrong. That being said, I have gay friends who know how I feel and don't really care... we just don't make a big deal out of it. In the end what you do is your business, not mine. I just have very strong feelings regarding homosexuality and I'm not afraid to say them.

[Death]

I think that someone brought up an interesting point earlier too... maybe we are all born asexual and we're just attracted to the ideas of intimacy or sex. As we grow older those preferences are refined by our surroundings. Some people stay asexual, some become bisexual, some become heterosexual, and some become homosexual. I still feel that if someone truly does not want to be gay, then there is no unseen force making them gay. If they want to change, they can. If I really didn't want to be straight and wanted to become gay then I could do that... why shouldn't it work the other way around?

You think you can change your sexuality just like that? Then why don't gays just turn straight to get away form all the bigotry that low-life half-wits throw at them (i.e. being called wrong or faggots, etc)?

I find it quite annoying that since I don't support homosexuality I have "contempt towards them". Quite frankly I don't give a flying fuck what you are...

I would have thout you'd know, but very well, I'll tell you. In the other thread, you said that gays would burn in Hell. Even if they embraced abstainance. How's that for no contempt and not giving a flying fuck?

Besides, calling someone wrong for who they are seems pretty contempt-driven to me. Saying homosexual sex is wrong may be one thing, but simply being it despite a lack of choice?

[Bluesman]

You think you can change your sexuality just like that? Then why don't gays just turn straight to get away form all the bigotry that low-life half-wits throw at them (i.e. being called wrong or faggots, etc)?



I would have thout you'd know, but very well, I'll tell you. In the other thread, you said that gays would burn in Hell. Even if they embraced abstainance. How's that for no contempt and not giving a flying fuck?

Besides, calling someone wrong for who they are seems pretty contempt-driven to me. Saying homosexual sex is wrong may be one thing, but simply being it despite a lack of choice?

Maybe you can't just turn away from your sexuality, but if a gay person doesn't like people of the same sex then why couldn't they be straight? As I've said, there's no unseen barrier holding them to homosexuality! And even if there's no "choice" I still do not believe that you are born that way. In my opinion your surroundings have more to do with it than anything... just an example: if I'm correct Elton John and David Furnish adopted a son. That kid will grow up with two fathers, so isn't it logical to believe that he will grow up thinking that homosexuality is correct and will be gay?

[PJay]

As I've said, there's no unseen barrier holding them to homosexuality!
You clearly have no clue what you are talking about.


And even if there's no "choice" I still do not believe that you are born that way. In my opinion your surroundings have more to do with it than anything... just an example: if I'm correct Elton John and David Furnish adopted a son. That kid will grow up with two fathers, so isn't it logical to believe that he will grow up thinking that homosexuality is correct and will be gay?

No it isn't logical : you've built a house of cards on a foundation of quicksand and expect us to be impressed at the strength of your argument?

[Perseus]

if I'm correct Elton John and David Furnish adopted a son. That kid will grow up with two fathers, so isn't it logical to believe that he will grow up thinking that homosexuality is correct and will be gay?
No. He will grow up thinking homosexuality is normal and not think it is a wrong, despicable act (or hate it). He will be tolerant of gays, or he will resent them. He won't just turn gay because his parents are.

[Bluesman]

No it isn't logical : you've built a house of cards on a foundation of quicksand and expect us to be impressed at the strength of your argument?

Alright... how isn't that logical? Children are observant of their parents, am I not correct? Early in life they see their parents as almost heroes... they will attempt to copy their parents. Where exactly is my logic flawed!?

You clearly have no clue what you are talking about.


So you are saying that someone cannot change their sexuality under any cirumstances, that they are born with it and it never will change because it can't change?

[austin callahan]

i would have to say...born maybe

[PJay]

Where exactly is my logic flawed!?

From the start. Your argument seems just to be based on belief and opinion without any supporting evidence, then you have made some vast leaps (non sequiturs) that are not logical.


So you are saying that someone cannot change their sexuality under any cirumstances, that they are born with it and it never will change because it can't change?

That is my personal experience and seems to be the consensus of science. What you are suggesting has been dismissed by the UK medical authority and they have kicked out psychiatrists who have claimed to be able to cure it.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk

[Death]

Maybe you can't just turn away from your sexuality, but if a gay person doesn't like people of the same sex then why couldn't they be straight?

For the same reason you can't turn gay or start liking a food you hate or just change your skin colour. No offence, but I'm quite baffled at what you've said. I mean really, if gays could really change like you think, then why don't they? Short answer: they can't.

As I've said, there's no unseen barrier holding them to homosexuality!

Except that they don't fancy the opposite sex? I know Perseus said it earlier, but I want you to look at men and become attracted to them. If you can honestly do that, I might change my mind about the clear fallacy in your answer.

And even if there's no "choice" I still do not believe that you are born that way. In my opinion your surroundings have more to do with it than anything...

