Religion

[ThatCanadianGuy]

umm... the Bible does not state "the Earth is flat" get your facts straight Canadian Man.

Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Job 38:13
13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

Daniel 4:11
11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 104:5)" (*** Apparently the earth doesn't go around the Sun... ***)

HERE'S A GEM!

"The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. (From the NIV Bible, Ecclesiastes 1:5)"

^^^ The "inspired word of god" thinks that the sun "hurries" across the sky. They also thought that there were THREE heavens, and a "firmament". The first heaven was where the birds flew, and then they thought that there was an OCEAN OF WATER above the sky that made it blue! Then "real heaven" with angels and god was above that. FLAT EARTH!!! With the sun and heaven and WATER above it.

Your welcome.

[Atonement]

^^ and how much of that is literal? ha. We sitll use those words today. "I will chase you to the far corners of this world." Does it mean the world has corners? noooooo

[Raynes]

One question that really has been on my mind...and other opinions.

First off, why do members of one faith criticize members of another? How can we know for sure that our faith is right?

I think that every major religion in the world holds a piece of the truth. If they all started acting in the manner they say they should, then maybe we could find the real truth.

Personally...I believe in a higher entity. Right now that idea is with belief in God. However, I don't label myself 'Christian' because I don't agree with some of the Christian beliefs. I agree with the beliefs of the Baptist denomination the most, though. I was raised Baptist. My mother was raised Catholic but at 17 broke away, my dad was raised Baptist.

I don't believe in the traditional fire and brimstone hell, though. I believe that if you die and your not worthy of God and the light, your soul stays here on Earth.

When it comes to the Islam world's anger at the Pope's statements, here's what I have to say:

1) The Pope quoted the writing that stated the Islam is violent and evil.
2) The Islam responds how? By violence!

so..yea...

What do you believe and why do you believe it?

I have answers to a few of those questions.

You ask why some religions put down another because no one can know their faith is right.

This statement is wrong. Christians believe they can prove the existence of god, simply by saying it's "faith" Satanists can prove their faith because there is nothing in that religion that can't be proved, unless your Theistic satanist, and in that case you're probably just rebeling against Christianity, which is by all means pointless. Luciferians have the same case, they 'can't' be wrong because they believe in nothing that can't be proved. People of paganism belief - Left hand or Right hand faiths usually can justify what they say against Christianity because that's where a lot of them come from, they realized the flaws in the religion, and were intelligent enough to realize that they shouldn't be held back by a ever-loving yet ever-limiting "God". Most of them searched out other religions and studied them, the ones who did this can put up intelligent debates against Christianity by using logic, anyone who isn't a devout Christian can understand these debates. The Devout Christians try to block out what they say by claiming they haven't read the bible right - Or misinterpreted it. Or even that they are just idiots or stupid and just insult them.

Anyone who isn't biased by Christianity can easily see what is "wrong" with Christianity.

Please understand this isn't a hate post against Christians, all of my friends are Christians and I love them all the same. Devout Christians are the problem the ones who seek to convert you to a religion you don't want to be in, the ones that hate you because you're not Christian, the ones that wont talk to you because you're not Christian and they think they might go to "Hell" if they do. Those are who I speak of.

I am Luciferian, I have been studying other religions since the age of ten. I was raised baptist and I went to church weekly until I turned 13 when I finally figured I knew enough to give a valid argument to the church for why I would no long be coming. I am by no means a reliable source on the subject, but I do think I have learned enough in my time to make this post valid. Thank you for listening.

-Rayne.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

^^ and how much of that is literal? ha. We sitll use those words today. "I will chase you to the far corners of this world." Does it mean the world has corners? noooooo

We use those words today as a FIGURE OF SPEECH.

2,000 years ago... they used those words as DESCRIPTION.

They really thought the earth was flat... and since it was JUST men that wrote the bible (sorry again with the no "godly influence" but yeah) and they knew nothing about the earth being a sphere.

Besides which, none of this accounts for the rest which said that the earth was UNMOVEABLE, and that the SUN moved across the sky; etc.

^^^ You said nothing of the firmament either, or the 3 heavens.

How do YOU reconcile the Bible with modern cosmology that CLEARLY shows there is no such thing as a FIRMAMENT or 3rd heaven etc.

Again; the firmament (ocean above the sky) of water that "caused noah's flood" obviously does not exist. Never existed. Never WILL exist... impossible due to... THE LAWS OF PHYSICS.

Yeah....

[Perseus]

dammit how did you know all those verses?

[Sapphire]

They really thought the earth was flat... and since it was JUST men that wrote the bible (sorry again with the no "godly influence" but yeah) and they knew nothing about the earth being a sphere.

Besides which, none of this accounts for the rest which said that the earth was UNMOVEABLE, and that the SUN moved across the sky; etc.
Philosophers, scientists and mathematicians also believed the world to be flat and that the Sun revolved around the Earth or moved across the sky. There are even stone carvings depicting these. They didn't know that it wasn't and had no way of proving otherwise. Yet, I don't see anyone discrediting them as much as they do the Bible, for exactly the same belief.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

Philosophers, scientists and mathematicians also believed the world to be flat and that the Sun revolved around the Earth or moved across the sky. There are even stone carvings depicting these. They didn't know that it wasn't and had no way of proving otherwise. Yet, I don't see anyone discrediting them as much as they do the Bible, for exactly the same belief.

The point is; biblical literalists think that you must take EVERYTHING in the Bible... literally.

Now... for those who believe it is the word of God... why wouldn't god tell people the REAL facts. I mean... if the bible itself talked about relativity, atoms, and germs causing disease... I'd be MUCH more convinced that it was "divinely" inspired.

And also; NO. Not ALL people though the earth was flat 2,000 years ago, or at least in the several hundred years that the bible itself was being "proof written" and mish-mashed together. People like the Greeks knew that the earth was round; and THEY were making discoveries like these several hundred years BEFORE Jesus.

Makes you wonder; if the bible is full of factual and historical errors, what makes any of its "stories" true. Which is my position; they're nothing but stories that have gotten progressively more embellished with age. Just like catching a small fish one summer... and each time you tell the story the fish gets 5 feet bigger :D

[Perseus]

God wanted people to figure out everything and not just tell them, there would no fun in that would there? People like you Canadian man wouldnt be able to figure things out when their able to lots and lots of research on a subject. but thats my opion you have no need to believe if you dont.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

God wanted people to figure out everything and not just tell them, there would no fun in that would there? People like you Canadian man wouldnt be able to figure things out when their able to lots and lots of research on a subject. but thats my opion you have no need to believe if you dont.

That's a very good cop-out. You have no proof at all that God exists... and can't even come to a consensus amongst YOURSELFS (believers) about what the "definition" of God really is! If you guys claim God to be so amazing and all-powerful and UN-KNOWABLE because he trancends space and time... how can you EVER claim to know what GOD was thinking? You can't "speak" for God... if he DOES exist than its pretty arrogant of you to talk like you KNOW what his plans were. Care to tell us the meaning of life as well?

[Perseus]

Man i doubt my religion enough.. no need to get all angry.. but if I'm correct it states that in the Bible. My opion of the meaning of life is to have fun, which is probally a lot of people's definition too.

[Raynes]

One question that really has been on my mind...and other opinions.

First off, why do members of one faith criticize members of another? How can we know for sure that our faith is right?

I think that every major religion in the world holds a piece of the truth. If they all started acting in the manner they say they should, then maybe we could find the real truth.

Personally...I believe in a higher entity. Right now that idea is with belief in God. However, I don't label myself 'Christian' because I don't agree with some of the Christian beliefs. I agree with the beliefs of the Baptist denomination the most, though. I was raised Baptist. My mother was raised Catholic but at 17 broke away, my dad was raised Baptist.

I don't believe in the traditional fire and brimstone hell, though. I believe that if you die and your not worthy of God and the light, your soul stays here on Earth.

When it comes to the Islam world's anger at the Pope's statements, here's what I have to say:

1) The Pope quoted the writing that stated the Islam is violent and evil.
2) The Islam responds how? By violence!

so..yea...

What do you believe and why do you believe it?

God wanted people to figure out everything and not just tell them, there would no fun in that would there? People like you Canadian man wouldnt be able to figure things out when their able to lots and lots of research on a subject. but thats my opion you have no need to believe if you dont.

I want a message from God, signed and dated.

That is the only way you could possibly make that statement valid.

[Requin]

Arguing with each other, both saying that you are right is a fruitless and pointless affair. Have you learnt nothing from politics?
It doesn't work.

My view is that religion is made up. I don't think it exists, I don't believe in it and I think that the 'rulers' of these religions are and were money hungry men who craved for power. That may be a bit cruel, but it's my view. I don't think it helps world issues at all, in fact I think it makes it worse. But it does help people through hard times, but it also makes things more difficult too.
Honestly, I think it's a bad thing, but it's here, I can't get rid of it, and frankly, what does my opinion mean over anothers?

Ask yourself that, anyone's opinion is no more important than another. So whatever you do or say about it, no one will agree. So I think this is one argument that you should let rest.

[Sapphire]

The point is; biblical literalists think that you must take EVERYTHING in the Bible... literally.
The key word there being literalists. That is not the approach that will benefit you the most when dealing with something like the Bible. It isn't 100% accurate and is made up of different people's experiences and interpretations of those experiences. As such, surely we would be better off taking a less restrictive approach to it?

Makes you wonder; if the bible is full of factual and historical errors, what makes any of its "stories" true. Which is my position; they're nothing but stories that have gotten progressively more embellished with age.
It isn't something which can be proved or disproved. Much like the existence of God.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

The key word there being literalists.


It isn't something which can be proved or disproved. Much like the existence of God.

Well; we CAN disprove certain things. I mean, we can disprove the flood with... FACTS. We can disprove the existence of SOME gods by taking what they did (i.e. Zeus and thunderbolts) and explain a NATURAL cause that eliminates the need for the god (meteorology).

So... we pretty much CAN disprove the "personal, prayer-answering" god with the lack of evidence OR the evidence that goes AGAINST it being true.

[Sapphire]

Well; we CAN disprove certain things. I mean, we can disprove the flood with... FACTS. We can disprove the existence of SOME gods by taking what they did (i.e. Zeus and thunderbolts) and explain a NATURAL cause that eliminates the need for the god (meteorology).

So... we pretty much CAN disprove the "personal, prayer-answering" god with the lack of evidence OR the evidence that goes AGAINST it being true.
They are things that are deemed to be actions/reactions by various gods. None of those, however, disprove or prove the existence of any god.

[Raynes]

Arguing with each other, both saying that you are right is a fruitless and pointless affair. Have you learnt nothing from politics?
It doesn't work.

My view is that religion is made up. I don't think it exists, I don't believe in it and I think that the 'rulers' of these religions are and were money hungry men who craved for power. That may be a bit cruel, but it's my view. I don't think it helps world issues at all, in fact I think it makes it worse. But it does help people through hard times, but it also makes things more difficult too.
Honestly, I think it's a bad thing, but it's here, I can't get rid of it, and frankly, what does my opinion mean over anothers?

Ask yourself that, anyone's opinion is no more important than another. So whatever you do or say about it, no one will agree. So I think this is one argument that you should let rest.

In case you didn't notice - This thread is labeled Religion, this thread was made for these discussions, pointless or not.

[Requin]

Yes...i was airing my view.
I was saying that religion is pointless. I'm sorry I forgot that everyone else was right.
That's why I never enter debates. Or try not to.

[Perseus]

ok then explain exorcisms THatCAndianGUy since you dont believe in souls you cant say, " oh its just wandering souls looking for a new host". IF there was no such thing as God there would be no demons that priests could drive out of someone's body. Just throwing that out there.

[Oblivion]

ok then explain exorcisms THatCAndianGUy since you dont believe in souls you cant say, " oh its just wandering souls looking for a new host". IF there was no such thing as God there would be no demons that priests could drive out of someone's body. Just throwing that out there.

Well, I really doubt he believes in demons
Thats part of being atheist... You dont believe in demons, or priests having the power to rid them from a body

[Perseus]

i know but how else can you explain an exorcism without religion? hmm....?

[Oblivion]

i know but how else can you explain an exorcism without religion? hmm....?

He, i am assuming, like me, do not believe in an exorcism.
Priests have no godly ways, there are no demons
Thats how we explain it

[Perseus]

but what if you see one? then what would you say?

[CaptainObvious]

but what if you see one? then what would you say?

That is a completely meaningless question until we do see one. If I saw one, I would attempt to explain it rationally; if that rational explanation were "demons exist", then so be it. But I have yet to be shown any real proof of demons, exorcisms or any of that garbage, so the question is purely hypothetical.

[theOperaGhost]

That is a completely meaningless question until we do see one. If I saw one, I would attempt to explain it rationally; if that rational explanation were "demons exist", then so be it. But I have yet to be shown any real proof of demons, exorcisms or any of that garbage, so the question is purely hypothetical.

I agree here. I don't believe an exorcism has ever happened and I don't feel they can ever happen.

[Neverender]

I agree here. I don't believe an exorcism has ever happened and I don't feel they can ever happen.

Exactly. The last "official Exorcism" in the US would be in 1947. and exorcism's arent real, and i think that by now the US has realized that your body cant be posessed by evil spirits. Maybe a brain tumor or 2 causing a seizure, but not evil spirits convulsing the body.

[daking]

I don't follow a specific religion but my religious views best fit in the category of Unitarian Universialism. I believe in god and heaven but I don't believe in Hell and stuff like that. I believe god loves everyone no matter who they are, and I don't think you need to go to church in order to be close to god.

Exactly. The last "official Exorcism" in the US would be in 1947. and exorcism's arent real, and i think that by now the US has realized that your body cant be posessed by evil spirits. Maybe a brain tumor or 2 causing a seizure, but not evil spirits convulsing the body.

I agree, I think what really happens is things like seizure or people who have paranoia schizophrenia or are experiences hallucinations, etc.

[Whisper]

Please don't double post
Just use the edit button

merging

[theOperaGhost]

I'm not sure what I am anymore...I have never had very much faith, but I'm kind of losing the faith I did have...not sure anymore...Is there an 'I don't give a shit' option? Sorry if that is offensive, but that's kind of just how I feel I guess. I think you should just take life as it comes and not worry about religion or the afterlife or anything except the present.

