Should all people be required to serve in the military for a few years?

[ShyGuyInChicago]

Should all people be required to serve in the military for a few years?
Are there any benefits? Would it help people appreciate their country more and encourage them to be productive citizens?

http://debatepedia.idebate.org/en/index.php/Debate:_Military_draft

Can the conscription benefit the society?
[][Edit]
Yes
In the military, young men acquire many skills for everyday life. These include first aid, driving an ambulance, extra practice for surgeons, swimming, etc.) that might be beneficial either to their own careers, or in cases of emergency to everyone as these skills are transferable. That means that "conscription makes for a more disciplined and skilled workforce, as men (and women) leave the military and take the skills which they honed there back to their civilian jobs." (by Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
Test of manhood. Men are tested, to see whether or not they can endure the hardships of military training and earn the right to be called men.
Conscription may inspire camaraderie, unifying a people. "All able-bodied males together as a union have had the same experience and are soldiers, and that may create unity and a national spirit." (by Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

[The Dark Lord]

yes, it teaches people discipline and respect and gives people a sense of self-respect and a purpose

[Azunite]

What the hell ?!??!?!
You don't have that ?
In Turkey, every man who is a citizen of Turkey must go to military service for 15 months! If they are graduated from University, they go in there as a sergeant, others are privates.

In Israel, there is military service for women too ( as I remember )

I am in schock...

[nick]

No, the idea of serving in the armed forces is abhorrent to me. To be sent somewhere at the whim of corrupt politicians with the purpose of killing other people, I couldnt do it, it would destroy me.

[Fact]

What the hell ?!??!?!
You don't have that ?
In Turkey, every man who is a citizen of Turkey must go to military service for 15 months! If they are graduated from University, they go in there as a sergeant, others are privates.

In Israel, there is military service for women too ( as I remember )

I am in schock...

It's not mandatory in the UK and as far as I'm aware, it's not in the USA either.
When you say 'military' it depends what you mean... Because if I was forced to go, then a war broke out and I was sent to fight for something I don't even believe in/care about, I'd be pissed.
If you mean just like military training, I'm in two minds. It would never happen in the UK, because civilians are way, way too far gone to have respect for something like the military (I'm talking about people who are a waste of space, have 3 kids by the time they're 20 or whatever).
Just my opinion, of course.

[Azunite]

Turkey is in war, with PKK.
It is way diffrent from your average US & Europe vs Terrorism war.

But proffesional troops ( troops who have chosen military as their job ) go and fight.
And people still have to serve in military, they can go whenever they want, but if you don't go in ages between 18-45, you are counted as a deserter and sent to prison.

When you go to military, you just have advanced training, so in case there will be war and you get conscripted, you will be well trained.
besides, if there IS war, you would be conscripted in there no ?

That's why Turkey's motto is " Strong Army, Strong Turkey. We are an army of 70 million men " :D

[The Dark Lord]

It's not mandatory in the UK and as far as I'm aware, it's not in the USA either.
When you say 'military' it depends what you mean... Because if I was forced to go, then a war broke out and I was sent to fight for something I don't even believe in/care about, I'd be pissed.

If a war broke out which threatened the safety and the freedom of my country, I'd join without a second thought, regardless of whether I believed in it. Your right we no longer have military service in the UK, it was abolished shortly after the 2nd World War

It would never happen in the UK, because civilians are way, way too far gone to have respect for something like the military (I'm talking about people who are a waste of space, have 3 kids by the time they're 20 or whatever).

Don't sterotype that people who have kids when there young lack self respect, many of the soldiers fighting in Iraq and Afganistan have young families. I'd also say if the gov't made military service complusory, then millions of brits would sign up. Britain has an unbelievable respect for its armed forces

[Azunite]

If a war broke out which threatened the safety and the freedom of my country, I'd join without a second thought, regardless of whether I believed in it. Your right we no longer have military service in the UK, it was abolished shortly after the 2nd World War



Don't sterotype that people who have kids when there young lack self respect, many of the soldiers fighting in Iraq and Afganistan have young families. I'd also say if the gov't made military service complusory, then millions of brits would sign up. Britain has an unbelievable respect for its armed forces

There, a patriot

[The Dark Lord]

Turkey is in war, with PKK.
It is way diffrent from your average US & Europe vs Terrorism war.


The PKK are a terrorist group, similar to the IRA so I think we in Britain know what you are talking about, how is it different from our wars against terrorism

But proffesional troops ( troops who have chosen military as their job ) go and fight.?

yeah we know what professional soldiers are thanks.

And people still have to serve in military, they can go whenever they want, but if you don't go in ages between 18-45, you are counted as a deserter and sent to prison.

