Self defense in school

[Amnesiac]

In many school across the nation, including here in Texas, both parties in a bullying situation are punished. Even if one student was simply practicing self defense, which should be expected of someone when facing potential injury, they are punished for simply being involved in a bullying incident.

I believe students should have a right to self defense against bullies when there is nobody around to aid them in the situation.

It is unfair for schools to punish students who were simply, naturally trying to protect themselves.

What do you guys think?

[ShyGuyInChicago]

In many school across the nation, including here in Texas, both parties in a bullying situation are punished. Even if one student was simply practicing self defense, which should be expected of someone when facing potential injury, they are punished for simply being involved in a bullying incident.

I believe students should have a right to self defense against bullies when there is nobody around to aid them in the situation.

It is unfair for schools to punish students who were simply, naturally trying to protect themselves.

What do you guys think?

I agree, but it can be hard to determine who started the fight since the people involved can lie. Plus, often people start fighting and then people notice so there are often no witnesses who saw who started the fight.

[Amnesiac]

I agree, but it can be hard to determine who started the fight since the people involved can lie. Plus, often people start fighting and then people notice so there are often no witnesses who saw who started the fight.

Still, it's a corrupted system where you're punished for protecting yourself. Schools need to do more than just rely on testimonies from the parties involved and actually investigate the situation. I don't care how much time it wastes, it's the only way to be completely fair and create a safer environment where students know they can protect themselves.

[ShyGuyInChicago]

Still, it's a corrupted system where you're punished for protecting yourself. Schools need to do more than just rely on testimonies from the parties involved and actually investigate the situation. I don't care how much time it wastes, it's the only way to be completely fair and create a safer environment where students know they can protect themselves.

You are right. You know I am not sure, but I would guess that some schools would automatically suspend both until it is determined who started the fight so that the person who defended themselves has the suspension reversed and removed from their records. If they don't then they should although investigating before suspending would be better. Also my high school would suspend everyone who fights regardless of who started it, and they would also have them arrested.

[Amnesiac]

You are right. You know I am not sure, but I would guess that some schools would automatically suspend both until it is determined who started the fight so that the person who defended themselves has the suspension reversed and removed from their records. If they don't then they should although investigating before suspending would be better. Also my high school would suspend everyone who fights regardless of who started it, and they would also have them arrested.

I know, my middle school and probably high school do that as well. They fail to take into consideration self defense and just do mass suspensions, as if it doesn't matter. These are things that can destroy grades and corrupt college applications, self-defense in schools needs to be recognized.

[DarkHorses]

I agree with you. I don't think schools do enough for people who are bullied, either. I think that they don't see it going on, so they automatically kind of dismiss it. I remember talking to one of my principals before and telling them I was bullied, and she said something like "Well I don't see it going on." What kid is stupid enough to bully someone in front of the principal? :P

Bullying isn't given enough attention. Kids should be taught the right way to defend themselves in school when it comes to bullies, and if they resort to punching or hurting others to defend themselves then I think the school is to blame for not teaching them what they feel is the correct way to handle the situation. If they feel this kind of self defense is wrong, they should be working with students and telling them what approach is right to stand up for yourself when it comes to being bullied.

[ShyGuyInChicago]

This thread reminds me of a book called Juanita Fights the School Board. It is about a Mexican girl who gets into a fight with a white girl. The white girl started the fight and Juanita defended herself and got suspended while the white girl (whose nae I do not know as I have never actually read the book) did not get in trouble. Juanita sues the school district.

[Amnesiac]

I agree with you. I don't think schools do enough for people who are bullied, either. I think that they don't see it going on, so they automatically kind of dismiss it. I remember talking to one of my principals before and telling them I was bullied, and she said something like "Well I don't see it going on." What kid is stupid enough to bully someone in front of the principal? :P

Bullying isn't given enough attention. Kids should be taught the right way to defend themselves in school when it comes to bullies, and if they resort to punching or hurting others to defend themselves then I think the school is to blame for not teaching them what they feel is the correct way to handle the situation. If they feel this kind of self defense is wrong, they should be working with students and telling them what approach is right to stand up for yourself when it comes to being bullied.

I agree, schools are failing to pay attention to bullying. It's an issue, and no pathetic little "THIS SCHOOL IS A BULLY FREE ZONE!" pledges are going to stop students from bullying. It's an issue, and self defense is entirely appropriate and should be encouraged when a student has nobody around to help him or her.

Schools are definitely to blame for students having to resort to self defense, since they fail to prevent the situation in the first place.

[ShyGuyInChicago]

I know, my middle school and probably high school do that as well. They fail to take into consideration self defense and just do mass suspensions, as if it doesn't matter. These are things that can destroy grades and corrupt college applications, self-defense in schools needs to be recognized.

Also in my high school what they did was that if you are suspended you can make up work but you only get 50% credit for it.

[Amnesiac]

Also in my high school what they did was that if you are suspended you can make up work but you only get 50% credit for it.

There's barely a difference, it's still a failing grade.

Again, this is the kind of thing that destroys people's futures in education. It needs to be fixed.

[ShyGuyInChicago]

There's barely a difference, it's still a failing grade.

Again, this is the kind of thing that destroys people's futures in education. It needs to be fixed.

You know I think schools need to be required to teach about bullying and teach kids how to respect each other. Some might say that is the parents' job, but I feel that simply some parents don't care or unable to teach respect. Plus even if they do teach respect their kids might just do bad things if they believe they won't get caught. They say that it takes a village to raise a child and I truly believe that. It is not enough for the parents to do their job.

[Amnesiac]

You know I think schools need to be required to teach about bullying and teach kids how to respect each other. Some might say that is the parents' job, but I feel that simply some parents don't care or unable to teach respect. Plus even if they do teach respect their kids might just do bad things if they believe they won't get caught. They say that it takes a village to raise a child and I truly believe that. It is not enough for the parents to do their job.

Schools do teach about bullying and respect, but it's not effective enough. Saying "sign this pledge saying you won't bully", it's not like students will actually give a fuck. We need to change the entire bullying punishment system. Set up investigation panels. Interviews. Investigations. Promote self defense and guarantee that students will get off clean if they were simply trying to protect themselves.

[ShyGuyInChicago]

Schools do teach about bullying and respect, but it's not effective enough. Saying "sign this pledge saying you won't bully", it's not like students will actually give a fuck. We need to change the entire bullying punishment system. Set up investigation panels. Interviews. Investigations. Promote self defense and guarantee that students will get off clean if they were simply trying to protect themselves.

I am not talking about pledges. I am talking about like learning about it in the classroom. Through discussion and activities and discussing the potential consequences of bullying such as suicide and teaching students how to have non-violent conflict resolution along with peer mediation and group therapy. I also feel that schools should teach about violence in romantic relationships. That is what needs to be done in addition to making sure that students are only punished when they do something wrong.

[Amnesiac]

I am not talking about pledges. I am talking about like learning about it in the classroom. Through discussion and activities and discussing the potential consequences of bullying such as suicide and teaching students how to have non-violent conflict resolution along with peer mediation and group therapy. I also feel that schools should teach about violence in romantic relationships. That is what needs to be done in addition to making sure that students are only punished when they do something wrong.

I'm sure some schools do hold sessions like that, and I'm pretty sure I'll have one at my high school this year. But it's still not enough, we need the entire system reformed, molded more after a real-life judicial system which is balanced and fair.

[ShyGuyInChicago]

I'm sure some schools do hold sessions like that, and I'm pretty sure I'll have one at my high school this year. But it's still not enough, we need the entire system reformed, molded more after a real-life judicial system which is balanced and fair.

That could help with other things as well such as accusation of cheating and vandalism.

[Amnesiac]

That could help with other things as well such as accusation of cheating and vandalism.

Yes, a reformed punishment/justice system in schools would save the permanent records of thousands of innocent students.

[Nexus]

School administrators happen to be overzealous when it comes to combating violence, I agree. Their solution is to suspend first and ask questions later, which is a completely thoughtless way of going about things.

What I disagree with is that it tarnishes criminal records. While the education system's less than-stellar-administration system is apparent to many, there is more hope in the judicial system. A lot of states offer automatic expunging of records once the individual reaches the age of 18. Juvenile records are a hell of a lot easier to erase as the law deems kids the easiest to rehabilitate, as one would naturally expect.

Childhood blemishes are to be expected. If the public schools aren't going to grant any amnesty, then the law will.

[Scarface]

We had a simple system when i was in high school. It was a bullying hotline for the school. Called Silence Hurts (http://www.broward.k12.fl.us/communications/silence.htm) all completely anonymous. There's was little to no bullying, but there were still fights :P

[Jess]

in my school most people if they are bullied tell a teacher immediately....but I never known anyone to use self defense. I wouldn't but people shouldn't get in trouble for defending themselves.

[Amnesiac]

School administrators happen to be overzealous when it comes to combating violence, I agree. Their solution is to suspend first and ask questions later, which is a completely thoughtless way of going about things.

What I disagree with is that it tarnishes criminal records. While the education system's less than-stellar-administration system is apparent to many, there is more hope in the judicial system. A lot of states offer automatic expunging of records once the individual reaches the age of 18. Juvenile records are a hell of a lot easier to erase as the law deems kids the easiest to rehabilitate, as one would naturally expect.

Childhood blemishes are to be expected. If the public schools aren't going to grant any amnesty, then the law will.

I wan't talking about criminal records, I was talking about school records that are passed on to colleges. If a student was punished for using self defense in, let's say high school, universities wouldn't take kindly to that blemish on the records they received from the high school.

[Perseus]

Schools do teach about bullying and respect, but it's not effective enough. Saying "sign this pledge saying you won't bully", it's not like students will actually give a fuck. We need to change the entire bullying punishment system. Set up investigation panels. Interviews. Investigations. Promote self defense and guarantee that students will get off clean if they were simply trying to protect themselves.

I think you should write a letter or talk to your principal. Complaining about it on a forum won't get anything solved. Saying, "hurr durr, I agree with you." won't change anything at all.

[BOBBY HILL]

when your cornered in a room being punched and assaulted by the bully, find the time to look him/her in the eye and say "LEAVE ME ALONE"


lol yeah right

[Nexus]

I wan't talking about criminal records, I was talking about school records that are passed on to colleges. If a student was punished for using self defense in, let's say high school, universities wouldn't take kindly to that blemish on the records they received from the high school.

I've got to disagree. It will come up at some point. But most universities will merely question you about it, and if it was honestly a case of self defense, then I doubt they're going to hold that against a prospective student.

There's even ways of dealing with it before university applications, such as explaining the situation to a counselor or a school principal. At least that's how it works here.

I think you should write a letter or talk to your principal. Complaining about it on a forum won't get anything solved. Saying, "hurr durr, I agree with you." won't change anything at all.
Maybe he will. I don't understand what's wrong with getting the forum's opinion.

[Amnesiac]

I think you should write a letter or talk to your principal. Complaining about it on a forum won't get anything solved. Saying, "hurr durr, I agree with you." won't change anything at all.

I've only been going to Stratford (my high school) for four days, I'm not entirely sure of their system. As for my old middle school, since I don't attend there nor do any other members of my family, I don't think I would have much influence. I could try, I've written letters before.

I just thought it was a good topic for ROTW :P

[Perseus]

I've only been going to Stratford (my high school) for four days, I'm not entirely sure of their system. As for my old middle school, since I don't attend there nor do any other members of my family, I don't think I would have much influence. I could try, I've written letters before.

I just thought it was a good topic for ROTW :P

It's a one sided debate. You should do something. Go talk your principal or counselor or whatever on Monday. Reach out. Like I said, talking about it won't do anything.

[Amnesiac]

It's a one sided debate. You should do something. Go talk your principal or counselor or whatever on Monday. Reach out. Like I said, talking about it won't do anything.

That is true. I'd assume both schools only follow district guidelines, so it would be best to write to the superintendent or someone high ranking like him.

[Sith Lord 13]

It's a one sided debate.

Fine, I'll play devil's advocate. This policy is appropriate as is. Escalation is never one sided, and violence is unacceptable. If you're challenged to a fight, walk away, and report it. If they assault you, run away and report it. Fighting violence with violence makes you as culpable as they are.

[Perseus]

Fine, I'll play devil's advocate. This policy is appropriate as is. Escalation is never one sided, and violence is unacceptable. If you're challenged to a fight, walk away, and report it. If they assault you, run away and report it. Fighting violence with violence makes you as culpable as they are.

What if you are cornered and are just being, y'know, attacked by the other person. There is no way of escape since you are cornered, and just sitting there getting attacked is the right thing?

[Sith Lord 13]

What if you are cornered and are just being, y'know, attacked by the other person. There is no way of escape since you are cornered, and just sitting there getting attacked is the right thing?

You could shove your way past without throwing a punch.

[Perseus]

You could shove your way past without throwing a punch.

Shoving is still violence.

[Sith Lord 13]

Shoving is still violence.

I mean shoving in the squeeze pass sense, as opposed to, say shoving your opponent to the ground. If that is still considered violence, perhaps the change that needs to be made is how to define violence.

[Amnesiac]

Fine, I'll play devil's advocate. This policy is appropriate as is. Escalation is never one sided, and violence is unacceptable. If you're challenged to a fight, walk away, and report it. If they assault you, run away and report it. Fighting violence with violence makes you as culpable as they are.

There are plenty of situations where there could be no escape. They could lock you in a room. They could surround you. They could even pick you up and pin you against the wall.

This is why self-defense exists, not to defeat violence with violence but as a last-resort tactic when you're the weaker one out and injury is almost guaranteed. The definition of "violence" is:

Action intended to cause destruction, pain, or suffering.

I wouldn't say self-defense necessarily fits the definition of violence. It is not done purely to inflict pain or suffering, but rather to create enough distraction to escape a dangerous situation.

[Nexus]

Fine, I'll play devil's advocate. This policy is appropriate as is. Escalation is never one sided, and violence is unacceptable. If you're challenged to a fight, walk away, and report it. If they assault you, run away and report it. Fighting violence with violence makes you as culpable as they are.

Very poor idea in that kind of situation.

Instilling violence is one thing, defending yourself by use of force is another.

If schools really wanted to combat violence, they'd start using their heads and reprimanding those starting the fights.

[Husker]

I am not talking about pledges. I am talking about like learning about it in the classroom. Through discussion and activities and discussing the potential consequences of bullying such as suicide and teaching students how to have non-violent conflict resolution along with peer mediation and group therapy. I also feel that schools should teach about violence in romantic relationships. That is what needs to be done in addition to making sure that students are only punished when they do something wrong.


My schools have had that.......it's just not helping...nothing seems to work at all. Kids these days man...Kids.........

[Perseus]

I mean shoving in the squeeze pass sense, as opposed to, say shoving your opponent to the ground. If that is still considered violence, perhaps the change that needs to be made is how to define violence.

It can still provoke the person.

[ShyGuyInChicago]

What if schools allow self defense and the person who defends themselves does more than is necessary to protect themselves?

[Amnesiac]

What if schools allow self defense and the person who defends themselves does more than is necessary to protect themselves?

Then mimic the judicial system and investigate it. School discipline systems, for bigger offenses such as bullying, should be modeled after the real-world judicial system, with actual investigations instead of off-the-cuff 5-minute decisions.

[danielf123]

if anything, it shows life as it is
unfair

i do support the self-defense thing btw

im just saying, fuck, ive been in that situation, hell, i got suspended from school for getting in a fight with someone, they started the fight as well. I had many times reported to the principal and my teachers that he was bothering me and calling me out alot and i simply didnt want to resort to a fight breaking out
and supirse suprise
they didnt do jack shit about it, all they did is talk to him and thats it
then some shit goes down, we get in a fight, and im the one who got suspended, many other people saw this shit go down and pinned him as the one who started it and im the one who got in trouble regardless cuz he was bleeding and i wasnt

Is it my falt i acted in self defense n beat the shit out of him? FUCK NO!!! I did the right thing and told my teachers and vice principle and nothing got done about it. The guy i got in a fight with is such an idiotic dumbass arrogent douche bag that when me n him got into it in the gym (thats where the fight happened) the teachers saw us fighting and didnt get involved (they saw i was beating his ass) because he is very disrespectful to the teachers as well. The teachers that saw us said they didnt see anything when questioned by the vice principal. I know they saw cuz they turned and looked at us fighting and just stared and then turned away. But other kids they asked said he had started it and i was defending mysel and etc... and i still got suspended and almost arrested simply because i drew blood and he only hit me once (well he pushed me down and when i got up he swung at me but missed, but he kept swinging)

face it, just like in life, the system is flawed, biased, and fucked up basicly lol
All these government institutions of learning we call public school is a fucking failure and laughing stock who only care about grades and there general image, they dont care how it affects people's personal lives, School, belive it or not, is a buissness and it gets run like one, that in there lies the real problem. They dont care about your education, they just care that you can memorize words from a book and mindlessly copy them
Public schools arent for learning, there to train you to adjust to a 9-5 schedule and getting used to doing nothing but work the entire time for little in return. They get rid of those "cogs" that have rusted and they no longer see fit, when in reality, the "cog" wasnt rusted, it was simply dirty, and with some help, it coulda been fine. The analogy, for those who didnt get it, is, schools should help failing students instead of kicking them out like they do now

[INFERNO]

What if schools allow self defense and the person who defends themselves does more than is necessary to protect themselves?

That's what may happen in law and the result is often assault. The issue with it being in schools though is they want to avoid getting complaints to the school board and being put in the media. If they allow self-defense, then both kids' parents will demand the other kid gets punished for hitting. The simple way then is punish both to make both sides happy then they'll investigate it a little. I think though they may not want to play detective by doing lots of investigating so by laziness and to deter other students, they punish both to show violence isn't acceptable at all. But even if it does get investigated by asking other students and the ones fighting, if both were in a fight, then they rule it as such.

I think self-defense should be allowed because it's stupid to say that the victim should run as it's not a feasible option in all cases. If someone is beating you up in the corner, then you should at least block their hit then run. I had to use self-defense in high-school a few times because my choice was stand there as a punching bag for the bullies or I do something and get free to at least get within earshot of a teacher. The idea often is go to the teacher before the issue turns into a conflict but sometimes the teachers don't do anything or try to talk your way out of it, which does not always work.

[danielf123]

That's what may happen in law and the result is often assault. The issue with it being in schools though is they want to avoid getting complaints to the school board and being put in the media. If they allow self-defense, then both kids' parents will demand the other kid gets punished for hitting. The simple way then is punish both to make both sides happy then they'll investigate it a little. I think though they may not want to play detective by doing lots of investigating so by laziness and to deter other students, they punish both to show violence isn't acceptable at all. But even if it does get investigated by asking other students and the ones fighting, if both were in a fight, then they rule it as such.

I think self-defense should be allowed because it's stupid to say that the victim should run as it's not a feasible option in all cases. If someone is beating you up in the corner, then you should at least block their hit then run. I had to use self-defense in high-school a few times because my choice was stand there as a punching bag for the bullies or I do something and get free to at least get within earshot of a teacher. The idea often is go to the teacher before the issue turns into a conflict but sometimes the teachers don't do anything or try to talk your way out of it, which does not always work.


and then they lie to themsleves and wonder why it happened in the first place

dont you just love our society? :rolleyes: