Culture

[Amnesiac]

Are some customs of foreign cultures acceptable because they're so deeply rooted in those cultures, or unacceptable all around?

This question came to me when I was taking notes in my abysmal world geography class, where it was suggested that many things the West would find disturbing should be accepted because they're rooted in other cultures.

Should we accept the more "on thin ice" customs of other cultures, or stand against them because they infringe on human rights?

I bet VT will say it's not acceptable, and I'd have to agree.

[ShyGuyInChicago]

I feel that any cultural practice that harms people should never be tolerated. Culture is supposed to bring people together and foster community.

[Sage]

The concept of what is and is not socially acceptable is relative. You cannot objectively define what is and is not socially acceptable as it varies from region to region and from people to people.

[Magus]

This question came to me when I was taking notes in my abysmal world geography class, where it was suggested that many things the West would find disturbing should be accepted because they're rooted in other cultures. This includes the "objectification" of women in Middle Eastern nations, where they are forced to wear a burqa at all times. Is this acceptable because it is rooted in Middle Eastern culture, or is it unacceptable because it demeans women?
That's a huge misconception. Women in Middle East do not wear Burqah.

Women in Saudi Arabia only wears Burqah. The old folk Emarati burqah is actually a fashion article.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Dz32x3e0KsQ/SeEUWgUMDrI/AAAAAAAACog/KfYQRu3MeTA/s400/burga11.jpg

And the only Burqah or complete gown that covers the whole body is only found in Taliban encased area of Afghanistan.
http://www.allmyrc.com/forums/attachments/off-topics/4655d1277848090-2010-hot-girls-thread-afghanistan_burka_schleier_burqua__burqa.jpg

And the only other place that women wears Burqa is Saudi Arabia - You don't need to wear it. Unless, you are WORKING where man and women mix up.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ni/burqa.jpg

And Burqa is not a compulsory or obligatory thing that women wear. It is their wish and well to wear it. It is not FORCED on women. If it is, then why women that came to western countries kept on wearing them? That's out of the logic sphere, don't you think so?

And I don't see the oppression or suppression. That's a huge misconception you got there, my friend. So, please cut out the false ideas.

It enrages me when Western kids has little to no knowledge about the countries beyond the pond.

[Azunite]

That's a huge misconception. Women in Middle East do not wear Burqah.

Women in Saudi Arabia only wears Burqah. The old folk Emarati burqah is actually a fashion article.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Dz32x3e0KsQ/SeEUWgUMDrI/AAAAAAAACog/KfYQRu3MeTA/s400/burga11.jpg

And the only Burqah or complete gown that covers the whole body is only found in Taliban encased area of Afghanistan.
http://www.allmyrc.com/forums/attachments/off-topics/4655d1277848090-2010-hot-girls-thread-afghanistan_burka_schleier_burqua__burqa.jpg

And the only other place that women wears Burqa is Saudi Arabia - You don't need to wear it. Unless, you are WORKING where man and women mix up.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ni/burqa.jpg

And Burqa is not a compulsory or obligatory thing that women wear. It is their wish and well to wear it. It is not FORCED on women. If it is, then why women that came to western countries kept on wearing them? That's out of the logic sphere, don't you think so?

And I don't see the oppression or suppression. That's a huge misconception you got there, my friend. So, please cut out the false ideas.

It enrages me when Western kids has little to no knowledge about the countries beyond the pond.


Totallly agreed.
Though there IS oppresion in Saudia Arabia and Iran, as they beat the women if their heads are not closed.

It is totally an Arabic and Middle Eastern tradition that women wear turban,
Let's take Turkey as an example
It is a bridge between Middle East and Europe.
On streets, you can see people wearing fully enclosed Burqha's ( but that'S a possibility of 1/50.000 or something )
Other than that, since the Ultrareligionist Prime Minister Erdoğan came to his seat, Turkey became a country with many women with Turban.
And they don't wear tshrits and mini skirts with turban, they wear long skirts or long trousers, or long coats to cover entire body so it is no big diffrence than that enclosed burqha.

