Is the E.U. a good thing?

[The Dark Lord]

Personally I think it is wasteful, arrogant and too powerful. What do you think?

[Fiction]

I think it's a good idea. Makes it alot easier to travel around.

[Azunite]

I thought you would start this thread sooner or later Matt

I think it is a total waste of time, it may have proove useful in the past but not now. EU have already lost too much money too feed an economicly dead country, Greece.
Only advantage is Shengen

[The Dark Lord]

I thought you would start this thread sooner or later Matt

I think it is a total waste of time, it may have proove useful in the past but not now. EU have already lost too much money too feed an economicly dead country, Greece.
Only advantage is Shengen

Shengen?

It's not the money spent keeping the Euro alive that bothers me, it's the amount of waste of the MEPs and the immigration laws that destroy state soverignty

[Whisper]

If I was an EU citizen the main concerns I would have would be as you said Matt Sovereignty, immigration, and frankly state security.

But there are allot of advantages to it as well, economically speaking the EU is the largest economy on the planet. Historically speaking Europe loves to beat the shit out of itself, if your all in the same union thats less likely to happen again. Although it does create allot of immigration problems as you've pointed out it also allows for much easier travel and trade for EU citizens.

Thats like having a common currency for most EU nations carries advantages and disadvantages. On the plus side transactions are far easier and you don't lose value if you travel or purchase outside your nation. On the neg side you don't make money on an exchange, and your nation is vulnerable to the inflation and debt of other nations.

On a whole for Europe I think the European Union works very well....so far. But issues of mass immigration and state sovereignty need to be addressed. I also would have a big problem with expanding the EU outside of Europe.


One of the main reasons I am COMPLETELY against a type of Amero currency is because Canada is fiscally responsible, for the longest time we were the only debt free G7 nation, and even now coming out of the recession our debt is minimal. The states and Mexico in comparison have massive debt and inflation. It would destroy our dollar and investment credibility. As it stands right now Canada is receiving considerable foreign investment because our banks and dollar are seen as a "safe haven" so to speak for foreign investors, which is boosting our economy all the more.

[Azunite]

Shengen?It's not the money spent keeping the Euro alive that bothers me, it's the amount of waste of the MEPs and the immigration laws that destroy state soverignty

So sorry, SCHENGEN

[The Dark Lord]

So sorry, SCHENGEN

what's that?

Also this week the EU asked for a 6% rise in their budget, when countries are slashing 20% off gov't departments. It shows a massive misread of public opinion and is simply unacceptable. The helps Britain in terms of trading, however it shouldn't be dictating our laws. I will always be British, never European

[Fact]

No, it's not.

[The Dark Lord]

No, it's not.

Why?

[Fact]

Why?

Without too much depth or detail, I don't see much point in it. For everything it takes from countries, it doesn't seem to give much back...
Also just because I personally don't like Euros :P but that's kinda off the subject...

[The Dark Lord]

Without too much depth or detail, I don't see much point in it. For everything it takes from countries, it doesn't seem to give much back...
Also just because I personally don't like Euros :P but that's kinda off the subject...

I'm about as eurospectic as they come, but even I see certain benefits in terms of trade, so we do get something back. My issue is that we don't get enough back. I'd be much more comfortable if David Cameron took a Thatcher-like view on Europe and tried for a rebate, but I think he and William Hague (the foreign secretary) have been neutralised by Nick Clegg and the LibDems, which is one of the downfalls of coalition govt's (but that's a different story.

[Fact]

I'm about as eurospectic as they come, but even I see certain benefits in terms of trade, so we do get something back. My issue is that we don't get enough back. I'd be much more comfortable if David Cameron took a Thatcher-like view on Europe and tried for a rebate, but I think he and William Hague (the foreign secretary) have been neutralised by Nick Clegg and the LibDems, which is one of the downfalls of coalition govt's (but that's a different story.

Mhm, like I said - it does give some back, but not much in proportion to what it takes imo.
Politics bores me so I can't go into that side of things much because I don't care to learn about it.

[MadManWithaBox]

For the Irish/since I'm living there now) its not good. In the 70's it was great, cos it helped them develop and move ahead from declining industries. Now however, the money is going to the newest members of the EU, like past communist countries, and ireland is getting nothing. And with EU restrictions on things like agriculture, fishing and forestry etc, its a very bad thing. In my opinion. Plus, I think the whole thing is bollocks. Countries blurring their boarders and giving up their soverignity to a huge burearacy that answers to no one? Bullshit.

