Greek Genocide Debate.

[Tiberius]

Number 1- That is ENGLISH wikipedia, it also says there is a greek genocide nonsense, stop showing wikipedia as any resource people.


Wow. Just. Wow.

http://www.greek-genocide.org/index1.html

In 1914, the Turks murdered hundreds of thousands of Greeks simply for the kicks and yet you deny that it ever happened. What else to you deny, the existence of gravity or maybe the Holocaust?

[Azunite]

Simply LoL,
So, it doesn't say a shit when Greeks invaded İzmir without any REASON and kicked Turks and drove them to Ankara, then burnd the entire city when we kicked their ass back!
And EXCUSE ME ? What did you expect, of course we will kill people who invaded our country?
it says 1914-23. That means it started at WW1 and ended with War of Independence.
Now I WOULD call it a genocide if we kept killing Greeks after the war!
But Greeks were ENEMIES in WW1, Greeks were ARCH-ENEMIES in war of independence. Why do you call it genocide?
Okay then, England and France were our enemies in WW2 too so there is also a British and French genocide.
In WW2 at the last six months Germany was our enemy, then there is also a German genocide.
Greeks won't stop putting lies on us, or exxagerating things until Turkey is gone.
And Tiberius, shouldn't you be rotting for centuries in a Roman cemetary? ( :) )

[Tiberius]

What about the massacre of the Greeks inside Turkey? What about the Pontus Greeks?

[Azunite]

Pontus Greeks, what about them ?
In WW1, Pontus Greeks created gangs to sabotage Turkish supply lines and killed Turkish families. THen we created our OWN gangs to hunt them down.
However, families and friends were diffrent of course. Our teacher told us that some turks were hiding greeks in their basement from local cops and some greeks were hiding turks from local greek gangs

And massacre of Greeks inside turkey I think I talkd about that what are you referring to ?

[The Dark Lord]

Sorry I am missing few posts because I am giving a history lesson here,
what would be every day ?

You've been giving a history lesson? So thats me received a modern studies lecture this afternoon and now Tiberius is receiving a history lesson, if only us mortals were as intelligent and as well read as you.

[huginnmuninn]

i think its funny how some probably biased history book with half the facts missing can apparently teach more than stories told from people who were actually there. yes they are probably biased too but they usually give more insight into what happened and usually wont make up stuff

[deadpie]

Sorry I am missing few posts because I am giving a history lesson here,
what would be every day ?

You seem like you're getting off topic. The second your sentence in that thread doesn't make any sense to me. What are you saying again?

[Azunite]

Anyone have an idea, wil it be big or small ?

Oh and deadpie, sorry I missed the topic because I had to correct some lies and other stuff.
This ALWAY happens in VT Ramblings of the Wise topics, it always goes out of the topic, even if the topic is simple'!

[The Dark Lord]

Anyone have an idea, wil it be big or small ?

Oh and deadpie, sorry I missed the topic because I had to correct some lies and other stuff.
This ALWAY happens in VT Ramblings of the Wise topics, it always goes out of the topic, even if the topic is simple'!

You weren't correcting lies, you were disputing facts.

[Azunite]

You aren't greek or turkish, how would you know?
Our old Greek family friends say there wasn't a genocide, all made up by Greek government to get İzmir they say, hmm, how strange...

[The Dark Lord]

You aren't greek or turkish, how would you know?
Our old Greek family friends say there wasn't a genocide, all made up by Greek government to get İzmir they say, hmm, how strange...

Of course seeing as I'm not greek or turkish I couldn't possible know, I couldn't research the subject on the internet, read a book on it or be told about it because I'm not turkish. Using your logic you don't know who the Prime Minister of Great Britain because your aren't british.

[Azunite]

His name is David Cameron :D
And research is one thing real life witness is one thing.

[The Dark Lord]

His name is David Cameron :D
And research is one thing real life witness is one thing.

I couldn't agree more.