And yes that is also a good example, take a look at Iranian immigrants in America or in Holland ( said Holland because now more than half of it is Muslim ). You will see the immigrants wearing turban.
But for example Turkish women in Germany don't wear a turban, athough they are Muslim like Arabs.
What I am saying is it is completely about nations.

And I can't believe you people are so ignorat about Middle East ! You people don't know what is going on !
You just saw few American soldiers killing arab villagers and they wear burgha so you think " O shit these people are all wearing burqha!"
There IS an repression on women in Arabic states, but that is because Arabic culture ( although they claim Kur-an says that they should do this, see Sharia )
By the way, you poeple should start learning about culture.

1-Holland will be a Muslim-Arabic state in 5 years.
2-Southern France, where once had the most churches in the world, has more mosques than churches now.
3-Don't need to tell that more than quarter of America is Muslim ( see Pakistani and Irani cab drivers :D )
4-Germany normally has a population decline ( the population doesn't go up ), the only thing that boosts Germany's population is Islamic immigration.

And you people still say " Too bad Europe will become Eurarabia and women won't be able to live " without knowing anything.

[Magus]

1-Holland will be a Muslim-Arabic state in 5 years.
2-Southern France, where once had the most churches in the world, has more mosques than churches now.
3-Don't need to tell that more than quarter of America is Muslim ( see Pakistani and Irani cab drivers :D )
4-Germany normally has a population decline ( the population doesn't go up ), the only thing that boosts Germany's population is Islamic immigration.

A case study: A typical response ;)
----------
That's Islamism! Get out you goatf:censored:ing, towel head, dune coons! Take your Terroristic Death Cult Islam out of our civilised countries! Go back to your deserts and milk goats you fascist camel f:censored:ers! Take out your Allah and your pedophile profit from our lands!

See your religion! YOUR QURAN SAYS THIS!

"And kill them wherever you find and catch them"!!!!11
"Fight in Allah's Cause"

"'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old."

LOOK THAT'S A PEDOPHILE MOHAMMAD.
SEE!!! THIS IS A RAPE DEATH CULT CALLED ISLAM AND NOT A RELIGION.

May
http://www.turnbacktogod.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/jesus-christ-on-cross-0104.jpg
Bless
http://img-srv.everestwebworks.com/w2/Pictures/My%20Files/1020432.1/eagle%20american%20flag%20plate%2032163.gif

-----------

Sorry, but the it was about the religion of Islam to begin with and not difference of cultural viewpoints.

If it was, then we would have talked about this kind of cultural difference.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_aYJUxvz-L2o/SQoPEPgLhqI/AAAAAAAAGWw/89-jAMolPtg/s400/big-lips-934.jpg

[Azunite]

This topic is total, TOTAL fail....

[steve1234]

This topic is total, TOTAL fail....

I think I agree...

[Amnesiac]

Okay, fine, I worded the original post badly. I don't see exactly what happened here, it's a well known fact that nations such as Iran don't exactly treat women well. But that's another issue.

The topic is whether or not some customs should be accepted because they are rooted in culture, even if by modern viewpoints they are unacceptable. It is not about the Middle East, it was a bad example, and I'm sorry if I offended any of you.

[Azunite]

You did offended us, but your apology is more important :)

Still, you should be careful next time , your title said something neutral but the content reflected the true itention. If you want to discuss about women in Islam or in Middle-Eastern culture, don't hide it udner a neutral title of " Culture " , just open a new topic .
Some customs SHOULD be accepted I think, because it is impossible to change fixed cultures, and Arabs can't just give up heir culture because some Human Rights Association told them not to treat women bad.

And I think Human Rigths Association if quite side-taking when it comes to Human Rights in east.
I mean, we have been given no support when Greeks of Cyprus killed Turks, forcing our invasion of Cyprus.
Anyway, this is not the place to talk that.
I gave my answer to your "latest" question, and do be careful next time :)

PS: About Iran, the story is simple:
Arabs treat women bad in culture.
Arabs adopt Islam
Arabs teach Islam to Iran
Iranians think treating women bad is in Islam.
There you have " Treating women bad is in Islam " behaviour in Iran

[Amnesiac]

You did offended us, but your apology is more important :)

Still, you should be careful next time , your title said something neutral but the content reflected the true itention. If you want to discuss about women in Islam or in Middle-Eastern culture, don't hide it udner a neutral title of " Culture " , just open a new topic .
Some customs SHOULD be accepted I think, because it is impossible to change fixed cultures, and Arabs can't just give up heir culture because some Human Rights Association told them not to treat women bad.

