Jesus' Death

[Death]

You may not be a Christian, but what do (or would) you think about Jesus' crucifixion? Did he show his love to us in the bible? Or did he not? What do you think? And what about God? Was it an act showing God's love? I'd be interested in hearing some opinions here.

[DarkHorses]

I don't believe in Jesus, but I used to. And what always confused me was that God chose to make the world imperfect and to make us sinners. He has the power to do anything, so he definitely had the power to make the world a perfect place and to override evil and make it nonexistent. So essentially God chose to sacrifice his son, he chose for us to be sinners. Yet we're supposed to be sorry that it happened and be eternally remorseful for his death? It's not our fault that God created the world sinful.

[nick]

God chose to show his love and care for us by becoming human so that he could be betrayed by his friends, suffer humiliation and rejection, and finally die in one of the slowest and most agonising ways know to his tormentors at that time.

Was that really the only way to show love and care?

I can't get my head around it.

The story of Christ's passion, death and resurection is incredibly moving and I want to believe and be a Christian. I pray sometime, mainly when friends or family are in difficult situations, I pray for them, never for myself. But belief is hard.

I find it harder to believe that all we have, the universe, our life, the diversity and wonder of nature, is some kind of cosmic accident than that there is some creative force that we might call "God". Like many people (I guess) I often wonder whether anything actually exists or whether the whole thing is just my imagination.

So there we have it, I dont have an answer really. Maybe there cant be an answer, only more questions.

[Death]

Personally, I think it was meaningless, and I'm not just saying that. Jesus' death was meant to relieve us of our sins, or die for us, so that God didn't had to punish us. But if God wanted us to be forgiven, why oh why could he simply not forgive them? Why did he have to exact vengeance on his son? It's just by the sound of it, God just wants to take vengeance, but he cares not to whom.

Also, I've also heard that Jesus' death (coupled with baptism) was meant to wash away our original sin. But why do we have to be accountable for something that our ancestors did? And even then, don't the majority of Christians call that story symbolic and untrue? If so, why did Jesus die for a non-existent sin? Personally, I find it a bit contradictory.

Also, some people call it a sacrifice. But Jesus knew that he was going to rise from the dead three days later, so what was lost? I'd hardly call that a sacrifice, especially seeing that he was supposed to be omnipotent. But then an omnipotent being would have been able to simply forgive our sins, wouldn't he? Anyway, that's how I see it. I'd welcome other opinions if anyone disagrees or thinks what I've said is inaccurate.

I've got a video which tells a story similar to this (and then relates it to religion). I'm not posting it for the comments against religion at the end, but more for the point he makes before hand (so no offense meant by the video's content).

vKgDDglSq2s

[Azunite]

God chose to show his love and care for us by becoming human so that he could be betrayed by his friends, suffer humiliation and rejection, and finally die in one of the slowest and most agonising ways know to his tormentors at that time.

Was that really the only way to show love and care?

I can't get my head around it.

The story of Christ's passion, death and resurection is incredibly moving and I want to believe and be a Christian. I pray sometime, mainly when friends or family are in difficult situations, I pray for them, never for myself. But belief is hard.

I find it harder to believe that all we have, the universe, our life, the diversity and wonder of nature, is some kind of cosmic accident than that there is some creative force that we might call "God". Like many people (I guess) I often wonder whether anything actually exists or whether the whole thing is just my imagination.

So there we have it, I dont have an answer really. Maybe there cant be an answer, only more questions.



Sorry but in my opinion, and maybe quarter of this world's opinion, that is a lie. Jesus is NOT God.
According to our beliefs, God foresaw that Jesus was in danger ( this is several days before his "death" ) therefore he recalled him back to Heaven. The one who was killed was just a decoy which God put there so that people would think that "infidel-Jesus" would leave this world ( infidel-Jesus: I am talking in the perspective or murderers of Jesus )

And when there is little time left for World's end ( Doom Day ) a creature will rise from ground and Jesus will be sent to earth to kill it, therefore he will complete his mission

[scuba steve]

Sorry but in my opinion, and maybe quarter of this world's opinion, that is a lie. Jesus is NOT God.
According to our beliefs, God foresaw that Jesus was in danger ( this is several days before his "death" ) therefore he recalled him back to Heaven. The one who was killed was just a decoy which God put there so that people would think that "infidel-Jesus" would leave this world ( infidel-Jesus: I am talking in the perspective or murderers of Jesus )

And when there is little time left for World's end ( Doom Day ) a creature will rise from ground and Jesus will be sent to earth to kill it, therefore he will complete his mission

All this doom and gloom shit, what nonsense. Plots of how to get the real jesus away and use decoy jesus just sounds way too Greek mythology just makes me think: Fake and gay! and then turning my head to religion: Fake and Gay! Your born, you live, you die, your just another genome trying to survive on this vegetated planet you've mutated to be able to survive on throughout billions of years of evolution. You are small insignificant life form, on a small insignificant planet in the vast space of the universe.


