Religion

[The Batman]

Still your entire argument is based on religious people committing these crimes so unless you can prove to me that they were religious at the time of it then I'm not convinced.

[drumir93]

If your not convinced then you simply can not follow facts. You know how incredibly unlikely it is that so many just suddenly found the grace of god (or claim to)while moping in their prison cells. You're just trying to create your own little loopholes to make it appear as if you won the argument.
If your going to continually disregard all I present without giving solid facts to the opposite then you're just unworthy of of being debated with.
I'm done.

[The Batman]

If your not convinced then you simply can not follow facts. You know how incredibly unlikely it is that so many just suddenly found the grace of god (or claim to)while moping in their prison cells. You're just trying to create your own little loopholes to make it appear as if you won the argument.
If your going to continually disregard all I present without giving solid facts to the opposite then you're just unworthy of of being debated with.
I'm done.

I read your sources and none of them answered my questions and really quitting a debate instead of standing and fighting for your position is not the way to do it mate prove me wrong and prove yourself right.

[drumir93]

As far as I'm concerned I did. Even so, I have nothing to prove to you and it's getting late.
The reason I entered the discussion was for my own "intellectual stimulation."
What you think is really of no importance to me.

[Death]

What you think is really of no importance to me.

Are you saying that because of the responses, you now don't care or are you saying that you never cared?

Anyway, from my experience, suicide bombers (a lot of them) only suicide bomb because they believe that by doing so, they will be bringing them to their heaven and the psychopath him/herself will grant access to a special martyr's heaven. This is the common belief with suicide bombers. Has they not have been religious, would they have commited mass murder?

Now, I'm not saying that you don't get atheist criminals or good religious people but the above is something that has been known to come from religious extremists.

If anyone would like to correct me however and provide me with an external link which suggest otherwise, I'd welcome it.

[The Batman]

The keyword in that is not religious but extremists. Which you find everywhere when something no matter what becomes that obsessive it's never safe.

[derkderpderp]

Im a Sunni Muslim,and i must admit, theres a lot i dont agree with in my forced religion,theres a lot of contradictions etc.its all quite confusing to me.

However i have a question thats been bugging me 4 ages now-
Why are all the Muslims across the globe judged because of the stupid,hate bred actions of a damn terrorist group?
And another thing-do we need religion,or is it just a way of controlling people through fear of eternal damnation etc?

[Poetic Folly]

You didn't even read the whole thing.
It goes beyond Japan.

Also, this is a bit old, but keep in mind that at the time atheist made up about 14% of the US.
It's now at about 16-20%

http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

The Federal Bureau of Prisons does have statistics on religious
affiliations of inmates. The following are total number of
inmates per religion category:

Response Number %
---------------------------- --------
Catholic 29267 39.164%
Protestant 26162 35.008%
Muslim 5435 7.273%
American Indian 2408 3.222%
Nation 1734 2.320%
Rasta 1485 1.987%
Jewish 1325 1.773%
Church of Christ 1303 1.744%
Pentecostal 1093 1.463%
Moorish 1066 1.426%
Buddhist 882 1.180%
Jehovah Witness 665 0.890%
Adventist 621 0.831%
Orthodox 375 0.502%
Mormon 298 0.399%
Scientology 190 0.254%
Atheist 156 0.209%


Say there's 100 catholics , 70 jews, and 15 atheist.

so there is 25 catholics 16 jews and atheist in this jail. So what's the percentage?

50% catholic of the people in this jail are catholic.
31.25% jewish of the people in this jail are jewish.
18.75% atheist. of the people in this jail are atheist.


I would assume that these catholics and jews are immoral, because why not just go ahead and say they aren't even religious. That's why the killed, right? Why would a devout person commit a sin?

Let's look at this another way.

75% of catholics aren't in jail
77% of jews aren't in jail
40% of atheists aren't in jail

Not only are you percentages biased but they do not account for the amount of the population they are.

[Death]

And another thing-do we need religion,or is it just a way of controlling people through fear of eternal damnation etc?

We certainly don't need religion, but there isn't anything wrong with having one, well, so long as you're not an extremist (like those suicide bombers) or a preacher. As for whether or not it's a way of controlling people, looking at the bible (not just the old testament), it would look like it is. I mean seriously, Jesus said that men should tear their eyes out if they are making them have feelings for other women (not their wife) and that if they didn't, even if they did not commit adultery, they would burn in hell. Now that is somthing (in the new testament as well) that is quite simply disgusting, and domineering.

[Sage]

We certainly don't need religion, but there isn't anything wrong with having one, well, so long as you're not an extremist (like those suicide bombers) or a preacher.

What's wrong with preachers? Atheists preach all the time.

[drumir93]

Say there's 100 catholics , 70 jews, and 15 atheist.

so there is 25 catholics 16 jews and atheist in this jail. So what's the percentage?

50% catholic of the people in this jail are catholic.
31.25% jewish of the people in this jail are jewish.
18.75% atheist. of the people in this jail are atheist.


I would assume that these catholics and jews are immoral, because why not just go ahead and say they aren't even religious. That's why the killed, right? Why would a devout person commit a sin?

Let's look at this another way.

75% of catholics aren't in jail
77% of jews aren't in jail
40% of atheists aren't in jail

Not only are you percentages biased but they do not account for the amount of the population they are.

Well, the thing with that is that those simply aren't the numbers.
You just made those up so they hold no weight in reality.

If about 16% of Adult Americans are Atheist/Agnostic and only .2% of the people in jail are that's a difference of 15.8

If about 78% are Christian (I got that off Wikipedia so take that how ever you like) and the 76% or so that I counted in that chart are Christian, then that's a difference of only 2%. Therefore, you are statistically more likely to go to prison if you are Christian.

My opinions are biased. The statistics are not.

[Poetic Folly]

Well, the thing with that is that those simply aren't the numbers.
You just made those up so they hold no weight in reality.

If about 16% of Adult Americans are Atheist/Agnostic and only .2% of the people in jail are that's a difference of 15.8

If about 78% are Christian (I got that off Wikipedia so take that how ever you like) and the 76% or so that I counted in that chart are Christian, then that's a difference of only 2%. Therefore, you are statistically more likely to go to prison if you are Christian.

My opinions are biased. The statistics are not.

I'm talking about atheists, not atheists and agnostic.

You are also misreading your statistics. First of all, you can't take away the percent of christians in a jail and the percent in the world. You have to find the actual amount and subtract it from the actual amount (e.g 50 christians in jail 10000 in the world)
also,
http://barna.org/barna-update/article/16-teensnext-gen/25-young-adults-and-liberals-struggle-with-morality

[Sage]

also,
http://barna.org/barna-update/article/16-teensnext-gen/25-young-adults-and-liberals-struggle-with-morality

TL;DR VERSION:

People who are not socially conservative and/or christian are less likely to behave in a manner that is typical of those socially conservative and/or christrian!

[drumir93]

I'm talking about atheists, not atheists and agnostic.

You are also misreading your statistics. First of all, you can't take away the percent of christians in a jail and the percent in the world. You have to find the actual amount and subtract it from the actual amount (e.g 50 christians in jail 10000 in the world)


This is only in the U.S.
And why can't I count agnostic? I'm comparing the religious to the irreligious, so I think it's only fitting.

And if that's the way you think this should be done, then do it yourself and actually try to prove me wrong.

[Poetic Folly]

TL;DR VERSION:

People who are not socially conservative and/or christian are less likely to behave in a manner that is typical of those socially conservative and/or christrian!

Yup.
I was waiting for someone to disagree though.
Another example:
'Left-handers comprise almost 20% of the mentally retarded population and 28% of the severely and profoundly mentally retarded population.'
It might just be a coincidence.
Another reason:
Just because someone says they're christian doesn't mean they are religious.
Also, why are they in jail? I think murder is a lot worse then say possession of weed or some BS like that.

[The Batman]

Yup.
I was waiting for someone to disagree though.
Another example:
'Left-handers comprise almost 20% of the mentally retarded population and 28% of the severely and profoundly mentally retarded population.'
It might just be a coincidence.
Another reason:
Just because someone says they're christian doesn't mean they are religious.

Exactly I was trying to say that but could not think of the way to word it.

[Poetic Folly]

And if that's the way you think this should be done, then do it yourself and actually try to prove me wrong.
I don't have to the time or patience to prove something that takes only a little common sense to figure out :rolleyes:

[drumir93]

Well, the fact of the matter is, everything I found in regards to this follows a pattern.
Everything I found is non-theoretical and your entire argument is.

Never did I say that because I find religion silly, those with one are savage murderers and rapists. Rather, I put in some effort and discovered the undeniable and consistent facts that there is indeed a correlation between religion and crime. Whether that means if someone has a religion they are more likely to murder or rape , or just do the "big stuff" like suicide bombings, major assassinations, mutilation and so on, I can't say.

-And also, If there where such statistic about handedness and retardation , there might just be a biological reason behind it. At least I would bother to try to find out, rather than being like you and just dismissing it because it doesn't sound pleasant.

[Poetic Folly]

-And also, If there where such statistic about handedness and retardation , there might just be a biological reason behind it. At least I would bother to try to find out, rather than being like you and just dismissing it because it doesn't sound pleasant.

I had to study that for debate team....

[drumir93]

That's lovely.

[Poetic Folly]

That's lovely.

rather than being like you and just dismissing it because it doesn't sound pleasant..
:rolleyes:

[drumir93]

I didn't dismiss anything.
You said you studied that in debate. Good for you.
I studied it right now and came to a different conclusion. My conclusion was there might be a connection but I don't know, so lets look further in to it.
Yours was there might be a connection but I don't know, so lets just say there probably isn't and move on.
At least that's how I understand it based the context of this thread.

[deadpie]

There was a debate me and my friends held at school a while back that went:
Is it alright for a atheist family to have a child and not take him/her to church or would that be considired wrong?

I don't see a problem with it. I've heard of children being put in bible study and classes at age four. I feel like religion is such a subject matter to difficult for someone at such a young age.
I mean, it's hard for me to even explain how to work a microwave with my six year old sister.

[Sage]

I feel like religion is such a subject matter to difficult for someone at such a young age.


I think we really underestimate kids. They could easily have a basic grasp of what religion is about if they are taught about it from a neutral standpoint.

[deadpie]

I think we really underestimate kids. They could easily have a basic grasp of what religion is about if they are taught about it from a neutral standpoint.
All the morals of it and philosophy to go allong with religion also?

[sebbie]

Personally when it comes to religion I think it is something that we should make up our minds on for ourselves. Religious classes in my opinion should just educate not persuade people to join a faith.

[drumir93]

Personally when it comes to religion I think it is something that we should make up our minds on for ourselves. Religious classes in my opinion should just educate not persuade people to join a faith.

I agree, And those atheist summer camps that have apparently sprouted up are just as bad.

[suture11]

I voted Agnosticism, but that is not entirely true. I am very Existentialistic, but I use Agnostic qualities to reform my Existential values and ideas.

[DaScM]

I voted Christian (Im Catholic) since that's my religion since birth. But for me, Religion is just a way to control our emotions, to live normally in peace and order.

I do believe in God, because where did all these things, the universe galaxies, etc. Came from?

But in some ways, I don't believe in it, especially on the Old Testament of the Bible.

It is mentioned on one book and another that God is coming down to earth riding a Chariot or some sort of vehicle.
But God shad to be Almighty, and he doesn't need such things to visit humans.

My Conclusion about that, they're ET's

It's weird that people are praising a false-god at that time, thinking that whoever come down from the Sky is a god. Most religions around the world has this fact.



I have this kind of belief since I was 13.

Any comments about this are welcome.

[Lily of the Valley]

I voted Christian (Im Catholic) since that's my religion since birth. But for me, Religion is just a way to control our emotions, to live normally in peace and order.

I do believe in God, because where did all these things, the universe galaxies, etc. Came from?

But in some ways, I don't believe in it, especially on the Old Testament of the Bible.

It is mentioned on one book and another that God is coming down to earth riding a Chariot or some sort of vehicle.
But God shad to be Almighty, and he doesn't need such things to visit humans.

My Conclusion about that, they're ET's

It's weird that people are praising a false-god at that time, thinking that whoever come down from the Sky is a god. Most religions around the world has this fact.



I have this kind of belief since I was 13.

Any comments about this are welcome.That post made about 5% sense. A little more than none, but barely any.

~Maggot

[Outofc]

I was a Christian until this year. Basically, I believe in a God, but I do not accept the belief that I have to spend my life serving Him, or at least follow all of these rules and guidelines that religion is so known for. Also, I don't think that God cares about us as much as people say. Sorry, but that's what I think. How can God let so many innocent people die in such horrible ways? How can such tragedy's happen, if he really "loves" us more then anything? Religion seems more like a ploy to get people to behave then it does a serious thing. I'm still undecided, but for now, I don't feel that I should worship a said God. The Bible also has so many contradictions and strange things, mainly the old Testament. I just don't feel right following it. I'm still not completely decided, but this is what I currently think.

[Sage]

I was a Christian until this year. Basically, I believe in a God, but I do not accept the belief that I have to spend my life serving Him, or at least follow all of these rules and guidelines that religion is so known for. Also, I don't think that God cares about us as much as people say. Sorry, but that's what I think. How can God let so many innocent people die in such horrible ways? How can such tragedy's happen, if he really "loves" us more then anything? Religion seems more like a ploy to get people to behave then it does a serious thing. I'm still undecided, but for now, I don't feel that I should worship a said God. The Bible also has so many contradictions and strange things, mainly the old Testament. I just don't feel right following it. I'm still not completely decided, but this is what I currently think.

