Polygamy and yes civil unions! (dun dun dun)

[cmpcmp]

This was, at least i think, a pretty good debate a while ago, and seeing as how there are new ppl and new stuff in general... well lets do it.
-------------------------------------------------------------
according to Bertrand Russel (a "real" pohilisopher who i don't always agree with)

It is generally assumed without question that the state has a right to punish certain kinds of sexual irregularity. No one doubts that the Mormons sincerely believed polygamy to be a desirable practice, yet the United States required them to abandon its legal recognition, and probably any other Christian country would have done likewise. Nevertheless, I do not think this prohibition was wise. Polygamy is legally permitted in many parts of the world, but is not much practised except by chiefs and potentates. If, as Europeans generally believe, it is an undesirable custom, it is probable that the Mormons would have soon abandoned it, except perhaps for a few men of exceptional position. If, on the other hand, it had proved a successful experiment, the world would have acquired a piece of knowledge which it is now unable to possess. I think in all such cases the law should only intervene when there is some injury inflicted without the consent of the injured person.
http://www.gwiep.net/library/Russell_-_Political_Ideals.html

This was writen in 1940ish i think, but it still works. IMO it also applies to civil unions.
IMHO
-unless someone hurts or is forced or something like that on some one, neither polygamy or civilunions should be ilegall.
-though i belive the above, I do think that both are "wrong", just like i belive that sleeping around a lot is wrong. But all three (civil unions, polygamy, sleeping around) should be legall IMO as no one is hurt with out their own consent.
-so the exceptions would include things like; having ur marrige aranged, being intimidated into the relationship or w/e.
------------------------------------------------------
-IF u post here please please don't start flaming no matter who you are, or what u belive.
-Also please put ur opinion on both of the issues THE LEGALLITY (u don't have to say anything about wether u personaly think its wrong, unless it relates to ur stance) of, Civil Uniouns AND Polgamy.

please try and explain as best u can why think what u think. I say this mainly cuz many ppl think that civil unions are OK and that Polygamy is wrong "just Because it is", which i think we can agree isn't very good reasoning.
--------------------------------------------
On a little bit of a side note there are some very interesting parallels to both issues that become more aparent as both sides argue.

[Makod]

I wholly support polygamy (:P) and civil unions.


I have a question:
l.
-though i belive the above, I do think that both are "wrong", just like i belive that sleeping around a lot is wrong. But all three (civil unions, polygamy, sleeping around) should be legall IMO as no one is hurt with out their own consent.
Why do you believe that these are wrong?

Also: a poll would be appropriate for this thread.

[Phantom]

Polygamy=NO Civil union=YES

[cmpcmp]

I disagree, its better to have someone have to say why they believe a certian way, than just what they belive (which often happens in polls).
----------------------
It isn't importiant (well it is, just not to this thread) why i think that they are wrong, last time it turned into a why is this and this wrong. The LEGALLity of it should be discusseus, as this is a lot less subjective. If we can iscolate the issue the debate is a lot better and concise. If u would like to discuss the right/wrongness of it, create a thread for that.
-when debates get convoluted they become very bad very quickly (IE:(title) is the universe infinite? specificly on this site will generaly make it was to a response of something like "BUSH IS AN IDIOT" 'OR LIBERALS AR HIPPIES THAT JUST WANT TO DO LSD" i don't consider things like these to be good for a debate.)
-But do notice that if ur reasoning was "it should be ilegall because i consider it wrong" (invalid reasoning IMO, but....) i put an exception in there for u.

[cmpcmp]

Polygamy=NO Civil union=YES
ITS NOT A POLL!!!!! (u to Makod, put some reasoning)
did u read the first post?
(from the first post)
-Also please put ur opinion on both of the issues THE LEGALLITY (u don't have to say anything about wether u personaly think its wrong, unless it relates to ur stance) of, Civil Uniouns AND Polgamy.

please try and explain as best u can why think what u think. I say this mainly cuz many ppl think that civil unions are OK and that Polygamy is wrong "just Because it is", which i think we can agree isn't very good reasoning.