Simply LoL,
So, it doesn't say a shit when Greeks invaded İzmir without any REASON and kicked Turks and drove them to Ankara, then burnd the entire city when we kicked their ass back!
And EXCUSE ME ? What did you expect, of course we will kill people who invaded our country?
it says 1914-23. That means it started at WW1 and ended with War of Independence.
Now I WOULD call it a genocide if we kept killing Greeks after the war!
But Greeks were ENEMIES in WW1, Greeks were ARCH-ENEMIES in war of independence. Why do you call it genocide?
Okay then, England and France were our enemies in WW2 too so there is also a British and French genocide.
In WW2 at the last six months Germany was our enemy, then there is also a German genocide.
Greeks won't stop putting lies on us, or exxagerating things until Turkey is gone.
And Tiberius, shouldn't you be rotting for centuries in a Roman cemetary? ( :) )

Pontus Greeks, what about them ?
In WW1, Pontus Greeks created gangs to sabotage Turkish supply lines and killed Turkish families. THen we created our OWN gangs to hunt them down.
However, families and friends were diffrent of course. Our teacher told us that some turks were hiding greeks in their basement from local cops and some greeks were hiding turks from local greek gangs

And massacre of Greeks inside turkey I think I talkd about that what are you referring to ?

Using your logic that you have to have witnessed something to be able to form an opinion on it, you must be coming up for 100! Congratulations on being VT's oldest member by about 70years!

[Azunite]

Matty either you don't understand or you DONT want to understand, watch your tongue.
I didn't say I witnessed it, from where exactly do you read my text? I am telling what I heard from our history teacher, our documents ( which Europeans don't show because "it is classified", why dont u say you just dont have evidence there is no geno.. ? )our documentaires and from Greek family friends.

[Tiberius]

Matty either you don't understand or you DONT want to understand, watch your tongue.
I didn't say I witnessed it, from where exactly do you read my text? I am telling what I heard from our history teacher, our documents ( which Europeans don't show because "it is classified", why dont u say you just dont have evidence there is no geno.. ? )our documentaires and from Greek family friends.

Hahaha.

I trust your documents almost as much as I would trust a snake. The Turkish government covered this up almost as well as the Chinese "The Great Leap Forward" where over 20 million people were killed by either famine or executions. The people in China deny that it happened, so why should I expect anything different from the Turks, who have a history of hating the Greeks?

[Azunite]

Because Turks aren't Chinese.

Turks have a short history of hating greeks because they hated us..
If byzantiens would conquer Turkss, they would burn mosques down.
But at conquest of Balkans and Greece, we didn't harmed them, that's why some greeks and some Turks have a strong relationship.
Then, French Revolution happened, spreding the "Every nation should have his own country" and when Europe gave supplies, they revolted and Greece was found. That's why they hate us. And when they hate us, we hate them.
We have officil Ottoman records, and when these plots weren't up yet, when there wasn't war, why would Ottomans temper with records ?
We are not afraid to show our records, they killed us we killed them. However, Greeks are on a tight rope when we ask "Your evidence ?"
They were so busy throwing lies on us now they can't manage a country and tomorrow Greece will collapse, they owe to everyone and yet you people give more money to them, thats why EU is going down.
So, from Kur'an to this conversatoin, why are we going on exactly Tiber ?

[The Dark Lord]

Matty either you don't understand or you DONT want to understand, watch your tongue.
I didn't say I witnessed it, from where exactly do you read my text? I am telling what I heard from our history teacher, our documents ( which Europeans don't show because "it is classified", why dont u say you just dont have evidence there is no geno.. ? )our documentaires and from Greek family friends.

Don't threaten me. Turkey as a nation has a disgusting human rights record. Earlier in this thread you ask me what "appalling" meant because you didn't understand it. I presume we've got the same problem with "classified", as if there were "classified" documents regarding "geno..", you certainly wouldn't be aware of them. You expect me to believe your evidence of a teacher and a few friends, when you rejected my evidence from a respected source?

[Azunite]

I expet you to believe my evidenec from a GREEK !

[Sage]

I expet you to believe my evidenec from a GREEK !

Nobody cares. That's just a bias.

[The Dark Lord]

I expet you to believe my evidenec from a GREEK !

DISCLAIMER: In future posts, would you mind posting in English?

So if an English person said Hitler was good, you'd believe that?

[Azunite]

No but you are giving false example
( and btw couldn't you understand that was "evidence"? I am writing fast here stop insultign my every post )
If a German said Hitler was good, I could say "Oh really, " and discuss with it.
But you say Greeks are killed, and I ask Greek " You were killed?" and the Greek one says no

[Tiberius]

He's alive. He wasn't alive from 1914-1928, now was he, smarts?

And another question, did the Armenian Genocide never happen too? Was it just a lie as well?

[Sage]

If a German said Hitler was good, I could say "Oh really, " and discuss with it.