When you go to military, you just have advanced training, so in case there will be war and you get conscripted, you will be well trained.
besides, if there IS war, you would be conscripted in there no ?

Couldn't agree more.

[Fact]

Don't sterotype that people who have kids when there young lack self respect, many of the soldiers fighting in Iraq and Afganistan have young families. I'd also say if the gov't made military service complusory, then millions of brits would sign up. Britain has an unbelievable respect for its armed forces

I didn't say they have a lack of self respect, I said they have a lack of respect for the government and the armed forces.
Indeed I did stereotype, but seriously, when I'm around town now, all I see are obese people/drug addicts/chavs/people with seriously messed up life styles, so on and so forth.
I feel like the population on a whole is generally hopeless.
Also, I don't know if I agree about the part to do with respect for its armed forces, considering arguments about wages and rights within the armed forces, etc.
Oh and another thing, there are many immigrants in the UK now (not saying this is a bad thing, that's for another day). Also, we have an aging population. Therefore, I think your idea of 'millions' signing up isn't accurate.

[The Dark Lord]

I didn't say they have a lack of self respect, I said they have a lack of respect for the government and the armed forces..

Any proof?

Indeed I did stereotype, but seriously, when I'm around town now, all I see are obese people/drug addicts/chavs/people with seriously messed up life styles, so on and so forth.
I feel like the population on a whole is generally hopeless..

Your sterotyping again, You have based the general population on a few people you've met in town? How offensive is that to the millions of people who work hard and try to do the best for themselves and their families?

Also, I don't know if I agree about the part to do with respect for its armed forces, considering arguments about wages and rights within the armed forces, etc.

Surely if we didn't respect the armed forces, we wouldn't be arguing in favour of their wages and their rights?

[Azunite]

Armed forces makes your country strong. If you were male, wouldn't you want to defend our country, Fact ?

And Fact I can't believe you, you judge millions by looking at 3 people.

And if you are not going to mention, why did you wrote about immigrants ? And they are of course, the part of the nation they would surely grab weapons and defend.

Seriously, it is only 15 months here, I think it would be shorter if UK would accept it again ( we are shortening it also ) why won't people want it ?

In Turkey, when someone is going to military service, he is send with long convoys and celebration. In military, you share a unique bond with other soldiers. Under all that intense training, you make life-long friends, plus the memories you have in military, you can never experience them in somewhere else. We consider it as a National Duty

[Fact]

1) Lack of Respect: here I'm talking about people that claim benefits for everything and anything unnecessarily. People who break the law (plenty of them, I'm not talking about things like speeding) incessantly.

2) Stereotyping: I'm not meaning to offend people that 'work hard and try to do the best for themselves and their families'. If anything I feel sorry for them - they are outnumbered by people who don't give a shit.

3) Respect for Armed Forces: Good point, I was thinking more about the government's attitudes towards these types of issues when I said that.

From your latest message.

4) If I was Male: Sorry, I can't imagine being male on this topic really. Also, there are many women I know who would defend their country, but there are too many limiting factors and restrictions etc. again, that is for another day.

5) Stereotyping: I'm not looking at three people, I'm looking at millions of people all doing the same thing - that's why the system is flawed.

6) Time constraints: If it's too short, it's pointless? I could behave in a strict and disciplined manner for a short length of time - a few months I guess, doesn't mean I'll continue that way after. Although I take the point that it's a learning curve many people would gain advantages from.

7) Turkey: things are obviously quite different in Turkey then. I can't say I know much about it as a country on the whole, but I know a lot about Britain, whether it be based on opinion or fact.

[The Dark Lord]

Armed forces makes your country strong. If you were male, wouldn't you want to defend our country, Fact ?

And Fact I can't believe you, you judge millions by looking at 3 people.

And if you are not going to mention, why did you wrote about immigrants ? And they are of course, the part of the nation they would surely grab weapons and defend.

Seriously, it is only 15 months here, I think it would be shorter if UK would accept it again ( we are shortening it also ) why won't people want it ?

In Turkey, when someone is going to military service, he is send with long convoys and celebration. In military, you share a unique bond with other soldiers. Under all that intense training, you make life-long friends, plus the memories you have in military, you can never experience them in somewhere else. We consider it as a National Duty

I'd never thought I'd say this but....I completely agree with Cengiz, all these points are completely valid and true.

1) Lack of Respect: here I'm talking about people that claim benefits for everything and anything unnecessarily. People who break the law (plenty of them, I'm not talking about things like speeding) incessantly.

2) Stereotyping: I'm not meaning to offend people that 'work hard and try to do the best for themselves and their families'. If anything I feel sorry for them - they are outnumbered by people who don't give a shit.

3) Respect for Armed Forces: Good point, I was thinking more about the government's attitudes towards these types of issues when I said that.