Welcome to deism.

[mrmcdonaldduck]

i really dont care what religion someone follows as long as they are a good person. if everyone was like that then the world would be much more peacful.

[skyekirstyn]

i believe in a "god" as to speak. but he is not one to be bowed down to and worshiped. i believer that in this life we are here for the quest of knowledge. and one man ("god") has a perfect knowledge. we are here to become "gods" ourselves. and my whole ideas revolve around one main principal: mind over matter.

[luciia96]

It's just my opinion, and I'm not trying to offend but... I think it is just stupid to believe that there is someone or something up there to help and support as, there are just too many bad things in the world... and believing that somebody in the past died and came back to life three days after is another stupid thing, we all know that a person who dies can't just wake up and go out of his tomb. And of course, it's impossible to get pregnant without sperm... so if ''virgin'' mary got pregnant it was because she did some1. Christianity is just a business, like everything else. Science can demostrate what they say but ...do christians? I don't think so, they just believe in an old book... and that's no evidence.

[deadpie]

I think it's interesting that after the bible, all of the crazy apeshit things that went on just stopped.
Kind of dissapointing.
I think The Bible was a good work of bizzaro fiction in my opinion.

[Raoul Duke]

I'm Christian. I don't have any specifics such a catholic, methodists, baptist, etc.. I'm not going to point fingers at anyone or tell what is right or wrong. Though i will ask if any who reads these posts if they are familiar with Martin Luther's 95 theses. It's a great example of how opinion conflicts with another. This became a major problem during the Reformation arround the time of the european renaissance. Many poeple started separting from the catholic church's belief and became protestant. putting it into todays propective,everyone has some different interpretation. It's complicted and during the reform the Catholic church excomunicated many people, during the reform thast is, if they dared to follow Luther's example. So then the Catholic church took action and formed the Council of Trent that stated that any interpretation other than the catholic faith made that individual a heretic. Today is much different from them, but it is clear to me that discrimnating and hating others of another faith to me is not Christian at all. Another thing that bothers me is how people stereotype that all Muslims are evil. Howerever there is no excuse for the tragedy on 9/11.

[Watchfulness]

I just don't find the idea of most religion to be reasonably acceptable.
Most does not even have proof of aspects of their belief.
For example, where is the proof that god exists? Without using the bible
and using common sense.

[Mental]

Personally when it comes to religion I think it is something that we should make up our minds on for ourselves. Religious classes in my opinion should just educate not persuade people to join a faith.
I agree. If I were running a school, I'd teach of different kinds of religions, alongside science of course. All taught to inform people, rather than just persuade them.

I'm totally agnostic, where I'd like to believe in a God/creator figure, but I'm not entirely convinced, but then again I'm not totally put off.. if that makes sense. I went to a Catholic primary school and then a Church of England secondary school, and I never really thought of God.. and then when I did, I thought it was a load of crap (I was atheist when I was 10-11 which was quite rare at my school), but recently, I'm quite open more open to the concept of God, as I feel that science won't and can't explain every single thing. If there is a God, it isn't a humanistic being that wants us to submit ourselves to it or follow a particular religion, it may be a kind of live force... I'm kinda leaning towards Deism in this sense, but I don't know that much about Deism, to be honest.

As for other peoples religious beliefs. Well I'm very Live And Let Live. I don't believe in forcing your religious beliefs (or lack of) down other peoples throats. Some Christians and Muslims are notorious for this, and so are atheists - they'll complain about some "bible basher" trying to convert them, yet are quick to say "GOD AINT REALZ LOL" to someone that does believe. It's classic hypocrisy.

[Asylum]

im wiccan. i've studied all beliefs. no religion is right..and no religion is wrong

[Asylum]

talk to me to find out my beliefs and why i believe them.. tooo long to post!!!

[ltimm]

Personnally, I'm an extreme atheist. If you're radical in your religion, then, most likely, I hate you. ALL religion is stupid, no matter judaism, islam, hinduism, etc. Religion was made thoudands of years a go to answer questions that man could not explain. Religion in the long run has only raised more questions than answers. It's statistically proven that countries with less religious people hace less crime, poverty, and violance. In America, 90% of the population in religious. Look where it's gotten us! In wars with other religious countries. It all needs to stop before something very serious happens. It's like a game of my-god-is-better-than-your-god (I think Richard Dawkins said that. He's a very wise man)

[The Batman]

Personnally, I'm an extreme atheist. If you're radical in your religion, then, most likely, I hate you. ALL religion is stupid, no matter judaism, islam, hinduism, etc. Religion was made thoudands of years a go to answer questions that man could not explain. Religion in the long run has only raised more questions than answers. It's statistically proven that countries with less religious people hace less crime, poverty, and violance. In America, 90% of the population in religious. Look where it's gotten us! In wars with other religious countries. It all needs to stop before something very serious happens. It's like a game of my-god-is-better-than-your-god (I think Richard Dawkins said that. He's a very wise man)

What makes being an extreme atheist better than being a radical religious person? IMO they are both horrible.

[ltimm]

yeah but I don'y go around trying to 'convert' people to atheism. I just debate atheism over religion and that's that.

[The Batman]

There's nothing wrong with religion it's the people. All of the problems in the world are caused by idiots with power.

[ltimm]

Can't disagree with you there

[Kahn]

Athiesm is the belief in no greater being which is pretty much the ultimate belief in Science. Science has solved everything, Science will solve everything. It is the answer. That is what people thought back then, that the greater being created everything, that he was the answer. Now I am not Atheist nor am I a religious person but I am in fact a believer of both.

In my years of Atheism, 2 years I have read a lot about it. When I was 11 The Big Bang Theory, etc. Things along the lines of that. Well then I read the bible. It seems Science cannot explain everything, just theorize. We do not know what actually happened when the Big Bang had happened. Did someone create it? Was there something before us? These questions no doubt showed up in debates. How is Science supposed to answer them? WITH A THEORY? I think not, sir. That is like saying, "What happened to the apple?"
"I ate it"
"Why?!"
"Because.. Well I don't know. It was just there and it kind of happened."

Stupid example yes, makes sense yes. I am saying that Science cannot explain why we just landed in the perfect spot for life why we are intelligent why we haven't melted.

Well the bible hasn't either. I don't believe there was a greater being, but I do believe that Jesus indeed did exist and his teachings were morphed from being friendly to thy neighbor to "All hail the Messiah". Jesus was the most influential person in history having his teaching still taught daily after 2000 years. His teachings were right, but he is not the son of god. Why does someone as intelligent as him have to be pictured as a demi-god. Why can't he be mortal. This is what I think. Dissect what you want from it.

[L]

yeah but I don'y go around trying to 'convert' people to atheism. I just debate atheism over religion and that's that.

i second that

[babyface]

I believe that there is/was 'something' that created us (obviously) however the human mind isn't powerful enough to comprehend exactly what this 'something' is. For example, many people think 'being open minded' about a possible God is to say "it could be female instead of male!" which is just hilarious. I personally think whatever happened before the big bang, when 'nothing' came into 'something', there must've been a chemical reaction somehow, like the 'God particle' etc.

Which bakes the question: 'how could something come from nothing'? Like I stated in the 'Life After Death' thread, it's a prime example of a paradox that no one can figure out. Not even a genius like Stephen Hawking.

So any stance on religious beliefs is fine, each to their own! But I wouldn't personally gamble my short life on religion.

[Mattasaur94]

I'm not really fussed over religion anymore.
You can either spend a life time worrying about it, spend your life devout to a god which you have faith in, or spend your life doing what you want, not caring about whether or not it'll land you in eternal damnation...

Personally, I was raised a Christian (Pentecostal), but I have an extremely open mind.
I'm not sure if I'd spend my life at a church, or at a temple... but... Yea...
/shrug
Not my problem.
The bible drops ALOT of hints that we were made in "gods" image... and that he creatred adam and eve... but what if that image was your MINDS and MENTAL capability? That would allow us to change over time and evolve over the other species. Making Science and Religion work together.

The Qu'ran (spelling?) is similar to the bible.
The bible spends alot of time flaming the devil.
The Satanic Bible spends a very small proportion talking about God...
Wicca is nice. I like its concept, same with Budhism, if you nice to people, people will be nice to you. works out well.

=)

[Ripplemagne]

De Ripplemagne is Nazarene.

[deadpie]

yeah but I don'y go around trying to 'convert' people to atheism. I just debate atheism over religion and that's that.

Why not? People come to other humans door's to convert other humans to different religions all the time. Why can't an atheist do the same thing? Christians don't find anything wrong with it, they think it'd save you from damnation in hell. If an atheist was raised that way and thought it'd help you understand things better by going to your door and converting you, would it be equally wrong, equally right, or worse?

Not a rant, more of a question by the way.

[ltimm]

See, alot of people don't like atheists because apparently we're 'immoral'! If I went to somebody's house, they'll probably tell me to eff off or something (although I know some people who would do that to Christians). Especially if that person is a Conservative, Religious, or a redneck!

[BUENA]

Im catholic. I often wonder if the human will will ever accept other concepts of religion. Could there be a one world religion? probably not in our lifetime. But just wonder, imagine how a modern society would appear if a one religion was established by the people and not by the state? T

here was this cool, amazing TV Show called KINGS. Sadly it got canceled because people did not follow through its new time change which caused low ratings.

KINGS is a TV show that depicts a MODERN DAY monarchy that has all the makings of an EPIC story, love, war, hope, courage, power and corruption. It could be ranked as one of the best TV shows such as HEROES, HOUSE ect. KINGS is loosely based on the biblical story of David and Goliath.
For Clips of this show, go to my thread http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=65621
.
.
.
http://www.matthewbrianlifebrands.com/blog/pic/kings.png

[ltimm]

. Could there be a one world religion? probably not in our lifetime. But just wonder, imagine how a modern society would appear if a one religion was established by the people and not by the state?
[/IMG]

The world is shit with the religions now and it would be shit with just one

[Leprachaun]

I'm a Catholic but I don't exactly follow my religion.

[Inconvenience]

i'm christian - orthodox.

but lately, i've kinda given up religion. what i mean is, i've started bealiving in god and god only, as a crater who stands upper then any religions.

[Sage]

Could there be a one world religion? probably not in our lifetime.

Never gonna happen. People will never all hold the exact same opinion on any issue at all.

[death1337]

i dont Believe in anything untill there is eviece

[Inconvenience]

i dont Believe in anything untill there is eviece

u're waiting for a miracle, which doesn't come to happen easily. it's all about faith. faith of invisible things

[Marcie]

I'm a Christian, I believe that Jesus was, in fact, the son of God and that he was Killed but came back alive.

[The Thinker]

Hello (First post by the way!), I'm Agnostic. There are two reasons why:

My first reason is: I have a deep interest in theology and use this particular belief to remain unbiased in my study. Contrary to the opinions that certain people have previously expressed in response to the poll, I believe that religion is a beautiful thing as it inspires art, the mind and above all: dialogue.

My second is: I see truths and faults in both theism and atheism (As atheism lacks a defined dogma, I refer to the scientific principles most characteristic of atheists, such as evolution). Expanding on evolution in particular; the evolution of the bat from some land-bound animal is difficult to imagine. If not for the questionable environmental pressures that might have caused the bat to so become what it is today (such as able to fly), the transitionary animal (for the lack of a better term) would have been outfitted with wings yet unable to fly and thus (most likely) would have become extinct through the process known as natural selection.

[Death]

I'm a Christian, I believe that Jesus was, in fact, the son of God and that he was Killed but came back alive.

That's fine but may I ask why you believe this? May I also ask what you think 'God' is?

[ltimm]

The is actully a very good point because different people have different opinions about god. Just like the old testament where god was unforgiving and smited people for no good reason or the new testament where god is loving and forgiving. I think religious people need to get their story straight.

[Death]

I agree, I think it's all too unclear. My class asked my RE teacher what she thought 'God' was and she hadn't a clue. Why believe in something when you don't even know what it is?

Same logic applied: I believe in Maka! What's Maka? I have no idea, but I believe in it!

[Marcie]

That's fine but may I ask why you believe this? May I also ask what you think 'God' is?

I have no idea what God is, aside from the creator of the universe.
I guess I believe as I do because I see it as the most infallible religion I have looked into. Also, I like the prospect of a life that's better than the one we're currently living, not to mention this religion seems to be the most Love oriented religion I've looked into.

[screamtobeheard]

I'm Catholic. I don't mind my religion, but over the board, holier than thou Catholics annoy me. I hate when people are intolerant of other religions. They have the right to believe what they want. And I don't really agree with a lot of the view in my religion...

[Death]

I have no idea what God is,

How can you believe in something if you have no idea what it is (even vaguely)?

Also, I like the prospect of a life that's better than the one we're currently living

Then why are you compelled to start your life here? Why can God not simply have Christians start life in Heaven where it's supposidly better?

this religion seems to be the most Love oriented religion I've looked into.

Have you read the old testament lately? You'll see that it can also be one of the most violent and bigoted of religions as well as the most love-oriented.

[Marcie]

How can you believe in something if you have no idea what it is (even vaguely)?
I can believe in it through faith, and some things I have seen with my own eyes, which (not to sound cleché) indicate a being of a higher power looking over us.


Then why are you compelled to start your life here? Why can God not simply have Christians start life in Heaven where it's supposidly better?
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure. The way I figure it, I think he wants to give us a chance for us to show our Love for him..