Uh, no, that's stupid. Race doesn't give validity to any argument.

[Tiberius]

Let's continue our argument about the lies created by the Turkish government here, rather than going off topic in another...

[The Dark Lord]

Let's continue our argument about the lies created by the Turkish government here, rather than going off topic in another...

I think your being very unfair here. Those sources (the history teacher and a family friend) seemed pretty reliable and undeniable to me

[Azunite]

Simply my God, Tiber.
You are working SOOOO hard, you carried those posts riiightt uuupp heereee and you still want to discuss?
Well, you must be very tired trying to search every piece of internet shit to find some genocide information, that I congratulate you.
Other than that, nothing, you can keep hanging around here while I enjoy VT, while you will be stuck in political threads wasting yourself and your tiny Roman brain.
I hope you won't be "cold" like my Scot friend here

[Tiberius]

http://www.aina.org/releases/20100423163631.htm

Really? You are denying fact and resorting to personal attacks. I think you've lost.

[Azunite]

Yeah, we killed them, I am not denying that, so ?
(Notice how Turks and Kurds worked together back then, unlike now.... :( )
It is not a genocide, genocide is being a rascist and massacring an entire faith or an entire nation ( like Nazi Germany X Jews ).
What we did was for the good of the Empire. Pontus Greeks were causing riots and unrest at Northern Turkey, cutting Turkish military supply lines. We killed them because there wasn't an option , they weren't listening to " Oh just STFU"
Assyrian Genocide? Really? Only now I hear that...
And the infamous Armenian genocide.
You know, I have a lot to write about that so I will post a new post about that
END

Armenian Genocide ,
Turkish Gangs are killing Armenian militia.
Armenian Militia killing Turkish Gangs...
We couldn't prevent turkish milita from the killing so what we did?
We loaded Armenians on trains and sended them to south where they wouldn't get hurt by Turks ( but when we unloaded them they were killed by Kurds, that's the genocide I believe, eh ? ).
During the trip, there were doctors and guards over the train.
Ones who resisted were unloaded from trains in mid-way, then they said " They made us walk the whole waay..."
As I said, we have Ottoman records that Armenians were moved to empty southern villages where every Armenian was given a house ( well or two Armenian families, overccrowd )
And, the most *banging* fact : You say 1.5 million Armenians were killed.
Hmm how strange, because according to Ottoman population counts only several years before, there are no more than 750.000 Armenians in the boundaries of Ottoman empire.
However, only the records of İstanbul Pontus Church say there are 1.5 million Armenians, ( notice the way diffrence, the Church is at İstanbul, Armenians are at the eastern edge )
There weren't even 1.5 TOTAL POPULATION living in Eastern Turkey, how come there are 1.5 million Armenians, that's all.

[Whisper]

Yeah, we killed them, I am not denying that, so ?
(Notice how Turks and Kurds worked together back then, unlike now.... :( )
It is not a genocide, genocide is being a rascist and massacring an entire faith or an entire nation ( like Nazi Germany X Jews ).
What we did was for the good of the Empire. Pontus Greeks were causing riots and unrest at Northern Turkey, cutting Turkish military supply lines. We killed them because there wasn't an option , they weren't listening to " Oh just STFU"
Assyrian Genocide? Really? Only now I hear that...
And the infamous Armenian genocide.
You know, I have a lot to write about that so I will post a new post about that
END

Armenian Genocide ,
Turkish Gangs are killing Armenian militia.
Armenian Militia killing Turkish Gangs...
We couldn't prevent turkish milita from the killing so what we did?
We loaded Armenians on trains and sended them to south where they wouldn't get hurt by Turks ( but when we unloaded them they were killed by Kurds, that's the genocide I believe, eh ? ).
During the trip, there were doctors and guards over the train.
Ones who resisted were unloaded from trains in mid-way, then they said " They made us walk the whole waay..."
As I said, we have Ottoman records that Armenians were moved to empty southern villages where every Armenian was given a house ( well or two Armenian families, overccrowd )
And, the most *banging* fact : You say 1.5 million Armenians were killed.
Hmm how strange, because according to Ottoman population counts only several years before, there are no more than 750.000 Armenians in the boundaries of Ottoman empire.
However, only the records of İstanbul Pontus Church say there are 1.5 million Armenians, ( notice the way diffrence, the Church is at İstanbul, Armenians are at the eastern edge )
There weren't even 1.5 TOTAL POPULATION living in Eastern Turkey, how come there are 1.5 million Armenians, that's all.

WOW
I don't even know what to say to that other then I'm glad I live nowhere near your shitty excuse for a country

[Azunite]

Then why you people mess with us ?

[darkwoon]

Armenian Genocide ,
Turkish Gangs are killing Armenian militia.
Armenian Militia killing Turkish Gangs...
Read: the Ottoman Empire had to face Armenian independentists and replied by the use of military force. The problem is that it didn't limit its action against the rebels, but exerted violence against the population as a whole.

We couldn't prevent turkish milita from the killing so what we did?
Err, no. For the most part, the mass-killing was performed by the regular Ottoman army units, or units under control of the local administrations.

Private militia actions of course happened, and were probably encouraged by the central government, but were by far marginal when compared to the regular unit actions.

Pre-WWI acts of violence in Armenia happened in 1894, 96, and 1909 - in all three cases, contomporary accounts clearly describe them as either directly ordered by the sultan, or having the regular troops actively joining the slaughter.

We loaded Armenians on trains and sended them to south where they wouldn't get hurt by Turks ( but when we unloaded them they were killed by Kurds, that's the genocide I believe, eh ? ).
Ok, it seems obvious that your knowledge of even the Turkish version of that part of the Ottoman Empire's history is light and sketchy at best.

Shortly summarized, the Turkish view is that there was a plot led by armenians to take their independence and overthrow the Ottoman government, taking advantage of the trouble caused by the World War. The Armenian population was accused to collaborate with the Russian enemy, hence the need to move them away from the front line.

In fact, Armenians were for a long time an issue in the Ottoman politic of ethnical unification of their territory, and the World War gave them a very good excuse to eliminate people now presented as "enemies of the state". When the Ottoman armies operating at the Russian border were defeated due to lack of preparation and inferior equipment, it was quite easy for them to point the inhabitants as having allied with the Russians and caused the defeat.

Not all the population was moved. In fact, the first part of the Armenian genocide was actually to eliminate the most influent Armenian representatives, mostly intellectuals living in Constantinople. Populations were then eliminated in several provinces, and sent into deportation in others. And a lot of those sent in deportation ended up in camps where they were left to die, or in the desertic areas of Mesopotamia.

Note that all those were not "post-mortem" accounts from Armenian (or associated) sources: they are clearly described by contemporary sources of all origins, and are heavily cross-verified. Unless I'm mistaken, they are also confirmed by declassified Ottoman archives of that time. It is also interesting to note that the first position of the Turkish government on the issue was that there was indeed a genocide, but that it was not a planned one, just a consequence of war facts.

And, the most *banging* fact : You say 1.5 million Armenians were killed.
Hmm how strange, because according to Ottoman population counts only several years before, there are no more than 750.000 Armenians in the boundaries of Ottoman empire.
However, only the records of İstanbul Pontus Church say there are 1.5 million Armenians, ( notice the way diffrence, the Church is at İstanbul, Armenians are at the eastern edge )
There weren't even 1.5 TOTAL POPULATION living in Eastern Turkey, how come there are 1.5 million Armenians, that's all.
Except that the counts performed by the Ottomans themselves before 1878 clearly confirm the Istanbul Church's own count: 2 million Armenians in Asian Turkey (1844), 2.4 million for the whole Empire in 1867. It is only when Armenians presented autonomy requests in 1878 that Ottoman counting of their population was suddenly reduced by more than a million. Again, the discrepancies in the Ottoman counting are clearly documented by both independent sources and by the Ottoman archives.

Really, where is the problem in recognizing there was a genocide? Just because the Turks back then did something terribly wrong does not mean you are responsible of it. To name a few known examples, Germans, Russians, or Spanish people all recognized and accepted cruel behavior from their ancestors as part of their own history. Why would the Turks reject their own heritage in such a blind way?

[Azunite]

Thank you for this explaining text.
I have no problem with it, of course it is not my problem.
But I am ttrying to say that we didn't killed them because we were some sort of rascist people. We had to kill them because they were causing problems, not minor problems, But problems that may caused Empire to collapse before the War.
And I don't know if you recognized this or not ,
Well I don't know anything about Spaniards or Russians, but when Jews sued Germans for thta Genocide, Germany paid loads of money to Israel.
And when they saw this, Armenians decided to call the previous war killings as a "genocide".
Armenia only has three borders, one with Georgia, one with Azerbaijan and one with us.
Azerians and Armenians are mortal enemies, their borders are closed.
Georgians have no reason to love Azerbaijan, borders are closed.
We are mortal enemies so our borders are closed also.
Armenian economy is only based on farming and animals, they don't have all those technological factories and if we don't open borders with them ( or anyone does ) it means their economy will fail.
Nobody trades with them so they want money from us, the money will take from us at Human Rights Court

[Azunite]

I am done talking this. I don't care if you guys continue.

[darkwoon]

But I am ttrying to say that we didn't killed them because we were some sort of rascist people. We had to kill them because they were causing problems, not minor problems, But problems that may caused Empire to collapse before the War.
Let's be clear: the Ottoman Empire was collapsing for various economical and cultural reasons since the beginning of the XIXth century. Over-attachment to an obsolete administrative structure, lack of flexibility towards the nationalities contained in the empire, or increasing dependency on other industrial nations were the real cause. Just as with the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, integration of other nationalities was never achieved, ultimately leading to the collapse. Actually, the whole XIXth century was, for the Ottoman Empire, a long list of secessions and territorial loss against independentist movements.

Now, on another note, is the stability of a nation worth killing millions of people? Don't you think peaceful splitting is better than slaughter of civilians? Aren't you even disturbed by the whole idea? I, for sure, am.

And I don't know if you recognized this or not ,
Well I don't know anything about Spaniards or Russians, but when Jews sued Germans for thta Genocide, Germany paid loads of money to Israel.
And when they saw this, Armenians decided to call the previous war killings as a "genocide".
The elimination of the Armenian population was recognized long before the end of WWII both by Armenians and the international community. Contemporaries of Sultan Abdulhamid II called him "the Red Sultan" (wikipedia, in its French version, contains a copy of a caricature from the early XXth century representing the sultan as a "first-class butcher"). Although I don't know the details, it is clear that the question was discussed at the end of the war by the Allies, as the 1919 and 1920 treaties regarding the Ottoman Empire clearly mentioned the Armenian Question. The Unionist Trial of 1919, organized in Constantinople, also dealt with that issue.

They were not, for the most part, war-killings - they were the systematic, large-scale elimination of a population as a whole. Killing soldiers or members of the resistance movements could be labelled as "war-killing" - but what about children? What about the elits of Constantinople who were clearly trying to find a diplomatic solution with the Sultan?

Armenia only has three borders, one with Georgia, one with Azerbaijan and one with us.
Azerians and Armenians are mortal enemies, their borders are closed.
Georgians have no reason to love Azerbaijan, borders are closed.
We are mortal enemies so our borders are closed also.
And?

Armenian economy is only based on farming and animals, they don't have all those technological factories and if we don't open borders with them ( or anyone does ) it means their economy will fail.
Except that, if you haven't noticed, their economy *is* not working anyway now, and for a pretty good reason: they cannot develop an industry because the country they depend on do not want to invest in it, plain and simple.

Regardless, this is not an economical question: it is about the right of a population being recognized the right to exist.

Nobody trades with them so they want money from us, the money will take from us at Human Rights Court
If you think recognizing culpability in a genocide automatically leads to economical compensations, you are quite naive on how modern world works.
Besides that, don't you think that's a great deal of cynism to deny the existence of genocide to protect from a purely hypothetical financial compensation?

The problem is infortunately way more simple - the founders of modern Turkey came, for a major part, from the faction that led the genocide. Hence, recognizing the genocide would result in saying: "our founding fathers were not as great as heroes as we were told". Most of the Turkish population is simply not ready to see its cultural beliefs questioned. I hope this someday change, as constant rebuttal can only lead to radicalisation, and build fertile ground to islamism - we're already seeing that nowadays.

I am done talking this. I don't care if you guys continue.
That's pretty unfortunate. Of course, questioning your own beliefs requires strength of mind and maturity, and not everybody can achieve enough of them to face facts. I just hope that someday, in the future, you'll be open to opinions that do not necessarily agree with yours.

[Azunite]

If I wasn't open to your opinions, I wouldn't even start talking about the genocide.
I listen to you, you don't listen to me, what's the point of discussing anymore ?

[Sith Lord 13]

If I wasn't open to your opinions, I wouldn't even start talking about the genocide.
I listen to you, you don't listen to me, what's the point of discussing anymore ?

Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they didn't listen to you.