Religion

[Sage]

What about outside debate forums?

Outside is irrelevent, but to answer, no, it would not matter as much if at all in other contexts. We, however, are not in other contexts, and so proof is necessary.

[INFERNO]

Outside is irrelevent, but to answer, no, it would not matter as much if at all in other contexts. We, however, are not in other contexts, and so proof is necessary.

What kind of proof is necessary, given this sort of debate?

Proof is necessary if there is a way to provide objective proof. If not, then although it may not be a logical debate, it'd be illogical and pointless to ask for proof when it's given there's no way to attain the proof in a reliable and valid manner.

[Vutra92]

I'm Christian Orthodox. But I disagree with you about what you said about Islam. Religions are not the problem, people are the problem. People use religion to manipulate others by twisting its message, that's not religion's fault that's the fault of some twisted individuals.

[Dorsum Oppel]

First of all, I'm a pagan. You know why I believe in religion?
Its fun. I acknowledge that religion is a self indulgent thing. I know that there is a possibility that none of my gods exist, and that I am delusional. My view: Who cares?
I believe things because these things make me happy, make my life less mundane, and it's like a hobby. I don't understand why people feel the need to know the truth all the time, when lies can be so much more fun. It might be seen as delusional, but those who pretend that they can prove anything with no proof are delusional. Religious folk and atheist alike, tend to attempt an impose their personal reality unto others, which is quite frankly ridiculous.

Life is too subjective, too undefined to apply laws that are absolute truth, because theres is no such thing as truth. The end. <3

[Apparitions]

I can tell you spent some time on it :lol: . I'm an atheist, however, in the past I was a Christian so I know some information on it. As Death said, my posts don't always reflect this because I have the philosophy that if I'm going to debate someone, I'm either going to use my philosophy versus theirs and relate that to the topic at hand. Alternatively, I'm going to step out of my shoes and adopt their view, use evidence from their side to refute them and so forth.

So basically you just like a nice argument :D? I'm the same... I like how you use 'their' evidence and argue for the other side. I guess it helps when debating with religious people when you know what they will say (it's usually fairly predictable anyway...).

This definition seems to be able to include science as a religion because there is no deity and it can explain how the universe works. The deciding factor on this boils down to one word used in your definition: "beliefs".

Yeah, I see what you mean. It's difficult to put a definition to religion since there are many types of religious beliefs. If I may add this though: Scientists doesn't usually believe, they prove.

In this counter-argument of yours you seem to have decided to pin-point your argument of religion directly onto Christianity. Although it is a common religion, it is not the only religion and so I'll agree that it's probably a harder one to understand but that does not suffice to refute all other religions. According to your definition of religion, no higher being may be required, so this example of Christianity cannot be used as a template for arguing against religions without higher beings (i.e. how can a religion with no higher being have evidence for its existence or truthfulness?).
I chose Christianity as it the religion I understand the most having been Catholic for 12 of my 15 years alive. It is also rather easy to find contradictions in Christianity because of this. If I had chosen Islam for example it would have been wrong of me to do so as I do not know too much about it and would have looked stupid. It is hard to disprove the religions without a Deity because they are usually quite philosophical and you have to understand their beliefs to disprove them. Going to LaVeyan Satanism again I have to find fault in certain ideas of theirs though. It is a sin to be stupid and apparently you should all be very intelligent etc which is just not realistic. I would argue against religions such as this though as their philosophical beliefs tell people how to live their lives which I absolutely hate about religion the most. I will look more into these religions though, just so I can argue against them :cool:.

By "diminished proof" I mean altering the definition or criteria of proof from being evidence that something is 100% (as we cannot know everything in the universe to this very day) to a definition whereby the evidence is constrained by the knowledge gradient in the modern world. I chose an alternative term, "diminished proof" to make this distinction clear so as to not get confused with simply "proof".

Oh I understand now. Of course, we hardly know anything about the universe but I think making wild assumptions with no proof provided like what some Religions do is worse than the Scientific method of making a guess based on some kind of evidence (e.g. the Big Bang theory which is much more believable than the Christian's 'God created the world in 7 days' story). I think if people followed the Scientific stuff instead of the religious stuff then our knowledge of these things would improve as it isn't being held back by fairy tale, outlandish statements told to us by religion (well most of them anyway).

Simply put, it seems your argument is that the concept of god came from a primitive society and culture seeking explanations for natural phenomena. However, in this day and age, alternative, reliable, testable explanations via science can suffice much better. Fair enough to me.
Does that mean you like it? I'm glad if so :). I do not know the scientific reasons why there is no God too much so I use the historical and astrological reasons (the ones in Zeitgeist. I suggest you watch it, it's very interesting.).

Hold on, now you're straying away again. Recall your definition of religion and the example you gave of a religion lacking a higher being. This is an incorrect argument right from the start. You have a point that some religions, such as Christianity does have astrology as part of its origin but as mentioned in my previous argument, pin-pointing your argument onto Christianity does not work. It will only work if all others are the same or very similar but they're not in their origin.
Ah, I made a mistake when writing that. I meant that significant parts of some religions are based on Astrological patterns etc instead. My bad :whoops:.

Correct, I could not disprove it using my 7 senses. However, I can challenge you by saying that you have the burden of proof but if you fail at providing adequate proof, then one can say your belief is incredibly weak or that it is disproved due to insufficient evidence on your part.
How do you know that I don't have proof ;). If I said this then I would try and make up some 'proof', much in the same way as certain religions do.

I think there are various reasons for this and you provided one already. My others revolve around the religion being accepted by a large population for so long that eventually it may be perceived as correct, otherwise it would have been disproven earlier. It's not a strong argument on their part and is faulty but it's one that is commonly used. The others involve socialization and enculturation, meaning one teaches it to their child and the child will believe it for some time. In a small population that is religious to one religion in particular, if someone does not believe in it, then they may have a fear of ostracism. In other words, humans universally across cultures have a desire to be perceived positively, so some may accept the religion just for this purpose or for the self-serving purpose of not being rejected by the society. Yes, it's a shame that a lot of people just accept religion and don't question it. We could possibly have far more independent thinkers in this world than we do know, which would be beneficial to society. I guess some people just get so comfortable with their beliefs that they are scared of questioning them in case they realise that they are possibly wrong. I dislike parents passing their religion on to their kids, which is lazy and quite controlling of them. When I have kids I plan to give them information them on many religions and let them decide for themselves as others, even religious parents, should. I guess the world doesn't work that way though :(. As for being part of a religion just to not be persecuted I think that this is one of the worst things about the world today. In Islam countries for example people are badly persecuted for not worshipping Allah and whatever and some people there aren't brave enough to admit that they think it's a load of bullshit. This even happens in the Western world where there are places where if you don't believe in the Christian God then you are persecuted as much as you are in Islamic countries. This needs to stop.

I never said you cannot try to disprove them, you can do that all you want.

Religion is different because it may be a philosophical belief on life, not one that involves praying. People generally are more receptive then. But, for those that do involve a higher being, it's not always receptive as people may be more inclined to view it as a cult. Also, if there's a large group all believing and practicing, then people may consider it less likely to be due to mental illnesses and more receptive to it because the chances all of them suffer from the same is reduced.
I know you didn't say that, I'm just saying it in response to the people who do believe this (free speech ftw). I generally prefer philosophical religions, they generally use their brains more than religions with God(s). It is a shame when the religions you talk about here are called 'cults' by people, including the biased, prejudiced media who don't make the effort to learn about these religions and try and scare people off them by using the 'cult' label which is viewed negatively. Yet another example of our corrupt media. I see what you mean by more people believing means they might not be delusional (they are though, why are humans different from other animals and plants and have an afterlife to look forward to?). Me calling them delusional does not mean that I view them as mentally ill (religion is quite a hard-to-explain delusion). After all I have many religious friends that are equally if not more, only that I view their beliefs as massively optimistic to say the very least. By the way, I didn't say that you said that I think that religious people are not as intelligent as me, just so you know.
My arguments/views above.

[Apparitions]

First of all, I'm a pagan. You know why I believe in religion?
Its fun. I acknowledge that religion is a self indulgent thing. I know that there is a possibility that none of my gods exist, and that I am delusional. My view: Who cares?
I believe things because these things make me happy, make my life less mundane, and it's like a hobby. I don't understand why people feel the need to know the truth all the time, when lies can be so much more fun. It might be seen as delusional, but those who pretend that they can prove anything with no proof are delusional. Religious folk and atheist alike, tend to attempt an impose their personal reality unto others, which is quite frankly ridiculous.

Life is too subjective, too undefined to apply laws that are absolute truth, because theres is no such thing as truth. The end. <3
Stop generalising atheists. Some are private about their views on religion and some (like me :D) are more vocal. Think of it this way, your friend who has been atheist for a few years but doesn't talk about it is different from Christopher Hitchens for example (Hitchens is an inspiration to me, he is one of the most eloquent speakers I've ever seen, and is very intelligent. Don't EVER debate anything with him, he will make you look like a fool.). I respect your beliefs but religion is fun for you? Explain?!

[Dorsum Oppel]

Yup, religion is fun for me. Praying to a god with burning candles, carrying out a ritual. It makes my heart race, it's a unique feeling. Learning symbols, new myths and legends, history and occult... it's the funnest thing ever for me. Plus, I genuinely love the earth, and praying to it makes me happy. I don't care if its all horse feathers- its fun, and has meaning to me.

I'm not generalizing atheists, I'm generalizing the collective mindset of human beings. "Religious folk and atheist alike,"
X3

[Apparitions]

Yup, religion is fun for me. Praying to a god with burning candles, carrying out a ritual. It makes my heart race, it's a unique feeling. Learning symbols, new myths and legends, history and occult... it's the funnest thing ever for me. Plus, I genuinely love the earth, and praying to it makes me happy. I don't care if its all horse feathers- its fun, and has meaning to me.

I'm not generalizing atheists, I'm generalizing the collective mindset of human beings. "Religious folk and atheist alike,"
X3
It's good to hear that you are comfortable with what you believe at least. What is Paganism? It's a religion that interests me but I've never looked it up for some reason. I too love this planet and the human race despite our faults. I mean, as far as we know, we are the most intelligent life in the universe and we should try and be more responsible with how we treat Earth because of this. ATM this is our only habitable planet, we don't want to fuck it up. Oh, and I didn't see the bit about religious folk. My argument applies to them as well I suppose.

[Dorsum Oppel]

It's earth worship...
You know, it's such a broad umbrella term that it's hard to define.

http://walkingthehedge.net/wildgeekhang/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51:what-is-a-hedgewitch&catid=38:hedgewitchy&Itemid=93

That's me.^

I personally love Epona, a gaulish goddess of horses.

[Apparitions]

It's earth worship...
You know, it's such a broad umbrella term that it's hard to define.

http://walkingthehedge.net/wildgeekhang/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51:what-is-a-hedgewitch&catid=38:hedgewitchy&Itemid=93

That's me.^

I personally love Epona, a gaulish goddess of horses.
Sounds cool. I wouldn't join it but I do agree with the whole 'treat Earth well' thing that Paganism generally believes. I'll look into it more in the future. I couldn't pray to grass and bushes though, no offence...

[Greggy]

I guess I don't necessarily have a religion, if I had to choose, it would be agnosticism... Though I really don't care about it, don't really need to concern myself with senseless beliefs. I do not have anything against any other religion. I for one find them beautiful, Comparative Religions was one of my favorite classes. I prefer to learn more about them, and better understand them, not discriminate them, because the religion is never corrupt. For instance: The Bible, it is a beautiful work of literature. It has so much more in it than telling people what's wrong. I recommend reading it. (:

[INFERNO]

Yeah, I see what you mean. It's difficult to put a definition to religion since there are many types of religious beliefs. If I may add this though: Scientists doesn't usually believe, they prove.

True, scientists to attempt to prove but the reason I used the word "belief" specifically as opposed to "prove" is because in order to prove something, you must have some belief that it is true/false. The reasons for one's belief don't need to be purely faith-based, they can be based on other proofs.

I chose Christianity as it the religion I understand the most having been Catholic for 12 of my 15 years alive. It is also rather easy to find contradictions in Christianity because of this. If I had chosen Islam for example it would have been wrong of me to do so as I do not know too much about it and would have looked stupid. It is hard to disprove the religions without a Deity because they are usually quite philosophical and you have to understand their beliefs to disprove them. Going to LaVeyan Satanism again I have to find fault in certain ideas of theirs though. It is a sin to be stupid and apparently you should all be very intelligent etc which is just not realistic. I would argue against religions such as this though as their philosophical beliefs tell people how to live their lives which I absolutely hate about religion the most. I will look more into these religions though, just so I can argue against them .

Fair enough reason for choosing Christianity or any "main religion" and I'm guilty of that too but if one is to use their argument to argue or disprove all religions, then Christianity alone cannot suffice. Although the philosophical, non-deity religions tell people how to live their life, it only applies if one believes in it to begin with. It sounds rather silly of me to say this but if someone is willing to accept the particular religion, then they accept the philosophies that come with it. It's nonsensical to say something such as "I'm a Christian but don't adhere to any of the Christian beliefs". It's practical to not believe in a select few of the beliefs but to not believe in any, that is nonsensical.


Does that mean you like it? I'm glad if so . I do not know the scientific reasons why there is no God too much so I use the historical and astrological reasons (the ones in Zeitgeist. I suggest you watch it, it's very interesting.).

I sort of like it because it's an argument that seems very applicable to many religions, not only to a select few. However, it does in turn lead to another argument or rather a dilemma which one must first address, which is does one place more value on traditional beliefs or on newer, non-traditional beliefs? Although one can argue for either side, I'm more partial to placing more value on non-traditional, newer beliefs. One thing that is observed cross-culturally is modern cultures are more individualistic than collectivistic using Hofstede's spectrum (if they once were more collectivistic) and this has been documented to lead to some negative results. However, despite its problem, I do like it although it's not a terribly new argument many people haven't heard.