[Atonement]

My religion is hazy now. Like, its hard to stay close to what you believe with everything luring you away from it. In my town, there are no youth directed programs that suit me and help me in my faith. Like, its a tiny town with no oppurtunity it grow in my faith. I define myself as Christian yet don't think as one. I call myself faithful, yet thats the opposite of what i feel. Its complex. I yearn to grow closer to God. (Do not insult me on this) Yet I find it difficult to keep myself faithful. I don't care who you are, being faithful without support is damn near impossible.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

My religion is hazy now. Like, its hard to stay close to what you believe with everything luring you away from it. In my town, there are no youth directed programs that suit me and help me in my faith. Like, its a tiny town with no oppurtunity it grow in my faith. I define myself as Christian yet don't think as one. I call myself faithful, yet thats the opposite of what i feel. Its complex. I yearn to grow closer to God. (Do not insult me on this) Yet I find it difficult to keep myself faithful. I don't care who you are, being faithful without support is damn near impossible.

It's true, faith dwindles unless you have a group of people to shore it up for you. In the years leading up to me becoming an Atheist, that's exactly what things like youth groups at church and "jesus camp" at summer did for me. But don't you notice that after getting that "boost for jesus" at camp or a youth group... you go right back to your "usual" and maybe "sinful" ways?

The point I realized after enough of that was that faith is fragile... it can't exist without support from others. Of course, I know think that faith itself is worthless (no offence). Faith is believing in something for NO good reason; that is, no evidence at all to support it. It's extremely illogical to have faith in ANYTHING, since all faith is blind.

You are a rational person, and I think that your thoughts are catching up to the small portion of your brain that keeps the "faith" part going. I know you want to "shore up" your faith, but I think it would be great for everyone to drop the faith thing altogether. Believe in what you believe for a GOOD reason; I'm an atheist because that is the DEFAULT position for belief in gods when absolutely NO evidence shows they exist. Keep thinking about your beliefs critically, and you may change your mind.

[Atonement]

No, my beliefs never change, its the strength of which I believe in them. If that makes sense. With faith comes responsibility to keep it strong. And when ones faith is weak, a community to support it will help build it up again. Which is essential. ( no need to respond)

[MisterAndrews]

You ask why some religions put down another because no one can know their faith is right.

This statement is wrong. Christians believe they can prove the existence of god, simply by saying it's "faith" Satanists can prove their faith because there is nothing in that religion that can't be proved, unless your Theistic satanist, and in that case you're probably just rebeling against Christianity, which is by all means pointless. Luciferians have the same case, they 'can't' be wrong because they believe in nothing that can't be proved. People of paganism belief - Left hand or Right hand faiths usually can justify what they say against Christianity because that's where a lot of them come from, they realized the flaws in the religion, and were intelligent enough to realize that they shouldn't be held back by a ever-loving yet ever-limiting "God". Most of them searched out other religions and studied them, the ones who did this can put up intelligent debates against Christianity by using logic, anyone who isn't a devout Christian can understand these debates. The Devout Christians try to block out what they say by claiming they haven't read the bible right - Or misinterpreted it. Or even that they are just idiots or stupid and just insult them.

To a couple of you it will seem like i just HATE Rayne with all my soul... this is not true :-) But everything seems to turn into hatred of christianity! Please Rayne, can you describe some of the 'flaws of christianity' for me? Then i'll understand where all the hate has come from. Thanks.

And can ANYONE tell me exactly what a Luciferian is please? I typed it into google but all i got was how much they hate christianity, something about magic and some dark symbols :-S

Again, this is not a dig, but now im REALLY curious!

[Neverender]

And can ANYONE tell me exactly what a Luciferian is please? I typed it into google but all i got was how much they hate christianity, something about magic and some dark symbols :-S

A luciferian is a satanist. A believer of Lucifer/Satan as their God, and they hate our God and don't want to be sent to him as much as christians don't want to be sent to hell. Except luciferians are not as associatedly evil as satanists because they are identified with Saint Lucifer, and not the demon god itself.

[MisterAndrews]

Ah right... Thats why they talk about our god as we talk about satan, that makes sense. Thanks :-)

[CaptainObvious]

A luciferian is a satanist. A believer of Lucifer/Satan as their God, and they hate our God and don't want to be sent to him as much as christians don't want to be sent to hell. Except luciferians are not as associatedly evil as satanists because they are identified with Saint Lucifer, and not the demon god itself.

Wrong. Don't try to answer for a religion you quite obviously know nothing about. Luciferianism (and Satanism, for that matter) are much more complex than worshipping Satan and hating God.

[rsc4life]

I need to change my vote from Agnostic to Christian.

[ShatteredGlass]

You know which religion is rite when you give it an honest try and you get proof.

I'm christian and I have gotten that proof.
And idk y ppl criticize another faith rather than bringing the proof that their religion is correct, my guess is they have none.

[Oblivion]

You know which religion is rite when you give it an honest try and you get proof.

I'm christian and I have gotten that proof.
And idk y ppl criticize another faith rather than bringing the proof that their religion is correct, my guess is they have none.

You just said that no other faith has proof, which is extremely rude, yet you say you don't get why others criticize faiths?

And you didn't respect my lack of religion when you tried to convert me.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

You know which religion is rite when you give it an honest try and you get proof.

I'm christian and I have gotten that proof.
And idk y ppl criticize another faith rather than bringing the proof that their religion is correct, my guess is they have none.

You say that you have proof, yet you still call it faith. I critisize faith for a good reason; faith is believing in something WITHOUT evidence or reason to do so. So why wouldn't I critisize it when people make decisions or act according to faith?

My guess is that your proof was insubstantial to actually support your beliefs, if put under the same scrutiny as you put others.

Faith is NOT a good thing. Since when did it become honorable or noble to be known for making choices based on a LACK of evidence or reason to believe in something.... yet you believe it anyway?

[MisterAndrews]

up above me is a VERY good, well thought out argument against religion. But faith is much deeper than you make out. I believe in God. Now, if you ask me WHY i believe in God i could not even begin to give you an answer, because i don't know. What i do know is that i'm pretty certain that he does exist. And what i like to say to people is that God cannot be proved or disproved. Believers have nothing to lose, because if he is real we have pleased him, and if isn't there is nothing, so we wont know we were wrong :-D

I bet if Jesus came knocking on your door, with the nail marks from the cross, you would believe.
'You believe because you have seen. Blesséd are those who have NOT seen and yet believe'
THAT is the definition of faith.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

up above me is a VERY good, well thought out argument against religion. But faith is much deeper than you make out. I believe in God. Now, if you ask me WHY i believe in God i could not even begin to give you an answer, because i don't know. What i do know is that i'm pretty certain that he does exist. And what i like to say to people is that God cannot be proved or disproved. Believers have nothing to lose, because if he is real we have pleased him, and if isn't there is nothing, so we wont know we were wrong :-D

I bet if Jesus came knocking on your door, with the nail marks from the cross, you would believe.
'You believe because you have seen. Blesséd are those who have NOT seen and yet believe'
THAT is the definition of faith.


So you believe, without knowing WHY you believe, but you are CERTAIN nontheless? Then you bring up Pascal's Wager, where its "better to believe" because if you're right you go to heaven, and if you're wrong you just cease to exist (i.e. nothing after death).

However, that is a flawed argument. If you say that, then you have to ask yourself THIS question, what if YOUR religion is wrong? There are thousands of religions, and if you die and meet Shiva or Allah, they won't be happy I assure you. Gods do NOT have to be disproved, its up to the BELIEVERS to prove that their god exists, because THEY are the ones who are making the claim that their god is real.

Your definition of faith at the end is false, that is just a way that faith is validated by religion; for SOME reason you are supposed to be "blessed" for believing in something that you have absolutely no proof whether it exists or not. In any OTHER situation in life, faith is stupid, and a bad method of making choices. So why does religion get the free ride, so to speak?

If I saw a man with nails in his hands at my door, I'd be calling the local asylum to pick him up. He'd have to do much more than "show up" to proof his divinity to me. Mind you, I was a Christian for 14 years, and have seen the flaws in my thinking back then, when I took things "on faith".

[phish]

Atheist why well the idea that a 1,500 year old text that is full of holes and has bin disproven has all the answers is stupid. If I found a 1,500 year old text in the middle east some where and said it was the answer to everything I would be called a idiot and crazy and the media would tare me limb from limb And religion has caused more death and damage then anything else EVER just to name a few WW2,september 11th,war in iraq,ect.

[shadostreet]

i believe what i believe but people have to live and let live...

[Jean Poutine]

I believe in logos, and I believe in an higher power.

Christian/Islamic/Jewish God? Maybe. Maybe not. Who knows?

I try to lead my life according to philosophical principles instead of theological ones. It's been working pretty well.

[Anthony.]

Delete

[ThatCanadianGuy]

However, as I collect a massive amount of research on religion I am probably going to end up agnostic.

Many religions are contradictory so until I find a religion that is perfect I will not believe in not one of them. :yes:

ALL religions are contradictory, to other religions and to themselves. Agnostic isn't a position though, you're either a theist (believe in god) or an atheist. Agnosticism just defines your level of knowledge. For example, I'm an agnostic atheist because I don't know 100% that any time of supreme entity might exist somewhere in the universe. HOWEVER, I'm a gnostic atheist in regards to the abrahamic religions (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism) because I have KNOWLEDGE (the definition of gnosticism) that compells me with a very high degree of certainty that ALL religions and gods that have been made up by humans are EXACTLY that... just made up!

[MisterAndrews]

i believe what i believe but people have to live and let live...
I agree. We shouldn't put down peoples' beliefs, it's wrong to say that what they believe it crap.



So you believe, without knowing WHY you believe, but you are CERTAIN nontheless? Then you bring up Pascal's Wager, where its "better to believe" because if you're right you go to heaven, and if you're wrong you just cease to exist (i.e. nothing after death).

However, that is a flawed argument. If you say that, then you have to ask yourself THIS question, what if YOUR religion is wrong? There are thousands of religions, and if you die and meet Shiva or Allah, they won't be happy I assure you.

...............

Your definition of faith at the end is false, that is just a way that faith is validated by religion; for SOME reason you are supposed to be "blessed" for believing in something that you have absolutely no proof whether it exists or not. In any OTHER situation in life, faith is stupid, and a bad method of making choices. So why does religion get the free ride, so to speak?

If I saw a man with nails in his hands at my door, I'd be calling the local asylum to pick him up. He'd have to do much more than "show up" to proof his divinity to me. Mind you, I was a Christian for 14 years, and have seen the flaws in my thinking back then, when I took things "on faith".


Well firstly, as a christian i believe that there is one God. This God has many names and appears in many forms. So actually, I believe that we are all going to the same place, with 'all' of our gods there.

Secondly, Faith means unquestioning belief. Because of this, it is a very personal thing and i think it is wrong to tell people that it is wrong. The paragraph about faith in my last post was not a definition. I have just told you the definition and what i said last post was actually an example of how people show 'unquestioning belief'. And how can you accuse me of saying things without proof? You have no proof that Allah will be angry with me, yet you just said above that he will be...

Lastly, it is fine to put across your point of view, but I think that you need to be a bit more careful what you say. People believe that 'the man with nails in his hands' is the son of God and you making a casual joke about it is quite offensive. Try to put your point across without laughing at what other people believe.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

I agree. We shouldn't put down peoples' beliefs, it's wrong to say that what they believe it crap.






Well firstly, as a christian i believe that there is one God. This God has many names and appears in many forms. So actually, I believe that we are all going to the same place, with 'all' of our gods there.

Secondly, Faith means unquestioning belief. Because of this, it is a very personal thing and i think it is wrong to tell people that it is wrong. The paragraph about faith in my last post was not a definition. I have just told you the definition and what i said last post was actually an example of how people show 'unquestioning belief'. And how can you accuse me of saying things without proof? You have no proof that Allah will be angry with me, yet you just said above that he will be...

Lastly, it is fine to put across your point of view, but I think that you need to be a bit more careful what you say. People believe that 'the man with nails in his hands' is the son of God and you making a casual joke about it is quite offensive. Try to put your point across without laughing at what other people believe.


I used to believe in the exact same thing; so I know where christians are coming from, and for the most part "why" they believe what they do. You can't justify your belief that EVERYONE will go to heaven but see their own version of god, like saying Hindus will see Shiva and go to their own heaven. You can't believe that really, because you'd be breaking some Commandments, and making God VERY ANGRY. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". What does that mean? IF ANYONE believes in a god that isn't YOUR GOD. They go to hell. You can't try and reconcile you're "nice version" of God with what you believe he teaches in the Bible. The BOOK you believe in tells you straight up, that if you don't believe in this god, he WILL send you to hell. So... better luck next time?

I don't try to make my opinions of religion "nice" even though that may come across as offensive. I find the tenets of Christianity to be VERY offensive to me, so we're on equal footing really. It's hard for me to not make fun of something that I find so blatantly wrong. Sorry to be blunt; I'll try to keep the "name-calling" of deities to a minimum, which really is hard when I'm talking about a god that supports slavery, genocide, rape, killing babies etc.

But that is a discussion you probably DON'T want to hear me explain.^^^

[phish]

Well for one religion has killed more people and done more bad then anything else EVER just to name a few WW2,9/11,war in the middle east,ect yeah you get it. And the idea of god is stupid you think some power made the world 3,000 years ago. People saying I did not come from a monkey are fools since for one apes and monkeys are not the same for 2 you think you are smarter then darwin ha DNA has proved him right. There is no such thing as a jew child or any religion child that is a label the parents put on the child and said here you are a jew they really don't think that.

My mother was raised in a atheist family and asked her father about god and he offered to take her to church and she did and he gave her a choice and she gave me a choice.

G to richerddawkins.net

[ManyPearTree]

Well for one religion has killed more people and done more bad then anything else EVER just to name a few WW2,9/11,war in the middle east,ect yeah you get it. And the idea of god is stupid you think some power made the world 3,000 years ago. People saying I did not come from a monkey are fools since for one apes and monkeys are not the same for 2 you think you are smarter then darwin ha DNA has proved him right. There is no such thing as a jew child or any religion child that is a label the parents put on the child and said here you are a jew they really don't think that.