Oh! And Nick... Welcome to the Matrix, your entire being has been turned into this:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2685/4358575519_7527ed9b46_m.jpg

[Azunite]

All this doom and gloom shit, what nonsense. Plots of how to get the real jesus away and use decoy jesus just sounds way too Greek mythology just makes me think: Fake and gay! and then turning my head to religion: Fake and Gay! Your born, you live, you die, your just another genome trying to survive on this vegetated planet you've mutated to be able to survive on throughout billions of years of evolution. You are small insignificant life form, on a small insignificant planet in the vast space of the universe.


Oh! And Nick... Welcome to the Matrix, your entire being has been turned into this:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2685/4358575519_7527ed9b46_m.jpg


So, debating is one thing. Insulting someone's religion is other...

Calum, just one thing. Why do we live, how did we come to live ?

[scuba steve]

So, debating is one thing. Insulting someone's religion is other...

Calum, just one thing. Why do we live, how did we come to live ?

Insulting someones religion no, heated debate, yes. Addmitidly the Fake and gay was a bit harsh, but apart from the culutural aspect of religion i find it to be complete nonsense and stand by origional claims. In my own opinion the world is an accident, I just explained the most plausable result of your own existance and we live for no other reason than the survival of your species.

[nick]

Sorry but in my opinion, and maybe quarter of this world's opinion, that is a lie. Jesus is NOT God.
According to our beliefs, God foresaw that Jesus was in danger ( this is several days before his "death" ) therefore he recalled him back to Heaven. The one who was killed was just a decoy which God put there so that people would think that "infidel-Jesus" would leave this world ( infidel-Jesus: I am talking in the perspective or murderers of Jesus )

And when there is little time left for World's end ( Doom Day ) a creature will rise from ground and Jesus will be sent to earth to kill it, therefore he will complete his mission
I've never heard that theory before, frankly its bizarre and makes no sense at all. The question was asked from a Christian perspective and I answered it in the same way.


Oh! And Nick... Welcome to the Matrix, your entire being has been turned into this:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2685/4358575519_7527ed9b46_m.jpg
You've lost me there, not a very good likeness :D

[scuba steve]

You've lost me there, not a very good likeness :D

you mentioned sometimes pondering whether life was real or not or just your own imagination (i've also thought about this). The Matrix was created in the future in the next century as a computer programme to maintain the sanity of the human mind as the machines plugged you into a mechanical energy harvester realising that the best source of power was not fossil fuels but biological, therefore your entire being has been turned into a power cell, a battery.

[Death]

All this doom and gloom shit, what nonsense. Plots of how to get the real jesus away and use decoy jesus just sounds way too Greek mythology just makes me think: Fake and gay! and then turning my head to religion: Fake and Gay!

What exactly do you mean by this? And about "fake and gay", it's hardly something I expect somebody refuting religion to say.

In my own opinion the world is an accident

Again, what do you mean? Can the world be an accident?

By the way, why do Christians take comfort out of Jesus' death? Not being funny, but it sounds a bit sadistic to me. Why would someone's death to appease a hiIgher power's bloodthirstiness, no matter to whom the harm is done, be considered a good thing? BTW, I'd really like to hear some more Christians' thoughts on this - even if you can refute me (I'd actually like that). Not that I hate Christianity in general, but this is something which has always bugged me about the new testament.

[closed]

I'm an atheist. But I do think that we can learn things from the bible (or any other religious book) if we ignore the preaching. The bible is a set of moral rules, or at least things to think about. And again, if you ignore the preaching it can actually have some value other then justification for wars and torture.
*this is true for MULTIPLY religions.

[Death]

The bible is a set of moral rules

How many of those rules should we look at?

*this is true for MULTIPLY religions.

Hardly surprising; religions can be surprsingly similar nowadays.

[Fact]

To me, religion is just a joke now.
From what I've read/heard from the Bible, it only glorifies the 'evils' in the world e.g. homophobia, sexism, racism, violence, crimes etc. in one way or another.

