Religion

[tombstonequeen]

satanism is based on truth and respect -_-

[Sugaree]

I disagree with that. Are you a satanist?

[tombstonequeen]

no my fiance is and i read a lil bit on it
what are u disagreeing with?

[Sugaree]

Well other than being a Christian, I think that satanism really is just a way of being stupid.

But hey it's your own belief right?

[tombstonequeen]

well with satanism
oh what was that quote
oh give love to those that deserve it? i think
its the principle that u need to worship urself instead of others

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

I dont like Satanism, I believe in helping others instead of being selfish. he world would be a dismal place without charity.

[Sugaree]

Well I don't think that satanism really gives love. I think in their own mind it gives them the impression that they are spreading love but really are spreading hate

There is a reason of why there are so many screamo bands lol :)

[tombstonequeen]

lol just a question have either of u guys read the satanic bible?
not just anton levay's?

[Sugaree]

Well no I only read the other Bible to be quite frank :P

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

I certainly think that Stanists could spread love, but I doubt it would be true satanism. But Legalbeagle, generalising screamo bands as Satanic isnt something you should do, there are lots of Christian screamo bands y'know

[tombstonequeen]

i suggest read it
just read it with an open mind

[Zephyr]

I haven't read up on Satanism too much, but I have talked religion with a Satanist before and they broke it down to me like this:

In Christianity you suffer now and are rewarded after death.
In Satanism you reward yourself now and suffer after death.

[Andrew56]

Well that's a pretty good statement. And I agree with Prince Jellyfish.

But even though you are a constructive Christian, which surprised me from the statement that you don't let anyone speak for because you speak for yourself, and think that's good.

But I have a quesiton: What do you mean by "those guys"?

I said conservative, no constructive if you were quoting me. I try to be constructive, but I fail every now and again, so I wouldn't call myself the most constructive.

Most conservative meaning; I believe the Bible is literal and misses nothing. It is not metaphorical, and it leaves no instruction out.

And "those guys" was referring back to what Prince Jellyfish had said.

[Sugaree]

I certainly think that Stanists could spread love, but I doubt it would be true satanism. But Legalbeagle, generalising screamo bands as Satanic isnt something you should do, there are lots of Christian screamo bands y'know

Well I guess I was wrong for that one. But what I dont like is when Christian preaching is put into various music forms. I don't mind like a band called MercyME which had a number 1 Christian hit. I mean Christian Rock or Christian Rap and now they are taking screamo.

It gets out of hand

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

But you have to find a way to recruit more followers beagle:D

[Underground_Network]

Thats why satanism is better, at least from my standpoint, because I don't believe in an afterlife. So yeah, indulge now, and who cares what happens once you die. You should just live life how you want to live life. I'm not saying you should fill your life up with negative things, I'm saying you shouldn't let religion dictate your life. Just do what you want to do. Even if you believe in an afterlife, if you choose to make your own decisions, possibly decisions that go against your culture or religion (but aren't necessarily decisions that are harmful to your well-being), then why should you be punished by going to hell or suffering in the afterlife (if there is one)?

[referring to Essasteph]

[Sugaree]

But you have to find a way to recruit more followers beagle:D

And yes music is a good way, but still you need to go out there and preach the true word!

[Antares]

I don't think that alot of people really know what the principles of Satanism are. At least I don't therefore I can't make a valid argument. Tombstone would you mind enlightening me a little on what you have read.

[Underground_Network]

Meh, I just like to say I'm a laveyanist because it sounds cool. 0.o :P

Actually I think its a pretty cool religion, and I just "pretend" to follow it since I'm really agnostic.

[tombstonequeen]

well to tell ya the truth i think that my bf could do a better job of that

[Antares]

Okay. Because to be honest I really dont have any idea what the beliefs are for Satinism.

[Serenity]

You could always look it up ;)

http://web.satanism101.com/

[Antares]

But its easier to be put into main points by people who...whatever...still...:P

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

back on topic peoples ;)

[Andrew56]

Thats why satanism is better, at least from my standpoint, because I don't believe in an afterlife. So yeah, indulge now, and who cares what happens once you die. You should just live life how you want to live life. I'm not saying you should fill your life up with negative things, I'm saying you shouldn't let religion dictate your life. Just do what you want to do. Even if you believe in an afterlife, if you choose to make your own decisions, possibly decisions that go against your culture or religion (but aren't necessarily decisions that are harmful to your well-being), then why should you be punished by going to hell or suffering in the afterlife (if there is one)?

[referring to Essasteph]

I'm stating this in a factual format, although it technically a theory, it's what I believe, and my answer to the question. ;)

God created people not to sin. When Adam and Eve rebelled against that, they could no longer freely enter into Heaven. Heaven is a perfect, flawless place, therefore no unclean thing can enter. As soon as you sin, you're all set to spend an eternity in Hell.

But God still loved His creation, so he sent His son, Jesus Christ, down to earth to die for our sins. How does that have any power to save us from sins? Christ was perfect and flawless. He could have called 72,000 (I believe, maybe 75,000? I forget) angels down and stopped His crucifixion at anytime. But he knew His sacrifice could save us from our sins. Because He was sinless and had no reason to die, He took our place when He did.

So my belief is Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

So, basically living for yourself, and rejecting Jesus' free gift is why you go to Hell.

Works don't get you to Heaven or Hell. You can be the best person in the world, but if you don't surrender yourself to Christ and accept what he did, it's and eternity in Hell.

The dirtiest, most sinful person alive could enter Heaven if he truly regretted all the sins he had committed, and realized that they were a slap in God's face, and asked for Christ's abounding forgiveness, and really really meant it.

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

Thats what I hate about religion, is the fact that you could be an amazing helpful person, and be denied Heaven simply because you dont believe in a magical overlord, while at the same time a murderer of millions could get into Heaven simply because he believes and repents to/in the overlord

[The Batman]

The only way the mass murder could go is if he truly believes it in his heart and when he repents he really is feeling remorse for what he has done

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

Yes, but he still gets to spend an eternity in the best place in existence, regardless of the evil they committed

[The Batman]

So your saying even though he is truly sorry and remorseful for what he's done and has also served time in jail for his time he still shouldn't go to heaven.

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

Considering he ended so many lives, he should be doomed to hell! Thats what i think (even though there is no hell)

[*Dissident*]

but what about the "infinite punishment for finite act" argument?

I believe that when we die, no matter who we are, we are integrated, both physically and spiritually, into the earth, joining and becoming one with all that has come before us and all that will come after.

[Andrew56]

And also, leading the life you should gets you rewards in Heaven. The sinful murderer is gonna have a lot less rewards then me. Of course he won't be jealous whatsoever, because paradise is paradise

[bigsack13]

my family is of muslim background, although my both parents are drop outs and we did not get a religious education.

[The Entertainer]

personally, i think it would be wrong to think of heaven as existing. It goes against all forms of knowledge we have as humans, be that scientific, factual, etc...we are evolved animals, so does that mean all animals therefore go to "heaven"?

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

No, because animals, unlike humans, dont have "souls" :rolleyes:

[The Entertainer]

somehow it doesnt stack up, does it?!

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

It stacks up just fine, religion can say whatever it wants because it runs on faith not reason

[The Entertainer]

oh, just as Richard Dawkins would say!

As someone who believes in God, I could return the statement and say that atheism relies on a certain leap of faith, to believe that there is no God. What is certain is that we dont know if there is or there isnt a God, no one does. So, there has to be a certain element of faith, whichever way you sway

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

Thank you for the huge complement my friend:)

But atheism does not require faith at all! Faith is the belief in something for which there is no proof, and there is plenty of proof against god

[japanman]

lol faith never had it never will i dont need it b/c ill die knowing "it" ill die by living a good life and ending it the way "it" made it to be and wats gonna happen to me when i die idk but as long as i live a good life im fine:)

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

Well, from a Christian point of view you arent fine Japanman... :(

[Nihilus]

What about Judism???:yeah:

[superstar2067]

I beleve that God is the almighty being but did not start the earth like The Garden of Eve so what im saying is I beleve in god but do not beleve in storys of the bible

[Hyper]

Thats all interesting.. But you are not really initiating any kind of debate, and this is a debate forum, your just expressing your views which you do, in this forum, through debates.

Just saying :!

[Dolphus Raymond]

You may want to read up a little on deism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism), then, since that's essentially the belief you profess. :)

[Andrew56]

Well, if you don't believe the Bible, where does your belief in God originate?

And it's the Garden of Eden. ;) (Adam and Eve)

[Whisper]

-Merged-

[richard001]

Why do people at school, think its funny or cleave to make fun of people because of there faith/religion.
For examle, i'm a christian, and most of my way throught school, i was called all sorts of names, because i went to church.
what was soo different about me, which mean that i was a target for basicly buliying?
AS i ot higher up in the school, it eventualy stopped, people accepted who i am, and understand that they wont chanhe that about me..!

[Techno Monster]

I`m Wiccan, so ya....

[Oblivion]

I am agnostic, but i also believe in many of the Buddhist ways.

Buddhism isn't always a religion. It is also a way of life for a lot of people, and if i really looked into it, it wouldn't be my religion, i would still be agnostic, it would just be my way of life

[Underground_Network]

I don't follow anything. I don't consider myself agnostic or atheist. I just am. I am what I am. I don't have a religion, but that doesn't mean I'm not "religious". People too often misinterpret the terms "religious" and "faith[ful]".

[richard001]

your right, 2 mant poeple do misiturpurate the word, and it is soo easy t do, i think it is a personal choice at the end f th day..!

[emecrazy]

i believe in god
just not the bible.. at all
its all about how u should hate ppl that are different.. thats what it seems like cause they wanna change all the other religions and .... gays= bad...
hah but i do believe we didnt just pop on the earth
someone had to of put us here

[richard001]

ummm, i can see where you are coming from, but ur basicly only discribing the old testiment, Jesus in the new testiment says that you should love every1, and not judge. treat others with resect and and how you want to be treated, he says that you shouldnt hate anyone..!

you say u dont beleve the bible at all then, tbh i think you have realy read and understood the new tesiment, with christians acualy follow not the old..!

[Techno Monster]

i believe in god
just not the bible.. at all
its all about how u should hate ppl that are different.. thats what it seems like cause they wanna change all the other religions and .... gays= bad...
hah but i do believe we didnt just pop on the earth
someone had to of put us here

The bible just disagrees with itself, Christianity tends to confuse me, that is why I went Wiccan.:yeah:

[kolte]

I'm an atheist but I have humanist principles.

[emecrazy]

well lets put it this way i believe in a god
just not the god that hates everyone for not having a certain religion or becase ur gay
well hate is a strong word hah but u kkow what i mean
i believ in a higher power

[Rutherford The Brave]

Seeing how I'm native American, Im polytheistic. I'm guided by the spirit, of the black striped wolf and the arrow and the chicken wolf. The wolf gives me my courage and the arrow and the chicken foot gives me my wit.

[MrPinnick17]

I like most Americans believe in god only when I'm in trouble.

[Antares]

I like most Americans believe in god only when I'm in trouble.

True and that shows the true ... (Cant get the word) of man. In times of need or when they are scared they always go "GOD FORGIVE ME" "I DONT WANT TO DIE!" etc. Why don't they just be good little followers from the get-go. Then there would be no reason why they would have to go and beg.

[The Batman]

I think the word your looking for is nature. And that truly is the majority of man.

[Sugaree]

Seeing how I'm native American, Im polytheistic. I'm guided by the spirit, of the black striped wolf and the arrow and the chicken wolf. The wolf gives me my courage and the arrow and the chicken foot gives me my wit.

I for one found the Native Americans interesting. I think about how they really loved the Earth for what it was. They were a rare people. Their customs were very amazing as well.

[kolte]

When I'm dying I will not ask god for forgiveness, thats the equivalent of being good for Santa Claus. Don't voice an opinion on behalf of us all.

[Texmex21]

im a mix of athiesm and agonosticism. i just really dont know

[empar]

FIRST OFF! god is probably real, however not in the way that christains beleive, so lets name him uncle buck. uncle buck is an all powerfull dude, but hes like a kid with a magnafying glass, burning ants. (were the ants)

i know that christianity is wrong in the sense that god is "good" because look at the world, global warming, 9/11, the AIDS crisis in africa, starving all over the world, war in Iraq. i can go on but ive made my point.

heres the problem with "jesus crist" although he may be real, why would you follow some dude that got OWNED AND NAILED TO A PEICE OF WOOD????? heres a question to all those that are christian, so if i nailed myself to a peice of wood and walked around the US preaching that..... uh..... a cheese doodle is god, and i am the son of a cheese doodle, wouldnt that be the same thing?!?!?!?! but no you would just call me a looney and call the cops on me

ONE FINAL THING: i dont know much about the bible but ive herd the quote from genisis often with : god made the earth and it was good : and that stuff. but my point is ITS YOUR BIBLE SHOULDNT IT SOUND LIKE IT WAS WRITTEN BY AN ADULT NOT A 3 YEAR OLD????


ps. sorry for all the spellings errors im just lazy and dont feel like going over them

[Antares]

I have a question. Do religious people accept atheists and agnosics?

[ShatteredWings]

I have a question. Do religious people accept atheists and agnosics?

well some must... my friend is an extreme christan, and she's pretty much accepted the fact that i don't belive in god [tho she gets on my tail about curising]

[Dolphus Raymond]

I have a question. Do religious people accept atheists and agnosics?

Accept in what way?

I've never have had a problem. Other than the "REPENT!" people downtown, most are respectful. Then again, I grew up in a largely secular state and town. Even most fundamentalists 'round here are resigned to the fact that plenty (most?) people aren't practicing Christians, and many aren't even Christians/religious at all.

Of course, a lot of them don't "accept" that in that they condone it. But the most abuse I've gotten is a kid saying "you're an atheist?" in mocking disbelief when I was like 13 (not sure why I claimed to be an atheist when I was 13, but I remember that pretty clearly). He was kind of generally annoying though.

[Zan0ra]

I'm a very spiritual person sometimes. i'm an atheist. I do believe in things like reincarnation though. I used to be a christian. But the religion scared me away. If you ever see an atheist sneeze and want to be polite say this.

Uh when you die nothing happens - that always makes me chuckle :D

[Andrew56]

I have a question. Do religious people accept atheists and agnosics?

By pretty much every definition of this I can think of, yes. In my case at least.

[PrLatino93]

I have a question. Do religious people accept atheists and agnosics?


im a christian and i have no problem wiht atheists. i never met an atheist(or at least i dont know if anyone i know is), but if i did, i wouldnt make a problem with it.

[Lucid]

I am a LaVeyan Satanist (look it up on wiki)

[japanman]

I am officialy christian.

[skhuaban]

as of now humanist, but in the future i will be a free-mason...

[Shpadoinkle]

Well, I see myself as a secular Jew, I don't believe in Judaism and my faith is based on facts that I decided myself... I see the bible important even though it never happened like it was written but it's still teaching us, humans important lessons, I believe in God as a psychological power that doesn't literally exist as our creator like the bible says but exist in our mind and it gives us power, it gives us hope and most important it gives us meaning for life, God gives us so much power that even though he doesn't really exist it seems like he completely does, I don't know if I'm the only one that believe in something like that because I never heard about any kind of belief with the same idea... Someone know maybe?

[ThatCanadianGuy]

Atheist. Surprise surprise eh?

Religion and God in general is utter superstition and nonsense to me. Sorry to sound biased but... I am :D

I will only accept things that I can see proven through facts, evidence, the scientific method etc. God does not reveal him/herself in any way. If there was any proof at all the convince me that I need religion then I would practice it. But I do not.

[southcarolina]

I'm Presbyterian (christian)

[CookieMonster]

I'm a non-denominational Christian and have been for two years now.

[Avalikia]

I belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (aka Mormon) That basically means I'm Christian, but I believe Catholicism got it all wrong almost from the get-go (i.e. I believe the Bible but don't believe that, for example, the Nicean Creed was divinely inspired), and that the protestant religions and other offshoots couldn't restore the gospel because they didn't have all the pieces or know all the right ones from the wrong ones. So God restored the full gospel through Joseph Smith Jr. in the early 1800s, which has been passed down from there to this day. Kind of a lame sum up, but eh.

P.S. I'm more than happy to reply to any PMs with curiousity questions about my religion. I'm not easily offended, either.

[Θάνατος]

I am LDS too. I am just not a good standing member.

[LoneWanderer]

I cannot wait for the day, whether it happens or not, or whether or not i will be alive, when religious people take a step back and realised that they've been living a lie.

[The Batman]

Yea my religion is not a lie.

[Maverick]

I cannot wait for the day, whether it happens or not, or whether or not i will be alive, when religious people take a step back and realised that they've been living a lie.
You can't wait? Why does it matter to you what other people believe so much?

[djvous]

The Bible is actually one of the most popular books in all time, It seems to me that a writer with the ability to influence people into beliefs could actualy get stupidly ritch off of it, no? My religion is to be withheld until tenternal darkness engulfs the human race, Which BTW was an accident in my religion, so good luck guessing what my religion is.

Oh And yes i was christened in the name of the farther, the son and the holy spirit, Got a huge conflict going on, but no water is gonna control me. as my preacher once said... "ssadrra vesydra lotre modre arey" 'Humans are scum, and would we'de be wise to forget'

[Mzor203]

I have a question for anybody who's religion has a holy book that they follow.

Why do you base your faith off of what a book tells you? I'm going to use the Bible as an example, but this pertains to pretty much any religion with a holy book.

The Bible was first created in some way or form a long time ago, in some language that may not be existent today (The oldest copy we have may be in a language we know of, but we have no proof that it is the first copy). For thousands of years, the Bible has been printed and reprinted by hand many, many, many times. It has also been translated through many languages, and as we know, sometimes what makes sense in one language may not make sense in another language.

Now, as the Bible has been reprinted many times, and it is such a big book, there are going to be thousands upon thousands of mistakes in it, and variations from the original translation. There was a period during the middle ages where there was no forms of punctuation, no space between words, and no coherent use of capitals, and when a copy of he Bible was made, the whole thing had to be written out by a monk. Now, many times, the monks wouldn't be able to understand what was written there, so he just wrote down what he thought should be there. Sometimes, something wouldn't make sense to him, so he would just decide to change it in a way that made him happy. And every time the Bible was copied, or translated, there were many errors and mistakes.