Point number 1: you'd be surprised how few people actually do that

Point number 2: If you think the number of unemployed people in Britain outnumbers the number of employed people, you are mentally deranged.

Point number 3: Again you are wrong, the defence secretary was able to negociate a deal for the defence budget of only 7.5% cuts, compared to the 10-20% planned by George Osborne, showing politicians care and respect the armed forces

[Fact]

@ The Dark Lord
1) I think you'd be surprised by how many people do. I can't quote every example under the sun.

2) I didn't even mention employment vs. unemployment? You've gone off the beaten track there. Also, I might be mentally deranged, but not about stuff like this.

3) You sure it's the 'care and respect' they're bothered about? I can think of lots of other things the armed forces do that the government ARE bothered about and it's got nothing to do with care or respect in my opinion.

[The Dark Lord]

@ The Dark Lord
1) I think you'd be surprised by how many people do. I can't quote every example under the sun.

2) I didn't even mention employment vs. unemployment? You've gone off the beaten track there. Also, I might be mentally deranged, but not about stuff like this.

3) You sure it's the 'care and respect' they're bothered about? I can think of lots of other things the armed forces do that the government ARE bothered about and it's got nothing to do with care or respect in my opinion.

Point number 1: right, you don't have any sources, so you are wrong

Point number 2: according to the national office of statistics the number of people in employment is 70.7%, whereas the number of unemployed is 7.7%. Again, these are statistics, not sterotypes. I don't know anything about you but if you geniunely think what you've posted, then you need to have a serious think about your, lack of, education and unbringing.

Point number 3: Yes I'm sure the government thinks people in the armed forces deserve to be respected, which is presumably why they have had cuts to the armed forces downgraded from their earlier predictions. If you are implying that you think the gov't use the armed forces for political benefits, which is what I think you are, then you are so unbelievably mistaken. There is not a single person in Britain, whether they are the Prime Minister or sell the Big Issue that doesn't have the upmost respect for the armed forces

[Fact]

Point number 1: right, you don't have any sources, so you are wrong

Point number 2: according to the national office of statistics the number of people in employment is 70.7%, whereas the number of unemployed is 7.7%. Again, these are statistics, not sterotypes. I don't know anything about you but if you geniunely think what you've posted, then you need to have a serious think about your, lack of, education and unbringing.

Point number 3: Yes I'm sure the government thinks people in the armed forces deserve to be respected, which is presumably why they have had cuts to the armed forces downgraded from their earlier predictions. If you are implying that you think the gov't use the armed forces for political benefits, which is what I think you are, then you are so unbelievably mistaken. There is not a single person in Britain, whether they are the Prime Minister or sell the Big Issue that doesn't have the upmost respect for the armed forces

1) It's my OPINION, that's why it's called 'Ramblings of the Wise' forum. It does not say 'Bash the Fuck Out of Each Other on Political Shit That None Of You Are Actually Involved In'.

2) There was no need to get personal? I'm not calling you uneducated or single minded, am I? I refer back to my first point. And FYI, I'm very well educated, thanks.
Oh and for your so called 'proof' and your statistics, presuming you've only quoted from people who are eligible to work, what are the other 23% odd doing?

3) Then what are wars about if they're not for political benefits?
And although my level of respect for the armed forces isn't decreasing, my level of respect for you just did.

There was no reason to get personal.

[Azunite]

1) It's my OPINION, that's why it's called 'Ramblings of the Wise' forum. It does not say 'Bash the Fuck Out of Each Other on Political Shit That None Of You Are Actually Involved In'.

2) There was no need to get personal? I'm not calling you uneducated or single minded, am I? I refer back to my first point. And FYI, I'm very well educated, thanks.
Oh and for your so called 'proof' and your statistics, presuming you've only quoted from people who are eligible to work, what are the other 23% odd doing?

3) Then what are wars about if they're not for political benefits?And although my level of respect for the armed forces isn't decreasing, my level of respect for you just did.

There was no reason to get personal.

Well the red part was true actually but,
Green part... Well, there wouldn't be any wars if there weren't any political interests ( well there are resource wars too but dont include them )
And there is no need to get angry agaist each other. Matty, just lost his temper for a moment I think. Let's continue the debate :)

[The Dark Lord]

1) It's my OPINION, that's why it's called 'Ramblings of the Wise' forum. It does not say 'Bash the Fuck Out of Each Other on Political Shit That None Of You Are Actually Involved In'..

I know what the name of the forum is thanks. I'm getting personal, but if you are saying that the majority of Britain is lazy, addicted and useless you are wrong, there is simply no argument in favour of it. You must justify your opinion and you have proven incapable of doing so.