Have you read the old testament lately? You'll see that it can also be one of the most violent and bigoted of religions as well as the most love-oriented.
I have.
If I'm correct, fights were not instigated for no reason, they all and a good reason behind them.
Upon what do you base the statement that Christianity is "one of the most bigoted religions?"

[Michael92]

I'm a christian (protestant)

It's interesting the number of comments here blaming religion for terrible things (in many cases accurately) but few if any comment about the good things done by religion (early hospitals were run by the church, many good things done for the poor, ending of slavery was prompted initially by the church at least in the UK)

[Magus]

I chose others. No, I am not Zoroastrian.

I am monotheistic, it is that I am not following set of religious rules.

What is God, god is the cause and we are the effect. The beginner of the infinite loops of different possibilities.

God, to me is one entity. That is all. I don't care what other says, this is what I believe in.

[BeautifulDisaster]

I'm not sure what I believe in, I do believe in something, but just not sure anymore, close it comes to is Christianity.

I do believe in Heaven though, or... maybe I just hope for one.

[dahardy9]

.................

[Death]

I can believe in it through faith, and some things I have seen with my own eyes, which (not to sound cleché) indicate a being of a higher power looking over us.

You still have faith in something that you don't know what it is. I'm sorry, but that does sound slightly odd. But if you knew what he was, it wouldn't.

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure. The way I figure it, I think he wants to give us a chance for us to show our Love for him..

And we can't do that in Heaven? It's almost as if he's testing us. But why? Surely there's no wrong-doing or suffering in Heaven? Maybe Heaven doesn't even exist?


Upon what do you base the statement that Christianity is "one of the most bigoted religions?"

Many quotes from the old testament support this. For instance:

'If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, 'You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.' Zechariah 13:3 - Basically, 'false' (non-believing) prophets must die.

'If a man lies with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, they have both commited an abomination; they shall surely be put to death: their blood shall be upon them' Levitus 20:13 - Basically, kill all homosexuals.

There are many others, but I can't go including them all here.

[Perseus]

You still have faith in something that you don't know what it is. I'm sorry, but that does sound slightly odd. But if you knew what he was, it wouldn't.



And we can't do that in Heaven? It's almost as if he's testing us. But why? Surely there's no wrong-doing or suffering in Heaven? Maybe Heaven doesn't even exist?



Many quotes from the old testament support this. For instance:

'If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, 'You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.' Zechariah 13:3 - Basically, 'false' (non-believing) prophets must die.

'If a man lies with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, they have both commited an abomination; they shall surely be put to death: their blood shall be upon them' Levitus 20:13 - Basically, kill all homosexuals.

There are many others, but I can't go including them all here.

What I don't understand is why you think God is some super duper, lovey kinda guy who sees the best in people. Man was created with sin, so people will deviate from believeing in God and so forth. If I was God, I wouldn't be all nice and forgiving, to be honest. But what I'm trying to say is you think he's supposed to be super nice and whatnot, which is not the truth.

And since I've realized something since I'm not a nazi Christian like most Christians are, I've actually analyzed a certain verse. I remember you saying that you prayed to God and you wanted him to do something for you or something. And you were like, "if he doesn't answer me, he doesn't exist, right?" God doesn't intervene with this world. And that's fine if you don't want to believe in him, because you have all the proof and will to do so.

[deadpie]

God is nothing more than just a fucking concept.

[Death]

What I don't understand is why you think God is some super duper, lovey kinda guy who sees the best in people.

It's just that whenever I'm told about God (unless it's by friends or family who are atheist), they say that he is all so wonderful and nice, which actually amuses me because of their ignorance of the bible - and yet they preach it.

God is nothing more than just a fucking concept.

Well, since we can't see or hear him, I would agree.

[Magus]

Well, since we can't see or hear him, I would agree.

I can't see my cousin who lives in the other side of the world. He is the one my father praises as a good son a good nephew and what not. But I never saw him nor heard from him, so does that makes him unreal?
===========
Also

Well, it goes from one religion to another.

Iblees(The Djinn version of Lucifer/Which later branded as devil), after disobeying God from prostrating to Adam.

Out casted from heavens.
He later devoted in deluding humans hereafter. He wasn't the enemy of God, but he did deify him on the later courses.

So Sin didn't began with human. The devil is the one driving the people from their feet.

[Death]

I can't see my cousin who lives in the other side of the world. He is the one my father praises as a good son a good nephew and what not. But I never saw him nor heard from him, so does that makes him unreal?

Please don't even go there. You know that your cousin exists because your father has seen him in the past and have passed on his knowledge to you. No-one in their right mind has seen or heard God, ever. Sorry for being so blunt, but that argument seems so archaic.


So Sin didn't began with human. The devil is the one driving the people from their feet.

And yet in the bible, you see so much evil from God in the old testament. BTW, please don't ask for evidence since I've already provided it earlier.

[Magus]

Please don't even go there. You know that your cousin exists because your father has seen him in the past and have passed on his knowledge to you. No-one in their right mind has seen or heard God, ever. Sorry for being so blunt, but that argument seems so archaic.


So, Moses and Mohammed lier, and Jesus never existed? Oh! Right! I forget! They are schizophrenic and crazy old pedos!! My Bad! I am sorry, please! Forgive my ignorance Oh! great lord!


And yet in the bible, you see so much evil from God in the old testament. BTW, please don't ask for evidence since I've already provided it earlier.

Evil =/= Anger, not the same thing. We know what God did to the people. It is not evil, it is punishment to what ever thing they did.

Take Sodom for example, why on earth did God destroyed it, they disobeyed God's order, no?

If you, disobey your boss's order, you think you can go away with it? Assuming that boss really have bad temperament.

Yes, one of God's qualities is his anger.

+

You don't believe in God, why in earth you are pointing on why God did what he did in the old testament?

You want to proves something? Ok, make another thread if you please. This thread is to share people their own religious views of their current faith.

[Marcie]

You still have faith in something that you don't know what it is. I'm sorry, but that does sound slightly odd. But if you knew what he was, it wouldn't.
The definition of faith is, as Dictionary.com states; Faith is, "belief that is not based on proof."
If I knew what he was and saw him it would no longer be faith, right?


And we can't do that in Heaven? It's almost as if he's testing us. But why? Surely there's no wrong-doing or suffering in Heaven? Maybe Heaven doesn't even exist?
I think he is testing us.. There isn't any wrong doing in heaven.


Many quotes from the old testament support this. For instance:

'If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, 'You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.' Zechariah 13:3 - Basically, 'false' (non-believing) prophets must die.
However, if you look at that passage in context, you will find that it is speaking of the "end times" as in right before Jesus come back and all.


'If a man lies with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, they have both commited an abomination; they shall surely be put to death: their blood shall be upon them' Levitcus 20:13 - Basically, kill all homosexuals.
You must note that this was said before Jesus came, since then a god amount of things changed. After that it is said no where that all homosexuals should be killed.

[Death]

So, Moses and Mohammed lier, and Jesus never existed? Oh! Right! I forget! They are schizophrenic and crazy old pedos!! My Bad! I am sorry, please! Forgive my ignorance Oh! great lord!

Forgiven.

Evil =/= Anger, not the same thing. We know what God did to the people. It is not evil, it is punishment to what ever thing they did.

So homosexuals or transvestites or whatever should be killed? This isn't evil? You should flood the world when they don't follow you? This isn't evil? Sounds sadistic to me.

You don't believe in God, why in earth you are pointing on why God did what he did in the old testament?

As a point to be made in a debate. Simple as that.

You want to proves something? Ok, make another thread if you please. This thread is to share people their own religious views of their current faith.

It is also where people debate them as I've seen before. It appears to me that you don't like having your arguments contradicted.

[Death]

The definition of faith is, as Dictionary.com states; Faith is, "belief that is not based on proof."
If I knew what he was and saw him it would no longer be faith, right?

Indeed, but you could still believe that you know what he is. You don't have to, but personally, I'd want to know exactly what I believe. it doesn't really matter though.

I think he is testing us.. There isn't any wrong doing in heaven.

But that's the thing. If there's no wrong in Heaven, we don't need to be tested, because we will only be doing good in Heaven, since there is no wrong, right?

However, if you look at that passage in context, you will find that it is speaking of the "end times" as in right before Jesus come back and all.

You must note that this was said before Jesus came, since then a god amount of things changed. After that it is said no where that all homosexuals should be killed.

True enough, but the bible still says it, nonetheless. What they should have done is removed the old testament from the bible when the new one came. The fact that it still remains shows that Christians (even if only a handful) believed that it had truth and worth (which moral logic contradicts).

[Magus]

Forgiven.

Sarcasm to the maximum of the levels.



So homosexuals or transvestites or whatever should be killed? This isn't evil? You should flood the world when they don't follow you? This isn't evil? Sounds sadistic to me.

Actually, what we call them the 3rd sex is not condemned. But yes, homosexual got killed, the people of Sodom; they disobeyed. The story of the flood is another whole story, get your resources right and don't intertwine the stories there now.


As a point to be made in a debate. Simple as that.


I don't get you. Simple as that.

It is also where people debate them as I've seen before. It appears to me that you don't like having your arguments contradicted.

BUWAHAHAH!! Contradicted....Jeez. You make me laugh, I remember an atheist in another forum made a thread and named it Psalm-14. And he only talked the same ever thing. Is how a loving, caring God is evil.

God is not caring and loving and just, no one else but him that forgives and the most merciful. Yes, I am sure you are saying, he is not real and blah blah blah.

What else? If he is not real, there is no God. What else? What's beyond the God? What's beyond the unreal?

If there aren't God, religion would've never even made. There are reason for the cause for everything.

Same ol' Stephen Hawkins pointed on some of the creation Myth(The vomiting Mbombo) And he concluded that all religions are based from the same source of creation myth, but as our case it also developed and evolved by the passing years.

But in this way, aren't you denying Jesus? What's your point of view on Jesus, hm?

==

Let me put my self in the foot of an Atheist.

Yeah, There is no God, obviously we are an evolved creatures from what came from even simple organism(a better term than creature in atheism)
And happened in the simple way, the balance of the earth position in this system.

The god is just a myth and evolved into many religion and blind faiths.

The big bang as a starter of the universe we see in the visible spectrum.
And not God, who made it in six days, because he doesn't exist.

What else....Did I missed something.

Yeah, I want to be an atheist or an agnostic. Just give me some pointers here man. What else, did I miss something yet?

[Marcie]

Indeed, but you could still believe that you know what he is. You don't have to, but personally, I'd want to know exactly what I believe. it doesn't really matter though.
I do know exactly what I believe, I just don't really know what kind of being he is. Actually, I'm pretty sure he's everything lol


But that's the thing. If there's no wrong in Heaven, we don't need to be tested, because we will only be doing good in Heaven, since there is no wrong, right?
Maybe it's more of a earning out way into Heaven kind of thing.. He wants us to show that we love him and are willing to do anything for him, before he lets us live forever with him in Heaven. For those who don't Love him, they don't get to live with him, they get to live with the Devil..


True enough, but the bible still says it, nonetheless. What they should have done is removed the old testament from the bible when the new one came. The fact that it still remains shows that Christians (even if only a handful) believed that it had truth and worth (which moral logic contradicts).
If they omitted the old testament so many great teachings, poems, and songs would be lost. Like the Ten Commandments, and Psalms. Not to mention it tells of the very beginning and how that happened.It does have truth and worth.

[Death]

Sarcasm to the maximum of the levels.

There was sarcasm from both of us, so we should really drop this now.

Actually, what we call them the 3rd sex is not condemned. But yes, homosexual got killed, the people of Sodom; they disobeyed. The story of the flood is another whole story, get your resources right and don't intertwine the stories there now.

They both paint God in a bad light. So please don't tell me to 'get it right' when I meant to use both sources.

I don't get you. Simple as that.

It's really quite simple. We are in a debate, and so we are debating. This involves refutal and contradictions.

God is not caring and loving and just, no one else but him that forgives and the most merciful. Yes, I am sure you are saying, he is not real and blah blah blah.

Do you have a problem with my atheism?

What else? If he is not real, there is no God. What else? What's beyond the God? What's beyond the unreal?

If by that you mean what's beyond the universe, then to our knowledge, we know of nothing beyond it.

If there aren't God, religion would've never even made.

That makes no sense. God didn't make religion; we did because we believed that he exists. No-one 'knows' that God exists.

There are reason for the cause for everything.

Then that would stretch to God. What's the cause of God? If God doesn't require one, why does the universe or the matter from which it's created need one? That argument works both ways.

But in this way, aren't you denying Jesus? What's your point of view on Jesus, hm?

Actually, I think Jesus of the new testament was portrayed as a good man; a complete opposite of the God of the old testament (due to some of the things he's said or done). But as for Jesus, I think he was definetely better and forgiving.


I do know exactly what I believe, I just don't really know what kind of being he is. Actually, I'm pretty sure he's everything lol

So when I'm on the toilet, I'm shitting on God (no offense meant)? God is not a person or being?

Maybe it's more of a earning out way into Heaven kind of thing.. He wants us to show that we love him and are willing to do anything for him, before he lets us live forever with him in Heaven. For those who don't Love him, they don't get to live with him, they get to live with the Devil..

Does that not seem harsh of God? Harsh to condemn people to torture simply for not following him? I'm sorry, but if I were God, I would want everyone to be happy and so I would just let everyone be in Heaven where there would be no need to test people because there would be no wrong-doing. People could show their love to me there.

If they omitted the old testament so many great teachings, poems, and songs would be lost. Like the Ten Commandments, and Psalms. Not to mention it tells of the very beginning and how that happened.

True, but it could still have done with some edits, I think.

It does have truth and worth.

There will probably be some truth, yes, but that doesn't refute that fact that it still has a lot of scriptures which I am quite simply shocked by - unlike the new testament.

[Marcie]

So when I'm on the toilet, I'm shitting on God (no offense meant)? God is not a person or being?
Not quite what I meant... I meant more of his presence can be felt in everything, after all he did create it all. I think he is a being of some sort, though I don't think he is restricted to residing in only one form of existence. Meaning he could appear as anything he wanted to. Like he did to Moses, he appeared as a burning bush.


Does that not seem harsh of God? Harsh to condemn people to torture simply for not following him? I'm sorry, but if I were God, I would want everyone to be happy and so I would just let everyone be in Heaven where there would be no need to test people because there would be no wrong-doing. People could show their love to me there.
It's easy to Love when all is perfect around you. It's much more difficult to Love when you face challenges, the likes of which you will not ever face in Heaven. Also, there's the whole thing in the beginning with Adam and Eve.. Before that we did basically start out in Heaven.


True, but it could still have done with some edits, I think.

There will probably be some truth, yes, but that doesn't refute that fact that it still has a lot of scriptures which I am quite simply shocked by - unlike the new testament.
While that may be true, if you omitted those things, then you wouldn't be able to see the changes that transpired after Jesus' coming as well as you could with those sections in the OT.

[INFERNO]

If there aren't God, religion would've never even made. There are reason for the cause for everything.

I agree there is a cause for everything, however, you are assuming god made the religion. If that's the case, then the dictionary definitions of religion are wrong because all those apply to humans making a set of beliefs about explaining supernatural and other worldly events with reference to a divine being. Alternatively, you may be arguing that humans wouldn't have made religion if they knew god never existed. This presupposes there was at some point proof of god's existence that was not inferred. Debates have gone on about this point and it's ended up with both sides agreeing there is no direct proof. I'm giving this alternate explanation because your argument was a bit ambiguous, I wasn't sure which approach you were taking.

Nevertheless, one thing about religions, such as Christianity, is that even if the Christian god truly does not exist, the belief allows for people to be under control of one or more persons. Consider the bible when it makes reference to god. Perhaps it's a fairy-tale or perhaps it's an elite minority who are striving to successfully govern the majority and to obey them without question. If the people are dumb and if they're told someone is a god, and god does all this and that, wants this and that, it makes sense to obey.


Let me put my self in the foot of an Atheist.

Yeah, There is no God, obviously we are an evolved creatures from what came from even simple organism(a better term than creature in atheism)
And happened in the simple way, the balance of the earth position in this system.

The god is just a myth and evolved into many religion and blind faiths.

The big bang as a starter of the universe we see in the visible spectrum.
And not God, who made it in six days, because he doesn't exist.

What else....Did I missed something.

Yeah, I want to be an atheist or an agnostic. Just give me some pointers here man. What else, did I miss something yet?

You missed pretty much everything actually. No where in the belief in atheism or even agnosticism does it require one to believe in science (i.e. evolution, big bang, etc...). So from the start, you're wrong because you're saying otherwise. Just because the majority (I'm assuming the majority) believe in science, it does not mean that atheism requires believing in science. All it requires is the disbelief of gods and nothing more. Believing in science is completely separate despite it commonly being tossed into the mix.

It's like making a homemade birthday cake: you need a pan or dish of some sort to bake the cake in at home (disbelief of god) but you do not need to have candles on it for the birthday boy/girl (belief in science). In other words, making the cake doesn't require candles just as atheism does not require science.

Moving on, regarding the big bang, not all atheists believe it as there are alternatives, such as String Theory and M-theory involving theoretical physics. There is much support gaining in that area, so you're wrong on this count also.

Continuing, while many accept evolution, it's not needed and in fact, you'll find many atheists don't actually understand it. They support it but you ask them a bit and you realize they really haven't got a clue.

Lastly, this point is just a statement that makes no sense at all from you: evolution of organisms balanced the Earth's position. I don't know if atheists believe this but certainly it's not required and it certainly makes no sense coming from the scientific perspective.

[deadpie]

You missed pretty much everything actually. No where in the belief in atheism or even agnosticism does it require one to believe in science (i.e. evolution, big bang, etc...). So from the start, you're wrong because you're saying otherwise. Just because the majority (I'm assuming the majority) believe in science, it does not mean that atheism requires believing in science. All it requires is the disbelief of gods and nothing more. Believing in science is completely separate despite it commonly being tossed into the mix.


This. Thank you so much. I try to explain this to so many people.

[kingpinnn]

sorry to offend anyone...i believe that those that believe in god and heaven, need those things because they cannot confront the fact that when they die that there is a real possibility that their life was all for not, all that will be left over will be memories. the sad truth is, there is much more evidence for the scientific points of view than an eternal being. if you look at many of the new religions, such as Scientology, you will think what they are saying is insane. the Christians of the time of Christ sounded just as insane. the only reason they grabbed hold and became the dominant religion was because of their luck. because of Constantine and and the end of persecution of Christians, the religion flourished. not to mention the fact that the people of that time were vulnerable due to civil wars, economic hardships, and many other bad things that they were looking for a change, and the common belief back then was that the higher power gave you luck and prosperity and so forth. with the promise the Christians gave of all these benefits, plus the threat of fire and brimstone if you didn't go along with then, this lead to the explosion of Christianity. people wonder why God isn't as common as it used to be...it is because people are learning and asking questions. science is debunking so many myths and legends of all religions, that it is no wonder why atheism and agnosticism is gaining ground. the only reason, i think, that agnosticism is so prominent is because the belief of a higher power has a strangle hold on our society. people are afraid that if they dont believe in a higher power, they might face the possibly of a hell, or discrimination from the rest of society. this can be attributed to the christian's belief that all other beliefs are wrong and that if you dont agree with them, then you die.

[Magus]

I agree there is a cause for everything, however, you are assuming god made the religion. If that's the case, then the dictionary definitions of religion are wrong because all those apply to humans making a set of beliefs about explaining supernatural and other worldly events with reference to a divine being. Alternatively, you may be arguing that humans wouldn't have made religion if they knew god never existed. This presupposes there was at some point proof of god's existence that was not inferred. Debates have gone on about this point and it's ended up with both sides agreeing there is no direct proof. I'm giving this alternate explanation because your argument was a bit ambiguous, I wasn't sure which approach you were taking.


Actually, it was the sarcastic my point of view, I don't know why the hell you took it literally. And that's why it was blocking you for a while

Both Buddhism and Taoism are not religion, because they do not follow the teaching of a certain deity. Yet they are connected and pointed as a religion.

One thing should be understand by both of the sides. We cannot prove God exist because he doesn't exist and because he exist already. This is the basis of all debates in most of the places what we call forums and even symposiums.


Nevertheless............... it makes sense to obey.


Who obeys who? No body says obey a human, if you are to obey a person, let it be the law they passed in their land.

Someone? Since one a God a human being. For me, God is not a human being.
Is not a creature we can think of in our mind. You say god is an imagination played in the peoples mind, but I cannot imagine something that already doesn't exist.

But as far religion goes, as theist believes that there is a God.

Of course, I won't ask you to prove that God doesn't exist, it is impossible to prove something that already doesn't exist. But the existing God is not in our reach.

I am sure you wouldn't go against the laws that are passed in the land you are living.

You missed..........................into the mix.

Yeah, let say something to the symbology.

http://willwybrow.com/blog/wp-content/atheist-logo-300.jpg

What is that? Seems like an atom to me, and those are the electron shells and electron clouds. Why? Is atheism connected to chemistry or physical law embedded in it? Who concocted in any way?

True, one is not necessarily need to believe in something to begin something else.

I am straightly talking about atheism and not agnosticism. Because I am what you call a monotheistic agnostic, while majority are atheistic agnostic.

+ Science is not a system of belief I agree. But as you said in your following words. It is an assortment along with atheism.
==
It's like....................does not require science.

But birthday cake? What is that? I think it is an edible food, other than that...

True, atheism was there before what human came into scientific discoveries.
Or the discovery of any branch of science itself.


Moving on.....................also.

String Theory? String Field theory, no?
Well, I haven't gone there it. I don't know which account you are referring, but yes I lack in that knowledge.

Continuing.................... haven't got a clue.


If they don't understand evolution then their systematics is diverted.
It is the Taxonomy that makes us understand evolution, sure organ change from one form to another in a specific timeline and other things I am not going to mention the causes. I am not getting any where am I? Sorry, I don't major in biology and haven't even started by 12th grade. So, some of things are limited.

Also, not atheism that support evolution, in fact the ones who induced the Idea of evolution and plunged it into the following century are the same ol' Islamic Scholars like Ibn Miskawayh, the Brethren of Purity, al-Khazini, Abū Rayhan al-Biruni, Nasir al-Din Tusi, and Ibn Khaldun. All of them.

And mainly Al-Jahiz and not Darwin the first thought of natural selection.

But thing is, they are Muslims and not atheists. Again, where am I going?


Lastly, this point is just a statement that makes no sense at all from you: evolution of organisms balanced the Earth's position. I don't know if atheists believe this but certainly it's not required and it certainly makes no sense coming from the scientific perspective

I think you perceived it wrong, what I said is that the balanced position of earth is what supported in the growth of organism. You are just me some where else.

I am done. I won't post anymore here, until you do make a real debate thread.

Yes, I am not good at debates. Who said I am.

[Death]

I am done. I won't post anymore here, until you do make a real debate thread.

Yes, I am not good at debates. Who said I am.

There is nothing wrong with this thread. You are merely unable to refute us.

[Magus]

There is nothing wrong with this thread. You are merely unable to refute us.

Refute us?

Who are the "us"?

A unity versus an entity?

You if want a refute, make a thread with a name Psalm-14. Because, this is the name of the first thread I ever participated in debates.

Well, the other side proved nothing in any ways.

[Death]

I am perfectly within my rights to debate and refute in this thread. Regardless: so much for not coming back. I thought you said that you were done here. Why say that you will do something when you aren't going to go along with it?

[Magus]

I am perfectly within my rights to debate and refute in this thread. Regardless: so much for not coming back. I thought you said that you were done here. Why say that you will do something when you aren't going to go along with it?

I don't know?

But, debates like this are never ending I assure you.

A theists will go with their blah blah..god forgiving..blah blah..god exist..blah blah

And atheists will go with their blah blah..god myth..blah blah..god evil..blah blah

It is never ending, and deemed pointless.

If you don't believe this, it actually a fact and you are forced to believe it.

Here is an article I learned from, and you can too >> CLICK ME (http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/whydebate.htm) CLICK 2 (http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/p/AtheistsDebate.htm)

[Death]

These threads may be 'never-ending', but that doesn't really matter. We can still debate here.

[Marcie]

These threads may be 'never-ending', but that doesn't really matter. We can still debate here.

Debating is fun :)

[deadpie]

Here is an article I learned from, and you can too >> CLICK ME (http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/whydebate.htm) CLICK 2 (http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/p/AtheistsDebate.htm)

I like debating with theists because it's never ending fun.

I like this quote from the bible. It's funny:

Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)

[INFERNO]

Actually, it was the sarcastic my point of view, I don't know why the hell you took it literally. And that's why it was blocking you for a while

It's hard to sometimes detect sarcasm via text only.


One thing should be understand by both of the sides. We cannot prove God exist because he doesn't exist and because he exist already. This is the basis of all debates in most of the places what we call forums and even symposiums.

How can this be understood by both sides? Only your side understands it because you believe he exists. By saying atheists must accept that completely contradicts the entire belief of atheism. Doesn't work.


Someone? Since one a God a human being. For me, God is not a human being.
Is not a creature we can think of in our mind. You say god is an imagination played in the peoples mind, but I cannot imagine something that already doesn't exist.

I never said he was actually a human being in my view, re-read what I said.


What is that? Seems like an atom to me, and those are the electron shells and electron clouds. Why? Is atheism connected to chemistry or physical law embedded in it? Who concocted in any way?

No, atheism is simply the belief there is no god or higher being. Many atheists do adhere to science, that's true. I'm not sure what the point is you're trying to make here though.


But birthday cake? What is that? I think it is an edible food, other than that...

It's a metaphor, one I explained very clearly. I'm not sure why you're having difficulty understanding that.


String Theory? String Field theory, no?
Well, I haven't gone there it. I don't know which account you are referring, but yes I lack in that knowledge.

Look it up.


Also, not atheism that support evolution, in fact the ones who induced the Idea of evolution and plunged it into the following century are the same ol' Islamic Scholars like Ibn Miskawayh, the Brethren of Purity, al-Khazini, Abū Rayhan al-Biruni, Nasir al-Din Tusi, and Ibn Khaldun. All of them.

And mainly Al-Jahiz and not Darwin the first thought of natural selection.

But thing is, they are Muslims and not atheists. Again, where am I going?

Yes, others other than Darwin thought of evolution way before his time, some of whom were religious. What's your point?


I think you perceived it wrong, what I said is that the balanced position of earth is what supported in the growth of organism. You are just me some where else.

That's not what you said before but it makes sense now.


I am done. I won't post anymore here, until you do make a real debate thread.

Do you have a topic in mind? I'm not going to make one simply because you want me to without an idea in mind because these posts (the one I responded to and this one I'm responding to) have a diverse set of ideas, pick one or two.