And I think Human Rigths Association if quite side-taking when it comes to Human Rights in east.
I mean, we have been given no support when Greeks of Cyprus killed Turks, forcing our invasion of Cyprus.
Anyway, this is not the place to talk that.
I gave my answer to your "latest" question, and do be careful next time :)

PS: About Iran, the story is simple:
Arabs treat women bad in culture.
Arabs adopt Islam
Arabs teach Islam to Iran
Iranians think treating women bad is in Islam.
There you have " Treating women bad is in Islam " behaviour in Iran

I didn't want to discuss women in the Middle East, that was never the point of this topic. It was simply an example that I came up with (at midnight, I may point out) from the lecture I had in my world geo class. It's a fact that the Middle East does not have the best human rights record, especially when it comes to treatment of women, homosexuals and non-Muslims. I am in no way saying that the ENTIRE Middle East is bad, nor am I saying that we should classify the entire Middle East as some evil region full of barbarians. It's just true that some nations in the Middle East haven't adopted the same standards of equality as the West due to religion, which is part of culture.

My question was whether this should be accepted (tolerated?).

I disagree that it should be accepted simply because some people are stubborn. History is full of even the most unmoving governments and people being influenced to change. It's always possible.

[Azunite]

Well I agree with that, Central Middle-East is not civilized a bit !
But I still disagree that you look Islam bad because of Arabs.
Turkey is Muslim, we treat women good, we even had woman Prime Ministers!
Macedonia's %90 percent is Muslim, but they treat woman like man.
So it is not because of Islam, if Arabs were Christians, and Europe was Islamic, things would stay the same.
But yeah, I t hink it should be tolerated, because it is their land and... Well I don't know...
But what are we planning to do if we don't tolerate. Send a "Human Rights Army " and invade Saudia Arabia ?


*Hey, that boy just hit anothr boy !*
*Human Rights force, start the invasion* :D

[Amnesiac]

Well I agree with that, Central Middle-East is not civilized a bit !
But I still disagree that you look Islam bad because of Arabs.
Turkey is Muslim, we treat women good, we even had woman Prime Ministers!
Macedonia's %90 percent is Muslim, but they treat woman like man.
So it is not because of Islam, if Arabs were Christians, and Europe was Islamic, things would stay the same.
But yeah, I t hink it should be tolerated, because it is their land and... Well I don't know...
But what are we planning to do if we don't tolerate. Send a "Human Rights Army " and invade Saudia Arabia ?


*Hey, that boy just hit anothr boy !*
*Human Rights force, start the invasion* :D

I never wanted to imply that I think Islam is a "bad religion" because of the actions of some Middle Eastern nations. That is in no way what I meant to say, a majority of Muslims are normal people and I have nothing against the religion itself.

Nobody's going to invade Saudi Arabia over some human rights issues, but it's important to put diplomatic pressure on them to change their ways. The world isn't going to get anywhere if people keep sticking to old beliefs.

[Perseus]

Well I agree with that, Central Middle-East is not civilized a bit !
But I still disagree that you look Islam bad because of Arabs.
Turkey is Muslim, we treat women good, we even had woman Prime Ministers!
Macedonia's %90 percent is Muslim, but they treat woman like man.
So it is not because of Islam, if Arabs were Christians, and Europe was Islamic, things would stay the same.
But yeah, I t hink it should be tolerated, because it is their land and... Well I don't know...
But what are we planning to do if we don't tolerate. Send a "Human Rights Army " and invade Saudia Arabia ?


*Hey, that boy just hit anothr boy !*
*Human Rights force, start the invasion* :D
Wrong. The Taliban, in Afghanistan, acts the way they do because of how they interpret Islam and the Qur'an.

