Religion

[nachtspiegel]

What do you believe and why do you believe it?

[cmpcmp]

well i believe in a "God" of some sort as a creator, Im nor sure to what other extent, I see god in the creation as something can't come out of nothing. but i don't follow a religion as there are so many and there fore so many that are wrong (maybe all of them?).

any ways i picked other

[Ravenous]

Your options are veeeery limited.. no judaism, no islam no sikhism, buddhism and hinduism together?
Could have made it a bit more open..
I'm agnostic.

[Melchi0r]

I definately believe in a Creator, Supreme Being, etc. who I think is God. I don't quite believe in Adam and Eve being the first two human beings. I think God didn't create man at first, He first created dinosaurs but wiped them out. Then He helped life along afterwards and when primates came along, He had the idea for humans, so He made evolution happen. I think God made evolution happen because for apes to evolve into humans by mutations and stuff is very unlikely and would take a lot longer than it actually took, IMO.

You are very right, -[[NeverLetGo]]-, I hate wars over religion and lots of Christians believing they're superior to atheists, Jews, Muslims, etc. and being hateful to their fellow man cuz they don't go to Christian church every Sunday. Combining all religions into a loving, accepting, very flexible one we could finally live in peace. Yeah I know, wishful thinking, but in the words of John Lennon "You may say I'm a dreamer/But I'm not the only one/Someday you might join us/And the world will be as one"

[Coesistere]

what up:] my faith kind of weird. im chistian but i dont belive in jesus or hell or the bible!! a little stange but i do belive in god and heaven. that me for ya :)!!!:yeah:

[Melchi0r]

If you don't believe in Jesus, that probably doesn't make you a Christian...

[kolte]

I don't believe in god. I don't believe in any kind of religious philosophy or anything similer. It maks me angry to even think about the horrors of religion. I think we should all burn our bibles.

I did hear an interesting idology from a friend of mine though. He said, that this is what he got from the bible:

In the beginning god created a perfect world. And there was no sin or hate or any of that. But there was an uprising in heaven and Lucifer, God's most prized angel, was cast out of Heaven down into the pits of hell ((werever this "hell" is)) along with 2/3 of the angels of heaven. Satan then began to "fuck" with gods perfect world, tainting humankind. This created free will. A good against evil kind of dilema. And this tension between good and evil, between satan and god, will eventually snap, and the war of armageddon will be upon us. Humans simply cought in a power struggle between two heavenly beings. But we are the last army, whos side do we choose?

And the bible is so contradictory and BS becasue god is an absent god. He allows us to live independently and satan taints us. So literally, even the bible is no pure.


Its all bs of course. But interesting sounding. Would make a good book ((HAHAHAHAHAHA))

[Aηdy]

I dont follow any religion, to me it's stupid, tho i have nothing against religious people. It is mostly the cause of wars and terrorism ect.

[mRojas2000]

I'm not that religious... I say I have my own kinda religion because I think that the church is full of shit, and all they want its power, and more of it, like normal human beings. My religion, only follows god and Jesus... nothing more, nothing less. I beleive in god and Jesus, but I think that the church is full of bs.
I don't agree with half their rules.

[Aηdy]

but I think that the church is full of bs.


Im with you there XD But i mean where has religion got us in this world?? it has brang us war, hate.. oh yeah and some amazing miracles that have saved peoples lives... 2 words.. bull shit :)

[mRojas2000]

Im with you there XD But i mean where has religion got us in this world?? it has brang us war, hate.. oh yeah and some amazing miracles that have saved peoples lives... 2 words.. bull shit :)

:)

Why do we need churches? why do we need buildings to show our faith? Can't I just be faithfull and done? NO! I have to go to church, loose one hour a week of my life, then confess all the shit I do to someone I don't even know, to take some bread, and wine.. I have tons of it at home!

[Aηdy]

Lmao, do your family make you go?

[mRojas2000]

Lmao, do your family make you go?

NO! thank god (lol)
My mom beleives the same I do...
I don't need someone to force me to do something if I don't want to anyways. IF she ever goes, she asks me if I wanna go... I don't have to

[Aηdy]

Oh right, at least your not forced to go.. even all the crap in the bible is a made up load of crap XD I dont wish to offend anyone.

[mRojas2000]

Oh right, at least your not forced to go.. even all the crap in the bible is a made up load of crap XD I dont wish to offend anyone.

But its true... people wrote the bible.
HUMAN BEINGS wrote the bible, so it doesn't really have to be true what they say... no one's perfect

[Aηdy]

What is War? War is fear of Peace.
What is Peace? Peace is Loving Calm.
What is Fear? Fear is Ignorant Hate.
What is Hate? Hate is Corrupt Peace.
What is Love? Love is Fearless Peace.

This comes into what we are saying quite a bit here

[Melchi0r]

I think the reason that God is "absent" in saving us from evil (someone brought this up) is because he gave us free will and He'd want us to make the right decision ourselves, so we can sort of be our own deliverers from evil.

And I think that God doesn't save us from death lots of the time is because maybe the person who's dying, he's made plans for them in their afterlife so he's just gonna let it happen cuz he knows their spirit will be o.k.

[Phantom]

I think the reason that God is "absent" in saving us from evil (someone brought this up) is because he gave us free will and He'd want us to make the right decision ourselves, so we can sort of be our own deliverers from evil.

And I think that God doesn't save us from lots of the time is because maybe the person who's dying, he's made plans for them in their afterlife so he's just gonna let it happen cuz he knows their spirit will be o.k.cough*BS exsuse cough*

[Melchi0r]

cough*BS exsuse cough*

Ugh, why haven't you been banned yet? I'm sorry that our views differ. I'll immediately become an atheist to save myself from further stupidity.

[Phantom]

Ugh, why haven't you been banned yet? I'm sorry that our views differ. I'll immediately become an atheist to save myself from further stupidity.It is a BS excuse. We would still have free will if god showed us he was real. Acording to the bible jesus showed himself to thousands after he rose.

[kolte]

not to mention god to moses, and according to the bible tons of other peoples. He spoke to hundrends in the bible. And the whole argument for god from mankind just simply doesnt make coherent since. Its foolish.

[Phantom]

not to mention god to moses, and according to the bible tons of other peoples. He spoke to hundrends in the bible. And the whole argument for god from mankind just simply doesnt make coherent since. Its foolish.O yeah good point about the god moses one.

[Melchi0r]

It is a BS excuse. We would still have free will if god showed us he was real. Acording to the bible jesus showed himself to thousands after he rose.


.... did I say we'd have no free will if God revealed himself? And how can any of us think they know how God should behave?

[R_master]

people that bash religion are no better than the fanatics.

[Melchi0r]

people that bash religion are no better than the fanatics.

Thank you for saying that.

I could go ranty and ravey on atheists and say that they're sinful and are ungodly and are going to Hell and that they suck or whatever but I won't and don't because I have to maintain my dignity, it's against my religion to do so, and it won't make me any better than them. But the people who I choose to not attack for their beliefs are attacking me for mine. I understand why someone'd treat TheLordsServant that way (sorry, man, but you know, what goes around comes around) but I haven't gone been rude, snobby or preachy so why am I being attacked?

[Hyper]

]-;102570']One question that really has been on my mind...and other opinions.

First off, why do members of one faith criticize members of another? How can we know for sure that our faith is right?

I think that every major religion in the world holds a piece of the truth. If they all started acting in the manner they say they should, then maybe we could find the real truth.

Personally...I believe in a higher entity. Right now that idea is with belief in God. However, I don't label myself 'Christian' because I don't agree with some of the Christian beliefs. I agree with the beliefs of the Baptist denomination the most, though. I was raised Baptist. My mother was raised Catholic but at 17 broke away, my dad was raised Baptist.

I don't believe in the traditional fire and brimstone hell, though. I believe that if you die and your not worthy of God and the light, your soul stays here on Earth.

When it comes to the Islam world's anger at the Pope's statements, here's what I have to say:

1) The Pope quoted the writing that stated the Islam is violent and evil.
2) The Islam responds how? By violence!

so..yea...

What do you believe and why do you believe it?


Well I voted Christian/Catholic but in reality I pretty much belive in God and all but I dont agree with the views of the church.. And I agree with you on the thought that all the major religions have some trueth in it. And by your soul staying on earth well that can be compared to Hell

[kolte]

christianity is an abomination. it should be destroyed. hope i answerd your question panic.

[cmpcmp]

people that bash religion are no better than the fanatics.
lol, do u realize what this says?
-If i bash a fanatic's religion that makes me a fanatic? that makes no sense.
example
-radical islam is an immoral, decitful, and wrong practice. It goes against all common sense and should be destroyed.
(just bashed a religion) so am i a fanatic now?

-unless your like an 'anti-religion fenatic' that kills religious ppl, you aren't
an 'anti-religion fenatic'

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-If you have done someone that is 'wrong' (as in right and wrong), and used religion to justify it, u better be prepared for a good bashing of your religion by me every time you do it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

[Makod]

No, people who bash religions are not as bad as fanatics, they ARE fanatics.

All we can do is believe what we believe, and hope it's true.

[R_master]

i thought this forum was called Ramblings of the Wise, not dyslexic bigot fest 06.

im dissapointed :/

[Makod]

i thought this forum was called Ramblings of the Wise, not dyslexic bigot fest 06.

im dissapointed :/

Haha... the irony.

[xYourxMomx45]

well, i dont know about the other religions, but im catholic and ive been to a jewish church and a protestant church and they, for some reason, made fun of catholics. i thought that was weird, because at a catholic mass, we dont rip on other religions, we stick to our own and follow our beliefs, just sayin.

[Melchi0r]

i thought this forum was called Ramblings of the Wise, not dyslexic bigot fest 06.

im dissapointed :/

Quoted for Absolute Truth.

[cmpcmp]

people that bash religion are no better than the fanatics.
ok fine, it doesn't make me a fatatic but according to the quote

-I would be "no better than the fanatics"

Bash:To criticize (another) harshly, accusatorially, and threateningly

if i "bash" radical islam do you truth fully believe that that makes me just as bad if not worse (it says no better than) the radical fanatics?


No, people who bash religions are not as bad as fanatics, they ARE fanatics.

Im confused, are you saying that....?
-ppl who bash religion are fanatics?
-or that they aren't as bad as the other ppl because the other ppl are fanatics?

[Makod]

Im confused, are you saying that....?
-ppl who bash religion are fanatics?
-or that they aren't as bad as the other ppl because the other ppl are fanatics?
No, people who bash religions are not as bad as fanatics, they ARE fanatics.

Just read what I said VERY carefully, you might see the answer.

[cmpcmp]

Im genuinely confused can u please reword your statement?

[Makod]

No, people who bash religions are not as bad as fanatics, they ARE fanatics.

See it now?

I'm saying the people who bash religion are also fanatics.

[Whisper]

oh so were supposed to just lay down and let them kick us around? murder inocent people, treat women like shit, attack scientists and real cold hard facts
go to war against "evil" leading to tens of thousands of deaths?

yet were the fanatics? fool

[Phantom]

Everybody Stfu About The F*cking Fanatic Thing!!! Its Been Going On For Like 2 Pages Ffs!! You Are Not A Fanatic If You Bash Religions For Utter Stupidity Of Them! Makod You F*cking Bash Christianity All The F*cking Time!! Dosnt That Make You A Fanatic!!!

[Phantom]

oh so were supposed to just lay down and let them kick us around? inocent people, treat women like , attack scientists and real cold hard facts
go to war against "evil" leading to tens of thousands of s?

yet were the fanatics? foolQFT quoted for absolute truth

[Melchi0r]

Everybody Stfu About The F*cking Fanatic Thing!!! Its Been Going On For Like 2 Pages Ffs!! You Are Not A Fanatic If You Bash Religions For Utter Stupidity Of Them! Makod You F*cking Bash Christianity All The F*cking Time!! Dosnt That Make You A Fanatic!!!

For once I appreciate something you say...

In my opinion Christians have made the religion go the total wrong way and it's gonna be hard to make it like it should be. No where in the Bible or anywhere does it say we should kill people and be assholes so it makes me wonder why Christians like to be that way and still consider themselves "holy".

[cmpcmp]

-thank you for clarifying,
-and i would STFU about the thing, but Makod's opionon makes no sense, and he is using it to reason in this thread

[Melchi0r]

-thank you for clarifying,
-and i would STFU about the thing, but Makod's opionon makes no sense, and he is using it to reason in this thread

I agree.

[Hyper]

Hmm if you live by cold hard facts and logics nothing makes sense

So here.. Do you people realy belive religions are just religions? No their not just for a religious cause.. As always everything is manipulated for benefit. Just as religion is manipulated for benefit. And as for an example guess what started the fall of communism in a sense it was the Vatican and the pope, guess who supported the pope USA did guess who else was trying to manipulate with the Vatican at the same time, yes thats right USSR

[Makod]

My opinion is: both sides are fanatics.
How does that not make sense? Jeez.

I'm sorry I must have worded it wrong before.


Everybody Stfu About The F*cking Fanatic Thing!!! Its Been Going On For Like 2 Pages Ffs!! You Are Not A Fanatic If You Bash Religions For Utter Stupidity Of Them! Makod You F*cking Bash Christianity All The F*cking Time!! Dosnt That Make You A Fanatic!!!

This made me lol, I'm surprised you all "respect" and "appreciate" these kinds of outbursts.
oh so were supposed to just lay down and let them kick us around? murder inocent people, treat women like shit, attack scientists and real cold hard facts
go to war against "evil" leading to tens of thousands of deaths?

yet were the fanatics? fool
Ok... so.... when did I say defending yourself makes you a fanatic?
I'm sorry, it's the people who make sweeping judgements of religions who are also fanatics (along with religious fanatics). For example: Phantom

[Phantom]

My opinion is: both sides are fanatics.

How does that not make sense? Jeez.Both sides of what?

[Makod]

Both sides of what?

The people who bash religion and the people who are taking religion to the extreme.

There are many similarities.

Compare xTheLordsServantx to yourself.

Edit: I'm sorry if that seems harsh to you but you've been pissing me off with your extreme ignorance of the world around you.

[Phantom]

The people who bash religion and the people who are taking religion to the extreme.

There are many similarities.

Compare xTheLordsServantx to yourself.

Edit: I'm sorry if that seems harsh to you but you've been ing me off with your extreme ignorance of the world around you.You should be shot for being such a fool. So I suppose that I am just as bad as muslim fanatics that cut off heads and treat their women like shit (and a variety of other things)
Do the world a favor and shoot yourself, maybe some of the worlds stupidity wil go with you

[Makod]

Heh, maybe I should since I corrupt the minds of the youths.

People who go out and bomb large cities for the chance of killing a few terrorists may also be considered fanatics.

Oh, and about treating woman like shit is not from Islam, it actually orriginated in Turkey, and the Muslims that conquered Turkey took up some of their customs.

PLEASE do research before openly bashing everything and everyone that does not coincide with your beliefs.

[Phantom]

Heh, maybe I should since I corrupt the minds of the youths.

