Born That Way

[Dive to Survive]

I was talking with two friends and one thought that you are born with your sexual orientation, while my other friend and I completely disagreed. What do you guys think? Is your sexual orientation something you are born with or is it a choice?

[Perseus]

I was talking with two friends and one thought that you are born with your sexual orientation, while my other friend and I completely disagreed. What do you guys think? Is your sexual orientation something you are born with or is it a choice?

You don't wake up one morning and say, "Hey, I loves me some penis now!" You don't choose to be straight, nor do you choose to be gay. I'd like to see you try and turn gay, Kaname. It won't work since you won't have an emotional attachment with a guy like you would with a girl.

[Peace God]

the old "nature vs. nurture" debate

Is your sexual orientation something you are born with or is it a choice?
i say neither...genetics definitely play a role but i think the environment growing up also plays a minor role

one thing is clear though... it is definitely NOT a choice...no one consciously chooses to be gay, straight or bi

[Captor K]

You don't wake up one morning and say, "Hey, I loves me some penis now!" You don't choose to be straight, nor do you choose to be gay. I'd like to see you try and turn gay, Kaname. It won't work since you won't have an emotional attachment with a guy like you would with a girl.

This.

And, because this is one of those questions that sure as hell ain't go no easy answers (yes, no, maybe, don't give a shit), in the end, people are going to believe whatever they want. This question is old and tiring, and it is usually unproductive because it leads to bitching and differences because of core beliefs. I'm gay and I am of the "don't give a shit" mentality these days. Was I born gay? Possibly. Straight people insist they were born gay, don't they? So would it be that hard to believe about gays? Did I choose to be gay? Fuck no, didn't want it. I chose to be open and honest about who I am, and to quit deceiving friends and others that I cared about.

This sort of question drives me a little insane, next to "how long have you been gay?" that I get all of the time. I don't care about the how or the why part of it anymore when there are kids, teenagers, and adults in agony over their sexual orientation. I have put my energy into helping them accept and love themselves (because God knows, too many kill themselves each year over this shit), and I spend an enormous amount of time explaining to my straight friends how sexuality and sexual orientation really works based on objective information, and not the opinions of others.

I honestly believe the question all of us, collectively, should be asking is not, "How come you're gay?" but "How can I help this person?" There are some questions that we just won't have the answers to at the moment; we can leave that to the scientists to figure it out. There are far more serious issues that we need to address.

That's my take on it.

[lengthy_brochure]

one thing is clear though... it is definitely NOT a choice...no one consciously chooses to be gay, straight or bi
I agree 100%. I've always like guys, I just didn't know the word for it.

...genetics definitely play a role...

I would say that this is highly likely...
I have a gay uncle and a lesbian aunt, both on my mom's side.

[Jagster]

Like every psychiatrist would say, you are always born with it. It is never an option. Others may think it is and you may think it is, but only because you are going through puberty and you want to experiment to find out more about yourself. It's never a choice, bro.

[CaptainObvious]

I was talking with two friends and one thought that you are born with your sexual orientation, while my other friend and I completely disagreed. What do you guys think? Is your sexual orientation something you are born with or is it a choice?

I don't see how you can possibly disagree. I know I didn't choose to be gay, and I'm also sure you didn't choose to be straight. You might be happy that you are straight, and might have chosen to be straight were you given the choice, but you didn't choose it.

Also, remember that just because it's not a choice does not mean it is set from birth. It's entirely possible -and likely - that environmental factors can influence sexuality.

[trackstar9.875]

I was definately BORN that way.

I remember taking a bath with my cousin (female) when we were like 3-4, and I'd look at her and point between her legs and give this awful smirk...like eeeeww!

But when I looked at another boy...it was like...Yeah, I like that.

[overlordmccoy]

Born that way. Most definately, it's possable to choose that, but rather REALLY truely like it is not something you could really choose. For example, do you think I will wake up one morning and say that I'm straight? Then in 2 weeks that I'm not?

(Oh, and slightly off topic fact: Lady Gaga's new album will be called Born This Way)

[Dive to Survive]

Alright, it's interesting to see what other people think on the matter. I'm sure not a psychiatrist, though.

[Perseus]

Alright, it's interesting to see what other people think on the matter. I'm sure not a psychiatrist, though.

You have no individual response? I was hoping for an answer from you for statement.

[The Joker]

Alright, it's interesting to see what other people think on the matter. I'm sure not a psychiatrist, though.