[The Dark Lord]

For the Irish/since I'm living there now) its not good. In the 70's it was great, cos it helped them develop and move ahead from declining industries. Now however, the money is going to the newest members of the EU, like past communist countries, and ireland is getting nothing. And with EU restrictions on things like agriculture, fishing and forestry etc, its a very bad thing. In my opinion. Plus, I think the whole thing is bollocks. Countries blurring their boarders and giving up their soverignity to a huge burearacy that answers to no one? Bullshit.

Actually, this has reminded me why I want out of the EU- it is totally unaccountable and there is no recognisable figurehead. We have Baroness Ashton, Brown's 4th choice and Mr. Von Rempuy as the top 2 people in the EU and nobody has a clue who they are! Say what you like about Tony Blair but at least he is recognisable

[Amnesiac]

I think it helps establish a bill of rights for all European countries, which is a huge benefit. I can't really comment on the economic side of things, though.

[scuba steve]

The things wrong with the European Union in my point of view
- The fact that the whole hierarchy is self elected Belgians
- Mass immigration from all these stupid post communist countries selling newspapers and setting up car wash stall in my local area
- The Euro looks like stupid monopoly money
- They continue to dish out Euros to new E.U members and bankrupt countries like Greece like it is Monopoly money
- I'm not a fan of mainland Europe in general


Business wise it can be noticed that trade is imporving across the Member States due to eliminated barriers to trade, but I can't see many more benefits other than the whole integration of the continent being inevitable being one of the most stable continents with shitloads of tiny country's in it.
I would like the E.U to work but as i've said some areas just can't be avoided and I doubt E.U patriotism could ever exist due to the vast country's and cultures.

[Fact]

The things wrong with the European Union in my point of view
- The fact that the whole hierarchy is self elected Belgians
- Mass immigration from all these stupid post communist countries selling newspapers and setting up car wash stall in my local area
- The Euro looks like stupid monopoly money
- They continue to dish out Euros to new E.U members and bankrupt countries like Greece like it is Monopoly money
- I'm not a fan of mainland Europe in general


Business wise it can be noticed that trade is imporving across the Member States due to eliminated barriers to trade, but I can't see many more benefits other than the whole integration of the continent being inevitable being one of the most stable continents with shitloads of tiny country's in it.

Pretty much summed up my views I think

[CairAndros]

I actually had to do a debate on this at school. I was in opposition to the EU, which is very in line with my views.

Each year we pay billions in taxes to the EU and put further billions into the various aid schemes that the EU has - like the recent bail out for Greece.

Now, I really disagree with the EU as we get pretty much nothing out of it. Yes we get to trade in the EU but most of the EU rely on goods that are solely produced in Britain so if we were to leave the EU then we would still trade with Europe and our economy won't be affected. Plus we will be free of trade restrictions imposed upon us by Europe which will allow us to trade as we see fit and set our own prices etc; not what Europe dictates to us.

The freedom of travel is a major headache for us here in the UK. Many foreign people who are seeking asylum or a better lifestyle see Britain as the place to achieve that dream. Now; with the countries being added to the EU we are seeing massive influxes of foreign peoples who are coming in to try and make a better life for themselves. Now, whilst this is an admirable goal - especially if they have families as well - it causes major strain on our housing and welfare systems; as they claim for those and go on housing waiting lists; and it causes social tension as we, the locals, are seeing non-UK citizens getting put into houses before us and receiving benefits etc; which does rankle. Now I am not against Immigration; I however believe that it should be done on a points system where each person wishing to come in is screened in terms of what they can do; for example we could do with more skilled tradesmen and people in other professions - that way we can have people coming in who will be able to get easy employment and not need the benefits etc.

I also believe that we are being a nation full of hypocrites in being part of the EU. At the moment we are the slave of Brussels, forced to accept whatever legislation they see fit to force upon us. Over the centuries British men and women have fought to keep the sovereignty of Britain, our ability to make our own laws and enforce them as we see fit. With our subservience we are effectively ignoring the sacrifices over the years, making their sacrifices in vain. That is not the nation we are. We were once the most powerful Empire on the face of the planet, the destroyer of tyrants and madmen bent on the domination of Europe and the destruction of the free world, not to mention the Workshop of the World. To go from such a lofty position to being the whipping dog of Brussels is a severe insult to what we have done for the good of Europe in the past.

