Mexico border issues (america)

[cmpcmp]

If you don't live in america you most likely won't know the specifics as americans wouldn't know the specifics of other countries individual issues. This isn't to say that there aren't underlying princibles that can be argued by anyone.

If you know..... (facts)
-The mexican border isn't "secure" in the sense that illegals can come acrross it and not get caught on a fairly regular basis.
-In America (federal law) it is illegal to cross into america with out americas consent. So 'illegal aliens' are 'illegal' no matter how you spinn it (this isn't to say that the specific law, or other circumstances associated aren't wrong in the first place)
-There is a no enforcement policy in many US cities relating to illegal aliens. Such as texan cities and im pretty sure my own (seattle).
-there are a few (2, 1,?) cities that do jail illegals and then send them home, some cities send them home, where they can come right back, to be sent home agian, and possibly again and again.

IMO
-open borders is a terrible policy
-Not alowing workers that are williing to work and imigrate, work and be a part of america simply because they weren't born here is also a terrible policy
-Open borders are dangerous, because of gang migration (to and from) and terrorism, drug smugling, weapon smugling and so on.

-We should try to establish a program that allows mexicans (and possibly others) to work here, become a citizen, and be a productive member of society. While at the same time, not let ppl such as Criminals, terrorists, and what not have a free pass in either.
-Also we should seal the border to a reasonable level that doesn't allow ppl to get across it.

History
-America was founded by imigrants
-America has thrived on imigration throughout the years
-yes it is true that many imigrants have been discriminated against (african, irish, asian, muslim,.....)
-(this may seem stupid) English is the historical main language of america
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Ok debate away, BUT

DONT....
-swear, flame, or w/e i know ppl know what is generaly regarded as acceptable or not. This has been a problem in previous posts, while some one may saysome thing offensive that doesn't mean that you should say some thing offensinve back. Im calling you out Phantom don't say hatefull things, and no one say hate full things back.
-Please don't get terribly off topic, and if it starts to, either come back, or start a new thread (for gods sake will some one make a welfare and or homelss thread?)

keep ur comments logical, don't say stuff that is irelivent, and if u provide "facts", and don't have any support for thoes facts. don't expect them to be valued, unless its something that every one accepts as true (but then there wouldn't be a problem then would there be?).

example of what you shouldn't do is person 1, you should be like person 2
(person 1) All mexicans are lazy and 98% of them are on welfare.
(person 2) where did u get this info?
(person 1) uhhhh....
(person 2) well i don't accept that information as true, it has no basis
(person 1) GOD UR SUCH A F*^()__ H*&% &*(^ B&(*^ AND YOUR THROUGHT SHOULD BE SLASHED. UN IGNORANT ^#%$
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be nice.:D

[Phantom]

ooooow I am being called out scary. I only flame if provoked or idiot remarks are made. I agree with just about everything you said.

[cmpcmp]

or idiot remarks are made.
You deeming something an idiot remark doesn't make it ok to flame, just as getting flamed doesn't justifly being flamed. If you falme someone, someone will flame you back, its a very bad cycle, the best thing to do is to not flame at all, as it never accomplishes anyhting. A well made argument can, and does.

ooooow I am being called out scary.
I only "call out" because you are generaly (in my experience) involed in the majority of the falming (back and forth) on all recent threads.

[Phantom]

You deeming something an idiot remark doesn't make it ok to flame, just as getting flamed doesn't justifly being flamed. If you falme someone, someone will flame you back, its a very bad cycle, the best thing to do is to not flame at all, as it never accomplishes anyhting. A well made argument can, and does.By idiot remarks I mean false facts or lies. Such as. "we are slaughtering women and children in Iraq" or "Bush is a facist" things like I feel deserve a flame:)

[cmpcmp]

By idiot remarks I mean false facts or lies. Such as. "we are slaughtering women and children in Iraq" or "Bush is a facist" things like I feel deserve a flame:)

A flame is a falme is a flame is a flame, no matter what the situation please don't flame. If you would like to talk further about flaming, please create a new thread about flaming as this is getting rather off topic. I hope that mods will take care of flaming, no matter what the cause.

[Whisper]

cmp stop provoking phantom your taking your own thread off topic befor its barley begun

Personally I dont really care that your securing the US Mexico boarder

but your also barricading up the Canada US boarder which pisses me off because you always seem to treat us like crap even through were aperantly one of your closest allies
plus you dont have an immigration problem with us on the contrary its always americans fleeing to canada illigally we usually dont care theres 33million of us and we have the second largest country on the planet.....we got room
meh w/e

Canadas doing the same thing in the north with the Arctic sovereignty plan
the new naval base new ships and the sensor net which has america pissed right off
hahahaha

[Phantom]

cmp stop provoking phantom your taking your own thread off topic befor its barley begun

Personally I dont really care that your securing the US Mexico boarder

but your also barricading up the Canada US boarder which es me off because you always seem to treat us like crap even through were aperantly one of your closest allies
plus you dont have an immigration problem with us on the contrary its always americans fleeing to canada illigally we usually dont care theres 33million of us and we have the second largest country on the planet.....we got room
meh w/e

Canadas doing the same thing in the north with the Arctic sovereignty plan
the new naval base new ships and the sensor net which has america ed right off
hahahahaWe are puting up a border along the canadian border? I was not aware of that, from what I heard you can just walk right over. I think it might be about ists if they slip into your country they might be able to get over the boarder. Yeah you guys have alot of land but few few people:D I think our moeny should be concentrated on the mexico boarder mexican gov is so weak they lost control of their own boarder. run rampant so does diesease these aliens come and take welfare and overcrowd our citys. I mean is it REALY that hard to just come legaly.

[cmpcmp]

but your also barricading up the Canada US boarder which pisses me off because you always seem to treat us like crap even through were aperantly one of your closest allies
Canadas doing the same thing in the north with the Arctic sovereignty plan
the new naval base new ships and the sensor net which has america pissed right off
hahahaha
does this have anything to do with the american mexico border?

If you have an opinion on the actual thread "Mexico border issues (america)" then please talk about that.

The fact of the matter is, there are terrorists out there that wish harm upon the US, and they are willing to do things like hijack planes and crash them into buildings to do it. To properly prevent these things form happening it would be a good idea to make sure that it isn't easy for them to get to a south american country and work their way north, which currently can be done as countries like mexico (many countries are very poor) aren't very stable and there is very little trust in their police force(s).

[Whisper]

bahahahaha its so hostile

dude the boarder security plan espically the great wall of america is being pushed through rapidly because of the upcomming election which is one of the main reasons there also putting one up in sections of the canada us boarder meaning the two are connected they dont want to seem biased towards Mexico
you know 2 + 2 = 4....yea, keepin up so far?..good boy!!!

the boarder security plan isnt to stop terrorists its to stop illigal immigrants and drugs the alquida terrorists that have you terrified of your own shadow came into america using fake passports they didnt sneak in they walked through the front door
terrorists would not and have not entered america through Canada its been proven they didnt the only terrorists that were in Canada were here to attack us spicifically Toronto, they failed miserably

And if i am wrong (i'm not) and terrorists are the MAIN REASON then can you explain to me why Bush handed over security contracts to your largest sea ports like New York to a company based out of the Middle East instead of keeping it under government control with homeland security?

The huge metal wall the ariel drones the stationary and mobile towers the planted bugs etc..... thats going up along the US Mexico boarder and the Western Canada US boarder along with a small chunk in Ontario are there mainly to prevent illigal immigrants from mexico and drugs from my home province British Columbia

the two are the same plan will be going up roughly within the same time frame and therefor are related

Personally I liked the old plan where they were going to make it a real bitch to get into north america but once you were in it would be easy to go between Canada, America and Mexico but unfortunatly for the most part that fell through

[cmpcmp]

the boarder security plan isnt to stop terrorists its to stop illigal immigrants and drugs
yes this is part of it, i believe the main part, and as i said (below) terrorism is related
-Open borders are dangerous, because of gang migration (to and from) and terrorism, drug smugling, weapon smugling and so on.

terrorists would not and have not entered america through Canada
This is true, but they could come across the mexican border fairly easily currently.

And if i am wrong (i'm not) and terrorists are the MAIN REASON then can you explain to me why Bush handed over security contracts to your largest sea ports like New York to a company based out of the Middle East instead of keeping it under government control with homeland security?
This is a very deceptive statement if u know what ur talking about.
Wikipedia:
DP World is a company owned by the government of Dubai in the United Arab Emirates.

In March 2006, it purchased the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company (P&O) of the United Kingdom, which was then the fourth largest ports operator in the world, for £3.9 billion ($7 billion), beating a bid from Singapore's PSA International of £3.5 billion. P&O is one of the most famous names in British business, having been the largest shipping operator in the world at one time. DP World has promised to keep P&O's headquarters in London.

A list of current port locations run by DP...

Americas -4

1. Venezuela - Puerto Cabello
2. Dominican Republic - Puerto Caucedo
3. Argentina - [Puerto Nuevo T12&3]
4. Canada - Vancouver

Asia Pacific - 9

1. Australia - Adelaide
2. Hong Kong - CT3
3. Hong Kong - ACT
4. China - Tianjin
5. China - Yantai
6. Hong Kong - ATL
7. China - ATL Yantian
8. China - Shanghai Ji Fa
9. China - Yantian

West Asia / East Africa Region - 4

1. India - Cochin
2. India - Visakhapatnam
3. Saudi Arabia - Jeddah
4. Djibouti - Djibouti

Europe - 2

1. Germany - Germersheim
2. Romania - Constanṭa

UAE Ports - 2

1. Dubai Port
2. Fujairah Port


(refering to your previous post above)
explain to me why Bush handed over security contracts to your largest sea ports like New York to a company based out of the Middle East instead of keeping it under government control with the homeland
-He didn't hand it to them they bought another company.
-BTW not all countires in the middle east are evil taliban ppl, stop generalizing.
-"instead of keeping it under government control with the homeland" in never was under the control of the homeland, it wasn't even an american company in the first place that ran the ports.
-Dubai is one of the US's allies in the world BTW. IMO it's ignorant to lump all of the middle east together. (i know that there are labor injustices in Dubia, they are by no means perfect)
GDP - per capita: $43,400 (2005 est.)


and a little slap in the face. (factualy)
if you look at the facts canada has one of their major (i assume vancuver is major) ports run by them.

[Whisper]

what I care about is the fact that your leaving yourself vounerable in important areas such as ports and spending billions of dollars and allot of man power to protect low threat areas. No wait i dont care about that either...to be honest i'm more just insulted you (america) always treat us (canada) like shit and now your accusing my country of being a terrorist strong hold, thats just rude...hmmm okay lets for the sake of the debate say I give a flying fuck about you, I know, I know, hard to belive
work with me here!


-He didn't hand it to them they bought another company.
yea that right there is the problem isnt it
your securing your side doors and leaving the front one wide open last year americas defence budget was 3/4 of a trillion dollars you have 725 american millitary bases in 130 foreign countries yet for some reason you can't keep the protection of the american people at some of the largest commercial trading ports vital to your economy and PACKED with civilians safe yourselves? yet your willing to spend billions securing boarders where no terrorists have come from and even more to have military bases in some back water countries that most americans dont even know exist?

-BTW not all countires in the middle east are evil taliban ppl, stop generalizing.
hahaha your one to talk your saying all of Mexico is a heathonist country packed full of terrorists just itching to get into america so they can kill themselves and a few of you when none of them ever have...like EVER
-"instead of keeping it under government control with the homeland" in never was under the control of the homeland, it wasn't even an american company in the first place that ran the ports.
I know and thats sad
-Dubai is one of the US's allies in the world BTW. IMO it's ignorant to lump all of the middle east together. (i know that there are labor injustices in Dubia, they are by no means perfect)
GDP - per capita: $43,400 (2005 est.)
there your ally FOR NOW all throughout Americas history you use countries there your allies while it benifits you and then if they ever piss you off or opose you you crush them or topple there government they become another threat its happened countless times meh w/e



if you look at the facts canada has one of their major (i assume vancuver is major) ports run by them.
I know they control security at Vancouver and yes its a major west coast port
British Columbia is my home province I spent over half my life in a city just a two hour ferry ride away
I also know Harper wants to fix that but for the time being he has bigger fish to fry like the 15billion dollars hes spending on equipment for our military including securing our northern waters against you (america) and other countries like Russia who keep violating our boarder without permision


and a little slap in the face. (factualy)

BAHAHAHAHA your a cute lil kid
you have a HUGE fit and try to have Phantom banned because hes cocky and kicks your ass easily yet when you have the false impression you have a chance of winning your an even bigger ass

[mRojas2000]

I think there should be more immigrants security in every single country... im getting sick of looking at so many illegal arabs, indian, african..... i'm not racist, but they come here in thousands everyday thru ships, and im getting sick of everytime i pass by to rent a movie, i see someone putting up a new bed at home, with a bunch of luggage....