As with Jake, I'm also interested if you have a rebuttal.

[CaptainObvious]

Alright, it's interesting to see what other people think on the matter. I'm sure not a psychiatrist, though.

Without getting into the "REBUT OUR POINTS OUR WE WON'T RESPECT YOU" area... was there a point in your life where you had previously not been attracted to women, said "I have decided that I will be attracted to women" and were attracted to women? I doubt it - and I sure know that that's not how it worked for me. For me (like everyone else) it was a slow process of being attracted to people and then realizing that (in my case) those people were all of one gender - men.

Like, I can understand if you don't approve of gay sex, or gay people, or whatever. I don't agree, but I understand. But this particular issue is something on which both straight and gay people are coming from the same place. (Sorry to be so explicit) Girls were probably getting you hard before the concept that you had to be attracted to one sex or the other even existed. That's just how it is. Other arguments aside, sexual orientation isn't a choice.

[nick]

Even today in many places people that are openly gay face rejection by their family and friends, ridicule and physical abuse for their sexuality. In some places they face execution if found out and during WWII people were sent to the gas chambers in the concentration camps for it. Do you really think anyone would choose that? Its just how you are, like whether you have blue eyes or not.

[JimSauce]

I can tell you from my own experience that people do NOT choose to be gay. I've like guys since elementary school, I even crushed on one before I knew what the word "gay" meant.

Whether you're born with it it is disputable, but homosexuality isn't dictated by an ON/OFF switch. If that were the case, then I would have switched it to OFF and gotten myself a girlfriend a long time ago. :P

[beedubs]

i dont feel it is genetics.

i have never had any gays in my family. i am the first. i mean i might have that one recessive gene that nobody else gets, but i doubt that. and it might have to do with enviroment, but like a said, no gays in my family. my family never brought it up untill now.

who knows why people are gay, and why people are straight. if it was a choice, then that means that some people are choosing to get kicked out of their house, choosing for their parents to not talk to them, choosing to be sent to therapy. (not all, but this happens with some people). my friend reccently told her mom and her mom told her she was no longer part of the family. i highly doubt she would choose that. i honestly dont care why im gay. i dont think about that. all i know is that this is me, and i am who i am.

[DarkHorses]

I don't know how it happens, but I think people are born that way rather than it being a choice. I don't know anyone who would choose to be gay, considering how hard it seems like it might be for people. It might have something to do with the environment the person grows up in, or the way their brain works. But no one wakes up in the morning and just says "I think I'll be gay now."

[CaptainObvious]

i dont feel it is genetics.

i have never had any gays in my family. i am the first. i mean i might have that one recessive gene that nobody else gets, but i doubt that. and it might have to do with enviroment, but like a said, no gays in my family. my family never brought it up untill now.

who knows why people are gay, and why people are straight. if it was a choice, then that means that some people are choosing to get kicked out of their house, choosing for their parents to not talk to them, choosing to be sent to therapy. (not all, but this happens with some people). my friend reccently told her mom and her mom told her she was no longer part of the family. i highly doubt she would choose that. i honestly dont care why im gay. i dont think about that. all i know is that this is me, and i am who i am.

There is definitely a genetic component, because twin studies have shown a statistically significant higher likelihood that one twin will be gay if the other is compared to fraternal twins, which are themselves much more likely than genetically unrelated brothers.

However, it's not like a genetic disease: the factors involved are probably extremely complex, and so it's not like the fact that there's genetics involved means you can only be gay if there were gay people in your family before you, or something.

[Dive to Survive]

Ok, well I'm a Christian and I beleive that God loves everyone equally. But, in the Bible it talks about homosexuality almost as a sin. So I beleive that God wouldn't make you be homosexual because he loves everyone the same and he would give you the choice. Sorry if I don't give you each an individual response but I would hate to offend anyone and if I already have then I am seriously sorry.

[Peace God]

:whiteflag: wow im not doing this again...*walks out*

[CaptainObvious]

Ok, well I'm a Christian and I beleive that God loves everyone equally. But, in the Bible it talks about homosexuality almost as a sin. So I beleive that God wouldn't make you be homosexual because he loves everyone the same and he would give you the choice. Sorry if I don't give you each an individual response but I would hate to offend anyone and if I already have then I am seriously sorry.