[Makod]

Ok. Who are we to decide what's right and what's wrong? No matter what we say on the matter it will always be an opinion. Making laws based on opinions is deffinitely not a good way of running things.

[cmpcmp]

Makod. Im confused. Wan't that my reasoning for making any potential discussion on that a new thread?

-In case i wan't clear, provide why you think that Legally polygamy and civilunios should, shouldn't, (or one of each) be legall.

So should there be a law? what should it be and why?

[Makod]

:sigh:

There should be no laws barring any type of marriage, and I have already given my reasons.

[cmpcmp]

(U may have implied agreement in ur first post, ir so say so please)
I wholly support polygamy () and civil unions.

Ok. Who are we to decide what's right and what's wrong? No matter what we say on the matter it will always be an opinion. Making laws based on opinions is deffinitely not a good way of running things.

:sigh:
There should be no laws barring any type of marriage, and I have already given my reasons.
this is all that you have writen....
there isn't any reasoning here.

for example I said
IMHO
-unless someone hurts or is forced or something like that on some one, neither polygamy or civilunions should be ilegall.
-though i belive the above, I do think that both are "wrong", just like i belive that sleeping around a lot is wrong. But all three (civil unions, polygamy, sleeping around) should be legall IMO as no one is hurt with out their own consent.
-so the exceptions would include things like; having ur marrige aranged, being intimidated into the relationship or w/e.
----------------------------------------------
There should be no laws barring any type of marriage
-DO you really mean this literaly? or are u excluding things like marrying children, family members and such? (which i think you are)

[Makod]

this is all that you have writen....
there isn't any reasoning here.
You blind?
-DO you really mean this literaly? or are u excluding things like marrying children, family members and such? (which i think you are)

Marrying family members is proven to be physically unhealthy. Children are not intelligent enough to make a decision like marriage. Everything else, as long as it's not forced, is fine with me.

[cmpcmp]

no.....
wholly support polygamy () and civil unions.


I have a question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmpcmp
l.
-though i belive the above, I do think that both are "wrong", just like i belive that sleeping around a lot is wrong. But all three (civil unions, polygamy, sleeping around) should be legall IMO as no one is hurt with out their own consent.

Why do you believe that these are wrong?

Also: a poll would be appropriate for this thread.

Ok. Who are we to decide what's right and what's wrong? No matter what we say on the matter it will always be an opinion. Making laws based on opinions is deffinitely not a good way of running things.

:sigh:

There should be no laws barring any type of marriage, and I have already given my reasons.
that is every word u have posted on this thread (besides the last one) , I see no reasons for ur stance. Perhaps i am blind if so repost ur reasons somehow.

[Makod]

Who are we to decide what's right and what's wrong? No matter what we say on the matter it will always be an opinion. Making laws based on opinions is deffinitely not a good way of running things.

There is my reasoning.

You think it requires a paragraph? Cause the answer and way of getting to it is quite simple.

[cmpcmp]

Who are we to decide what's right and what's wrong? No matter what we say on the matter it will always be an opinion. Making laws based on opinions is deffinitely not a good way of running things.
-So u belive that the laws are based on opinions, and nothing else so there for the reasoning behind them is invalid.
--Ok got it, i was just confused
-------------------------------------------------------
one the other hand, Phantom
Polygamy=NO Civil union=YES
there definitly isn't any reasoning here, could you please try to explain ur reasoning?

[redcar]

ah the good old polygamy arguement is back i see, simply polygamy i say no to, civil unions yes.

[Phantom]

one the other hand, Phantom

there definitly isn't any reasoning here, could you please try to explain ur reasoning?Ok. It causes MAJOR family problems. If you had 2 wifes kids with each of them, it would be one messed up family. I highly doubt 2 women would marry 1 man. The wives would most likly hate each other. Polygamy is impractical and just plain wrong.

[TheWizard]

I don't think the government should be sex police.

[Phantom]

I don't think the government should be sex police.Gay marrige and whatnot is fine, but polygamy just plain won't work, and would do more harm than good. If girls get so pissed if you have another girl friend just think about another wife.