People who go out and large cities for the chance of a few ists may also be considered fanatics.lol your liberal ignorance amazes me. Its like you wear googles that filter out common sense and logic and show you false facts and misinfromation.
EDIT* you know nothing of islam they do treat their women like that, fun fact they can legaly rape a women for exposing their nose, the ones that do that are accualy considered heros. Some f*cktard muslim tried to pull that in austraila and got arrested for raping a 15 year old.

[Makod]

lol your liberal ignorance amazes me. Its like you wear googles that filter out common sense and logic and show you false facts and misinfromation.
Some fun facts.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/apr2003/clus-a05.shtml

Also: Please, you know nothing of anything, do research before posting. You could also try listening in history class before making assumptions based on assumptions.

[Phantom]

Read the whole post next time.

Also: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/apr2003/clus-a05.shtmlLOLROFLLMFAO!!!
o man you give me a good laugh somtimes makod.
I garrentee you that those "grusome" pictures you see on tv are from an insurgent blowing himself up. Less that 13% of civilians are killed by us, the rest are all the insurgents. O way you can tell is the type of wound it is, we dont use nails as shrapnel.
I pity you Makod, you are so blind.

[Makod]

LOLROFLLMFAO!!!
o man you give me a good laugh somtimes makod.
I garrentee you that those "grusome" pictures you see on tv are from an insurgent blowing himself up. Less that 13% of civilians are killed by us, the rest are all the insurgents. O way you can tell is the type of wound it is, we dont use nails as shrapnel.

Did you even click the link?

[Phantom]

Yes I did and I can honestly say that has got to be the most full of sh*t artical I have ever seen, its not even funny.
O yeah and I do know history, fun fact ancient times muslims went on genocidal killing in the name of Allah trying to convert or kill entire civilizations! Just like they do now!

[Makod]

Right, I'm sorry let me find a quote from George Bush, the only person you believe, and post it here.

Edit: here, http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0551,news,71029,2.html

[Phantom]

Right, I'm sorry let me find a quote from George Bush, the only person you believe, and post it here.

Edit: here, http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0551,news,71029,2.htmlAccualy I dont like bush. Way to show you know nothing about me.

I realy wish I could find that vid of all you libs saying how saddam had wmds and should be taken out. You people are such hipocrits its not even funny.
Yeah its faulty intelligence you stupied f*ck, even you lib tards said saddam had wmds.

[Hyper]

I am just wondering why is Phantom still allowed to post on these forums? If he vulgarly attacks everyone who doesnt agree with hes views.

Yes Phantom that also means your a fanatic

[Makod]

Accualy I dont like bush. Way to show you know nothing about me.

"Bush is smart."
"Why?" Uh maybe because after he started fighting terrorists on their own ground we have had 0 terrorist attacks in 5 years compared to clinton who had the policy of just ignoring terrorist he had 8 MAJOR terrorist attacks in 9 years. This just goes to show you that they arent just pissed at us they HATE us and want to kill us, their little koran tells them too, how does it feel to know there is people out there that would kill you without remorse. Dont make me get out the beheading videos.

Way to show you know nothing about yourself.

Also, this is getting off topic lets go back to religion.

[Phantom]

Way to show you know nothing about yourself.

Also, this is getting off topic lets go back to religion.And where did I say I liked him?

[TheWizard]

Your options are veeeery limited.. no judaism, no islam no sikhism, buddhism and hinduism together?
Could have made it a bit more open..
I'm agnostic.

No witchcraft. :)

[Phantom]

I am just wondering why is Phantom still allowed to post on these forums? If he vulgarly attacks everyone who doesnt agree with hes views.

Yes Phantom that also means your a fanaticBecause I back up my arguments with facts.

[R_master]

Haha... the irony.
Lawl, thats how you spell the word, tool. also good job at turning my words into nonsense

[Makod]

i thought this forum was called Ramblings of the Wise, not dyslexic bigot fest 06.

im dissapointed :/
You were saying that all of us can't word sentences correctly but when I look at your post I find many errors. If it weren't for you attacking us unprovoked I would have ignored it. You may have spelt dyslexic correctly but look at this,

"i (didn't capitalize the beginning of the sentence) thought this forum was called Ramblings of the Wise, not dyslexic bigot fest 06.

im (needs an appostrophe and a capitalized I) dissapointed (misspelled disapointed) :/ (you didn't punctuate)"

Good job!
Lawl, thats how you spell the word, tool. also good job at turning my words into nonsense

Yeah, I know, I'm such a tool, jeeze.

[Phantom]

You were saying that all of us can't word sentences correctly but when I look at your post I find many errors. If it weren't for you attacking us unprovoked I would have ignored it. You may have spelt dyslexic correctly but look at this,

"i (didn't capitalize the beginning of the sentence) thought this forum was called Ramblings of the Wise, not dyslexic bigot fest 06.

im (needs an appostrophe and a capitalized I) dissapointed (misspelled disapointed) :/ (you didn't punctuate)"

Good job!


Yeah, I know, I'm such a tool, jeeze.Good job, educating this idiot.

[Rogue 4]

Hmmmmm, the guy that posted in here before me got banned and it seems to have quieted the thread, which is fine, because you all have a great deal of reading ahead. Unless you think my post isn't much, in which case, you don't have a great deal of reading ahead of you. But there is something to read.

Here we go, I'm Christian, flat-out. Now, I could open up on everyone with the standard "God is real, and without him there is nothing," speech, but, I'm a scientist, you see. And one of a different flavor. I'm going to explain to you my belief in ways that anyone can understand. And, being that my area of expertise is theoretical physics, and I'm willing to say there's few in here that could contest my knowledge in that area, I'll use science to appeal to anyone and everyone. That's right. God. And science.

Let's start off by looking at things from a logical point of view. All things aside, all things being equal, what happens if I die and there's no God? Well, it won't matter much to me or you, will it? Once again, all things aside, all things being equal, what if God is real, and you're wrong? Your end becomes much worse, and mine becomes much better. Let's make it mathematical, for even simpler terms, to get the TOTAL MOST LOGICAL CHOICE then, shall we?
Atheists are right:
Them=0
Me=0 (we're both dead, all is equal)
I'm right:
Me= + (any number greater than zero)
Them= - (any number less than zero)
(I say any number, because we only need to know if there's a positive or negative value to assess this situation)
So, if we take that "any number", for simplicity sake, to be 1, then, with both cases assessed:
Me=0+1=1
Them=0-1
So, you see, the math favors me, but this was an EXTREMELY SIMPLE argument, and probably wouldn't take much to argue away. I'll get to the more complex stuff in a minute, but basically, atheists have much more at stake than I do, as I never "lose" anything. We all either die, making us all equal, or the atheists are wrong, and they lose everything. Now, based on LOGIC, which would be a logical choice?

Now, although this sounds impossible, something can come from nothing. Even something such as our universe. For those that don't believe me, I'd be happy to explain, but not in here, as it would greatly inflate what will already be a large post. What seems odd, is the way it turned out. First the order of things, but, more much more interestingly, the presence of life at all. I'll take this time to use a quote from another physicist: "Take apart a car engine, down to every last piece. Put all these pieces in a box, shake well for, oh, say 3 million years. If you don't have a working car engine when you open the box, accept that its assembly requires deliberate interaction."
OK, that was kinda paraphrased, but you get the point. And for those who would argue that 3 million years isn't enough, it's a car engine, and nowhere near the complexity of living, organic substances, much less organisms as a whole, so it should take much less time to achieve completion. 3 million years should be more than ample for something on a macroscopic scale, such as a car engine. Yet, on probability alone, I can tell you it shouldn't all come together. Now consider the world we live in. The odds of this occuring from coincidence are unacceptably astronomical. They're there, of course, but their not at all pleasant to look at.

Now, time for a lesson, I need everyone to understand this next part so that they don't make the mistake of assuming I'm making things up. You all are about to learn the Copernician Theorem. Don't worry, it's easy, I promise. Really easy. It's also great at parties. It simply states that you assume you, or more exactly, your point of reference, is not unique. And I don't mean point of reference in the einsteinian sense. You'll see, keep reading. Now, under this assumption, you can say alot of things about what you observe. By assuming you're not viewing an event at a "special" period in time (near it beginning or end), you can actually tell how long something will last, within a margin of error. You can even define the margin of error, which is great. Let's say I want to know how long something will last, with 50% accuracy. I assume that my point of view is not unique, that I'm not seeing it in the first 25% of its existence, nor the last 25%. That means, it has anywhere between 75% (I'm going to use integer values, to keep it simple) and 26% of it's total lifetime to go. So, if something has been around 100 years, I can say with 50% accurracy that it will last more that 25 more years, but less than 400. See, because 25% is a quarter or 100%, you divide or multiply its life up to this point by 4. Now, 50% isn't very good accurracy, so let's do something more practical with it. 95% accurracy. That leaves 2.5% for the beginning and end, or rather, 1/40 on each side of it's total lifetime. So, we can find the likely length of time it will last by multiplying or dividing the lifetime up to this point. If the object has existed 100 years, then it will last more than 2.5 (100/40) years, but less than 4000 (100 X 40) years. I'm using 100 in both cases, because it's really simple and won't be as confusing, but it works for any number at all, I assure you. If you'd like to know how long anything will last, PM me. I can tell you, based on our assumption on the age of the human race (about 200,000 years for our species) that we it will likely exist for more than 5,000 more years, but less than 8,000,000. We won't be around forever, guys. Besides, this theorem aside, our race couldn't survive forever in this universe, anyway. It's not entirely stable. Trillions upon trillions of years from now, protons will decay. Matter no longer will exist. Not in a state beyond subatomic particles, anyway. But all of this isn't my point, back to assuming you're not a unique observer. Now that you know the theorm basics, we'll get into the nitty gritty. Oh, btw, this theorem has NEVER been shown to be wrong within the chosen realm of accuracy. NEVER. I can grab some proof if anyone wants it later, but I'm really getting away from the point.

Now, the actual theorem states that anything that makes you unique is unlikely. I know I'm alive, because I'm, well, me, but to assume that none of you all are a hallucination of my single conscience would make me unique, and that's not likely. There might be others out there hallucinating just like me to rebalance the effect, but this would mean you all are figments of my imagination, and would force a unique (the only) viewpoint on me. See, you might exist within a unique GROUP of observers, but you must be equal among them. If you were all halucinations, it would violate the rule. Don't take this to rule out God, though, as it can't be done. You see, this rule only applies to all things within this universe, which God transcends. One might argue that life could be a dream, and that should invalidate this theory, but your dreams are part of this universe, if only inside your head. God exists beyond this universe, and is not bound by its rules. Otherwise, the creation of the universe becomes unfeasible, much less the unique viewpoint problem. NOW, on to the whole point. Humans exist, but for us to be the only race on the only viable planet would make us unique, and that's not likely. So, other races must exist in theory, but they can't differ from us much in technology, otherwise that would make us (or them) unique, and that's not likely. Now, for us to be the only race that believes in a God would make us unique, and that's not likely. And for this last part, for everyone to have this belief seperately, across massive voids that cannot be transversed, and for it not to be correct, THAT would be unlikely. Cute, huh? You see, one could argue that there's a bandwagon effect of gods and religion going on here on earth, where popularity is a big deal, and ideas can move around, but we didn't broadcast the idea to all space. So, if an alien race shows up here some day speaking of a god, you'd better not offend them. ;)

Of course, the above isn't without holes. I know where the imperfections are, but I'm not about to debunk my own post. You could of course ague differently, as always, and should, because if I were the only one to see the errors in my post, that would make me unique, and that's not likely. See, isn't that great? OK, let's move on, but in short, the universe agrees: God is real.

Now, theoretical physics is getting to a remarkable point. For the first time, physicist are suggesting that in the absence of observation, nothing has truly happened. The physicist saying this are some of the most intelligent people in the world. They say, quite correctly, that if observers were a required part of the universe for it to exist, the physics for such a thing don't exist yet, but that doesn't mean they go beyond us. We could easily just not have the physics to explain everything yet, but without the COMPLETE PICTURE, those atheists who cling to science as their mainstay must understand that we can't explain everything yet, and that it doesn't mean there isn't a supreme being, just that we don't have the science to explain it yet. You see, at any time, and all times, science is a superstition. We assume it to be true now, because it is the best thing we can use to explain the world around us. But it's really a belief, even a religion on it's own. I'm about to give you a hard question. We have PROVEN that in the absence of observation, in an unpolluted vacuum, something may exist in any number if states at the same time. It requires intervetion, either from pollution (something new moving into the unpolluted zone) or observation to collapse into a stable state. Ask me if you need more info on this to believe me, but I assure you I'm not making it up. So, at the beginning, in pure vacuum, in the absence of all things, when all creation is in a perfect uncollapsed state, does that not mean there had to have been an observer for the state to collapse? For the big bang to happen? For the existence of all things? This is not philosophy, this IS physics. We're trying to answer these questions now. Now, we might not be able to explain how things came into being, but either physics will one day have proof of a creator, or we still won't have a means to explain how it happened, or perhaps more importantly, why it happened.

I realize that I've probably started a few headaches, but seeing as how this is sloppily written, I need a few people to attempt to dissect my post so that I may dissect their and make sense of things. It's 3:25 AM, my time, so naturally, this post has become a little incoherent, but nothing I've said is untrue, nothing I've said has been PROVEN to be wrong. If I've done my job well (I won't know until I've had some sleep and read all this again), this will be a very nice post to start off my VT forum career. Like I said, you guys are either gone love me or hate me. Did I mention I'm great at parties? :cool:

Oh, and one last thing. Science cannot prove there is no God, but God certainly leaves room for all sorts of science. Science cannot rule God out, but God would rule science in. Once again, a case of -1 and +1. :D Think about it my friends. God IS real.

[TheWizard]

I think therefore I am. :)

[cmpcmp]

I didn't read the whole big thing yet, but u do argue that being religious isn't bad as when you die you can't loose, but unfortunatley for what you think
-there are 1000's of religions out there
-Many (most?) of which require you to only belive in that religion

so since you can't definitivley prove that w/e is right, ur chances are down to under 1/1000. Plus whos to say that God in question didn't put religion out there as a test? and if u believe in its falsity's you don't go to heaven or where ever?

yours is a very slipery argumnet that tries to make logical sense out of something that requires faith, which almost by definition means that it doesn't make logical sense.

Plus religion doesn't abide by any rules, my religion can say that your religion means u got to hell, and yours can say that same thing about mine, can we both be right?

[Melchi0r]

There's really no knowing what's right or wrong in God's eyes, assuming He's there. That's kind of why there are religions in the first place.

[check it]

christianity and catholosism ar the same thing...im catholic...but I like Buddhism better...and any religion that emphasizes rebirth from actions, I believe in parts of the bible...but not all...I mostly like the Torah too...and the Rig Veda...Hiduism

[*Dissident*]

I hold the steadfast belief that we are all praying and worshiping the same thing, but in different ways. We fight over how another person prays or thinks this God says we should act. I believe this God wants us to be tolerant, loving, forgiving, respecting, generous, and kind to all beings on this earth, from the smallest microbe to most greedy human. The small differences in opinion on how one should act are frivolus and futile, we are all the same, really. I beleive in more of a Taoist and Buddhist Philospohy of life, because it supports universal tolernace and acceptance, and I am also a Unitarian and Christian. Agnostism makes some people angry, and I dont understand why. I choose elements of different faiths because thats what i believe.