2) There was no need to get personal? I'm not calling you uneducated or single minded, am I? I refer back to my first point. And FYI, I'm very well educated, thanks.
Oh and for your so called 'proof' and your statistics, presuming you've only quoted from people who are eligible to work, what are the other 23% odd doing?.

If you think what you think, then you are simply narrow minded and uneducated. If you think nobody in Britain respects the armed forces, everyone claims benefits and nobody has any self-respect, then that is wrong! Also if 70.7% are in employment and 7.7% are unemployed, you are correct that leave leaves 21.6% of the population unaccounted for, perhaps they are housewifes, mothers, pensioners. Presumably they are looking after children and collecting their pension and not drinking, stealing and eating.

3) Then what are wars about if they're not for political benefits?

Yes, I completely agree that politicians benefit greatly from wars, look at Chamberlain with WW2 (lost the PM job months after the beginning of the war), Churchill same war (lost the PM job months after the end of the war), Tony Blair with Iraq (completely discredited, lost millions of voters and is now the most hated man in the country). Politicians fight wars to protect national security and the freedom of the country.

[Fact]

Well, there wouldn't be any wars if there weren't any political interests ( well there are resource wars too but dont include them )

I kinda do include them because it's the government that want the resources - verging on political.

Thankyou anyway, hopefully 'Matty' will learn to keep his opinions/emotions down.

[nick]

There is not a single person in Britain, whether they are the Prime Minister or sell the Big Issue that doesn't have the upmost respect for the armed forces
Sorry Matt, but that's a ridiculous statement. There's me for a start. I respect that many of our armed forces are very professional people doing a difficult job in difficult circumstances. That doesnt change the fact that there are some very unsavoury people in the army, and that not all the stories of rape and torture of foreign nationals relate to troups from the USA.

[The Dark Lord]

I kinda do include them because it's the government that want the resources - verging on political.

Thankyou anyway, hopefully 'Matty' will learn to keep his opinions/emotions down.

I'm not getting emotional, you were wrong. I bet you can't find a single person or source that agrees with you

Sorry Matt, but that's a ridiculous statement. There's me for a start. I respect that many of our armed forces are very professional people doing a difficult job in difficult circumstances. That doesnt change the fact that there are some very unsavoury people in the army, and that not all the stories of rape and torture of foreign nationals relate to troups from the USA.

There are unsavoury people in every part of society, you can't judge the thousands by a few

[Fact]

I know what the name of the forum is thanks. I'm getting personal, but if you are saying that the majority of Britain is lazy, addicted and useless you are wrong, there is simply no argument in favour of it. You must justify your opinion and you have proven incapable of doing so.

...

If you think what you think, then you are simply narrow minded and uneducated.




Why the hell are you getting personal?
There are plenty of arguments in favour for it, that's why the government is cutting benefits down - as heard from the radio and watched in the news.

Since you keep putting the emphasis on my apparent lack of education and 'narrow minded' behaviour, maybe you should take a look at yourself.

I'm not getting emotional, you were wrong.

↑ AND THERE IS MY DAMN PROOF THAT YOU SHOULD.
Because if you're not emotional, then you're doing it with purposeful intent to offend.

[The Dark Lord]

Why the hell are you getting personal?
There are plenty of arguments in favour for it, that's why the government is cutting benefits down - as heard from the radio and watched in the news.

Since you keep putting the emphasis on my apparent lack of education and 'narrow minded' behaviour, maybe you should take a look at yourself.



↑ AND THERE IS MY DAMN PROOF THAT YOU SHOULD.

Your point was that those people were in the MAJORITY of Brits. That's so stupid, its unbelievable. I'm well aware that the gov't plans to cut welfare, but that relates to pensions, housing etc. I've never heard anyone say that these people are in the majority. You are still unable to provide a single source to back up this claim

[Fact]

You are still unable to provide a single source to back up this claim

And where are YOUR sources?

[The Dark Lord]

And where are YOUR sources?

The fact that 70.7% of people actually work. Now where are yours?

[Azunite]

Kinda agree with Matthew, and if you want to keep Matt down you better bring a survey report or something.

Before going into more personal stuff please just leave this here and focus on the real thing.

[The Dark Lord]

Kinda agree with Matthew, and if you want to keep Matt down you better bring a survey report or something.

Before going into more personal stuff please just leave this here and focus on the real thing.

@Fact, this to Cengiz, he is the King of being asked for sources by me!

[Fact]

The fact that 70.7% of people actually work. Now where are yours?

If you look at your previous comment, you highlight the fact that you thought I was talking about majority.
And if you look even further back, you'll realise I've not once mentioned a majority with regards to unemployment.
What I HAVE said, going back to the original argument, is that MAJORITY of people will not join the armed forces, like the 'millions' you suggested.
I then attempted to give examples of the kind of people who don't give a shit about things such as the armed forces - which is how we ended up here.
What I did NOT say, is that within that majority of people who won't join the armed forces, there are more 'wastes of space' than not.
Correct me if wrong, and use your well loved 'proof'.