Yes, it's a shame that a lot of people just accept religion and don't question it. We could possibly have far more independent thinkers in this world than we do know, which would be beneficial to society. I guess some people just get so comfortable with their beliefs that they are scared of questioning them in case they realise that they are possibly wrong. I dislike parents passing their religion on to their kids, which is lazy and quite controlling of them. When I have kids I plan to give them information them on many religions and let them decide for themselves as others, even religious parents, should. I guess the world doesn't work that way though . As for being part of a religion just to not be persecuted I think that this is one of the worst things about the world today. In Islam countries for example people are badly persecuted for not worshipping Allah and whatever and some people there aren't brave enough to admit that they think it's a load of bullshit. This even happens in the Western world where there are places where if you don't believe in the Christian God then you are persecuted as much as you are in Islamic countries. This needs to stop.

Don't be so fast to write all of them off because you need to look at the social and historical factors. When there are times when people are told to either follow the new religious view or be killed, people may choose to believe even if it goes against their traditional views. Years later, the views that were once imposed are still believed despite the threat having been gone. People don't form a new belief publically as it will boot them out of the "in-group", something people do not want. In certain places, it may even be dangerous to do so, hence, they stick with the beliefs that were imposed on them not necessarily because they care for them.

I know you didn't say that, I'm just saying it in response to the people who do believe this (free speech ftw). I generally prefer philosophical religions, they generally use their brains more than religions with God(s). It is a shame when the religions you talk about here are called 'cults' by people, including the biased, prejudiced media who don't make the effort to learn about these religions and try and scare people off them by using the 'cult' label which is viewed negatively. Yet another example of our corrupt media. I see what you mean by more people believing means they might not be delusional (they are though, why are humans different from other animals and plants and have an afterlife to look forward to?). Me calling them delusional does not mean that I view them as mentally ill (religion is quite a hard-to-explain delusion). After all I have many religious friends that are equally if not more, only that I view their beliefs as massively optimistic to say the very least. By the way, I didn't say that you said that I think that religious people are not as intelligent as me, just so you know.

Sometimes they're called cults because they may meet the definition of a cult, which has the negative stigma. If you think about it, "cult" is a specific word for a type of group yet saying "group" doesn't have a negative stigma.

[Dorsum Oppel]

Sounds cool. I wouldn't join it but I do agree with the whole 'treat Earth well' thing that Paganism generally believes. I'll look into it more in the future. I couldn't pray to grass and bushes though, no offence...

It's okay. Although, grass and bushes do a lot more for us than some humans do.

[Death]

But then again, people wouldn't really pray to humans either. This, in fact, seems interesting because if I were to pray, I would rather do it to a human (which I could see and hear - although not at the time that I was praying) than to a God (which I can never see or hear until it's too late - which may well turn out to be all a myth anyway).

[deadpie]

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l1jsjp3WZ21qzzgufo1_500.jpg


This is what religion is to me.

[Commander Thor]

<img_that_doesn't_need_to_be_posted_multiple_times.png>
This is what religion is to me.

I much prefer this one:
http://hcx0oa.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pSRXJTYjHp-Cso8LB3if-wKgVqA5SkfEbNCYyOImrcMTAjRU9r8cnVH0Jpif3TgcuBQkUOgcgxcVfAEvOW9-JKp5IrEBtdiy6/d80961012.jpg

[steve1234]

I'm Athiest and proud!

I have an illness which means I will die when I am around 40! So I find it hard to believe in someone who would treat me like shit.

Also, I live on the fringes of east London, where there is a huge amount of muslims. The majority are good people, but there are far too many angry, violent 'radicalist' muslims who think they are better than anyone else and think all white people and all non-muslims should rot in hell. I was attacked on a night bus in Stratford (where the 2012 Olympics will be held!! :D ) by a muslim who said 'i am doing Allah's work by harming white scum'. He probably wasn't a proper muslim though, as most of them are good people. Racial tension in east London is probably at it's worst.

Also, many of the Christian groups near where I live, and some of them are anti-homosexual racists who are trying to get 'down with the kids' by trying to speak their language and setting up 'yoof groups' ...facepalm!

Aswell as my illness, I cannot understand why any God would allow all this suffering in the world. There is far too much suffering, and its very depressing!

Anyway, there are many reasons why I am not religious, but there are my main reasons.

[mirr0rz]

I'm an atheist. I've never been much into believing the whole God business. I don't see it. Christianity, being the most familiar, makes no sense to me. I do not, and suspect I never will, understand it. One thing has been troubling me recently though. Agnostics. Why do you consider yourself agnostic and not atheist? Agnosticism deal with knowledge while theism/atheism deals with belief. I'm an agnostic atheist, meaning I don't know whether or not there is a God. Please tell me if your definitions are different than mine, but I consider anyone who doesn't accept theism or deism, an atheist. I'm not trying to be hateful or anything, I'm just curious.

[Peace God]

I'm an atheist. I've never been much into believing the whole God business. I don't see it. Christianity, being the most familiar, makes no sense to me. I do not, and suspect I never will, understand it. One thing has been troubling me recently though. Agnostics. Why do you consider yourself agnostic and not atheist? Agnosticism deal with knowledge while theism/atheism deals with belief. I'm an agnostic atheist, meaning I don't know whether or not there is a God. Please tell me if your definitions are different than mine, but I consider anyone who doesn't accept theism or deism, an atheist. I'm not trying to be hateful or anything, I'm just curious.
Agnostic is simply a statement of knowledge(not a statement of belief) and technically everyone is agnostic whether they admit it or not. There are agnostic theists, agnostic atheist and agnostics here's the difference
when some is asked do you believe in god?:
the theist will answer...yes
the atheist will answer...no
the agnostic will say..."idk"..."i cant answer that"...N/A..."that question is irrelevant", etc

[mirr0rz]

the agnostic will say..."idk"..."i cant answer that"...N/A..."that question is irrelevant", etc

I don't understand that. How can you not know if you believe or not? Either you believe in God or you don't; I don't see how there's a middle ground.

[deadpie]

I much prefer this one:


Yeah, because putting things in demotivators make things SOOO halarious. This is pure sarcasm.

[Commander Thor]

I don't understand that. How can you not know if you believe or not? Either you believe in God or you don't; I don't see how there's a middle ground.

Here's a better explanation of it.

The theist will say, without a doubt in his mind, that "yes, indeed God does exist."
The atheist will say, "no way in hell that a God exists, it's just not possible!"
The agnostic will say, "I don't have the evidence to either confirm or deny the existence of God." or something similar.

[INFERNO]

I don't understand that. How can you not know if you believe or not? Either you believe in God or you don't; I don't see how there's a middle ground.

There can be a middle ground when one is searching for a belief after abandoning a previous belief. Alternatively, one can have a philosophy of life they adhere to but begin questioning whether certain events are due to a higher being or not. When their philosophy does not provide a suitable answer, then one questions their view on life as well as whether a higher being exists.

[wtrocks]

Well, lately my religious views have been conflicting, because I was wiccan, but after discovering spiritual satanism, my entire perspective of everything spiritual has been thrown off balance. So for now, ill label myself as agnostic.
BTW in case someone jumps to conclusions and labels Spiritual Satanism as the Christian's version of worshiping evil and sacrificing goats and what not, and calls me evil for considering it, hold up. Cuz that's not the case. Also, spiritual satanism differs from Anton Lavey's version of satanism.

[deadpie]

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/890/1273781525491.png


This is how I kind of feel about prayer. It's pretty much mental masturbation in my opinion- it just makes you feel better for the time being and it's simple to do.

[kingpinnn]

that is probably the best explanation ever

[Death]

I agree. A while ago (whilst I was an agnostic), I had a horrible cold and my voice was terrible. I decided to pray to God to ask him to help me get over it (not sure whether or not doing so would be effective). And what happened the next day? It got worse. What a surprise.

[CaliKid24]

i believe in a God. but i dont believe in religions.

[Death]

Then why do you believe in 'a god' or 'God' (whichever you believe)?

[Apparitions]

Then why do you believe in 'a god' or 'God' (whichever you believe)?
I'm guessing he doesn't like organised religion. What does he believe his God is then?

[notanorchestra]

I guess I am agnostic, or Buddhist without the spritual concepts. I don't really know if there is or isn't a higher power, therefor I will not claim that I know that there is one. I find all religions ignorant, because there is no proof at all. Whether you believe in the Big Bang theory, that does not explain where the stars/ planets/ whatever came from for this to happen. Evolution does not explain the origion of the universe.

I think that if you have a sincere belief in something (religiously), it is true. If one sincerely believes that they will stay in the ground and rot after death, and their soul with die with them, then that will happen. If one believes their soul will go to the Christian Heaven, then that will happen.

[Sage]

I think that if you have a sincere belief in something (religiously), it is true. If one sincerely believes that they will stay in the ground and rot after death, and their soul with die with them, then that will happen. If one believes their soul will go to the Christian Heaven, then that will happen.

I sincerely believe that when I die I am going to explode with the force of an atom bomb. This doesn't make it true.

[INFERNO]

I guess I am agnostic, or Buddhist without the spritual concepts. I don't really know if there is or isn't a higher power, therefor I will not claim that I know that there is one. I find all religions ignorant, because there is no proof at all. Whether you believe in the Big Bang theory, that does not explain where the stars/ planets/ whatever came from for this to happen. Evolution does not explain the origion of the universe.

Evolution in no way is meant to explain the origin of the universe. It assumes the universe began through some way and that the planets, starts and other astronomical features were made somehow. It only begins either at chemical evolution or biological evolution.

The Big Bang Theory works with scientific explanations for the formation of starts, planets and such. It does not directly explain it but it does explain how the components or resources got there.


I think that if you have a sincere belief in something (religiously), it is true. If one sincerely believes that they will stay in the ground and rot after death, and their soul with die with them, then that will happen. If one believes their soul will go to the Christian Heaven, then that will happen.

Just to understand you, you believe that just through immense rehearsal of one's beliefs, their beliefs will be manifested in reality? Do you extend this rationality to events that occur within our lives? The best example would be of the sci-fi novel and movie, The Sphere, where the researchers enter "the sphere" and discover through events that their thoughts are being physically manifested.

[Sith Lord 13]

Just to understand you, you believe that just through immense rehearsal of one's beliefs, their beliefs will be manifested in reality? Do you extend this rationality to events that occur within our lives? The best example would be of the sci-fi novel and movie, The Sphere, where the researchers enter "the sphere" and discover through events that their thoughts are being physically manifested.

I love that book!

/off topicness

[notanorchestra]

I sincerely believe that when I die I am going to explode with the force of an atom bomb. This doesn't make it true.
Perception is reality. A great philosopher once said "I think, therefore I am." This means that you can only be sure of your own being, and your own thoughts. We only really see things because we percieve them as real. However, when someone percieves something differently, we consider that insanity, a different religion, or really a number of different things. There are physical boundaries to this (if you percieve that a deadly chemical is water and you drink it, you will die), but that does not mean in the case of an afterlife that one thing cannot happen. There is no known universal reality in the case of afterlife, so it is what you percieve.
There are an infinite number of perceptions of the universe. Think of it like the butterfly effect. In each alternate perception, one small change in action may have caused this giant chain of events, and even though we here see what is happening here, who can say what is going on in these alternate universes? Only those who do percieve the universe in alternate forms.
I may, in the event of my death, percieve myself as completely dead, in the ground, with no life at all, while a devout Christian may percieve me as someone in Hell, because I have no belief in a God.

Personally, I like to think of afterlife as meditation.
It is your own. Everybody reaches a meditative state differently, and through meditation, people percieve things differently.
Death is whatever you make it, so then life is also.

Because you make your death to be an explosion, you will explode. Other people may not percieve your explosion as reality, however you do, and that is really all that matters.

Evolution in no way is meant to explain the origin of the universe. It assumes the universe began through some way and that the planets, starts and other astronomical features were made somehow. It only begins either at chemical evolution or biological evolution.

The Big Bang Theory works with scientific explanations for the formation of starts, planets and such. It does not directly explain it but it does explain how the components or resources got there.



Just to understand you, you believe that just through immense rehearsal of one's beliefs, their beliefs will be manifested in reality? Do you extend this rationality to events that occur within our lives? The best example would be of the sci-fi novel and movie, The Sphere, where the researchers enter "the sphere" and discover through events that their thoughts are being physically manifested.
What I was trying to say about the Big Bang Theory and evolution is that they are not really that explanatory. They still leave the most important question left unanswered-- how did the universe start?

I cannot really say if I know what The Sphere is, because I haven't heard of it. But basically, what I said above is what I am talking about.

I can go into more depth, but that requires a discussion of quantumphysics and I need to track down some information I read from Stephen Hawking if I want to go into that. I just had a conversation about this today with my friend Charles, who is probably the most intelligent person I know, and he holds this same idea, but he just happens to be a ton more educated in the subject than I am.

[Death]

What I was trying to say about the Big Bang Theory and evolution is that they are not really that explanatory. They still leave the most important question left unanswered-- how did the universe start?

If you truly feel the need to ask that question, than you do not understand teh big bang theory because it has already answered that question. All the matter and energy form which this universe is made has always existed because matter is eternal - it is neither created nor destroyed. Since everything has gravity, all the matter could have been forced together allowing the big bang to start. I won't go into the details about how the big bang works, because you have already read up on it, right? ;)

[INFERNO]

What I was trying to say about the Big Bang Theory and evolution is that they are not really that explanatory. They still leave the most important question left unanswered-- how did the universe start?

As said before, evolution is not aimed at explaining how the universe started so I still do not know why you continue to use it in here in this context. If you're going to do that you might as well drag in a theory of social deviance because it's just as irrelevant. Continuing to use it only shows you have little knowledge of basic scientific theories, which carries into the next part of your response.