Seeing as how you are willing to return to this thread, perhaps you can address the above issue here.

[Death]

I like debating with theists because it's never ending fun.
Debating is fun :)

I agree with both of you. And we really don't need another topic in which to do it.

[Marcie]

Death,
Do you have a response to my earlier post? (post #1287)

[josh93]

christainanty

[Jess]

atheism, used to be Christian

[deadpie]

christainanty

You should really learn how to spell your religion.

[Death]

christainanty
You should really learn how to spell your religion.

QFT!

Death,
Do you have a response to my earlier post? (post #1287)

Seeing that you've asked...

Not quite what I meant... I meant more of his presence can be felt in everything, after all he did create it all. I think he is a being of some sort, though I don't think he is restricted to residing in only one form of existence. Meaning he could appear as anything he wanted to. Like he did to Moses, he appeared as a burning bush.

If you interpret the bible literally, than yes he would have done. But one thing that I'd like to ask is what do you mean when you say that you can feel his presense? What can you feel which isn't being felt by your senses responding to physical stimuli in your surroundungs?

It's easy to Love when all is perfect around you. It's much more difficult to Love when you face challenges, the likes of which you will not ever face in Heaven. Also, there's the whole thing in the beginning with Adam and Eve.. Before that we did basically start out in Heaven.

What you say about loving is correct, but that still doesn't refute the fact that God need not test us at all.

While that may be true, if you omitted those things, then you wouldn't be able to see the changes that transpired after Jesus' coming as well as you could with those sections in the OT.

Why need you see the changes so much? There probably will be a change to some degree anyway. Personally, I think that the bible would be better off without said passages because there would be less to critisize it for; less things which will offend anyone with morals.

[Marcie]

If you interpret the bible literally, than yes he would have done. But one thing that I'd like to ask is what do you mean when you say that you can feel his presense? What can you feel which isn't being felt by your senses responding to physical stimuli in your surroundungs?
Just looking at everything around you, how it all works together to replenish the atmosphere, and how complicated everything is, especially the human eye. There's no way all that was made by some freak accident.
I don't really know how to describe it but you can just kinda feel His presence..


What you say about loving is correct, but that still doesn't refute the fact that God need not test us at all.
Maybe he just wants to know if we Love him or not. Even if we did start in Heaven, I'm not sure we'd all Love Him. It is said the during the "Millennium" though the world will be rid of the devil, thus no more evil and it would be perfect, and Jesus himself will be ruling, people sill still reject him.


Why need you see the changes so much? There probably will be a change to some degree anyway. Personally, I think that the bible would be better off without said passages because there would be less to critisize it for; less things which will offend anyone with morals.
No matter what, something is going to offend someone.

[INFERNO]

Just looking at everything around you, how it all works together to replenish the atmosphere, and how complicated everything is, especially the human eye. There's no way all that was made by some freak accident.

It's certainly quite possible things could gradually change over time. Take an example of the human heart, it has 2 atria and 2 ventricles. In other organisms, such as within Crocodilia, there is "incomplete separation" because of their unique abilities within water. If we look at other organisms still, such as salamanders, the atria are not separated but ventricles are. Still in others, neither are separated and if we look at even more, there are none of these yet circulation of blood and gases still occurs. These are all found in modern, living organisms. So saying everything came about by a freak accident is a bit ridiculous but it's perfectly plausible for things to have gradually changed in a way that was as beneficial as possible, as well as within reason.


I don't really know how to describe it but you can just kinda feel His presence..

I apparently do not so is it possible that it's psychological in that you believe in him being there so much so that you perceive him to be there without having any of your sensory systems activated? This occurs to humans in many instances so it's not something I'm just conjuring up now.

[Magus]

It's certainly quite............. as beneficial as possible, as well as within reason.


You mention reptiles and mention amphibian. What about fish? They have two chambers and only unoxygenated blood flows through it once per circulation.

It is supposed to be 3 chambers, but because(I forget where) Doesn't have cardiac muscle, so it is not 3 chambers.

Also, it is called something...I forget.


Then, the gradual change.

Is this thread about biology?

[Thrash Bassist]

I'm a Satanist.

[Magus]

I'm a Satanist.

Then let us pray together my brother.

http://marcoponce.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/baphomet1.jpg

[deadpie]

Then let us pray together my brother.

http://marcoponce.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/baphomet1.jpg

Allot of people have put in the thought that satanism is evil shit, but it's really not. Sometimes one that says their satanist doesn't even know what the hell they're talking about. People that make these myths about satanists killing kids and performing sexual rituals on animals are usually just wrapped up in such a complete idiotic mindset. What you may not know, is that they live under a law of rules:

1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
3. When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
9. Do not harm little children.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

Satanism is not the religious worship of any deity but rather a religious uptake of a humanistic philosophy. We recognize ourselves as gods, and we hold our own perspective on life as holy and revere our own experiences as the only truth we can ever know.
Satanism is the utter rejection of the spiritual way of theistic religions, and the honest admittance that we are just animals who evolve as any other complex system.
-Anton LaVey (1967)

[Marcie]

It's certainly quite possible things could gradually change over time. Take an example of the human heart, it has 2 atria and 2 ventricles. In other organisms, such as within Crocodilia, there is "incomplete separation" because of their unique abilities within water. If we look at other organisms still, such as salamanders, the atria are not separated but ventricles are. Still in others, neither are separated and if we look at even more, there are none of these yet circulation of blood and gases still occurs. These are all found in modern, living organisms. So saying everything came about by a freak accident is a bit ridiculous but it's perfectly plausible for things to have gradually changed in a way that was as beneficial as possible, as well as within reason.
Yes, I do think that 'things,' for lack of a better word, could have slowly 'evolved' over time. However, how did they start? You agreed that a freak accident wasn't very plausible, how do you think life started? Or do you believe life has always been?


I apparently do not so is it possible that it's psychological in that you believe in him being there so much so that you perceive him to be there without having any of your sensory systems activated? This occurs to humans in many instances so it's not something I'm just conjuring up now.
That certainly would be a possibility, and I have no way to rule it out, for we can not venture into each other's mind...
What I can say is this:
God said in John 14:21, "Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." hehe it worked :P (The quoting God thing)

Is that passage Jesus tells us that, once we believe in Him, he will reveal His presence to us. Therefore, those of us who are Christians would be able to sense Him around us more easily, while those who aren't would have a much more difficult time feeling Him.

[Jamie]

I'm an atheist.

[INFERNO]

You mention reptiles and mention amphibian. What about fish? They have two chambers and only unoxygenated blood flows through it once per circulation.

True but I wasn't planning to give a lecture-long post so I made it as brief as possible, which inevitably means not making it very detailed. That, and if it is more detailed, I figured it may be a waste of time posting as many may not understand what I'm saying and simply ignore it.


Is this thread about biology?

No but the person's post whom I was responding to involved biology.

Yes, I do think that 'things,' for lack of a better word, could have slowly 'evolved' over time. However, how did they start? You agreed that a freak accident wasn't very plausible, how do you think life started? Or do you believe life has always been?

Evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life. To me, on Earth at least, it started out from "chemical evolution". That is not a freak accident because there are chemical interactions occurring. How those got on Earth, or rather how the universe began is a whole other can of worms that I really don't know a whole lot about.


What I can say is this:
God said in John 14:21, hehe it worked :P (The quoting God thing)

Is that passage Jesus tells us that, once we believe in Him, he will reveal His presence to us. Therefore, those of us who are Christians would be able to sense Him around us more easily, while those who aren't would have a much more difficult time feeling Him.

The beauty of the passage, John 14:21 that you're mentioning is that it doesn't matter if one is a believer or not, it implies god exists regardless. It says god is present, if you can detect him or not is another story but he exists anyway. However, I can return to the psychological argument I posed in that as you stated yourself, you cannot rule that argument out and so I can apply that to your biblical quote by saying if you believe hard enough in something, you'll eventually think it's there even if it isn't. In other words, placebo effect. This brings us back to where we started before when I initially stated my psychological argument so by posting your biblical quote, it's done nothing.

[Dive to Survive]

Then let us pray together my brother.

http://marcoponce.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/baphomet1.jpg

Just curious but who do u pray to? i dont mean to be mean at all, just curious.:)

[Marcie]

Evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life. To me, on Earth at least, it started out from "chemical evolution". That is not a freak accident because there are chemical interactions occurring. How those got on Earth, or rather how the universe began is a whole other can of worms that I really don't know a whole lot about.
Ahh, well even with chemical reactions, how could that create something as complicated as the human eye. And how could it make everything work together to replenish resources? That seem like an awful lot of cooperation between reactions..



The beauty of the passage, John 14:21 that you're mentioning is that it doesn't matter if one is a believer or not, it implies god exists regardless. It says god is present, if you can detect him or not is another story but he exists anyway. However, I can return to the psychological argument I posed in that as you stated yourself, you cannot rule that argument out and so I can apply that to your biblical quote by saying if you believe hard enough in something, you'll eventually think it's there even if it isn't. In other words, placebo effect. This brings us back to where we started before when I initially stated my psychological argument so by posting your biblical quote, it's done nothing.
I believe that any information presented for this issue would lead to a circulatory argument..

[Perseus]

Ahh, well even with chemical reactions, how could that create something as complicated as the human eye. And how could it make everything work together to replenish resources? That seem like an awful lot of cooperation between reactions..





Whenever said chemical evolution happened, it wasn't humans or anything. It was basic life, but I don't know enough about said topic, so I shall stop speaking and let INFERNO talk about it since I'm pretty sure he knows about said topic a lot better, lol.

[INFERNO]

Ahh, well even with chemical reactions, how could that create something as complicated as the human eye. And how could it make everything work together to replenish resources? That seem like an awful lot of cooperation between reactions..


There are various physiological evolutionary changes that occurred to produce the human eye as we know it today. The chemical interactions, assuming the same chemicals, interact the same way. Amino acids through modern-day experiments on chemical evolution, as seen by the Miller-Urey experiment. However, there is also evolution at the molecular level and this is where many of the changes occur even if they cannot yet be seen at the superficial level. To understand the evolution of the eye completely, you need to have enough knowledge of molecular biology, evolution and physiology. It's far too detailed and long for me to begin to explain here so if you want the answer, I suggest looking it up online. However, from the way you're asking me, I'm uncertain if you have studied these areas and so your questions may be asking not about the details but rather how the more basic concepts work. I'll wait for your answer to find out which.


Whenever said chemical evolution happened, it wasn't humans or anything. It was basic life, but I don't know enough about said topic, so I shall stop speaking and let INFERNO talk about it since I'm pretty sure he knows about said topic a lot better, lol.

Thank you for the compliment. BTW, I was the one who mentioned chemical evolution to Marcie :lol:

[georgiamay]

i'm an atheist for several reasons:

1) i find it hard to believe that there is a God when there is so much suffering in the world.
2) If you have heard of Karl Marx, you will know what i mean when i say that i believe religion is the opiet of the oppressed, which was what he said.

[Scarface]

i am agnostic. i believe in karma

[Sage]

i believe in karma

Good things happen to bad people. Bad things happen to good people. Your argument is invalid.

[georgiamay]

Your argument is invalid.

His argument is not invalid you just disagree.

Good things happen to bad people. Bad things happen to good people.

this is not always the case. sometimes good things happen to good people. sometimes bad things happen to bad people. it might seem this way to you, but i assure you, it is not ALWAYS the case.

[Sage]

His argument is not invalid you just disagree.
The entire point I made in my post sort of completely contradicts karma. So, yes, it is pretty invalid, and yes, I do disagree with it because it is invalid.

[/QUOTE]this is not always the case.[/QUOTE]

Not always, but even being the case some of the time proves that karma does not exist as a rule of the universe.

[georgiamay]

The entire point I made in my post sort of completely contradicts karma. So, yes, it is pretty invalid, and yes, I do disagree with it because it is invalid.

well, its a matter of opinion. you can't say someone's opinion is invalid just because you have a counter agument. his argument is still valid, you just have a contradicting argument. you could say that someone who says "abortion is right because unwanted pregnancies ruin lives" has an invalid argument if you use that logic, because to could say "but your destrying a life, therefore your argument is invalid" it is not invalid, it is just a different opinion to yours.

[Sage]

well, its a matter of opinion. you can't say someone's opinion is invalid just because you have a counter agument.
That's kind of the basic premise of how debating ideas works.

his argument is still valid,
Until a counter point is raised, no, it's not actually.

you just have a contradicting argument.
Contradicting arguments prove nothing. A counter point works differently in debasing the original argument and make it invalid.

you could say that someone who says "abortion is right because unwanted pregnancies ruin lives" has an invalid argument if you use that logic,
I'm not using that logic. You're using that logic. And, it's pretty illogical.

because to could say "but your destrying a life, therefore your argument is invalid" it is not invalid,
Countless people have already argued against this. I need not beat the dead horse any further.

it is just a different opinion to yours.
Teenagers seem to have this misconception that all ideas are of equal value. They're not. While they may both be opinions, one is more logical, reasonable, and backed up than the other- Therefore right. Why would anyone hold an opinion they didn't feel was right? If you just want to say "that's your opinion" to everything, then why have a debate forum in the first place?

[georgiamay]

Until a counter point is raised, no, it's not actually.

its always valid until you have FACTUAL evidence that says he is WRONG which you don't, you have an oppossing veiw of this matter.

Teenagers seem to have this misconception that all ideas are of equal value. They're not. While they may both be opinions, one is more logical, reasonable, and backed up than the other- Therefore right. Why would anyone hold an opinion they didn't feel was right? If you just want to say "that's your opinion" to everything, then why have a debate forum in the first place?

your argument may be more backed up than and logical than his, but that does not make it right, just more plausable. and his argument is not made invalid just because you have an argument that is more backed up than his, yours is just more beleivable, but you cant say it is right just because it is more beleivable. I'm not saying that you can't debate things and try to prove your opinion is right, what i am saying is that you can't say that someone's argument is invalid, unless it is factually wrong. Karma is impossible to prove either right or wrong, so if someone says its real, it cannot be invalid, if someone says it is no real, it also cannot be invalid.

i'm not saying you cant try to prove others wrong in debates, i'm saying that you cannot say that someone's opinion is invalid just because you do not agree.

[Sage]

its always valid until you have FACTUAL evidence that says he is WRONG which you don't
*facepalm*
your argument may be more backed up than and logical than his, but that does not make it right
*facepalm*
and his argument is not made invalid just because you have an argument that is more backed up than his
*facepalm*
you cant say it is right just because it is more beleivable.
*facepalm*
Karma is impossible to prove either right or wrong,
*sigh* I'm going to put this into brutally simplistic terms for you to wrap your head around.

KARMA PROPOSES: You do good things, good things happen to you. You do bad things, bad things happen to you.
REALITY PROVES: Good things do not always happen to good people and bad things do not always happen to bad people. Quite often, good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people.

REALITY PROVES KARMA DOES NOT EXIST.

jesus christ.

i'm not saying you cant try to prove others wrong in debates, i'm saying that you cannot say that someone's opinion is invalid just because you do not agree.
And I'm saying you seriously need to process the things people are typing through your mind before you reply to threads in ROTW.

[Peace God]

agnostic used to be catholic
there are a lot of unexplainable phenomenons in this world
and at times i feel that im sorta connected to things spiritually

[INFERNO]

2) If you have heard of Karl Marx, you will know what i mean when i say that i believe religion is the opiet of the oppressed, which was what he said.

You have to understand the context Marx was using when he said this. In his analysis of religion, much of it was aimed directly at Christianity, which is merely one religion but does not stand for all religions. So if you accept what Marx says, then it's best to accept it when aimed only at Christianity because outside of that, he said little to nothing religious-wise. Some of his views regarding religion, materialism and economics or capitalism are somewhat incorrect because he believed religion was determined by materialism and economics. This is a false notion. Lastly, since Marx viewed society from an economic paradigm mostly and not by any others, if he made an error here, then anything else down the road would be erroreous also (i.e. analysis on religion).

Marx's analysis on religion (http://atheism.about.com/od/philosophyofreligion/a/marx_4.htm)

Problems with Marx's anaylsis on religion (http://atheism.about.com/od/philosophyofreligion/a/marx_5.htm)

[deadpie]

I think it's interesting that after the bible, all of the crazy apeshit things that went on just stopped.
Kind of dissapointing.
I think The Bible was a good work of bizzaro fiction in my opinion.

Nobody responded to this, so I'm pissed off at all you rambling ramblers not rambling at me.

[Simon]

I Left Virtual Teen

[ltimm]

I used to be an atheist. Now, I consider myself to be a deist. What god would let sickness, hate, murder, etc into this world? One who doesn't interfear with the world. He created the universe but then He let things play out as they are today.

[Sage]

What god would let sickness, hate, murder, etc into this world?

Many different ones, actually.

[ltimm]

And yet they all say to have some kind of presence in the world. Oh wait! It's god punishing all the "sinners".

[Marcie]

There are various physiological evolutionary changes that occurred to produce the human eye as we know it today. The chemical interactions, assuming the same chemicals, interact the same way. Amino acids through modern-day experiments on chemical evolution, as seen by the Miller-Urey experiment. However, there is also evolution at the molecular level and this is where many of the changes occur even if they cannot yet be seen at the superficial level. To understand the evolution of the eye completely, you need to have enough knowledge of molecular biology, evolution and physiology. It's far too detailed and long for me to begin to explain here so if you want the answer, I suggest looking it up online. However, from the way you're asking me, I'm uncertain if you have studied these areas and so your questions may be asking not about the details but rather how the more basic concepts work. I'll wait for your answer to find out which.

Probably more of the basic concept. I haven't done too much studying of this topic, though I have done a good amount.

[deadpie]

I used to be an atheist. Now, I consider myself to be a deist. What god would let sickness, hate, murder, etc into this world? One who doesn't interfear with the world. He created the universe but then He let things play out as they are today.

God might be busy choking the chicken. He doesn't get enough time off from all of us, ya know.

[INFERNO]

Probably more of the basic concept. I haven't done too much studying of this topic, though I have done a good amount.

That is quite vague and ambiguous, you know? :lol: . Anyways, if you want to further discuss it, I'll be happy to either in this thread or in another thread but I'll wait until some interest is shown so I don't make a thread that accumulates views but not posts.

[miranda_cutie15]

im atheist
all my friends are christians
we use to fight alot but now we avoid the topic

[Marcie]

That is quite vague and ambiguous, you know? :lol: . Anyways, if you want to further discuss it, I'll be happy to either in this thread or in another thread but I'll wait until some interest is shown so I don't make a thread that accumulates views but not posts.

Lol, well if you do decide to create another thread devoted to that topic, I would love to discuss it with you. Though I don't know how much I could contribute to a discussion..

[deadpie]

And yet they all say to have some kind of presence in the world. Oh wait! It's god punishing all the "sinners".

No, it's the fact that God likes violence.

[BuryYourFlame]

No, it's the fact that God likes violence.

Evidence?

[ltimm]

I think he was being sarcastic.

[Sage]

Evidence?

Read Old Testament.

[UndecidedMatter]

i believe there is no god or watever.
i think there was a person called jesus but he sure didnt do amazing things like push a boulder away whenhe's dead, or change sea water into wine or calm a storm.
thats just silly.
but thats my opinion and i dont mean any offence with it.

[deadpie]

Evidence?

Really?

---------------------------

Murder, Rape, And Pillage:
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

God Kills Children:
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

Rape And Baby Killing:
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

God Will Kill Everyone:
"I will sweep away everything in all your land," says the LORD. "I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die. I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity," says the LORD. "I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship. I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear. For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars. They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too. So now I will destroy them! And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do. They no longer ask for the LORD's guidance or seek my blessings." (Zephaniah 1:2-6 NLT)

Child Abuse:
"He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him takes care to chastise him" (Proverbs 13:24 NAB)

Kill Children:
"Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock." Psalms 137:9 NAB

Eating Feces Is Good
Each day prepare your bread as you would barley cakes. While all the people are watching, bake it over a fire using dried human dung as fuel and then eat the bread. For this is what the LORD says: Israel will eat defiled bread in the Gentile lands, where I will banish them!" Then I said, "O Sovereign LORD, must I be defiled by using human dung? For I have never been defiled before. From the time I was a child until now I have never eaten any animal that died of sickness or that I found dead. And I have never eaten any of the animals that our laws forbid." "All right," the LORD said. "You may bake your bread with cow dung instead of human dung." (Ezekiel 4:12-15 NLT)

Happiness:
And put a knife to your throat if you have a ravenous appetite. (Proverbs 23:2 NAB)

Family Hatred is OK:
(Jesus Speaking) If anyone comes to me without hating his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he can not be my disciple. (Luke 14:26 NAB)

Beat Your Children With A Rod:
Withhold not chastisement from a boy; if you beat him with a rod he will not die. Beat him with the rod, and you will save him from the nether world. (Proverbs 23:13-14 NAB)

42,000 People Die
The leaders of Ephraim responded, "The men of Gilead are nothing more than rejects from Ephraim and Manasseh." So Jephthah called out his army and attacked the men of Ephraim and defeated them. Jephthah captured the shallows of the Jordan, and whenever a fugitive from Ephraim tried to go back across, the men of Gilead would challenge him. "Are you a member of the tribe of Ephraim?" they would ask. If the man said, "No, I'm not," they would tell him to say "Shibboleth." If he was from Ephraim, he would say "Sibboleth," because people from Ephraim cannot pronounce the word correctly. Then they would take him and kill him at the shallows of the Jordan River. So forty-two thousand Ephraimites were killed at that time. (Judges 12:4-6 NLT)

God Kills More People:
(God punishes David for ordering a census of his people.) Yahweh spoke to Gad, David's seer, saying, Go and speak to David, saying, Thus says Yahweh, I offer you three things: choose you one of them, that I may do it to you. So Gad came to David, and said to him, Thus says Yahweh, Take which you will: either three years of famine; or three months to be consumed before your foes, while the sword of your enemies overtakes you; or else three days the sword of Yahweh, even pestilence in the land, and the angel of Yahweh destroying throughout all the borders of Israel. Now therefore consider what answer I shall return to him who sent me. David said to Gad, I am in a great strait: let me fall, I pray, into the hand of Yahweh; for very great are his mercies: and let me not fall into the hand of man. So Yahweh sent a pestilence on Israel; and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men. (1 Chronicles 21:9-14 WEB)

Slavery:
Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse. (1 Peter 2:18 NAB)

Murder at Babylon:
"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

Eat The Children:
So beware, for the time is coming, says the LORD, when this place will no longer be called Topheth or the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter. For I will upset the battle plans of Judah and Jerusalem and let invading armies slaughter them. The enemy will leave the dead bodies as food for the vultures and wild animals. I will wipe Jerusalem from the face of the earth, making it a monument to their stupidity. All who pass by will be appalled and will gasp at the destruction they see there. I will see to it that your enemies lay siege to the city until all the food is gone. Then those trapped inside will have to eat their own sons and daughters and friends. They will be driven to utter despair.' (Jeremiah 19:6-9 NLT)

God Sends A Bunch Of Poisonous Snakes For Some Reason:
Yes, I will send against you poisonous snakes, Against which no charm will work when they bite you, says the LORD. (Jeremiah 8:17 NAB)

120,000 Die
That is why the LORD his God allowed the king of Aram to defeat Ahaz and to exile large numbers of his people to Damascus. The armies of Israel also defeated Ahaz and inflicted many casualties on his army. In a single day Pekah son of Remaliah, Israel's king, killed 120,000 of Judah's troops because they had abandoned the LORD, the God of their ancestors. Then Zicri, a warrior from Ephraim, killed Maaseiah, the king's son; Azrikam, the king's palace commander; and Elkanah, the king's second-in-command. The armies of Israel captured 200,000 women and children from Judah and took tremendous amounts of plunder, which they took back to Samaria. (2 Chronicles 28:5-8 NLT)

God Kills 185,000 more people:
The angel of the Lord went forth and struck down one hundred and eighty-five thousand in the Assyrian camp. Early the next morning they were there, all the corpses of the dead. (Isaiah 37:36 NAB)

Humans Are Fuel For Fire:
As for you, son of man, prophesy: Thus says the Lord GOD against the Ammonites and their insults: A sword, a sword is drawn for slaughter, burnished to consume and to flash lightning, because you planned with false visions and lying divinations to lay it on the necks of depraved and wicked men whose day has come when their crimes are at an end. Return it to its sheath! In the place where you were created, in the land of your origin, I will judge you. I will pour out my indignation upon you, breathing my fiery wrath upon you, I will hand you over to ravaging men, artisans of destruction. You shall be fuel for the fire, your blood shall flow throughout the land. You shall not be remembered, for I, the LORD, have spoken. (Ezekiel 21:33-37 NAB)

Children Aren't Innocent:
How can any man be just in God’s sight, or how can any women’s child be innocent? (Job 25:4 NAB)

Priest Executing A Woman: Then Jehoiada the priest ordered the commanders who were in charge of the troops, "Take her out of the Temple, and kill anyone who tries to rescue her. Do not kill her here in the Temple of the LORD." So they seized her and led her out to the gate where horses enter the palace grounds, and they killed her there. (2 Chronicles 23:14-15 NLT)

Women Should Be Dragged By Fishhooks:
Hear this word, you cows of Bashan who are on the mountain of Samaria, Who oppress the poor, who crush the needy, Who say to your husbands, "Bring now, that we may drink!" The Lord GOD has sworn by His holiness, "Behold, the days are coming upon you When they will take you away with meat hooks, And the last of you with fish hooks. "You will go out {through} breaches {in the walls,} Each one straight before her, And you will be cast to Harmon," declares the LORD. (Amos 4:1-3 NAS)

This is just plain sick as it gets:
"Listen, you priests; this command is for you! Listen to me and take it to heart. Honor my name," says the LORD Almighty, "or I will bring a terrible curse against you. I will curse even the blessings you receive. Indeed, I have already cursed them, because you have not taken my warning seriously. I will rebuke your descendants and splatter your faces with the dung of your festival sacrifices, and I will add you to the dung heap. Then at last you will know it was I who sent you this warning so that my covenant with the Levites may continue," says the LORD Almighty. (Malachi 2:1-4 NLT)

Cannibalism:
So this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Since you have refused to obey my laws and regulations and have behaved even worse than your neighbors, I myself, the Sovereign LORD, am now your enemy. I will punish you publicly while all the nations watch. Because of your detestable idols, I will punish you more severely than I have punished anyone before or ever will again. Parents will eat their own children, and children will eat their parents. And I will punish you by scattering the few who survive to the far reaches of the earth. (Ezekiel 5:7-10)

Crazy Flood Of Death:
Finally, the water covered even the highest mountains on the earth, standing more than twenty-two feet above the highest peaks. All the living things on earth died – birds, domestic animals, wild animals, all kinds of small animals, and all the people. Everything died that breathed and lived on dry land. Every living thing on the earth was wiped out – people, animals both large and small, and birds. They were all destroyed, and only Noah was left alive, along with those who were with him in the boat. (Genesis 7:19-23 NLT)

Crushing People's Heads:
You marched across the land in awesome anger and trampled the nations in your fury. You went out to rescue your chosen people, to save your anointed ones. You crushed the heads of the wicked and laid bare their bones from head to toe. With their own weapons, you destroyed those who rushed out like a whirlwind, thinking Israel would be easy prey. (Habakkuk 3:12-14 NLT)

Hammering Stuff Into People's Heads:
Meanwhile, Sisera ran to the tent of Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, because Heber's family was on friendly terms with King Jabin of Hazor. Jael went out to meet Sisera and said to him, "Come into my tent, sir. Come in. Don't be afraid." So he went into her tent, and she covered him with a blanket. "Please give me some water," he said. "I'm thirsty." So she gave him some milk to drink and covered him again. "Stand at the door of the tent," he told her. "If anybody comes and asks you if there is anyone here, say no." But when Sisera fell asleep from exhaustion, Jael quietly crept up to him with a hammer and tent peg. Then she drove the tent peg through his temple and into the ground, and so he died. When Barak came looking for Sisera, Jael went out to meet him. She said, "Come, and I will show you the man you are looking for." So he followed her into the tent and found Sisera lying there dead, with the tent peg through his temple. So on that day Israel saw God subdue Jabin, the Canaanite king. And from that time on Israel became stronger and stronger against King Jabin, until they finally destroyed him. (Judges 4:17-24 NLT)

Christian Communism:
The community of believers was of one heart and mind, and no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they had everything in common. With great power the apostles bore witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great favor was accorded them all. There was no needy person among them, for those who owned property or houses would sell them, bring the proceeds of the sale, and put them at the feet of the apostles, and they were distributed to each according to need. (Acts 4:32-35 NAB)

God Crushes Skulls:
But God will smash the heads of his enemies, crushing the skulls of those who love their guilty ways. The Lord says, "I will bring my enemies down from Bashan; I will bring them up from the depths of the sea. You, my people, will wash your feet in their blood, and even your dogs will get their share!" (Psalms 68:21-23 NLT)

Kill Followers Of Other Religions:
While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)

Dude, I could keep going if you want me to. I have so many others marked down. Seems like that Christian God is a real nice guy! And I wanted this post to be long for a reason.

[Setzer]

atheist and happy with it XD

[jrob11]

im a Cradle Episcopalian (cradle means born and raised). YAY for the massaging pew seats!!

[Death]

With all the mentioned bible quotes, I don't know how anyone can say that God is anywhere near omni-benevolent.

[heWILLchangeyou]

Christian Baptist

[Death]

Because?

[Huskyboy132]

Being Protestant has been in our family bloodline since the early 18 hundreds. We might not go to mass on sunday (because we're too lazy) but we still specify as protestant.

[Death]

Why would one want to go to mass anyway (whether one believes or not)? If one must worship their god, can they not do it from their home?

[Perseus]

Why would one want to go to mass anyway (whether one believes or not)? If one must worship their god, can they not do it from their home?

It's to worship with other people. Way to overlook things.

[Removed]

I guess I'm an Agnostic, I do believe in some things that the Christian Church tells us, but some of the "commandments" are just too absurd... Starting with: "Thou shall not Kill" ? And yet, throughout history the Church has killed so many people that didn't believe in what they were teaching... I'm not saying I'm a full atheist, nor that i believe everything that the church tells me to.... Anyway i think religion is just a manual for life, and that's what Jesus was teaching, the good way to live life, not to kill etc...

[Aves]

I'm Catholic...but I really haven't practiced any form of faith for a while.

[INFERNO]

Why would one want to go to mass anyway (whether one believes or not)? If one must worship their god, can they not do it from their home?

To discuss with other fellow believers and to get the views others share of it, particularly on certain topics. Or, simply to meet people with similar interests while doing something enjoyable. It's like when one goes to a band camp, they can meet people and mingle but also improve on their playing ability.

[Death]

True enough, but it almost seems like they must worship in a church and a church alone. Personally, even if I did believe in God, I wouldn't particularly fancy going to church every Sunday just to worship him, even if it is with others.

[Magus]

True enough, but it almost seems like they must worship in a church and a church alone. Personally, even if I did believe in God, I wouldn't particularly fancy going to church every Sunday just to worship him, even if it is with others.

-- For those who are blank in the Islam-Section --

Yes. We have Islam as an alternative.

You pray 5 times a day. Whether in mosque or in your bedroom. More importantly is that you preform the prayers in its time.

[SafeAuto]

I'm a Christian; but I have yet to side myself to any particular denomination. I have my own collection of doubts and uncertainties, yes. (Particularly Genesis and the other books of the Old Testament), but in the end, I would describe myself as a faithful person.

[INFERNO]

True enough, but it almost seems like they must worship in a church and a church alone. Personally, even if I did believe in God, I wouldn't particularly fancy going to church every Sunday just to worship him, even if it is with others.

There are many Christians who simply pray and practice without entering a church and there are many who do pray in a church, however, those that do pray within a church I'm willing to bet they practice and pray outside it also.

[Death]

And I bet you that said Christians feel strangely better about it when they are doing so in a church (even though they needn't).

[INFERNO]

And I bet you that said Christians feel strangely better about it when they are doing so in a church (even though they needn't).

Maybe they do maybe they don't feel better while praying in a church. Honestly, some do and some don't, I don't know what you expect me to say because how people worship varies so much even within the same belief and denomination.

[HellHound]

Religion is the thing that kees the world together.Without it there would be chaos.Im not religios but i think straight

[Sage]

Religion is the thing that kees the world together.

I'm not even going to get started on how mind-blowingly stupid you are.

[scuba steve]

to Deschain: "ha."

i believe completely in science.

[anime Freak]

But ther are so many things tha science cannot explain! and religion can explain those things

[Perseus]

But ther are so many things tha science cannot explain! and religion can explain those things

Religion doesn't have proof. Science works off of proof.

[Disco Jones]

Everything can be explained.

The trouble is finding evidence for your explanation.

[Amnesiac]

Interesting, there are a lot of atheists/agnostics on here...

[Sage]

But ther are so many things tha science cannot explain! and religion can explain those things

Having an answer differs greatly from having the answer.

[Death]

Having an answer differs greatly from having the answer.

QFT. anime Freak, I can't even begin to fathom how one can seriously believe what you've just said. Another thing that you might want to think about is that scientists know that they can't explain everything right now, but they do know a damn good deal. Religion on the other hand, claims to know everything, even though it is based on archaic ideas, that were grasped out of thin air, which is outdated by up to 5000 (going back to the old testament - correct me if I'm inaccurate) years.

The more that you know, the more that you know that you don't know.

[Kohta]

But ther are so many things tha science cannot explain! and religion can explain those things

Yes, you are right about that but you have to look at our Human history and that the Greeks had Zeus Posiden and other gods to explain weather and ocean currents, yet nowadays we no longer use Greek Mythology because science has helped us understand why we have weather and why the ocean acts the way it does. So maybe in the future science will explain these other unexplainable events. BTW using religion to answer questions is the same as making up any type of fairy tale and using that as an explaination

[Kohta]

oh yea and Atheism is not a religion!

[Magus]

Science is a religion, but unlike other religions, this one seeks after the absolute truth.
The lab is like a temple to a scientist.

If you say 95%(or something) scientist are atheist and skeptics, that's a false statement.

They believe in something, and that's nature(not naturalism) and its phenomena and whatever of secrets it hides(which by it self a phenomenon).

They are bound to their labs, bound to their research. What ever they are writing with their works using pen and paper, they are writing nothing but holy scriptures to be given to the present-day and near future aspired researchers, scientists, engineers and doctors.

I won't elucidate any more, it is more than clear in what I am trying to convey.

[Apparitions]

Science is a religion, but unlike other religions, this one seeks after the absolute truth.
The lab is like a temple to a scientist.

If you say 95%(or something) scientist are atheist and skeptics, that's a false statement.

They believe in something, and that's nature(not naturalism) and its phenomena and whatever of secrets it hides(which by it self a phenomenon).

They are bound to their labs, bound to their research. What ever they are writing with their works using pen and paper, they are writing nothing but holy scriptures to be given to the present-day and near future aspired researchers, scientists, engineers and doctors.

I won't elucidate any more, it is more than clear in what I am trying to convey.
Good point. I think if I had to choose a religion then it would be either Buddhism (it's nice and peaceful unlike some religions *cough* Christianity and Islam) or simply Science. But I don't have to and I have been an Athiest since I was 13ish. I used to be a Catholic but I started to question stuff.

EDIT: Bump.

[Death]

Er, how is science a religion? If science is a religion, couldn't you also call history, maths, english (other academic topics or subjects) and so on religions?

I would have thought that a religion is a belief in (a) deity(s), which science clearly isn't.

[Magus]

Er, how is science a religion? If science is a religion, couldn't you also call history, maths, english (other academic topics or subjects) and so on religions?

I would have thought that a religion is a belief in (a) deity(s), which science clearly isn't.

Buddhism is a religion; Taoism is a religion, but neither have a deity. But the perfect nomenclature is Philosophy.

In Science, what we perceive is what we believe. Nature is the creator here, what is nature is beyond us. Same-wise, what is God is beyond us; except, science is more plausible than any other believe.

Take Alchemy for instance. It was thought that some metals can be turned into what? Exactly, this scientific belief is debunked later, since we can't get a metal(element) into another whole metal(element) with different no. of proton, neutron, atomic number, mass number, size, density and many other properties.
===

No, I am not diverting or deluding you. Science and its branches contains facts. And what are facts?

“What has religion to do with facts? Nothing”

“Facts are to the mind what food is to the body”

“The facts fairly and honestly presented; truth will take care of itself.”

“A fact is a simple statement that everyone believes. It is innocent, unless found guilty. A hypothesis is a novel suggestion that no one wants to believe. It is guilty, until found effective.”

==

But all in all - Science is not a religion.

Here is a quote from THE HUMANEST by Richard Dawkins in "Is science a religion?"

Well, science is not religion and it doesn't just come down to faith. Although it has many of religion's virtues, it has none of its vices. Science is based upon verifiable evidence.

Again, as I told you, it is totally different from all other Religions, be it theistic and atheistic. Because all other Religions is based on faith which up-holds no evidence.

Even though, Science is still and of course followed by others who do adhere their organized religions, I have seen some and in particular and shockingly Muslims. I barely heard of a Christian scientist(if you know any, please name some)The last search on "Christian Science" I got a Banana?!

Anything else you see out of the spot and sanely illogical, then feel free to scrutinize and continue this discussion.

[lagiacrus]

No, religion. Never! The largest amount of death was caused by religion. Terrorism has been caused by religion. Sad. Aetheism until I die.

[The Nerd Victorious]

Religion should be banned. It's holding back the advancement of humanity.

[Death]

I would have thought that after all the scientific knowledge we have gathered, people would have moved on from archaic beliefs, but I obviously overestimated the human population's ability to change from the traditions of over 5000 years ago.

[Sage]

Atheism: The selfish belief that a universe loaded with billions upon billions of galaxies was not made for us.

[Whisper]

Atheism: The selfish belief that a universe loaded with billions upon billions of galaxies was not made for us.

Excuse me?
if anything that defines most organized religions
not atheism
not even close

[Sage]

Excuse me?
if anything that defines most organized religions
not atheism
not even close

I said the belief that the universe was not made for us. Also, I was being sarcastic.

[Iron Man]

I follow Jediism. I believe that true happiness is within all living beings along with knowledge being power. I believe that all living beings, both big and small, should be treated with the same respect. I know the cliche` that we believe in the force, but that is a huge misconception (Only true in Star Wars). Along with us being the guardians of the galaxy.

[Magus]

Atheism: The selfish belief that a universe loaded with billions upon billions of galaxies was not made for us.

Agreed :yes: That's an undoubted statement.
==
OK! Don't -rep me, I am just KIDDING!!!

[Death]

^^And so was he.

[Sage]

I believe that all living beings, both big and small, should be treated with the same respect.

Tapeworms.

[Wtficus]

Tapeworms.

Hitler

[Dorsum Oppel]

Respect should be given when deserved.

I will respect a daisy before I respect half of the people I know.

[deadpie]

Religion is the thing that kees the world together.Without it there would be chaos.Im not religios but i think straight

>Implying the world hasn't been in chaos because of religion


But ther are so many things tha science cannot explain! and religion can explain those things

So what if the bible said the earth was flat (which it does) and scientists had proof it wasn't? Would you take the bible as a fact still?

Uhm, yeah.

[Apparitions]

I feel like arguing about religion with someone. Any takers? I'll start: There is no proof of a God or any other higher being. Your turn.

[Magus]

I feel like arguing about religion with someone. Any takers? I'll start: There is no proof of a God or any other higher being. Your turn.

You better check the internet or youtube Seminars. There are hundreds and thousands of them. +This was the first doubt that came in a skeptic's mind
"Is there a proof by which it confirms God?"

Do we need a significant proof in the first place?

[INFERNO]

But ther are so many things tha science cannot explain! and religion can explain those things

You have a point there but it comes down to how much of an explanation. In certain religions, one can claim "[name of deity] did it!", which explains why the event happened but in science, the detail can go one step further and say how it happened in a way that's on the same plane as humans. Secondly, the explanation religion provides is the same blanket one over and over and over, "the deity did it because it's a great deity". It's a superficial, vague, empty and lacking detail. When it comes to evidence of it, then that takes a whole other turn in which it becomes a chaotic mess, usually with the end result being there's no evidence.

I feel like arguing about religion with someone. Any takers? I'll start: There is no proof of a God or any other higher being. Your turn.

Since you want to debate, I'll jump in. Your argument is rejected for several reasons. First, you have not defined what a religion is. Some say it needs a deity, some say it doesn't. Without defining it, your argument is based on a concept without a definition and one that nobody (other than yourself) can address.

Second, what sort of "proof" is necessary? Humans cannot show anything is 100% true/false due to insufficient knowledge, so we must suffice for a diminished proof. What is that to you?

Third, what is your argument(s)? You have only provided a conclusion with no premise and no argument. It's an unfounded, flimsy statement. With no argument, I don't know why or how you have reached your conclusion and so even if I wanted to support your claim, I cannot because we may differ on the arguments used to reach said claim. If you stated it in previous posts, I'm not going to go on a scavenger hunt to find your argument(s) amongst the numerous other posts.

Fourth, I presume you agree with me in that we cannot use any of our 7 main bodily senses to sense a theistic being, so how can we provide proof for or against? If we turn to holy texts for certain beliefs, there's immense ambiguity and uncertainty as to what they mean and how they should be practiced.

Lastly, why is significant proof or proof beyond a reasonable doubt needed? If the belief comforts people, then why do we need to have them provide proof? What does it matter? Besides, suppose the above 4 problems are all addressed, what is the implication or usage of the outcome of the argument? If it's concluded that there are gods, so what, people believed in the past anyways but if it's concluded there are no gods, so what, that was continuously said and people still believed?

[deadpie]

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

- Epicurus

Thoughts?

[Sage]

Do we need a significant proof in the first place?

Yes.

[INFERNO]

Yes.

Because?

[Sage]

Because?

Because this is a debate forum.

[Apparitions]

Since you want to debate, I'll jump in. Your argument is rejected for several reasons. First, you have not defined what a religion is. Some say it needs a deity, some say it doesn't. Without defining it, your argument is based on a concept without a definition and one that nobody (other than yourself) can address.
OK then, religion can and cannot have a deity. I think a religion involves beliefs in how the universe works and its nature and whatever. For example, some believe that there is a higher being such as 'God' that created the universe and all life forms in it and controls/monitors/has influence over the things that happen in the universe. Some do not believe in a higher being and have some beliefs about how people should live their lives. An example of this is LaVeyan Satanism (not Theistic Satanism or Luciferianism which believes in the devil and worships it as far as I know) which I believe does not believe in God or the Devil, instead believing that a person is his own God and he should treat himself as such. A good website on LaVeyan Satanism is http://web.satanism101.com/. I sympathise with LaVeyan Satanism, it is a very interesting religion. So then, there's your definition that you can work on.

Second, what sort of "proof" is necessary? Humans cannot show anything is 100% true/false due to insufficient knowledge, so we must suffice for a diminished proof. What is that to you?
Yes, there is no way that religion can be proved or disproved but this is not a reason to take one up. I do not understand what you mean by 'diminished proof'. Explain this please. I think if God or whatever showed himself to us then that would be the proof I need to get to my local church or mosque or whatever and repent. Until then I refuse to believe that something like it exists. Anyway what kind of God that is supposed to love us lets us blow each other up and do all kinds of horrible things? I know he is supposed to give us free will be there must be a time where he/she/it steps in and says that's enough. Even sending a saviour would help to stop the bad things in the world. If people saw that God does exist then they would try and live better lives as they would know that they could be punished for their 'sins'. Why not give us proof of its existence?

Third, what is your argument(s)? You have only provided a conclusion with no premise and no argument. It's an unfounded, flimsy statement. With no argument, I don't know why or how you have reached your conclusion and so even if I wanted to support your claim, I cannot because we may differ on the arguments used to reach said claim. If you stated it in previous posts, I'm not going to go on a scavenger hunt to find your argument(s) amongst the numerous other posts.
My argument is that the idea of a God came from many many years ago when people worshipped the Sun because it gave them warmth and light, helped their food to grow and kept them safe from some kind of predator. If there was no Sun then no life would exist on this planet. Because of this they made the Sun into a God figure and worshipped it. They believed that day = good and night = evil (because of their vulnerability at night when they were at risk from predators and the coldness and darkness of night), giving us our basic good versus evil thing that is the foundation of many religions today. All this is proved by drawings and hieroglyphics left over from then. My other argument is that religion is purely astrologically based. There is an interesting thing that I saw on a video about religion. Think of Christianity and Jesus' birth and the three kings, the star in the sky and the Virgin Mary, the birth on December 25th etc etc (many other Gods also share these basic characteristics. They can't all be right, surely?). The idea comes from a constellation of three stars that show up around Christmas time. They have been called by people from many years ago as the Three Kings. Now keep that in mind and think of the 'Star in the East' at Jesus' birth. This is actually a star called Sirius which is the brightest star in the night sky. Around Christmas time (I think it is December 24th) this star aligns with the three stars in Orion's belt that I talked about earlier. Three stars = three kings following the star in the sky. Do you understand what this means? Also, the three kings and Sirius point directly to the sun rising on December 25th, therefore pointing to the birth of the Sun. This is where the birth of Jesus and many others comes in. See? Purely astrological. Now, the idea of a virgin Mary giving birth to Jesus. The virgin Mary is the constellation Virgo (aka Virgo the Virgin or the House of Bread). The representation/drawing of Virgo is a woman holding a sheaf of wheat, which I'm sure you know bread comes from. Now, Bethlehem translates to House of Bread, which shows a reference to Virgo, a lace in the sky not on Earth. As you should know the Sun is in the sky for longer around Summer and shorter in Autumn and shorter in Winter. The days get shorter from Summer to Winter as well and the crops do not grow as well. This symbolises death and the death of the Sun. By Christmas time the Sun is at its lowest point. Interestingly for three days (Dec 22 - Dec 24) the Sun does not get any lower and is in the vicinity of the southern cross constellation. But on Dec 25 it rises a little signalling longer and warmer days and the growth of crops etc. And so the Sun died on the cross, was dead for three days and rose again. This is Jesus' and many other Sun gods death and resurrection. It is again purely astrological. Christianity at least very much comes from Astrological events. The idea of Jesus being born by Virgin Mary, having tree kings follow the star to witness his birth and him dying and being resurrected after three days is symbolical of these Astrological events. This information comes from Zeitgeist, a free to view movie which is highly enlightening and will have you question the supposed 'information' told to us by our religions.

Fourth, I presume you agree with me in that we cannot use any of our 7 main bodily senses to sense a theistic being, so how can we provide proof for or against? If we turn to holy texts for certain beliefs, there's immense ambiguity and uncertainty as to what they mean and how they should be practiced.

Lastly, why is significant proof or proof beyond a reasonable doubt needed? If the belief comforts people, then why do we need to have them provide proof? What does it matter? Besides, suppose the above 4 problems are all addressed, what is the implication or usage of the outcome of the argument? If it's concluded that there are gods, so what, people believed in the past anyways but if it's concluded there are no gods, so what, that was continuously said and people still believed?

This covers both your fourth and last questions. I do agree with you when you say that you cannot use our senses to prove the existence of a God or higher being. This does not men that we should assume that there is a God though. If I told you that there is a flying pizza in a place called Heaven and that this religion shares many of the features of Christianity you couldn't prove me wrong as you cannot use your sense to disprove this. You would say that it is impossible for a pizza to be a God etc but why should people think it is possible that we have a creator who watches everything we do and when we die we are judged and send to be persecuted and tortured in Hell or live in paradise in Heaven? Explain this please. I know that people are comforted by religion and I respect this but if anyone started believing in something (not religion) this complex and whatever then they would probably be called delusional. Why is religion different? People should be left to their beliefs but why can't I try to disprove them?

Have fun answering this, I spent ages doing this so it would be nice to have it responded to. BTW out of interest are you religious or are you atheist/agnostic?

[Death]

I think INFERNO told me that he's an atheist, but his posts seem to only sometimes reflect this.

[INFERNO]

Because this is a debate forum.

What about outside debate forums?

Have fun answering this, I spent ages doing this so it would be nice to have it responded to. BTW out of interest are you religious or are you atheist/agnostic?

I can tell you spent some time on it :lol: . I'm an atheist, however, in the past I was a Christian so I know some information on it. As Death said, my posts don't always reflect this because I have the philosophy that if I'm going to debate someone, I'm either going to use my philosophy versus theirs and relate that to the topic at hand. Alternatively, I'm going to step out of my shoes and adopt their view, use evidence from their side to refute them and so forth.

OK then, religion can and cannot have a deity. I think a religion involves beliefs in how the universe works and its nature and whatever. For example, some believe that there is a higher being such as 'God' that created the universe and all life forms in it and controls/monitors/has influence over the things that happen in the universe. Some do not believe in a higher being and have some beliefs about how people should live their lives. An example of this is LaVeyan Satanism

This definition seems to be able to include science as a religion because there is no deity and it can explain how the universe works. The deciding factor on this boils down to one word used in your definition: "beliefs".

Yes, there is no way that religion can be proved or disproved but this is not a reason to take one up. I do not understand what you mean by 'diminished proof'. Explain this please. I think if God or whatever showed himself to us then that would be the proof I need to get to my local church or mosque or whatever and repent. Until then I refuse to believe that something like it exists. Anyway what kind of God that is supposed to love us lets us blow each other up and do all kinds of horrible things? I know he is supposed to give us free will be there must be a time where he/she/it steps in and says that's enough. Even sending a saviour would help to stop the bad things in the world. If people saw that God does exist then they would try and live better lives as they would know that they could be punished for their 'sins'. Why not give us proof of its existence?

In this counter-argument of yours you seem to have decided to pin-point your argument of religion directly onto Christianity. Although it is a common religion, it is not the only religion and so I'll agree that it's probably a harder one to understand but that does not suffice to refute all other religions. According to your definition of religion, no higher being may be required, so this example of Christianity cannot be used as a template for arguing against religions without higher beings (i.e. how can a religion with no higher being have evidence for its existence or truthfulness?).

By "diminished proof" I mean altering the definition or criteria of proof from being evidence that something is 100% (as we cannot know everything in the universe to this very day) to a definition whereby the evidence is constrained by the knowledge gradient in the modern world. I chose an alternative term, "diminished proof" to make this distinction clear so as to not get confused with simply "proof".

My argument is that the idea of a God came from many many years ago when people worshipped the Sun because it gave them warmth and light, helped their food to grow and kept them safe from some kind of predator. If there was no Sun then no life would exist on this planet. Because of this they made the Sun into a God figure and worshipped it. They believed that day = good and night = evil (because of their vulnerability at night when they were at risk from predators and the coldness and darkness of night), giving us our basic good versus evil thing that is the foundation of many religions today. All this is proved by drawings and hieroglyphics left over from then.

Simply put, it seems your argument is that the concept of god came from a primitive society and culture seeking explanations for natural phenomena. However, in this day and age, alternative, reliable, testable explanations via science can suffice much better. Fair enough to me.


My other argument is that religion is purely astrologically based.

Hold on, now you're straying away again. Recall your definition of religion and the example you gave of a religion lacking a higher being. This is an incorrect argument right from the start. You have a point that some religions, such as Christianity does have astrology as part of its origin but as mentioned in my previous argument, pin-pointing your argument onto Christianity does not work. It will only work if all others are the same or very similar but they're not in their origin.

I do agree with you when you say that you cannot use our senses to prove the existence of a God or higher being. This does not men that we should assume that there is a God though. If I told you that there is a flying pizza in a place called Heaven and that this religion shares many of the features of Christianity you couldn't prove me wrong as you cannot use your sense to disprove this.

Correct, I could not disprove it using my 7 senses. However, I can challenge you by saying that you have the burden of proof but if you fail at providing adequate proof, then one can say your belief is incredibly weak or that it is disproved due to insufficient evidence on your part.


You would say that it is impossible for a pizza to be a God etc but why should people think it is possible that we have a creator who watches everything we do and when we die we are judged and send to be persecuted and tortured in Hell or live in paradise in Heaven? Explain this please. I know that people are comforted by religion and I respect this but if anyone started believing in something (not religion) this complex and whatever then they would probably be called delusional.

I think there are various reasons for this and you provided one already. My others revolve around the religion being accepted by a large population for so long that eventually it may be perceived as correct, otherwise it would have been disproven earlier. It's not a strong argument on their part and is faulty but it's one that is commonly used. The others involve socialization and enculturation, meaning one teaches it to their child and the child will believe it for some time. In a small population that is religious to one religion in particular, if someone does not believe in it, then they may have a fear of ostracism. In other words, humans universally across cultures have a desire to be perceived positively, so some may accept the religion just for this purpose or for the self-serving purpose of not being rejected by the society.

Why is religion different? People should be left to their beliefs but why can't I try to disprove them? [/quote]

I never said you cannot try to disprove them, you can do that all you want.

Religion is different because it may be a philosophical belief on life, not one that involves praying. People generally are more receptive then. But, for those that do involve a higher being, it's not always receptive as people may be more inclined to view it as a cult. Also, if there's a large group all believing and practicing, then people may consider it less likely to be due to mental illnesses and more receptive to it because the chances all of them suffer from the same is reduced.