So why would you have faith in a book that is very, very different from the first version. The first version was where God's teachings were written down, (Unless the Bible was made up) so every time someone quotes a passage from the Bible, or preaches from the Bible to someone else, they are in no way preaching God's original teachings. Maybe in the original version of the Bible, God wholeheartedly approved of gays, and something got switched around in the translation.

3000 years (or however long) is a long, long, long times, and with the Bible going through that many translations, there is no way that the original teachings were severely corrupted from there original state.

Not trying to attack anybody by this, I just don't get why someone would have any faith in a book which had that many mistakes in it.

[The Batman]

Our whole faith is not based upon one book, just the lessons and morals it teaches. There are plenty of things in the bible that don't make sense and those are the parts we choose to ignore but the values are the only thing that matters. You know the bible says that we shouldn't eat unclean animals but we still do. The bible also says we shouldn't curse but we still do. Anybody that follows the bible word for word won't be happy.

[Mzor203]

I never said that the entire faith was based upon the Bible. I simply asked why you would put any "faith" in it. You can take many lessons out of it, true, but then why should it be anything more than good reading? Why should it symbolize anything for Christianity when it is flawed in many places?

Again, not attacking, it's a valid question, and one that has been on my mind for literally half my life.

[The Batman]

Because it is the first book. We pretty much base all of our morals out of the bible and so it holds a very significant value in the church. I know that there are some flaws in some places but as a whole the bible is the voice of the church. Without a bible there is no church just a town meeting.

[CaptainObvious]

Because it is the first book. We pretty much base all of our morals out of the bible and so it holds a very significant value in the church. I know that there are some flaws in some places but as a whole the bible is the voice of the church. Without a bible there is no church just a town meeting.

But that's not an answer. He asked why you put faith in the Bible. Why is the Bible the voice of the Church? Why does it hold any spiritual meaning?

More importantly, why should it, other than tradition?

[Mzor203]

Exactly, sure, it teaches morals and values, but those don't have to be learned from the Bible. I have better morals than a hell of a lot of people, and I've never listened to the Bible being read, or read more than 5 or 6 pages of it. It's not just a few flaws in the Bible, it's 3000 years worth of flaws, in many centuries without spell check nor punctuation of any kind.

If the Bible is what makes the church, as you said, there's something wrong here.

[The Batman]

I'm really not the most religious person infact according to my religion I'm destined to go to hell, so my answers aren't the best I'm just saying what I learned in between naps during church. But still though I don't see anything wrong with the bible. All your saying is that it's flawed well so what. Everything has a flaw and nothing is perfect so you living your life by a science book is wrong to me.

[Mzor203]

I don't live my life by a science book. I live my life by what I experience around me, what my senses take in and analyze. I only believe what I see, or what I know is proven, and is reliable.

I barely remember anything I learn in science anyways...

[Random_oso06]

I don't live my life by a science book. I live my life by what I experience around me, what my senses take in and analyze. I only believe what I see, or what I know is proven, and is reliable.

I barely remember anything I learn in science anyways...

true



but i still believe

[Hyper]

All of societies morals like don't steal, kill, wish harm to others, respect others come from religions

So if religion didn't exist we'd problably have developed these morals alot later

But the only thing I've got to say tot he guy who keeps on waiting for me and alot of people to stop living a lie is

That if you feel the need to disprove and smudge someones beliefs that only proves that you are insecure about your own

[CaptainObvious]

All of societies morals like don't steal, kill, wish harm to others, respect others come from religions

So if religion didn't exist we'd problably have developed these morals alot later

But the only thing I've got to say tot he guy who keeps on waiting for me and alot of people to stop living a lie is

That if you feel the need to disprove and smudge someones beliefs that only proves that you are insecure about your own

This sounds a lot like the last time I had this discussion. Please prove to me that all morals come from religion. Certainly it is popular to believe today that religion prompted law, but what is your evidence that norms against murder, stealing, etc., did not exist before religion?

The answer to that question is you don't have evidence, except the popularity of the belief in primacy of religion. For all we know, it could have been some atheist cave man who wrote down the Ten Commandments and left them on some mountain. Or, there could have been prehistoric societies using non-religious, oral laws. We just don't know.

[Hyper]

This sounds a lot like the last time I had this discussion. Please prove to me that all morals come from religion. Certainly it is popular to believe today that religion prompted law, but what is your evidence that norms against murder, stealing, etc., did not exist before religion?

The answer to that question is you don't have evidence, except the popularity of the belief in primacy of religion. For all we know, it could have been some atheist cave man who wrote down the Ten Commandments and left them on some mountain. Or, there could have been prehistoric societies using non-religious, oral laws. We just don't know.

And your doing the exact same thing xD

[CaptainObvious]

And your doing the exact same thing xD

No I'm not. I don't care whether morals "came" from religion or not, because I consider the origin of a law to be relatively unimportant (unless you're studying history of law or something). Paying too much attention to tradition is a big problem in my opinion; I analyze laws on their current and future effects, not whether they were popular laws in the past. By the same token, I couldn't care less who made the law first.

[Atonement]

The Bible was first created in some way or form a long time ago, in some language that may not be existent today (The oldest copy we have may be in a language we know of, but we have no proof that it is the first copy).



Old Testement was written in Hebrew by Moses and some of the prophets of the day.

New testament was written mostly in Greek. Originally published in Hebrew also mostly by the disciples (in israel)



For thousands of years, the Bible has been printed and reprinted by hand many, many, many times. It has also been translated through many languages, and as we know, sometimes what makes sense in one language may not make sense in another language.


That is true. There are words in Hebrew that have no specific simple translation to English. But the translation have done the best they could.


Now, as the Bible has been reprinted many times, and it is such a big book, there are going to be thousands upon thousands of mistakes in it, and variations from the original translation.



Well, they would change it and retranslate it, but recently, most Bible were translated from an actual Hebrew text of the bible and or the Greek text.


So why would you have faith in a book that is very, very different from the first version. The first version was where God's teachings were written down, (Unless the Bible was made up) so every time someone quotes a passage from the Bible, or preaches from the Bible to someone else, they are in no way preaching God's original teachings.

How are they not preaching God's original teaching. Say I made up a proverb. I told it to my friend who told it to his friend. Is is still my originial proverb? yes.

[Neverender]

How are they not preaching God's original teaching. Say I made up a proverb. I told it to my friend who told it to his friend. Is is still my originial proverb? yes.

well i think that god's basic message is still in the book, but the words and sentences are quite different, and tell a story or whatever, possibly the same as the first copy, or completely different. and the bible passages isn't just a word or two, they're several sentences, and if a monk didn't want to write all that, he might shave off a couple words and replece them with shorter words or just leave them off, and this happening for a couple thousand years to your proverb would change as well. like instead of confused, its confuzzled. or instead of See ya, it's Slue. but its still the original meaning.

[nachtspiegel]

I look back on this thread, and I feel a little glad that it's a sticky, but I wish I would've taken my time with the original post and poll. I gave it about five seconds thought and was gone.

Is there a possible way to make a new thread, with a new poll, and maybe merge or something? There are several religions left out in the poll.

:oops:

[Bobby]

A Senior Staff member would have to make a new poll. I think it's been a good thread though. No reason to make a new one.

[Whisper]

I look back on this thread, and I feel a little glad that it's a sticky, but I wish I would've taken my time with the original post and poll. I gave it about five seconds thought and was gone.

Is there a possible way to make a new thread, with a new poll, and maybe merge or something? There are several religions left out in the poll.

:oops:
All poll options would be reset to zero

[Maverick]

I look back on this thread, and I feel a little glad that it's a sticky, but I wish I would've taken my time with the original post and poll. I gave it about five seconds thought and was gone.

Is there a possible way to make a new thread, with a new poll, and maybe merge or something? There are several religions left out in the poll.

:oops:
I can delete the current poll and make a new one while keeping the thread in tact. PM me with what you'd like in the new poll and a new one could be made.

[The Batman]

edit: Nevermind disregard and ignore this Ant has answered my question.

[The Resurrected One]

Add "Jewish" in the poll, but keep "Other". I am Other. So many Christians, darn it, and I ain't one of 'em. I have my own beliefs. Like, I believe in God and Jesus, but I think that the Bible and Christianity and everything, well, I don't think too goodly about it.

[Neverender]

Add "Jewish" in the poll, but keep "Other". I am Other. So many Christians, darn it, and I ain't one of 'em. I have my own beliefs. Like, I believe in God and Jesus, but I think that the Bible and Christianity and everything, well, I don't think too goodly about it.

are you jehovah's witness?

and on this topic, what are jehovahs witnesses anyways? are they a branch of christianity? some form of judaism? or are they their own religion?

[The Batman]

They are a branch of Christianity.

[Whisper]

they're a cult
I know a girl that used to be in it baaaad

pertarded

[Hyper]

they're a cult
I know a girl that used to be in it baaaad

pertarded

Their not a cult but they have this belief that makes them act like one

Basically they believe that if they don't convert people they WILL go to hell

[Neverender]

Their not a cult but they have this belief that makes them act like one

Basically they believe that if they don't convert people they WILL go to hell

if they keep knocking on heavens door(remember the song), god'll get fed up with them and send them to hell anyways.


is the point of their religion to be miserable and boring all your life, you can't celebrate anything, no birthdays, holidays, no TV, nothing in the standard thinking of christianity (unless your in a conservative household, which speaking of that, have you seen the show '17 kids and counting' on TLC? that'd be a good show, exept they're conservative, so it's terrible).

but then again, i think the point of all religions is to keep you miserable, eh?

[Maverick]

but then again, i think the point of all religions is to keep you miserable, eh?
If the point of religion was to keep people miserable they wouldn't have any believers.

[ShatteredWings]

Their not a cult but they have this belief that makes them act like one

Basically they believe that if they don't convert people they WILL go to hell

anything that will come up to your door and try to "save" you, is a cult

[Atonement]

girl;395747']anything that will come up to your door and try to "save" you, is a cult

Please tell me you are kidding... Thats a terribly closed minded ideaology.

[theOperaGhost]

Please tell me you are kidding... Thats a terribly closed minded ideaology.

I have to agree with Addi.

[ShatteredWings]

Sorry, not kidding.

Seriouslly, if you need to market your 'church' like it's a comodity, there's something wrong

[ThatCanadianGuy]

girl;395755']Sorry, not kidding.

Seriouslly, if you need to market your 'church' like it's a comodity, there's something wrong

I second that. I don't see any door-to-door atheists... yet :P
Unfortunately religions are seemingly INCAPABLE of keeping to themselves. They have to spread their ideology or enforce it upon others.

[Atonement]

Ironic you say that james. -.- just messing with you.

I don't believe in forcing one's beliefs upon others unless asked upon. I don't believe in what Jahovah's witnesses often do. They do need another way to spread their beliefs if they do wish so. A less assertive way.

[The Batman]

I second that. I don't see any door-to-door atheists... yet :P
Unfortunately religions are seemingly INCAPABLE of keeping to themselves. They have to spread their ideology or enforce it upon others.
Wow if that's not being a hypocrite I don't know what is.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

Wow if that's not being a hypocrite I don't know what is.

What I meant by that is religions can't keep from imposing their morals on others. For example keeping gay marriage illegal in the friggin' 21st century. I'm not going around trying to make religion illegal. I'm trying to keep it from indoctrinating more people; when they're either too young to understand or in an emotionally vulnerable state. I think that's the biggest cause for continuing religion; its passed on to kids as soon as they're born so they never have a chance to think for themselves (and decide whether they believe for THEMSELVES or for their parents).

[The Batman]

The thing is that it's not all of religion thats keeping gay marriage illegal a majority of the people not supporting it are religious but some are just people who can't get it through their head that people should marry who they want. You can't blame religion for all the world's problem because no one is forcing any of them to do it they have a brain and they can use it to figure out whats right and wrong and whats really right in god's eyes and whats only wrong in their own. So don't blame religion blame the person.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

The thing is that it's not all of religion thats keeping gay marriage illegal a majority of the people not supporting it are religious but some are just people who can't get it through their head that people should marry who they want. You can't blame religion for all the world's problem because no one is forcing any of them to do it they have a brain and they can use it to figure out whats right and wrong and whats really right in god's eyes and whats only wrong in their own. So don't blame religion blame the person.

Well its not the person that gave them these backwards beliefs. Their RELIGION is what MAKES them have these kinds of opinions. And by the way; teaching a kid about heaven&hell, god ,satan, the ten commandments, the whole thing from BIRTH doesn't give them a CHANCE to figure out if their beliefs are right or wrong because its the only thing they know how to understand.

Plus (little side note) if the Christian god exists then I'm glad to not think what is right in MY eyes is the same for "his". He condones things like slavery and genocide... not my cup of tea.

[theOperaGhost]

My views on homosexuality are not religious at all, they are purely biological. I don't think there is anything wrong with homosexual love, just homosexual sex. Biologically, homosexual sex is wrong and unnatural. To be honest, I didn't even know the religious view on homosexuality until I joined VT. Religion to me is a belief in God.

I like science and I believe the theory of evolution to be possibly correct. But I also believe in God.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

.

I like science and I believe the theory of evolution to be possibly correct. But I also believe in God.

And what is "God" to you personally. What do you believe God "does".

[The Batman]

It's not the religion that gave them their opinions. They shaped it to mean whatever was more comfortable with them. Atheist do the same thing if they don't like religion they will find whatever they can in the bible that they don't like and use it to make it sound like an evil thing. People who are so obsessed with finding the evil in things IMO will never be happy because how the hell are you going to see any of the good?

[theOperaGhost]

God is an omnipotent being and the creator of the universe. I believe God created life and set off evolution. I believe God is there and can control what we do, although I don't think he chooses to control our lives. My feeling is that he lets us control our own life and is there to help if we ask for it. I also feel that he forgives all your sin, no matter what. I feel he's basically like a father. He gets disappointed when you sin, yet he'll forgive you. That is the way a lot of people's fathers are (not everyone's). That is my view for you. If you call me ignorant for my belief, then that is just extremely rude. Everyone is entitled to their own belief, whether you think it is wrong. I don't think you are wrong in what you believe, nor do I think you are ignorant or anything, so you shouldn't think that way about me either.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

I don't know how I have to "twist" the things in the Bible to sound evil. I don't. It is RIGHT THERE. You can read of all the genocide, rape, infanticide, and slavery clear as day. Half of the stuff was done either at God's COMMAND or by God HIMSELF. Even if the God was real why would he take thousands of years before showing up to ONE group (the Jews) and letting everyone else die before them (and presumably not get to heaven since they didn't know about God). Hmmm...

God is an omnipotent being and the creator of the universe. I believe God created life and set off evolution. I believe God is there and can control what we do, although I don't think he chooses to control our lives. My feeling is that he lets us control our own life and is there to help if we ask for it. I also feel that he forgives all your sin, no matter what. I feel he's basically like a father. He gets disappointed when you sin, yet he'll forgive you. That is the way a lot of people's fathers are (not everyone's)..

Freud actually did a big study on how psychologically people tend to view God as a deification of their real fathers (interesting and quite true). And now that I have your answer (what you believe). Tell me this (if you don't mind). Why do you believe it? Why do you believe god created the universe, started evolution, etc. Just wanted to know why that is your personal belief.

[theOperaGhost]

Freud actually did a big study on how psychologically people tend to view God as a deification of their real fathers (interesting and quite true). And now that I have your answer (what you believe). Tell me this (if you don't mind). Why do you believe it? Why do you believe god created the universe, started evolution, etc. Just wanted to know why that is your personal belief.

To be completely honest, I do not have a good answer to that. To me, everything is unknown. I don't know if my belief is correct or completely wrong, it is simply my belief. I have faith. I don't know if God exists, I don't know if the theory of evolution is right. Everything is unknown, both to you and to me. It really is. I don't care how much evidence you have or me or anyone, there is absolutely NO way of knowing what is the truth and what is not. How do we know if scientists are making up their evidence and it is the same way for religion; we have no way of knowing if anything in the Bible is correct. Everyone could just be making stuff up. Scientists could be making up evidence to support theories, religions could be making up evidence to support the existence of God. Everything we know in life could be a lie. NOBODY can truly know; everything is unknown.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

Now there's the problem. Half correct there; the more we learn with science helps us understand less and less about MORE and MORE things (if you get my meaning). But you can't say that EVERYTHING is unkown. We base "knowing" off of demonstrable evidence and manifestation of hypotheses. Example: I KNOW that when I drop a ball it will fall down to the ground. How? Gravity. I know it. (see? :P)

Now when we have MORE evidence (which you can even observe for yourself if you're interested) for evolution than we do for gravity. You can't accuse scientists of "making stuff up" just like religious leaders and different holy books. It can NEVER happen. The whole point of having scientific knowledge recognized is PEER REVIEW. Before anybody can accept your "new knowledge" on something, TONS of OTHER scientists have to take your experiements and try them SEPARATELY and TEST them out to see if they are true. No scientific knowledge is considered to be "true" in the sense you think of unless it has stood up to the scrutiny of SCORES of scientists from around the world. To claim that THEY are the ones making stuff up is absurd.

Everything is NOT unkown. It is only unkown to people that.... don't know (duh) !!!
To KNOW, you have to LEARN. So the only way to do that is research and find the "knowledge" you seek for yourself.

We may never know the biggest mysteries, but we HAVE solved a great many important ones by our understanding of the universe. IF it does in fact turn out that "everything" is unkown, then the universe wouldn't really exist. The only way we can tell that ANYTHING exists is by observation. And by our observations we see consistency. That is, the things we learn continually with scientific discovery just goes to FURTHER build up this model of the universe that we CAN understand.

EVERYBODY can truly know; everything that is POSSIBLE to know is an attainable goal for those willing to try.

[theOperaGhost]

I know scientific theories is put up to the scrutiny of scientists from around the world, but religious ideologies are put up to the scrutiny of theologists from around the world as well. I honestly feel that we know less then we think...including you...everyone. Scientists always think they have the answer, religious people always think they have the answers. I feel nobody truly has the answers. I accept scientific theories, I accept religious ideologies.