[cmpcmp]

ah the good old polygamy arguement is back i see, simply polygamy i say no to, civil unions yes.
care to reason that out at all?
(please read the first post, if u didn't)
----------------------------------------------------
Phantom just to remind u if u forgot READ THE FIRST POST
---------------------------------
Plus I think that its importiant that i point out that, When ever in this thred thread that i say polygamy, i mean a "union" (sexual) between two or more people, in it the man (if there is a man) doesn't get to choose another wife if his/her current partener(s) don't want that to happen.

It causes MAJOR family problems. if you had 2 wifes kids with each of them, it would be one messed up family. I highly doubt 2 women would marry 1 man. The wives would most likly hate each other. Polygamy is impractical and just plain wrong.
Wouldn't growing up in a gay family cause huge family problems? u can't have children of your own, may not be accepted by the community, U would have 2 moms and no dad, or viceversa.
Plus, what if in a "civil union" (lesbian) two woman with their own kids came and got married? isn't it the same situation, just with no hussband?

if you had 2 wifes kids with each of them, it would be one messed up family
Ever heard of half siblings? Plus the wives get to choose to be there or not, if they felt this would be a problem they simply wouldn't get married.

I highly doubt 2 women would marry 1 man. as the quote in the first post says, I agree, there wouldn't be very many, but it being a minority shouldn't make it an less legall.

The wives would most likly hate each other.
I would just like to poin out again that it isn't a male dominated relationship, there don't even have to be any males in it! It must be mutualy agreeable to all parties involved.

Polygamy is impractical and just plain wrong.
Being impractical shouldn't make something any less legall. AND being "wrong" in more of a moral sense shouldn't make something illegal either.

[cmpcmp]

Gay marrige and whatnot is fine, but polygamy just plain won't work, and would do more harm than good. If girls get so pissed if you have another girl friend just think about another wife.
-Polygamy isn't for every body, only IMO very few select people would choose it. There don't even have to be men in it, and UR whole
if girls get so pissed if you have another girl friend just think about another wife.
Is irelivent, they would know that you had another wife/husband, and knowingly join the reationship. ITS BY CHOICE
------------------------------------
(added)
TheWizard, get some reasoning in there and please read the first post

[cmpcmp]

On one that posted here as if i had simply created a poll is willing to justify their position? this was a really long detabe a while ago, there is much to discuss.... especialy for ppl that go one way and no the other.

[cmpcmp]

ok, but what do you think about polygamy?

"Polygamist unions"?

[Phantom]

The only people that are against gay marrige are christians.

[cmpcmp]

The only people that are against gay marrige are christians.
why are you agaist people having a polygamist union that they decide to go into willingly and they all have to agree on more members? No one gets hurt and no one is forced in to anything. Yet you are agaist it? WHy is this?

If the ppl get to decide whos into, then ur situation of jealosly doesn't make since. Besides all of the members could be the same sex, or even bisexual.

[Phantom]

Ok well I guess I don't realy care about polygamist because anything I say can be said about gay marrige which is fine with me.
It has been burned into my head that it is wrong.

[cmpcmp]

It has been burned into my head that it is wrong.
Is this your reasoning for not supporting polygamist unions?

[Phantom]

I have changed my mind. Kinda.
On one hand I don't realy care.
On the other hand I just think its not right.

[cmpcmp]

I have changed my mind. Kinda.
On one hand I don't realy care.
On the other hand I just think its not right.
you think its not right and thats good reasoning for opposing it?

[cmpcmp]

just awnser these two questions
-do you think that Polygamy should be illegal,
-and why do you think this?

answer truthfully, and you may learn something.

[Phantom]

just awnser these two questions
-do you think that Polygamy should be illegal,
-and why do you think this?

answer truthfully, and you may learn something.Hmm I think it should be illegal because it just feels as if it isnt right.
I believe that when you get married its a bond a promise between TWO people that want to share their lives toghether.
That deep enough for you.
Well I guess the same can be said for gay marrige.

[Phantom]

Well then you are going against your bible.

[Phantom]

No."If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)So if you support gay marrige you are going against your bible.