[Melchi0r]

Adding on to Phillzy:

I believe that the God that everyone's praying to but disagreeing over the ways to do it and what to believe just wants us to follow a few basic rules, which are:

1. Love God
2. Love each other as Jesus taught
3. Be good to yourself

[*Dissident*]

Adding on to Phillzy:

I believe that the God that everyone's praying to but disagreeing over the ways to do it and what to believe just wants us to follow a few basic rules, which are:

1. Love God
2. Love each other as Jesus taught
3. Be good to yourself

hear hear! indeed, these are the elements of christianity i respect and believe.

[Rogue 4]

I didn't read the whole big thing yet, but u do argue that being religious isn't bad as when you die you can't loose, but unfortunatley for what you think
-there are 1000's of religions out there
-Many (most?) of which require you to only belive in that religion

so since you can't definitivley prove that w/e is right, ur chances are down to under 1/1000. Plus whos to say that God in question didn't put religion out there as a test? and if u believe in its falsity's you don't go to heaven or where ever?

yours is a very slipery argumnet that tries to make logical sense out of something that requires faith, which almost by definition means that it doesn't make logical sense.

Plus religion doesn't abide by any rules, my religion can say that your religion means u got to hell, and yours can say that same thing about mine, can we both be right?

My argument is not as slippery as you say. First off, any religion that believes in reincarnation believes that we all will be reborn, and only endure a hellish purge if we were very bad according to the standards of the earth. I have abided by these standards, so that's one other religion where I cannot go to hell. The Jews do not believe I will go to hell, I have held their commandments dear, and I believe in their God. I have a wican friend, who has explained his religion to me somewhat, saying that only the absolute worst kind of people go to his version of hell, and those that don't believe in his religion just don't go to the highest form of heaven. Islam doesn't have a defined hell, only a heaven, and, to my knowledge, they never state that it's off-limits to anyone. Under most of these, you may go to heaven as well, but then, so may I. And if only for one other religion, my odds are still better than yours. Not to mention, I believe in the Holy Bible, Jesus Christ, and one almighty God. But even to put all that aside, logic is still on my side. And besides, even if only believing in one religion, and only one religion would get you into heaven, then my odds are still better than any person who does not believe in any religion. My argument stands. Oh, and please continue reading my post, as it seems you're the only one that is. And I am in this room for a debate, and to debunk any who would like to attempt defying the existence of God.

[cmpcmp]

There's really no knowing what's right or wrong in God's eyes, assuming He's there. That's kind of why there are religions in the first place.
-U can belive you know, but you can't "know", what you say is true.

my odds are still better than yours.
Whoes to say what each religion is in a statistical chart of sorts? its rediculious. Religion can't fully be reasoned, thats why theres faith. To try and cross religions so that you come up with a better statistical makes no sense.

Believing in a religion because of better better statistical heaven possiblilities isn't even "real" religious faith.

Its like saying that ur going to be a certian religion just becasue they don't belive in sin, and that's what you personly want. Ur reasoning has nothing to do with "faith" or a belief in God.

[Rogue 4]

-U can belive you know, but you can't "know", what you say is true.


Whoes to say what each religion is in a statistical chart of sorts? its rediculious. Religion can't fully be reasoned, thats why theres faith. To try and cross religions so that you come up with a better statistical makes no sense.

Believing in a religion because of better better statistical heaven possiblilities isn't even "real" religious faith.

Its like saying that ur going to be a certian religion just becasue they don't belive in sin, and that's what you personly want. Ur reasoning has nothing to do with "faith" or a belief in God.

I know it doesn't have anything to do with faith or a belief in God. If I brought that in here, you'd be attacking me for it, as well. I SAID I would be giving statistical and hard reasoning for the people that don't consider faith at all. I was attempting to appeal to everyone on a purely scientific basis, something that cannot be fought. Are you really going to attempt to attack religion, claiming that you only believe in facts, only to turn your back to logic when it disagrees with you? I have a disclaimer in my own post stating that I was putting my beliefs aside to give you a purely logical point of view, and you become angry when I don't use my faith to convince you? My reasoning has everything to do with a logical consideration. If there are 10,000 religions, and only one is right, would it not be better to choose one then forego all of them and guarantee damnation? Now, as for my beliefs, I have "real" faith, as you put it. If you, or anyone else would like to ask about redemption through the Lord Jesus Christ, send me a PM. I'd be happy to talk on a one-to-one basis. I do not believe in my God for statistics. I believe what I believe because it is TRUTH. However, empirical evidence cannot be denied, period, and if I have to fight on the home field of an Atheist, I will. They may be suprised by how well I play their field, too.

And once again, you did not denounce my argument, you only attempted to get around it in a flawed way (claiming logic doesn't apply when numbers are involved) and then tried to attack me by claiming I had no faith.

My argument stands.

p.s. Please look back to the original post, you haven't tried any of my other points yet. And attacking this post would be beating a dead horse.

[cmpcmp]

Are you really going to attempt to attack religion, claiming that you only believe in facts?
-I try to only belive in facts(truth), or inferences from thoes facts, and possibly things that are likely.
-I think that religion isn't based souly on facts, thats where faith comes in.

I know it doesn't have anything to do with faith or a belief in God. If I brought that in here, you'd be attacking me for it,
-U did bring it in, as your end result is the belif in a god/religion.
-I try not to attack ppl, and if i did or it seemed like i did i appologize, (I hate flaming)

I was attempting to appeal to everyone on a purely scientific basis
This is possible in religion, up to a point, and once faith is required that point has definitely been crossed, and thats ur end result correct?

only to turn your back to logic when it disagrees with you?
In an argument about something that isn't completely logical, there will be iligical or statments that lack logical support.

-Where did I turn my back on logic?
-It is a very strange thing to try and argue something (religion/God belif) that can't be fully logical or reasoned, and say that the other person didn't use reason at one point.

and you become angry
-I didn't get angry, At least i don't think so, and if i do get angry I generaly don't start petty insults or flames.

If there are 10,000 religions, and only one is right, would it not be better to choose one then forego all of them and guarantee damnation?
-This argument is based on prior assumptions that can't (or haven't) been proven.
-no one knows if only one is right, or if none are right, or if it even matters to God, or even if god exists for that matter. There are way too many IFS in the argument to apeal to any one in reality. theoreticly any arbitrary thing could send you to hell (if there if a hell).
---------------------------------
IMPO, assuming that.. (not fully logical as it deals w/ the unknown)
-there was a god,
-there was a hell,
-ppl could go to hell,
-and that it was because of things that we did on earth,
----then what would send u to the heaven (or similar) would be good deeds.
----YOU DON'T NEED to be religious to do good deeds.
If god expected ppl to pick a religion in hopes to go to heaven, then what would happent to all of the ppl that truthfully loved mankind and god (if there was a god) and did all that they could, but they simply lost and went to hell (or similar) becuase of the random "crap shoot"? This doesn't make sense if God created a heaven for us to go to IMO.

[Rogue 4]

Sorry, I went back and read my post, and it's more of an attack on you. You weren't attacking me, but I was up very late, and had been reading another thread on another forum putting up with 5000 flames, so I read your post anticipating hostility.

Anyway, I'm going to end this by saying a variable (X) is an unknown real number, or even if it cannot be defined, there is a universal truth in saying that this variable is still greater if added to ( (X+1 > X+0) ). It doesn't matter if the variable is an immeasureable number, or even if it infinitely high or low (in which case, it cannot be reduced, anyway, so it's still read as infinity plus one). The number could even be imaginary, but so long as it has a positive value added, it will still become greater than the original value. If we are judged according to works, then most of us might go to heaven. If we are judged by faith, only those of us that have it go to heaven. I have one (1) more instance where I go to heaven. It is a positive, real, measureable number, and is likely a possibility as any other, so it must be equally considered. Therefore, what ever my initial chance is of going to heaven, you can add one more instance to it where I do (X+1). What the original value is, or even my choice of faith, has no bearing on the odds. They are innately better than those of an atheist. Even if God weren't there, it's better to consider the possibility rather than to blatantly disregard it. It's possible for an organ inside you to quantum tunnel out of you, to a place three feet in front of you, or even for your whole body to quantum tunnel to Mars, did you know? The odds are so low that it would take longer than the life of the universe for it to occur, but no less, it's still worth knowing. You need not worry, I don't think, but if you should suddenly find yourself on a barren, rust-colored wasteland with near-no breathable atmosphere after reading this post, remember that you were warned. It can happen. Don't ignore it. Just because it defies a person's common sense doesn't mean it ceases to exist because of their ignorance.

Would you like to pick up any more points to debate from my ORIGINAL post in here? This one's being overused. My math isn't lying to you, what you see is how it is, REGARDLESS of situation. X + 1 will always be greater than just X. X is just the base number of possibilities one has in life, whether they go to heaven, whether they die and nothing happens, whether they are reincarnated. Consider it that I just have one more possibility. And that possibility is going to a higher plane, a heaven. My odds are immediately better than those that would shrug off religion altogether. This is not a jab at what religions are right, I can argue that later, but the fact is, the odds are better for anyone that believes something rather than someone who believes nothing. And reread my little physics and math lessons above if you must. Do not try to debunk just the last paragraph (sorry, people on other forums are dimwits who do this all the time), the reasoning is clearly stated throughout the post. Take it all together and in context, or none at all.

[cmpcmp]

Not necesarily.
-whos to say that x exists?
-whos to say that the "1" exists?

-what if religion is a test, and if u join you fail?
-what if joining a religion iscolates you from more religions than if u were agnostic (lowering you odds)?
-The "1" could be negative in the above case. and "x-1" is always lower than "x"

The point is, neither u or i can prove the variable (or the constant in ur equation) so any equation made with it is basicly rabdom. If i were to rewrite it it would look like....

"x"+"y" must be greater than z to get into heavan
{x,y,and possibly z can all be negative numbers} (adding negatives is subtraction)
{x and or y, y and or z, and x and or z, and x, y and z, may not actualy exist}

not so clear cut hugh?
the end point is....
-u can't prove that theorieticly, what ur saying adds and doesn't subtract, or any of the other stuff. they are ALL unknowns

is x+y greater than x-y? no way of knowing, as it can't be proven. what y is. It could be 1 or -1 or 0 or any number.

That is where ur logic is flawed.

[cmpcmp]

First off, Religion is based on FAITH. Therefore, math and science shouldn't be used to explain the center of a faith, that's what FAITH is all about. You don't need wordly proof to have faith.

Are you all insinuating that faith is backed by science?
Thats what im trying to tell him, but he came back with #'s, so i used #'s in the scenerio more realisticly, which it that it is based on FAITH.

[Rogue 4]

Does anyone listen? I already said I was going to attempt the impossible and use numbers. I said I wasn't going to just use faith. And why do people feel the need to keep parts of their lives completely seperate from one another? No witty retorts, please, honestly, why are you all afraid of the numbers. Why CAN'T they be used? Oh, and you'll see I'm arguing against atheism in my posts. If you wish to be agnostic, I can deal with you later (Need a smile here with a tongue out, but the emote with it doesn't look good enough for me. I'll bug my brother). So, based on this argument, we can leave being agnostic out of your post. And any religion that accpets atheists, as far as I'm aware (and I'm aware of quite a bit), would accpet ANY other religion equally. So, no matter what, based on what I just said, my chance is higher. You don't even have to have that equal to one, but I chose to avoid as many headaches as possible. If you want to, we can argue the math. Would you like limits, imaginary numbers not equal to zero, some abstract constant like 753? Without that agnostic argument, which is NOT atheism, which is what I'm aguing against, my odds > their odds. IT DOES NOT MATTER IF THIS IS A DETERMINED VALUE. I'm not sure how old you are, and it's not my place to pass judgement, as you could be more intelligent than me, but for the record, I'm taking college level calculus right now, and aside from that, I know my basic algebra from middleschool, and I took plane/solid geometry, trig, and calculus in highschool. Not to mention I read PHYSICS (theoretical and space/time) books as a past time. And yes, this is intend to intimidate you. I'm getting tired of this circular logic, or assumption that if value cannot be applied in an integer number, then it can't be explained with math. You do not want to ague math against me. And "it's religion" is no longer an excuse. YOU TELL ME WHY MATH CANNOT APPLY, NOT SIMPLY THAT IT DOESN'T. Read the whole post over, and keep in mind I already debunked your last one about your negative number theory. To say the very least, you won't be able to prove me wrong, so it's in your best interest to pick something else. And yes, I am trying to move you along, but that's because this is getting rather old, and you won't attempt to debate me on any other grounds. Be bold, step out of the box. My original post challenged you in more than one way, isn't it time you tried the same for me? :D

[Rogue 4]

Does anyone listen? I already said I was going to attempt the impossible and use numbers. I said I wasn't going to just use faith. And why do people feel the need to keep parts of their lives completely seperate from one another? No witty retorts, please, honestly, why are you all afraid of the numbers? Why CAN'T they be used? Oh, and you'll see I'm arguing against atheism in my posts. If you wish to be agnostic, I can deal with you later (Need a smile here with a tongue out, but the emote with it doesn't look good enough for me. I'll bug my brother). So, based on this argument, we can leave being agnostic out of your post. And any religion that accpets atheists, as far as I'm aware (and I'm aware of quite a bit), would accpet ANY other religion equally. So, no matter what, based on what I just said, my chance is higher. You don't even have to have that equal to one, but I chose to avoid as many headaches as possible. If you want to, we can argue the math. Would you like limits, imaginary numbers not equal to zero, some abstract constant like 753? Without that agnostic argument, which is NOT atheism, which is what I'm aguing against, my odds > their odds. IT DOES NOT MATTER IF THIS IS A DETERMINED VALUE. I'm not sure how old you are, and it's not my place to pass judgement, as you could be more intelligent than me, but for the record, I'm taking college level calculus right now, and aside from that, I know my basic algebra from middleschool, and I took plane/solid geometry, trig, and calculus in highschool. Not to mention I read PHYSICS (theoretical and space/time) books as a past time. And yes, this is intend to intimidate you. I'm getting tired of this circular logic, or assumption that if value cannot be applied in an integer number, then it can't be explained with math. You do not want to ague math against me. And "it's religion" is no longer an excuse. YOU TELL ME WHY MATH CANNOT APPLY, NOT SIMPLY THAT IT DOESN'T. Read the whole post over, and keep in mind I already debunked your last one about your negative number theory. To say the very least, you won't be able to prove me wrong, so it's in your best interest to pick something else. And yes, I am trying to move you along, but that's because this is getting rather old, and you won't attempt to debate me on any other grounds. Be bold, step out of the box. My original post challenged you (and everyone else) in more than one way, isn't it time you tried the same for me? :D

[cmpcmp]

why are you all afraid of the numbers. Why CAN'T they be used?
It isn't possible to apply numbers to it
-im not afraid of numbers

my odds > their odds. IT DOES NOT MATTER IF THIS IS A DETERMINED VALUE.
Yes it does, adding a negative number makes the origional smaller.

keep in mind I already debunked your last one about your negative number theory.
You did no such thing, this is a theorretical argument about God.... which can't be proven.