Overall, I think we should pull out of Europe as we will save billions in the budget each year that we can spend in Britain on those that need it most; whether that be by building more hospitals, upgrading schools, maintaining the military at it's current strength to save jobs. We will also be able to generate a better trade income for ourselves. Moreover we will be able to control immigration and have it at an acceptable level to allow us to maintain social stability. Finally we will be honouring the sacrifices of those that have paid the ultimate price to keep Britain a sovereign nation.

[Azunite]

what's that?

Also this week the EU asked for a 6% rise in their budget, when countries are slashing 20% off gov't departments. It shows a massive misread of public opinion and is simply unacceptable. The helps Britain in terms of trading, however it shouldn't be dictating our laws. I will always be British, never European

Schengen is a kind of a passport which the EU countries use. You can pass through the customs without any problem if you have it. But these are of course EU members exclusive.

Addition: EU either wastes money on dead economies, or just burn the money out.
As I said, it helped the EU countries at first with all those coal fights around Europe but not anymore

[CairAndros]

What coal fights?

[Azunite]

(Lol'd how I said coal fights )
You know, before WW1, coal wars

[CairAndros]

Lieber Gott im Himmel; The European Union did not exist until 1993. The earliest possible European Community you could be referring to existed between 1945-1957. Therefore; your argument is invalid.

[Azunite]

Yes I was referring to the Community and I mixed that pre-WW1 thing with something else, sorry for that.

And what do you mean by Lieber Gott im Himmler ?

[CairAndros]

Still; I cannot understand what coal fights you are on about?

Coal, whilst still being used in some places(mostly factories), was by no means the major power source of Europe. Electricity was. And even then coal was still in plentiful enough supply to allow the factories what they needed and to feed the homes and other buildings that still used coal at this point.

[Azunite]

A coal fight, for example:
Alsace area, Germany and France's fight.

[CairAndros]

Again you are getting your history mixed up. Time for a lesson.

Now; the Alsace-Lorraine Region of France was disputed territory ever since the Franco-Prussian War of 1871(the last of Bismarck's 3 Wars Of Unification). At the end of WW1 the French reclaimed the area. That is not a coal producing area, it never has been. Perhaps you are confusing yourself with the Saarland which was one of the major coal producing areas in Germany which was 'taken' from it. All coal produced in that region would go elsewhere bar Germany until a plebiscite in 1935 allowed it to return to Germany.

[Azunite]

Alsace Lorraine had major mining operations, I definetly know that

[CairAndros]

An iron mine. Not a coal mine. Which is the purpose of this mini debate - therefore, as far as we are concerned and as far as your 'coal fights' go, Alsace-Lorraine has no mines.

[Azunite]

So It was an iron mine after all, thought it was coal :P

Okay lets get back to EU

[The Dark Lord]

So It was an iron mine after all, thought it was coal :P

Okay lets get back to EU

either way it was pre-EU and therefore completely irrelevant.

I've just read, admittely in the Daily Mail, that 90% of jobs created by Labour went to migrants, if this a major reason by the EU is flawed

[scuba steve]

Guys how do you think they make electricity in the first place? coal, which is still used to day on a mass scale to generate electricity. But anyway what I believe Cengiz was trying to explain was the Treaty of Paris establishing the coal and steel communities of Europe, seen as the first major act of the European union/community at the time.

[CairAndros]

Which would indeed be the case but the examples chosen and the way it has been explained has lead us to believe otherwise and thus open up this debate within the debate :L

[RandomNobody1]

The EU has been very beneficial to the trade and diplomatics of Western Europe, and honestly I have no problem for it. It's like saying NAFTA is useless, at what point can you declare a body "useless."

I have mixed feelings about the Euro, not a universal currency itself.

But what do you guys think about the Lisbon Treaty?

[The Dark Lord]

But what do you guys think about the Lisbon Treaty?

It is possibly the worst act of the Labour Government, there should have been a referndum on it, it should have been the British public to decide the treaty, not Gordon Brown

[RandomNobody1]

Well, besides the fact that it creates a government out of the EU with the EXACT structure of the US government, it seems like it could be bad in the long run....or really good.

IMO nothing will happen because just like the USA's government, it was designed to make sure nothing happens.