Now this might be argueable...

just an example: if I'm correct Elton John and David Furnish adopted a son. That kid will grow up with two fathers, so isn't it logical to believe that he will grow up thinking that homosexuality is correct and will be gay?

..if it weren't for the fact that you assume that people always agree with (or become) what they see. True, people are strongly influenced by their parents, but being homosexual is something quite different and since you don't choose it; I find it unlikely that being brought up like it will be the only real factor in one's sexuality. Remember, there is a difference between general behaviour (i.e. kind, agressive, etc) and one's sexuality. They are not the same.

[Bluesman]

For the same reason you can't turn gay or start liking a food you hate or just change your skin colour. No offence, but I'm quite baffled at what you've said. I mean really, if gays could really change like you think, then why don't they? Short answer: they can't.



Except that they don't fancy the opposite sex? I know Perseus said it earlier, but I want you to look at men and become attracted to them. If you can honestly do that, I might change my mind about the clear fallacy in your answer.



Now this might be argueable...



..if it weren't for the fact that you assume that people always agree with (or become) what they see. True, people are strongly influenced by their parents, but being homosexual is something quite different and since you don't choose it; I find it unlikely that being brought up like it will be the only real factor in one's sexuality. Remember, there is a difference between general behaviour (i.e. kind, agressive, etc) and one's sexuality. They are not the same.

My main point is that I think that someone's overall surroundings are what determines someone's sexuality. Not their genetics, and that they are not born with the trait of homosexuality. I still do think that someone can change their sexuality, but only if they want to. In saying this I mean that if someone is homosexual and they don't want to be or aren't attracted to people of the same sex, then they can change. If they are attracted to people of the same sex, then they can still change, but they have no reason to, so most likely they won't.

[embers]

My main point is that I think that someone's overall surroundings are what determines someone's sexuality. Not their genetics, and that they are not born with the trait of homosexuality. I still do think that someone can change their sexuality, but only if they want to. In saying this I mean that if someone is homosexual and they don't want to be or aren't attracted to people of the same sex, then they can change. If they are attracted to people of the same sex, then they can still change, but they have no reason to, so most likely they won't.

Do you not see the flaws in your own argument? If what you said was true then homosexuals in oppressive countries would just change their sexuality, simple as. But they don't. Why not? Because they can't.

[Perseus]

My main point is that I think that someone's overall surroundings are what determines someone's sexuality. Not their genetics, and that they are not born with the trait of homosexuality. I still do think that someone can change their sexuality, but only if they want to. In saying this I mean that if someone is homosexual and they don't want to be or aren't attracted to people of the same sex, then they can change. If they are attracted to people of the same sex, then they can still change, but they have no reason to, so most likely they won't.

If I am correct, gay guys have more estrogen than straight guys and seem to be more feminine. Of course, this is not all gay guys. But, what I'm trying to say is gay guys have a distinct trait that straight gays have - their voice. Every gay guy I have met has a non masculine voice. Now tell me, do they choose that to? And also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#Etiology

[PJay]

If I am correct, gay guys have more estrogen than straight guys and seem to be more feminine. Of course, this is not all gay guys. But, what I'm trying to say is gay guys have a distinct trait that straight gays have - their voice. Every gay guy I have met has a non masculine voice. Now tell me, do they choose that to? And also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#Etiology


(Puts on Eric Cartman voice ...) "Dude you'll speak like a girl when i've kicked you the nuts :P "

Anyway... no, don't think so. Ironically I happen to think some gay guys get all camp and feminine because of their enviroment / peers / tv etc. Not their sexuality now, just their mannerisms.

I'm not like that, and I'd say its not true for all but a couple of the gay guys I know. Whenever I see a really effeminate lispy gay on TV (usually american) it makes me uncomfortable, because no way am I going to end up like that.

[Perseus]

(Puts on Eric Cartman voice ...) "Dude you'll speak like a girl when i've kicked you the nuts :P "

Anyway... no, don't think so. Ironically I happen to think some gay guys get all camp and feminine because of their enviroment / peers / tv etc. Not their sexuality now, just their mannerisms.


I don't know if that can indirectly influence your voice, though. Such as I live in the South and hear Southern accents a lot (especially when I was young), but I don't have a southern accent. Obviously that isn't affected by my genetics, lol, but I'm just saying. It's not really an accent, the whole stereotypical gay voice.

[Bluesman]

Well I think I'll let you guys argue on this one for awhile... I've made my point and that's all I can do. Have a nice debate!

[Perseus]

Well I think I'll let you guys argue on this one for awhile... I've made my point and that's all I can do. Have a nice debate!

Hey bud, I asked you question, and you didn't answer. Don't dip out because you know you're losing.

[PJay]

Well I think I'll let you guys argue on this one for awhile... I've made my point and that's all I can do. Have a nice debate!

