Ben Quayle

[Amnesiac]

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Do you think Ben Quayle, in his commercial here as a Republican running for a congressional seat in Arizona (:rolleyes:) this year, is pandering to tea partiers and other far-right-wing voters; capitalizing on the ultra-conservative base in Arizona just so he can get elected?

Also, do you think Obama is the "worst president in history"? Major achievements such as healthcare and financial reform can't go unnoticed. I'm not an Obamacrat and I don't think he's doing a great job, he certainly won't go down as one of the best presidents for failing to pass much new legislation with the supermajority in Congress that was given to him. However, the handful of major changes he's put through are respectable and I wouldn't consider him one of the worst presidents of all time.

[Church]

To bad he isnt running in Kansas, I'd vote for him.

[Dorsum Oppel]

People are seriously getting their knickers in a knot over Obama. Last time I checked, Obama never cause the trail of tears, or started a war in the middle east, or instituted the cold war. He's not a demon. Albeit, he's not like the super epic angelic wonderful happy fun time cool bro president, and he hasn't changed America like he promised, but he's not the worst president ever.

I'm suspicious of anyone who says that they were "raised right".

[Church]

Well I agree with war in middle east, Cold War really wasnt our fault fully was Russia to, and Trail of Tears was one of those things in history that you may not like but kinda had to happen.

[Perseus]

Well I agree with war in middle east, Cold War really wasnt our fault fully was Russia to, and Trail of Tears was one of those things in history that you may not like but kinda had to happen.

What do you mean "kinda had to happen"? Killing Native Americans kinda didn't have to happen, dude.

[Church]

Well I dont think anyone wanted them to kill settlers, also the Trail of Tears was moving em, not a genocide.

[Perseus]

Well I dont think anyone wanted them to kill settlers, also the Trail of Tears was moving em, not a genocide.

They were killing settlers because the American Government fucked them over. The Cherokee settled down and tried to mix with the white populace, but nope, they got fucked over in the end. The Trail of Tears was pretty much a genocide because SO MANY PEOPLE DIED DUE TO OUR GOVERNMENT PUTTING THEM SOMEWHERE ELSE where they wouldn't have to see them.

[Dorsum Oppel]

Well I dont think anyone wanted them to kill settlers, also the Trail of Tears was moving em, not a genocide.

Uh, it was kinda their land. If foreign nations came in and settled on our land without permission, we would be volatile too. American settlers had absolutely no right to force them out. 4,000 of the 15,000 relocated Cherokee died. That's only one tribe.

[Church]

Yea but we did, history is history, cant redo it so can only learn from it, also I never said 'yay dead indians' its sucks a lot of em died but we took their land and they still have reservations, better than just killing em all.

[Dorsum Oppel]

Yea but we did, history is history, cant redo it so can only learn from it, also I never said 'yay dead indians' its sucks a lot of em died but we took their land and they still have reservations, better than just killing em all.

But it never had to happen. Plus, reservations are not a nice place to live my friend. The conditions seriously suck. We stole their way of life an culture, it's a VERY big deal. You're putting the values and rights of one race below another, as if the Native Americans should have just bowed down and handed over their homeland.

[Church]

So I guess we dont need all those resources etc, never become such a big super power, and since we would of been a weaker country we wouldn't of been able to fight Japan or Nazi Germany in WW2 leaving millions more dead, guess thats better than Indians being moved off their homeland.

[dead]

So I guess we dont need all those resources etc, never become such a big super power, and since we would of been a weaker country we wouldn't of been able to fight Japan or Nazi Germany in WW2 leaving millions more dead, guess thats better than Indians being moved off their homeland.

If you change something in the past you change the future, so this is illogical.

[Church]

I dont think America not being the full power it is would have any effect on the Holocaust etc

[Perseus]

So I guess we dont need all those resources etc, never become such a big super power, and since we would of been a weaker country we wouldn't of been able to fight Japan or Nazi Germany in WW2 leaving millions more dead, guess thats better than Indians being moved off their homeland.

What does moving NATIVE AMERICANS off of their land have to do with Nazi Germany? If America would have never infringed upon their treaties with the Native Americans, none of this would have had to happen.