[Spreadingwings]

We should except people's customs and keep it at that, if we stand against others customs we would be the evil in ours. By "the evil in ours" I mean that we would be taking away a large part of that cultures personalities, and basically force them to do what we perseve as right. Our desire to change the world in a way that we see fit has left nothing but war; and death.

[Spreadingwings]

even if the practices are old we can learn from them, and if they want to change their customs to ones that reflect more modern veiws, then so be it; advancement towards the future and current time can be life changing.

[Magus]

I didn't want to discuss women in the Middle East, that was never the point of this topic. It was simply an example that I came up with (at midnight, I may point out) from the lecture I had in my world geo class. It's a fact that the Middle East does not have the best human rights record, especially when it comes to treatment of women, homosexuals and non-Muslims.
History and Social/Political Science deals with these kinds of issues, I am pretty sure. Geography is supposed to talk about the climate, region, habitat, flora and fauna and Culture. Culture, in the sense, it should explains about what is going on and not criticizes on what's going on.

Non-Muslims are treated equally. The taxation that Muhammad issued on non-Muslim is abolished in the now reformed Islamic nations. They have already built synagogues, Churches all over the nations now. People from other religions can practice their religion in private institutions. Fact, Non-Muslims are sometimes better treated than Muslims.

Mind that, only 20% of the Middle-easterners are Muslims, the rest are not Muslims; the rest are usually Neo-Pagans, Wiccan(even here, yes), Christian, Zoroastrian, Jews, Yazdanism, and local non-organised religions and beliefs, leave alone the irreligious or atheistic Agnostics, Sceptics(like me! :3 hello! *waves*), Humanists, Secularist and Nihilists that are in Middle-East.

Homosexuals? I will not go there. I have dim knowledge about the homosexuals.


It's just true that some nations in the Middle East haven't adopted the same standards of equality as the West due to religion, which is part of culture.
Secularism is a day dream for many people. You will not find it now, and especially with Saudi Arabia. There will be another Inqalab(revolution) in Iran, as people are getting to see that these people are using Islam as a mean to control people. You have to realise that Saudi Arabia is a center of Islam, it must uphold some of these things.
You must understand that it is hard to imagine the "holy land" where Prophet Mohammad stepped upon to have nude colonies and legal brothels. I mean, come on!


My question was whether this should be accepted (tolerated?).

I disagree that it should be accepted simply because some people are stubborn. History is full of even the most unmoving governments and people being influenced to change. It's always possible.
How will your acceptation(toleration) affect the people that are hundred of thousand miles away from you? Nothing. You can't do anything about it. It is their wish and will to cover their faces, it is their wish and will to do whatever they want. I mean, a Muslim comes to America and wants to abolish legal prostitution - what will be the reaction (Considering the Moral difference between the two stances)?

If it is possible, then that it is "End of time" according to them.

I never wanted to imply that I think Islam is a "bad religion" because of the actions of some Middle Eastern nations. That is in no way what I meant to say, a majority of Muslims are normal people and I have nothing against the religion itself.
Why in closet yourself? Why tolerate a religion that advocates "pedophilia", "death", "suicide" and "intolerancy" - killing people because of some cartoon!? You know you hate it, it is not the people, it is the religion!

I am the only one who thinks the acts in backwaters like Afghanistan and Sudan are extreme. The rest, in my eyes, are normal and won't interfere with my course of life. If women wants to wear Hijab, let them. If they want to wear Niqab, let them.

Do you realise that Niqab was actually used for other things, and it isn't exclusive to Islam?
Veil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil)

Also...

“O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall lengthen their garments. Thus, they will be recognized (as righteous women) and avoid being insulted. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.” (33:59)

I, myself, don't like the garment called Burqa. But I have my own theory of Burqa, which states: Women used to cover their faces with veils. This is because of the dry desert climate and the heat from the sun. Strong radiation of heat and dry air can cause irritation and subtle changes in the skin. Thus a burqa serves nothing but as a screen to protect the soft, thin skin of travelling women.

Culture?

Where I am from, our women do not wear Hijab (head scarf) or Niqab(face veil). Despite being Sunni Muslims.
http://www.irantravelingcenter.com/images/baloch_tribe_nomad_iran.jpg
Fuck it! Even some American ladies enjoy wearing our traditional clothing.
http://baask.com/diwan/gallery/3_23_01_09_1_48_43.png

And if you are going the call that Hijjab[Picture one], then what is this? Huh, why are they wearing Hijjab!

Hungarian Traditional Clothing.
http://www.omda.bg/images_more/Ethnographic_Museums/costumes/w_costume_Bulgmuslim_early20C_BogutevoEMP.jpg

And even German(?) Traditional Clothing
http://images.smh.com.au/ftsmh/ffximage/2009/06/01/snaps_traditionaldress_gallery__559x400.jpg

Now, this is Culture.

Nobody's going to invade Saudi Arabia over some human rights issues, but it's important to put diplomatic pressure on them to change their ways. The world isn't going to get anywhere if people keep sticking to old beliefs.
Homosexuals are seen throught the history, and what is deemed punishable is the "Act(Sodomy)" itself - Death penalty found only in the Shi'ite Iran and Sunnite Saudi Arabia. Jail time in other places.

You should be happy, they(women) are finally permitted to drive a car. We cannot let them change what they are doing, as I told you - it is their country, they will do whatever they want. Nevertheless, don't think the Saudi Femenists and Reformest are sitting idle, they are doing their best to get the Humans rights out. Everyone is voicing their opinions to get Saudi Arabia to be a bit more liberated - if this is what you are looking for.

[Azunite]

Let me ask you people one simple question, it is soo simple.
I hope ANYONE can answer this......

You are talking about Muslim women wearing full black suits. What about nuns, eh ?
They also wear fullly black dress, covering their head and hair. They are Muslims too ???

By the way, Turkish women didn't start to wear veil before they saw nuns

[Azunite]

Wrong. The Taliban, in Afghanistan, acts the way they do because of how they interpret Islam and the Qur'an.

What was the wrong part I say,you are not even talking about what I wrote there, I didn't mention Taliban

[steve1234]

In my opinion, I have absolutley no problem with women wearing veils which cover their hair and head, but don't cover the face.
But when you can only see the eyes (or sometimes nothing at all), I think that is way too much. There are many women in East London who wear the full burqa. Burqas are a symbol of repression, and I just don't think they are suitable in today's society.
I don't think Burqas should be banned, as that could be seen as an attack against the Muslim religion.
I have no problem with any religion wearing garments and other things which represent their religion, but there should be limits.
Also, if religions (such as Muslim and Sikh) are allowed to wear certain things (which I have no problem with), then there shouldn't be a problem with people of Christian religions wearing crosses. For example, there was the case a couple of years back where an employee of British Airways was not allowed to wear a cross around her neck, whereas people of the Sikh faith were allowed to wear Turbans when working for British Airways.

[ZodiacKiller]

The concept of what is and is not socially acceptable is relative. You cannot objectively define what is and is not socially acceptable as it varies from region to region and from people to people.

completely true

[Perseus]

What was the wrong part I say,you are not even talking about what I wrote there, I didn't mention Taliban

You said Islam is not the fault for the women oppression, when, in fact, it is since the Taliban do.

And nuns don't cover their face; also, nuns have the same rights as a man does.

[Azunite]

Nuns don't cover faces yes, and only a small amount of Muslim women cover their faces.
Taliban THINKS it says in Islam that women should be oppressed.
I am a Muslim, why don't I have an oppresion to women ?

[Amnesiac]

Okay, everybody is misinterpreting this abortion of a thread. I'm not talking about burqahs being "bad". I'm talking about nations who, out of religion, force their citizens to wear them against their will. I have no problem with women wearing burqahs if they want to. The french do, but I don't, end of story.

Also, I'm not talking about all Muslims harboring bad ideals about women. Islam does, but not all Muslims do.

The original post was simply talking about countries, like Iran, who FORCE their women to cover their entire bodies. I don't care if a woman covers herself freely, that's none of my business.