I can go into more depth, but that requires a discussion of quantumphysics and I need to track down some information I read from Stephen Hawking if I want to go into that. I just had a conversation about this today with my friend Charles, who is probably the most intelligent person I know, and he holds this same idea, but he just happens to be a ton more educated in the subject than I am.

Before either of us go into quantum physics level of detail, you keep asking how the universe formed in reference to the Big Bang Theory. This is a redundant question because if you know what it means, you know how it attempts to explain it. However, as mentioned above with your persistence to include evolution, it demonstrates you don't understand some of the fundamental scientific theories, and so I'm wondering do you actually understand what the Big Bang Theory is without going into quantum details?

[Sith Lord 13]

If you truly feel the need to ask that question, than you do not understand teh big bang theory because it has already answered that question. All the matter and energy form which this universe is made has always existed because matter is eternal - it is neither created nor destroyed. Since everything has gravity, all the matter could have been forced together allowing the big bang to start. I won't go into the details about how the big bang works, because you have already read up on it, right? ;)

Actually, no. The big bang only goes back to the big bang. Scientists know that there was something before this. They just have no clue what. They have no clue what caused the big bang. God is one possible answer to that question.

PS. Yes, there is the theory of the big crunch, but that only sends us back farther, not to the beginning.

[Death]

I wouldn't be surprised if universes existed before the Big Bang, but can there ever be a beginning? I'm sorry, but even the 'explanation' or God does not mean that he was the beginning since he would need a creator and so on and so forth.

[Magus]

I'm sorry, but even the 'explanation' or God does not mean that he was the beginning since he would need a creator and so on and so forth.

This is what I call as x^y, where (y) = x^x^x^x...

If God was there, who created that God? And that God is there, then who created that God? It goes on, and so it rounds up into one. Why not?

[Death]

For the same reason why many universes could have existed before this one.

[INFERNO]

God is one possible answer to that question.


But which god or goddess? If one is to say the Christian god may be a scientific answer (in whatever way), it opens the door to all supernatural beings with said power so "god" being one possible answer only means a strong supernatural entity as a possible answer. One cannot rule out which god or goddess it would be. If accepted, this still leads to a question of what brought about that supernatural being? If one postulates that said supernatural being exists forever, that is an unsupported scientific explanation with as much value as saying the supernatural being really came from Ozzy Osbourne or Elvis Presley. In other words, you can claim it was a supernatural being but you cannot ascribe any qualities or characteristics to it because they have no value. Thus, the statement of "some supernatural being whose characteristics and qualities we don't know" isn't a scientific answer nor is it a good answer.

[notanorchestra]

What I meant was to ask was "what was before the Big Bang?" "What matter was alive, and evolved into life such as ourself?" These questions are both unanswered by either theory. Now, there could be some higher power that created all of this, but I have not found any convincing evidence to act as proof. Even if there is some high power, I have to wonder, what created it?

I recognize that both the theories of evolution and the Big Bang theory explain completely different things, but they are what I see most religous fanatics freak out about, so that is what I am discussing.

[INFERNO]

What I meant was to ask was "what was before the Big Bang?" "What matter was alive, and evolved into life such as ourself?" These questions are both unanswered by either theory. Now, there could be some higher power that created all of this, but I have not found any convincing evidence to act as proof. Even if there is some high power, I have to wonder, what created it?

The First Cause: what made the very first god? The same begins to apply for the Big Bang: the Big Crunch explains there were previous big bangs but leads to the same question as the first cause. A different theory which scientists are favouring is String Theory and M-Theory, so you may want to begin to include those.


I recognize that both the theories of evolution and the Big Bang theory explain completely different things, but they are what I see most religous fanatics freak out about, so that is what I am discussing.

If you know evolutionary theory does not pertain to this discussion at all, then the point you've proven is those religious fanatics don't know what it is they're against. No sense in continuing to use it because it makes you look like you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

[deadpie]

I was wondering why some parents would rather let their kids watch the violent movie, "Passion Of The Christ" at such a young age but not let their kids watch some Friday The 13th movie. I mean, their pretty much the same thing - Extremely violent. Actually, Passion Of The Christ is worse on violence. It's pretty much saying to your kid, "And this is what Jesus did for you! You see all that blood and the nails going in him? YEAH! FOR YOU!"

Care to ramble?

[Magus]

I was wondering why some parents would rather let their kids watch the violent movie, "Passion Of The Christ" at such a young age but not let their kids watch some Friday The 13th movie. I mean, their pretty much the same thing - Extremely violent. Actually, Passion Of The Christ is worse on violence. It's pretty much saying to your kid, "And this is what Jesus did for you! You see all that blood and the nails going in him? YEAH! FOR YOU!"

Care to ramble?

I watched "Passion of the Christ" recently, I watched Friday The 13th Movie back then. But, I know where you are getting.

But, it is like you are saying "They should not make/show movies based on religion!".

Friday The 13th contains scenes of sexual pervertedness, Strong/violent language and extreme gore(decapitation, disembowelment and mutilation) . Whereas the other does not. There is a significant contrast, my friend.

[deadpie]

But, it is like you are saying "They should not make/show movies based on religion!".

Friday The 13th contains scenes of sexual pervertedness, Strong/violent language and extreme gore(decapitation, disembowelment and mutilation) . Whereas the other does not. There is a significant contrast, my friend.

IMDB Parents Guide (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0335345/parentalguide)

Jesus is handcuffed to a pole and brutally whipped. He falls, gets up and the soldiers change the whipping weapon from a small rope to a chain-like whip with hooks on the end. The cuts shown are very realistic. Jesus is covered in blood and his blood spurts on the soldiers' faces and on the ground. This scene is very brutal, graphic, and heavy. Mary is given towels to clean up the blood after the whipping is over.

A man hangs himself from a tree.

A crown of thorns is placed on Jesus' head. A soldier pushes the thorns into his head using a stick. The thorns are shown graphically penetrating the skin

Throughout almost the entire movie, Jesus is completely covered in blood and cuts.

A soldier's ear is cut off.

When Jesus is placed on the cross, nails are hammered into his palms and feet. The nails are shown going right through his hands and feet and through the wood. This scene is very graphic and is not for the faint of heart. Much blood is shown.

A man's eyes are pecked at by a crow. Blood is shown.

After Jesus has died, a soldier plunges a spear under his rib to make sure he is dead. A very large amount of blood spurts out.

All violence is extreme and bloody. Do not watch if you have a weak stomach.

The scenes of violence are very disturbing, intense and frightening, especially to young children. Brutal to watch.


No, I mean that showing violence in religion shouldn't be the way to convince a child to believe in something. And there is extreme violence in Passion Of The Christ

[Magus]

No, I mean that showing violence in religion shouldn't be the way to convince a child to believe in something. And there is extreme violence in Passion Of The Christ

Contrast:

A boy is stabbed in the stomach (blood is shown on his mouth and stomach.) A girl, having witnessed this, backs against a wall as the killer chases her and screams as she is presumably killed off-screen.

A girl jumps out of a jeep, injuring her ankle, and limps through a forest. She is then cornered by the killer and her throat is slit with a large hunting knife (blood is shown on her neck.)

While searching for a snake in a cabin, several characters accidentally knock over a bedside table and tear a bed apart until a boy finds the snake and chops it in half with a machete.

A boy's corpse is shown in a bed with a bloody, slit throat. As another boy lies in the bed below, the blood begins to drip onto his forehead when suddenly, the killer grabs him by the head from behind and impales him through the neck with an arrow (we see the tip of the arrow penetrating his neck as blood gushes out of the wound.)

A girl is stabbed in the head with an axe (we see the axe coming down and then see the girl fall to the floor with the axe still in her head surrounded by blood.)

A girl runs into an archery range and we hear her scream off-screen as she is presumably killed.

A man is stabbed in the chest.

A girl and a boy find a bloody axe on a bed.

A girl finds a boy's bloody corpse hanging on a door, impaled and held up by arrows. The girl then runs to a cabin, where another girl's bloody corpse is flung through a glass window.

The girl is later attacked by a woman (who reveals herself to be the killer) with a large knife, who charges at her, but the girl grabs a fireplace poker and hits the woman twice with it, knocking her over onto a couch. The girl then runs out of the cabin, finding a man's bloody corpse with a knife in his chest hanging upside down from a tree and a girl's bloody corpse with a slit throat in a car. The girl goes into a boathouse, where she attempts to load a shotgun with bullets, but the woman suddenly appears and corners the girl against a wall. The girl is then thrown down by the woman, who slaps her in the face four times, but the girl reaches for the shotgun and uses it to hit the woman and knock her across the room. The girl then runs back to the cabin and hides in the kitchen, locking the door behind her. The woman begins violently breaking the door down with a machete and enters the kitchen, slashing the machete wildly at the girl, attempting to stab her with it, but the girl hits the woman over the head with a frying pan, knocking her unconscious (we see some blood coming from her head.) The girl then runs out to a boat to wait for help when suddenly, the woman appears behind her and raises the machete. The girl holds up the boat's oar to defend herself, but the machete breaks it in half. The girl falls out of the boat onto the beach and the woman stabs at the ground, but the girl rolls out of the way. The woman drops the machete and attacks the girl as they struggle on the beach with the woman attempting to strangle the girl and then biting her on the arm. The girl rolls over and the woman begins beating her head against the ground, but the girl bites the woman's arm and escapes. She runs across the beach and picks up the machete, charging at the woman, and decapitates her (we see her bloody head fall off into the water, the bloody stump at the top of her neck, and some blood on the machete.)

As the girl rests in the boat, a boy's decomposing corpse jumps out of the lake and pulls her underwater. We later see her in a hospital, apparently injured, but alive.

Profanity:
Some mild language, such as "shit" and "goddamn", is used infrequently during the film; a few mild profanities, sexual references, and drug references (e.g. "Colombian gold", "hash", "grass", "weed") are used as well.

Alcohol/Drugs/Smoking:
Two boys horse around with a policeman while supposedly under the influence of marijuana (they are not shown smoking).

A boy smokes a cigarette in one scene.

Two girls and a boy drink beer and smoke marijuana while playing Strip Monopoly.

==========================================

Yes, I have seen those scenes in the Passion of Christ,(dubbed: Pain of Christ in the Arabic DVD release - only subtitles were present) and they are not of the intensity of the Friday the 13th.

[deadpie]

Contrast:

Yes, I have seen those scenes in the Passion of Christ,(dubbed: Pain of Christ in the Arabic DVD release - only subtitles were present) and they are not of the intensity of the Friday the 13th.

Did you not read what I posted? I mean that showing violence in religion shouldn't be the way to convince a child to believe in something. And there is extreme violence in Passion Of The Christ

Nobody listens to anything. Oh, and good job using the same thing I used. That was really a big surprise. I didn't see that one coming from one inch away.

[Magus]

Did you not read what I posted? I mean that showing violence in religion shouldn't be the way to convince a child to believe in something. And there is extreme violence in Passion Of The Christ.

I agree to some extent that this is beyond foolishness. The Shiite minority(usually the twelver) group, and at Husseinia, they are trying to show and depict the same horror that Imam Hussein went through. While majority of Islam is, of course, are dismayed by this act(it is actually an act).

True, violence is not the answer.(You should have worded that way instead), but still, a movie is a movie.

But, if you are saying that they are teaching children using that movie, it is absolutely wrong. And the movies intent were never religious. (Funny - Mel Gibson and his Jew cussing prowess)

Oh, and good job using the same thing I used. That was really a big surprise. I didn't see that one coming from one inch away.

You didn't believe in me when I told you there is contrast!

[deadpie]

But, if you are saying that they are teaching children using that movie

Yes. That was my point. And I know many parents that have done this with their children and it's completely moronic.

[Death]

It seems somewhat disturbing that some people are so eager to believe in a religion which mentions so much violence throughout in it 'holy book' - not just at the time mentioned above.

[Apparitions]

It seems somewhat disturbing that some people are so eager to believe in a religion which mentions so much violence throughout in it 'holy book' - not just at the time mentioned above.
Yes it is disturbing, isn't it? I can't believe that I used to believe in and defend Christianity. Not my fault, my parentals (well, my mum and my nan) kind of made me like what happened to them when they were kids. I find Christianity more than a little hypocritical with the point you made here.

[The Batman]

I find it disturbing how people are so willing to condemn Christianity at every turn only because of what the bible says about them condemning others.

[Magus]

I find it disturbing how people are so willing to condemn Christianity at every turn only because of what the bible says about them condemning others.

I couldn't agree more.

[Kuervo]

I definately believe in a Creator, Supreme Being, etc. who I think is God. I don't quite believe in Adam and Eve being the first two human beings. I think God didn't create man at first, He first created dinosaurs but wiped them out. Then He helped life along afterwards and when primates came along, He had the idea for humans, so He made evolution happen. I think God made evolution happen because for apes to evolve into humans by mutations and stuff is very unlikely and would take a lot longer than it actually took, IMO.

You are very right, -[[NeverLetGo]]-, I hate wars over religion and lots of Christians believing they're superior to atheists, Jews, Muslims, etc. and being hateful to their fellow man cuz they don't go to Christian church every Sunday. Combining all religions into a loving, accepting, very flexible one we could finally live in peace. Yeah I know, wishful thinking, but in the words of John Lennon "You may say I'm a dreamer/But I'm not the only one/Someday you might join us/And the world will be as one"

the Bible isnt necessarily all true. u have to view it in a contexualist way. its not a history book either.
God started life then evolution took over with all tht crap
I as a Catholic dont believe everything tht the Chruch does is right. there r somethings tht i agree with Muslims, well not the violence part thts very horrible.
btw i like tht quote by john lenon, totally agree

[Death]

I find it disturbing how people are so willing to condemn Christianity at every turn only because of what the bible says about them condemning others.

I couldn't agree more.

I also find it disturbing how Christians can't stand it when people say things that are both true and may reflect badly on their beliefs. Besides, why is what the bible says about condeming others not to be condemned in itself? Can anyone really condone all the awful things it says?

[The Batman]

I also find it disturbing how Christians can't stand it when people say things that are both true and may reflect badly on their beliefs. Besides, why is what the bible says about condeming others not to be condemned in itself? Can anyone really condone all the awful things it says?
I'm not a Christian and I don't mind people saying things against it but when it gets to the point where more than 50% of their posts are about how horrible Christianity is then it gets to a disturbing level. Just because the bible says horrible things it doesn't give you free range to bash it at every turn. A debate is about disproving the other point while proving yours but all you seem to do is say Christianity is horrible and the God is a ruthless bastard. You don't provide facts, statistics, or even sources most of what you say comes from your opinion or something someone else has posted. Also if you're atheist what's the point in going on a tyrant about a God you don't believe in and stories that never happened?

[Sage]

the Bible isnt necessarily all true. u have to view it in a contexualist way. its not a history book either.
God started life then evolution took over with all tht crap
I as a Catholic dont believe everything tht the Chruch does is right. there r somethings tht i agree with Muslims, well not the violence part thts very horrible.
btw i like tht quote by john lenon, totally agree

Just so you're aware, Melchoir's post that you're quoting is from four years ago. For the sake of staying on topic...


God started life then evolution took over with all tht crap
Why?

I as a Catholic dont believe everything tht the Chruch does is right.
There are MANY things the Catholic Church has done throughout history and to the modern day that are despicable. If you don't support those things, why do you associate yourself with them by calling yourself a catholic?

[Jenna.]

I'm Christian, more specifically...Catholic, but my family's pretty much non-practicing.

[The Dark Lord]

I find it disturbing how people are so willing to condemn Christianity at every turn only because of what the bible says about them condemning others.

This is why I hate christians. They condemn and look down on us and yet take offense when we do it to they. Christianity IS the bible so of course we are going to form judgements on christians based on the bible

[The Batman]

This is why I hate christians. I'm not a Christian
They condemn and look down on us and yet take offense when we do it to they. Christianity IS the bible so of course we are going to form judgements on christians based on the bible

Also, this forum you'll barely find anyone Christian trying to condemn or convert anyone, in fact the ones that have tried it are no longer here. You'll find more atheists bashing and trying to convert Christians. Like I said in my earlier post I don't care if you do it, it's when you get to the point of doing it every single day in every thread you can find that it gets to the disturbing part.

[Death]

You don't provide facts, statistics, or even sources most of what you say comes from your opinion or something someone else has posted.

I've posted external links before, but I usually prefer to refute what others say with reasons, which is also a debating tactic. I don't paticually care if you like it or not.

Also if you're atheist what's the point in going on a tyrant about a God you don't believe in and stories that never happened?

Isn't it obvious? Just because I don't believe in God, it does not mean that I can't argue against someone when they say that the God of the old testament was a good character. You'll usually find that the best way to refute religious arguments is by using said religion against them, like I've been doing.

You'll find more atheists bashing and trying to convert Christians. Like I said in my earlier post I don't care if you do it, it's when you get to the point of doing it every single day in every thread you can find that it gets to the disturbing part.

Little to no atheists I've met here bash Christians. We are not trying to convert you. But if you say something we disagree with, we'll argue against it in the same way you are arguing against me. Does this surprise you?

[The Dark Lord]

Also, this forum you'll barely find anyone Christian trying to condemn or convert anyone, in fact the ones that have tried it are no longer here. You'll find more atheists bashing and trying to convert Christians. Like I said in my earlier post I don't care if you do it, it's when you get to the point of doing it every single day in every thread you can find that it gets to the disturbing part.

Sorry. However, to say that only athesists bash christians and christians don't then, you are very naive. If you don't agree with someone, your natural instinct is to disagree with them and argue your case. So I think christians give as good as they get

[Apparitions]

There are MANY things the Catholic Church has done throughout history and to the modern day that are despicable. If you don't support those things, why do you associate yourself with them by calling yourself a catholic?
The Crusades, anyone?

Also, this forum you'll barely find anyone Christian trying to condemn or convert anyone, in fact the ones that have tried it are no longer here. You'll find more atheists bashing and trying to convert Christians. Like I said in my earlier post I don't care if you do it, it's when you get to the point of doing it every single day in every thread you can find that it gets to the disturbing part.
LOL! Failpost is fail. All the time, Christians try and convert me. All the fucking time. I don't try and convert anyone, I may point out inaccuracies and flaws in their religion but I leave it up to them to decide for themselves. On the other hand, I always get Christians coming out with bullshit like 'look around you and tell me there is no God' (which I do and enjoy doing as I see them about to facepalm like I'm closed minded when they are the closed minded ones who refuse to believe that they might have spent their whole lives believing a lie, the greatest one ever in fact. To think that it's always Atheists trying to convert and bash Christians is just incomprehensible.

[The Batman]

Yet again I'm quoting myself since you aren't reading my full post.


I've posted external links before, but I usually prefer to refute what others say with reasons, which is also a debating tactic. I don't paticually care if you like it or not.



Isn't it obvious? Just because I don't believe in God, it does not mean that I can't argue against someone when they say that the God of the old testament was a good character. You'll usually find that the best way to refute religious arguments is by using said religion against them, like I've been doing.



Little to no atheists I've met here bash Christians. We are not trying to convert you. But if you say something we disagree with, we'll argue against it in the same way you are arguing against me. Does this surprise you? I don't mind people saying things against it but when it gets to the point where more than 50% of their posts are about how horrible Christianity is then it gets to a disturbing level. Just because the bible says horrible things it doesn't give you free range to bash it at every turn. A debate is about disproving the other point while proving yours but all you seem to do is say Christianity is horrible and the God is a ruthless bastard. You don't provide facts, statistics, or even sources most of what you say comes from your opinion or something someone else has posted.

And for you two.
Sorry. However, to say that only athesists bash christians and christians don't then, you are very naive. If you don't agree with someone, your natural instinct is to disagree with them and argue your case. So I think christians give as good as they get


LOL! Failpost is fail. All the time, Christians try and convert me. All the fucking time. I don't try and convert anyone, I may point out inaccuracies and flaws in their religion but I leave it up to them to decide for themselves. On the other hand, I always get Christians coming out with bullshit like 'look around you and tell me there is no God' (which I do and enjoy doing as I see them about to facepalm like I'm closed minded when they are the closed minded ones who refuse to believe that they might have spent their whole lives believing a lie, the greatest one ever in fact. To think that it's always Atheists trying to convert and bash Christians is just incomprehensible.
Also, this forum you'll barely find anyone Christian trying to condemn or convert anyone, in fact the ones that have tried it are no longer here. You'll find more atheists bashing and trying to convert Christians. Like I said in my earlier post I don't care if you do it, it's when you get to the point of doing it every single day in every thread you can find that it gets to the disturbing part.
Key point I made is this forum.

[The Dark Lord]

And for you two.
Key point I made is this forum.

I think my point still stands if you read other people's posts. Christians tend to post in a condesending and patronising tone as they believe they are superior to us, and I find it offensive so I don't think whether we are in this forum or talking person to person is relevant

[Shortkid]

I think the label that best describes my beliefs is "spiritual, but not religious". Officially, I'm catholic because that is what my family is but I often get turned off by all the ritualistic stuff. I think there is a small strand of God that runs through all of us and a sin occurs when we fail to treat each other as such. I think that technically, I'm supposed to love a murder just as much as I love my mom or dad, but that is easier said than done. I guess I'm just a work in progress. Maybe I'll get there someday.

Chris

[Death]

@Mojo Jojo: As I've said earlier, whether or not you like how I decide to debunk Christianity does not hold much relevance to me when I'm making an argument because I see no reason why it should. Why don't you just try to argue against what I say instead of complaining about how we argue?

Also, I could take your argument and turn it on its head by saying that I find it disturbing how people can completely ignore all the despicable things in the Bible and say how wonderful it all is whilst dismissing the bad points. Am I wrong about the Bible having many awful quotes in it?

[wtrocks]

I'm a satanist.
--
Now, I read this in the last two pages, (about who created god/s, and what not) and i just wanna give my side, which i hope doesn't make me sound stupid, lol..... I would think that the "God/s needed to have a creator" thing would be science related? Everything must have a source or some shit like that? Well, wouldn't God or the Gods or what not transcend the laws of science or whatever? If I'm wrong, correct me. I probably don't know jack about what i'm saying..... lol

[INFERNO]

I'm a satanist.
--
Now, I read this in the last two pages, (about who created god/s, and what not) and i just wanna give my side, which i hope doesn't make me sound stupid, lol..... I would think that the "God/s needed to have a creator" thing would be science related? Everything must have a source or some shit like that? Well, wouldn't God or the Gods or what not transcend the laws of science or whatever? If I'm wrong, correct me. I probably don't know jack about what i'm saying..... lol

Huh?

God(s) needing to have a creator is not science-related, unless you are talking about theistic science, which is not considered science. You really need to look up what science is. I don't often tell people this but you're making me think you're a troll.

As for whether all gods transcribe the laws of science, that's where theological noncognitivism comes in. You need to describe the characteristics of the god because different beliefs ascribe each one differently.

If what you've said you truly believe, then I laugh at you calling yourself a satanist because with this much uneducation on theisticism and science, I doubt you would know much. There are different types of satanism, which do you proclaim you adhere to? Also, do you consider Lucifer and Satan to be one in the same or different beings in the Bible (depends on your answer to the first question)?

[tpzy94]

I love god and never question my being

[Apparitions]

I love god and never question my being
Why not? Why just blindly believe? It is in our nature to be sceptical of such things so why not question it? Even if you don't discover the lies of your religion which you should do (what religion are you part of btw?), you may be able to understand your God better, surely? Never, ever just accept things like this. People have fought wars so that we have the freedom to do things like this, so don't take it for granted.

[The Dark Lord]

I love god and never question my being

Why not? As human beings it is our instinct to question everything. It is this kind of brain washing that is the reason religion is wrong

[Apparitions]

Why not? As human beings it is our instinct to question everything. It is this kind of brain washing that is the reason religion is wrong
Exactly my point.

[Death]

I love god and never question my being

Whoa, you are one boring person. Do you seriously blindly believe and/or go with everything anything you hear without wanting to ask questions? If so, you're an anomaly.

[Thylacine]

I believe in a god. I'm catholic but I certainly don't live my life by the book I'm gay lol. I try to be a good person and help people when I can thats what is important to me. I considered becoming a muslim cause I like some of the ideas of that religion but there are also some other things I don't agree with and its also way to strict. I think I'll just me and hopefully a good person.

[Death]

If you truly considered being a muslim and don't mind following a religion based on a homphobic holy book despite your homosexuality, then I wonder if you say you're Christian because you truly believe it, or simply because you like the ideal of following a religion.

[Magus]

If you truly considered being a muslim and don't mind following a religion based on a homphobic holy book despite your homosexuality, .

Homophobic holy book?

[Colour Fadeout]

accidently clicked atheist, but i'm agnostic.

[Death]

Homophobic holy book?

Leviticus anyone? There's bound to be more, but you don't want to get me started on it, do you?

[Magus]

Leviticus anyone? There's bound to be more, but you don't want to get me started on it, do you?

Leviticus? I don't see the relation between that and Islam. If you would like to explain, then I am all ears(in this case, eyes).

[tpzy94]

im non denominational christian and if you have had a life like mine and seen the miracles in my life then you would understand that these things arent lucky happenings this is beyond our control and the more you study about the LORd the more you understand your life and being

[tpzy94]

ok why wuld i question if i already know it wtf im tired of people saying dat really well atleast i kno where im going wen i do it mite b in your nature 2 question but in mind its not anymore and ayo im not a boring person i go and do waymore things then you and yes i can go to places just because your a christian doesnt mean u cant have fun you people are goin around in life without a purpose maybe im nt the strongest christian out there but atleast i believe

[Death]

Leviticus? I don't see the relation between that and Islam. If you would like to explain, then I am all ears(in this case, eyes).

Er, I was actually referring to his belief in Christianity. Therefore, when I said "homophobic holy book", Leviticus is a reason to support that.

im non denominational christian and if you have had a life like mine and seen the miracles in my life

Miracles? Or things that you're simply incapable of explaining? Or maybe things that happened naturally that you view as "miracles". You know, I find it funny and stupid how overused that term is.

then you would understand that these things arent lucky happenings this is beyond our control and the more you study about the LORd the more you understand your life and being

You're only saying that because you are ignorant about anything outside religion. I know that you know little about science because of all the posts you've made in the past which make that obvious so there's no reason why I should find validity in what you say. Besides, does the Bible tell you how your body works? No. Does it feature a God in the Old Testament which killed millions of people and kept thousands of woman as slaves and forced prostitues? Yes.

ok why wuld i question if i already know it wtf im tired of people saying dat really well atleast i kno where im going wen i do it mite b in your nature 2 question

Of course it's human nature to question things. Where would we be if we didn't (apart from mindless "robots" with no innovation)? Even Christians and other theists can question their being.

but in mind its not anymore and ayo im not a boring person

Then why do you only accept what was probably forced onto you (judging by your posts) as an infant? Why do you completely ignore science and other explainations and still bash them despite being ignorant of them?

i go and do waymore things then you and yes i can go to places just because your a christian doesnt mean u cant have fun you people are goin around in life without a purpose maybe im nt the strongest christian out there but atleast i believe

No-one said that Christians can't have fun. And why do you say that you go more places than others?

