Communism: A flaw idea even in perfect form.

[Church]

The reason the title is what it is is because Communism even in its true form is unfair to people.

They say all should be equal and treated and payed same etc.

But guess what, if I go out and work 12 hours and you work 5 I dont wanna be fair, I deserve more promotions etc and recognition and money.

Also people we'll never be fully equal and the government cant force that.

[Joey15]

The road in america is becoming more and more socialist and as you see americans are becoming lazier and lazier

[Aspiringanonymous]

Communism in its true form is a stateless, classless, moneyless society. The concept of financial earnings wouldn't even exist.

It is a flawed idea because it isn't possible to attain.

[Amnesiac]

The road in america is becoming more and more socialist and as you see americans are becoming lazier and lazier

The United States is the least socialist country I've ever lived in. There are other Western nations that lean more towards socialism than the U.S., and because of that they're better off. Take, for example, Australia and Canada's universal healthcare systems. Their citizens are better off because of all that nasty "socialism" that's going on there.

Just because the government wishes to provide more social welfare and impose more economic regulation doesn't make the United States anything close to a socialist state. Free-market capitalism, without regulation, is just as ridiculous as "communism in its true form". In one you're letting corporations run wild without any limitations, in the other you have no economy at all.

Laziness is also not a socialist quality.

[Whisper]

The reason the title is what it is is because Communism even in its true form is unfair to people.

They say all should be equal and treated and payed same etc.

But guess what, if I go out and work 12 hours and you work 5 I dont wanna be fair, I deserve more promotions etc and recognition and money.

Also people we'll never be fully equal and the government cant force that.

The idea of Communism isn't flawed
Humanity is
In order for true communism to prosper you need a just, selfless, incorruptible populous
but the sad truth is everybody has a price, you just need to know where to apply the correct pressure
their 30 pieces of silver
and as such communism is doomed to fail

[The Dark Lord]

the principles of communism go against human nature. Of course communism is flawed, why should a doctor be payed the same as a bus driver

[SirRawrsalot]

They both make large contributions to society, whether they (or anyone else) know it or not.

[Rutherford The Brave]

The road in america is becoming more and more socialist and as you see americans are becoming lazier and lazier

Americans, are always lazy...Being socialist has nothing to do with it... Actually, Conservatives have the most hands off methods to be honest...They would seem lazier in all honesty. Something goes wrong with the economy, ah no biggie it'll sort itself out.

[Dorsum Oppel]

the principles of communism go against human nature. Of course communism is flawed, why should a doctor be payed the same as a bus driver

You're missing the point. No one is payed. There is no monetary exchange.

[Continuum]

You can't have a perfect society unless you don't have the perfect people. That is, those who can tolerate temptations of power and money. Having a bunch of power hungry loons as leaders to a helpless society of peasants? The reign wouldn't last long because you can't have a bunch of ants working for you without one of them aspiring on their own.

[The Dark Lord]

You're missing the point. No one is payed. There is no monetary exchange.

Okay, why would a cleaner be considered equal to a doctor. Communism is deeply flawed and totally unrealistic

[Dorsum Oppel]

Okay, why would a cleaner be considered equal to a doctor. Communism is deeply flawed and totally unrealistic

Both are totally necessary to civilized human life. Without those workers, we'd all be doomed to roll around in our own shit. They are the people that make your life easier, safer, and clean. They are just as valuable as a doctor, they just happen to work on a different level of service.

[Socialist]

the principles of communism go against human nature. Of course communism is flawed, why should a doctor be payed the same as a bus driver

I believe people naturally like to be happy and make others happy. But greed has corrupted that natural desire. Socialism mitigates greedy behavior.

[CaptainObvious]

The reason the title is what it is is because Communism even in its true form is unfair to people.

They say all should be equal and treated and payed same etc.

But guess what, if I go out and work 12 hours and you work 5 I dont wanna be fair, I deserve more promotions etc and recognition and money.

Also people we'll never be fully equal and the government cant force that.

Why do you deserve more recognitions, promotions and money? The foundational point of communism is that no human deserves more than any other regardless of what else they contribute to society.

Of course, in practice this leads to communist societies being dysfunctional and inefficient. But you can't just say "you're wrong, I deserve more for working harder", because that's precisely not the point of view that communism takes. If you want to argue it, so be it, but you can't just make the statement.

[maestro15]

If Humans were treated equally, The world would be different because every one has different thoughts and ideas on how to live. If we were to be treated the same under communism, we would be following the thoughts, ideas, and rules of one communist leader.
Also if you look into nature, its all about survival of the fittest! not one thing in earth or in Nature is treated the same. I would just accept that life isnt fare, but an unfair world makes a perfect world. I mean If you are the CEO of a multi billion corporation, would you like to be paid the same as a garbage guy. I dont think so

[huginnmuninn]

in a very very small group of people who choose to live by a communist idea then it might work but in large groups of people who dont want to be communist or people who want to corrupt the system it will never work

[Dorsum Oppel]

If Humans were treated equally, The world would be different because every one has different thoughts and ideas on how to live. If we were to be treated the same under communism, we would be following the thoughts, ideas, and rules of one communist leader.
Also if you look into nature, its all about survival of the fittest! not one thing in earth or in Nature is treated the same. I would just accept that life isnt fare, but an unfair world makes a perfect world. I mean If you are the CEO of a multi billion corporation, would you like to be paid the same as a garbage guy. I dont think so

That's absolutely ridiculous. First of all, just because two jobs are valued equally, doesn't mean we'll all turn into commy-clones or something. Also. Please read the fucking communist manifesto, there is no one leader, that's socialism.

If we were a communist nation, there would be no multi-billion dollar corporations. Lolderp. Honestly, the garbage guy does a good deal more good to society than some shmuck who feeds off our money.

[Sage]

I believe people naturally like to be happy and make others happy. But greed has corrupted that natural desire. Socialism mitigates greedy behavior.

Error: Greed is also a natural desire.

[ZodiacKiller]

Okay. Why should one person be righted to a better life than another. Are you saying that those who are naturally less intelligent and athletic and manually skilled and socially skilled ought to have better lives. The ver first fricking line of the Declaration of Independence is "Holding these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal...". Our nation is built on euality. Democracy aims for equal voice, and if you watch history's trends you see a push for the middle class, then once the middle class is strong, a push for the upper class ect... This is because as one gains power the others realize that this is corrupt. Communism means that everyone is equal right off the bat- no exceptions. It's the ultimate equality.
Socialist communist just corrupts it by implementing a leader system, meaning that those in power can conspire to increase their power.
Communism doesn't feed greed, it crushes attempts at it. The problem is, at this point (through globalisation), this cannot be acheived. It used to be though. Though they didn't classify themselves as Communist, native americans were.

[Sage]

Why should one person be righted to a better life than another.
Because one person may work harder and contribute more to society/the world than others.

Are you saying that those who are naturally less intelligent and athletic and manually skilled and socially skilled ought to have better lives.
All those problems can be solved. You get more intelligent by studying in school. You get more athletic by exercising. You get more manually skilled by practicing and learning from someone more experienced. You get more socially skilled by talking to people. If you don't want to do those to better yourself, tough luck, you deserve to be poor because you can do things but choose not to.

The ver first fricking line of the Declaration of Independence is "Holding these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal...".
Created equal does not mean they remain so.

Our nation is built on euality.
America is built off the backs of slaves and natives. History shows that equality has not existed (and still does not exist in some aspects) since the very beginning.

Democracy aims for equal voice, and if you watch history's trends you see a push for the middle class, then once the middle class is strong, a push for the upper class ect...
There is no middle class. The average income of the average person is absolutely nothing compared to the 10% most wealthy people in the country.


Socialist communist just corrupts it by implementing a leader system, meaning that those in power can conspire to increase their power.
Yeah, they can, which is why people need to be vigilant and well-informed to prevent their leaders from fucking them over.

Communism doesn't feed greed, it crushes attempts at it.
And this is why communism will ALWAYS fail because humans are naturally greedy and nothing you can instill in people culturally will change that.

[huginnmuninn]

Okay. Why should one person be righted to a better life than another. Are you saying that those who are naturally less intelligent and athletic and manually skilled and socially skilled ought to have better lives.

its called the survival of the fittest


if i go to college for years and pay thousands of dollars to go there and become a doctor id better get paid more than somebody who didnt which is why communism wont work. some peoople work harder than others and they dexerve more than the people who work less hard

[Continuum]

its called the survival of the fittest


if i go to college for years and pay thousands of dollars to go there and become a doctor id better get paid more than somebody who didnt which is why communism wont work. some peoople work harder than others and they dexerve more than the people who work less hard

It doesn't just work that way. It depends also on the weight of the task they are doing, its benefits for the community or another, and the person's current position. Also, the cost of living is considered during pay.

[huginnmuninn]

It doesn't just work that way. It depends also on the weight of the task they are doing, its benefits for the community or another, and the person's current position. Also, the cost of living is considered during pay.

ok what about people who dont do anything even though they have the ability to do so

[Continuum]

ok what about people who dont do anything even though they have the ability to do so

Probably he/she is a bum, or cannot support the other spendings alongside a job (transportation, food, etc.). That's why communism was born, by forcing labor and everyone having the same thing for breakfast, lunch or dinner, its an effective way to keep them lazy bums working. Or else no food for the rest of the month!

[The Dark Lord]

Probably he/she is a bum, or cannot support the other spendings alongside a job (transportation, food, etc.). That's why communism was born, by forcing labor and everyone having the same thing for breakfast, lunch or dinner, its an effective way to keep them lazy bums working. Or else no food for the rest of the month!

Communism is flawed for the simple reason that it goes against the basic human nature of greed.

[Sage]

Communism is flawed for the simple reason that it goes against the basic human nature of greed.

It's not bad to go against greed. It's bad to try to eliminate it from everyone forever.

[ZodiacKiller]

I don't beleive in god, but I don't beleive in humans.
What I mean is, I don't think it's the right of a human to say, "I'm superior to you," to another human. Regardless, people do this. It's not moral thoug, because morals do not exist, only opinions of them.
Thus, you cannot say, "I work harder, therefore, I must be superior, or more moral than you". First, you are saying hard work is good, which is a moral, which you CANNOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES prove. Every moral is built on a premise, and every premise is a opinion.
More importantly, you cannot say, "I am more moral than you, thus I deserve a better life than you." Such statements prove the speaker immoral.

[Sage]

I don't beleive in god, but I don't beleive in humans.
What I mean is, I don't think it's the right of a human to say, "I'm superior to you," to another human. Regardless, people do this. It's not moral thoug, because morals do not exist, only opinions of them.
Thus, you cannot say, "I work harder, therefore, I must be superior, or more moral than you". First, you are saying hard work is good, which is a moral, which you CANNOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES prove. Every moral is built on a premise, and every premise is a opinion.
More importantly, you cannot say, "I am more moral than you, thus I deserve a better life than you." Such statements prove the speaker immoral.

I disagree with your premise that morality can only exist if it's objective, and similarly, everyone may have an opinion, but some opinions are more well-argued and founded in logic and reason than others. "The Holocaust was a good thing" is an opinion, just as "The Holocaust was a bad thing" is also an opinion. One of the two opinions, however, can be more easily argued.

Also, anybody can say they are superior to anybody else. It simply does not become justified or true until the person being spoken down to accepts it.

[ZodiacKiller]

No. Just no.

Argument is no proof, for the arguments you bring to mind are only premises based on societal value. For example:
"Rape is bad."
"Why? What evidence is there of that?"
"Well it causes psychological damage (and sometimes physical) to its victims."
"How is that bad. What proof is there that that is bad?"
"It prevents the victim from functioning fully."
"How is that bad? What proof is there that that is bad?"

As you can see this goes on forever. Personally, I despise rape, but no "argument" can be made for morals. Morals are ALWAYS relative.
The only reason one of those is more easily argued is because society (as we know it today) supports one side, but there is no real proof of it. Whenever I take friends through the above rape conversation it always ends up as "Because society tells me so." Guess what? Society used to beleive in slavery (not saying slavery is bad- nor am I saying it isn't).

[Sage]

Argument is no proof

Not always, but argument and debate are what we use to decide how to run society. If you don't like that, you're more than welcomed to move to a society where you can't argue your opinions and have your say in things.

[ZodiacKiller]

ah, we are getting somewhere.
Argument and debate do run society, but that does not mean that they are backed up in fact.

You said that we can argue for/against the holocaust more easily than the other, but that's a matter of opinion and thus not backed in fact. I will not go backwards because you deny yourself: you said "Not always, but argument and debate are what we use to decide how to run society," then gave no reason to beleive argument is ever proof.

At this point, I return to the original dilemma. If you cannot argue premises for superiority, you cannot claim that anyone is superior to another, and thus cannot give one person's life more signifigance.

[thebandgeek]

Communism is one of those ideas that looks good on paper, but not in the real world. If everybody truely embraced the ideals of it, it MIGHT work, but there is always one person who takes advantage of it. Look at Communist Russia. It was good for about a year. Then it went to h*ll. It just wouldn't work in todays society.

[ZodiacKiller]

@thebandgeek
that's the difference between socialist communism and normal communism. if you read the thread title it qualifies "in perfect form"

[huginnmuninn]

the only way that this would work as ive said before is for people who willingly do it and it would have to be in small groups of people maybe a thousand

[ZodiacKiller]

I agree with huginnmininn.