IMO, People believe in religions because they have nothing else to believe in that they find plausible.
The Bible personifies what it deems to be 'hope'.

Also, the more I learn about religion in this world, the more it angers me. People who aren't religious fight with those who are, and people who are religious fight with people from other religions! It's just gotten to a point where it's doing more harm than good.

[Death]

^^Which is amplified by the fact that people glorify God when he killed his son because he wanted to exact his vengeance on someone for what Adam and Eve did thousands of years ago (and still holds it against us today).

Admittedly, people say that htey now only believe bits of the bible, but they still condtradict each other and it makes following the religion pointless. I think it's like calling yourself an atheist but not following the "god does not exist" part.

[Fact]

^^Which is amplified by the fact that people glorify God when he killed his son because he wanted to exact his vengeance on someone for what Adam and Eve did thousands of years ago (and still holds it against us today).

Admittedly, people say that htey now only believe bits of the bible, but they still condtradict each other and it makes following the religion pointless. I think it's like calling yourself an atheist but not following the "god does not exist" part.

Exactly.
I still think that people can believe what they like, but personally I think that people who turn to religions for comfort have something wrong inside.
I see it like turning to a nursery rhyme or a children's for comfort... Probably because that's how I currently view the Bible.

[Continuum]

Admittedly, people say that htey now only believe bits of the bible, but they still condtradict each other and it makes following the religion pointless. I think it's like calling yourself an atheist but not following the "god does not exist" part.

It doesn't contradict the true meaning of the dogmae though, it still bears allegorical figures that people can learn from.

[Death]

It doesn't contradict the true meaning of the dogmae though, it still bears allegorical figures that people can learn from.

But different information in different places can't always agree with each other. For instance, the order in which creation took place in Genesis is:

Day 1: Sky, Earth, light
Day 2: Water, both in ocean basins and above the sky(!)
Day 3: Plants
Day 4: Sun, Moon, stars (as calendrical and navigational aids)
Day 5: Sea monsters (whales), fish, birds, land animals, creepy-crawlies (reptiles, insects, etc.)
Day 6: Humans (apparently both sexes at the same time)
Day 7: Nothing (the Gods took the first day off anyone ever did)

However, in the second part, it was:

Earth and heavens (misty)
Adam, the first man (on a desolate Earth)
Plants
Animals
Eve, the first woman (from Adam's rib)

This was gotten (and you can find many other contradictions) from here (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#contradictions).

By the way, when you say "learn from", you must be referring only to certain bits of the bible - otherwise people would be 'learning from' the awful bits. That means that people will have to use their own conscience and judgement to know what is right. If they can get good morality out of this, they may as well not use the bible.

[Sith Lord 13]

But different information in different places can't always agree with each other. For instance, the order in which creation took place in Genesis is:

Day 1: Sky, Earth, light
Day 2: Water, both in ocean basins and above the sky(!)
Day 3: Plants
Day 4: Sun, Moon, stars (as calendrical and navigational aids)
Day 5: Sea monsters (whales), fish, birds, land animals, creepy-crawlies (reptiles, insects, etc.)
Day 6: Humans (apparently both sexes at the same time)
Day 7: Nothing (the Gods took the first day off anyone ever did)

However, in the second part, it was:

Earth and heavens (misty)
Adam, the first man (on a desolate Earth)
Plants
Animals
Eve, the first woman (from Adam's rib)

This was gotten (and you can find many other contradictions) from here (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#contradictions).

Those stories are parables. They both use the same setting (formation of the world) to tell non-factual stories to convey religious truths.

[ampdewamp1342]

What Jesus did is indescribable. No other person has shown such meekness in majesty, or had the same beauty and sorrow meet. It's summed up by grace:
God's
Ransom
At
Christ's
Expense

[Death]

Those stories are parables. They both use the same setting (formation of the world) to tell non-factual stories to convey religious truths.

And which religious truths would they be which they actually agree on?

What Jesus did is indescribable.

Why? Why can't you describe it?

No other person has shown such meekness in majesty, or had the same beauty and sorrow meet.

By choosing to get himself killed as a 'sacrifice' (even though he knew he was going to rise anyway meaning that nothing was sacrificed in the first place) to God because he was so vengeful, he wanted to screw someone over for what Adam and Eve did (even though the sheer minority of Christians even believe that story making Jesus' death meaningless)? I hardly think so.

If God wanted to forgive us for being born with sin (which is bullshit, IMO), why not just do it?