[The Dark Lord]

It's not mandatory in the UK and as far as I'm aware, it's not in the USA either.
When you say 'military' it depends what you mean... Because if I was forced to go, then a war broke out and I was sent to fight for something I don't even believe in/care about, I'd be pissed.
If you mean just like military training, I'm in two minds. It would never happen in the UK, because civilians are way, way too far gone to have respect for something like the military (I'm talking about people who are a waste of space, have 3 kids by the time they're 20 or whatever).Just my opinion, of course.

I didn't say they have a lack of self respect, I said they have a lack of respect for the government and the armed forces.
Indeed I did stereotype, but seriously, when I'm around town now, all I see are obese people/drug addicts/chavs/people with seriously messed up life styles, so on and so forth.I feel like the population on a whole is generally hopeless.
Also, I don't know if I agree about the part to do with respect for its armed forces, considering arguments about wages and rights within the armed forces, etc.
Oh and another thing, there are many immigrants in the UK now (not saying this is a bad thing, that's for another day). Also, we have an aging population. Therefore, I think your idea of 'millions' signing up isn't accurate.

1) Lack of Respect: here I'm talking about people that claim benefits for everything and anything unnecessarily. People who break the law (plenty of them, I'm not talking about things like speeding) incessantly.

2) Stereotyping: I'm not meaning to offend people that 'work hard and try to do the best for themselves and their families'. If anything I feel sorry for them - they are outnumbered by people who don't give a shit.
3) Respect for Armed Forces: Good point, I was thinking more about the government's attitudes towards these types of issues when I said that.

From your latest message.

4) If I was Male: Sorry, I can't imagine being male on this topic really. Also, there are many women I know who would defend their country, but there are too many limiting factors and restrictions etc. again, that is for another day.

5) Stereotyping: I'm not looking at three people, I'm looking at millions of people all doing the same thing - that's why the system is flawed.

6) Time constraints: If it's too short, it's pointless? I could behave in a strict and disciplined manner for a short length of time - a few months I guess, doesn't mean I'll continue that way after. Although I take the point that it's a learning curve many people would gain advantages from.

7) Turkey: things are obviously quite different in Turkey then. I can't say I know much about it as a country on the whole, but I know a lot about Britain, whether it be based on opinion or fact.

@ The Dark Lord
1) I think you'd be surprised by how many people do. I can't quote every example under the sun.

2) I didn't even mention employment vs. unemployment? You've gone off the beaten track there. Also, I might be mentally deranged, but not about stuff like this.

3) You sure it's the 'care and respect' they're bothered about? I can think of lots of other things the armed forces do that the government ARE bothered about and it's got nothing to do with care or respect in my opinion.

This is what you have been describing Britain as, without a single justification. Look to the bit in red, where you do say majority.

[The Dark Lord]

If you look at your previous comment, you highlight the fact that you thought I was talking about majority.
And if you look even further back, you'll realise I've not once mentioned a majority with regards to unemployment.
What I HAVE said, going back to the original argument, is that MAJORITY of people will not join the armed forces, like the 'millions' you suggested.
I then attempted to give examples of the kind of people who don't give a shit about things such as the armed forces - which is how we ended up here.
What I did NOT say, is that within that majority of people who won't join the armed forces, there are more 'wastes of space' than not.
Correct me if wrong, and use your well loved 'proof'.

If it becomes law, then I think you'll find they will. Also did I say "millions"? You are doing it again, "there are more 'wastes of space' than not", implies majority

[Fact]

You've betrayed your friend 'proof', as in all the parts you've highlighted, you've still not addressed my initial query.
I see that no where have I said 'the reason people will not joined the armed forces is because I think everyone is a waste of space'.
Also, if you look at the part before the part in red in your quotation, you will see that I was talking about people who work hard. Just because people have jobs, doesn't mean they work hard.
You've misinterpreted what I'm trying to say.
If it becomes law, I'll be moving to Iceland.

[The Dark Lord]

You've betrayed your friend 'proof', as in all the parts you've highlighted, you've still not addressed my initial query.
I see that no where have I said 'the reason people will not joined the armed forces is because I think everyone is a waste of space'.
You've misinterpreted what I'm trying to say.
If it becomes law, I'll be moving to Iceland.

I haven't misinterpreted what you have said. However, we'll draw a line under it due to the fact that we are getting off topic and getting heated.

If it is a law, then people have no choice but they have to do it, otherwise they will go to jail, that's how a law works- you either do it or you get punished

[Azunite]

Allright, sorry but, cut that out both of you,

Lets go back to topic, we don't want the fire to start again.