Your point seems to be merely that you posess opinions which as I have already pointed out are at odds with professional medical bodies, as several others have pointed out are inconsistent with observable facts, and thus seem to be nothing other than homophobic nonsense.

[Bluesman]

Hey bud, I asked you question, and you didn't answer. Don't dip out because you know you're losing.

What question? I'll gladly answer it...

[Alaph]

My vote "Probably Become" was the least popular.
Who disagrees with it?

[Perseus]

What question? I'll gladly answer it...

Here you go:
If I am correct, gay guys have more estrogen than straight guys and seem to be more feminine. Of course, this is not all gay guys. But, what I'm trying to say is gay guys have a distinct trait that straight gays have - their voice. Every gay guy I have met has a non masculine voice. Now tell me, do they choose that to? And also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#Etiology

[Bluesman]

Here you go:

Ohhh... I think that pjay1 answered it pretty well. I agree with him that the feminine voice is more of a stereotype, and that it probably comes out of a desire to be feminine. I know plenty of gay guys that don't have a feminine voice... Here's pjay's post so you don't have to go back a page to read it:

(Puts on Eric Cartman voice ...) "Dude you'll speak like a girl when i've kicked you the nuts :P "

Anyway... no, don't think so. Ironically I happen to think some gay guys get all camp and feminine because of their enviroment / peers / tv etc. Not their sexuality now, just their mannerisms.

I'm not like that, and I'd say its not true for all but a couple of the gay guys I know. Whenever I see a really effeminate lispy gay on TV (usually american) it makes me uncomfortable, because no way am I going to end up like that.

[Name]

Def. Born: As a straight person like me and the many others, try to look at it like this.... were we trained or conditioned to like girls or did it just happen?? It just happened, now flip that to the other point of view and voila you have an answer

[Perseus]

Ohhh... I think that pjay1 answered it pretty well. I agree with him that the feminine voice is more of a stereotype, and that it probably comes out of a desire to be feminine. I know plenty of gay guys that don't have a feminine voice... Here's pjay's post so you don't have to go back a page to read it:

You can't just change your voice. And did you read my link?

[Bluesman]

You can't just change your voice. And did you read my link?

I'd disagree... a lot of gay people would probably disagree with that too. The majority of gay people could probably blend in with straight guys and not even notice... they just have a different preference in bed.

Yes I did read your link.

[Perseus]

I'd disagree... a lot of gay people would probably disagree with that too. The majority of gay people could probably blend in with straight guys and not even notice... they just have a different preference in bed.

Yes I did read your link.

It still doesn't account for the population that does have more feminine voices. You can't change the way your voice sounds at whim.

People who grow up in gay homes don't become gay like you said. I just wanted to point that out to you.

[Bluesman]

It still doesn't account for the population that does have more feminine voices. You can't change the way your voice sounds at whim.

People who grow up in gay homes don't become gay like you said. I just wanted to point that out to you.

They don't automatically become gay no, but I'd argue there's a much higher chance that they will become gay.

[embers]

They don't automatically become gay no, but I'd argue there's a much higher chance that they will become gay.

Just like a study showed the more older siblings you have, the more likely you are to be gay. I don't see your point.

[greekboy]

Can I say "develop" instead.

[Perseus]

They don't automatically become gay no, but I'd argue there's a much higher chance that they will become gay.

What?

[dmeek7]

I personally think that they aren't necessarily BORN with it, but the things they become interest in as they grow up, and the people they hang around when they grow up also influences their decision on what they are turned on by.

[Death]

They don't automatically become gay no, but I'd argue there's a much higher chance that they will become gay.

Become gay because of their voice? Or have I misconstrewed you here? You're not being very clear.

But one question I have for you: Do you think that you, if you wanted to, could become gay and genuinly feel attracted to boys? Could you really do that? I know you've been asked this before, but you keep dodging the question, for some 'unfathomable' reason.

[Charleigh]

I dont really know. Im not saying either, incase someone takes offence.

[Lights]

A really difficult question this is.
Half of me thinks I was born gay, and the other (edging a way at me) says I developed into it. I really don't know.
I like WWE & COD for goodness sake, and I don't like clothes shopping for more than a short amount of time. Basically what I'm trying to convey is that I don't really enjoy the things that stereotypical gay people do; which leads me to wonder if I was born this way. I really don't know.

[embers]

Basically what I'm trying to convey is that I don't really enjoy the things that stereotypical gay people do; which leads me to wonder if I was born this way. I really don't know.

Being gay is a sexual preference, not a preference for shopping for clothes over Call of Duty games.

[Lights]

Being gay is a sexual preference, not a preference for shopping for clothes over Call of Duty games.

Hey, I know that. I was just saying I don't think I'm like the gay stereotype which is to go shopping for clothes and sorts. I think I'm like a lot of other boys, except I like boys and don't have that interest in girls.