[Apparitions]

Is it just me or are INFERNO and Death owning every single God-botherer in this thread and the 'God' one? Keep up the good work guys ;)

[tpzy94]

ok whats so great about science ok oooh sooo what nerds tryin 2 prove stupid stuff ooooh fascinating and idk nothing about science funny never failed it or even came close 2 failing it soooo thank you n idc if im ignorant 2 other religions i respect buddist muslim obviously christian all types because unlike athiest they have a purpose in life and even if i dont believe in thier GOD they believe and they worship it the soo i mean i dnt believe the scientist crap cuz they make everything seem man made wtf

[Death]

Is it just me or are INFERNO and Death owning every single God-botherer in this thread and the 'God' one? Keep up the good work guys ;)

LOL, I would +Rep you for that insight, but I've already done so too recently.

ok whats so great about science

Science is all around. Everything that works has science behind it. When you kick a football, cook a meal, even stay alive, they all use Physics, Chemistry, and Biology respectively. Think it through.

ok oooh sooo what nerds tryin 2 prove stupid stuff

I know that by "nerds", you are trying to insult us, but I will actually take that as a compliment since it implies that we are smart and intelligent, which we certianly are. :lol:

ooooh fascinating

It's facinating if you know anything about it or are good at it.

and idk nothing about science funny never failed it or even came close 2 failing it soooo thank you

If that's true, then why do you bash theories like evolution and the Big Bang and yet show in your post that you know nothing about them? Besides, science in schools is too easy nowadays.

n idc if im ignorant 2 other religions i respect buddist muslim obviously christian

Well they are monotheistic religions, and the chances are, you (as a Christian) view it as a different way of finding God. That's what a lot of Christians believe.

all types because unlike athiest they have a purpose in life

You can't argue (or even type) properly, so you just bash us by saying that we have no purpose? Thankyou for giving me yet another reason to say that you are both ignorant, and immature.

and even if i dont believe in thier GOD they believe and they worship it the soo i mean i dnt believe the scientist crap cuz they make everything seem man made wtf

Science crap? So now you're bashing something that has actually been based upon facts, evidence, and intelligent research? And don't go saying that I go and be rude about religion like that, because I've never called religion crap and have alwasy respected religious people. I may argue against them in a debate, but it wouldn't be a debate otherwise. What I said about science cannot be said about religion however, since it is based upon what people believed at the time, which was based upon one man which was most probably lying. It doesn't take a genius to work out which is more reliable.

Science does not make everything make man-made; do you even know anything about what you're talking about? People will respect you more if you can debate maturely without just mindless insulting us, and typing coherantly also helps so that people understand you, so grow up.

BTW, and if you are so "correct", and "superior" to atheists, why have you been frozen?

[deadpie]

ok whats so great about science ok oooh sooo what nerds tryin 2 prove stupid stuff ooooh fascinating and idk nothing about science funny never failed it or even came close 2 failing it soooo thank you n idc if im ignorant 2 other religions i respect buddist muslim obviously christian all types because unlike athiest they have a purpose in life and even if i dont believe in thier GOD they believe and they worship it the soo i mean i dnt believe the scientist crap cuz they make everything seem man made wtf

http://eetd.lbl.gov/ECS/Aerogels/images/magnet-l.jpg


It's all miracles, mah boy. You don't need a scientist.

[Sith Lord 13]

ok whats so great about science ok oooh sooo what nerds tryin 2 prove stupid stuff ooooh fascinating and idk nothing about science funny never failed it or even came close 2 failing it soooo thank you n idc if im ignorant 2 other religions i respect buddist muslim obviously christian all types because unlike athiest they have a purpose in life and even if i dont believe in thier GOD they believe and they worship it the soo i mean i dnt believe the scientist crap cuz they make everything seem man made wtf

And people like you are the reason people think there's a problem between religion and science. Science has no place in a discussion of religion. There is no conflict. As long as you put religion in conflict with science, you'll lose. Religion answers existential questions. The whys. Science answers the hows. Science cannot disprove God. That's because science has nothing to do with God.

Oh, and please, learn to speak proper English. I'd be the last one to condemn someone for misspellings or typos but trying to read your posts gives me a headache.

http://eetd.lbl.gov/ECS/Aerogels/images/magnet-l.jpg


It's all miracles, mah boy. You don't need a scientist.

lolz. :)

[Sage]

ok why wuld i question if i already know it wtf im tired of people saying dat really well atleast i kno where im going wen i do it mite b in your nature 2 question but in mind its not anymore and ayo im not a boring person i go and do waymore things then you and yes i can go to places just because your a christian doesnt mean u cant have fun you people are goin around in life without a purpose maybe im nt the strongest christian out there but atleast i believe

ok whats so great about science ok oooh sooo what nerds tryin 2 prove stupid stuff ooooh fascinating and idk nothing about science funny never failed it or even came close 2 failing it soooo thank you n idc if im ignorant 2 other religions i respect buddist muslim obviously christian all types because unlike athiest they have a purpose in life and even if i dont believe in thier GOD they believe and they worship it the soo i mean i dnt believe the scientist crap cuz they make everything seem man made wtf

I've underlined all the things said in your posts that aren't very righteous or godly. Please, kindly, get off of your moral high horse.

[Insanity Fair]

I've underlined all the things said in your posts that aren't very righteous or godly. Please, kindly, get off of your moral high horse.

And you know it says in the bible that we should be our best at everything we do. So his entire post is ungodly.

[Wetherbubble]

Congregational see both sides of the story

[Apparitions]

What?

[Death]

That post doesn't even make sense.

[ariii94]

I'm an Albanian Muslim. I feel that a lot of people being the majority in a country or area say their religion is correct because there is more of them and less are gonna oppose.

I have no problem with any religion :)

[Enternamehere]

I consider myself a Messianic Jew. I believe Yeshua was the messiah (you know him as Jesus) but I also practice and believe Orthodox Jewish holidays and beliefs.

I have very few problems with other religions, I think people are free to believe whatever they want. But I hate the "Christians" who go around forcing people to become Christians. I also think it's a little weird how Jehovah's Witnesses can't play chess. But other than that I'm fine with other religions.

[Death]

But I hate the "Christians" who go around forcing people to become Christians.

I agree with you on that point, but what about other religions? Does this apply to them in your eyes?

I also think it's a little weird how Jehovah's Witnesses can't play chess.

Can't they?

[world_king]

i beleive in the jehovah's witnesses teachings but i play chess! um i think i can answer one of your question with weird enough a buddhist story that i really like! how does a person know their relegion is right?

The disciples were absorbed in a discussion of Lao-tzu's dictum:
"Those who know, do not say;
Those who say, do not know."
...When the master entered,
they asked him what the words meant.
Said the master, "Which of you knows the fragrance of a rose?"
All of them indicated that they knew.
Then he said, "Put it into words."
All of them were silent.

i think that as long as you live your life to the best and it says in the bible God will judge you upon your heart not your actions you stand a chance of being resurected into his kingdom on earth!
and to those who beleive in god yet hate those who do not share the same beleif as u here is another buddhist saying that i like!

If you live the sacred and despise the ordinary,
you are still bobbing in the ocean of delusion.
Zen Master Lin-Chi

you know the buddhist are verry wise people!

[deadpie]

i beleive in the jehovah's witnesses teachings but i play chess! um i think i can answer one of your question with weird enough a buddhist story that i really like! how does a person know their relegion is right?

The disciples were absorbed in a discussion of Lao-tzu's dictum:
"Those who know, do not say;
Those who say, do not know."
...When the master entered,
they asked him what the words meant.
Said the master, "Which of you knows the fragrance of a rose?"
All of them indicated that they knew.
Then he said, "Put it into words."
All of them were silent.

i think that as long as you live your life to the best and it says in the bible God will judge you upon your heart not your actions you stand a chance of being resurected into his kingdom on earth!
and to those who beleive in god yet hate those who do not share the same beleif as u here is another buddhist saying that i like!

If you live the sacred and despise the ordinary,
you are still bobbing in the ocean of delusion.
Zen Master Lin-Chi

you know the buddhist are verry wise people!


Yes, just say random quotes by Buddhists and that will really win the debate for you.

Maybe if I quote a random part of the bible about human sacrifice I can sound like I'm saying something special too.

"As for you, son of man, prophesy: Thus says the Lord GOD against the Ammonites and their insults: A sword, a sword is drawn for slaughter, burnished to consume and to flash lightning, because you planned with false visions and lying divinations to lay it on the necks of depraved and wicked men whose day has come when their crimes are at an end. Return it to its sheath! In the place where you were created, in the land of your origin, I will judge you. I will pour out my indignation upon you, breathing my fiery wrath upon you, I will hand you over to ravaging men, artisans of destruction. You shall be fuel for the fire, your blood shall flow throughout the land. You shall not be remembered, for I, the LORD, have spoken." (Ezekiel 21:33-37 NAB)

[world_king]

i quoted one thing from the bible that i beleive and then i quoted buddhists! im not trying to be special (lol srry to disapoint) im not special no more or no less then you are anyway and i wasnt trying to win anything just putting in my point of view! you dont have to like it that wont really bother me, to each his own!

[Sage]

i quoted one thing from the bible that i beleive and then i quoted buddhists! im not trying to be special (lol srry to disapoint) im not special no more or no less then you are anyway and i wasnt trying to win anything just putting in my point of view! you dont have to like it that wont really bother me, to each his own!

If everybody believed that all views are equally valid and that we shouldn't argue and just accept that each person has their own beliefs, we wouldn't have a debate forum, now would we?

[Death]

i beleive in the jehovah's witnesses teachings

Do you go from door to door waking everyone up and trying to convert them to your religion?

um i think i can answer one of your question with weird enough a buddhist story that i really like! how does a person know their relegion is right?

You don't, since religion is based merely on blind faith; not proof. That doesn't mean you can't believe it though.

If everybody believed that all views are equally valid and that we shouldn't argue and just accept that each person has their own beliefs, we wouldn't have a debate forum, now would we?

I second this. To often has this point been brought up.

[world_king]

Do you go from door to door waking everyone up and trying to convert them to your religion?

no i dont go door to door and a true witness should not try and convert you (but in every religion you will have a crazy person or two) that doesnt make them all crazy but what a witness should do is just explain their religion to you and invite you to go to kingdom hall if you would wish to if not then and you have to tell them is that but thats not to say that you havent got a really annoying one on your door step that has tried to convert you thats not what they are supose to do!



You don't, since religion is based merely on blind faith; not proof. That doesn't mean you can't believe it though.
we all have blind faith in something like morals where is the proof that the morals you have are the right ones to have? where does it say anywhere that those are the right morals? and im trying to come up with proof that my morals are right but i cant think of proof i just know because they feel like the right ones to have therefore all people have blind faith in their morals.


I second this. To often has this point been brought up.

and your right people are to stuborn and mean to understand that a person is still a person. me on the other hand i like these discussions im not sure why but i do, and no one side will ever win because science defies God and God defies science.

[Death]

science defies God and God defies science.

That's not necessarily true. Some theists interpret their religion in a way that allows it to co-exist with each other. I wouldn't call them opposites. In fact, the vast majority of theists I know believe both.

[Sage]

no one side will ever win because science defies God and God defies science.

Pretty sure one has to exist to win.

[Magus]

In fact, the vast majority of theists I know believe both.

Believe both? What are those two things?

[Death]

Did you not read the quote in my post? I obviously was referring to both religion and science.

[world_king]

i did not know that there were people who put both together! and i think that it is interesting that they do! and to deschain where is your proof that God or a higher being doesnt exist? alot of people need to be able to see something to beleive it but some people dont need to see it or it doesnt need to add up for them! they just beleive! and science still has yet to prove how the universe started even the big bang theory dosent know what started it all! it says that it all started with a singularity but they dont know where that came from! scientists that study the big bang theory wont deny that God exists because they dont know they do not say that he does and they dont say he doesnt!

[Magus]

Did you not read the quote in my post? I obviously was referring to both religion and science.

I don't know about you, but I don't believe in Science. Yes, I don't believe in gravity, magnetism, particles called photons, thermodynamics, and everything in science.

You are, maybe, confused of what I have just said. Read this article CLICK ME (http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/06/02/you-dont-believe-in-science/), and that confusion will recede.

[Enternamehere]

I agree with you on that point, but what about other religions? Does this apply to them in your eyes?

It does actually. I think it's just stupid of people forcing religion on other people, no matter what religion.


Can't they?

No, I don't think that they can. They are against military and militaristic things. They think chess is of a military nature.

[world_king]

a witness can play chess! chess does not involve a gun or taking another humans life. and that is why a witness will not be in the military. but that does not mean we do not love our country and the freedom it and those who sadly but bravely die for it! and my grandfather was a witness and went into the army during wwII but he never really went back to kingdom hall after that not because he was shunned but because war tends to change a person!

[Enternamehere]

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to offend you or any thing. It's just I've heard from multiple sources that Witnesses don't play chess because it's "war-like" in strategy.

[Death]

i did not know that there were people who put both together! and i think that it is interesting that they do! and to deschain where is your proof that God or a higher being doesnt exist?

Surely people should prove something does exist first though? Otherwise, you could just say anything exists and you'd have to believe it. Like Russel's Teapot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot), for instance. I know I keep linking to this, but this a an important point.

alot of people need to be able to see something to beleive it but some people dont need to see it or it doesnt need to add up for them! they just beleive!

And that is what I call disappointing, no offense meant. Humans are supposed to be naturally inquisitive; why would you want to "just" believe something if you can't see, hear, or tell that it exists in any way?

and science still has yet to prove how the universe started even the big bang theory dosent know what started it all!

It's interesting that you say that about science, because it has more proof than religion, which doesn't have any. It's like I've said before (I believe this to be a somewhat well-known quote), science is proof without certainty; religion is certainty without proof. Think of it this way; how did God start?