Yes, I suspected so. Unfortunately, this is where, when the rubber meets the road, to believe that homosexuality is a sin in Christianity will have you make some assumptions that make no sense. Being gay works exactly the same way as being straight, and that is not by choice. Just like there wasn't a time when you had previously been unattracted to girls, said "I will now be straight" and were attracted to girls, there was no time when previously not-gay people chose to be gay.

So you have to accept one of the following propositions:

God doesn't actually care about giving people no choice in a sexual orientation that will lead them inevitably to what he regards as sin (in which case, what kind of a being is God?).

or

Homosexuality isn't a sin and therefore God gives people no choice in it because he does not regard it as a problem.

or

Sexual orientation is a choice, despite the fact that you know this to be false for yourself, I know it to be false for me, and pretty much everyone else who has thought critically about the issue agrees.

------------------

Moral of the story: deeply believing religious teachings in their literal sense will often force you to make assumptions that are wrong.

[Perseus]

Ok, well I'm a Christian and I beleive that God loves everyone equally. But, in the Bible it talks about homosexuality almost as a sin. So I beleive that God wouldn't make you be homosexual because he loves everyone the same and he would give you the choice. Sorry if I don't give you each an individual response but I would hate to offend anyone and if I already have then I am seriously sorry.

Still, people say they did not choose to be the way they are; doesn't that make you stop and think?

[Kitty Purry]

I agree with everything beedubs said! ^_^

[The Joker]

Ok, well I'm a Christian and I beleive that God loves everyone equally. But, in the Bible it talks about homosexuality almost as a sin. So I beleive that God wouldn't make you be homosexual because he loves everyone the same and he would give you the choice. Sorry if I don't give you each an individual response but I would hate to offend anyone and if I already have then I am seriously sorry.

That's assuming that there is such thing as a God.

[highfieldsboy]

God is another Argument.. but being gay is a gene in your family passed down to you, you are born gay and develop feelings when your body understands it.

[usernamelol]

the bible also says owning slaves is cool, and beating them (so long they don't die) is fine. i'm just trying to say, take the words with a grain of salt. also, you're born that way.

[PJay]

Plus whatever bible you read says
different things anyway so which version we talking about? Not that I can take the intellect of people who come out with crap like that seriously enough to really care what they think about me.


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[Lindsay]

I believe that people are born gay. I mean, I know I was born gay. I knew I liked girls like ever since I was around 5, but I didn't know anything about sexual orientation at all. So, the bottom line is that I do not believe that sexual orientation is a choice.

[Sogeking]

It is a choice, but at the same time its not YOUR choice. Environmental and outside factors play a huge role on your sexuality. There are no genetics involved. If you think otherwise source your statement

[CaptainObvious]

It is a choice, but at the same time its not YOUR choice. Environmental and outside factors play a huge role on your sexuality. There are no genetics involved. If you think otherwise source your stetement

Your statement here is entirely ignorant of the many studies performed on twins that show a significantly higher level of sexual orientation concordance for monozygotic (identical) vs. dizygotic (fraternal) twins, and a higher level of concordance for dizygotic.

Since you want citations:

This (http://www.springerlink.com/content/2263646523551487/) is a recently published paper that used as data all adult twins in Sweden, to correct possible volunteer biases.

and

Hershberger, Scott L. 2001. Biological Factors in the Development of Sexual Orientation. Pp. 27–51 in Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual Identities and Youth: Psychological Perspectives, edited by Anthony R. D’Augelli and Charlotte J. Patterson. Oxford, New York: Oxford University Press. Quoted in Bearman and Bruckner, 2002.

is a citation for a meta-analysis of many previous twin studies on the subject.

Either way, you're absolutely wrong to say there is no genetic component.

[Billy15]

OK, my opinion, take it or leave it lol.

First off, Ryan has as much right to believe what he believes as any of us do and if he is a Christian and chooses to follow his faith word by word without deviation, then that is also his right and I respect him for that. I don't agree with his perspective but that is also my right and my belief but then I am gay, so perhaps I see things differently simply because of that.

Ryan, what I do know is that if I honestly had a choice to be straight or gay, I would choose "straight" and I know lots of other guys that would as well. Admitting to myself that I was gay, was the hardest thing I ever did and every single day I now live a secret life (my parents don't know, my friends don't know) and it's hard really hard.

It's true, the bible does make references to homosexuality but like someone else posted, it also makes references to having sex with children, killing children, stoning people, owning slaves, saying it's alright to beat your slaves so for me (and me alone) I've chosen to not take the bible literally because if I did, then I would have to also believe that it's alright to have sex with my neighbors little girl and that's not happening.