My mother was raised in a atheist family and asked her father about god and he offered to take her to church and she did and he gave her a choice and she gave me a choice.

G to richerddawkins.netamen

[MisterAndrews]

Just to clarify, I didnt say that i believed in many gods... i said there is ONE god that takes many forms so.... better luck next time?

I see where atheists come from and I realise that it can be dispoved more than proved, but atheists don't seem to be as accepting towards my beliefs as i am of theirs. If we are going to debate, please can someone say something other than 'there's no proof'?

I will say something. Everyone says there is no proof, but there is. You can find proof if you study miracles, things which scientists say 'that CANNOT have happened'. And actually the world wasnt created 3,000 years ago. It was created millions of years ago. Genesis 1 is actually a story to explain evolution. But, what put the correct elements there to create the big bang?

[ThatCanadianGuy]

[QUOTE=iamvampire;441805]Just to clarify, I didnt say that i believed in many gods... i said there is ONE god that takes many forms so.... better luck next time?
QUOTE]

I shouldn't have to repeat myself. I JUST SAID why that is wrong. Your god cannot "take many forms" in the sense that he can't "look like other gods". He SAYS in your Bible that you shall not worship any other gods. Period.

I don't have to debate by just saying "there's no proof". There IS NO PROOF. I can go beyond that, and say why the claims that religions make are false, but no proof has been presented. NONE. Give me an example of a "miracle" that all the scientists in the world say that they can't explain.

The earth formed roughly 4.54 BILLION years ago due to natural processes. The big bang happened 13.7 billion years ago, and we're honest when we say that we don't know a whole lot about it. HOWEVER, experiments such as the LHC in Switzerland are bringing us closer to getting the answers. Just sitting around saying "god did it" doesn't make us learn ANYTHING.

You should actually study what the big bang theory IS before you insert your god into it.

[theOperaGhost]

And I'm still puzzled as to why anyone cares how or why we were created. Kind of pointless to study that in my opinion. Why can't people just live their life. We're born, we live for a few years, we die....simple as that.

[Oblivion]

And I'm still puzzled as to why anyone cares how or why we were created. Kind of pointless to study that in my opinion. Why can't people just live their life. We're born, we live for a few years, we die....simple as that.

People just need to have some reason for being here.
That's why religion was created.

[MisterAndrews]

I shouldn't have to repeat myself. I JUST SAID why that is wrong. Your god cannot "take many forms" in the sense that he can't "look like other gods". He SAYS in your Bible that you shall not worship any other gods. Period.

I don't have to debate by just saying "there's no proof". There IS NO PROOF. I can go beyond that, and say why the claims that religions make are false, but no proof has been presented. NONE. Give me an example of a "miracle" that all the scientists in the world say that they can't explain.

The earth formed roughly 4.54 BILLION years ago due to natural processes. The big bang happened 13.7 billion years ago, and we're honest when we say that we don't know a whole lot about it. HOWEVER, experiments such as the LHC in Switzerland are bringing us closer to getting the answers. Just sitting around saying "god did it" doesn't make us learn ANYTHING.

You should actually study what the big bang theory IS before you insert your god into it.

1) ''My God'' can take many forms in the sense that no one really knows what he looks like. We only have drawings to illustrate God but we don't really know what makes him up. Theists say that 'God can do anything that it is logical for God to do.' It would be possible for him to take many forms so as to appeal to different cultures on the planet.

2) You miss my point with the big bang. If we don't know much about the Big Bang then whats to say that God didn't start it? Something must have put the conditions in place to create the big bang. How can you discount God if you know nothing of it?

3) A miracle: http://olrl.org/stories/lourdes.shtml

Above is the story of Gabriel Gargam. Have a read.


4) I count the above as some proof for the existance of God. Can you give me some proof that he does not exsist?

[ThatCanadianGuy]

1) ''My God'' can take many forms in the sense that no one really knows what he looks like. We only have drawings to illustrate God but we don't really know what makes him up. Theists say that 'God can do anything that it is logical for God to do.' It would be possible for him to take many forms so as to appeal to different cultures on the planet.

2) You miss my point with the big bang. If we don't know much about the Big Bang then whats to say that God didn't start it? Something must have put the conditions in place to create the big bang. How can you discount God if you know nothing of it?

3) A miracle: http://olrl.org/stories/lourdes.shtml

Above is the story of Gabriel Gargam. Have a read.


4) I count the above as some proof for the existance of God. Can you give me some proof that he does not exsist?


1) I'm not going to repeat myself for a THIRD TIME.

2) "Something must have put the conditions in place to create the big bang". HOW? You can't see how it could happen naturally, so you say "god did it" just because that's an easy answer. The big bang wasn't the "creation" of the universe anyway, it was just the universe expanding from a singularity very rapidly, and cooling off in the process. How can YOU say god did it when you have no idea how the big bang works, and what steps are being taken to ACTUALLY figure it out?

3) Your story is over 150 years old, and nowhere do I see any proof of a miracle. The story is very inspiring, but doesn't go towards proving the existence of god; much like cancer "miraculously going away" this is one of those conditions that can on VERY RARE occaisions heal itself. Until you definitively prove that GOD had anything to do with it, all you have is hearsay. The place where this man supposedly healed has thousands of visitors each year nowadays to get healed by God. Why aren't there ANY miracle healings anymore? Doesn't god care about all these NEW people with similar injuries?

4) I'm not the one making the positive claim here. I don't HAVE TO prove that he doesn't exist. The burden of proof is on YOU, since you are the one that is claiming that he DOES exist. You haven't proven that god exists yet, and no one before you has either.

[phish]

Just to clarify, I didnt say that i believed in many gods... i said there is ONE god that takes many forms so.... better luck next time?

I see where atheists come from and I realise that it can be dispoved more than proved, but atheists don't seem to be as accepting towards my beliefs as i am of theirs. If we are going to debate, please can someone say something other than 'there's no proof'?

I will say something. Everyone says there is no proof, but there is. You can find proof if you study miracles, things which scientists say 'that CANNOT have happened'. And actually the world wasnt created 3,000 years ago. It was created millions of years ago. Genesis 1 is actually a story to explain evolution. But, what put the correct elements there to create the big bang?




You are a fool no the world was not created 3,000 years ago it was created billions of years ago smarty.

amen



And another thing he bible was not writen till 500 AD and was passed down for 500 years people can not keep a story right for a eek never mind a book for 500 years. And the bible was edited to look how the vatican wanted to look around 500 AD.

Posts merged. Please use the edit button instead of double posting. Also, please don't insult members. ~thePianoMan


I would make one post but how do you dobble quote?

[MisterAndrews]

You are a fool no the world was not created 3,000 years ago it was created billions of years ago smarty.

If you read closely you'll see that I said the world WASNT created 3,000 years ago....
Maybe you should read the posts properly before you try to insult someone elses intelligence?



And another thing he bible was not writen till 500 AD and was passed down for 500 years people can not keep a story right for a eek never mind a book for 500 years. And the bible was edited to look how the vatican wanted to look around 500 AD.

Im sure that by post 87 you must know not to double post... use the edit button.



1) I'm not going to repeat myself for a THIRD TIME.

2) "Something must have put the conditions in place to create the big bang". HOW? You can't see how it could happen naturally, so you say "god did it" just because that's an easy answer. The big bang wasn't the "creation" of the universe anyway, it was just the universe expanding from a singularity very rapidly, and cooling off in the process. How can YOU say god did it when you have no idea how the big bang works, and what steps are being taken to ACTUALLY figure it out?

3) Your story is over 150 years old, and nowhere do I see any proof of a miracle. The story is very inspiring, but doesn't go towards proving the existence of god; much like cancer "miraculously going away" this is one of those conditions that can on VERY RARE occaisions heal itself. Until you definitively prove that GOD had anything to do with it, all you have is hearsay. The place where this man supposedly healed has thousands of visitors each year nowadays to get healed by God. Why aren't there ANY miracle healings anymore? Doesn't god care about all these NEW people with similar injuries?

4) I'm not the one making the positive claim here. I don't HAVE TO prove that he doesn't exist. The burden of proof is on YOU, since you are the one that is claiming that he DOES exist. You haven't proven that god exists yet, and no one before you has either.

1) you continue to miss the point so i'll drop that one.

2) Tell me what caused the universe to expand rapidly.

3) I don't know how to answer that. Nothing in this world is definate, so i can't prove that God did it and you can't prove that he did not. Can we agree on that??

4) You could at least have given an arguement to disprove the theory of God.... not just say that i have no proof, which you have already said a thousand times...

[ThatCanadianGuy]

1) you continue to miss the point so i'll drop that one.

2) Tell me what caused the universe to expand rapidly.

3) I don't know how to answer that. Nothing in this world is definate, so i can't prove that God did it and you can't prove that he did not. Can we agree on that??

4) You could at least have given an arguement to disprove the theory of God.... not just say that i have no proof, which you have already said a thousand times...

1) I guess you're going to remain willfully ignorant of this point; the BOOK that you READ that you believe is the WORD OF GOD, says that you SHALL NOT worship "false gods" or any gods that are NOT SPECIFICALLY the judeo-christian god. That means Hindus and Bhuddists.... they're going to hell. Nice god.

2) WE DON'T KNOW WHY. We can actually ADMIT that. And guess what? We're actually trying to figure out what caused the universe to expand RIGHT NOW. If we just threw up our hands and said "oh well, god did it" then we haven't learned ANYTHING or come any closer to discovering the ACTUAL truth.

3) We can't agree on this, since your logic for the BASIS of the disagreement is faulty to begin with. I DO NOT have to prove that "god did NOT do it" because you haven't even proven that god EXISTS!!!! How many times can I say that with just different sentences! You have to stop making the claim that your non-evident god does these things when you are unable to provide a SINGLE scrap of good, reliable evidence.

4) There is NO "theory of god". You cheapen the definition of a "theory" when you say that. The scientific structural framework in biology that uses facts and evidence to explain common descent and the diversity of life is known as the theory of evolution, which has been observed to occur, making it not only a theory, but a FACT (see: theory of gravity). The "theory of god" has no evidence or facts whatsoever to support it. That doesn't even classify as a HYPOTHESIS. It's a wild and uneducated GUESS at the very best.

[dyslexiaa]

I don't intend to get in an argument about my religious beliefs, so I'll just answer some questions and try and reason some things out. I don't know if I'll even check this topic again.

EDIT: In the end, neither of us will win by arguing. I can't make anyone believe in God and they can't make me not believe in God. What I will try to say is that Christianity and religion in general isn't the demon that everyone makes it out to be. While some Christians are the Rush-Limbaugh, Republican Party fundamentalists, not all of us are. The teachings of Jesus were mainly to love and accept one another! Science and religion can coexist. Science can answer the 'how' questions but not the 'why's and it's opposite for religion and spirituality. I personally believe that there is something special about this existence that is beyond our understanding.

I consider myself a liberal Christian.

I used to believe in the exact same thing; so I know where christians are coming from, and for the most part "why" they believe what they do. You can't justify your belief that EVERYONE will go to heaven but see their own version of god, like saying Hindus will see Shiva and go to their own heaven. You can't believe that really, because you'd be breaking some Commandments, and making God VERY ANGRY. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". What does that mean? IF ANYONE believes in a god that isn't YOUR GOD. They go to hell. You can't try and reconcile you're "nice version" of God with what you believe he teaches in the Bible. The BOOK you believe in tells you straight up, that if you don't believe in this god, he WILL send you to hell. So... better luck next time?

I understand that you're trying to criticize the fundamentalist view of Christianity, but it's not all like that. I consider the Bible to be the will of God and not the direct word of God. By understanding the tribal context the Bible was written in, you can decipher what the passages mean and put it into a modern context. I was an athiest (devoutly, if you can find my post a billion pages back) but I've had quite a few life changing moments over the past three or four months.

I recommend listening to John Shelby Spong, a lot of his views correspond to mine and I think you'll enjoy hearing him speak even as an athiest.

Well for one religion has killed more people and done more bad then anything else EVER just to name a few WW2,9/11,war in the middle east,ect yeah you get it. And the idea of god is stupid you think some power made the world 3,000 years ago. People saying I did not come from a monkey are fools since for one apes and monkeys are not the same for 2 you think you are smarter then darwin ha DNA has proved him right. There is no such thing as a jew child or any religion child that is a label the parents put on the child and said here you are a jew they really don't think that.

My mother was raised in a atheist family and asked her father about god and he offered to take her to church and she did and he gave her a choice and she gave me a choice.

G to richerddawkins.net

The ideas of creationism and biblical creation of the world are outdated. It was written by the Israelites to make sense of the world around them. The Bible wasn't meant to be read as a historical document but as a spritual guide. Many athiests make the mistake that all Christians think the Bible is a historical document and everything happened literally.

Religion, while the cause of many wars, is not even close to major source of bloodshed. Greed and the need for power fuels violence more than religion does.

Dawkins alone is not someone you should quote to support your beliefs, in my opinion.

[MisterAndrews]

I think that 'dyslexiaa' is very wise on just stating his beliefs so i'm going to back out of this argument.

There is no point in trying to explain a belief to someone who can only see that they are right so im taking the moral highground so to speak and saying i respect your views, i know you don't but hope you will learn to repect other peoples even though they are contrary to yours.

I don't wish to argue anymore

[Perseus]

Calm down TCG, he doesnt know NOT to argue w/ you. And also Dyslexia has a point towards the Bible being a spirtual guide not for history guide.

[Oblivion]

Just reminding everyone, this is Ramblings of the Wise- the debate forum
If you don't wish to debate, don't post.

[phish]

If you read closely you'll see that I said the world WASNT created 3,000 years ago....
Maybe you should read the posts properly before you try to insult someone elses intelligence?





Im sure that by post 87 you must know not to double post... use the edit button.





1) you continue to miss the point so i'll drop that one.

2) Tell me what caused the universe to expand rapidly.

3) I don't know how to answer that. Nothing in this world is definate, so i can't prove that God did it and you can't prove that he did not. Can we agree on that??

4) You could at least have given an arguement to disprove the theory of God.... not just say that i have no proof, which you have already said a thousand times...



I said he was a fool because the world was not created 3,000 years ago nor millions of years ago it was billions of years ago.

[MisterAndrews]

Just reminding everyone, this is Ramblings of the Wise- the debate forum
If you don't wish to debate, don't post.

Very true, but there is a difference between debating and arguing and theres a world of difference between debating and telling someone point blank that they are wrong....

[Oblivion]

Debate:
To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.
To engage in a formal discussion or argument. See synonyms at discuss.

Essentially debating is arguing.
And telling someone they are wrong is the point of debate, correct?
Telling someone they are right wouldn't make much sense.
If you'd like to debate more on this PM me.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

Essentially debating is arguing.
And telling someone they are wrong is the point of debate, correct?
Telling someone they are right wouldn't make much sense.
If you'd like to debate more on this PM me.

QFT

I haven't encountered a single "good" argument so far; but then again when people have beliefs that are inherently irrational/unreasonable... its near impossible to USE logic and reasoned arguments to SHOW them why they are wrong... since their default position is illogical to begin with.

[dyslexiaa]

I haven't encountered a single "good" argument so far; but then again when people have beliefs that are inherently irrational/unreasonable... its near impossible to USE logic and reasoned arguments to SHOW them why they are wrong... since their default position is illogical to begin with.

When I was speculating my religious beliefs, a large part of my conversion to a theistic view was because of this website. It is a Christian website that will answer many of the 'biblical contradictions' you and many other athiests here have. A lot of the views the website are a little more fundamentalist than the things that I believe.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/

You will most likely be unphased because you've never experienced anything that you've felt beyond yourself and logic, but the website offers some insight into Christianity that can be accessible beyond Christians. It has a lot of scientific and psychological perspectives on things. I feel that you'll get more answers out of it than you will from some teenagers on a forum that haven't fully explored their spirituality (or lack therof.)

Other websites I recommend to make you think Christianity isn't some destructive force:
http://www.explorefaith.org/faith/index.php
http://www.youtube.com/user/livingthequestions
http://www.tcpc.org/template/index.cfm

My intentions here aren't to prove God, but merely to offer some sources that can answer questions better than a bunch of teenagers can. My hopes with this post is to shed a better light of what Christianity can and should be.

If you have questions, I'll try my best to answer them from my viewpoint.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

1)You will most likely be unphased because you've never experienced anything that you've felt beyond yourself and logic,

2)insight into Christianity that can be accessible beyond Christians. It has a lot of scientific and psychological perspectives on things.

3)Other websites I recommend to make you think Christianity isn't some destructive force:
.

1) I was a devout Christian for roughly 14 years; I've "experienced" just about everything you could imagine in terms of what you'd call "beyond yourself" which was a tad condescending I might add :P

I just looked back on the experiences critically and understood what was actually happening with things like speaking in tongues etc.

2)There are NO scientific perspectives coming out of Christianity, it is a philosophical/religious belief system. But I know all about apologetics, don't worry, and I've even seen some of those websites before.

3)Christianity HAS proven to be one of the MOST destructive forces in human history for the last several thousand years. If you were a bible literalist you could even call "god" the biggest killer, seeing as he supposedly flooded the whole WORLD remember? lol!

More people have suffered and died in the name of religion than any other man-made cause... which is what religion is (MAN made).

I only have ONE website suggestion for you that I think you'd find extremely enlightening; it gives a complete list of apologetic arguements for Christianity/Creationism and fully refutes them all.

http://talkorigins.org/indexcc/

go there if you dare, it may cause extreme cases of doubt in dogmatic belief :D

[The Batman]

Here's what I have to say. I believe in god I always have and I always will, but I do not like the whole if you believe in god this way go here, if not go there. Also I don't believe that the church should get involved in politics at all. I believe in the seperation of church and state, and that church's shouldn't be able to do certain things. If religion was more accepting and inviting then it wouldn't be hard for everyone to want to come to church and to have a lot of faith, it's when the preacher starts preaching on gay rights and how it's another form of the devil or how you can't be a christian and vote for one guy. I was never a religious person and I never really liked going to church so it's not hard for me to stop going to a church if I don't believe what the preacher is saying. IT's stuff like that that puts people off of religion and if the church would focus more on accepting everyone for who they are instead of getting their pockets full then there wouldn't be so many problems.

[BuryYourFlame]

1) I was a devout Christian for roughly 14 years; I've "experienced" just about everything you could imagine in terms of what you'd call "beyond yourself" which was a tad condescending I might add :P

I just looked back on the experiences critically and understood what was actually happening with things like speaking in tongues etc.

2)There are NO scientific perspectives coming out of Christianity, it is a philosophical/religious belief system. But I know all about apologetics, don't worry, and I've even seen some of those websites before.

3)Christianity HAS proven to be one of the MOST destructive forces in human history for the last several thousand years. If you were a bible literalist you could even call "god" the biggest killer, seeing as he supposedly flooded the whole WORLD remember? lol!

More people have suffered and died in the name of religion than any other man-made cause... which is what religion is (MAN made).

I only have ONE website suggestion for you that I think you'd find extremely enlightening; it gives a complete list of apologetic arguements for Christianity/Creationism and fully refutes them all.

http://talkorigins.org/indexcc/

go there if you dare, it may cause extreme cases of doubt in dogmatic belief :D

ok here i go:

1) if you have now turned back on your beliefs then you have NOT experienced all of what Christianity is about.

2) Christianity isn't meant to tell us exactly what happened, only God would know that, we are only humans, He is God, we would not be able to comprehend His methods of creation. Another thing, the "Big Bang" also has a major flaw: where did that first point come from, you know...the one that "exploded on accident"

3) Yes, many people have died because of their beliefs and many have also killed others because of their beliefs, true Christianity is not about violence, it is about peace and love, but like with any situation, there are those who take it too far. As for Noah and the flood, yes God did kill the entire population of the Earth exept for 8 people, but there was good reason. If you are making a wooden carving, but something goes wrong in the process, you take away what must be taken away, and leave what you can. Genisis 6:5a, "The Lord saw how great man's wickedness on the Earth had become."

I did go to that site that you recommended...and i did not find anything that shook my faith, barely nudged it.

PM me if you want to debate further,

Declan

[ThatCanadianGuy]

ok here i go:

1) if you have now turned back on your beliefs then you have NOT experienced all of what Christianity is about.

2) Christianity isn't meant to tell us exactly what happened, only God would know that, we are only humans, He is God, we would not be able to comprehend His methods of creation. Another thing, the "Big Bang" also has a major flaw: where did that first point come from, you know...the one that "exploded on accident"

3) Yes, many people have died because of their beliefs and many have also killed others because of their beliefs, true Christianity is not about violence, it is about peace and love, but like with any situation, there are those who take it too far. As for Noah and the flood, yes God did kill the entire population of the Earth exept for 8 people, but there was good reason. If you are making a wooden carving, but something goes wrong in the process, you take away what must be taken away, and leave what you can. Genisis 6:5a, "The Lord saw how great man's wickedness on the Earth had become."

I did go to that site that you recommended...and i did not find anything that shook my faith, barely nudged it.

PM me if you want to debate further,

Declan

1) That's the no true scotsman fallacy; you have no idea what I experienced, yet you can't EVER understand that people can actually HAVE the "true experience" and look back and see it for what it really was.

2) Go do some research on Big Bang Theory, I don't have time to explain it for the over 9000th time.

3) The flood never happened. I could write many pages explaining why it was impossible, but I'm just for NOW going to adress your MORAL problem. You just made that answer, and didn't think it was in the least bit EVIL to kill an entire world of people. There is NO way that you can rationalize the murder of an entire planet and say that is something a "good" god would do. Many thousands of babies died in the flood (which never actually happened) and you fail to SEE how fucked up that is. Humanity is not some stupid wood carving; there is certainly MORE "evil" in the world now then their was back then, I doubt the innocent babies deserved to be drowned like that. Your god supposedly created ALL of mankind and because "god knows everything" he ALREADY KNEW that people would become evil, and KNEW beforehand that he'd KILL THEM ALL. That is an evil, amoral god, who doesn't deserve anybody's worship.

Check out the site's section on the Flood to see what's wrong with it from a scientific standpoint. Here I'm just arguing the moral case for why it would be SO WRONG for a supposedly loving god to do this. You simply can't rationalize his "image" with the systematic murder of an entire WORLD that he KNEW would "go bad" to BEGIN with. That's evil, and I'd like to hope that most people are above worshiping those kinds of "morals".

[Perseus]

Actually TCG, the flood did happen, the History channel talked but I didnt watch all of it, so more might of happen.

[MisterAndrews]

ok here i go:
2) Christianity isn't meant to tell us exactly what happened, only God would know that, we are only humans, He is God, we would not be able to comprehend His methods of creation. Another thing, the "Big Bang" also has a major flaw: where did that first point come from, you know...the one that "exploded on accident"


The above is EXACTLY what i was trying to say. We can read up on the big bang theory over and over and over and over again until we know everything that has been discovered but something must have started it.

In example. When you light a gas cooker you turn on the gas and then add a spark so that the gas will ignite. Correct? If you lit the gas did not add the spark then nothing would happen. So, what we are trying to debate here is WHAT added the spark to start the universe. SOMETHING must have put this universe into existance and then have brought it to the point that the earth was created. What started the unvierse off?


And on a similar note: Who or what created the first living organism. Surely an inaminate object cannot just evolve into something living?

[alsoknownas]

Well many think God is some kind of magnificent person who lives in another dimension that gave us life, personally I cant believe that.

I go down the scientific route however I don't throw God aside.
you hear of people finding god or Jesus in prison and so on (don't know what Jesus is doing in prison I thought he was a good lad)!:D

on a serious note God to me is a mental thing.
Its a part of the brain that leads us to believe in a powerful figure that can give us strength and will power, someone to keep us safe in times of danger and lend us help in times of need.

I think its a way of our minds to trick ourselves into making things happen.
you hear of people giving up drugs thanks to god
I think its their brain going to this place giving them this belief in a God which takes the mind away from the craving.

We think we understand the brain but how can we understand the thing that controls us.
how can you study something that controls you and makes you who you are.

God is inside all of us and is where we go in times of low down.
It gives us someone to blame when someone we love dies
Gives us strength in times of weakness
gives us hope in times of despair.
gives us a light at the end of a tunnel to reach.

Did god make the earth, did it make us?
No I think we all are god

anyway the people in white coats are here to give me my pills:yes::D

[dyslexiaa]

1) I was a devout Christian for roughly 14 years; I've "experienced" just about everything you could imagine in terms of what you'd call "beyond yourself" which was a tad condescending I might add

I just looked back on the experiences critically and understood what was actually happening with things like speaking in tongues etc.

2)There are NO scientific perspectives coming out of Christianity, it is a philosophical/religious belief system. But I know all about apologetics, don't worry, and I've even seen some of those websites before.

I was more referring to how Christian beliefs can correspond and not fight with science. It all comes down to the question, 'why?' Science can't answer why. I assume you think there is no why and that there just is.

I believe that the question of 'why' has to be answered and I explore the answers through my spirituality.

3)Christianity HAS proven to be one of the MOST destructive forces in human history for the last several thousand years. If you were a bible literalist you could even call "god" the biggest killer, seeing as he supposedly flooded the whole WORLD remember? lol!

More people have suffered and died in the name of religion than any other man-made cause... which is what religion is (MAN made).

Perversion of Christian beliefs is one of the most destructive forces. The arrogance in one's beliefs is one of the most destructive forces in human history. Not loving your enemy is one of the most destructive forces in human history.

With every war, you can probably tie in human greed and the need for power to be the main source of it. My interpretation of Christianity is against both. Even if you remove religion completely, greed and the need for power are still there.

[Oblivion]

Here's what I have to say. I believe in god I always have and I always will, but I do not like the whole if you believe in god this way go here, if not go there. Also I don't believe that the church should get involved in politics at all. I believe in the seperation of church and state, and that church's shouldn't be able to do certain things. If religion was more accepting and inviting then it wouldn't be hard for everyone to want to come to church and to have a lot of faith, it's when the preacher starts preaching on gay rights and how it's another form of the devil or how you can't be a christian and vote for one guy. I was never a religious person and I never really liked going to church so it's not hard for me to stop going to a church if I don't believe what the preacher is saying. IT's stuff like that that puts people off of religion and if the church would focus more on accepting everyone for who they are instead of getting their pockets full then there wouldn't be so many problems.

I agree. I'm not christian, but i see where you're going.
When churches tell people to do stuff a certain way, heck, if anyone tells someone to do something a certain way, the people they condemn are put off.
And with the church being so powerful, the people who are 'right' really get affected. Straight people who vote for the 'right' person starts hating on gay people who vote for the 'wrong' person. Church causes so much hate, and so much prejudice, it really doesn't represent what christian people believe god is all about.

[The Batman]

There is nothing wrong with christianity and the bible. It's the people that corrupt it, they see what they want to see and they interpret it in the way that suits their lifestyle.

[Oblivion]

Thats what I meant. The church, or parts of church that corrupt Christianity, cause hatred and prejudice, and they twist their own, and others beliefs to discriminate.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

There is nothing wrong with christianity and the bible. It's the people that corrupt it, they see what they want to see and they interpret it in the way that suits their lifestyle.

What about the passages in the bible where God Himself condones slavery, genocide, baby-killing, rape, human sacrifice, and don't forget KILLS an entire planet with a ridiculous flood that completely contradicts the facts of Earth's geological history and makes the present diversity of life an impossibility. You can't "twist" your way out of the times god was by our standards quite an evil being.

[The Batman]

Yea but didn't Moses build an Arc and warn the people of the flood? When the Angels visited Soddom and Gomora didn't he go searching for religious people so he could save the town? Didn't he free the slaves? There's just as much good things in the bible as there is bad.

[MisterAndrews]

What about the passages in the bible where God Himself condones slavery, genocide, baby-killing, rape, human sacrifice, and don't forget KILLS an entire planet with a ridiculous flood that completely contradicts the facts of Earth's geological history and makes the present diversity of life an impossibility. You can't "twist" your way out of the times god was by our standards quite an evil being.

Well if you're going to throw bible passages at us please can you find them and put the reference down? Then im sure people (including me) will look at them. :-)

As for the flood contradicting the earth's history... If God created the world can he not manipulate it? God can do anything that it is logical for God to do. If he wanted to save a few religious people then surely he could make the world fit for them to live in again? Thats how you need to look at it.

[Perseus]

What I found funny is in theory I should be atheist because I love astrononmy and I love history, two things that basically support atheism but haha I believe in God for someone to look for guidance and hope for.

Well if you're going to throw bible passages at us please can you find them and put the reference down? Then im sure people (including me) will look at them. :-)

As for the flood contradicting the earth's history... If God created the world can he not manipulate it? God can do anything that it is logical for God to do. If he wanted to save a few religious people then surely he could make the world fit for them to live in again? Thats how you need to look at it.

Well........ if he wants to save religious people why wouldnt he do it now? I cant believe I just said that...

Please use the edit button instead of double posting. Posts merged. thePianoMan

[theOperaGhost]

Well if you're going to throw bible passages at us please can you find them and put the reference down? Then im sure people (including me) will look at them. :-)

As for the flood contradicting the earth's history... If God created the world can he not manipulate it? God can do anything that it is logical for God to do. If he wanted to save a few religious people then surely he could make the world fit for them to live in again? Thats how you need to look at it.


All I have to say is WOW. That is using religion and God to make everything perfect and fit your way of thinking. That way of thinking completely disregards the whole study of geology. If God can manipulate anything he wants, then why is the world in pretty much the worst condition it has EVER been in. Why isn't god doing anything to fix it and "save" the people who believe and worship him.

[Oblivion]

Jared he's punishing us for our sins. :rolleyes:
I find that argument so terribly ridiculous.
Why is there murder? Oh he's punishing us for our sins.
Why is there rape? See above
Why is there molesting and kidnapping? See above

So without that reason, can anyone tell me why there is any of that, if god is so great and wonderful?

[Perseus]

I have a question for you Shattered. If you were a god, would you punish people for sins by doing the same thing? Or would you do a different approach? Would you speak out and say "none of that now"? And also I would like to say I take back what I asked Iamvampire because I feel as though I was punsihed for what I said..( Only reason I added that is because I dont want to re-edit an edited psot by a mod, just to be safe)

[Oblivion]

If I were an almighty god that could do anything possible or impossible, I would make humans perfect in the first place.
Even if I mistakenly made some bad people, I would magically cleanse them.

[Perseus]

lol, magically cleanse them? God said that he wanted humans to have free will and and not make puppets of them.. so in my mind, I think it means that he's not going to interfere w/ good things but to give out warnings if you dont shape up, I will screw you over.

[Oblivion]

Why would he make bad people in the beginning?
And why punish people who are mentally insane?
Why would he let 'good' people suffer at the hands of his mistakes? Especially when he isn't doing anything? (Bad people won't wake up one day and say 'Wow, I realized God is right. If I do more bad, I'll go to hell' correct?)

[Perseus]

Some people do, Im sorta like that.. I mean seriously Im not bad, but when I go against God, I feel as im punsihed, like what I said in my other post.. I think that because right after that, I went to TCG's youtube channel and he's got some messed up video that I did not finsihed and im not good when it comes to messed up subjects like it was in that video.. I feel like that was my punishment for my going against God.. and also I might have to boogez on to my psp.. so yeah.. might not get many responses from me when I do.

[Oblivion]

You didn't answer answer any of my question except the last one in parenthesis. :huh:
Do you have an answer for any of them?

[Perseus]

Oh sorry.. I was ranting.. But I dont know is my final answer.

[theOperaGhost]

lol, magically cleanse them? God said that he wanted humans to have free will and and not make puppets of them.. so in my mind, I think it means that he's not going to interfere w/ good things but to give out warnings if you dont shape up, I will screw you over.

Since you said God gave us free will, you are disproving God is what the Bible tells us. Watch the video.
J5AO8CgWy4I
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5AO8CgWy4I&eurl=http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2720&feature=player_embedded)

[Perseus]

Actually I remember reading in the Bible He gave us freewill and didnt want to make puppets of us.
I see what the video is stating my i cannot finish this answer because i need to boogez.

[theOperaGhost]

Actually I remember reading in the Bible He gave us freewill and didnt want to make puppets of us.

Did you watch the video or do I have to lay it out for you?

According to the Bible, God is omnipotent and omniscient (all powerful and all knowing). So, either God didn't give us free will like the Bible says or he isn't omnipotent and omniscient. If he were omniscient, we wouldn't be able to have free will because there would have to be a "grand scheme" to things. If he is omniscient, he knows what is going to happen to all of us and our lives are predetermined, thus removing free will from our lives.

The video also says that if God is omniscient, he can't be omnipotent. Him being omniscient would mean he knows everything that will happen in the future, meaning he can't change it making him omnipotence false.

[Perseus]

Well I watched the video and well what if the two words were merged for the description of God?

[dyslexiaa]

According to the Bible, God is omnipotent and omniscient (all powerful and all knowing). So, either God didn't give us free will like the Bible says or he isn't omnipotent and omniscient. If he were omniscient, we wouldn't be able to have free will because there would have to be a "grand scheme" to things. If he is omniscient, he knows what is going to happen to all of us and our lives are predetermined, thus removing free will from our lives.

The video also says that if God is omniscient, he can't be omnipotent. Him being omniscient would mean he knows everything that will happen in the future, meaning he can't change it making him omnipotence false.

God is a being that is beyond our understanding. In my opinion, omnipotence covers the same area. We can't even begin to understand what omnipotence entails. Does it mean God can make something even he can't fix? Can he defy his own omniscience? Is it possible for him to be omnipotent and still allow for free will to exist?

We don't know the terms of it all.

And why punish people who are mentally insane?

From what I gather, people of other faiths, people who can't understand faith, and people who were never exposed to faith are all judged differently in the afterlife.

[The Batman]

Here's a bit of what I know about suffering. If god gave us everything in the world we needed why wouldn't we praise him or worship him? Well God puts us through things to see how strong our faith is. If you only praise god through your good times and never through your bad times then your not a true christian. The bible says that god will never put us through more than we can handle(somewhere in there). Suffering is more than just punishment for our sins it's a way for god to see if we are truly praising him for the right reasons. Read the story of Job for more insight.

Edit:
From what I gather, people of other faiths, people who can't understand faith, and people who were never exposed to faith are all judged differently in the afterlife.

From what I understand people who dont understand faith, like children and some mentally ill, will go to heaven and people who were never exposed to faith, like people who never knew anything about religion, will go to heaven. People of other religion I would imagine go to heaven but I'm not sure.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

All I have to say is WOW. That is using religion and God to make everything perfect and fit your way of thinking. That way of thinking completely disregards the whole study of geology. If God can manipulate anything he wants, then why is the world in pretty much the worst condition it has EVER been in. Why isn't god doing anything to fix it and "save" the people who believe and worship him.

QFT

Sorry, but your post (the one Jared responded to) is so fractally wrong that I don't know where to begin with it. As for Soddom and Gamorrah, that's a very GOOD example of god being an evil asshole. Basically he got into a bet with a prophet that there were NO good people in both of those cities, and he was BEGGED by the prophet not to DESTROY both cities if he could find good people living there.

Well, as it turned out, there was only ONE supposedly "good man" in Soddom, named Lot. Anyways, the two angels sent to see him were nearly ganged-up on by a group of men that wanted to RAPE the angels. When this SUPPOSEDLY good man named Lot said: "don't rape these men, here take my two virgin daughters instead". READ THE BIBLE. This kind of disgusting shit is to be found throughout.

You should know the end of that story; god blows the shit outta both cities and kills everyone. Nice guy.

One more instance I would like to point out is when Elijah is being teased by a couple of CHILDREN for being bald. Since they made fun of him, the BIBLE says that he cursed the children and GOD HIMSELF sent two GRIZZLY BEARS to KILL and EAT not only the children making fun of Elijah, but 40 OTHER KIDS AS WELL. HOLY SHIT!!!

Sorry... but that's not gonna cut it for a loving creator if he'd send bears to kill little kids.

For just one last piece, here is a video of mine:

oFdHy7Wk3mQ

[theOperaGhost]

The video doesn't show up for me, James.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

The video doesn't show up for me, James.

Try watching again, if not, here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFdHy7Wk3mQ

[theOperaGhost]

Ah, it works now...thanks.

[Prince_of_Peace]

Any big event are foretold, like an invitation goes out to people to prepare. You like up the greatest people that ever lived and you find out that none of them were foretold. If a person claims that he came from God, then he should not just pop out of nowhere. The bible is a collection of writing that many people wrote from the history. It is real because even the Muslims use the first books of it called the Koran. Everything about the Old testament spoke about the messiah or savior who is to come and save man. The New Testament the fruit of the Old Testament. Line up all the people in the world who claimed they are from God: Confucious, Muhammad, Joseph Smith, Buddha. None of these people were foretold on how they will be born, the people he will heal and the manner he will die. Jesus's life were foretold thousands of years before he was born. He was the promised one yet the Jews are still waiting for the Messiah. Jesus came to the world that his impact was so great that he split time. BC (Before Christ) and AD (After Death).

So who else claims that he is from God? Yeah...that's right.....and you know it.

[Oblivion]

Im sorry Prince Joel but that made no sense.
All I could understand from it was that you think God is real (or do you? I couldn't even understand your viewpoint), the Muslim, Jewish, and Christian religions are similar (which is well known), and that some quite important people were Christian, which is also obvious, since Christianity is the prominent religion in the world.
I am confused however, where you got your info that Buddha was Christian? I would suspect he was Buddhist, if anything.

Honestly you gave little to no evidence supporting whichever religion you are defending.

[Prince_of_Peace]

Sorry for the confusion....French man trying to write English here. My point is that people claim that they came from God of they have a message from God. Muhammad is the founder of the Muslim religion who said that an angel gave him the Koran. Joseph Smith is founder of the Chuch of the Latter Day Saints or Mormons. Confusious was the leader of another major religion. You line up all the leaders of the religion of the world and only Jesus Christ was foretold. The point that I am making is only the Christian religion is from God.

[BuryYourFlame]

QFT

Sorry, but your post (the one Jared responded to) is so fractally wrong that I don't know where to begin with it. As for Soddom and Gamorrah, that's a very GOOD example of god being an evil asshole. Basically he got into a bet with a prophet that there were NO good people in both of those cities, and he was BEGGED by the prophet not to DESTROY both cities if he could find good people living there.

Well, as it turned out, there was only ONE supposedly "good man" in Soddom, named Lot. Anyways, the two angels sent to see him were nearly ganged-up on by a group of men that wanted to RAPE the angels. When this SUPPOSEDLY good man named Lot said: "don't rape these men, here take my two virgin daughters instead". READ THE BIBLE. This kind of disgusting shit is to be found throughout.

You should know the end of that story; god blows the shit outta both cities and kills everyone. Nice guy.

One more instance I would like to point out is when Elijah is being teased by a couple of CHILDREN for being bald. Since they made fun of him, the BIBLE says that he cursed the children and GOD HIMSELF sent two GRIZZLY BEARS to KILL and EAT not only the children making fun of Elijah, but 40 OTHER KIDS AS WELL. HOLY SHIT!!!

Sorry... but that's not gonna cut it for a loving creator if he'd send bears to kill little kids.

Please do not try to understand the mind of the creator of Heaven and Earth, please do not try and shrink Him down to our size, He is GOD! not a human.

[MisterAndrews]

Well........ if he wants to save religious people why wouldnt he do it now? I cant believe I just said that...

Please use the edit button instead of double posting. Posts merged. thePianoMan

I dont know why he doesn't do it now..... only he does.




Did you watch the video or do I have to lay it out for you?

According to the Bible, God is omnipotent and omniscient (all powerful and all knowing). So, either God didn't give us free will like the Bible says or he isn't omnipotent and omniscient. If he were omniscient, we wouldn't be able to have free will because there would have to be a "grand scheme" to things. If he is omniscient, he knows what is going to happen to all of us and our lives are predetermined, thus removing free will from our lives.

The video also says that if God is omniscient, he can't be omnipotent. Him being omniscient would mean he knows everything that will happen in the future, meaning he can't change it making him omnipotence false.

This argument has been going on for years and there are a number of ideas. One is that God is omnicient in the sense that he knows our personalities and so knows what we are likely to do. The second is that he just isnt omnicient. The third is that he has created a plan, and though our 'freewill' makes us stray from the path we will always go back to it.
And he can be both omnipotent and omnicient. Because he created everything with a plan he knows what will happen already.... he is all powerful becuase he created us and all knowing because he has a plan for us.




QFT

Sorry, but your post (the one Jared responded to) is so fractally wrong that I don't know where to begin with it. As for Soddom and Gamorrah, that's a very GOOD example of god being an evil asshole. Basically he got into a bet with a prophet that there were NO good people in both of those cities, and he was BEGGED by the prophet not to DESTROY both cities if he could find good people living there.

Well, as it turned out, there was only ONE supposedly "good man" in Soddom, named Lot. Anyways, the two angels sent to see him were nearly ganged-up on by a group of men that wanted to RAPE the angels. When this SUPPOSEDLY good man named Lot said: "don't rape these men, here take my two virgin daughters instead". READ THE BIBLE. This kind of disgusting shit is to be found throughout.

You should know the end of that story; god blows the shit outta both cities and kills everyone. Nice guy.

One more instance I would like to point out is when Elijah is being teased by a couple of CHILDREN for being bald. Since they made fun of him, the BIBLE says that he cursed the children and GOD HIMSELF sent two GRIZZLY BEARS to KILL and EAT not only the children making fun of Elijah, but 40 OTHER KIDS AS WELL. HOLY SHIT!!!

Sorry... but that's not gonna cut it for a loving creator if he'd send bears to kill little kids.

For just one last piece, here is a video of mine:

oFdHy7Wk3mQ

Ok well firstly i agree that you shouldnt try to put him on our level. Secondly please can i have the bible references for the 2 stories you told? thanks id really appriciate it :)

[Perseus]

Well TCG, if you still do go to church, do you listen to the sermons in you Church. I dont know how yall do it up in Canada, but down here in the South, well at least for Baptist, the sermon is basically have a moral to it and what not. No churches are evil, as you condem them.. And for the people that are saying, "umm were did this come from?" He's got videos about how all they want is your money and stuff.. so yeah. And also how is telling someone, if you kill someone you will go to hell? Its the same as saying you will go to jail and rot or get the death sentence.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

And also how is telling someone, if you kill someone you will go to hell? Its the same as saying you will go to jail and rot or get the death sentence.

Its not the same at ALL. If you go to "rot in jail" you'll only be in jail until you die, same with the death penalty: they kill you and its done with. The BIGGEST difference is that hell is an ETERNAL and NEVER ENDING place of the most horrible torture that you couldn't possibly imagine. That's fucked up.


As for that joel guy; jesus didn't do anything to "split time". The christian church invented that dating system at least a century AFTER Jesus died because like always they wanted their foot in the door of every aspect of life. If you actually researched what the gregorian calender's history WAS then you'd understand how it came to be from Dionysius Exiguus, the monk who invented it HIMSELF.

Oh and for those that wanted bible references here they are:

God sending BEARS to KILL AND EAT CHILDREN:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/2kg/2.html#23

The verse is Second Kings 2:20-25

Lot gives up his daughters to be raped and he's SUPPOSEDLY a good man in god's eyes:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/2kg/2.html#23

Genesis 19:9

The list goes on and on...

God tells them to kill babies!!!:

The LORD commands: “kill without showing pity or compassion. Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children”
— Ezekiel 9:5-6

Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us — he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks!
— Psalm 137:8-9

The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword: their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.
— Hosea 13:16

[Perseus]

That was written when people DID that stuff, Christians mainly go by The New Testament where there is no talking of killing, but correct me if Im wrong.

[Oblivion]

Ok, so i have a legit question.
If 'He' is real, why does he not come down, prove it to the world, and have everyone (or most everyone) believe? Why have humans try to spread the message, when it is obviously futile?

[Perseus]

He lets people choose what they want but in Revelations it states that Jesus will come when there are no stars and the sun is like blank or something of that sort. So he technically will when its the apocolaypse, so if we live to then(hopefully we wont) we'll see.

[Oblivion]

If he came down and proved it, it wouldn't be him forcing us to believe, just giving some proof.

However if your thought is correct, he let's people choose (with no proof mind you) their religion, yet condemns them to hell for eternity if they choose wrong?

[Perseus]

Im not sure if this correct, but I saw it on this thread, people unaware to God will go to heaven.

[Oblivion]

So if I truly believe there is no proof God exists, I will still go to heaven even though I don't believe in him?

[Perseus]

No, you are aware that people believe in him, its like genaralizing towards tribes in Africa and Asia unaware to God.

[Oblivion]

So how does that apply to the original remark?

However if your thought is correct, he let's people choose (with no proof mind you) their religion, yet condemns them to hell for eternity if they choose wrong?

[JacobHerrington]

i wa raised christan but christianity just dosent sit right with me. im not sure what i belive

[Perseus]

So how does that apply to the original remark?

What do you mean? I thought it did.

[dyslexiaa]

Its not the same at ALL. If you go to "rot in jail" you'll only be in jail until you die, same with the death penalty: they kill you and its done with. The BIGGEST difference is that hell is an ETERNAL and NEVER ENDING place of the most horrible torture that you couldn't possibly imagine. That's fucked up.

Some Christians argue that the lake of fire was simply a metaphor to the absence of God in the afterlife. In this case, it's nothing different from what most athiests expect anyways. I, personally, don't know that I believe in a Hell.

It could be said that Hell (as well as many of the the biblical punishments) was an invention of the Church to take advantage of fears to spread Christianity. I think it's a sad era when faith is spread through fear and not through love. I don't think it was the way the message of God was meant to be interpreted.

With all that aside, in my opinion, Hell is a lot better than non-existence.

So if I truly believe there is no proof God exists, I will still go to heaven even though I don't believe in him?

Ok, so i have a legit question.
If 'He' is real, why does he not come down, prove it to the world, and have everyone (or most everyone) believe? Why have humans try to spread the message, when it is obviously futile?

I grouped these two together.

As long as you live your life as morally righteous as possible, I think there's at least a chance that you will have eternal life. Nobody is perfect and God is loving and merciful. It might not matter what you are during your human life because when you reach the afterlife, you'll be theistic (if that makes any sense).

He did send Jesus (and various other prophets) down to spread the message. God gave us life and the Earth to enjoy. The best way to worship is to live your life with love for others and live it to the fullest.

[Oblivion]

Why not come down himself?

'Sending people' does absolutely nothing.
I would never believe someone if they said they came from god with a message, and I doubt many people would. It would be just like what supposedly happened so long ago with Jesus.

[Perseus]

Some Christians argue that the lake of fire was simply a metaphor to the absence of God in the afterlife. In this case, it's nothing different from what most athiests expect anyways. I, personally, don't know that I believe in a Hell.

It could be said that Hell (as well as many of the the biblical punishments) was an invention of the Church to take advantage of fears to spread Christianity. I think it's a sad era when faith is spread through fear and not through love. I don't think it was the way the message of God was meant to be interpreted.

With all that aside, in my opinion, Hell is a lot better than non-existence.



I grouped these two together.

As long as you live your life as morally righteous as possible, I think there's at least a chance that you will have eternal life. Nobody is perfect and God is loving and merciful. It might not matter what you are during your human life because when you reach the afterlife, you'll be theistic (if that makes any sense).

He did send Jesus (and various other prophets) down to spread the message. God gave us life and the Earth to enjoy. The best way to worship is to live your life with love for others and live it to the fullest.

Actually if you dont believe in God, no matter how good you are, you will go to Hell.

[dyslexiaa]

“If faith never encounters doubt, if truth never struggles with error, if good never battles with evil, how can faith know its own power? In my own pilgrimage, if I have to choose between a faith that has stared doubt in the eye and made it blink, or a naïve faith that has never known the firing line of doubt, I will choose the former every time.”

There's a quote from Gary Parker, I just thought it would be an interesting quote to have floating around here.

Why not come down himself?

'Sending people' does absolutely nothing.
I would never believe someone if they said they came from god with a message, and I doubt many people would. It would be just like what supposedly happened so long ago with Jesus.

Well, Jesus was an embodiment of God.

"I know the resurrection is a fact, and Watergate proved it to me. How? Because 12 men testified they had seen Jesus raised from the dead, and then they proclaimed that truth for 40 years, never once denying it. Every one was beaten, tortured, stoned and put in prison. They would not have endured that if it weren’t true. Watergate embroiled 12 of the most powerful men in the world—and they couldn’t keep a lie for three weeks. You’re telling me 12 apostles could keep a lie for 40 years? Absolutely impossible."

This is a quote from one of Nixon's advisers that might offer a different perspective. While it's a little off-target from the argument (being that it was an act of God and not a message from God through Jesus), I think it's a fun quote nonetheless.

It's from this website, which considers the life of Jesus, the man:
http://y-jesus.com/body_count8.php

Actually if you dont believe in God, no matter how good you are, you will go to Hell.

I know what you're thinking of, but you should read some of the links below. It might help you understand where I'm coming from.

http://www.explorefaith.org/explore_faith/explore_gods_love/does_god_punish_us_for_our_sins.php
http://www.explorefaith.org/explore_faith/explore_gods_love/is_god_punishing_or_loving.php
http://www.explorefaith.org/explore_faith/explore_gods_love/if_jesus_god_are_the_essence_of_love_why_does_the_bible_threaten_us_with_hell_da mnation.php
http://www.tcpc.org/about/point2_study.cfm

[Oblivion]

Actually if you dont believe in God, no matter how good you are, you will go to Hell.

OK so what I said before is true?
'He' gives you a choice (but gives no proof directing towards the right choice), yet he condemns you to eternity in a fiery hell if you choose wrong?

[Perseus]

Well it is your choice... so really think about.

[Oblivion]

That didn't answer my question -.-
How can this 'God' be so wonderful if he tortures even the nicest people because they have a different faith than what he expects?

[Perseus]

Because, it is to your knowledge that people believe that he exists, and you refuse to believe. I know you will say, "well when people dont believe what I say, I dont think its right to condem them to eternal damnation."

[Oblivion]

And he expects everyone to believe everything people say?
I should believe in god just because everyone else does?
People believe he exists. So now that I don't- even though I expect to be kind and 'sin'less all my life -I would be burning in hell if i died?
Sounds like a picture perfect... entity.

[theOperaGhost]

I don't really consider that to be much of a choice. Either believe or burn in hell. That would be like me saying you idk...have to be a musician or I will kill you. I give you a choice, but it doesn't sound like it would be a very fair one would it.

[Perseus]

Yeah I know it doesn't sound fair, but He doesn't have to be fair, you chose not to believe in him, so he chooses you to burn for eternity.

[MisterAndrews]

Seeing as everyone is using the phrase 'burn in hell' alot, i thought i would put this in. we have been taught that hell means 'seperation from God'. The idea of fire and torture was put in to scare people into believing in God. In the bible there is 'weeping and grinding of teeth' because the people in Hell can not be with God. Basically God has given them chances all of the way through life, and in death but they refuse to renounce their ways so they are seperated from God. There is no fire or torture, but the seperation is enough to make it an unpleasent experience.

[Oblivion]

Ah, so if you don't believe in god, and go to hell, nothing will be different?
What do you do then? Sit in a room for ever?

[Perseus]

Ah, so if you don't believe in god, and go to hell, nothing will be different?
What do you do then? Sit in a room for ever?

Im pretty sure you're are worked like crazy, since youre not with God you cant praise him other things like you do in heaven, but I dont know what you do in heaven though.

[theOperaGhost]

The images of hell everyone has today basically came from the mind of Dante Alighieri about 700 years after Pope Gregory I set up the seven deadly sins.

[Oblivion]

Im pretty sure you're are worked like crazy, since youre not with God you cant praise him other things like you do in heaven, but I dont know what you do in heaven though.

Ok so I become a slave if I don't conform to his beliefs?

[Perseus]

Well I didn't really read what "Iamvampire" said before I posted that so I actually cant say shit about heaven or hell because i know nothing about except what Ive been told.

[Oblivion]

I hate to break it to you, but no one knows anything about 'it' other than what the bible says.

Also how can you claim to not know after arguing for it for a couple days?

[Perseus]

arguing what? I started he theaven and hell thing this morning I think.. other days it was other things...

[MisterAndrews]

well if hell is not being with god maybe you just dont wake up? it might not even be a psysical place

[Perseus]

No, when you die, you go directly to heaven where either an angel or God decides your fate( i forgot), so Hell has to be place, technically.

[MisterAndrews]

not really.... if god can create us can't he destroy us? Remove us from his presence?

[Perseus]

Are you saying that towards me or Shattered?

[The Resurrected One]

My thoughts on this whole issue have not changed.

[Perseus]

^ Which are?

[MisterAndrews]

The above was directed at you Mr. Trooper :P

[Perseus]

not really.... if god can create us can't he destroy us? Remove us from his presence?

Well, I dont see God coming and whooshing down and just killing atheists left and right, do you? Did you not see my other post where I said that when you die, you got to heaven first, then God determines your fate.

[MisterAndrews]

Well, I dont see God coming and whooshing down and just killing atheists left and right, do you? Did you not see my other post where I said that when you die, you got to heaven first, then God determines your fate.

Yea i did see that, which is what triggered my response. You said that because you go to heaven first, hell must be psyical. My point was that if hell means 'not with God' he could just destroy you and say that is hell. Thus hell does not have to be psyical.

And i suppose the reason he doesnt kill atheists at will is because he wants to give them the choice to freely come to him.

[Perseus]

Yea i did see that, which is what triggered my response. You said that because you go to heaven first, hell must be psyical. My point was that if hell means 'not with God' he could just destroy you and say that is hell. Thus hell does not have to be psyical.

And i suppose the reason he doesnt kill atheists at will is because he wants to give them the choice to freely come to him.

Well yeah, but hell is a physical palce since Satan needs a adomain.

[MisterAndrews]

But how do we know that satan is psyical? How do we know that God is psyical? Couldnt it be argued that they are just forces that don't need psyical domains?

[Perseus]

But how do we know that satan is psyical? How do we know that God is psyical? Couldnt it be argued that they are just forces that don't need psyical domains?

Wait, arent you Christian?

[MisterAndrews]

Yes... what does that have to do with it. Christianity isnt so strict that we all have to have the same theory of what god is... after all no one knows.

[Perseus]

I know Im just saying that I figured that you would believe that God is physical nad so is Satan.

[MisterAndrews]

I'm not saying this is what i whole heartedly believe. At the moment im split between heaven and hell, god and satan being physical. God being in 3, the father, the son and the spirit which is constantly in interaction with the world. Or them just being forces. I honestly dont know lol

[The Resurrected One]

^ Which are?

Negative things.

[Perseus]

negative things? so youre what atheist?

[The Resurrected One]

negative things? so youre what atheist?

Non-religious. I wouldn't call myself Atheist, so I don't know.

[Perseus]

oh okay.

[weredemon]

Our Lord Almighty is real it dosent matter if you belive in the bible or the big bang ethier way GOD did it even scientests agree that some greater power caused the big bang or this is the one I belive that GOD created Adam and Eve it happened.

I'm a Christan:)

[Oblivion]

Glad you have such a strong opinion.
Sadly there are some flaws:
Scientists for the most part (who are not one being that you can generalize) do not believe in a higher power.
If Adam and Eve were the only 2 starting humans, the human race would be incredibly inbred and most likely mutated
And finally, you have no evidence other than your opinion.

[CaptainObvious]

Our Lord Almighty is real it dosent matter if you belive in the bible or the big bang ethier way GOD did it even scientests agree that some greater power caused the big bang or this is the one I belive that GOD created Adam and Eve it happened.

I'm a Christan:)

Scientists do not agree with the statement that "some greater power" caused the big bang. We have absolutely no idea what caused the Big Bang (if the idea of causation is even important at the point, which is unclear), and any scientist that claims to know a greater power caused it at this point in time is a scientist worth ignoring. Sort of like you, someone who obviously hasn't taken very much time to rationally examine your beliefs or expose them to any serious argument.

[The Batman]

Well actually Nick I the human breed is Inbred it had to come from to common ancestors but the mutations would have been something developed over time by different cultures.

[The Resurrected One]

Shall I take part in this with my disagreement? Or should I leave that for those who have smarter things to say...

[Oblivion]

Well actually Nick I the human breed is Inbred it had to come from to common ancestors but the mutations would have been something developed over time by different cultures.

Yeah, but hopefully we are much less inbred than if there were 2 starting people.
No matter what, humans are at least slightly inbred, but if there were only two original humans... Their kids had kids with each other etc, which would cause extreme inbrededness :P

[INFERNO]

Our Lord Almighty is real it dosent matter if you belive in the bible or the big bang ethier way GOD did it even scientests agree that some greater power caused the big bang or this is the one I belive that GOD created Adam and Eve it happened.

I'm a Christan:)

I'm assuming these scientists you refer to are christian scientists which are by no means even remotely representative of the scientific community. If a scientists says that some divine creator made the universe and such, they're not objective, and there's a greater chance that whatever they're researching has some bias due to their belief. If scientists do believe this, then prove it. Get me the source or authors or name of a real, genuine, not full of shit paper that shows this. There are plenty out there that show the opposite of what you're saying. Second, and here's where the fun starts or your claim falls to pieces: where's the proof? Let's say Adam and Eve did exist and they did mate together and make the human race. This would result in massive inbreeding and mutations. This would be rather interesting to have happen and have no mutations that are easily noticed, severe or lethal and that keep occurring. I see by your spelling and grammar, you've taken next to no time to think out your "argument" (I cant actually bring myself to call that nonsense an argument but I don't know a better word to describe it), so next time, think as it'll help you a lot in life. Even god thinks, so be like him and think.

Congratulations for being a christian, I'm an atheist.

[Perseus]

But God wouldnt made it inbred technically since hes God of course . I know some people will say thats an invalid argument but heh who cares? It makes since to me.

[Oblivion]

You were the one that said God wouldn't make all people good hearted...
How is this any different?

[Perseus]

What do you mean? Those are 2 different things.

[Prince_of_Peace]

God is real. We are all created in his image. God is real.

[INFERNO]

But God wouldnt made it inbred technically since hes God of course . I know some people will say thats an invalid argument but heh who cares? It makes since to me.

The argument of "god wouldn't make it inbred because he's god" isn't getting anywhere. It seems to be circular reasoning. Using that sort of arguing that you used is not going to get you anywhere in a debate.

prince_joel1: You've made the claim that god is real and we're made in his image (2 seperate claims actually). That's lovely and all but where's the proof?

[iJack]

If god is real and created all of us in his image, then why does the bible say bad stuff about gays? Why did god make them then?

[Oblivion]

If god is real and created all of us in his image, then why does the bible say bad stuff about gays? Why did god make them then?

Because he wanted to give humans free will.
*laughs*

That's supposedly the argument.

(This particular argument is the debate on Good vs. Evil, but same principle as Gay vs Straight, since God says gays are evil supposedly)
The Freewill Argument


The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.


Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.


Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.

Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?


The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.

[theOperaGhost]

Merged with the Religion sticky.

[MisterAndrews]

Think about this everyone: How do we define 'good'? Good is the opposite to evil. With out evil we cannot define good, because we have no opposition to good actions. Therefore it would make sense for God to give us freewill so that we could see the difference between good and evil, and people would want to choose good.

There is another argument that when lucifer was cast out of heaven he went round using his power to give people evil thoughts, thus creating evil in the world.

However, i prefer the first argument.... i think its more logical. Think it over well if you want to counter-post. It makes sense, honest.

[Perseus]

The 2nd argument makes more since then the 1st one

[dyslexiaa]

Mhmm, I feel overlooked.

Our Lord Almighty is real it dosent matter if you belive in the bible or the big bang ethier way GOD did it even scientests agree that some greater power caused the big bang or this is the one I belive that GOD created Adam and Eve it happened.

You should probably do more research into how everything happened. Prancing around saying 'GOD DID IT' isn't going to hold a lot of merit in an actual argument.

Scientists for the most part (who are not one being that you can generalize) do not believe in a higher power.

Could you find a source for this? I've seen statistics all over the place, from high to low.

We have absolutely no idea what caused the Big Bang (if the idea of causation is even important at the point, which is unclear), and any scientist that claims to know a greater power caused it at this point in time is a scientist worth ignoring. Sort of like you, someone who obviously hasn't taken very much time to rationally examine your beliefs or expose them to any serious argument.

While I agree it would be insane to call it a law, 'first cause' is about as valid a theory as the Big Bang is. We don't have an extreme amount of information on either, so I don't see how it would completely demerit a scientist to think that a higher power was needed to start the universe up.

I'm assuming these scientists you refer to are christian scientists which are by no means even remotely representative of the scientific community. If a scientists says that some divine creator made the universe and such, they're not objective, and there's a greater chance that whatever they're researching has some bias due to their belief. If scientists do believe this, then prove it. Get me the source or authors or name of a real, genuine, not full of shit paper that shows this. There are plenty out there that show the opposite of what you're saying.

Believing in God isn't some veil that entirely distorts everything someone believes. Just because a scientist believes in God doesn't mean they'll answer everything with 'God Did It.' Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Descartes, Newton, Mendel, and Einstein all had some belief in a higher power (while Einstein is debatable.)

Religion and belief in a higher power is built on faith, there is no proof. You have faith that there is no God and I have faith that there is, but neither of us no, we both just assume we're correct based on our experiences.

Science can answer how, but it can't answer why.

Adam and Eve was a fable written thousands of years ago by people who had no scientific knowledge at all. IMO, Christians who take the Bible as a word-for-word historical document are ridiculous. If you don't understand the context that the Bible was written in, you're using a 2000+ year old philosophy in a modern world and it just can't hold it's weight.

I posted on free will and omnipotence and morality a few pages back.

[Mysticbeauty]

I'm A Catholic and a believer of The Holy Trinity (God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit). I have faith, which helps me believe God is real. I was born into being a Catholic which is funny because If I were not born into any religion I would most likely on more open minded on this topic. My life is not guided soley on religion but guided on my conscience (which I learnt that is given to us by God).


I do believe Catholic or not we all have a conscience. We all know the difference between wrong or right. Some consciences are guided by God and all Catholics believe that we have God inside us (but this is hard to explain). But what YOU feel is right is different of what others believe. Our Conscience are different because we all have different views. We make up our conscience on our beliefs or what people we admire tell us, so of course we beliefs are all going to be different because we are all told different things but it is up to us if we believe it.

This is purely my opinion.

Concluding
It all really depends. I have reliaze this is a topic to big for us to swallow.
This seems as fact because no one knows everything so there are things bigger than us. The unknown is honestly unknown...


*sorry if this offended anyone*

[Whisper]

6iUyAppOOU0
lawl

[Perseus]

Ive seen a commercial for that movie before.. It looks like a good movie
I dont think its really going to make Christians turn to atheism though, if he intends that.

[Cloud]

I am meant to be Catholic but i think half the stuff is a pile of crap if you read the stories most of them have serious flaws that contradict what has been set as a rule. I go to a Catholic school but I am not a strong believer in religion I prefer to have solid evidence like science offers so im agreeing with the evolution story because that has proof.

[MisterAndrews]

I am meant to be Catholic but i think half the stuff is a pile of crap if you read the stories most of them have serious flaws that contradict what has been set as a rule. I go to a Catholic school but I am not a strong believer in religion I prefer to have solid evidence like science offers so im agreeing with the evolution story because that has proof.

tis great that you have a strong opinion and are set in your faith. But did you know that genesis ch1 is actually just a story to illustrate how the earth developed. Since God is outside time, what is one day to him could be 5,000,000 years to us. And i think it has also been meantioned that adam and eve are a story aswell. This i also believe to be true. They were created to tell a peoples who could not understand science or god the story of the earth and though they are lovely to read, they are just stories. You hear christians say that they are real, these people just give us a bad name.

I think you are correct, evolution did happen... But is it just the unfolding of God's plan as illustrated in Genesis 1?

[INFERNO]

Believing in God isn't some veil that entirely distorts everything someone believes. Just because a scientist believes in God doesn't mean they'll answer everything with 'God Did It.' Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Descartes, Newton, Mendel, and Einstein all had some belief in a higher power (while Einstein is debatable.)

Religion and belief in a higher power is built on faith, there is no proof. You have faith that there is no God and I have faith that there is, but neither of us no, we both just assume we're correct based on our experiences.

Science can answer how, but it can't answer why.

Adam and Eve was a fable written thousands of years ago by people who had no scientific knowledge at all. IMO, Christians who take the Bible as a word-for-word historical document are ridiculous. If you don't understand the context that the Bible was written in, you're using a 2000+ year old philosophy in a modern world and it just can't hold it's weight.

I posted on free will and omnipotence and morality a few pages back.

If you believe god created the world and such, that does somewhat distort your beliefs on how the universe and humans came to be. In terms of scientists believing in god, I never said that it will make them answer with "god did it". I said there's a greater chance that they will.

That is true, the beliefs are based on faith and experiences. I have my reasonings for believing that there is no god and you have yours, however, as you said, neither of us know who is correct.

The statement of science can answer how and not why is mostly true although I'm not sure why you posted it.

Agreed, christians who take the bible word-for-word are ridiculous. However, I feel that aside from it being ridiculous to believe, it should be abolished all together. It has done nothing except hold back science. Granted, our scientific knowledge and technologies are fairly new but if we were able to continue with scientific experiments at the time when the church was essentially the law, who knows how far we could be today. Perhaps we'd be at the same page as we are today but there's a greater chance that we would have discovered something else, something more and be more advanced. The only thing I can see that something such as christianity brings is happiness or hope or some other crap like that. You can get happiness from plenty of other places or things that don't require believing in something so full of nonsense. Or, if you do wish to believe in christianity for whatever reason, you ensure that you still can reason, be logical, etc... without having to give some stupid statement of "god did it". If you are able to do that and ensure that it doesn't somehow interfere in other ways, then believe if you must.

[theOperaGhost]

One thing I cannot understand is why so many people believe the Bible, yet any mythological beliefs have basically all be abolished. What makes the Bible any different than something like The Iliad or The Odyssey?

[MisterAndrews]

That is true, the beliefs are based on faith and experiences. I have my reasonings for believing that there is no god and you have yours, however, as you said, neither of us know who is correct.

Agreed, christians who take the bible word-for-word are ridiculous. However, I feel that aside from it being ridiculous to believe, it should be abolished all together. It has done nothing except hold back science. Granted, our scientific knowledge and technologies are fairly new but if we were able to continue with scientific experiments at the time when the church was essentially the law, who knows how far we could be today. Perhaps we'd be at the same page as we are today but there's a greater chance that we would have discovered something else, something more and be more advanced. The only thing I can see that something such as christianity brings is happiness or hope or some other crap like that. You can get happiness from plenty of other places or things that don't require believing in something so full of nonsense. Or, if you do wish to believe in christianity for whatever reason, you ensure that you still can reason, be logical, etc... without having to give some stupid statement of "god did it". If you are able to do that and ensure that it doesn't somehow interfere in other ways, then believe if you must.

You can't really get rid of the bible because of the statement 'neither of us knows who is correct', which i do believe you agreed with. If we are correct then the bible is needed.

There is nothing wrong with the satatement 'god did it'. Science is great, it has solved countless mysteries. Its trying to solve the mystery of the universe, but can't decide on what caused the first particle. 'god did it'. Some force, which we would define as God because it started the universe.

[INFERNO]

You can't really get rid of the bible because of the statement 'neither of us knows who is correct', which i do believe you agreed with. If we are correct then the bible is needed.

There is nothing wrong with the satatement 'god did it'. Science is great, it has solved countless mysteries. Its trying to solve the mystery of the universe, but can't decide on what caused the first particle. 'god did it'. Some force, which we would define as God because it started the universe.

We would not necessarily need to define it as god. It could be something completely different. I see you're trying to support your little statement of "god did it". In this case, it can have a half-assed argument but elsewhere, such as how humans came about, the "god did it" argument is very poor.

[The Resurrected One]

One thing I cannot understand is why so many people believe the Bible, yet any mythological beliefs have basically all be abolished. What makes the Bible any different than something like The Iliad or The Odyssey?

Listen to Jared. He is very wise.

Needless to say, I agree.

[dyslexiaa]

I would really like to see these arguments broaden from just Christianity to all religions. I feel that athiests (teen athiests, at least) target Christianity more than any of the other religions, which is fine, but I'd like to see athiest arguments against other religions as well for the sake of variety.

However, I feel that aside from it being ridiculous to believe, it should be abolished all together. It has done nothing except hold back science. Granted, our scientific knowledge and technologies are fairly new but if we were able to continue with scientific experiments at the time when the church was essentially the law, who knows how far we could be today. Perhaps we'd be at the same page as we are today but there's a greater chance that we would have discovered something else, something more and be more advanced.

Freedom of religion and separation of state and church came way before atheism became as popular as it is, in a majority of the world (and you could argue that the places that didn't have it would be making any scientific leaps anyways.) I'm still not well-versed on it, so if you have any good reads on religion holding back science, I'm interested.

I don't think it's religion's fault that people never questioned things.

The statement of science can answer how and not why is mostly true although I'm not sure why you posted it.

The only thing I can see that something such as christianity brings is happiness or hope or some other crap like that. You can get happiness from plenty of other places or things that don't require believing in something so full of nonsense. Or, if you do wish to believe in christianity for whatever reason, you ensure that you still can reason, be logical, etc... without having to give some stupid statement of "god did it". If you are able to do that and ensure that it doesn't somehow interfere in other ways, then believe if you must.

Religion and spirituality are big parts of philosophy. Some religious organizations help a lot of people out. Religion can help people overcome the fear of death. It can help some people find direction in life and become more morally righteous.

Religion has done as much good as it has done bad, but it could be argued that if we were all athiests, we would find different reasons to kill each other.

[INFERNO]

dyslexiaa: You'll have to forgive me as I'm slightly unsure on the exact dates, however, it was in the 17th century. A man named William Harvey was studying the embryos of chickens and possibly deer. To little surprise, at that time, the church wasn't very fond of his studies but Charles I was, and was fairly intrigued, wanting Harvey to conduct more studies. However, Charles I was executed and England lost a leader who had an interest in experimental embryology. Why? Because the church at the time was strongly against it, and chased Harvey out of one area where he was doing research on chicken embryos. This was from the book entitled Mutants: On Genetic Variety and the Human Body by Armand Marie Leroi.

Another example, demonology (study of demons) which was practiced alongside exorcism to relieve a person from what was said to be a demonic spirit possessing them resulting in a certain mental illness. Instead of doing all this crap, the brain or if you want the psyche or mind could be studied.

[The Resurrected One]

What about Galileo Galilei?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei#Church_controversy

[dyslexiaa]

(I apologize for the Wikipedia-ing of all of my topics, but my internet is working in bursts today so I can't form a heavily backed argument, so I'll just keep things as vague as possible)

dyslexiaa: You'll have to forgive me as I'm slightly unsure on the exact dates, however, it was in the 17th century. A man named William Harvey was studying the embryos of chickens and possibly deer. To little surprise, at that time, the church wasn't very fond of his studies but Charles I was, and was fairly intrigued, wanting Harvey to conduct more studies. However, Charles I was executed and England lost a leader who had an interest in experimental embryology. Why? Because the church at the time was strongly against it, and chased Harvey out of one area where he was doing research on chicken embryos. This was from the book entitled Mutants: On Genetic Variety and the Human Body by Armand Marie Leroi.

I found this topic on the Catholic Church and medical history in the renaissance (which was around Harvey's time).

The Reformation of the Roman Catholic Church during this time was due to many things, including the perception of corruption within the Church. The ideas of Galen, a Greek physician of the 2nd century AD, had been heavily promoted and adopted by the Church, because he was a Monotheist and his ideas did not clash with any of the Church's, and had been the accepted wisdom of the medical world for over a thousand years; anyone who went against these ideas were either punished or suppressed, and that was unlikely considering that the Church controlled the teachings that went on inside the medical profession and universities. Individuals such as Vesalius (see below) found it very difficult to overcome such opposition and were forced to dissect human subjects in secret, because it was banned. However once they began investigating they found things which challenged Galen's theories on the human body,[10] because Galen had only been able to dissect animals. In 1531 Johannes Guinter published a Latin translation of 'On Anatomical Procedures', written by Galen, in which he stressed the need to dissect human bodies, bringing to light a previously unknown approval of human dissection. This discovery would prove vital in the lifting of the ban on human dissections. Thanks to the recent invention of the printing press (see above), news of the discoveries made by invididuals such as Vesalius was impossible for the Church to stop spreading, having been severely weakened by the Reformation.
Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Renaissance


and on Harvey and the Church, this is what I found:

Harvey's ideas were eventually accepted during his lifetime. His work was attacked, notably by Jean Riolan in Opuscula anatomica (1649) which forced Harvey to defend himself in Exercitatio anatomica de circulations sanguinis (also 1649) where he argued that Riolan's position was contrary to all observational evidence. Harvey was still regarded as an excellent doctor. He was personal physician to James I (1618-1625). After his and others' attempts to cure James of his fatal illness failed, he became a scapegoat for that failure amidst rumours of a Catholic plot to kill James, but was saved by the personal protection of Charles I (to whom he was also personal physician, from 1625 to 1647). He took advantage of these royal positions by dissecting deer from the royal parks and demonstrating the pumping of the heart on Viscount Montgomery's son, who had fallen from a horse when he was a boy, leaving a gap in his ribs, subsequently covered by a metal plate, which he was able to remove for Harvey. "I immediately saw a vast hole," Harvey wrote, and it was possible to feel and see the heart's beating through the scar tissue at the base of the hole.[3]

Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Harvey

(Bear in mind these were just two Wikipedia searches, I'm sure there's more you could find. I'm awfully lazy and I don't want to play devil's advocate more than I have to. :D)

So I see what you mean by the Church holding back science now, but there really wasn't a whole lot of science going on in the first place. I'm sure you've heard that the growth of science is exponential. These scientists really didn't have a lot to work with in the first place as far as technology and wisdom goes.

Undoubtedly, the Church and religious thought held back science in this period, but to say it absolutely maimed it would be an overstatement.

Another example, demonology (study of demons) which was practiced alongside exorcism to relieve a person from what was said to be a demonic spirit possessing them resulting in a certain mental illness. Instead of doing all this crap, the brain or if you want the psyche or mind could be studied.

Leaps and bounds in modern psychology occurred in the late 1800s. At that point, the Church was much weaker and freedom of religion was already law in America. My (ever-so-faithful) Wiki search on freedom of religion in Europe stopped around the 1600s. With the American mentality of freedom of religion having about a hundred years to sink in to the rest of the world, I don't think religion crippled psychology a lot.

[Halibut]

i was baptized catholic but i am agnostic :)

[INFERNO]

dyslexiaa: Perhaps saying that maiming science was an overstatement but even as you did agree, it did hold it back. Yes, I'm aware science is exponential. Before you mentioned that it was mostly targeting Christianity. Well, if I knew more about other religions and beliefs then I'd certainly go after them also, however, I know the most about Christianity compared to other religions (although from time-to-time, that statement doesn't mean a whole lot).

Haha, I'll accept the wikipedia searches for now.

[dyslexiaa]

dyslexiaa: Perhaps saying that maiming science was an overstatement but even as you did agree, it did hold it back. Yes, I'm aware science is exponential. Before you mentioned that it was mostly targeting Christianity. Well, if I knew more about other religions and beliefs then I'd certainly go after them also, however, I know the most about Christianity compared to other religions (although from time-to-time, that statement doesn't mean a whole lot).

Haha, I'll accept the wikipedia searches for now.

I brought up the multiple religion thing because there's a sect of athiests who are just angry teenagers who just realized they have the freedom to stick it to their parents. As with believers, non-believers can be at fault when they don't do their research. From a general standpoint, deism and Islam are a lot easier to defend than Christianity is.

I'll throw an argument for Islam out there, it's not mine, but I'd like to see how everyone reacts.

The creation of the universe is explained by astrophysicists in a widely accepted phenomenon, popularly known as the ‘Big Bang’. It is supported by observational and experimental data gathered by astronomers and astrophysicists for decades. According to the ‘Big Bang’, the whole universe was initially one big mass (Primary Nebula). Then there was a ‘Big Bang’ (Secondary Separation) which resulted in the formation of Galaxies. These then divided to form stars, planets, the sun, the moon, etc. The origin of the universe was unique and the probability of it occurring by ‘chance’ is zero. The Quran contains the following verse, regarding the origin of the universe:

"Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder?" [Al-Quran 21:30]

The striking congruence between the Quranic verse and the ‘Big Bang’ is inescapable! How could a book, which first appeared in the deserts of Arabia 1400 years ago, contain this profound scientific truth?

Consider the following Quranic verse:

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one Unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" [Al-Quran 21:30]

Only after advances have been made in science, do we now know that cytoplasm, the basic substance of the cell is made up of 80% water. Modern research has also revealed that most organisms consist of 50% to 90% water and that every living entity requires water for its existence. Was it possible 14 centuries ago for any human-being to guess that every living being was made of water? Moreover would such a guess be conceivable by a human being in the deserts of Arabia where there has always been scarcity of water? The following verse refers to the creation of animals from water:

"And Allah has created Every animal from water." [Al-Quran 24:45]

The following verse refers to the creation of human beings from water:

"It is He Who has Created man from water: Then has He established Relationships of lineage And marriage: for thy Lord Has power (over all things)." [Al-Quran 25:54]

A few years ago a group of Arabs collected all information concerning embryology from the Quran, and followed the instruction of the Quran:

"If ye realise this not, ask Of those who possess the Message." [Al-Quran 16:43 & 21:7]

All the information from the Quran so gathered, was translated into English and presented to Prof. (Dr.) Keith Moore, who was the Professor of Embryology and Chairman of the Department of Anatomy at the University of Toronto, in Canada. At present he is one of the highest authorities in the field of Embryology. He was asked to give his opinion regarding the information present in the Quran concerning the field of embryology. After carefully examining the translation of the Quranic verses presented to him, Dr. Moore said that most of the information concerning embryology mentioned in the Quran is in perfect conformity with modern discoveries in the field of embryology and does not conflict with them in any way. He added that there were however a few verses, on whose scientific accuracy he could not comment. He could not say whether the statements were true or false, since he himself was not aware of the information contained therein.

There was also no mention of this information in modern writings and studies on embryology. One such verse is:

"Proclaim! (or Read!) In the name Of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created – Created man, out of A (mere) clot Of congealed blood." [Al-Quran 96:1-2]

The word alaq besides meaning a congealed clot of blood also means something that clings, a leech-like substance. Dr. Keith Moore had no knowledge whether an embryo in the initial stages appears like a leech. To check this out he studied the initial stage of the embryo under a very powerful microscope in his laboratory and compared what he observed with a diagram of a leech and he was astonished at the striking resemblance between the two!

In the same manner, he acquired more information on embryology that was hitherto not known to him, from the Quran. Dr. Keith Moore answered about eighty questions dealing with embryological data mentioned in the Quran and Hadith. Noting that the information contained in the Quran and Hadith was in full agreement with the latest discoveries in the field of embryology, Prof. Moore said,

"If I was asked these questions thirty years ago, I would not have been able to answer half of them for lack of scientific information"

Dr. Keith Moore had earlier authored the book, ‘The Developing Human’. After acquiring new knowledge from the Quran, he wrote, in 1982, the 3rd edition of the same book, ‘The Developing Human’. The book was the recipient of an award for the best medical book written by a single author. This book has been translated into several major languages of the world and is used as a textbook of embryology in the first year of medical studies.

In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Dr. Moore said,

"It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Quran about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God or Allah, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God or Allah." [The reference for this statement is the video tape titled ‘This is the Truth’.]

Dr. Joe Leigh Simpson, Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, at the Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, U.S.A., proclaims:

"...these Hadiths, sayings of Muhammad peace be upon him could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available at the time of the writer (7th century). It follows that not only is there no conflict between genetics and religion (Islam) but in fact religion (Islam) may guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches… there exist statements in the Quran shown centuries later to be valid which support knowledge in the Quran having been derived from God."

This is a video of scientist confirming the Miracles of the Qur'an, that it was sent by God (swt) himself to the last Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8X9zb6Zl0o

The sex of a fetus is determined by the nature of the sperm and not the ovum. The sex of the child, whether female or male, depends on whether the 23rd pair of chromosomes is XX or XY respectively. Primarily sex determination occurs at fertilization and depends upon the type of sex chromosome in the sperm that fertilizes an ovum. If it is an ‘X’ bearing sperm that fertilizes the ovum, the fetus is a female and if it is a ‘Y’ bearing sperm then the fetus is a male.

"That He did create In pairs – male and female, From a seed when lodged (In its place)." [Al-Quran 53:45-46]

The Arabic word nutfah means a minute quantity of liquid and tumnâ means ejaculated or planted. Therefore nutfah specifically refers to sperm because it is ejaculated. The Quran says: "Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (In lowly form)? "Then did he become A clinging clot; Then did (Allah) make And fashion (him) In due proportion.

"And of him He made Two sexes, male And female." [Al-Quran 75:37-39]

Here again it is mentioned that a small quantity (drop) of sperm (indicated by the word nutfatan min maniyyin) which comes from the man is responsible for the sex of the fetus.

Mothers-in-law in the Indian subcontinent, by and large prefer having male grandchildren and often blame their daughters-in-law if the child is not of the desired sex. If only they knew that the determining factor is the nature of the male sperm and not the female ovum! If they were to blame anybody, they should blame their sons and not their daughters-in-law since both the Quran and Science hold that it is the male fluid that is responsible for the sex of the child!

Source:http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=263&topic=48029165

[Perseus]

Wow ^ imagine that, a religious guide actually talks about science, hmm.... maybe they got that from God like its says so... explain that ThatCanadianGuy. swhoom!

[ThatCanadianGuy]

Wow ^ imagine that, a religious guide actually talks about science, hmm.... maybe they got that from God like its says so... explain that ThatCanadianGuy. swhoom!

What is there to explain? It's apologetic bullshit? Neither the Qu'ran or the Bible share and "hidden" knowledge of the universe. They certainly contain thousands of vague passages, that in the light of new scientific breakthroughs the religious love to go back to them and re-interpret them to somehow fit in with our new understanding. Don't like that passage just "owned" me :D There wasn't anything of value in it at all.

[Perseus]

What is there to explain? It's apologetic bullshit? Neither the Qu'ran or the Bible share and "hidden" knowledge of the universe. They certainly contain thousands of vague passages, that in the light of new scientific breakthroughs the religious love to go back to them and re-interpret them to somehow fit in with our new understanding. Don't like that passage just "owned" me :D There wasn't anything of value in it at all.

Well, I got a question for you, did this forum convertyou to atheism because I was looking at who voted for what and you were under Christianity.

[theOperaGhost]

Well, I got a question for you, did this forum convertyou to atheism because I was looking at who voted for what and you were under Christianity.

You don't really get converted to atheism. I am also listed under Christianity on the poll. I kind of think I had similar experiences as he did. I started going to an evangelical group and it just all seemed fake from then on. These forums had nothing to do with it. If you really begin to think logically all organized religion doesn't make sense. I consider myself to be agnostic. I think there is a possibility of there being a higher power out there, but I have absolutely no evidence so I don't see any reason to worship it.

If there is a powerful being out there, what makes you think it cares about us? You probably don't believe life exists anywhere else in the universe, do you? This universe is so vast that why would a God care about one infinitesimal speck? It really makes no sense.

[Perseus]

Why wouldn't I believe in any other inteligent or uninteligent life forms in the universe? Do you not know how big the universe is with billions of galaxies n the universe, it would be arrogant of the human race to think there is no other life forms in the universe(sorry if that went of topic).

[theOperaGhost]

Why wouldn't I believe in any other inteligent or uninteligent life forms in the universe? Do you not know how big the universe is with billions of galaxies n the universe, it would be arrogant of the human race to think there is no other life forms in the universe(sorry if that went of topic).

It is arrogant, as well as ignorant, to think that we are the only living beings in the universe...exactly. It would also be ignorant to think that a God cares about us when the universe is so vast.

[Perseus]

It would also be ignorant to think that a God cares about us when the universe is so vast.

How would that be ignorant?

[theOperaGhost]

Have you seen any proof? I've seen absolutely no evidence. How can something be worshiped, or even expect to be worshiped if NOBODY has seen him and NOBODY can prove his existence?