[cmpcmp]

Hmm I think it should be illegal because it just feels as if it isnt right.
I believe that when you get married its a bond a promise between TWO people that want to share their lives toghether.
That deep enough for you.
Well I guess the same can be said for gay marrige.

don't you see it?
-first off, it wouldn't be "marrige" in a definition sense, its a "union" if u wan't to be nit pickey about it. So it doesn't have to be shackled by the definition of some thing that it isn't (as civil unions aren't either for the saem reason).

When you really look down into it ur reasoning is that it should be illegal (or not recognozed as a union) is because....
-you think it is moraly wrong (biblical?) (again Most peope think that sleeping around is wrong, but should it be illegal?)
-you think that it is gross, or strange, or unfarmiliar
-you think that people who practice it are bad as a stereotype.
-But most of all, you have been TAUGHT (indirectly) that it is wrong

all of these are perhaps good reasons to not be friends with polygamists or to not be associated with them, but should it be illegal just because some people don't like it? people would probly get hurt, as many do in love, but it would be a relationship with only willing participants, and only new ones could be admited with everyones consent.
------------------------------------------
You were exactly right, every thing can be said the same way for civil unions, but you support thoes and not polygamist unions, can you tell us why?
-I guessing that it doesn't feel wrong to you, but why is that? and why does it feel "wrong" to many other people?

[Phantom]

This is why I hate the bible^^^.
So many contradictions.

[cmpcmp]

Well I guess the same can be said for gay marrige.
yes so then why don't you support polygamist unions?

[cmpcmp]

This thread (IF YOU READ THE FIRST POST) is for the discussion of the LEGALITY of civil unions/polygamist unions not about what the bible says about it, unless that's your arguing that the bible should be consulted in this matter (legal).

please stay on track and say where you stand, and why. Plus please answer my question. Phantom
Well I guess the same can be said for gay marrrige.
-yes so then why don't you support polygamist unions?

[xTheLordsServantx]

NO NO NO NO NO

Lets live Christian lives according to Christ. We dont have to be Christian fanatics, but if we allow polygamy, which is not accepted in the Bible, then what doors will that open?

Before u know it, it will be legal to steal and kill. If we start allowing small things, eventually our society which should be based on Christian law, will take an extreme downfall, and eventually undermine all ethics needed to uphold a strong society.

VOTE NO TO GAY MARRIAGE AND POLYGAMY!

[Phantom]

VOTE NO To FASCIST CHRISTIAN GOVERNMENT!

[redcar]

excuse me sunshine. so you are saying that if i was able to marry who i wanted to, that would cause the downfall of society and stealing would be legalised? you really need to wake up and smell the coffee and stop being so narrow minded, cause what you are saying is bullshit.

[xTheLordsServantx]

excuse me sunshine. so you are saying that if i was able to marry who i wanted to, that would cause the downfall of society and stealing would be legalised? you really need to wake up and smell the coffee and stop being so narrow minded, cause what you are saying is bullshit.

dude no need to get heated

what i say makes sense, but ur just being narrow minded as u have always been. ur the one who needs to wake up and get real

[Phantom]

LOL redcar is being narrow minded?!!
Your the one that basically says that homosexuals are going to burn in hell for eternity for their evil sins.
Just think for ONE second that other people might to believe the same as you!!! *shock horror*
Think for one second that YOUR religion might not be right.

[cmpcmp]

Hey redcar,
can you please explain to us why you oppose polygamy?
I remember last time you could only come up with that it was because of how you were raised, and it didn't feel right.

[redcar]

dude no need to get heated

what i say makes sense, but ur just being narrow minded as u have always been. ur the one who needs to wake up and get real
oh trust me i am not getting heated.

please do tell me how i am being narrow minded? enlighten me!



Hey redcar,
can you please explain to us why you oppose polygamy?
I remember last time you could only come up with that it was because of how you were raised, and it didn't feel right.

if gone through this all before, but in summary i am opposed to polygamy because i beleive that marriage is about love and with polygamy there are no boundries. like what can stop me marrying my whole town? i could say i love my town so i want to marry everyone in it. at the moment i believe that marraige is an institution that should be granted the respect it deserves and with polygamy, and reasons i have gone through before, would lessen the value of the institution.

[Phantom]

Well since I believe in the libertarian philosophy more I say live and let be.
I don't see anything wrong with it so who cares.

I also believe that marriage should have zero government and church involvement in it. It should also not get any "special" benefits. It should be more of a pact or promise between two or more people that love each other regardless of gender.

[cmpcmp]

but if we allow polygamy, which is not accepted in the Bible
lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

HAVE YOU LOOKED IN THE BIBLE LATELY????
guess who were polygamists
Abdon* Abijah Abraham Ahab Ahasuerus
Ashur Belshazzar Benhadad Caleb David
Eliphaz Elkanah Esau Ezra Gideon
Heman* Hosea* Ibzan* Issachar** Jacob
Jair* Jehoiachin Jehoram Jerahmeel Joash
Lamech Machir Manasseh Mered Moses
Nahor Rehoboam Saul Shaharaim Shimei*
Simeon Solomon Terah* Zedekiah Ziba*

want the quotes for each?
http://www.biblicalpolygamy.com/polygamists/

[cmpcmp]

Marriage doesn't have to change at all, all that I'm saying is a "contract" that allows more than one person the basic things that marrige allows, like medical decisions, $stuff, divorce, stuff relating to kids and what not.
How does that effect marriage?

[Phantom]

lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

HAVE YOU LOOKED IN THE BIBLE LATELY????
guess who were polygamists
Abdon* Abijah Abraham Ahab Ahasuerus
Ashur Belshazzar Benhadad Caleb David
Eliphaz Elkanah Esau Ezra Gideon
Heman* Hosea* Ibzan* Issachar** Jacob
Jair* Jehoiachin Jehoram Jerahmeel Joash
Lamech Machir Manasseh Mered Moses
Nahor Rehoboam Saul Shaharaim Shimei*
Simeon Solomon Terah* Zedekiah Ziba*

want the quotes for each?
http://www.biblicalpolygamy.com/polygamists/OMFG owned

[Makod]

NO NO NO NO NO

Lets live Christian lives according to Christ.
our society which should be based on Christian law
How about... no.

Polygamy destroys the concept of marriage in my opinion.
just because it's a tradition, doesn't mean it's right.
So yeah, just because it's tradition to have one spouse doesn't make it the only way.

[cmpcmp]

exactly ^^^^^

[Makod]

Just because it's not a tradition doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed, that's a stupid argument to make.

Guess what, everyone in the world has opinions and none of them are "right."

[cmpcmp]

It's not a tradition for people to marry their pets so are you going to allow that, too?
I never said that any thing that isn't traditional is right, I'm saying that something not traditional shouldn't be dismissed just because it isn't traditional. Instead you should use reason and try and decide whether it is OK or NOT.

I consider myself to be open minded and open to new things. But just because I disagree with something doesn't make me closed minded either. I believe polygamy destroys the concept of marriage and/or family. It's what I've known and believed to be right.
SO it would destroy the family aye?

In my arguments I'm talking about legality as in the ability to do something legally, thats what this whole argument is, in "reality" I disagree with the morality or w/e you want to call it of polygamy. But what I'm saying is that the right to be able to do something is more important than what its effects are on "the family" as in real life how many polygamist couples do you think that there really would be? Plus doesn't gay marriage also "destroy" the family?

with that same reasoning in mind then shouldn't anything that "destroys" the family be illegal? I don't think that thats very good reasoning to make something illegal. Do you really think that polygamist unions being legal would have that large of effect on "the family" I mean really? is 2 person marriage the only thing that is keeping it from falling apart?

[cmpcmp]

First an answer to the "dog or animal" question
-Dogs aren't capable of accepting a marital contract, they lack the mental capacity, they can't make medical/financial/contractual/etc decisions in place of their spouse (see its reason, not tradition)
------------------------
I really don't see why you're arguing for polygamy when you think it's morally wrong.
-Why do people who aren't gay support gay marriage?
-Why do people support the right to free speech, even for stances that they see as "wrong" or "unpopular"

-my friend its called FREEDOM, and the freedom to disagree. I can support the freedom of whoever, where ever, and it doesn't make my personal stance on the issue involved.
-I disagree with communism, because I think that it is a practice that inevitably either fails (in a short time) or ends up in dictatorship. So then why don't I want any mention of it to be banned? and anyone who is found to be a communist punished? and one who runs for office as a communist arrested?
--I don't want the things listed because communism isn't really hurting any one, and it would have to be democratically imposed (choice), just like polygamy isn't hurting anyone. (as i described it, not as a male dominated sex slavery type thing) I believe that some ones freedom to do something is more important than my simple disliking or w/e with it, unless it has GOOD reason to be illegal then it shouldn't be illegal.

-Also it counters what I get told every time I hear about same sex marrige.
-People will say that hey "you don't like same sex marriage because your close minded" or "your a christian BIGGOT" or "your a homophobe" or "your just intolerant" or "your just not secure with your sexuality" or W/E

I'm intolerant, prejudgment, or w/e? O.K. fine what do you think about marrige with 3 or more people, where involvement is completely by choice and new partners can only be added if all parties agree?

generally the response that you get gives no reasoning what so ever, but when there are reasons, they look like....
-Thats not what marriage is
-That demeans that true meaning of marriage
-That would do _________ to marriage
-Thats gross
-Thats wrong
-Thats against the bible (still loling)
-Thats not culturally acceptable

the funny thing is that all of these arguments can ALL be used against gay marriage, and the biblical one with a lot more credibility,

finally, it makes the "ur close minded or w/e" person hypocritical, they are not accepting of a group of people that are in love, and are being hampered by the person in questions closmindedness.

[cmpcmp]

there are three, or more, person contracts made all of the time. they are made then multiple people own a company, or anything like a house, car, rights to music or basically any other thing. You can make a contract for joint ownership of just about anything you want.
Divorce is hard on children no matter what kind of relationship their parents had.
And i think that you are underestimating the complexity of the current system. there are many cases where more than two people are trying to get custody of a child, usually it involves the parents being unfit to raise the children but still, a parent vs. parent vs. grand mother vs. state custody vs. step father or W/E can happen.

The strange thing is that there are polygamist couples out there (not very many) some are because of religious beliefs and some aren't, but the point is that they are out there and they aren't "illegal" because the government doesn't stop people from living with/having babies with/"marrying"(not in a legal sense) more than 1 person at a time, just like they don't make homosexual relationships illegal, they just don't give them legal marriage status.

Plus do you really think that it being really complicated is good reason to make it illegal? If every thing that was really complex in the legal system was made illegal no one would have to pay taxes lol. Something being really complicated shouldn't decide whether or not it is legally recognized. I assure you that there are many things more complex than a three way legal battle for custody of (a) child(ren).

Plus are you listening to what you are saying? that point amounts to something like "your love for each other is too legally complex, so it shouldn't be legally recognized."

[xTheLordsServantx]

Your the one that basically says that homosexuals are going to burn in hell for eternity for their evil sins.
quote]

When did i say that again. Please put the quote here. Thanks.

[quote=Phantom;112494]Well since I believe in the libertarian philosophy more I say live and let be.
I don't see anything wrong with it so who cares.

I also believe that marriage should have zero government and church involvement in it. It should also not get any "special" benefits. It should be more of a pact or promise between two or more people that love each other regardless of gender.

Wow, that has to be the most retarted thing ive heard in a year!

[Phantom]

[quote=Phantom]Your the one that basically says that homosexuals are going to burn in hell for eternity for their evil sins.
quote]You WERE the one that made a fucking thead about how gays have to turn or burn.

When did i say that again. Please put the quote here. Thanks.



Wow, that has to be the most retarted thing ive heard in a year!You have got to be the most retarded person I have ever seen on here.
O yeah You WERE the one that made a fucking thead about how gays have to turn or burn. Mortal sins and all that shit were you not. I shall find it