I've known I was different ever since I was 11-12 and I just don't think that kids that age decide to be gay. I also think if it were a choice, then why are so many gay kids killing themselves because they can't live with being gay? Why don't they simply choose to be straight?

Another thing that you might want to check into is that (and this has been scientifically proven) there are gay animals, gay plants, gay birds and if God didn't make them that way, then who did?

I believe we are born the way God wishes us to be (I don't know why) but it's not my job to second judge the Lord. I believe he has his reasons and hopefully one day I will discover what those reasons are but I do know for a fact, it is not my choice to be gay.

[PJay]

Well I'm really glad you are billy. And I definately dont want to be straight. But I think that has to
do with the fact there is less hate and ignorance around me where I live about my sexuality. So I can understand why you say that.


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[Dive to Survive]

Your statement here is entirely ignorant of the many studies performed on twins that show a significantly higher level of sexual orientation concordance for monozygotic (identical) vs. dizygotic (fraternal) twins, and a higher level of concordance for dizygotic.

I don't understand what you're saying. I guess my comprehension isn't that good. :D

And thanks Billy.

[CaptainObvious]

I don't understand what you're saying. I guess my comprehension isn't that good. :D

And thanks Billy.

In fairness my second sentence somehow didn't get finished, so... :P

What that quoted section meant is this: identical twins are much more likely to have the same sexual orientation than fraternal twins are likely to have the same orientation, and fraternal twins are more likely to have the same orientation than non-twin brothers. This proves that there is at least some level of genetics at play in sexual orientation.

[Perseus]

I don't understand what you're saying. I guess my comprehension isn't that good. :D

And thanks Billy.

You still are dodging the whole issue how people do not wake up morning and start liking penis. Don't pick and choose what you want to respond to because it contradicts your beliefs. People are saying they do not choose the lifestyle they have, but yet, you have no intellectual response to it.

[Nobody]

I agree with Billy, completely.

I don't know where homosexuality comes from, the only thing I know is that it's not a choice. As it's been said many times before - who would deliberately choose a life much more complicated? Don't get me wrong, I don't complain. I'm okay with being gay and I'm proud. But admitting it to yourself and coming out and so on... those weren't exactly the easiest times ever.
Maybe it's genetics - but no one's gay in my family except me. Maybe it's environmental and outside factors - but I've always been gay, since ever. I first liked a girl when I was like... 4? And none of the people around me were gay. Back then I didn't even know what it meant.
So... hard to say.

[Dive to Survive]

In fairness my second sentence somehow didn't get finished, so... :P

What that quoted section meant is this: identical twins are much more likely to have the same sexual orientation than fraternal twins are likely to have the same orientation, and fraternal twins are more likely to have the same orientation than non-twin brothers. This proves that there is at least some level of genetics at play in sexual orientation.

So, if you have an identical twin than you'll have the same sexual orientation as them? Or you'll be homosexual?

[CaptainObvious]

So, if you have an identical twin than you'll have the same sexual orientation as them? Or you'll be homosexual?

The first, though it's a statistical thing and therefore not guaranteed. So what your sentence should read is "identical twins are much more likely to have the same sexual orientation as each other than non-identical twins or normal brothers/sisters."

[willrod]

Anyone who says it's a choice to be gay obviously doesn't understand what it's like, seeing as they're not in our shoes. And I feel sorry for them. I struggled for quite some time over being gay, and let me tell you- if I had a choice back then, I'd probably have chosen to be straight. But now, I'm proud of who I am- everything about me, and being gay is part of that. I've since realized that God still loves me for who I am. I also realize that God made me gay for a reason- to have empathy for other oppressed groups, and to spread a message of peace to the world. So if, for some reason, scientists say they've come up with a "cure" for being gay (as if it's some disease! Ha!), I most certainly would stay the way that I am, thank you very much!

[PJay]

Any thought that a cure is needed comes from a dark place. With the world population outstripping resources the last thing we need are more 'breeders" . There are gay animals in nature to give more carers for kids and more hunters etc. and I believe we exist for a reason too. On the other end of that there seem to be a lot of stupid macho straight guys who seem to cause a lot of the problems in society. Perhaps they are the ones who need a cure?