To be honest, I like the Donald Rumsfeld quote. There are known knowns; things that we know that we know. Then there are known unknowns; things that we know that we don't know. And last there are unknown unknowns; things that we know that we don't know. (I didn't bother to look up the whole quote, but that is the gist of it). It really does make sense, unlike most of my posts.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

I like the quote; its very true; but the religious side doesn't hold to it. Scientists are very happy to say that we certainly DO NOT know everything, or even a lot about the stuff we DO know. The point is that religious authorities CLAIM to KNOW things where they really can't say. Such as... "there is a hell" and "it is a real place for sinners" as well as "God exists". These are certainly things that they can't prove, yet they claim to know these things as if they were facts. We're actually glad to be able to ADMIT that we don't know; that means we have more stuff to work on so that we will!

This is what most Militant AGNOSTICS will say to any religious leader: I DON'T KNOW, AND YOU DAMN WELL DON'T KNOW EITHER!

[theOperaGhost]

I have to say, I come to an agreement with that post, James. However, you cannot say that God DOESN'T exist, I can't say that God DOES exist. It would pretty much be hypocritical if you DID say God doesn't exist, because you don't know. But I do have to say, your last post was a good one.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

Yeah, with the whole "you can't say he DOESN'T either" argument there are some problems. If we put it into the perspective of something YOU don't believe (example).

So here we go; there are invisible pixies that tell people to do good or bad things and that is where we act upon things (i.e. our conscience). Well... you can't DISPROVE the magic pixies can you? Its the same deal with god; you can't completelly disprove the notion, but there is no evidence to support the positive (which is god exists). If something is going to be so VAUGE that you can't prove anything about it either way, I don't see a point in believing in it at all.

Its a big problem with god; I've NEVER seen any two people give me the SAME definition for what god actually IS. That's a pretty hard thing to reconcile with. If no one can even come to an agreement on what god actually IS, how can they say that any of them are not making it up. Before you can say god exists you sorta have to explain what you acutally MEAN by "god". It would be a LOT more compelling if ALL religious people had the same way of defining god. But not even TWO people have the same definition, which ties back to Freud, showing that this god character is projected only in the mind of these people that want to believe (they believe in whatever god suits their personality the best).

[theOperaGhost]

I don't have any proof God exists, you don't have any proof God doesn't exist. In science, things are proven false, but God hasn't been proven false.

[Oblivion]

Honestly this is how I see it
Everyone believes something happened
Nobody can EVER prove that one happened
But, I think most religions are shots into the dark, with infinite possibilities
Science and evolution have evidence to back up everything said,
While most religions dont have concrete things to prove anything

[The Batman]

Evolution is a theory there is no evidence for it just coincidences. Even though I do believe it.

[Oblivion]

How can there be a theory with no evidence?
Plus, there is evidence all around us,
Things have evolved even since humans started noting it

[theOperaGhost]

Nick is right...it would not be a theory if there were no evidence, it would still be a hypothesis, a thought.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

Evolution is a theory there is no evidence for it just coincidences. Even though I do believe it.

If that's what you think evolution is... you obviously don't understand how much it's supported by FACT. The others are right; even though some might believe in god they do aknowledge the FACT of evolution. If you think its just "coincidences" then you need to do more research!

Here's a start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent

[The Batman]

If that's what you think evolution is... you obviously don't understand how much it's supported by FACT. The others are right; even though some might believe in god they do aknowledge the FACT of evolution. If you think its just "coincidences" then you need to do more research!

Here's a start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent
I refuse to believe that evolution is a fact. Until you sit down and record a monkey becoming a human I won't believe that it is a fact.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

I refuse to believe that evolution is a fact. Until you sit down and record a monkey becoming a human I won't believe that it is a fact.

You have just proven that you don't even have a clue about evolution. I'm not gonna waste time on this tonight with this kind of response. I'll DEFINITELY post a bigger response tomorrow.

[ThatDude93]

I am a christian, but I respect everyone else beliefs and I enjoy learning about others religions. I have a good friend on another forum that is Muslim.

As far as evolution, I don't know, God could have caused it, or it might not exist at all!!

[Neverender]

I am a christian, but I respect everyone else beliefs and I enjoy learning about others religions. I have a good friend on another forum that is Muslim.

As far as evolution, I don't know, God could have caused it, or it might not exist at all!!

you'd be pretty stunned to think that evolution hadn't happened at all, even if god caused it. if it didn't, we'd still be hairy and we wouldn't have pets, in fact, we'd all be amoeba.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

I don't have any proof God exists, you don't have any proof God doesn't exist. In science, things are proven false, but God hasn't been proven false.

That doesn't matter. You never automatically just assume that your stance is true because it hasn't been disproven WHEN your claim is inherently untestable, unverifiable, and unprovable, with no evidence to support it anywhere.

Magic universe-creating fairies created everything. I have no proof that they did, but you can't prove to me they DIDN'T do it because they're magic. See the logical fallacy there? For you to take something as true there needs to be a good REASON for believing in it.


And as far as last night goes (with the monkey kid), evolution is NOTHING like what you described so you'd never get your proof. We didn't come from monkeys, and if you knew ANYTHING about evolution you'd understand that. So untill you actually do your research and find out what it actually IS that you are misrepresenting don't give a laughable argument.

[ThatDude93]

you'd be pretty stunned to think that evolution hadn't happened at all, even if god caused it. if it didn't, we'd still be hairy and we wouldn't have pets, in fact, we'd all be amoeba.


or god could have created us all as we are (as a species)::yes:

[ThatCanadianGuy]

or god could have created us all as we are (as a species)::yes:

Or... no. There is no evidence that suggests god had anything to do with the evolutionary process. That IS the route that some theists like to take (theistic evolution) but the science stands without any need for god as back-up to support our species getting here. We as a species evolved natrually through a natural process (duh).

[theOperaGhost]

That doesn't matter. You never automatically just assume that your stance is true because it hasn't been disproven WHEN your claim is inherently untestable, unverifiable, and unprovable, with no evidence to support it anywhere.

Magic universe-creating fairies created everything. I have no proof that they did, but you can't prove to me they DIDN'T do it because they're magic. See the logical fallacy there? For you to take something as true there needs to be a good REASON for believing in it.


And as far as last night goes (with the monkey kid), evolution is NOTHING like what you described so you'd never get your proof. We didn't come from monkeys, and if you knew ANYTHING about evolution you'd understand that. So untill you actually do your research and find out what it actually IS that you are misrepresenting don't give a laughable argument.

That does matter to people with faith, which you used to have. I don't have a particularly strong faith, but I still have faith. The people I know who do have strong faith normally have their reasons. "God spoke to them" and "God made this happen in my life." I can't say if this happened or not.

Now I have a question, do you accept the string theory? I mean, come on, other dimensions. How can that be possible? You can't see them, so how can there be observable evidence? Yet it is still classified as a scientific theory. Doesn't make sense there there isn't empirical evidence to support it.

[ThatDude93]

Or... no. There is no evidence that suggests god had anything to do with the evolutionary process. That IS the route that some theists like to take (theistic evolution) but the science stands without any need for god as back-up to support our species getting here. We as a species evolved naturally through a natural process (duh).

does there have to be scientific evidence for everything.... no, is there scientific evidence to most things in the bible....no But is Christianity the #1 religion in the world...yes

[theOperaGhost]

does there have to be scientific evidence for everything.... no, is there scientific evidence to most things in the bible....no But is Christianity the #1 religion in the world...yes

There kind of does have to be scientific evidence for everything actually. And does Christianity being the #1 religion in the world make Christians better then everyone else? no. Everyone is equal.

Wow I am hypocritical. I'm a Christian that thinks there should be scientific evidence for everything...weird.

[ThatDude93]

lol I don't believe that being a Christian makes me anymore important, I never said that.

[Oblivion]

does there have to be scientific evidence for everything.... no, is there scientific evidence to most things in the bible....no But is Christianity the #1 religion in the world...yes

Actually there kind of does have to be scientific evidence for everything, or else it cant be proven to exist
And just because Christianity is the largest religion in the world doesnt make it right

[ThatDude93]

I never said that either, I was just saying that even though there is no scientific evidence for everything in Christianity it still has the most believers.

And there does sort of have to be scientific evidence for everything, but not as far as my religious beliefs, that goes above science.

And I would just like to point out that I love science but I still believe religion above it in most all cases.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

Actually there kind of does have to be scientific evidence for everything, or else it cant be proven to exist
And just because Christianity is the largest religion in the world doesnt make it right

Kudos; exactly right. Having a big group of people backing you up does NOT make you right. The majority of people 500 years ago thought the world was flat, and they read that in the Bible (the bible says the world is flat look it up). That just proves that it is possible for a very big portion of the population to be deluded.

That's the issue with the population argument: it is NOT possible that ALL religious people are correct because they ALL have different individual beliefs on what god actually "is" (remember, no two christians have ever believed in the "same" god since their interpretation of god is different). It IS possible however that ALL of them are just wrong :P

[theOperaGhost]

Kudos; exactly right. Having a big group of people backing you up does NOT make you right. The majority of people 500 years ago thought the world was flat, and they read that in the Bible (the bible says the world is flat look it up). That just proves that it is possible for a very big portion of the population to be deluded.

That's the issue with the population argument: it is NOT possible that ALL religious people are correct because they ALL have different individual beliefs on what god actually "is" (remember, no two christians have ever believed in the "same" god since their interpretation of god is different). It IS possible however that ALL of them are just wrong :P

Oh goodie!! I'm wrong! Now my whole life has been a lie and I now have no reason to go on in life. GREAT!

Religion gives me something to live on for. If I didn't have religion, I would be dead by now.

Oh, and I said the same thing Nick did, before Nick said it, but you probably ignored it, since I'm Christian and he's atheist.

[ThatDude93]

Gosh, stop bashing me about something I didn't even say

And I'm with thePianoMan, without religion I'd probably be dead now too

[The Batman]

Might as well say that magical fairy dust caused evolution. Can you prove it didn't? I think not.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

Oh goodie!! I'm wrong! Now my whole life has been a lie and I now have no reason to go on in life. GREAT!

Religion gives me something to live on for. If I didn't have religion, I would be dead by now.
.

If you really were living a lie; would you be more concerned with just being blissful and unaware or would you rather know the truth? I mean its a personal choice but I've always been one for wanting to know the truth. Remember, I was a christian for what... 12 years? When I realized that it was a "lie" I didn't feel like life had no meaning afterwards! Just because this dogma you've been taught is removed doesn't mean you don't have a reason to live; it just lets you know finally that the RELIGION no longer has control over how you live or your actions.

Religion can't be the ONLY thing worth living for... all the atheists would be dead then :P

Think about all the wonderful things worth living for; love, friendship, family, and simply having the fleeting CHANCE to exist. The thing that makes life so important is the fact that its the ONLY life you'll get, and tis a short one my friends. You should live your lives free of the shackles of religion (my opinion here remember) and focus on making your life good NOW instead of trying to "score points for the afterlife" that likely doesn't even exist.

But if that is honestly the ONLY thing worthwhile to you; then by all means believe in it with all you got.

[theOperaGhost]

Honestly. EVERBODY. Who cares!!! AHHH!!!! Believe what you want to believe, just don't try to press your beliefs on others (religious people AND ATHIESTS!). Everyone can share what they believe, just don't ram it down eachother's throats!

BTW Hooray for Jesus!
(see! that wasn't so bad!)

You joined when you were 12? Because you were a Christian when you joined VT.

Anyway, you don't know the truth either and don't say you do. NOBODY KNOWS THE TRUTH.

[Neverender]

does there have to be scientific evidence for everything.... no, is there scientific evidence to most things in the bible....no But is Christianity the #1 religion in the world...yes

yes, but religion is fake. it was made up by humans thousands of years ago to make us feel there is some divine purpose in life. a human is a human, no matter what was in their mind while still alive.


religion is separate from life, the earth, universe, etc. it affects us in no way; our bodies did not evolve with religion in mind.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

You joined when you were 12?

Anyway, you don't know the truth either and don't say you do. NOBODY KNOWS THE TRUTH.

No, I was just a Christian until I was 13. I joined the site at like 14 or 15.

Then if nobody knows the truth nothing in religion is true.... there we go?

Pretty much said it yourself lol. That's what religion is to me now; of all our attempts to LEARN and UNDERSTAND what is really true, religion has done the poorest job at proving its case.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

religion is separate from life, the earth, universe, etc. it affects us in no way; our bodies did not evolve with religion in mind.

Quote for truth! (there's some truth for ya :P)

It's a common quote that "everyone is born Atheist"

Religion is something that is TAUGHT. You aren't born believing in jesus or muhammad. You are told constantly what to believe when your brain is still forming... which molds your beliefs into that of your parents.

[theOperaGhost]

No, I was just a Christian until I was 13. I joined the site at like 14 or 15.

Then if nobody knows the truth nothing in religion is true.... there we go?

Pretty much said it yourself lol. That's what religion is to me now; of all our attempts to LEARN and UNDERSTAND what is really true, religion has done the poorest job at proving its case.

I never said religion was true. I never said science was true. Nobody knows the truth because the truth is more then anyone can comprehend. Why even try? Why does anyone even care what happens when you die, you'll be dead? Who cares...

You've changed a lot since that post back when you said believe what you want to believe, just don't press your beliefs on others(religious people and ATHEISTS).

[The Batman]

No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to believe in God. My religion isn't fucking brainwash it's something that I chose to believe and if you don't like I don't care. The only people on this forum who ever bash another religion are Atheist and in my mind it's stupid. How the hell can you set your mind to completely throwing down something that you say you don't care about. Just go drink a can of "I don't give a fuck" and chillax.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

I'm not pushing atheism because there isn't anything TO "push".

Atheism isn't a belief; its a lack of belief in the supernatural.... so I'm trying to keep people from relying on superstition and outdated beliefs that they DO enforce on others. You don't see any atheists trying to make religion ILLEGAL yet you see gay marriage is illegal, the TEN COMMANDMENTS are posted on goverment property; et cetera. All of which are violations of the constitution.

[Neverender]

No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to believe in God.

of course not. but then if you go to Iran..

then they will hold a gun to your head and force you to believe in Allah. and they say war isn't justified..

[ThatDude93]

But your pushing your belief in no God, which is technically Atheism.

[The Batman]

Do you see any of us coming on here telling you guys to convert to christianity before you burn in hell for the rest of your life? No but we constantly see you guys calling our religion a superstition, outdated, or fake. I respect that your Atheist and I'm not going to come and try and tell you that your living a lie so why don't you respect my religion and stop mocking it.

[Neverender]

Do you see any of us coming on here telling you guys to convert to christianity before you burn in hell for the rest of your life? No but we constantly see you guys calling our religion a superstition, outdated, or fake. I respect that your Atheist and I'm not going to come and try and tell you that your living a lie so why don't you respect my religion and stop mocking it.

damn right. i could care less about what religion you are (unless your branch davidian, they're downright nuts, or at least their leader was) but don't be talking down us about how what we believe in. i'd rather like to think there is a place after death then just know that i'd just be in a dark coffin for the next 10 trillion years.

this sounds like a soap opera there now. and coming up soon on Days of our lives..

[ThatCanadianGuy]

Its not just the issue of the "truth" of religion; nor is it the aspect of conversion. It is the ENFORCEMENT of religiously-based views that directly contradict the constitution that is the problem. They are blurring the lines of church-state separation and having ALL of their agenda played out to affect EVERYONE.

Remember; we're the minority and it is usually US who are descriminated against.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiyJzWy3CDQ

^^^ That is NOT as uncommon as you'd think. This sort of descrimination happens all the time.

[Hyper]

So essentially you are a hypocrit or are you just arbitary?

As you basically brand all religion & religious people and take on a zealous cause to free humanity from these horrible shackles and so on.

While ignoring the fact that you guys do just the same, and where I live you do it far more vocally and in the internet your the guys who try to break into the religious online communities and start a fight for the good of ridding humanity of this foul ''lie''

Instead of focusing all of your energy into dealing with your own personal dilemmas, grudges & finding justificiations for them, accept people for who they are even if they are discriminating bastards

The only thing your posts and your magical fairy examples will achieve most likely is fueling some extremeists anger against all atheists

You don't achieve anything fighting windmills you never achieve anything trying to force something upon somebody even if your stronger simply because both cause hate towards the opressor, and in here you are the opressor

So in general the people who aren't extremeists should accept everyone else for who they are unless they become the extremeists themselves

[Whisper]

ZL0C2QvqIlo&feature=related
The middle east and many other countries
will never know peace

[The Resurrected One]

I won't say that I am anti-religious because I'm...not exactly.

To me, God and religion are different. I may believe in God, but I am not in favour of religion. I mentioned this before.

So yes. If I had to choose between being anti-religious and not, I might say the first one.

[notsure101]

Im catholic man

[MissRuby]

I'm a athiest/agnostic, I don't know the difference lol.
Whichever one I "formally" come under, I don't really care because I know what I believe in when it comes to religion...nothing.
My family are all athiests/agnostics as well and I've not adopted any religious beliefs because to me, they just seem so illogical that even if I wanted to believe in them I couldn't.

[Neverender]

I'm a athiest/agnostic, I don't know the difference lol.
Whichever one I "formally" come under, I don't really care because I know what I believe in when it comes to religion...nothing.
My family are all athiests/agnostics as well and I've not adopted any religious beliefs because to me, they just seem so illogical that even if I wanted to believe in them I couldn't.

an athiest is someone who does not believe in any aspect of religion.

an agnostic is:

A. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.

B. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

an athiest is someone who does not believe in any aspect of religion.

an agnostic is:

A. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.

B. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

Technically we ALL have to remain agnostic. No matter how UNLIKELY magic pixies exist we can't say they are IMPOSSIBLE. Same thing goes for God, EXCEPT that this will always be impossible since NO ONE that actually believes in God can come to an agreement on WHAT god actually IS. I've never heard two "explanations" that were the same. Unless EVERYONE on the world had the SAME exact god, there will never be enough for us to even go on to venture a guess.

[MrBazooka]

I don't believe in god. I don't believe in any kind of religious philosophy or anything similer. It maks me angry to even think about the horrors of religion. I think we should all burn our bibles.

I did hear an interesting idology from a friend of mine though. He said, that this is what he got from the bible:

In the beginning god created a perfect world. And there was no sin or hate or any of that. But there was an uprising in heaven and Lucifer, God's most prized angel, was cast out of Heaven down into the pits of hell ((werever this "hell" is)) along with 2/3 of the angels of heaven. Satan then began to "fuck" with gods perfect world, tainting humankind. This created free will. A good against evil kind of dilema. And this tension between good and evil, between satan and god, will eventually snap, and the war of armageddon will be upon us. Humans simply cought in a power struggle between two heavenly beings. But we are the last army, whos side do we choose?

And the bible is so contradictory and BS becasue god is an absent god. He allows us to live independently and satan taints us. So literally, even the bible is no pure.


Its all bs of course. But interesting sounding. Would make a good book ((HAHAHAHAHAHA))


you are wrong, god is not absent, he loves us so much that he sent his only and beloved son(Jesus Christ) to be tortured desecrated and suffer on the cross and thus save us from Satan's power by offer his life in our souls place, and whoever believes shall live and rule with Jesus Christ for all eternity in heaven

maybe you ought to read whatever you are criticizing be for making a judgment of it

[Neverender]

Originally Posted by kolte
I don't believe in god. I don't believe in any kind of religious philosophy or anything similer. It maks me angry to even think about the horrors of religion. I think we should all burn our bibles.

I did hear an interesting idology from a friend of mine though. He said, that this is what he got from the bible:

In the beginning god created a perfect world. And there was no sin or hate or any of that. But there was an uprising in heaven and Lucifer, God's most prized angel, was cast out of Heaven down into the pits of hell ((werever this "hell" is)) along with 2/3 of the angels of heaven. Satan then began to "fuck" with gods perfect world, tainting humankind. This created free will. A good against evil kind of dilema. And this tension between good and evil, between satan and god, will eventually snap, and the war of armageddon will be upon us. Humans simply cought in a power struggle between two heavenly beings. But we are the last army, whos side do we choose?

And the bible is so contradictory and BS becasue god is an absent god. He allows us to live independently and satan taints us. So literally, even the bible is no pure.


Its all bs of course. But interesting sounding. Would make a good book ((HAHAHAHAHAHA))

you couldn't have made an older quote could you?


you are wrong, god is not absent, he loves us so much that he sent his only and beloved son(Jesus Christ) to be tortured desecrated and suffer on the cross and thus save us from Satan's power by offer his life in our souls place, and whoever believes shall live and rule with Jesus Christ for all eternity in heaven

maybe you ought to read whatever you are criticizing be for making a judgment of it

read what? a book thousands of years old that may not be at all the same as what it was at the beginning? just like we said earlier not to push athiestic views on us, don't push christianity so much. we have no proof that there is a god. we have no proof that there was a jesus christ. and right now you sound like your trying to convert us.

and whoever believes shall live and rule with Jesus Christ for all eternity in heaven

and if your a heavy christian, who'll end up raising a conservative family, very religious, you've come to the wrong place if your going to preach your views.

[The Resurrected One]

And if anybody starts preaching about homosexuality, then I will make sure you get what's coming.

[Neverender]

And if anybody starts preaching about homosexuality, then I will make sure you get what's coming.

ye knows its coming, eh b'y? id be so pissed if they did. if we have the heavily religious coming on here now, whats next?

[ThatCanadianGuy]

ye knows its coming, eh b'y? id be so pissed if they did. if we have the heavily religious coming on here now, whats next?

What's next? The cavalry's here gentlemen!

Bazooka; seriously. There are soo many things wrong with the whole crucifiction story, not from a HISTORICAL standpoint (though that is a problem too) but from a MORAL one.

Why did God have to send "himself" as a human to have such a brutal death for sins that he COULD forgive INSTANTLY since HE IS GOD! He didn't even have to have hell; if he's god he'd destroy sin RIGHT NOW and save everyone. IF he really is god and DOESN'T want that, then HE IS EVIL for sending people to hell that he could easily save.

Many people that DO believe in this god should have some SERIOUS questions and PROBLEMS with "him". Ask god to answer your prayer next time and explain to you WHY he sends people to hell for ETERNITY for FINITE crimes or for simply NOT believing in him. Here is a video FROM ME explaining my views on this:

oFdHy7Wk3mQ

[theOperaGhost]

Nice video, James.

Unfortunately, I have run out of arguments for Christianity. I never was, nor am I a very strong Christian, I just like debating. I have possibly come across as being someone who throws out all science and followed what a book says. This is not true though. I don't even know what this book says. I've never read the whole thing, and I quite likely never will. I'm going to keep my current faith in God, even though it is rather weak. Maybe some day it will get stronger, maybe one day it will die, I don't know. Whatever happens, happens. Although, I will still continue to debate with you, James, about many things. I love debating, even though I suck at it, and you are the most fun person around here to debate with thus far.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

Well thanks; though I must ask, if you aren't devoted at all and have such weak faith... why do you keep it up at all? I mean what is keeping you believing in this if its so weak? And yet again, like I've said to many people, the MORE of the Bible you read, the more you realize how very twisted the Christian god can be (not to mention all the things the bible gets WRONG i.e. evolution but I don't want to open THAT can of worms on this particular thread).

That's the biggest thing that could turn somebody away from their religion... if they actually KNEW its history and its problems.

[theOperaGhost]

DO NOT try to push me away from Christianity, EVER.

The reason I don't plan on reading the Bible, is because what I have read so far has all been contradictions. I don't know why I keep any faith at all. If I knew that, I would probably have a stronger faith.

I have always questioned what I truly am. I don't read the Bible, I almost never go to church. I've never prayed. Yet I still consider myself a Christian, and I don't know why.

The thing is, religion is part of life, and it always is going to be. If there were no such thing as religion, which has been one of the causes for most of the wars in history, do you think there wouldn't be war if religion wasn't established? I highly doubt that there wouldn't be war. Now I'm going to say some things I hate.

I hate when people claim religion is the root of all evil. It is true religion has played a major role in most wars in the past, but I can almost guarantee there would have still been wars if there weren't religion. There would still be land wars, wars for economy or systems of government, and I don't think religion has anything to do with wars based on race. Wars would still happen, whether religion existed or not.

The one thing I hate most are when people push their beliefs on others. I can't stand watching religious people who say anyone who doesn't praise God are all going to hell. It's simply not true and it bothers me that they are probably convincing some people of this. But it works the other way, too. I can't stand when atheists say religious people are all ignorant. I will admit that religious people are quite close-minded, but believing in something does not make a person ignorant. It pisses me off that a persons beliefs are so important. I've never gone up to a person and asked them what their religious beliefs are. I don't see any point to it. It's not going to affect me in any way to know, so I don't see why people care so damn much about what other people believe.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

I don't see why people care so damn much about what other people believe.

With all you've said, I'm really baffled that you still label yourself a Christian, I mean, no offence but "most" Christians (upon reading what you've said) would say you "aren't a REAL Christian" since you don't really do ANYTHING that this religion requires of you. And that is FINE to me, I just don't get why you'd still keep this label for yourself.

I care ESPECIALLY what people believe when it affects ME, which it does in a serious way. When 80% of the population of the most POWERFUL nation in the WORLD believe in nonsense... and USE their religion to make DECISIONS that affect EVERYONE... then I can't just shut up and let them "have their faith". Their "faith" is in control of the greatest military force in the world. That really scares me.

[Hyper]

When 80% of the population of the most POWERFUL nation in the WORLD believe in nonsense... and USE their religion to make DECISIONS that affect EVERYONE... then I can't just shut up and let them "have their faith". Their "faith" is in control of the greatest military force in the world. That really scares me.

And to them what you believe/think (whatever you want to call it to make yourself feel better) is nonsense

Plus I really don't appreciate you calling Christianity in general nonsense with all other religions.

[theOperaGhost]

With all you've said, I'm really baffled that you still label yourself a Christian, I mean, no offence but "most" Christians (upon reading what you've said) would say you "aren't a REAL Christian" since you don't really do ANYTHING that this religion requires of you. And that is FINE to me, I just don't get why you'd still keep this label for yourself.

I care ESPECIALLY what people believe when it affects ME, which it does in a serious way. When 80% of the population of the most POWERFUL nation in the WORLD believe in nonsense... and USE their religion to make DECISIONS that affect EVERYONE... then I can't just shut up and let them "have their faith". Their "faith" is in control of the greatest military force in the world. That really scares me.

I think what it comes down to for me, is denomination. I'm Lutheran, and I think the Lutheran teaching is basically all sins are forgiven, no matter what. I think most Lutherans have a much weaker faith (I'm not sure if that's the word I want to use), then say people of the Assemblies of God church or other denominations of Christianity. That doesn't mean we believe less, it just means we feel we don't have to do as much to gain forgiveness. Where Catholics have confession and Assemblies of God have intensive worship and praise. Denomination has a lot to do with it. I have a Lutheran faith, which isn't as hard core as others.

[Malcolm Tucker]

I'm mainly a practicing Roman Catholic (norm. in R.O. Ireland) but however, some parts of the faith I don't agree with, so I am slightly humanist as well. It's weird, we covered this like on Friday in school :L

[dyslexiaa]

Until God comes down on a fiery chariot, I'm athiest. I used to be mildly religious out of fear of damnation but after a few years of trauma, I lost it.

Religion in general has caused so much persecution and suffering that I can't support it. There is very little earthly good that has come out of religion in comparison to all the dead, exiled, and shunned.

As long as religion effects me and others, I disapprove.

[Curthose93]

And to them what you believe/think (whatever you want to call it to make yourself feel better) is nonsense

Plus I really don't appreciate you calling Christianity in general nonsense WITH ALL OTHER RELIGIONS. (Emphasis added to quote)

I'll bet that you're a Christian.

Aynway, I am an atheist. Although the universe obviously had to start somewhere (the unmoved mover, I think it's called), the religious assertions that this mover was an intelligent force, and even more that it is still 'in operation' today are wild 'leaps of faith' with no base in reality. They make no sense, so they are nonsense.

[Hyper]

(Emphasis added to quote)

I'll bet that you're a Christian.

Aynway, I am an atheist. Although the universe obviously had to start somewhere (the unmoved mover, I think it's called), the religious assertions that this mover was an intelligent force, and even more that it is still 'in operation' today are wild 'leaps of faith' with no base in reality. They make no sense, so they are nonsense.

Wait and you think that the ''unmoved mover'' is more sensible without being intelligent or everlasting? I don't see any difference between the two concepts.

And I see no logic to you quoting me, where I quote him on bashing in general..

[ThatCanadianGuy]

Aynway, I am an atheist. Although the universe obviously had to start somewhere (the unmoved mover, I think it's called), the religious assertions that this mover was an intelligent force, and even more that it is still 'in operation' today are wild 'leaps of faith' with no base in reality. They make no sense, so they are nonsense.

I agree with the second half; assertations that make no rational sense.... are nonsensical. Plain and simple. HOWEVER I must shed some light on the "unmoved mover" argument as it were.

The universe DOES NOT require a creator, or was even created. The most plausible explanation we have at this time with our current scientific knowledge is that the universe ALWAYS EXISTED.

I'm sure you guys know the deal that energy and matter can not be created or destroyed. That means that BOTH energy and matter are eternal; thus they always have existed before "time" was even a factor.

Time itself is just a human invention for organizing our lives. Time as an actual "thing" doesn't even exist. We just "use it" as an easier way to describe change, such as the change of state (i.e. matter into energy and vice versa).

So there you have it; the universe has ALWAYS existed. So of course it was not "created".

Ta daaa... magic.

[Curthose93]

The universe DOES NOT require a creator, or was even created. The most plausible explanation we have at this time with our current scientific knowledge is that the universe ALWAYS EXISTED.

I'm sure you guys know the deal that energy and matter can not be created or destroyed. That means that BOTH energy and matter are eternal; thus they always have existed before "time" was even a factor.

Time itself is just a human invention for organizing our lives. Time as an actual "thing" doesn't even exist. We just "use it" as an easier way to describe change, such as the change of state (i.e. matter into energy and vice versa).

So there you have it; the universe has ALWAYS existed. So of course it was not "created".

Ta daaa... magic.

I guess that you're right. As you said, if neither matter nor energy can be destroyed nor created, only converted between the two states(like in nuclear reactions), then there is no identifiable starting point for their existence-- to our knowledge.

I don't even remember where I heard about this "Unmoved Mover" in the first place. The whole idea of an object requiring the action of an outside force to get itself moving is complete and utter garbage at such a universal level, as I have known for a while now.

That is one thing I have never been able to decide upon: Does it make more sense for the universe to be eternal, or to have been created?

I think that there's not enough of a reason to accept that it is eternal. Our own (potential)ignorance isn't enough to make it's perpetuality more likely.

There is also not nearly enough reason to believe it was created. We have no evidence that there was a time before the universe, so to our knowledge, this supposed time is merely fantasy.

Either way, it doesn't matter. If the universe is in reality eternal, then we will never be able to answer this question. If it can be traced to a starting point, then the question of how it came into existence needs to be answered, followed by the question of how what caused its creation came into existence, and how that came into existence.... concievably forever, right?

[Neverender]

With all you've said, I'm really baffled that you still label yourself a Christian, I mean, no offence but "most" Christians (upon reading what you've said) would say you "aren't a REAL Christian" since you don't really do ANYTHING that this religion requires of you. And that is FINE to me, I just don't get why you'd still keep this label for yourself.

well im not very anglican, i went to church once or twice, got baptised. golly.

i still label myself as anglican. im not sure why, though im not very christian at all, i still take pride in being anglican. i just find being anglican is better then being athiest; hoping that theres a better place (which there probably isn't, but be optimistic) after death then just being dead for 10 trillion years.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

well im not very anglican, i went to church once or twice, got baptised. golly.

i still label myself as anglican. im not sure why, though im not very christian at all, i still take pride in being anglican. i just find being anglican is better then being athiest; hoping that theres a better place (which there probably isn't, but be optimistic) after death then just being dead for 10 trillion years.

Actually you'll be "just dead" for much longer than 10 trillion years. Try an eternity. Hey; its better than hell, and its DEFINITELY better than having to be in heaven with all the fundamentalists! :D

Think about it; people are so lazy, they can't wait for the 20 MINUTES of worship each sunday to end. Try having to praise god NON-STOP FOREVER. I'd rather be in hell :P

But if you use this "anglican" label as just a scapegoat... you know, like a last-ditch effort to save your own ass from hell... wouldn't god (if he actually existed) send you to hell anyway? Since you barely even believe it, and are just using it as a hell-insurance policy, you know?

Hey, when people talk about the "afterlife" I say that I'm "all for it". I mean who wouldn't want to live or have something more after this life. I sure WISH it was like that, but I KNOW that it really isn't. Unlike you (not meaning to single you out) and many other theists, I am MORE concerned with what is actually TRUE, over what is just emotionally comforting with no basis in reality (heaven).

[Neverender]

Actually you'll be "just dead" for much longer than 10 trillion years. Try an eternity. Hey; its better than hell, and its DEFINITELY better than having to be in heaven with all the fundamentalists! :D

Think about it; people are so lazy, they can't wait for the 20 MINUTES of worship each sunday to end. Try having to praise god NON-STOP FOREVER. I'd rather be in hell :P

But if you use this "anglican" label as just a scapegoat... you know, like a last-ditch effort to save your own ass from hell... wouldn't god (if he actually existed) send you to hell anyway? Since you barely even believe it, and are just using it as a hell-insurance policy, you know?

Hey, when people talk about the "afterlife" I say that I'm "all for it". I mean who wouldn't want to live or have something more after this life. I sure WISH it was like that, but I KNOW that it really isn't. Unlike you (not meaning to single you out) and many other theists, I am MORE concerned with what is actually TRUE, over what is just emotionally comforting with no basis in reality (heaven).

I really like this thread..

well the universe'll probably collapse in about 10 trillion years, then another big bang'll start off.

we're not lazy. we just like to sleep in. i get about 3 hours of sleep each weeknight, i do nothing but exist. i have nearly no life. by the time friday hits im so tired i just fall asleep for 14 hours. if it wasn't for weekends, i'd probably be dead. so i don't bother to go to church. (oh, and there is no church in my town, forgot to mention that). im not using anglicanism as a scapegoat, i just like being in a religion. i don't believe it, but i don't not believe it. im slightly agnostic, but im not using the anglicanism as a way to escape hell. and the afterlife thing, who wouldn't want to live in a better world then this?; but yes, the reality is that we all perish and nothing happens afterwards.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

I really like this thread..

well the universe'll probably collapse in about 10 trillion years, then another big bang'll start off.

.

Not really; the universe is relatively young in the state that it's in now. With only 13.7 billion years from the starting line, it's gonna be a much longer time until it reaches the "end". It will take so much time to even get CLOSE to the heat-death that our units of time don't really matter by that time.

That, and we're not sure another Big Bang will start off; the big crunch theory is kinda losing its ground in the light of new data. The most likely fate of the universe is that it will just keep expanding and eventually die when the entire space reaches absolute zero temperature, all reactions stop, and everything pretty much ceases to exist except for particles smaller than atoms, such as quarks, photon rays, etc.

Here's an EXCELLENT series that will tell you how the universe ends!

mNs-tzCtZEE

[Whisper]

Ya but even that could be proven wrong with quantum geometry


the fact of the matter is as a species we are extremely young even by our own little young planets standards
and have no fucking idea
how it started or how it will end
were extremely curious and were trying to figure it out, rationalize it either through religion or scientific theories
but the fact remains
WE
DON'T
KNOW

[theOperaGhost]

Ya but even that could be proven wrong with quantum geometry


the fact of the matter is as a species we are extremely young even by our own little young planets standards
and have no fucking idea
how it started or how it will end
were extremely curious and were trying to figure it out, rationalize it either through religion or scientific theories
but the fact remains
WE
DON'T
KNOW

Exactamente!!! You are brilliant, Kodie, because that is probably the best post I've seen on this thread.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

Ya but even that could be proven wrong with quantum geometry


the fact of the matter is as a species we are extremely young even by our own little young planets standards
and have no fucking idea
how it started or how it will end
were extremely curious and were trying to figure it out, rationalize it either through religion or scientific theories
but the fact remains
WE
DON'T
KNOW


QFT for sure.

But we arent' getting anywhere with religion. I'd LOVE to "know" all the things that we haven't discovered yet. I know I'll never do that in my lifetime, but I also know that the BEST way for us to better ourselves and increase our understanding of the universe is through science. Reading over a 2,000 year old book that tells you how to keep slaves and that the earth is flat is NOT going to help us in this ultimate search for knowledge.

[Perseus]

umm... the Bible does not state "the Earth is flat" get your facts straight Canadian Man.