So where were we? Yes, I think in order to teach dicipline and defense, military service is essential.
New point, it will teach people the importance of teamwork, which will help them in their business life, no ?

[The Dark Lord]

So where were we? Yes, I think in order to teach dicipline and defense, military service is essential.
New point, it will teach people the importance of teamwork, which will help them in their business life, no ?

As you said earlier, military service in Turkey is the law, out of interest do you have any idea of how many people refuse to join up? I'd imagine it'd be very low. I completely agree with you, skills learnt in the army are essential to succed in life.

[nick]

I completely agree with you, skills learnt in the army are essential to succed in life.
So how has everyone managed in the UK since the 1950's then. Try explaining that theory to Richard Branson.

[The Dark Lord]

So how has everyone managed in the UK since the 1950's then. Try explaining that theory to Richard Branson.

I'm not saying that without military service, you can't acquire those skills, but it does help. Things like organisation, determination and team work are learnt in the army, I'm sure these are skills Mr Branson has, but not everyone does. Surely the army would mean that nearly everyone would acquire those skills?

[Azunite]

It is essential, as he said. People could live without military service but UK would have been better if there was mlitary service.

Dicipline is purely essential in my opinion, you have to learn it from somewhere.
ın example, I am in a German High School now, ( the best high school in Turkey now ) and a lot of teachers and staff working there have graduated from this school, and you can't believe how German dicipline teached them how to work efficiently.

[1_21Guns]

Firstly, this is going off topic, please stay on the original topic, if you wish to tail off about this, make another thread, or take it to PM.
Also, there is no need to personally attack people, and bash them.
It is a debate and nothing more, there's no need to start firing insults.
This is a warning, any further breakages may result in infractions etc.

[Perseus]

No. I do not want to spend my free time doing grunt work for the military. If there is no draft, I'm not getting in the military, unless America had a war inside of her, but in I'm sure that'd be a draft. I have no desire to fight, so why should I be forced into the military? This isn't ancient Rome or ancient Greece.

[Whisper]

I believe military training should be given to everybody in school from say grade 6-12. It should be a requirement to graduate.
It would help instill confidence in ones abilities, hand to hand combat training for defence, it would prepare them in the eventuality of a war or a natural disaster and it would help to instil an active lifestyle which is good considering obesity is the number one killer in the western world, which is laughable considering everywhere else its starvation.

I could see it being far more useful than forcing them to endure Shakespeare.

[CairAndros]

There is nothing wrong with Shakespeare.

Although I do think that instilling the right attitude towards a healthy lifestyle isn't a bad thing.

[Jess]

I don't think we should be required. I agree with Perseus.

I don't see myself in the military and I am not interested. my older brother, I can't imagine him in the military

besides, don't you have to be an American citizen?

my brother and I aren't

[Amnesiac]

Only during a time when the nation itself is at risk of being taken over by an external force.

[Mr. Awesome]

No. Every person has the right to Life. And we all should have the right to decide how we live that life. I for one am anti military, I belive that violence is not the way to solve problems, that things should be talked through, however i do recognise that cannot always be the way.

I could care less about my country(Ireland), we all have a right to have land beneath our feet and we should not be made to fight for it

[Sith Lord 13]

I could care less about my country(Ireland), we all have a right to have land beneath our feet and we should not be made to fight for it

Rights only exist because the military fights to ensure them. No piece of paper, no man in the sky, just the countless men and women over the years who have fought for those rights.

I believe it's appropriate on two conditions. 1) Gender equality. Women are equal to men. That means they have the same rights AND responsibilities. 2) Pacifist option. You can contribute to the military in many ways, be it as a grunt, a medic, a pilot, a clerk, what ever. Same training (including weapons training, pacifism often goes out the door in a kill or be killed setting, best the person know what they're doing), different uses for those unwilling to kill.

[Perseus]

Rights only exist because the military fights to ensure them. No piece of paper, no man in the sky, just the countless men and women over the years who have fought for those rights.

I believe it's appropriate on two conditions. 1) Gender equality. Women are equal to men. That means they have the same rights AND responsibilities. 2) Pacifist option. You can contribute to the military in many ways, be it as a grunt, a medic, a pilot, a clerk, what ever. Same training (including weapons training, pacifism often goes out the door in a kill or be killed setting, best the person know what they're doing), different uses for those unwilling to kill.

Why do you find it appropriate for people to be sent into their doom without them enlisting themselves? I find that ridiculous unless America herself is having a war inside of her. If people have no desire to serve, they shouldn't.