[Azunite]

Still wrong....
Islam does not, I REPEAT FOR THIS LAST ONCE DOES not contribute violence to womn !
If it was that so women in Malaysia would also be beaten.
Why do you people judge about Islam when you only look to Arabia ?
There is a large population of Muslims in Balkans but they are fine !

[Magus]

The original post was simply talking about countries, like Iran, who FORCE their women to cover their entire bodies. I don't care if a woman covers herself freely, that's none of my business.

Persian chicks. Some are fashionable, some are not.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42393000/jpg/_42393320_styles203.jpg

Sorry, so as long it is country based on a religious doctrine, it will have them women covered. You can't do anything about it. I, myself, think it is wrong. Women should be free in what they wear. But as you can see, women love to wear unappropriated clothing if there is a complete liberation - Women in G in an Islamic nation... that's hard to imagine, man.

[Azunite]

Turkey is an Islamic state yet we have mini skirts and cleavages :D
Yes, religious doctrine brings oppression.
(Note that there are more women who wear veil after the 2006 elections which brought Justice and Development party to charge, which supports religion over everything )

[Amnesiac]

Still wrong....
Islam does not, I REPEAT FOR THIS LAST ONCE DOES not contribute violence to womn !
If it was that so women in Malaysia would also be beaten.
Why do you people judge about Islam when you only look to Arabia ?
There is a large population of Muslims in Balkans but they are fine !

Yes it does. As I've said before, every religion has its bad parts, MOST OF the followers just ignore them. That's why we don't have disobedient children or gays being stoned in nations with majority Christian population.

Persian chicks. Some are fashionable, some are not.

Sorry, so as long it is country based on a religious doctrine, it will have them women covered. You can't do anything about it. I, myself, think it is wrong. Women should be free in what they wear. But as you can see, women love to wear unappropriated clothing if there is a complete liberation - Women in G in an Islamic nation... that's hard to imagine, man.

I agree that when a nation is primarily Muslim, it'll have covered women. But that's out of their free will, what about nations that force their women to be covered? Should that be accepted because those laws are based on their culture?

[Perseus]

Nuns don't cover faces yes, and only a small amount of Muslim women cover their faces.
Taliban THINKS it says in Islam that women should be oppressed.
I am a Muslim, why don't I have an oppresion to women ?

I never said all Muslims do. I said the TALIBAN. Unless you are a part of the Taliban, it doesn't pertain to you.

[The Joker]

They also wear fullly black dress, covering their head and hair. They are Muslims too ???

They CHOOSE to become nuns, and they know that it is a requirement to dress like that.

[Azunite]

They CHOOSE to become nuns, and they know that it is a requirement to dress like that.

I know that, still I am talking about that " requirment ". Why is it a requirment you thnk ?

[Perseus]

I know that, still I am talking about that " requirment ". Why is it a requirment you thnk ?

To distinguish between nuns and non nuns.

[The Dark Lord]

I think if you come over to my country then you should adopt my culture, similarly if I went to your country then I would adopt your culture.



I am a Muslim, why don't I have an oppresion to women ?

Then you are not a proper muslim.

[Magus]

I agree that when a nation is primarily Muslim, it'll have covered women. But that's out of their free will, what about nations that force their women to be covered? Should that be accepted because those laws are based on their culture?
It will have covered Women, but not throughout. To answer the prime question: No, it is not accepted. It is detested. Shi'ite Iran and Sunni Saudi Arabia is the only countries which I think it enforces this policy - and not the WHOLE MIDDLE-EAST!(And I hope that some minor misconceptions are clear with my previous posts)
I think if you come over to my country then you should adopt my culture, similarly if I went to your country then I would adopt your culture.
The only thing I would adopt is the language of where I stay. It is an advantage to know the language. If you don't, you will definitely be in trouble.
Then you are not a proper muslim.
"Proper" Muslim is not obliged to hit their wives, or "oppress" their women. Yes, we have heard numerous hadiths and couple of verses that says to hit your wife if they have done something wrong, or women are like half of a man - and some areas, we can even observe honor killings, and women aren't allowed to vote and etc. Despite all those things, it is not a Sunnah or a work of -anything- to oppress the women. The term "reformation" plays a role in these times.