[Dorsum Oppel]

So I guess we dont need all those resources etc, never become such a big super power,

Who fucking cares if we're a superpower? We compromised human rights, lives, and heritage, and for what? Some cash, land, glory. Bragging rights. Satisfaction of thirsty greed for money and power.

and since we would of been a weaker country we wouldn't of been able to fight Japan or Nazi Germany in WW2 leaving millions more dead, guess thats better than Indians being moved off their homeland.

We could sit here and argue alternate history all day long. Neither of us know what would've happened if the British stayed in england. Or any other number of alternate histories. But when we are debating the worst presidents, Andrew Jackson actually commit an ethnic cleansing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing), which is no where near anything Obama has done. Not even on the same level.

[Church]

Alot of people compromise human rights, Indians took each other prisoner and made em slaves etc, they tried to completely wipe out rival tribes etc. So dont think they're innocent saints and were evil savages.

[Perseus]

Alot of people compromise human rights, Indians took each other prisoner and made em slaves etc, they tried to completely wipe out rival tribes etc. So dont think they're innocent saints and were evil savages.

Your point on that? Native Americans were doing fine before Columbus showed up. The Inca were wiped out by the Spanish because of small pox. Native Americans were actually doing really fine before any Europeans showed up. I read a book about pre-Columbus America, and it's not like you think.

[Church]

I just dont see the logic behind people who think like you guys, you would rather America never had happened and God knows what would happen. Maybe a successful holocaust, Russia inventing nukes themselves and using them.

If you wanna do something bout the Indians now a days go donate to a charity that improves their reservations, saying 'we should of never done it' doesn't change that it happened or does it help indians now a days anyways.

[Amnesiac]

So I guess we dont need all those resources etc, never become such a big super power, and since we would of been a weaker country we wouldn't of been able to fight Japan or Nazi Germany in WW2 leaving millions more dead, guess thats better than Indians being moved off their homeland.

I would argue that if we had treated Natives better, they would "merge" into American society and actually make it more productive. They were in the process of doing that when Jackson decided, blindly, to force them westward. The Indians were diplomatic with settlers in many cases, that's not debatable.

EDIT:
I just dont see the logic behind people who think like you guys, you would rather America never had happened and God knows what would happen. Maybe a successful holocaust, Russia inventing nukes themselves and using them.

If you wanna do something bout the Indians now a days go donate to a charity that improves their reservations, saying 'we should of never done it' doesn't change that it happened or does it help indians now a days anyways.

Just because we disagree with you on the history of Native Americans doesn't mean we advocate the holocaust or the USSR's actions in the Cold War. It was necessary for the United States to protect its democratic interests in those situations. However, America's now going too far and policing the world, which is unhealthy. What other nations do with their governments, unless it's genocide or dictatorship, is none of our business.

Can we get back to talking about Ben Quayle now?

[Church]

I'm not saying its a good thing they were forced to move, but it happened. It would be better if they were assimilated into American life but I doubt that could really happen with the racism toward them and most of them being racist towards whites.

But like I said we cant change the past but merely try to better ourselves from it.

[Perseus]

I just dont see the logic behind people who think like you guys, you would rather America never had happened and God knows what would happen. Maybe a successful holocaust, Russia inventing nukes themselves and using them.

If you wanna do something bout the Indians now a days go donate to a charity that improves their reservations, saying 'we should of never done it' doesn't change that it happened or does it help indians now a days anyways.

You don't get our points at all, apparently.


Can we get back to talking about Ben Quayle now?
No. :P

[Amnesiac]

No. :P

Then I'll just wait for teh modz to get here :rolleyes::P

[Perseus]

Then I'll just wait for teh modz to get here :rolleyes::P

Oh sheesh, y'all. 'Twas a joke. (Yes, I sort of changed a quote from Amir into my own version for those of you who know what I'm talking about)

[Amnesiac]

Oh sheesh, y'all. 'Twas a joke.

Ha, it's not like I'm gonna call the mods saying "THEY'RE OFF TOPIC!"

no, I was kidding.