[CairAndros]

Pacifists have fought during wars before and even those who aren't pacifists often find that they cant actually kill someone. I was watching a program on WW1 and they had one of the last surviving - at the time - veterans on and were interviewing him. And he was saying that as a German was approaching him he knew it was kill or be killed but he couldn't bring himself to kill this man - he was a devout christian and quoted the "Thou shall not kill" commandment - so he shot him in the leg; brought him down - took him out of the fight - but didnt kill him.

So there is a place for pacifism in the military and as was said above you could be a clerk or a stretcher bearer etc.

Look at Israel for example; all men(not sure about the women) have to spend x amount of years in the military after leaving school. In this they are taught how to defend themselves and how to fight. Would you not think that having this knowledge would be incredibly useful?

Say you are out walking one night and some gang of neds or w/e decide to try mug you etc if you have that sorta training then you can fight back - which will make them re-evaluate their stance because they only go after what they perceive to be an easy target and you also buy yourself some time to shout for help and save yourself.

Not to mention that military training does help your fitness levels and can help you when you leave by having showed you how to keep yourself fit and healthy.

I suppose I am a tad biased though because I am applying for the Royal Navy as we speak so I am in full agreement with the military :L

[Azunite]

Military training in 6th grade? ? ?
You mean physical training ?
We have a class called National Security in high school and there you learn some theoric military stuff etc..

Turkey and Israel have military service, Israel also has it for women, but they are not forced to go there.

And why the hell people talk about dying in military service ? They dont send you to Afghanistan when you go to military service ! You just have military training in a military base.
For example, in order for western people to know east, and eastern people to know west, they would send me ( I am in istanbul ) to Şırnak ( eastern turkey ) to military train.

Nobody can point out a disadvantage here. It seems that people over there are not as patriot as us, no man in Turkey wouldn't want to go to military service for a mere 15 months.

[CairAndros]

You cannot accuse the West of not being patriotic.

Countless times in the history of the West the people have risen to fill the ranks of their countries armies to fight off whatever foe presented itself.

From our point of view we used to have National Service(in Britain) but that has been gone for several decades now. So it is an alien concept to us who are not used to having such a system in place and as a consequence you will get people who will say "why should we do it - if we wanted military training then we would join the Army/Navy/Airforce" and then you get others saying "It will be a good thing for kids these days" etc.

But under no circumstance can we be accused of a lack of patriotism. It is indeed upon Western Patriotism that the modern world is founded. If we had been as lacking in patriotism as you claim then we would have rolled over and allowed Hitler and the Nazi's to conquer the world; we, however, fought.

[Azunite]

I didn't say you lack patriotism, I just said it is not strong as ours

[CairAndros]

How can you claim that though?

[Azunite]

If you were patriot enough, you would want to be prepared for defending your country.

[Jess]

some people have no desire to serve. why should you force them?

[Azunite]

Well It is law in Turkey, don't ask me.

But it would show that they don't wish to serve their country, if they don't want to have military training for a mere 1 year

[CairAndros]

But with that state of mind comes a state of constant fear that something will happen that will require you to act upon that training.

If something major was to happen that required people to sign up it would happen - of that I have no doubt.

Moving back on topic as we have digressed - perhaps too much.

Jess; I personally think it would be a good idea but if someone had to object due to religious or belief grounds then that would be looked at on a case by case basis =]

EDIT:

Yes, it is law in Turkey which means that is something that you don't get to question - you just accept it. You wouldn't question laws for murder or rape or anything else. We here in the west still have military service in some countries; not in all. Therefore we can question whether to bring it back.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_service#Military_service_limited_to_1_year_or_less - list of countries that have military service.

[Azunite]

People WILL be conscripted in Army in case of a major war. You would simply reduce the chances of dying in battle if you have training.

[CairAndros]

So you are suggesting that people will be conscripted - given the proper gear then sent to the front line?

That is one of the most ridiculous ideas I have ever heard.

No self respecting military would do what you are suggesting; it would be cheaper to shoot them on the parade ground as you would save on transport and kit costs.

Elite special forces units suffer casualties in war and they are the best trained soldiers in the world; by your logic they shouldn't suffer any losses ever due to their high level of training - it doesn't work like that. Yes training helps to a degree but it all comes down to luck; if the bullet has your name on it then it has your name on it - nothing you can do about it.

[Azunite]

I just want to ask this quesiton.
Would a trained soldiers survive more, or a recruit ?

And yes we have conscription because men know how to fight, they are trained.
So when we enter war, our armies have a huge boost in numbers.
But of course, proffesional troops are sent on line first.

Edit: Here, have an idea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Turkey

[CairAndros]

As I said before it all comes down to luck. If you are meant to die then you will - it's as simple as that.