I don't know about you, but I don't believe in Science. Yes, I don't believe in gravity, magnetism, particles called photons, thermodynamics, and everything in science.

You are, maybe, confused of what I have just said. Read this article CLICK ME (http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/06/02/you-dont-believe-in-science/), and that confusion will recede.

Not being funny, but that article looks like "pedanticness". A lot of people say that they believe in science.

It does actually. I think it's just stupid of people forcing religion on other people, no matter what religion.

I'd agree, but you do realise that Jehovah's Witnesses actually believe that they are doing good by waking you up and trying to convert you?

No, I don't think that they can. They are against military and militaristic things. They think chess is of a military nature.

That's just a stereotype though. There are most likely those that do play chess, even if some don't like to.

[Magus]

Not being funny, but that article looks like "pedanticness". A lot of people say that they believe in science.
I know from where you are getting that. Let me quote the man you look up to:

One reason I receive the comment about science being a religion is because I believe in the fact of evolution

There is a distinction, though. Let me quote him one more time.

Faith, being belief that isn't based on evidence

Science provides what exactly? Proofs that are based on evidence.

It is not a prerequisite for you to believe in laws of Physics to become a Physicist.

[world_king]

please dont think i am offended cuz i am not! as i wont be! and the teapot story was cool to read but there is some proof to God. do you know about the ten plauges of egypt that God put forth on them when the pharaoh would not release the hebrews? well thats not just taught as a bible story it is in egyptian history, these ten plauges did happen according to both the egyptians and the hebrews. and you probably could put science behind those plauges ( and i am sure someone has) but its weird how thay happend to the egyptians at the same time a mans God wanted his people to be set free! and so we all know, i will not get mad at anything posted on here against me or my religion. i just like to debate. and i dont see why a person would get mad on here seeing how this is what a page like this is meant for! and about the how did God start or come into existence and this is hard for any one to understand! but the bible would answer that as God always was and always will be. im not sure how to explain it other then there are some things that we are not meant to understand!

[Enternamehere]

I'd agree, but you do realize that Jehovah's Witnesses actually believe that they are doing good by waking you up and trying to convert you?

Yes I know they think that they are doing good by doing this. But did you realize that the conquistadors thought that they were doing good when they went to Mexico and spread Christianity, the Catholics thought they were doing good when they were in the Thirty Years' War with the Protestants, and the Christians thought they were doing good when they went to Israel to "liberate" the holy land from the Muslims during the Crusades? I realize that these examples are far more drastic than people knocking on doors to spread religion. But it's the same basic concept, they are doing what they did because they thought it was good.

[deadpie]

please dont think i am offended cuz i am not! as i wont be! and the teapot story was cool to read but there is some proof to God. do you know about the ten plauges of egypt that God put forth on them when the pharaoh would not release the hebrews? well thats not just taught as a bible story it is in egyptian history, these ten plauges did happen according to both the egyptians and the hebrews. and you probably could put science behind those plauges ( and i am sure someone has) but its weird how thay happend to the egyptians at the same time a mans God wanted his people to be set free! and so we all know, i will not get mad at anything posted on here against me or my religion. i just like to debate. and i dont see why a person would get mad on here seeing how this is what a page like this is meant for! and about the how did God start or come into existence and this is hard for any one to understand! but the bible would answer that as God always was and always will be. im not sure how to explain it other then there are some things that we are not meant to understand!

http://memegenerator.net/Denial-Bible/ImageMacro/1836485/Denial-Bible-ITS-TRUE-BECAUSE-IT-SAYS-SO.jpg


That's not proof to me.

[world_king]

http://memegenerator.net/Denial-Bible/ImageMacro/1836485/Denial-Bible-ITS-TRUE-BECAUSE-IT-SAYS-SO.jpg


That's not proof to me.

did you not read what all i wrote? it is not just the bible that says the plauges happend the egytians wrote about it in their hyroglifics. now why would the egyptians write anything about another God that they did not believe in that could put their Gods to shame? and like i said before its not just a bible story it is in egyptian history as well!

[Apparitions]

did you not read what all i wrote? it is not just the bible that says the plauges happend the egytians wrote about it in their hyroglifics. now why would the egyptians write anything about another God that they did not believe in that could put their Gods to shame? and like i said before its not just a bible story it is in egyptian history as well!
Dude, face it. THERE IS NO PROOF OF ANY GOD. If there was then I would be spending my Sunday mornings in some Church worshipping one instead of having my guitar lessons.

[Insanity Fair]

Dude, face it. THERE IS NO PROOF OF ANY GOD. If there was then I would be spending my Sunday mornings in some Church worshipping one instead of having my guitar lessons.

That depends on someones opinion of "proof." Someone who has high qualifications for what "proof" is might say that evolution has not been "proven". Someone who has low qualifications for proof might say that christianity has been proven. To understand this qualifications idea I will give you an example.

A mother notices a broken vase and a child with a baseball bat in his hand. The logical explanation is the child broke it right? The bat and the fact that the child is right next to it is proof. In actuality the dog broke the vase running past. The child just happened to be nearby.

[Perseus]

please dont think i am offended cuz i am not! as i wont be! and the teapot story was cool to read but there is some proof to God. do you know about the ten plauges of egypt that God put forth on them when the pharaoh would not release the hebrews? well thats not just taught as a bible story it is in egyptian history, these ten plauges did happen according to both the egyptians and the hebrews. and you probably could put science behind those plauges ( and i am sure someone has) but its weird how thay happend to the egyptians at the same time a mans God wanted his people to be set free!

There is actually a scientific explanation. I watched it on the History Channel. They believe a volcano erupting caused all this, but I don't remember exactly why. I'm sure if you really want to know, you can just look it up.

[world_king]

and after i wrote that i did look it up but what i found didnt say that a volcano started it, it just gave ten nature based things that could have done it. i would give you the link but im not sure where i found it. lol and i am sure that people have tried to explain it in different scenarios. but again i just think that it is weird that this happend to the egyptians when God was comanding his people (the hebrews) to be set free!

[deadpie]

and after i wrote that i did look it up but what i found didnt say that a volcano started it, it just gave ten nature based things that could have done it. i would give you the link but im not sure where i found it. lol and i am sure that people have tried to explain it in different scenarios. but again i just think that it is weird that this happend to the egyptians when God was comanding his people (the hebrews) to be set free!

Well go get your link. Or nobody is going to care about your statements and "facts".

[world_king]

http://www.theweeklyconstitutional.com/news/we-cant-explain-it/458-scientist-prove-the-ten-plagues-of-egypt-really-did-happen


srry ur prolly going to have to copy and paste it but here it is and i did not read all of it the first time but it did say for plauges 7,8, and 9 a volcano could have caused them but there is the link i was on.

[Magus]

Dude, face it. THERE IS NO PROOF OF ANY GOD

If you were debating with anyone and said that, then you would have committed a logical fallacy, which is also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam.

[deadpie]

http://www.theweeklyconstitutional.com/news/we-cant-explain-it/458-scientist-prove-the-ten-plagues-of-egypt-really-did-happen


srry ur prolly going to have to copy and paste it but here it is and i did not read all of it the first time but it did say for plauges 7,8, and 9 a volcano could have caused them but there is the link i was on.

Like it said on the site - But what if science really has proven the cause of the plagues to be nothing more than natural occurring phenomenon presented to Ramses by a very skilled performer?

[world_king]

that could be true but still to me thats a really big coincidence and take from it what you will because to me this is very interesting. and moses could have presented it to the egyptians like it was God. but the timeing is what gets me, moses gos to ramses and demands his people to be set free, ramses cuz of his pride says no and the all that happens? its almost too perfect!

[deadpie]

that could be true but still to me thats a really big coincidence and take from it what you will because to me this is very interesting. and moses could have presented it to the egyptians like it was God. but the timeing is what gets me, moses gos to ramses and demands his people to be set free, ramses cuz of his pride says no and the all that happens? its almost too perfect!

Well if God is real, that's not necessary good. That means he has been ignoring us for a shit load of time and is a violent crazy God. And if you don't believe God is crazy, read about how he wants to kill children -

" The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)"

[Magus]

Well if God is real, that's not necessary good. That means he has been ignoring us for a shit load of time and is a violent crazy God. And if you don't believe God is crazy, read about how he wants to kill children -

" The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)"

It is real, Tim. The religious people just want to relive it.

Disturbing images - Watch at your own consent (http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/norbertbugeja/2008/05/04/reg03.jpg)

[deadpie]

It is real, Tim. The religious people just want to relive it.

Disturbing images - Watch at your own consent (http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/norbertbugeja/2008/05/04/reg03.jpg)

Isn't it strange how christians only want to look at the "happy" parts but not care about the sacrificing children and having rape victims marry their attacker? I don't think people should be able to say, "Oh, I'm a christian, but I don't believe in that part of the bible." That's pretty much going against your religion.

[Apparitions]

If you were debating with anyone and said that, then you would have committed a logical fallacy, which is also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam.
We speak English on this forum. And anyway, there is nothing wrong with my post. I said that there is no proof in God (which there isn't). Problem with that?

[world_king]

Isn't it strange how christians only want to look at the "happy" parts but not care about the sacrificing children and having rape victims marry their attacker? I don't think people should be able to say, "Oh, I'm a christian, but I don't believe in that part of the bible." That's pretty much going against your religion.

your right alot of people do choose parts to believe i know i dont follow it perfectly (not even a little bit) but God does what he does for a reason! even if the child doesnt understand. and God hasnt forgotten us he is letting the world play itself out. what better way to teach a child then to let them see the error of their ways on their own? cuz i dont know of any1 who says their life is perfect or doesnt regret something.

[Magus]

We speak English on this forum. And anyway, there is nothing wrong with my post. I said that there is no proof in God (which there isn't). Problem with that?

No, unfortunately we don't speak English in this forum.

There is something wrong with your previous posts along with this post.
Thus far you have committed 3 logical fallacies, and more than one time.

The problem lies here: they are fallacious(in an argument).

[deadpie]

even if the child doesnt understand. and God hasnt forgotten us he is letting the world play itself out. what better way to teach a child then to let them see the error of their ways on their own? .

I don't think God really would have any good reason for sacrificing children and killing 42,000 people that is acceptably smart.

And your post doesn't make sense. If a child can't understand then how can you teach them errors? And could you make complete sentences and also use correct pronounceable ways of saying the letter I? It's really hard for me to understand what you're typing sometimes.

[Enternamehere]

Dude, face it. THERE IS NO PROOF OF ANY GOD.

I don't think we should have to prove god exists. Faith is a belief that is not based on proof. And proof denies faith, and without faith God is nothing.

[Magus]

I don't think we should have to prove god exists. Faith is a belief that is not based on proof. And proof denies faith, and without faith God is nothing.

I told him that statement is a fallacy, but he seemed that he didn't care at all. Should I brand him a Troll for that act?

Here they are:

The first one is.

- X has not not proven before; therefore, X is false. -

The other one is:

- Either that God exist or does not exist -

And foremostly the "Assertion" fallacies(2 of them!).

Proof by assertion and Bare assertion fallacy.

[deadpie]

I don't think we should have to prove god exists. Faith is a belief that is not based on proof. And proof denies faith, and without faith God is nothing.

And Christians believing in their religion based on "proof" makes God even less then nothing. Plus most people don't even follow 100 percent of their own faith, making them not entirely present to the religion they believe in. "Oh I don't believe in the anti-gay, god killing people in Jerusalem, and children murdered just because. I only believe in this part here!" It's like people are actually making a fool of themselves in this case.

You either believe in all of that religion to follow that religion (meaning you study and appreciate all parts of it) or you are NOT part of that religion.

Figure it out. Deal with it.

[Neverender]

And Christians believing in their religion based on "proof" makes God even less then nothing. Plus most people don't even follow 100 percent of their own faith, making them not entirely present to the religion they believe in. "Oh I don't believe in the anti-gay, god killing people in Jerusalem, and children murdered just because. I only believe in this part here!" It's like people are actually making a fool of themselves in this case.

You either believe in all of that religion to follow that religion (meaning you study and appreciate all parts of it) or you are NOT part of that religion.

Figure it out. Deal with it.

I can sum this whole thread up in a matter of words.

Religion is like Public Relations.
Crap. Built on Lies.


- X has not not proven before; therefore, X is false. -

Well, using scientific logic and thinking, It is much more scientifically likely that since no god has been undoubtly proven, there is no god. This does not mean that there is indefinately no god, but until I see proof of a god, being a person, thing, force, whatever it may be, I have to believe that there is no god, from a purely unbiased 3rd person omniscient standpoint.

The concept of god existing or not is not like the discovery of, for example, neutron stars. Since the '30's, astronomers speculated the existance of such stars but were unable to prove their existance until the '60's. Did this mean that until they were discovered, few believed they existed? Quite possibly. However, it's discovery is not similar to god because a neutron star is something that is a physical feature. It can be touched, measured, etc. (theoretically speaking, although you would be disintegrated by nearing one, but that's besides the point.) God, cannot. God is spirit, force, energy, being, that cannot be measured, touched, or believed from a crappy book written by hypocritical, delusional, power hungry, old men.

[Sage]

without faith God is nothing.

BINGO!

That wasn't so hard to deduce, was it?

[Apparitions]

I told him that statement is a fallacy, but he seemed that he didn't care at all. Should I brand him a Troll for that act?

Here they are:

The first one is.

- X has not not proven before; therefore, X is false. -

The other one is:

- Either that God exist or does not exist -

And foremostly the "Assertion" fallacies(2 of them!).

Proof by assertion and Bare assertion fallacy.
Do you even know what a troll is? I don't care, but only because you refuse to explain yourself when you point out 'fallacy' in my posts. Oh, and you can't use things like X with religion. Also, WTF is 'assertion fallacies'?
No, unfortunately we don't speak English in this forum.

There is something wrong with your previous posts along with this post.
Thus far you have committed 3 logical fallacies, and more than one time.

The problem lies here: they are fallacious(in an argument).
Erm, yes we do speak English. Oh, and if you are going to be picky and start pointing out things in my posts then you could explain them, instead of continually saying they are 'fallacious'

[Magus]

The concept of god existing or not is not like the discovery of, for example, neutron stars. Since the '30's, astronomers speculated the existance of such stars but were unable to prove their existance until the '60's. Did this mean that until they were discovered, few believed they existed? Quite possibly. However, it's discovery is not similar to god because a neutron star is something that is a physical feature. It can be touched, measured, etc. (theoretically speaking, although you would be disintegrated by nearing one, but that's besides the point.) God, cannot. God is spirit, force, energy, being, that cannot be measured, touched, or believed from a crappy book written by hypocritical, delusional, power hungry, old men.

And?

I don't see anything new in this old-hat post. Same ol' same.

Plus, when you say "There is no proofs of God; therefore, god does not exist" is invalid, as this is ad ignorantiam in its purest form.

It is valid in other cases, like in Science, law and the like.

This is from the vast libraries of the internet.

"At one time scientists concluded that DNA would not crystallize because after extensive testing, there was no proof that it would. This conclusion is not fallacious even though now it is known that DNA will crystallize"

Yes, I was revising the logical fallacies. And fallacy remains a fallacy, so you cannot really go "God does not exist because there is no proof of god's existence". Well, that doesn't change the fact that there is no God, because if you say "God do exist because no one has disproven god's existence", the same fallacy, you see.


Do you even know what a troll is? I don't care, but only because you refuse to explain yourself when you point out 'fallacy' in my posts. Oh, and you can't use things like X with religion. Also, WTF is 'assertion fallacies'?

Erm, yes we do speak English. Oh, and if you are going to be picky and start pointing out things in my posts then you could explain them, instead of continually saying they are 'fallacious'


I don't need to point out, one can read out and find the fallacies by themselves.

Assertion fallacy, well...

If you say "GOD DOES NOT EXIST! WOOWHOO!" That's an assertion fallacy.

Yes, we can use X,Y, God, Jesus, Element, anything in debates.

[Apparitions]

And?

I don't see anything new in this old-hat post. Same ol' same.

Plus, when you say "There is no proofs of God; therefore, god does not exist" is invalid, as this is ad ignorantiam in its purest form.

It is valid in other cases, like in Science, law and the like.

This is from the vast libraries of the internet.

"At one time scientists concluded that DNA would not crystallize because after extensive testing, there was no proof that it would. This conclusion is not fallacious even though now it is known that DNA will crystallize"

Yes, I was revising the logical fallacies. And fallacy remains a fallacy, so you cannot really go "God does not exist because there is no proof of god's existence". Well, that doesn't change the fact that there is no God, because if you say "God do exist because no one has disproven god's existence", the same fallacy, you see.
Oh look, he's doing it again :rolleyes:

[Magus]

Oh look, he's doing it again :rolleyes:

You want to check out my previous posts, I have edit it just for you, my love.

[Apparitions]

You want to check out my previous posts, I have edit it just for you, my love.
Thanks, sugar (:D LOLZ...)

[Sordid Saint]

My family is christian, but I never really got into the whole "religion" thing. Myself, I am an Atheist. I don't believe in a greater force creating us. But, I'm very interested in Buddhism. If I had to choose, I would be a Buddhist because it's the religion that makes the most sense to me :P

[Neverender]

And?

I don't see anything new in this old-hat post. Same ol' same.

Plus, when you say "There is no proofs of God; therefore, god does not exist" is invalid, as this is ad ignorantiam in its purest form.

It is valid in other cases, like in Science, law and the like.

This is from the vast libraries of the internet.

"At one time scientists concluded that DNA would not crystallize because after extensive testing, there was no proof that it would. This conclusion is not fallacious even though now it is known that DNA will crystallize"

Yes, I was revising the logical fallacies. And fallacy remains a fallacy, so you cannot really go "God does not exist because there is no proof of god's existence". Well, that doesn't change the fact that there is no God, because if you say "God do exist because no one has disproven god's existence", the same fallacy, you see.

If you're going to be like that, how about this:

We have a conundrum. We can't say there is a god because we have no proof, we cant say their isn't because we have no proof to prove otherwise.

Although the latter is astronomically more likely then a divine being forming our lives and the universe.

[Amnesiac]

My family is christian, but I never really got into the whole "religion" thing. Myself, I am an Atheist. I don't believe in a greater force creating us. But, I'm very interested in Buddhism. If I had to choose, I would be a Buddhist because it's the religion that makes the most sense to me :P

Wow, you're just like me, except that my family isn't religious. I would also consider buddhism since I'm half thai and my mom is a non-practicing buddhist.

[Magus]

If you're going to be like that, how about this:

We have a conundrum. We can't say there is a god because we have no proof, we cant say their isn't because we have no proof to prove otherwise.

Although the latter is astronomically more likely then a divine being forming our lives and the universe.

I didn't get you at all. What are you trying to say exactly?

"We can't say there is a god because we have no proof - of God's existence" I added the extension, that would be the same, argument from ignorance.

And the same applies to the next one. You have just paraphrased it.

And some people tend to equate that to "Proving a negative".

You want to read this: CLICK ME! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof), or better yet this: CLICK ME 2! (http://www.skepdic.com/ignorance.html)

[Apparitions]

My family is christian, but I never really got into the whole "religion" thing. Myself, I am an Atheist. I don't believe in a greater force creating us. But, I'm very interested in Buddhism. If I had to choose, I would be a Buddhist because it's the religion that makes the most sense to me :P
Buddhism's cool, I like Buddhism. It doesn't come out with bullshit like "ZOMG there is a God and he made everything and you must worship him" etc etc. It's more of a philosophy than a religion. If I had to choose a religion it would be Buddhism, it is the most sensible and peaceful of the major religions.

[Azunite]

Well Islam...
I don't know where to start. Sometimes religion feels stupid for me because I believe in Supreme Force of Science and Nature. When there was an absurd thing in nature, they said "That is will of God." Most of Scientific inventions were banned by chuch. Anyway.
Word "Islam" means "Peace" and "Surrendering yourself to One Deity" or something.
According to Islam, Christianity was modified ( What we know is pork and wine was still banned in Christianity but Romans were so fond of them so they changed it ) and there are so many books people don't know which is true.
Religion wars are so stupid. And people calling Muslims terrorists.
In turkey, there are no suicide bombers in fact, we fight with Terrorist Kurds so you people don't try to call Islam "Terrorism". it's Arabs who are bombers lol.
I usually search for religion stuff on net and Christians who read Kur'an-ı Kerim (Qor'an) understand that people who act us bad are wrong.
Anywya I am not a priest but people, IMO, religion is only individual. It only helps yourslef, but it stages war between nations. How many lives were lost because of some religion fight?
There was an article about Prophets and it said "Whenever prophets came to earth, scientific development dropped on zero."
What are your opinions about general Religions? Science or Religion?

[Magus]

Word "Islam" means "Peace" and "Surrendering yourself to One Deity" or something.

Islam does not means "Peace", it means "Surrendering oneself to anyone".


And people calling Muslims terrorists.
In turkey, there are no suicide bombers in fact, we fight with Terrorist Kurds so you people don't try to call Islam "Terrorism". it's Arabs who are bombers lol.

Unfortunately, there are people still call Muslims as Terrorist

One thing: Kurds are not Terrorist. Kurds are fighting for independence.

You think the one who blow himself in an Iranian Mosque was a terrorist? Maybe, but they are fighting for Liberation.


I usually search for religion stuff on net and Christians who read Kur'an-ı Kerim (Qor'an) understand that people who act us bad are wrong.

That's funny. Whenever I google "Islam", I get Prophetofdoom(Which is full of bullshit), answering-Islam, ThereligionofPeace, faithfreedom and etc.


There was an article about Prophets and it said "Whenever prophets came to earth, scientific development dropped on zero."
What are your opinions about general Religions? Science or Religion?

Even if Mohammad was a plagiarist, I think he was the smartest of the bunch as he inserted some scientific stuff in Qu'ran(Which they call it as Miracle of Qu'ran), which are true, but some pompous idiots say that they have 'debunked' those "miracles".

[Azunite]

Kurds don't fight for independence. We have tens of nations in our country and the only people who dress as villagers then kill our soldiers in nights, place ambushes and mines all over the roads are Kurds.
I am not saying Kurds are bad, my grandfather was a Kurd and he made two schools in a Turkish city in east and helped children to educate.

And when you google, don't search for some bullshit websites over proffessional scientist article.
Muhammed didn't insert anything, Muhammed completely wrote on Qur-an what god said. And god just put things which would help people understand basic thing ( pre-Islamic Arabia had almost zero science, full of slavery and people having 200 wives )

Oh and : How come someone blows himself up in a mosque is not a terrorist but a liberator ?

[Magus]

Kurds don't fight for independence. We have tens of nations in our country and the only people who dress as villagers then kill our soldiers in nights, place ambushes and mines all over the roads are Kurds.

Yes, tell that to Iran, Iraq, and Syria too. Because they are also against the Independence of the Kurd people.

And when you google, don't search for some bullshit websites over proffessional scientist article.

True, religion is bullshit. Guess what? I just became a naturalist.


Muhammed didn't insert anything, Muhammed completely wrote on Qur-an what god said. And god just put things which would help people understand basic thing ( pre-Islamic Arabia had almost zero science, full of slavery and people having 200 wives )

Yes, that's what Muslims "believes" in.

And Islam did not denounce Slavery.

Prophet Mohammed himself had several slaves and concubines. There are maybe limits to how many wife you may have, but that does not apply to how many women slave you can have.

How come someone blows himself up in a mosque is not a terrorist but a liberator ?

Because he was fighting for freedom and not because an ancient doctrine tells him so.

[Azunite]

Lol, you are not a Muslim yet you think you know better than me. Muhammed never had slaves or concubines ,he didn't even wanted people to stand up when he entered the room or something.
First muslims were slaves for your informaiton.
Next time don't research from fuckislamchristftw.com

[Magus]

Lol, you are not a Muslim yet you think you know better than me. Muhammed never had slaves or concubines ,he didn't even wanted people to stand up when he entered the room or something.
First muslims were slaves for your informaiton.
Next time don't research from fuckislamchristftw.com

You don't need to be a Mathematician to know about 2+2. And yes, I know about Islam very well more than any other religion.

First muslims weren't slaves. They were Muhammad's early wife, Cousin, Uncle and Best Friend.

No, I never went to that site, that site is banned by my ISP.

And yes, Muhammad had slaves and concubines. Maybe he didn't want people to stand up when he entered the room or something, but that does not change the fact that he did not banned Slavery.

If he did, then can you please link me some articles which says that Prophet Muhammad(Peace and blessing be upon him) Banned Slavery.

[Azunite]

I know first Muslims were his uncle and his wife etc. But then when Islam was spread across Mecca, slaves accepted Islam since there wasn't slavery inside Islam.
I don't know any resources YET, as we learn religion from our religion lesson book ( it is a book, not Qur-an ) but If i can find some resources I will be happy to send you

[Azunite]

What I found from some Turkish resources is that it was banned to buy or sell people (slaves) but there were still prisoners of war, which you can count as "slaves".
But many resources have many ideas. I dont trust wikipedia or any other website actually, as everyone can edit anything and can write anything they want

[Magus]

What I found from some Turkish resources is that it was banned to buy or sell people (slaves) but there were still prisoners of war, which you can count as "slaves".
But many resources have many ideas. I dont trust wikipedia or any other website actually, as everyone can edit anything and can write anything they want

Wikipedia is almost accurate and always monitored.

As you can see, as Muslim waged war with others, they held captives and these captives were parted as slaves. True.

So you see, Islam did not banned Slavery.

[Azunite]

Prisoners of war and slaves may be diffrent things at one position i believe. Maybe because one will kill you if you don't kill it, and there is only one option left if you don't wish to kill.
Anyway, still I don't trust wikipedia and I think we both know there are much greater sources than wikipedia about any subject.
I don't want to continue talking about Islam. I think you said you are an atheist or something right?

[Magus]

Prisoners of war and slaves may be diffrent things at one position i believe. Maybe because one will kill you if you don't kill it, and there is only one option left if you don't wish to kill.

Why would we kill a captive? They are captive, and they won't kill us.


I don't want to continue talking about Islam. I think you said you are an atheist or something right?

Awe, I want to talk about Islam with Muslims rather than anyone else.

No, I am not an atheist. I said I am a naturalist, at worst I am an Agnostic theist. I am, by culture, a Muslim. :yes:

[Azunite]

Captives = Prisoners of War

[Disco Jones]

Because he was fighting for freedom and not because an ancient doctrine tells him so.

Terrorism is not exclusively motivated by religion. Suicide bombing a mosque is a terrorist tactic, it uses terror as a means to an end.

[Azunite]

Agreed.

[MattHolyman41]

I'm an Atheist and I will never change my world view again.
Religion is USELESS now. We have law systems to control crime and people's behavior.
And I will keep this sober opinion till I die (assuming the organic death of my body is the end of my consciousness). Science is the future! Science is making far more sense than any religion. Period.

[Magus]

Captives = Prisoners of War

That's why I used Captives, and not P.O.W. - I don't see why killing them is a benefit.

Terrorism is not exclusively motivated by religion. Suicide bombing a mosque is a terrorist tactic, it uses terror as a means to an end.

You can say that. Before 9/11, terrorists were plainly people who wants change in the government's policy and the like. But now, the word is juxtaposed with Muslims, unfortunately.

[Azunite]

juxtaposed ? ( sorry i couldn't find the proper definition on the net )

[Magus]

juxtaposed ?

CLICK ME! (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/juxtaposed). :D

F-yEu-b_YD0

[Azunite]

Oh I also found this meaning but I don't understand what is the meaning at your sentence ?

[Magus]

Oh I also found this meaning but I don't understand what is the meaning at your sentence ?

What I meant is that, there are people who often associate Terrorism to Islam because Islam teaches(they think like that)hatred, misogyny and bigotry.

Oh, and a lot often they are Christians that do this. The negative depiction, newspaper; they were all Christians. Strike ------------

[deadpie]

What I meant is that, there are people who often associate Terrorism to Islam because Islam teaches(they think like that)hatred, misogyny and bigotry.

Oh, and a lot often they are Christians that do this. The negative depiction, newspaper; they were all Christians. Strike ------------

The Ku Klux Klan would be considered a Christian group of terrorism in my opinion. Army Of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_God_(USA)) would go a little far with trying to stop abortion (People like Scott Reoder who shot a physician trying to do his job).

Lord's Resistance Army is a terrorist group still active and has been involved in taking hostages and murder.

There's many groups like this but I only know about seven or eight of the large ones.

People killing in the name of God.

So before people go all batshit insane over a couple islamic terrorists, look at other religions too.

As to say, look at the Anti Abortion Violence that has been going on to this date. Mainly all Christians. When I look at that, I come to think that the progress of this planet is spiraling down in a very fast pace.

[The Batman]

The Ku Klux Klan would be considered a Christian group of terrorism in my opinion. Army Of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_God_(USA)) would go a little far with trying to stop abortion (People like Scott Reoder who shot a physician trying to do his job).

Lord's Resistance Army is a terrorist group still active and has been involved in taking hostages and murder.

There's many groups like this but I only know about seven or eight of the large ones.

People killing in the name of God.

So before people go all batshit insane over a couple islamic terrorists, look at other religions too.

As to say, look at the Anti Abortion Violence that has been going on to this date. Mainly all Christians. When I look at that, I come to think that the progress of this planet is spiraling down in a very fast pace.

I agree with you on that one. It's mainly stupid people trying to find an excuse to be violent though IMO

[deadpie]

Here's a simpler version of something I posted a long time ago in this thread. This proves that the bible isn't as peaceful great happiness moral lessons as people think it is -


Who should we kill?
- Homosexuals (Lev.20: 13. Rom.1:26-32)
- Adulterers (Lev.20:10. Deut.22:22)
- Disobedient Children (Deut.21:20-21, Lev.20:9, Exod.21:15)
- Women who are not virgins on /heir wedding night (Deut.22: 13-21)
- All non-Christians (parable told by Christ - Luke 19:27)
- Those accused of wickedness by at least two people (Deut.17:2-7)
- Anyone who works on the Sabbath (Exod.35:2-3, Num.15~32-6)
(Not even to kindle a fire and no exclusion for ambulance drivers)

Women
- It is shameful for a woman to speak in church (1Cor.14:34-5)
- A man must OK his wife’s words if they are to have force (Num.30:8)
- A woman must not teach or hold authority over a man (1Tim. 2:12)
- Lot saves the messengers from the men of Sodom by offering up his virgin daughters to “do to them as you please” (Gen.19:8)
- “… kill every boy, and kill every woman who has had sexual intercourse with a man. But all the young women who have not had sexual intercourse with a man will be yours.” (32,000 young women were made slaves.) (Moses - Num.31:17-8)

Slavery
- God supports slavery (Lev.25:44-6, Exod.21:2-8, Eph.6:5, CoI.3:22)
- Instructions on how to sell your daughter as a slave (Exod.21:7-8)
- When to give your slaves severe or light beatings (Luke.12:42-8)
- OK to beat slaves only if they don’t die within two days (Exod.21:20-1)
- How to mark your slave: drive an awl through its ear (Deut 15:17)

Marriage
- It’s best if all people remain unmarried. Marriage is a lesser-of-two-evils compromise with Christians too weak to resist their sexual urges, “for it is better to marry than to bum.” (Paul - 1Cor.7:1-2, 8-9, 25-6, 38)
- The rapist of an unwed woman must buy her and make her his wife (Deut.22:28-9)
(If applied consistently, a rapist has to not only buy his victim and make her his wife, but then subsequently kill her for not being a virgin on the wedding night)

Justice
- If a man suspects his wife of cheating he can serve her a cursed drink; if she becomes deformed then that proves her guilt (Num.5: 12-31)
- 42 children killed by bears for calling a prophet ‘baldy’ (2King.2:23-4)
- OK to beat your children with a rod - it won’t kill them (Prov.23:13-4)
Do the Old Testament laws still apply?
- Every “jot” and “tittle” (Christ – Matt.5:17-9)

[Azunite]

Ambitious men changed the Bible so much they modified for them.
Some psychos say Jesus is god lol

[Magus]

Ambitious men changed the Bible so much they modified for them.
Some psychos say Jesus is god lol

Well, that's what Christianity is about. It is rare to find a non-Trinitarian Christians and or Christian Atheists.

[Azunite]

However, it is prooven that Kur-an didn't change at all.

[wingman3434]

im a catholic and allways have been even though religion isnt really big in my family

[willrod]

I was raised Catholic, and though I don't agree with some of the church's teachings, specifically about homosexuality and their views on birth control, as well as the fact that they covered up sexual abuse, I still consider myself Catholic. I mean, the church teaches many positive things, such as charity, economic equality (perfect since I'm also a socialist!), is anti-racist, promotes strong family ties, and is generally tolerant of other religions. Now, this might not have historically been the case (i.e. the Spanish Inquisition), but growing up, those were the values I've been taught. People often look at me weird when I say that I'm gay and a Christian, but I feel that both of those can definitely go hand in hand! I feel there was a reason God made me gay, and I believe that it's perfectly ok.

[Apparitions]

economic equality (perfect since I'm also a socialist!), is anti-racist.
Wrong. Example: one of the Pope's (spit) cardinals compared Great Britain, a developed, powerful, internationally respected nation that is a permanent member of the UN Security Council, to a third world country. This isn't just unbelievably offensive to Britain, it's racist IMHO and shows the true colours of the Catholic Church's leaders.

Also, socialism is a plague that must die. I've seen it damn near destroy (via bankruptcy) my country.

[Sith Lord 13]

Wrong. Example: one of the Pope's (spit) cardinals compared Great Britain, a developed, powerful, internationally respected nation that is a permanent member of the UN Security Council, to a third world country. This isn't just unbelievably offensive to Britain, it's racist IMHO and shows the true colours of the Catholic Church's leaders.

When? Where? Quote? Source?

[Apparitions]

When? Where? Quote? Source?
Here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/sep/20/third-world-britain-sartre-mandela), here (http://www.theage.com.au/world/cardinal-ditched-after-criticising-britain-20100916-15el0.html) and here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11325699)

Among other articles of course.

[Sith Lord 13]

Here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/sep/20/third-world-britain-sartre-mandela), here (http://www.theage.com.au/world/cardinal-ditched-after-criticising-britain-20100916-15el0.html) and here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11325699)

Among other articles of course.

So you're condemning him for repeating the same thing one of your own newspapers said? The aid compared landing at a specific airport to landing in a third world country, just as this British news article did a year earlier. (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/davidhughes/8091087/Heathrows_a_third_world_airport_that_wont_cope_with_a_third_runway/)

[Apparitions]

So you're condemning him for repeating the same thing one of your own newspapers said? The aid compared landing at a specific airport to landing in a third world country, just as this British news article did a year earlier. (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/davidhughes/8091087/Heathrows_a_third_world_airport_that_wont_cope_with_a_third_runway/)
Yes.

[Sith Lord 13]

Yes.

Why?

[Syvelocin]

Other: I'm a Neopagan. Well, that's what I say when it isn't worth my time to explain what my religion is, since the Christian church has been lying about it since the name was coined, now most of the general public thinks they know what we're about, but in reality we're the exact opposite.

So, that being said, I'm a Satanist. Before you judge, do your research on Anton LaVey's Satanism. I'm not really going to delve into it too far since I've explained it hundreds of times, but I'll leave you with this: Satanism is atheistic.

[Apparitions]

So, that being said, I'm a Satanist. Before you judge, do your research on Anton LaVey's Satanism. I'm not really going to delve into it too far since I've explained it hundreds of times, but I'll leave you with this: Satanism is atheistic.
I don't really like LaVeyan Satanism, IMHO it's quite pretentious. I hate it when people think that Satanists worship the devil etc though.

[deadpie]

I don't really like LaVeyan Satanism, IMHO it's quite pretentious. I hate it when people think that Satanists worship the devil etc though.

The thing about LaVeyan's philosophy is that it proves most of the Satanic stereotypes wrong.

Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
When in another’s home, show them respect or else do not go there.
If a guest in your home annoys you, treat them cruelly and without mercy.
Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
Do not take that which does not belong to you, unless it is a burden to the other person and they cry out to be relieved.
Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
Do not harm young children.
Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask them to stop. If they do not stop, destroy them.

[Peace God]

I hate it when people think that Satanists worship the devil etc though.

lol well it doesnt really help when its called satanism

[Apparitions]

lol well it doesnt really help when its called satanism

:D Yeah I know but you would think people would maybe, just maybe try and find out what it is about. Genuine question to Satanists and people that know about LaVeyan Satanism: why is it actually called Satanism?

[red_dragon]

I am a Born-again Christian. I believe that because of Adam and Eve's original sin we are all born sinners. We are unfit for Heaven and because God loves us he sent his Son to die on the Cross. The Lord Jesus came to earth and was died on the cross of Calvary for us and by his blood our sins are washed away. By his resurection we can be saved and go to Heaven. By making Jesus our personal saviour I will be in Heaven. We must come to him and make a personal understanding that it was for ME! and there is no other way I could go to heaven because I'm a guilty sinner.

"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again" John 3:7

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

[Apparitions]

I am a Born-again Christian. I believe that because of Adam and Eve's original sin we are all born sinners. We are unfit for Heaven and because God loves us he sent his Son to die on the Cross. The Lord Jesus came to earth and was died on the cross of Calvary for us and by his blood our sins are washed away. By his resurection we can be saved and go to Heaven. By making Jesus our personal saviour I will be in Heaven. We must come to him and make a personal understanding that it was for ME! and there is no other way I could go to heaven because I'm a guilty sinner.

"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again" John 3:7

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9
And you know all of this rubbish how exactly?

EDIT: Also, it would be worth noting that randomly using quotes from the Bible doesn't really go down that well on this thread.

[Perseus]

EDIT: Also, it would be worth noting that randomly using quotes from the Bible doesn't really go down that well on this thread.

Uh, why does it matter? He was trying to prove his point. And don't give me that bullcrap that I know you will give me because I don't need you to tell me what I already know.

[deadpie]

:D Yeah I know but you would think people would maybe, just maybe try and find out what it is about. Genuine question to Satanists and people that know about LaVeyan Satanism: why is it actually called Satanism?

Nobody realizes that Satan is actually used as a metaphor in The Satanic Bible. You want to guess why? Nobody fucking reads it.

[Magus]

Nobody realizes that Satan is actually used as a metaphor in The Satanic Bible. You want to guess why? Nobody fucking reads it.

People reads this book.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c8/1988_Salman_Rushdie_The_Satanic_Verses.jpg

No Metaphores here, this is the real stuff!!

[The Dark Lord]

I am a Born-again Christian. I believe that because of Adam and Eve's original sin we are all born sinners. We are unfit for Heaven and because God loves us he sent his Son to die on the Cross. The Lord Jesus came to earth and was died on the cross of Calvary for us and by his blood our sins are washed away. By his resurection we can be saved and go to Heaven. By making Jesus our personal saviour I will be in Heaven. We must come to him and make a personal understanding that it was for ME! and there is no other way I could go to heaven because I'm a guilty sinner.

"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again" John 3:7

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

Brainwashed much?

[The Batman]

Brainwashed much?

Calling someone brainwashed isn't considered debating.

[DarkHorses]

I guess I could be consider agnostic, because I think there might be a God but I'm not completely positive. I don't think God's existence can be proven. And I also believe in science. I believe religion explains the reason that the world was created, but shouldn't try to explain how, because they are unable to.

Other religions are insulted because people fear that their religion is wrong. When someone else has a different belief they feel threatened, because deep down it makes them question if theirs is the right one. That causes hate of other religions. Instead of trying to constantly prove your religion as the right one we should acknowledge that all religions believe in God. God is what is important, more important than the religion that God teaches.

[Whisper]

Atheist
But I'm fascinated by Buddhism
http://ic2.pbase.com/o2/50/855450/1/123315147.Aq3P6GPC.14.JPG
little buddha ~ David Lazar

[Syvelocin]

:D Yeah I know but you would think people would maybe, just maybe try and find out what it is about. Genuine question to Satanists and people that know about LaVeyan Satanism: why is it actually called Satanism?

I wish more people were like that actually :/ I love learning about religions, whether I believe in them or not. Whenever I meet someone of a different religion, I usually ask if they'd just talk to me for a while about it, if they're willing. Though I've only had one person ask this of me :P

LaVey explains it to be mainly because it scares away the people that he wouldn't want to be a part of the religion. If we called it something more socially accepted, and everyone knew about our values, it would be a lot more crowded and there would be more... invalid Satanists

In the introduction to The Satanic Bible, Magus Gilmore says the following:

"The identification that Satanists have with Satan is an intentional barrier against those who cannot resonate with this sinister archetype."

I also see it as an identification with the original definition of Satan, the "opposer" or "adversary," which really isn't anything evil unless he's the adversary of God. A Satanist is kind of the adversary of Christianity, or religion in general rather.

[phily08]

Im a cahtolic-jew,i see that god loves us all.People are all crazy when it comes to religion,simply because they cant understand it.