[Whisper]

dude America has grown to depend on the Mexican immigrants they do all the jobs your average american dosent want to
when they all went on strike in protest and had those huge ralleys all over america tens of thousands of bussiness were closed because they didnt have enough workers

besides America and Canada were born through immigration
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YhEl6HdfqWM

[mRojas2000]

i get that... but its getting to be a problem... way too many illegal immigrants... when i was going to orlando, i didnt really expect to be speaking spanish everywhere, with mexican, puertorican, and stuff... really, like, the only people i would speak english with was like an indian friend, my only american friend, and some puerto rican friends who didnt want to speak spanish...

[Whisper]

Just because someone speaks spanish dosent automatically make them an illigal immigrant
America only has one offical language but Spanish has always been widley spread in America just like French isa common in eastern canada and japanese is common in the western provinces like BC

[mRojas2000]

Just because someone speaks spanish dosent automatically make them an illigal immigrant
America only has one offical language but Spanish has always been widley spread in America just like French isa common in eastern canada and japanese is common in the western provinces like BC

im not saying that spanish makes them illegal immigrants... im saying that there are TOO MANY illegal or not immigrants...

[Whisper]

im not saying that spanish makes them illegal immigrants... im saying that there are TOO MANY illegal or not immigrants...
maybe in your country i dont know anything about Italian politics or the stability and prosperity of its economy but I do know America and Canada depend on them 99.9% of the illigal immigrants that have snuck accross the mexico boarder into California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas are just there because they cant survive in Mexico they cant take care of themselves or there children so they come to america they keep out of sight, they keep there head down they work for less then the legal minimum wadge because there not an american citizen there employer isnt bound by minimum wadge laws and they work
they do the jobs that most americans dont want and america has grown not only acustom to them but is starting to depend on them theres MILLIONS of them if there forced to all leave do you honestly think that wont effect the economy?

[mRojas2000]

well, here its horrible... every time you turn, you see eather an african, arab, indian, or asian...
this is making things bad, because illegal workers (which means that they work illegaly... without having an actual "papering" about they working, like a contract, and the bad thing about this, is that they might not even pay you, because it isnt even official that you work fot him/her/them), are going up, because most dont have their papers, thus being illegal. then, what we should call "legal" works are going downhill, because its really hard to find workers that are eather italian, or have legal papers...
then as everywhere there are people who sell pirated stuff... its funny because some days ago, i was walking by in a street market, and i was impressed of how much "illegal" stuff happens...
1st off, OBVIOUSLY there are pirated or not original things from really good marks, such as LV, NIKE, and stuff...
2nd. when you buy something, they eather dont give you a receip, or give you a wrong one, or geve you one with the wrong price... why this?? because of taxes... they have to pay a percentage of what they gain to the government...
3rd. police its always passing by, and they dont even notice... with the illegal marks, normally, they are african people with no official thing... like they have a blanket, and all their stuff in there, and when they hear a whistle, which somes from someone who sees the police, about two blocks away, they pick up, and wait... and with the receips, they can see it, and see what youve bought, and stuff, just to check if you have everything ok.. like if you didnt steal anything and stuff... as long as you have at least ONE receip, they wont even care.....


but thats just to tell you how things are here in italy... most of those things are done by illegal immigrants...

[cmpcmp]

what I care about is the fact that your leaving yourself vounerable in important areas such as ports and spending billions of dollars and allot of man power to protect low threat areas.
-I agree we should be a lot toughter on ports. But the border is a way that terrorist could easily (currently) get in, U are right though, the imigration issue is the bigger deal.
-There are many things that america has done to combat terrorism with things like the Patriot Act, homeleand security, better sharing of info between intelligence agencies (which wasn't before to stop an imballance of power), changes in the way money is handled didgitlay, and many secret programs.
(How could i know we have secret programs?, cuz the NYT has disclosed 2 already, which should be and is technicaly illegal.)

now your accusing my country of being a terrorist strong hold, thats just rude
Who's saying that ur country is a terrorist strong hold? are u talking about Newt? cuz he officaly oppoligized and said he was wrong.

yet your willing to spend billions securing boarders where no terrorists have come from
they definitely could, and as you have said, imigration is the larger issue there.

yet your willing to spend billions securing boarders where no terrorists have come from and even more to have military bases in some back water countries that most americans dont even know exist?
Some times the only way to keep peace is if every one else (most) knows that they can't possibly stand a chance agaist you. And why are they spread out? well its not good to have all of your money in one stock. Plus a quicker reaction time among other things.

hahaha your one to talk your saying all of Mexico is a heathonist country packed full of terrorists just itching to get into america so they can kill themselves and a few of you
-I never said anything about mexicans being terrorists, or heathens either. Maybe you should go back and read my post. It says if a terrorist were to go to a south american country, they could make their way south through the border. No where did i say mexico was full of terrorists.

Originally Posted by cmpcmp View Post
-"instead of keeping it under government control with the homeland" in never was under the control of the homeland, it wasn't even an american company in the first place that ran the ports.
then u posted....
I know and thats sad
How is it soo sad when ur country does the same thing? just because a foreign country runs your ports, and secutirty of the ports also, doesn't mean they are trying to get u, or that it makes you a lot more vonerable.

there your ally FOR NOW
Are you suggesting that we shouldn't do bussiness with foreign countries because we might betray them later? Thats rediculios logic. BTW dubia sells oil as only 1/20th of their GPD if thats what u were hinting at.

including securing our northern waters against you (america)
Cuz the suprise attack from the artic is coming any day now. Last time i checked america and canada were allies.

BAHAHAHAHA your a cute lil kid
you have a HUGE fit and try to have Phantom banned because hes cocky and kicks your ass easily yet when you have the false impression you have a chance of winning your an even bigger ass
-You have no idea what i look like
-"and kicks ur ass easily" me and phantom generaly agree (so far) on most of the posts we have been on, so why would either of us loose to eachother? and no one has clearly been a "victor" or "kicked anyones ass" really.
-I don't want phantom banned, i just don't like flaming, and the best way to stop it is to warn/suspend/even bann sometimes the ppl who do it.
-i didn't have a "huge fit", there was a flameless, and curseless discussion. I am trying to avoid problems before they happen.
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when you have the false impression you have a chance of winning your an even bigger ass
-being an ass my saying "slap in the face (factualy)"?

let me lay out the situation as it unfolded....
YOU said
can you explain to me why Bush handed over security contracts to your largest sea ports like New York to a company based out of the Middle East instead of keeping it under government control with homeland security?
-This post definitly implies that it is not in a nations best security interests to have their ports ran by a middle-eastern company (DPW)

then I said....
4. Canada - Vancouver (run by DPW).....
if you look at the facts canada has one of their major (i assume vancuver is major) ports run by them.
-So since you (correct me if im wrong) said in the earlier quote that you need an explanation for why Bush would allow DPW to run our ports, meaning that you think that it isn't a good idea and need other convincing.

This is ironic becuase the port that is in ur same province is run by the same company, and you didn't sayanything bad about that, but later you said

I also know Harper wants to fix that but for the time being he has bigger fish to fry
-if harper gets a pass because he has "bigger fish to fry" then wouldn't Bush also get a pass? as he has metaphoricly many large fish to fry?
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what do you think that america shuld do with the mexican border?

[cmpcmp]

Does any one else have an opinon on what should be done about the mexican border?
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mRojas2000, i understand ur stance but keep in mind this HUGE fact

212th (out of 226 in the WORLD) Italy 1.28 children born per woman 2006 est.

Italians aren't replacing them selves, and at a phenominal rate to. when the next 2 generations or 3 are born and the old die of old age, and there weren't any imigants, then the population would be falling exponentianly (pop*.64 per generation)

so the current population in Italy is 58,133,509
in one like 80 year span, when every body alive now has died, the population would have fallen lower than 25 million, a lot lower. How werid would it be to have lost your population to your self? this trend is almos below 2.0 in the US. Imagine the entire world is undone not by nature or over popultaion, but because people stop having children.