Again you are suggesting that you would send people who have just entered training into battle. So far as that goes the conclusion is obvious; the trained soldier would have more of an idea of how to survive but that doesn't mean that they will. And as far as that goes I have never disputed that fact; what I have disputed is your claim that people who have undergone military training as part of a national service program will have a greater chance of surviving as they will have had the same amount of training as the recruits who haven't done the military service will have had by the time they finish training. Therefore they would both be equal in terms of ability to survive.

Once more I will say this before I get pinged by a Mod; We are moving way off topic here - this thread is about whether military service should be something all people should do;not who would survive in combat more. Therefore I suggest we move back onto topic. If you wish to continue this line of argument then, by all means feel free to, create another thread specifically aimed at that - until that time I am saying no more on our digressed subject.

[The Dark Lord]

I didn't say you lack patriotism, I just said it is not strong as ours

This is wrong. You are effectively claiming that because you follow the law, then you patriotic. When I drive, I stay within the speed limit, does this make me patriotic?

People should spend time in the military because of the skills they learn. I disagree with Cengiz's point that better trained recurits have a better chance of survival, as I believe the next world war would be too technologically advanced for ground troops to make an impact. Regardless of training, you aren't surviving if your enemy presses the nuclear button.

[Azunite]

This is wrong. You are effectively claiming that because you follow the law, then you patriotic. When I drive, I stay within the speed limit, does this make me patriotic?

People should spend time in the military because of the skills they learn. I disagree with Cengiz's point that better trained recurits have a better chance of survival, as I believe the next world war would be too technologically advanced for ground troops to make an impact. Regardless of training, you aren't surviving if your enemy presses the nuclear button.

Why does everyone finish the point with nuclear bombs ?
Then, according to your opinions, wars will start and end on the same day, since we just send in the nukes and that's it.

But still, training will make you hardened. I still believe that someone who is trained will have a better chance of survival ( of course I am excluding some open firefights where your chance of survival is %50, either you or your friend will get hit )

[Perseus]

Israel have military service, Israel also has it for women, but they are not forced to go there.



Oh yeah, they're fighting for their survival. We are not in America. We are not in danger of being invaded by insurgent forces because they do not have the man power, money, or equipment. No one should be forced into the military if they do not want to. How is being shot at patriotic? "Oh, you die for your country!" Fuck that. If I don't wish to die in battle, I shouldn't unless there is a reason I should fight, such as I have stated many times, America has been invaded.

[Azunite]

Excuse me, why does everyone relate military training to death ?

[Perseus]

Excuse me, why does everyone relate military training to death ?

Because you're going into the military for training, which means they want you on the frontilines.

[The Dark Lord]

Why does everyone finish the point with nuclear bombs ?
Then, according to your opinions, wars will start and end on the same day, since we just send in the nukes and that's it.

But still, training will make you hardened. I still believe that someone who is trained will have a better chance of survival ( of course I am excluding some open firefights where your chance of survival is %50, either you or your friend will get hit )

Why are you getting off topic? How will training give you a better chance of survival if you only fight in firefights, it willn't. So does training really improve your chance of survival?

[Perseus]

Why are you getting off topic? How will training give you a better chance of survival if you only fight in firefights, it willn't. So does training really improve your chance of survival?

Yes, because someone who has had extensive training will know how to work under pressure and will know what to do.

[CairAndros]

Even those that have had excessive training can crack under pressure and those that have had barely any training or just the required amount of training can hold fast. It all depends on what sort of person they are;what leadership they have;how the fight is going etc.

[Perseus]

Even those that have had excessive training can crack under pressure and those that have had barely any training or just the required amount of training can hold fast. It all depends on what sort of person they are;what leadership they have;how the fight is going etc.

As right as you are, training is never bad to have. That's why draftees are given training, no matter how little it was or anything. It was still training.

[CairAndros]

I have at no point disputed that training is useful. What I have disputed is the way 'Madness was comparing fresh recruits that have no training to those that have had training through National Service or a career in the military.

[Azunite]

Then why do they train soldiers ?

[Awesome]

No, we have a large enough military already. One day machines will fight our wars. They already are.

[mranderson]

Absolutly not, i would refuse to do this, i will not serve for the govornment, the military, or fight a war that has nothitng to do with me, i refuse to kill someone or go into any war to fight against another person just cause they were born there.

[The Dark Lord]

Absolutly not, i would refuse to do this, i will not serve for the govornment, the military, or fight a war that has nothitng to do with me, i refuse to kill someone or go into any war to fight against another person just cause they were born there.

I don't think thats why wars are fought

[mranderson]

I don't think thats why wars are fought


It has nothing to do with motives. Just the gact that there are wars

[The Dark Lord]

It has nothing to do with motives. Just the gact that there are wars

Okay, could you now explain the below quote please?

i refuse to kill someone or go into any war to fight against another person just cause they were born there.

That's still not why people go to war.