I'm taking college level calculus right now
What level math u or i take is irelivent as long as we both understand what is being talked about, which isn't calculus.

-what if religion is a test, and if u join you fail?
-what if joining a religion iscolates you from more religions than if u were agnostic (lowering you odds)?
-So ur saying theses couldn't possibley be possible.

YOU TELL ME WHY MATH CANNOT APPLY, NOT SIMPLY THAT IT DOESN'T
Math can't truely apply becuase it is a theoretical situation, with many stipulations, and everything is unknown.

and you won't attempt to debate me on any other grounds.
You specificly asked that "religion" not be brought in, just numbers, which desn't make sense.

Not to mention I read PHYSICS (theoretical and space/time)

again irelivent, your just trying to gloat to no avail.

[cmpcmp]

I agree it can't be proven, and niether can u prove better odds.

that says 'you shall prove your faith by cosigns"?
I dono, he thinks he can sovle greater than/less then equation with all variables that don't correlate in any way. I havent taken calculus but im pretty sure (possitive) that magicaly being able to solve... is "x>y"? isn't taught in there.

ok, Rogue 4, please awnser these simple questions,
-Do we know the value of any of the variables?
-Are there any "givens" about the variables?

[Rogue 4]

OK, I'm too lazy to grab your posts, let's do this sherade again.
NAME ONE RELIGION THAT SAYS YOUR ODDS ARE BETTER AS AN AGNOSTIC. ONE. And I discounted your negative number idea in my last post, which you chose to blatantly ignore. Oh, and I was gloating partially, but my being versed in physics is VERY RELEVANT to the rest of my argument, which you will not go near, evidently. And I cannot prove God's existence with numbers, but I do intend to show anyone who is an adimant disbeliever that there is certainly a possibility of their being wrong, and giving them something to consider. Oh, and my being well versed in mathematics means I may have a better concept of what math actually is, rather than a person with a more limited view who may only understand hard numbers. Some things in math cannot be changed. A positive value, no matter how infinite or infintesimal, added to another value, whether that value is positive, negative, imaginary, or even undescribable, STILL INCREASES. Tell me I'm wrong. Try it, please. I'm getting a little heated by people not understanding, or immediately fighting me WITHOUT EVEN READING THE ENTIRE POST! This isn't a debate, it's me explaining something and someone else coming in with little more to say than "NO, I CHOOSE TO IGNORE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE GROUNDS THEY DON'T AGREE WITH MY OWN." And still, no one will attempt any other part of my original post. Even if you win this ONE point, if it is all you can debunk, I still prevail. If you choose to drag this on further, my next post will be very short, to the point, and something you cannot retaliate to for the sole purpose of shutting you up. I want a debate on what my original thoughts were. Not your thoughts on my thought on your thoughts on my thoughts on your thoughts of my original argument. And by being agnostic, you still increase your odds beyond that of an atheist. WHICH IS WHAT I'VE BEEN ARGUING THE WHOLE BLOODY TIME!!! If you want to dissect this post, you had better tear it apart in context and leave the reasoning intact. Your last one was a poor job, as you leave out the reason I gave you for being wrong, and attempt to attack me on the grounds of your post before that. And NeverLetGo, I'm sorry, but you have no right to refute ANYTHING without seeing everything in context. Read my whole post if you wish to debate with me. I read your whole post.

[Phantom]

Hmmmmm, the guy that posted in here before me got banned and it seems to have quieted the thread, which is fine, because you all have a great deal of reading ahead. Unless you think my post isn't much, in which case, you don't have a great deal of reading ahead of you. But there is something to read.

Here we go, I'm Christian, flat-out. Now, I could open up on everyone with the standard "God is real, and without him there is nothing," speech, but, I'm a scientist, you see. And one of a different flavor. I'm going to explain to you my belief in ways that anyone can understand. And, being that my area of expertise is theoretical physics, and I'm willing to say there's few in here that could contest my knowledge in that area, I'll use science to appeal to anyone and everyone. That's right. God. And science.

Let's start off by looking at things from a logical point of view. All things aside, all things being equal, what happens if I die and there's no God? Well, it won't matter much to me or you, will it? Once again, all things aside, all things being equal, what if God is real, and you're wrong? Your end becomes much worse, and mine becomes much better. Let's make it mathematical, for even simpler terms, to get the TOTAL MOST LOGICAL CHOICE then, shall we?
Atheists are right:
Them=0
Me=0 (we're both dead, all is equal)
I'm right:
Me= + (any number greater than zero)
Them= - (any number less than zero)
(I say any number, because we only need to know if there's a positive or negative value to assess this situation)
So, if we take that "any number", for simplicity sake, to be 1, then, with both cases assessed:
Me=0+1=1
Them=0-1
So, you see, the math favors me, but this was an EXTREMELY SIMPLE argument, and probably wouldn't take much to argue away. I'll get to the more complex stuff in a minute, but basically, atheists have much more at stake than I do, as I never "lose" anything. We all either die, making us all equal, or the atheists are wrong, and they lose everything. Now, based on LOGIC, which would be a logical choice?

Now, although this sounds impossible, something can come from nothing. Even something such as our universe. For those that don't believe me, I'd be happy to explain, but not in here, as it would greatly inflate what will already be a large post. What seems odd, is the way it turned out. First the order of things, but, more much more interestingly, the presence of life at all. I'll take this time to use a quote from another physicist: "Take apart a car engine, down to every last piece. Put all these pieces in a box, shake well for, oh, say 3 million years. If you don't have a working car engine when you open the box, accept that its assembly requires deliberate interaction."
OK, that was kinda paraphrased, but you get the point. And for those who would argue that 3 million years isn't enough, it's a car engine, and nowhere near the complexity of living, organic substances, much less organisms as a whole, so it should take much less time to achieve completion. 3 million years should be more than ample for something on a macroscopic scale, such as a car engine. Yet, on probability alone, I can tell you it shouldn't all come together. Now consider the world we live in. The odds of this occuring from coincidence are unacceptably astronomical. They're there, of course, but their not at all pleasant to look at.

Now, time for a lesson, I need everyone to understand this next part so that they don't make the mistake of assuming I'm making things up. You all are about to learn the Copernician Theorem. Don't worry, it's easy, I promise. Really easy. It's also great at parties. It simply states that you assume you, or more exactly, your point of reference, is not unique. And I don't mean point of reference in the einsteinian sense. You'll see, keep reading. Now, under this assumption, you can say alot of things about what you observe. By assuming you're not viewing an event at a "special" period in time (near it beginning or end), you can actually tell how long something will last, within a margin of error. You can even define the margin of error, which is great. Let's say I want to know how long something will last, with 50% accuracy. I assume that my point of view is not unique, that I'm not seeing it in the first 25% of its existence, nor the last 25%. That means, it has anywhere between 75% (I'm going to use integer values, to keep it simple) and 26% of it's total lifetime to go. So, if something has been around 100 years, I can say with 50% accurracy that it will last more that 25 more years, but less than 400. See, because 25% is a quarter or 100%, you divide or multiply its life up to this point by 4. Now, 50% isn't very good accurracy, so let's do something more practical with it. 95% accurracy. That leaves 2.5% for the beginning and end, or rather, 1/40 on each side of it's total lifetime. So, we can find the likely length of time it will last by multiplying or dividing the lifetime up to this point. If the object has existed 100 years, then it will last more than 2.5 (100/40) years, but less than 4000 (100 X 40) years. I'm using 100 in both cases, because it's really simple and won't be as confusing, but it works for any number at all, I assure you. If you'd like to know how long anything will last, PM me. I can tell you, based on our assumption on the age of the human race (about 200,000 years for our species) that we it will likely exist for more than 5,000 more years, but less than 8,000,000. We won't be around forever, guys. Besides, this theorem aside, our race couldn't survive forever in this universe, anyway. It's not entirely stable. Trillions upon trillions of years from now, protons will decay. Matter no longer will exist. Not in a state beyond subatomic particles, anyway. But all of this isn't my point, back to assuming you're not a unique observer. Now that you know the theorm basics, we'll get into the nitty gritty. Oh, btw, this theorem has NEVER been shown to be wrong within the chosen realm of accuracy. NEVER. I can grab some proof if anyone wants it later, but I'm really getting away from the point.

Now, the actual theorem states that anything that makes you unique is unlikely. I know I'm alive, because I'm, well, me, but to assume that none of you all are a hallucination of my single conscience would make me unique, and that's not likely. There might be others out there hallucinating just like me to rebalance the effect, but this would mean you all are figments of my imagination, and would force a unique (the only) viewpoint on me. See, you might exist within a unique GROUP of observers, but you must be equal among them. If you were all halucinations, it would violate the rule. Don't take this to rule out God, though, as it can't be done. You see, this rule only applies to all things within this universe, which God transcends. One might argue that life could be a dream, and that should invalidate this theory, but your dreams are part of this universe, if only inside your head. God exists beyond this universe, and is not bound by its rules. Otherwise, the creation of the universe becomes unfeasible, much less the unique viewpoint problem. NOW, on to the whole point. Humans exist, but for us to be the only race on the only viable planet would make us unique, and that's not likely. So, other races must exist in theory, but they can't differ from us much in technology, otherwise that would make us (or them) unique, and that's not likely. Now, for us to be the only race that believes in a God would make us unique, and that's not likely. And for this last part, for everyone to have this belief seperately, across massive voids that cannot be transversed, and for it not to be correct, THAT would be unlikely. Cute, huh? You see, one could argue that there's a bandwagon effect of gods and religion going on here on earth, where popularity is a big deal, and ideas can move around, but we didn't broadcast the idea to all space. So, if an alien race shows up here some day speaking of a god, you'd better not offend them. ;)

Of course, the above isn't without holes. I know where the imperfections are, but I'm not about to debunk my own post. You could of course ague differently, as always, and should, because if I were the only one to see the errors in my post, that would make me unique, and that's not likely. See, isn't that great? OK, let's move on, but in short, the universe agrees: God is real.

Now, theoretical physics is getting to a remarkable point. For the first time, physicist are suggesting that in the absence of observation, nothing has truly happened. The physicist saying this are some of the most intelligent people in the world. They say, quite correctly, that if observers were a required part of the universe for it to exist, the physics for such a thing don't exist yet, but that doesn't mean they go beyond us. We could easily just not have the physics to explain everything yet, but without the COMPLETE PICTURE, those atheists who cling to science as their mainstay must understand that we can't explain everything yet, and that it doesn't mean there isn't a supreme being, just that we don't have the science to explain it yet. You see, at any time, and all times, science is a superstition. We assume it to be true now, because it is the best thing we can use to explain the world around us. But it's really a belief, even a religion on it's own. I'm about to give you a hard question. We have PROVEN that in the absence of observation, in an unpolluted vacuum, something may exist in any number if states at the same time. It requires intervetion, either from pollution (something new moving into the unpolluted zone) or observation to collapse into a stable state. Ask me if you need more info on this to believe me, but I assure you I'm not making it up. So, at the beginning, in pure vacuum, in the absence of all things, when all creation is in a perfect uncollapsed state, does that not mean there had to have been an observer for the state to collapse? For the big bang to happen? For the existence of all things? This is not philosophy, this IS physics. We're trying to answer these questions now. Now, we might not be able to explain how things came into being, but either physics will one day have proof of a creator, or we still won't have a means to explain how it happened, or perhaps more importantly, why it happened.

I realize that I've probably started a few headaches, but seeing as how this is sloppily written, I need a few people to attempt to dissect my post so that I may dissect their and make sense of things. It's 3:25 AM, my time, so naturally, this post has become a little incoherent, but nothing I've said is untrue, nothing I've said has been PROVEN to be wrong. If I've done my job well (I won't know until I've had some sleep and read all this again), this will be a very nice post to start off my VT forum career. Like I said, you guys are either gone love me or hate me. Did I mention I'm great at parties? :cool:

Oh, and one last thing. Science cannot prove there is no God, but God certainly leaves room for all sorts of science. Science cannot rule God out, but God would rule science in. Once again, a case of -1 and +1. :D Think about it my friends. God IS real.
I just read your post and I think I can debunk religion with one statment.

Why does't god show himself.
or
Why is there ZERO proof of anything any religion says
Now I am sure you are going to bring out the standard free will argument.:rolleyes:

[cmpcmp]

I have (and had already) read all of your posts word for word.
maybe i got confused some where. You seem to talk about Atheism, and agnositcism. tell me if i have mischaracterized what you said.
-If ur saying that if(assuming that) there is a God, a heavan, and a possiblity to not go to heavan.
-Then ur odds are better as an agnostic, as there is nothing to lose. I agree with this, as u said X+1 is always > X
-(i could have taken what you said wrong, but... tell me if i did)
-Trying to say that being of a certian faith, as opposed to being agnostic, gives you a greater chance, i don't agree with. As it may or may not, we just don't know.
------------------------------------------------------
NAME ONE RELIGION THAT SAYS YOUR ODDS ARE BETTER AS AN AGNOSTIC. ONE.
-First off, religions can say just about w/e they want.
-for my example i will use Christianity. Christians generaly belive that it is better to be a good person than to belive something that is wrong, like; radical islam, various cults, ans such. You would be better off being an agnotic.
-Many religions belive that not bleiving in the particular religion that they practice doesn't guarantee hell, but doing things/believing things that are taught in certian other relgions (radical islam, radical christianity, cults, ect) will.

And I discounted your negative number idea in my last post, which you chose to blatantly ignore.
U can't just go around chosing what to discount on other ppls post when ur reasong isn't accepted, cuz the reasoning doesn't make sense. Please awnser my question form last post

ok, Rogue 4, please awnser these simple questions,
-Do we know the value of any of the variables (or if u chose to say that they aren't variables, any of the numbers)?
-Are there any "givens" about the variables (or if u chose to say that they aren't variables, any of the numbers)?

but I do intend to show anyone who is an adimant disbeliever that there is certainly a possibility of their being wrong, and giving them something to consider.
-I accept that there is a possibilty of being wrong (im agnostic).
-all that im saying is that What god (if it/he/she exists) decided to let ppl get into heaven can't have a number put on to it.

(i thought i knew what you meant, but maybe i didn't, please tell me if i didn't)

[Rogue 4]

First off, a Biblical Christian sees there only being one way into heaven. We don't look at their religion, if it isn't Christianity, it's all the same. That said, we hate no one, and only dislike the actions of people, not the people themselves. Hate the sin, love the sinner. But that's your Biblical Christian. There are plenty of people that don't hold to this, but that's their doing, not that of the faith. You don't look any better to a Biblical Christian than an Atheist. And, unfortunately, even though you claim this, you'll have a hard time finding any other religion that flat-out says Christians go to hell. If you can find one, tell me, and I'll rethink my logic. If you can't, Christianity says all other religions go to hell. Now, perhaps I should have reworded my logic, but consider just the two above options. Which choice seems better to you to avoid damnation?

Next, under the above assumption, for simplicity sake, let's look at your number problem (AGAIN). It doesn't matter what your default chance is for this concept. Not in the least, so even if it is imaginary, real, or is a function in and of itself, it does not matter. If my chance is -8000 by default, -8000 + any positive value (whether it can be measured or not) will be more than -8000. It doesn't matter even if it was -8000, ANY NUMBER, OR VARIABLE WILL WORK. Can we agree on that? Now, once again, under the assumption of only Christians and Non-Christians (UNTIL YOU CAN NAME ME ONE RELIGION THAT FLAT OUT SAYS CHRISTIANS GO TO HELL, OR THAT ANY NON-BELIEVER FLAT OUT GOES TO HELL), we find that ones odds are better if they are Christian, because a Christian does not go to hell in their religon or anyone elses. So, to increase one's odds by being Christian (AND IT WOULD BE A POSITIVE INCREASE, NO?) would be X (X get's to be our anything, it doesn't matter what it is) + Y (Y is anything positive. Anything at all). And X + Y, where Y cannot be negative, will always be greater than just X. And even if you find a religion that says all non-believers are cast into a hell of sorts, I can still rework this whole thing with ease to show just trying to pick the right one is better than not picking one at all. That is, your odds are better. Does this make it clear to you? You cannot win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket.

Finally, I haven't put a hard number on anything. I cannot guarantee we go to heaven based off math. I cannot tell you who would go to heaven with math. However, I can tell you where your odds are better, as there's no hard numbers involved. I'll give another analogy. I cannot guarantee which planets will get hit by the most asteroids, but I can tell you that the odds are better that the larger planets get hit. I cannot say how many asteroids, the size of them, or the definite size of the planet. But, I can tell you a bigger planet is more likely to be hit. If you don't understand this last part, as I'm leaving it most unexplained, I'd be happy to clear up any confusion, but the two above paragraphs should be understood, period. To say anything contrary would be nothing more than fighting for the sake of a fight, unless there is some HUGE detail I haven't considered. But I doubt that. Please, let's move on unless it's about my last point. I'll help you understand that if you don't get it, because I haven't gone into much detail on it. Everything else is gone. Let it go.

[cmpcmp]

Il conceed to you on the point that
assuming;
-there is a God
-there is a heaven and a hell (or similar of either)
-what we do here decides where we will eventualy go
-there is a religion that is right
-and the only way to get into heaven is to belive in that religion.

In the above case it would be beneficial to belive in atleast one faith.
--------------------------------------------
UNTIL YOU CAN NAME ME ONE RELIGION THAT FLAT OUT SAYS CHRISTIANS GO TO HELL, OR THAT ANY NON-BELIEVER FLAT OUT GOES TO HELL
Radical islam belives that infidels go to well, Perhaps they don't go to "hell" but they don't go to heaven, which i think was the overall point.(for the second part only) radical (or literalist or w/e) christianity.
------------------------------------------------------------
U can say all u want about everything else, but in ur argument, it assumes that (which i can't prove otherwise) that there is a possibility of only one religion being "right", therefore making the others wrong. So the part that doesn't make sense to me is the trying to use a certian religion cuz there could be an infinite number of them, plus they cahnge within them selves.

Lets say that there are 10 religion in the world, (i know that there are more, but this is just for the sake of easy numbers)

if they all say that i will go to heaven if, and only if i beive in one of them, then would it be beneficial for my chances to beleive in one of them???

Lets say the next day 100 religion are created, they are more popular than the first ten, and they say that you will only go to heaven if, and only if u belive in one of them. WOuld it be better to belive in one of them instead of the first 10?
--------------------------------------------------
Im not arguing that ur possibilty isn't possible, im saying that it isn't the only possibility, and that we don't even know what all the possibilities are, they could almost be anything.

DO you dissagree?

[*Dissident*]

religion isnt about odds, because religions function differently from one another. Religion A says reincarnation for everyone, religion B says you have to worship this god or go to hell, Religion C says all go to heaven, Religion D says all go to hell, etc. Playing the numbers game cant work, because of 2 reasons
1) Religion is Faith based, not probability based
2)Religious diversity

So lets say i "chose" 4 religions...Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Buddhism. 2 say that if i worship the other 3, i go to hell. the other two say there isnt even a hell at all.

[Hyper]

Rogue.. Yes your a very smart person. But God and Religion cant be discussed by maths.. There are no odds. If you simply say ,, I belive in god because the odds are better! '' then you wont go to heaven because you dont realy belive.. Your just ,,playing'' the game for yourself.

[Phantom]

Rogue.. Yes your a very smart person. But God and Religion cant be discussed by maths.. There are no odds. If you simply say ,, I belive in god because the odds are better! '' then you wont go to heaven because you dont realy belive.. Your just ,,playing'' the game for yourself.QFT. Hyper where do you realy live, I can tell you dont live in hell:rolleyes:

[cmpcmp]

Rogue 4, u can make anystatement u want about ur hypothetical situation but please keep in mind that
-ur hypothetical situation isn't the only situation, and there is no way to prove the percent chance, or greater thans of it being "the Situation" please tell me if u disagree.

[Rogue 4]

OK, does anyone else here understand the concept of a debate? The goal is to try to persuade another person to a point of view. Technically, NO ARGUMENT CAN BE MADE IN HERE AT ALL, AND THERE IS NO POINT TO HAVING THIS THREAD IF WE ALL ADMIT WE CAN PROVE NOTHING. Anyone else see that? A lack of purpose for this thread's existence if we cannot debate why our religion makes more sense. I chose to use a little math, does that make me anymore wrong than any of you for using words? Does anyone think that words honestly have anymore power to describe a power beyond our comprehension than math does? You see, if we all surrender our points of view (which is what all of you are doing, btw, just to negate me) we remove the point of this thread. It won't be a debate, it will be a "HI! I'm <pick a religion>! So, uhhhhh . . . HI!"

If this was honestly meant to be a poll, it should be moved out of this forum, as it serves no purpose in here. I request its removal if this is the case.
NOW, if this is meant to be a debate, let's debate and not surrender all our points of view to "Well, we can't know," or "You can't say that for sure."

Afterall, you think there is a real truth to whether abortion is right or wrong? NO, it's a point of view. That goes for any question of ethics or religions or an unknown value. It hurts to see all of you give up to call neutrallity. We all know there cannot be a defined right or wrong view. Hell, even if I could 100% prove the existence of God with mathemetics, people would still reject the math or say that math was a god. So how about you all battle your viewpoints.

And while we're on the ethics topic, it is nothing moree than your opinions that I shouldn't be able to argue with math as much as words. No where in the Bible, or any other religion I'm aware of does it say "math may not be used, numbers have no meaning." You all just haven't seen math used in an argument like this before, so you call a similar case to "seperation of church and state," but then, math is part of this universe, same as our language, feelings and beliefs. It's all equal, and to say it's not would be a lie."

[Phantom]

I find it funny for you being as smart as you are to be a christian and believe some guy died and rose for peoples sins, and there is a magic god watching you in the sky, but never shows himself for unknown reasons.

[cmpcmp]

NO ARGUMENT CAN BE MADE IN HERE AT ALL, AND THERE IS NO POINT TO HAVING THIS THREAD IF WE ALL ADMIT WE CAN PROVE NOTHING...
Does anyone think that words honestly have anymore power to describe a power beyond our comprehension than math does? You see, if we all surrender our points of view (which is what all of you are doing, btw, just to negate me)...

Using numbers in any debate isn't "not possible" or "wrong" or some thing like that, all that i ask of u is to awnser one question before u try to prove w/e ur doing with math,
(do you agreet that.....)
-U CAN prove that something is more likely than something else IF u know the situation
-What ever the situation is with a God/without a god or w/e we don't know.
-SO if u want to argue that if blank blank and blank then blank go right ahead, i even encourage u to do it, BUT don't don't deny that it requires the "blanks" previously to be true.

right???

[Makod]

-U CAN prove that something is more likely than something else IF u know the situation
-SO if u want to argue that if blank blank and blank then blank go right ahead, i even encourage u to do it, BUT don't don't deny that it requires the "blanks" previously to be true.

right???

Exactly.

On a side note: The Flying Spaghetti Monster (http://www.venganza.org/) is the only true God.

[cmpcmp]

A flying spagetti mosnter, thats rediculious,
-spagetti can't fly
-it isn't alive
-meat balls can't be used as eyes
-and it would rot after a while

But on the other hand
-God is three in one (its like buy one get 2 free!!!)
-God has a son(?)
-the bible was writen by humans, but inspired by God, but changed and translated, and sometimes true, but maybe not, some quotes have meaning, sometimes not, The old testament was replaced by the new, but it really wan't, and the stories and some of the laws are real, but some aren't, Noah never put the animals on his ship (thats impossible!!) but jesus rose form the dead, cured blind ppl and brogh a dude back from the dead, some one is turned into a pillar of salt (but it isn't true cuz its not reasonalble?) BUT OF COURSE THE BIBLE IS TRUE!!
-God sees all and has a plan yet we have freewill,
-Every sunday its good to eat and drink some jesus,
-God wants us to belive in him, but can't show himself to every one, just some dead ppl 2k years ago, and some mexicans a couple hundered years ago (guatilupe), and a few others.

You know what, il take the spagetti God
ONE ORDER OF SPAGETTI PLEASE

[Makod]

A flying spagetti mosnter, thats rediculious,
-spagetti can't fly
-it isn't alive
-meat balls can't be used as eyes
-and it would rot after a while

Did you even click the link and read the site?


You know what, il take the spagetti God
ONE ORDER OF SPAGETTI PLEASE

Yeah, it's much tastier than God too. Also, in pastafarian heaven there are lots of pirates, strippers, and beer; so that's another plus.

[Rogue 4]

OK, I'll be point blank, my proving anything doesn't matter in this case. If there is a heaven, and it requires a faith of sorts to get in, then it would be better to attempt picking the right one, no?

If there is a heaven and we all go to it, great, right?

If there is no heaven, we all share an equal demise, correct?

Now, only one choice goes well with ANY of these three situations, and there can't be any more than these three! So, even if you risk picking the wrong religion (which is a subset statistic that doesn't need to be known right for this line of thought), it still makes the most sense to TRY to provide for all the above situations, no? So picking a religion makes the most sense, because it at least has a chance at covering all the bases. Now, as before, if the other two are right, great, it won't hurt me. If I pick the wrong religion, well, at least I tried. An Atheist can only meet TWO of those above situations. So, you have to ask yourself, are you feelin' lucky? You see, my poinst is, it makes the most sense to try to cover as many possibilities as possible, right? Now, YOU TELL ME if anything I've said above is wrong.

[cmpcmp]

Now, only one choice goes well with ANY of these three situations, and there can't be any more than these three!
On the contrary my friend.

WHAT IF.....
-there is a God and god put religion on earth to test ppl, if u pick religion, then u go to hell?
-What if only ppl that admit that they don't know God, because he hasn't shown himslef to us go to heaven? (which intersetingly enought would explain the whole why he never shows himslef thing)
-what if only ppl that have gay sex go to heaven?
-Only ppl that listem exclusively to rock music?

the point is that there are an infinite number of circumstances that are possible, and which is more likely, no one knows, for every positive in this situation there is a negative;
EXAMPLE: only chrisitans go to heaven, only non christians go to heaven.
Only ppl who listen to rap go toi heaven, only ppl who never listen to rap go to heaven.

NO ONE "knows" (logicly) what circumstance we are living in, so no real conclusions can be made.

Lastly, whos to say that only christians go to heaven is any more likely possible any other situation??? the point is no one knows.

The first "blanks" could be ANYTHING, no matter how arbitrary they may be, cuz if there is a god why would he have to be rational (plus whose to say that ur situation is rational?

In closing, there can be WAY more than 3 total possiblities

[Makod]

OK, I'll be point blank, my proving anything doesn't matter in this case. If there is a heaven, and it requires a faith of sorts to get in, then it would be better to attempt picking the right one, no?

If there is a heaven and we all go to it, great, right?

If there is no heaven, we all share an equal demise, correct?

Now, only one choice goes well with ANY of these three situations, and there can't be any more than these three! So, even if you risk picking the wrong religion (which is a subset statistic that doesn't need to be known right for this line of thought), it still makes the most sense to TRY to provide for all the above situations, no? So picking a religion makes the most sense, because it at least has a chance at covering all the bases. Now, as before, if the other two are right, great, it won't hurt me. If I pick the wrong religion, well, at least I tried. An Atheist can only meet TWO of those above situations. So, you have to ask yourself, are you feelin' lucky? You see, my poinst is, it makes the most sense to try to cover as many possibilities as possible, right? Now, YOU TELL ME if anything I've said above is wrong.

Well let us see here. If we do choose a religion, we will probably be wrong in the one we choose as there are an infinite amount of religions. Therefore your choice is most likely the wrong one and you have suceeded in wasting a good portion of your life. ;)

When I say infinite amount it means that you can make up the most random crap, for example Flying Spaghetti Monster, scientology, etc., call it a religion and bang!: You have an idea that can neither be proven or disproven.

[Rogue 4]

On the contrary my friend.

WHAT IF.....
-there is a God and god put religion on earth to test ppl, if u pick religion, then u go to hell?
-What if only ppl that admit that they don't know God, because he hasn't shown himslef to us go to heaven? (which intersetingly enought would explain the whole why he never shows himslef thing)
-what if only ppl that have gay sex go to heaven?
-Only ppl that listem exclusively to rock music?

the point is that there are an infinite number of circumstances that are possible, and which is more likely, no one knows, for every positive in this situation there is a negative;
EXAMPLE: only chrisitans go to heaven, only non christians go to heaven.
Only ppl who listen to rap go toi heaven, only ppl who never listen to rap go to heaven.

NO ONE "knows" (logicly) what circumstance we are living in, so no real conclusions can be made.

Lastly, whos to say that only christians go to heaven is any more likely possible any other situation??? the point is no one knows.

The first "blanks" could be ANYTHING, no matter how arbitrary they may be, cuz if there is a god why would he have to be rational (plus whose to say that ur situation is rational?

In closing, there can be WAY more than 3 total possiblities

Nice, only arguing one part of my post, but that's standard for you. Anyway, when I said religion, I WAS NOT MERELY REFERING TO CHRISTIANITY. You seem to assume I was, but whether you did or not, I do not care. Now, if there is a religion where you have to be gay to go to heaven, it's still a religion all the same. You'd be better off trying to pick one, even still. Now, if all religion is a sin, but there is still a God to call that, then agnosticism is a religion all the same that says that only people that believe in it go to heaven. Under your argument, you make it a religion. It, in effect, becomes like Christianity. There ARE only two sides, those who do not believe in religion PERIOD, or those that believe in something, or that it might be there and we can't be sure. Anyway it goes, Agnosticism is a religion in and of itself, and it never states there is no God or heaven, only that we cannot know. Wiki it, if you like. Unless you're a subset who flat out says that everyone's wrong, but given that there can only either be a god or not be a god, that would be odd. Have fun. Oh, and if it based on chance, some random action, then my odds are still only as good as anyone elses. Since none of us know the right random action, and all.

[cmpcmp]

Nice, only arguing one part of my post but that's standard for you
-If one part is used as reasoning for the rest, and it is false, then it must be argued against, cuz it could make the whole thing wrong.
[Example]
2+2-3+0+0+0+1=X so...
2+2=4 4-3=1 1+0=1 1+0=1 1+0=1 and then 1+1=3 X=3 Im right, and don't be a cmpcmp and only argue about the last step, there are 5 other steps but u only choose one OMG.
[end of example]
Do you see the reasoning behind what i said?
--------------------------------------------------------
when I said religion, I WAS NOT MERELY REFERING TO CHRISTIANITY. You seem to assume I was, but whether you did or not, I do not care.
-If u didn't care then why did u post this?
-I poorly worded that phrase, I should have said that any religion (including christianity)
-MY point is still the same though "the point is no one knows"
[what i actualy said \/ ]
Lastly, whos to say that only christians go to heaven is any more likely possible any other situation??? the point is no one knows.
-----------------------------------
if there is a religion where you have to be gay to go to heaven, it's still a religion all the same. You'd be better off trying to pick one, even still. Now, if all religion is a sin, but there is still a God to call that, then agnosticism is a religion all the same that says that only people that believe in it go to heaven. Under your argument, you make it a religion. It, in effect, becomes like Christianity. There ARE only two sides
-ok fine, there are 2 sides one is athiesm, and one is religion, but can't religions say ANYTHING???

-couldn't god have diecided that only ppl who don't belive in him at all go to heaven? (which ironicly they adamantly belive doesn't exist). Thus making it a religion on its own, but just one in which God wants the ppl to belive that there is no God? (also strange is that this couldn't be a human religion)
-But is it a possiblity none the less, right?.
----------------------------------------------------
Oh, and if it based on chance, some random action, then my odds are still only as good as anyone elses. Since none of us know the right random action, and all.
This was my point all along.

(any one religion but il use the christianity for convienience in the below) (assuming that there is a god) (assuming there is a heaven and all that too)
- Can u say with any measure of truth that being christian is more likely what God made what gets you into heaven than, beliving that there is no God (as a religion with a God ironicly like the example above)
This question is key.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Hyper]

QFT. Hyper where do you realy live, I can tell you dont live in hell:rolleyes:

I live in Estonia.. And if you dont know where it is then.. http://images.google.ee/imgres?imgurl=http://www.countryreports.org/maps/Estonia/en-area.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.countryreports.org/country.aspx%3Fcountryid%3D76%26countryName%3DEstonia&h=300&w=390&sz=18&hl=et&start=11&tbnid=oYcAFBfRRvrzuM:&tbnh=95&tbnw=123&prev=/images%3Fq%3DArea%2Bof%2BEstonia%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Det%26lr%3D

[Phantom]

I live in Estonia.. And if you dont know where it is then.. http://images.google.ee/imgres?imgurl=http://www.countryreports.org/maps/Estonia/en-area.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.countryreports.org/country.aspx%3Fcountryid%3D76%26countryName%3DEstonia&h=300&w=390&sz=18&hl=et&start=11&tbnid=oYcAFBfRRvrzuM:&tbnh=95&tbnw=123&prev=/images%3Fq%3DArea%2Bof%2BEstonia%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Det%26lr%3DI know where estonia is, its in the baltics. Well that explains ALOT. Please do the world a favor and don't talk shit about U.S or anything its doing because quite frankly you probably dont know shit, ESPECIALY 9/11 or what the U.S is like, you know I don't go talking shit about your country calling it facist and whatnot.

[redcar]

I know where estonia is, its in the baltics. Well that explains ALOT. Please do the world a favor and don't talk shit about U.S or anything its doing because quite frankly you probably dont know shit, ESPECIALY 9/11 or what the U.S is like, you know I don't go talking shit about your country calling it facist and whatnot.
Phantom appologise now for that remark. that kind of attitude wont be tolerated.

[Phantom]

Phantom appologise now for that remark. that kind of attitude wont be tolerated.Fine I take back most of it, but not the part about how he dosn't know crap about america. I am sick of people like him bashing a country all the way across the world from him thinking he knows somthing about it.

[redcar]

let me tell you a little something about us people living outside the USA. we actually do know stuff about your country, just because you might not know a lot about ours, we do know about yours. afterall when America sneezes the world catches a cold.

[Phantom]

let me tell you a little something about us people living outside the USA. we actually do know stuff about your country, just because you might not know a lot about ours, we do know about yours. afterall when America sneezes the world catches a cold.I HIGHLY doubt it. You probably see what the news tells you which is half the time full of shit like ALL news is. You realy have to live here. If I wanted I could talk shit about Ireland and estonia by finding stupid little biased articals from newspapers. I wonder why like 90% of the little 9/11 conspiracy theorists, bush haters, liberals, U.S haters are from outside the U.S.

[redcar]

did you know that the British and Irish news are actually prob the most unbiased news you will find?

and i actually do have friends who are from America so i dont just rely on the news.

i find this funny...

wonder why like 90% of the little 9/11 conspiracy theorists, bush haters, liberals, U.S haters are from outside the U.S.

so are u saying that only 10% of America are liberals? mmm i think you have a flaw in your stat.

[cmpcmp]

so are u saying that only 10% of America are liberals? mmm i think you have a flaw in your stat.
Not all iberals are conspiracy theorists. I think that u have a flaw in ur start

[*Dissident*]

So, you living in america makes you 100s of times more knowledgable about a war happening in the middle east and a political system you have never taken part in?

[redcar]

Not all iberals are conspiracy theorists. I think that u have a flaw in ur start
i didnt say that, plus i didnt give a stat.

btw this is just getting out of hand, Phantom you have been warned dont let me see you making comments about other countries like that again.

now back on topic.

[Phantom]

i didnt say that, plus i didnt give a stat.

btw this is just getting out of hand, Phantom you have been warned dont let me see you making comments about other countries like that again.

now back on topic.Ok then I suppose you have to be fair so you can't let other people make bad comments about U.S, or else you would be a hypocrite and a bad moderator. Your reasoning is flawed I think.

[cmpcmp]

Originally Posted by Phantom
wonder why like 90% of the little 9/11 conspiracy theorists, bush haters, liberals, U.S haters are from outside the U.S.
[In respose Redcar said]
so are u saying that only 10% of America are liberals? mmm i think you have a flaw in your stat.
Ok i miss read, i think what he meant to say is that there are only 300 million ppl in the Us, so why is it so far off to say that about 40% of americans are Liberals. if 300 million times .40= 120,000,000 liberals times 10 u get 1.2 billion, are there that many liberals in the world? i don't know do u?

[redcar]

Ok then I suppose you have to be fair so you can't let other people make bad comments about U.S, or else you would be a hypocrite
first of all i just happened to see your post by chance. about people bashing America. its not our job to seek out bad posts, if you have a problem with a post, you can use the report system so the staff are alerted to it.

...and a bad moderator.
i'm not a Moderator, i'm an Administrator.

[Phantom]

first of all i just happened to see your post by chance. about people bashing America. its not our job to seek out bad posts, if you have a problem with a post, you can use the report system so the staff are alerted to it.


i'm not a Moderator, i'm an Administrator.And of course you will do nothing about it. Administrator

[cmpcmp]

Rogue 4, would u say that we have succesfully gone all the way around back to where we had started, with everything being random, and nothing being provable?

[redcar]

And of course you will do nothing about it. Administrator
you have been warned, dont make things worse.

[Hyper]

Fine I take back most of it, but not the part about how he dosn't know crap about america. I am sick of people like him bashing a country all the way across the world from him thinking he knows somthing about it.

Ok see.. I live in an ex soviet union country.. I have read about 7 books about America.. All in a different perspective 2 written for propaganda... 5 written by foreign authors.. I watch all the news I can.. CCN, FOX, Euronews and my own nations news.. There isnt much to know about a country unless you mean a specific area..

[Whisper]

okay how bout this if one country cant be bashed but america can then why dont we just make a new rule where your not allowed to bash any country
I'm Canadian I live VERY close to America, were one of there top allies, I have been to America MANY times, my best friend lives in San Fransisco, I see ALLOT of american news and we own an outfitting company so this season alone i've met over 100 americans from all over the country
America has problems like everyother country on the planet the reason they get allot of media attention is because there the last remaining super power is that there fault? no! For a LOOOOOONG time no country wanted to step up to the plate and try to become one themselves
America has the worlds most advanced millitary on the planet they have used this to try and help basically they've become the worlds police and they have done ALLOT of good hell an American invented the internet that were using right now to communicate from all around the globe.
nobody ever comments on the great things america has done but there quick to slam them for ANY mishap

America is a GREAT country and its taking allot of heat right now for the war in the middle east

Canada has 2,500 troops in one of the hottest areas of afganistan right now and personally i'm fucking proud of that! Canada has commited the third largest force to the NATO run operation, were in charge of Kandahar


Hyper i'm sorry but I agree with phantom that if you live on the oposite end of the planet in an ex soviet country allot of your information could be very biased
I'm not trying to attack you
I'm not trying to be mean but if what you've stated there is the main part of where your knolege about the United States of America comes from then you honestly dont know much
theres nothing wrong with that to be completly honest I never even knew your country existed till just now so I can't say much about your government or its policys like do you even have a democracy? i honestly dont know

Just like I honestly know VERY little about Ireland other then my family fled from there many generations ago


now phantom hasent slammed anybodys country here (least not that i've seen)
so is it really that unfair for him to ask that if hes not allowed to say anything about anybody elses country then they shouldnt be able to attack the United States?

I admit i've had issues with America but I've had the same issues with my own government

John F. Kennedy
Geography has made us neighbors. History has made us friends. Economics has made us partners. And necessity has made us allies. Those whom nature hath so joined together, let no man put asunder. What unites us is far greater than what divides us.

~1961. Address to Canadian Parliament.

In my personal opinion America and Canada are like brothers
I love Canada
and I love America

now if Phantom cant bitch about your countries forign policys or past fuck ups
then dont attack americas for its

WOW we are WAAAAAAY off topic

[Phantom]

okay how bout this if one country cant be bashed but america can then why dont we just make a new rule where your not allowed to bash any country
I'm Canadian I live VERY close to America, were one of there top allies, I have been to America MANY times, my best friend lives in San Fransisco, I see ALLOT of american news and we own an outfitting company so this season alone i've met over 100 americans from all over the country
America has problems like everyother country on the planet the reason they get allot of media attention is because there the last remaining super power is that there fault? no! For a LOOOOOONG time no country wanted to step up to the plate and try to become one themselves
America has the worlds most advanced millitary on the planet they have used this to try and help basically they've become the worlds police and they have done ALLOT of good hell an American invented the internet that were using right now to communicate from all around the globe.
nobody ever comments on the great things america has done but there quick to slam them for ANY mishap

America is a GREAT country and its taking allot of heat right now for the war in the middle east

Canada has 2,500 troops in one of the hottest areas of afganistan right now and personally i'm fucking proud of that! Canada has commited the third largest force to the NATO run operation, were in charge of Kandahar


Hyper i'm sorry but I agree with phantom that if you live on the oposite end of the planet in an ex soviet country allot of your information could be very biased
I'm not trying to attack you
I'm not trying to be mean but if what you've stated there is the main part of where your knolege about the United States of America comes from then you honestly dont know much
theres nothing wrong with that to be completly honest I never even knew your country existed till just now so I can't say much about your government or its policys like do you even have a democracy? i honestly dont know

Just like I honestly know VERY little about Ireland other then my family fled from there many generations ago


now phantom hasent slammed anybodys country here (least not that i've seen)
so is it really that unfair for him to ask that if hes not allowed to say anything about anybody elses country then they shouldnt be able to attack the United States?

I admit i've had issues with America but I've had the same issues with my own government

John F. Kennedy
Geography has made us neighbors. History has made us friends. Economics has made us partners. And necessity has made us allies. Those whom nature hath so joined together, let no man put asunder. What unites us is far greater than what divides us.

~1961. Address to Canadian Parliament.

In my personal opinion America and Canada are like brothers
I love Canada
and I love America

now if Phantom cant bitch about your countries forign policys or past fuck ups
then dont attack americas for its

WOW we are WAAAAAAY off topicQFT. Great argument man. I realy like canada I live in minnesota which is right on the border and have alot of friends in canada. It would probably be my country of choice to move to for all the unexploited wilderness. Canadians are our best allies IMO. I agree that its not fair that we can be bashed without being able to bash other countrys because thats a dumb tactic or somthing. People realy do forget all the great things america has done, I am not even going to list them all, basicly if we were not around germany would have conquered the world..... twice.
JFK was a VERY good leader I think, nobody except mayber reagan and FDR come close to him.
I think I just might make a bash estonia thread now:lol: jk

[*Dissident*]

yes, because we helped defeat nazi germany, we officially rule the world. But, lets just throw ou the fact that without frances support, we would NEVER have defeated the british

[Phantom]

yes, because we helped defeat nazi germany, we officially rule the world. But, lets just throw ou the fact that without frances support, we would NEVER have defeated the britishAnd we saved frances ass TWICE

[cmpcmp]

ok u guys, some good argumens, but...
-WWII is a little bit of a stretch, 60 years ago? don't u think america has changed a lot since then? I don't think that any countries owe us anything for what happened 60 years ago, neither do we owe them anything, well, at least there are still ppl alive from then...
-and then Phillzzy to go back to 1776ish? I mean give me a break. the Revolutionary war, and the French? thats definitley a large stretch.

[*Dissident*]

thats the point im making.

[Whisper]

Topic here............................................................................ ................................................................................ .............................................convo waaay over here

seeing the problem?
good boy
fix it
~~~~~~~~~~

I've never been a fan of the church
when its just there to provide moral support and comfort when you lose someone dear to you i dont have a problem with it but when the Vatican starts telling Africans its against god to use condoms and helps spread AIDS and increase the population of a continent thats all ready starving to death i have a problem with it
when it seeps into our legal system effecting the court of law i have a problem with it
when it effects a countrys votes for there leader or there policy on things such as gay marriage
i have a problem with it
when it effects the scientific advancement of the human race I have a big problem with it

i'm an Athiest
and proud of it

[Hyper]

Yes its way off but I would like to respond to your last post Whisper..

1st I am not happy at all with our government
Our government has taken practicly every policy from the USA if you dont know the USA is wanting to make travel for Estonian citicens into the country
Yes this is where the morning and my knowledge of English gets me so lets say just comfortable.. Easy..

The government here is a 'democracy' ( I dearly apologize if I typoed that word :( ) And the governments purpose is to earn enough money by supporting the companies.. Our Enviorment Minister just resigned because hes department was suspected in 'tradeing' with ( DAMN MY ENGLISH!!! ) Protected land areas?.. And the Minister was even being suspected of taking a 12 million krone bribe. The averege person here makes in a year ( In reality )
About 80 000 - 100 000 krones.. So yeah I could tell you alot more about the presidential elections, parliament elections and so on.. But it would be pointless this government is the same like any other it helps the people to an extent of value ( Elections value )

[cmpcmp]

Topic here.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....convo waaay over here

seeing the problem?
yes. (filler)

[cmpcmp]

(hmm.. did the whole debate about religious odds end in exactly the way every body but rogue said it would?)

[TheWizard]

You guys have hijacked this thread. Now get back on topic please. :)

[xTheLordsServantx]

I do not believe in Christianity. As far as I can remember, I've had my doubts. I find that living life for myself and not for God or Jesus makes the most sense for me. I rely on myself and make choices on what I think is right. When I'm in crisis, I get support through research, friends, experts; anything that's at my fingertips. Not through prayer. I believe that prayer is the least productive thing to do when you need help and it's guarenteed to fail.

I believe those who call themselves Christians but isn't religious is not a Christian. It's very contradicting to say you're Christian but not religious. If saying you're not religious means that you don't pracitce at all or vey minor things, then you're not a Christian. You're basically a shopping cart Christian which means that you pick and choose what things you do., so you really arent Christian at all. You just made your own version (basically what a denomination does).

I believe that the "non-religious Christians " are mostly ones who really don't believe 100% but basically very little but arent daring enough to cut it off completely (wether family reasons, fear of going to hell if it is true). I know because I was like that for awhile. Though now I don't believe in heaven or hell. I dont fear hell because I believe it doesnt exist.

I'm just going to live life how I want to and have little influence as possible. When I die, I die and whatever happens will happen, but I'd rather live life without the restraints of religon.

Im glad you expressed your beliefs, now its time for me to express mine:

You say that when u are in trouble, u look not to God, but to yourself, and therefore succeed. The Bible tells us that although u may succeed in life, while devout christians may suffer, does not disprove God. What it does is it tests your faith. You have put your faith in youself and not God. Its tests us to see how strong our faith is. Maybe your prayer does not work because u are not sincere or because u doubt Him as pray. And i have another question for u, do u actually think that just because u dont believe in something, means its not real? NO, it does not. I also want to let u know that religion does not place restraints, but allows us to live lives free of sin and live our lives the way God wanted us to live our lives. Its not that hard.

Look at it this way:

If hes real, and u repent ur sins and take christ as your savior, u will go to eternal bliss and joy in heaven with God, which is a positive

If hes not real, and u repent anyways, u arent losing any thing, and u also wuld be a better person

So basically, its a win win situation, in which ur not losing anything.

So, I ask all of u reading this, 2 things:
1) Next time u pray, just try to have a bit of faith when u do it. Even if its just a bit
2) If u Accept Jesus as your savior, and repent your sinsto God, u will be losing NOTHING

Please just think about those two things
God Bless all of u, and may you find the strength to overcome any problems and find the truth.

Thank you

[Phantom]

There you are lords servant you haven't been on is a while.
Well I see you are back to making the same excuses as before with the whole test your faith thing.

[*Dissident*]

there is no way to dissprove a religion. they all have the "loop hole clause" that talks about faith and trust in God.

[Phantom]

I believe in human capability as my religion.
Just like the Greeks.

[xTheLordsServantx]

And when you say you hope we find the truth, that better mean that we will find our own truths in our own way, not just your perception of the truth because this should be about sharing and discussing our ideas and beliefs not trying to convert us.

I totally respect ur beliefs, but i was just saying that maybe you should open up ur mind and try to see it through the other prespective (speeling?). Anyways, also when I say truth, I mean your actual personal truth deep-down inside of you. There may be things that tell you there is no God, but u shuldnt believe them until u have experienced it for yourself. I know u think that God cannot be proven or disproven, but people, like myself, have experienced miracles done by God. But dont get heated over this, cus i know im not. Its your own personal journey through hardships and turmoil to find the universal truth.

And for Phantom, what "excuses" are you talking about?

God Bless you. I will pray for you.
xTheLordsServantx

[xTheLordsServantx]

I believe in human capability as my religion.
Just like the Greeks.

Better the Greeks then the Romans...

[DomSoulWraith]

I'm Animistic, and live with my way Christian family. My mother still is Christian, but wont go to church because she doesn't believe in many small rules they have. I dont agree withsome of the rules or laws wichever you prefer Animism has, but I still agree with some of it. I don't believe in Hell. If God is so kind (as stated in the bible), why would he send even the cruelest person to Hell. Why wouldn't he forgive them. I don't believe in violence. It's idiotic and can just as easily, probably easier, be solved in words. I've never been in a physical fight, and hope to keep it that way. If other people fight that's not my business, really. I would never critisize another faith. I don't know who's faith is right. You kind of have to take a guess and if it's wrong..... well I doubt that I'll ever find out, so I don't care. Sometimes I like to think that there's no God or Gods. I start to think that religion is just something to explain what we haven't discovered, or don't like. Who knows. Religion is a tricky subject. It's impossible to really know if your right. Personally I think it's odd that some people have the nerve to even try to disprove somone else's faith. Hope I didn't leave out anything./Edit: Oh, and religious wars. If Hell is existant......... that's where your going. Correct me if I'm wrong Christians, but isn't there a commandment that says thou shall not use violence or something like that? Don't take any of my thoughts personally please, I'd rather not have a debate over it. To Anthony: Then don't live a Christian life. My parents wanted me to stay with a Christian faith, but I said they can't control my faith. My mom didn't care, but my dad was angry.

[-Adam-]

Hmm i think i can call myself a christain but im always arguing and fighting with myself... funny think is i started believing when my brother died which got me through it..
Well sometimes you have to wonder if the bible is just a story written by man or if it was truly from god
With the you dont believe in prayer thing... when i feel like im praying selfishly for myself or for something that would benefit me in some way it doesnt happen like EVER but when i pray for somebody else truly it seems to almost always come true
i know a lot of you guys are going to say its all coincidence or w/e but hey it just seems like theres too many coincidences for there to not be some god somewhere
sorry if this post is messy or somin sorta sleepish atm after some stuff

[xTheLordsServantx]

I'm Animistic, and live with my way Christian family. My mother still is Christian, but wont go to church because she doesn't believe in many small rules they have. I dont agree withsome of the rules or laws wichever you prefer Animism has, but I still agree with some of it. I don't believe in Hell. If God is so kind (as stated in the bible), why would he send even the cruelest person to Hell. Why wouldn't he forgive them. I don't believe in violence. It's idiotic and can just as easily, probably easier, be solved in words. I've never been in a physical fight, and hope to keep it that way. If other people fight that's not my business, really. I would never critisize another faith. I don't know who's faith is right. You kind of have to take a guess and if it's wrong..... well I doubt that I'll ever find out, so I don't care. Sometimes I like to think that there's no God or Gods. I start to think that religion is just something to explain what we haven't discovered, or don't like. Who knows. Religion is a tricky subject. It's impossible to really know if your right. Personally I think it's odd that some people have the nerve to even try to disprove somone else's faith. Hope I didn't leave out anything./Edit: Oh, and religious wars. If Hell is existant......... that's where your going. Correct me if I'm wrong Christians, but isn't there a commandment that says thou shall not use violence or something like that? Don't take any of my thoughts personally please, I'd rather not have a debate over it. To Anthony: Then don't live a Christian life. My parents wanted me to stay with a Christian faith, but I said they can't control my faith. My mom didn't care, but my dad was angry.

Im sorry that you dumped your faith in Christ to become an animist. I will pray for you though. And to answer your question about God, stating: If God is so kind (as stated in the bible), why would he send even the cruelest person to Hell. Why wouldn't he forgive them.

God is extremely forgiving, but we have to ask for forgiveness. He doesnt just give it to us. He teaches us that it is ok to admit you have done something wrong, and that you can get forgiveness and forget about it.

As with all false religion, animism is simply another scheme of Satan, the father of lies. Yet many throughout the world are being deceived by the “adversary, the devil, [who] walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour” (1 Peter 5:8).

Its also unfortunate that you have denied God, although there are miracles and scientific evidences, which prove His existence. But you going to God is a personal journey that you have to make for yourself.

[Melchi0r]

STOP trying to convert people and STOP taking the position that YOU'RE right and everyone else's beliefs are "misfortunate!" You should be permanently banned AGAIN!

[Melchi0r]

STOP trying to convert people and STOP taking the position that YOU'RE right and everyone else's beliefs are "misfortunate!" Omg, you're like Phantom but you attack people over not being Christian instead of not being a liberal.

[*Dissident*]

Everyone is right here. God is not exclusive to human persepction. god is everything. He is me, and he is you. He is God. We are God. God is us. I am you. You are me. This is what i believe the trinity really means. Jesus Is man, Father is God, Spirit is nature/natural spirit...they are different, but the same. I am different than you who is different than god, but we are still the same thing: The Tao. The Way. The great integrity. God.

[*Dissident*]

God is all. All is God.

[Phantom]

Allah Acbar!!!

[Melchi0r]

:what: Wow confusing :confused:

Not really, I found it to make lots of sense.

[DomSoulWraith]

I disagree about MY religion being a form of Satin. I could go on and on about how Christianity is horrible, too. I won't. I respect your choice. You don't have to agree with mine, but please don't quote the bible in responses to me.It's actually pretty close-minded of you for saying that. Have you researched the religion, or are you just being the Catholic churches' pond and trying to make me think like you? I don't appreciate that. My brain didn't rationalize that either if it makes you feel better.

~DSW

[Melchi0r]

I disagree about MY religion being a form of Satin. I could go on and on about how Christianity is horrible, too. I won't. I respect your choice. You don't have to agree with mine, but please don't quote the bible in responses to me.It's actually pretty close-minded of you for saying that. Have you researched the religion, or are you just being the Catholic churches' pond and trying to make me think like you? I don't appreciate that. My brain didn't rationalize that either if it makes you feel better.

~DSW

What is your religion? Wicca? (If it is, whatever, I'm fine with it)

[TheWizard]

STOP trying to convert people and STOP taking the position that YOU'RE right and everyone else's beliefs are "misfortunate!" You should be permanently banned AGAIN!

I agree

BTW I'm atheism.

[xTheLordsServantx]

STOP trying to convert people and STOP taking the position that YOU'RE right and everyone else's beliefs are "misfortunate!" Omg, you're like Phantom but you attack people over not being Christian instead of not being a liberal.

So i should be banned for believing in Christianity and expressing my beliefs just as you do? That sounds fair. I think the reason you get so angry when I show my strong faith is because of this:
People claim to not believe in God because it is “not scientific” or “because there is no proof.” The true reason is that once people admit that there is a God, they also must realize that they are responsible to God and in need of forgiveness from God (Romans 3:23; 6:23).
I believe that you are a bit insecure with your beliefs, so you become defensive (the normal human response) because of your insecurity. On top of that, you view me as a threat to Satan's lies, so you want me banned from this site. I dont understand why I should get banned for only expressing my viewpoint, while you do the exact same, yet do not expect to get banned.

I disagree about MY religion being a form of Satin. I could go on and on about how Christianity is horrible, too. I won't. I respect your choice. You don't have to agree with mine, but please don't quote the bible in responses to me.It's actually pretty close-minded of you for saying that. Have you researched the religion, or are you just being the Catholic churches' pond and trying to make me think like you? I don't appreciate that. My brain didn't rationalize that either if it makes you feel better.

~DSW

Please go on to tell me how Christianity is horrible. Secondly, I have researched almost every religion, and i have even researches agnosticism and atheism! Third, I am not Catholic. I am Methodist.

I agree

BTW I'm atheism.

Ik you agree with him. That is onlyy the lies from the evil one pouring into your ear, telling you to expel the christian. Please tell me why I should be banned. If its for expressing my beliefs, I believe that is what this forum is for. We are debating opposing sides. You athiests have expressed your beliefs (and if u want me to quote them i can), so now its time for me to express mine. And if im gunna get banned, so should Panic, because we are both publically displaying our beliefs. Also, you have always wanted me banned...

For all three of you, I WILL PRAY FOR YOU
(because that is my civil right last time i checked)
God Bless
xTheLordsServantx

[xTheLordsServantx]

I believe he said I should be banned here:

STOP trying to convert people and STOP taking the position that YOU'RE right and everyone else's beliefs are "misfortunate!" You should be permanently banned AGAIN!

Well im not trying to prove anything to these people because they are so closed minded and clouded that all I can do is use the Bible and pray for God to open their hearts and minds. Im gunna do that though.

[xTheLordsServantx]

Oh, sorry I read your quote and you cut that out.

Panic! If you dont like what he has to say then ignore him. No one should be banned because they have a different opinion. Forums are all about sharing opinions.

Josh you should not ban someone because they have a different religion and they are willing to express it. if that's apparantly how it works here I may not stay around here much longer. that's a ridiculous abuse of power.

thank you. i agree with this statement.

[Phantom]

He's not being banned because he has a different opinion.
Its because he keeps trying to save people and preaching ALL the time in every single post!
He's the one that made a thread saying how gays have to turn or face eternal damnation

[Phantom]

I don't agree with or like what everyone says on this site I read your whole post phantom and I agree with all of it 100%. lol I just had to

[Phantom]

lol I was just kidding :P

[Melchi0r]

So i should be banned for believing in Christianity and expressing my beliefs just as you do? That sounds fair. I think the reason you get so angry when I show my strong faith is because of this:
People claim to not believe in God because it is “not scientific” or “because there is no proof.” The true reason is that once people admit that there is a God, they also must realize that they are responsible to God and in need of forgiveness from God (Romans 3:23; 6:23).
I believe that you are a bit insecure with your beliefs, so you become defensive (the normal human response) because of your insecurity. On top of that, you view me as a threat to Satan's lies, so you want me banned from this site. I dont understand why I should get banned for only expressing my viewpoint, while you do the exact same, yet do not expect to get banned.

Oh, dear.

I am fine with my beliefs, and I am not saying you should be banned for expressing your beliefs. I say you should be banned for not being able to accept other people's views on Christianity for FAR TOO LONG. And I never want to hear you telling someone their beliefs are "unfortunate" again.

[Makod]

How is this guy not banned yet? He hasn't shown much respect for anyone and hasn't helped anyone in any way on this site in a long time.

[Whisper]

Bashing religion of any kind weither its christianity or pokemonism is against the rules
i dont care who you are
what your belifs are
you have the right to them
you do not have the right to attack and berate others for theres
its wrong and a direct violation of site rules

you've ALL been warned


on a personal not to the lords bitch
were not insecure
we just find you reeeeaaaallly annoying

[xTheLordsServantx]

Bashing religion of any kind weither its christianity or pokemonism is against the rules
i dont care who you are
what your belifs are
you have the right to them
you do not have the right to attack and berate others for theres
its wrong and a direct violation of site rules

you've ALL been warned


on a personal not to the lords bitch
were not insecure
we just find you reeeeaaaallly annoying

please tell me when i bashed someone's beliefs. I just gave my opinion on them and u said we culd do that. And i think u guys are annoying also

[DomSoulWraith]

I could go on and on about how Christianity is horrible, too.

My bad, and sorry. ( Wanted to get that out of the way.) I agree with Anthony. You can pray for me all you want Lords servant, but I really doubt it will do any good.

[xTheLordsServantx]

u also didnt have to call me a "bitch"
that was unnecessary and rude

God Bless

[TheWizard]

This isn't a rekigous site and no one here needs saving. Bashing gays is not allowed and is subject to banning.

Do you all realize how many gay teens kill themselves every year? Believe me its a lot and bashing them is NOT allowed for that reason.

[Hyper]

Well.. I do not approve gay marriage and consider some things about it very well ok thats my opinion but I never opress or bash some1 for being gay..

[DomSoulWraith]

Were you saying I called you a "bitch", lordservent? I don't use profane language so I really doubt you were talking about me. I totally approve of gay marrige, but this isn't the right forum to talk about it.

[Whisper]

Were you saying I called you a "bitch", lordservent? I don't use profane language so I really doubt you were talking about me. I totally approve of gay marrige, but this isn't the right forum to talk about it.
No
I did

u also didnt have to call me a "bitch"
that was unnecessary and rude

God Bless

I was stating a fact

Bitch
(3) Modern-day servant; A person who performs tasks for another, usually degrading in status.





I fully support someone stating there opinion
weither I agree with it or not
But your not just simply stating an opinion
see theres a diffrence between stating your opinion
and bible thumping
and dude
your a thumper
not to mention threatening
"DO AS I SAY! BELIVE IN MY GOD OR BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY!!!!"

see
in MY opinion
thats threatening someone
trying to scare them into your way of thinking
I don't like that
you threatening thumper

http://www.fromscripttodvd.com/images/Bambi%20Screening%20smaller/thumper%20smaller.jpg

erugh I hate religion (my opinion)

[DomSoulWraith]

That's halarious. I fell off my chair laughing, I swear.

[xTheLordsServantx]

im sorry people kill themselves but its not God's fault.
Jesus is my savior and my Lord God!

[Phantom]

xTheLordsServantx please tell me why your religion no wait your sect of your religion is the right one? Tell me why yours is right and all the others are wrong.

[Melchi0r]

Tonight I purchased a book called "The Irresistible Revolution: Living as an Ordinary Radical" by Shane Claiborne.

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/0310266300.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_V65765812_.jpg

It's about the author's radical faith community called the Simple Way, that he co-founded with a bunch of other young radical Christians.. The Simple Way, which are all young men and women, live in a destitue neighborhood of Philadelphia with the poor and homeless. They're trying to live like Jesus and his earliest converts, which would be pretty radical judging by the way lots of Christians live today: materialistic, independent, seperating government from religion. He points out everything wrong with society, saying "The World Cannot Afford The American Dream." Shane is hilarious, using terms like "Spiritual Masturbation", while being a very wise wise Christian. The Simple Way spreads the good news, yet they are not over-evangelical or sell-outs. I just started it today and it's pretty good so far. I suggest any Christian or anyone looking into the religion should check this book out.

[xTheLordsServantx]

xTheLordsServantx please tell me why your religion no wait your sect of your religion is the right one? Tell me why yours is right and all the others are wrong.

I believe my religion is the guaranteed truth because I have faith. False religions do not place faith in their followers. I have so much faith that I am willing to place my soul on the line and die for God.

[Phantom]

I believe my religion is the guaranteed truth because I have faith. False religions do not place faith in their followers. I have so much faith that I am willing to place my soul on the line and die for God.
LOL and muslims don't! All the other religions of the world don't!!
You are clearly blind. I can't believe you sometimes, seriously.

You STILL can't tell me why your religion is the truth and the thousands of others completely false and will end the people who follow them into hell.
You will NEVER be able to tell me why yours is right and the others are wrong.

[xTheLordsServantx]

LOL and muslims don't! All the other religions of the world don't!!
You are clearly blind. I can't believe you sometimes, seriously.

You STILL can't tell me why your religion is the truth and the thousands of others completely false and will end the people who follow them into hell.
You will NEVER be able to tell me why yours is right and the others are wrong.

The Bible tells us to place our faith in the Lord and through Him no evils can hurt you. I love the Lord God, my Heavenly father, and place my faith in Him.

Also, im not trying to force religion because that is impossible. The Bible tells us that one's relationship with God must be formed between the person and God. Nobody can show God to you. Once you experience His awesomeness, your soul will be on fire.

[Phantom]

The Bible tells us to place our faith in the Lord and through Him no evils can hurt you. I love the Lord God, my Heavenly father, and place my faith in Him.

Also, im not trying to force religion because that is impossible. The Bible tells us that one's relationship with God must be formed between the person and God. Nobody can show God to you. Once you experience His awesomeness, your soul will be on fire.omg. I can't even express in words your......your....... ignorance and arrogance toward other religions.

I don't give a shit what the bible says! The Muslims have the Koran the Jews have the Torah. What about those, they say the same fucking thing! I am sure other religions have other books.

The Koran and Torah both say that you will burn or whatever if you don't believe.

So please try again to answer my question. "what makes your religion right, and ALL the others completely false and wrong"

[redcar]

False religions do not place faith in their followers.

this is where your faith, tends to annoy me. there is no such thing as a false religion because that arguement can be made against yours. i see all religions as being equal, and i would not consider mine above what others believe in.

[DomSoulWraith]

What if I read a book in Aesop's Fables, and in that book it happen to say " all should put though faith in me or innevitable and iminnant eternity in Hell"? Should I just say " Oh, well Aesop seemed smart, although I don't know if he was REALLY holy or ACTUAALLY God's son, but why not say he's right and critisize and slander all the other religions?". Am I not proving my point? You don't quite seem to grasp the information! I mean, come on! I might be wrong, but who says you're right? A book? I believe mosts books. Examples: Dictionaryies, Encyclopedias, Thesarasaus, and most other school realated text books, but a book written...... I don't even know how long ago. Wouldn't you love to find out thoose were stories told by the Greeks when under the Roman Empire's rule (after Emporer Constantine. I think he was the one who converted their religion. I'll Google it or something). I'd laugh so hard I'd die of too much presure on my internal organs. (Which, by the way after thinking about it, made me really never want to laugh. Is that possible? Again I'll google it. lol) Soooo.... I guess there for I must've proven my point, and if somehow I didn't get through to him that he can't say his religions right.......he is as ignorant as........ the president, or the dictator of North Korea ( except without nukes. lol. I hope :confused: .) THE END

~DSW

[Melchi0r]

Do you know what would be interesting? If everything in "The Da Vinci Code" were real.

[xTheLordsServantx]

omg. I can't even express in words your......your....... ignorance and arrogance toward other religions.

I don't give a shit what the bible says! The Muslims have the Koran the Jews have the Torah. What about those, they say the same fucking thing! I am sure other religions have other books.

The Koran and Torah both say that you will burn or whatever if you don't believe.

So please try again to answer my question. "what makes your religion right, and ALL the others completely false and wrong"

Personally, I dont think all other religions are wrong. I just love the Lord, am I am sure I am right because I can feel the Holy Spirit thriving inside of me. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37)

this is where your faith, tends to annoy me. there is no such thing as a false religion because that arguement can be made against yours. i see all religions as being equal, and i would not consider mine above what others believe in.

Im truely sorry that my faith annoys you.

What if I read a book in Aesop's Fables, and in that book it happen to say " all should put though faith in me or innevitable and iminnant eternity in Hell"? Should I just say " Oh, well Aesop seemed smart, although I don't know if he was REALLY holy or ACTUAALLY God's son, but why not say he's right and critisize and slander all the other religions?". Am I not proving my point? You don't quite seem to grasp the information! I mean, come on! I might be wrong, but who says you're right? A book? I believe mosts books. Examples: Dictionaryies, Encyclopedias, Thesarasaus, and most other school realated text books, but a book written...... I don't even know how long ago. Wouldn't you love to find out thoose were stories told by the Greeks when under the Roman Empire's rule (after Emporer Constantine. I think he was the one who converted their religion. I'll Google it or something). I'd laugh so hard I'd die of too much presure on my internal organs. (Which, by the way after thinking about it, made me really never want to laugh. Is that possible? Again I'll google it. lol) Soooo.... I guess there for I must've proven my point, and if somehow I didn't get through to him that he can't say his religions right.......he is as ignorant as........ the president, or the dictator of North Korea ( except without nukes. lol. I hope :confused: .) THE END

~DSW

"Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (John 20:31-32).

Jesus gave us the blessings that we have in life. He is the only way.

[Melchi0r]

I think I'm out of this discussion for a while because I'm tired of arguing about religion. I just want to TALK about religion.

[Phantom]

xTheLordsServantx;120262]Personally, I dont think all other religions are wrong. I just love the Lord, am I am sure I am right because I can feel the Holy Spirit thriving inside of me. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37) Yes you do call all other religions wrong.
You love YOUR lord, you forget about the thousands of others. You don't feel anything inside of you, I am sure you would like to think that, but you don't. Your whole religion is basically tricking yourself to believe something that deep down you know is not true not matter how much you want it to be.

Well I think this argument is over. I can't provide even anything remotely relevant to support your claims that your religion is right.


O yeah and I have another question. How come your lord hasn't blessed you?
I mean when I first became an atheist I was terrified that god would punish me in some way.............. he didn't, because he doesn't' exist. I love my life, I like everything. I have everything I need. Nothing was taken from me.
Now for you. I am sure you have a good life.
But it could probably be better. Why aren't you a millionaire. Why aren't you the one to find a cure for cancer. Why are you just a normal person like everyone else. Surely your god would reward you for such BLIND faith in him.

[kragy]

i have found this 'new' religion thing well not a relgion but it explaines the relgions, its calledd the rael movment and it says that aliens created us and we mistoke them for gods i think that is more realisct than an all powerful god, not tryin to start a big fight

[Melchi0r]

Interesting.

This is my theory on where God (the God I believe in) came from, because how can there be nothing but still be God? Where could he have come from?

I think God came from an alternative universe, or another dimension or something, that began before our universe, so God probably became powerful in that dimension or universe and went into a new universe/dimension of nothing and created His new universe.

[kragy]

that is sort of the one i have found were they come here and crete us but they created us via cloning, then something happend and they put all the live on earth on earth, so its kinda the same

[redcar]

Im truely sorry that my faith annoys you.

i just find it funny that you are so into Christianity, that you cant see the basic fundemental priciples of it, being tolerant and accepting of others. its typical extremist Christianity.

[Melchi0r]

i just find it funny that you are so into Christianity, that you cant see the basic fundemental priciples of it, being tolerant and accepting of others. its typical extremist Christianity.

Right. Jesus didn't come to Earth and say "Follow me, and defend your faith in God and me by being rude!" In essence his best message was "Love one another" and that's really all the advice humankind needs.

[*Dissident*]

actually, Christianity has the basis of being very intolerant of other religions, but very tolerant to those of the same. Just the basic principles.

[Melchi0r]

actually, Christianity has the basis of being very intolerant of other religions, but very tolerant to those of the same. Just the basic principles.

I don't understand what you mean by that...

[*Dissident*]

The teachongs of Christianity basically say be nice to all christians, persecute all non-christians.

[Melchi0r]

No, Christianity doesn't teach that but lots of Christians do that anyways.

[DomSoulWraith]

So, what you're saying is that Christians like others who believe in the Christian faith, but not the others? I really didn't get that. Sorry...lol.

[Melchi0r]

What I meant was, many Christians are intolerant to those who oppose Christianity or follow other religions, like Judaism, Islam, Wicca, etc. or do things that aren't "Christian" like homosexuals. However there is no where in the Bible/Jesus said nothing about being intolerant, judgemental, prejudiced, or anything like that. And those Christians expect everyone to except THEIR faith. Hypocritcal much?

I am a Christian but I swear I am not intolerant about any other belief system or anything. Maybe homosexuality's not really as bad as Leviticus makes it out to be. Quite possibly Christianity's not the only way to get to Heaven. And maybe not all atheists will die atheists.

Jesus didn't teach intolerance. Pretty much he only taught us that we should love on another, and that's a good message for everone and even those who don't believe in God.

[Maverick]

A message for any other atheists here: Do you ever wonder how the world was created?

For me, I really don't think about it much mainly because I really don't think no one has the answer.

[Melchi0r]

Hello!

Here I am to bring up how inconsistent the Bible is.

Did you know there instances of same-sex relationships ...in the Bible??? (http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bmar.htm)

[Hyper]

Hmm well that site views a bit wrong.. Someone who truely belives in God doesn't hate :)

[xTheLordsServantx]

Jesus loves you, as do I. You can go around saying that I am a "bible-thumper" or go around blaspheming against the Holy Spirit and the Holy Father. You can ban me, but the Lord will save you if it is His will. I am only a human, and I cannot alone face Satan who has blinded your eyes and minds by telling you that the Father is false. I am only trying to help you because I know I am right. I usually typically admit when I am wrong, but in this case, please trust me. The Bible teaches love and compassion and I have only shown you guys that. I have never gotten hostile or angry or threatened you or "forced" my religion onto you. That is Satan telling you that because he does not want me to glorify the Lord and succeed in helping those who are without the truth.
“But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust.”
Matthew 5:44-45

That is why I pray for all of you for I know that God is merciful and will forgive you for your sins if you believe that Jesus died for our sins. The Holy Word states:
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
John 3:16
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
John 14:6

People will tell you lies in life, but you have to know how to spot the truth. The Bible tells us that Satan will come across as nice only to draw the God's Holy Children away from God. People who have Satan in their hearts typically do not know it until they experience the Joy and Happiness in Christ. Satan's demons fill our heads with lies and rejoice when we fail and sin. Sin seperates us from God, but Jesus died for that sin so that if we believe in Him, all our sins will be forgiven and we will have eternal life in Heaven. But this is only possible through faith in Jesus Christ:
“But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
Hebrews 11:6

Christ is real and He died for our sins. Satan will tell you that He is false, but I guarantee if you search hard enough, you will find Him.

Thanks for reading,
I love you all.
God Bless

[Phantom]

OOOPS!!

http://www.godisimaginary.com/

Statistics once again prevail.

[Hyper]

Oops read that site.. Realy read it you can see the author(s) are completly 1 sided

And look at our science, yes look at it and think about it.. Then look at the universe and surten energies that we have no knowledge of, energies that we know just exist.. Then look at our numerous theories on the creation of the universe.. Then look at the theory of the universe growing.. And then look at science again

[Phantom]

And why don't you try and go pray...........

[Hyper]

Lol why dont you try and break the bubble of illusion?

[Phantom]

Lol why dont you try and break the bubble of illusion?? what are you talking about.

I swear you always do this.

In almost all debates we have had. Even when you are faced with irrefutable evidence, you ignore all facts that are presented, and continue to say that I or we are, brainwashed, stupid, wrong, or any number of things.
I swear you are immune to logic.

good day

[Whisper]

Behave kids

no fighting