[Azunite]

Then you are not a proper muslim.

Matty, you are the dumbest man ever, sorry....
So, you think Malaysia and the area arond are not proper Muslims
You think 1/4 of Balkans are not proper Muslims
You think whole Turkey is not proper Muslim.
You think Kur-an says "Use force to women, you will go to heaven" or some sort.
Allah does not want any individual to hurt any other being, so then you also say women are not beings

[The Dark Lord]

The only thing I would adopt is the language of where I stay. It is an advantage to know the language. If you don't, you will definitely be in trouble.

Yeah I agree with this, if you can't speak the language of the country in which you live, then you have no right to live their

"Proper" Muslim is not obliged to hit their wives, or "oppress" their women. Yes, we have heard numerous hadiths and couple of verses that says to hit your wife if they have done something wrong, or women are like half of a man - and some areas, we can even observe honor killings, and women aren't allowed to vote and etc. Despite all those things, it is not a Sunnah or a work of -anything- to oppress the women. The term "reformation" plays a role in these times.

James, read the above post from someone considerable less ignorant than me. It clearly states that women are not equal to men

Matty, you are the dumbest man ever, sorry....

Thank you

So, you think Malaysia and the area arond are not proper Muslims.
You think 1/4 of Balkans are not proper Muslims
You think whole Turkey is not proper Muslim.

I think the overwhelming majority of muslims and indeed every religion are hypocrites who pick and chose what parts of their religion they follow. This is NOT an attack on islam, merely an attack on hypocrites

You think Kur-an says "Use force to women, you will go to heaven" or some sort.

No, I don't

Allah does not want any individual to hurt any other being, so then you also say women are not beings

That is, even by your standards, ridiculous. I haven't said anything that you have accused me of, I merely stated an observation, repeated by others, that islam does not, like most religions, grant equal status to both men and women. Of course, I consider women as beings, its one of the reasons I rejected outdated and hypocritical religion.

[Azunite]

So, if we review what you wrote in your last post..
First of all, I would like to make an apology for calling you dumb, if you deserved that I would be deserved to call a fuckface :)

Anyway, still I think you people make a general statement of Islam by looking only to Saudia Arabia, and Iran.
Of course, I believe a little, that root cultures of a nation affects the perspective of the religion they have chosen.
For example first Turkish tribes respected women so much, that war councils were lead by the local chieftain, with her wife next to him as an active advisor and leader.
It is in arabic culture, that women see violance. And therefore since Islam came from Arabia, people think ( both people who were converted and the outsiders ) think violence to women is in Islam, by looking at Arabs, who are the first to embrace Islam

[Amnesiac]

It will have covered Women, but not throughout. To answer the prime question: No, it is not accepted. It is detested. Shi'ite Iran and Sunni Saudi Arabia is the only countries which I think it enforces this policy - and not the WHOLE MIDDLE-EAST!(And I hope that some minor misconceptions are clear with my previous posts)

Okay, so you're saying that the West shouldn't be tolerant of the policies of some Middle Eastern nations regarding women.

I've said multiple times that I know not the entire Middle East enforces a dress code for women. You don't have to emphasize that.

[Azunite]

Then why do you still insist on saying that wearing burqhas and using force against women is in İslam ?

[Perseus]

Then why do you still insist on saying that wearing burqhas and using force against women is in İslam ?

He's not saying that. You're seeing what you want to see.

[Azunite]

(Okay so I may have mixed up the topics :) since every talk in this forum is about İslam now )

[Asylum]

i am a Muslim woman, and i am not oppresse. i am not forced to wear a hijab. Only time i would ever wear hijab is at mosque, so i can and others can focus souly on God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mhqgrYgNJ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVcTgs6kyTo
These videos give you what Muslim women say on hijab their opinion in a non forceful hijab environment.

Honestly i think the West should tolerate hijab, hijab should be optional for the person everywhere and they hsouldn't be descriminated or forced to wear it. Yes... I'm aware some places in our World do supress women wiht hijab.. I'm not saying that... I'm just talking about places in the world like America, and Europe.