(And I am NOT implying all straight guys are a problem, just a certain type)


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[Syvelocin]

I also do think it has something to do with your personality. At least with considering yourself to be of a different sexuality. If you were raised to believe that homosexuality is wrong, a sin, you're going to hell for it, and it is a choice, if you're actually gay, you're probably going to excuse it and call yourself straight. That's why I think that there are so many more LGBT peoples in the younger generations, than the older generations. Before, it was a huge no-no. Now, we have different sources telling is that it's okay. It's still considered a "sin," but we have celebrities who are homosexual and GLSAs and all those great factors.

I do think it's genetics too. I know people are born like that. I just like to think about my own experiences. I thought I was a lesbian before I even knew what the word meant. Then, I liked a guy, and never felt the same about a girl. Until about another six years later, when I liked my first girl. When I admitted to myself that I was attracted to her, then my eyes were opened. I had liked girls all along :P I just wasn't open-minded enough to see it.

[willrod]

Any thought that a cure is needed comes from a dark place. With the world population outstripping resources the last thing we need are more 'breeders" . There are gay animals in nature to give more carers for kids and more hunters etc. and I believe we exist for a reason too. On the other end of that there seem to be a lot of stupid macho straight guys who seem to cause a lot of the problems in society. Perhaps they are the ones who need a cure?

(And I am NOT implying all straight guys are a problem, just a certain type)


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Exactly! I think it's extremely sad that there are so many straight couples who end up having kids when they're incapable of even raising a hamster. And yet they even have the right to get married and everything! But there are so many gay and lesbian couples who would make great parents that are denied the opportunity to adopt needy kids. For instance, I'm not sure if this is still the case, but in Florida, gay couples aren't allowed to adopt. And in most states, only one partner is allowed to adopt- if something were to happen to them, the other parent could very easily have their child taken away from them.

People need to wake up- we've always been here throughout human history, and we're here to stay. Only this time we've had enough- we've sat by taking all sort of abuse for too long. We're here, we're queer, and we're fighting back!

[Christiaan]

Yer born with it. If ya think yer not, tell me or try remembering when ya made the choice to be gay or straight?

It works both ways, if gays have to choose to be gay, then straights have to choose too. When did you choose?

[lengthy_brochure]

Yeah, I hear a lot of people say "well the bible says..."

Well, the bible was written thousands of years ago. Life was quite different. Also, to get to English it had to be translated. Remember that it started out as a Catholic book, and consider this.

Bottom line, the bible has many good life lessons and stories in it. You can take the big ideas and use them. However, small things should be seriously taken with a grain of salt and possibly ignored, because of the factors above.

[redmann]

Well im not super smart or anything but i do know this, that i did not wake up and decide to be gay. i know you dont just choose it. because if there was any way to make my family disapointed with me being gay would be it. and i would never want to disappoint them cause i love them. but it comes down to this. should i lie to myself and live a normal "straight" life and be miserable? Or should i be true to myself and disappoint them? being gay is certainly not a choice.

[beardedboy]

This.

And, because this is one of those questions that sure as hell ain't go no easy answers (yes, no, maybe, don't give a shit), in the end, people are going to believe whatever they want. This question is old and tiring, and it is usually unproductive because it leads to bitching and differences because of core beliefs. I'm gay and I am of the "don't give a shit" mentality these days. Was I born gay? Possibly. Straight people insist they were born gay, don't they? So would it be that hard to believe about gays? Did I choose to be gay? Fuck no, didn't want it. I chose to be open and honest about who I am, and to quit deceiving friends and others that I cared about.

This sort of question drives me a little insane, next to "how long have you been gay?" that I get all of the time. I don't care about the how or the why part of it anymore when there are kids, teenagers, and adults in agony over their sexual orientation. I have put my energy into helping them accept and love themselves (because God knows, too many kill themselves each year over this shit), and I spend an enormous amount of time explaining to my straight friends how sexuality and sexual orientation really works based on objective information, and not the opinions of others.

I honestly believe the question all of us, collectively, should be asking is not, "How come you're gay?" but "How can I help this person?" There are some questions that we just won't have the answers to at the moment; we can leave that to the scientists to figure it out. There are far more serious issues that we need to address.

That's my take on it.

I love this explanation, it is well put and well explained. Props to you sir. :)

[teenmanchester]

definitely born gay, after i realised i was gay, you look back at certain moments in your life when something happened and it just makes sense, do not believe its a choice

[Sogeking]

Don't bump old threads please.

:locked: