Religion

[Genghis Khan]

It isn't a plan that is written at birth, you can change it whenever you want. God didn't set up a plan for you, you choose it. That's why it's called free will

And I suppose this free will allows me to choose my beliefs based on factual observation... oh wait.

[Maxxie]

And I suppose this free will allows me to choose my beliefs based on factual observation... oh wait.

Win.

I'm an agnostic atheist. And Tim Minchin pretty much sums up my beliefs...

"Science Adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved"

If science EVER proves God beyond a reasonable doubt, then I will wholeheartedly subscribe to a theistic spirituality (but not necessarily Christianity). Until, then... "Not enough evidence, God. Not enough evidence.

[Ben Michael]

I'm a Southern Baptist

[StoppingTime]

Win.

I'm an agnostic atheist. And Tim Minchin pretty much sums up my beliefs...

"Science Adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved"

If science EVER proves God beyond a reasonable doubt, then I will wholeheartedly subscribe to a theistic spirituality (but not necessarily Christianity). Until, then... "Not enough evidence, God. Not enough evidence.

Why does God need to prove his existence? He obviously does due to the Bible.

[Angel Androgynous]

Who wrote the bible? Oh right mankind. If it's "God's word" why didn't HE write it and translate it into all the languages and place it in our heads for us to remember?

God is a spaghetti monster.
Prove me wrong. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhZqpVuwlug)

[RoseyCadaver]

I believe there is a god out there,but I think of him more as an energy.I think he can take human form or shape,but I doubt that is it's true form.There for,God is genderless.I also think there might be an afterlife,and he'll accept anyone who comes.Even if they have done many horrors,he is all loving,why would he want some people to rot in hell?
Why does God need to prove his existence? He obviously does due to the Bible.


Wait,who said God was a man?Oh right,the male pope, preachers,and male bishops.Not saying all bishops and preachers believe that,just most I know or have met do.

[Perseus]

Why does God need to prove his existence? He obviously does due to the Bible.

Well, in that case, Shiva exists, Zeus exists, every religious figure exists.

[Angel Androgynous]

Yeah if there is a God he doesn't give a crap... that's why there is rape and murder and starvation and suffering in this world. C:


I am spiritual and believe in some sort of afterlife, but not necessarily heaven or hell. :/ For me it's just some kind of reassurance than anything else.

[StoppingTime]

Well, in that case, Shiva exists, Zeus exists, every religious figure exists.

Obviously, I do not believe in this, seeing as in the Bible (or the Old Testament, I do not know about the New Testament) it is written that there is no being capable of ever being higher than God, or able to control anything like He does.

[RoseyCadaver]

Again with the he.Are you just positive(if there is one)god is a male figure?Or even human?

[Maxxie]

Obviously, I do not believe in this, seeing as in the Bible (or the Old Testament, I do not know about the New Testament) it is written that there is no being capable of ever being higher than God, or able to control anything like He does.

YOUR logic is taking a holy book as complete and utter fact. So, honestly, by this logic, the Vedas could tell of Brahman, the Qur'an of Allah, the Torah of Yahweh, the Druidic Codices of Goddess, et cetera.

Actually, I smell a troll. Then again, it's hard to differentiate between trolls and close minded Theists.

[StoppingTime]

Again with the he.Are you just positive(if there is one)god is a male figure?Or even human?

First off, I know God is, has, and always will be, and the reason a He is written is because God cannot be seen as male nor female, and this is how He is addressed in english. In Hebrew (the Bible's original language) it is written like this, but with no meaning that God is male or female.

[StoppingTime]

YOUR logic is taking a holy book as complete and utter fact. So, honestly, by this logic, the Vedas could tell of Brahman, the Qur'an of Allah, the Torah of Yahweh, the Druidic Codices of Goddess, et cetera.

Actually, I smell a troll. Then again, it's hard to differentiate between trolls and close minded Theists.

Yes it is complete fact. However, I of course do not believe that any other holy book is true other than the Torah.

[Maxxie]

Why does God need to prove his existence? He obviously does due to the Bible.

Well, there's this little thing called evidence. And it's kind of necessary for any rational person if they want to believe something.

First off, I know God is, has, and always will be, and the reason a He is written is because God cannot be seen as male nor female, and this is how He is addressed in english. In Hebrew (the Bible's original language) it is written like this, but with no meaning that God is male or female.

I can see your point, as we have no genderless personal pronouns, and you wouldn't want to call a deity "It", as that would imply a lack of solidarity. Which, you know, is already lacing due to a little thing called nonexistence, but it's a valid point.

[StoppingTime]

I can see your point, as we have no genderless personal pronouns, and you wouldn't want to call a deity "It", as that would imply a lack of solidarity. Which, you know, is already lacing due to a little thing called nonexistence, but it's a valid point.

I understand that you do not believe in the Torah, or The Torah's God. But how could you possibly know He doesn't exist.
Your question to me is "how could I know he does exist", and I see why you could ask. The answer is is because it says so in the Torah, and no, I have no physical evidence, that I can show you but that is because that is not how God wants it to be.

[Maxxie]

I understand that you do not believe in the Torah, or The Torah's God. But how could you possibly know He doesn't exist.
Your question to me is "how could I know he does exist", and I see why you could ask. The answer is is because it says so in the Torah, and no, I have no physical evidence, that I can show you but that is because that is not how God wants it to be.

If I had a dime for every time I heard this argument...

How can you be so sure he DOES exist?

It says so in the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster that the FSM exists, and we are all graced by his noodly appendage (I however, have not been graced with any sort of noodly appendage, sadly... :lol:).

[StoppingTime]

If I had a dime for every time I heard this argument...

How can you be so sure he DOES exist?

I removed your other quote because i find it insulting, but anyway, I can be sure He exists because it says it in the Torah.. (I think I mentioned that already...):)

[Maxxie]

I removed your other quote because i find it insulting, but anyway, I can be sure He exists because it says it in the Torah.. (I think I mentioned that already...):)

Sorry for insulting you mate, didn't mean it to be like that, just showing a fallacy in your argument.

Seeing as how I have insulted someone (among other reasons), I am retiring from this religious debate.

[StoppingTime]

Sorry for insulting you mate, didn't mean it to be like that, just showing a fallacy in your argument.

Seeing as how I have insulted someone (among other reasons), I am retiring from this religious debate.

kk and I am not trying to change ur mind btw

[Maxxie]

kk and I am not trying to change ur mind btw

There's no point in trying, mate. ;)

[Angel Androgynous]

*Sigh*
Believe what you want, you don't KNOW whether he exists or not.


I believe in unicorns and flying spaghetti monsters.
Prove me wrong.


Oh right, we made unicorns and fairies and mermaids up.

Just like we made religion up as an explanation.



BTW if life started 6,000 years ago (according to the oh so believable bible) where the heck did the dinosaurs go? :P

[Maxxie]

BTW if life started 6,000 years ago (according to the oh so believable bible) where the heck did the dinosaurs go? :P

To the Smithsonian...

[Angel Androgynous]

Why is it when God talks to Mathew, he's a prophet and when he talks to me, I'm schizophrenic? What makes Mathew so special? :c

[Maxxie]

Why is it when God talks to Mathew, he's a prophet and when he talks to me, I'm schizophrenic? What makes Mathew so special? :c

Funny thing, the friend who I referenced in the "For Fuck's Sake" thread is named Matthew...

[Angel Androgynous]

Ha ha. x)

*sigh* George Carlin just says it best..... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o)

[Maxxie]

Ha ha. x)

*sigh* George Carlin just says it best..... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o)

Always...

[StoppingTime]

Why is it when God talks to Mathew, he's a prophet and when he talks to me, I'm schizophrenic? What makes Mathew so special? :c

There is a reason the God stopped the age of the Prophets (and I don't believe in that part of the Bible; New Testament)

[StoppingTime]

*Sigh*
Believe what you want, you don't KNOW whether he exists or not.


I believe in unicorns and flying spaghetti monsters.
Prove me wrong.


Oh right, we made unicorns and fairies and mermaids up.

Just like we made religion up as an explanation.



BTW if life started 6,000 years ago (according to the oh so believable bible) where the heck did the dinosaurs go? :P

You can believe in whatever you want, but to me, it is useless. I choose to believe in the Torah, it is my religion. And no, we didn't make religion up (religion being the Torah Old Testemant, Prophets (not gospels) and Scriptures

[Angel Androgynous]

Humans made up religion as an explanation for stuff that they couldn't explain. The end. Believe in it if you want.

[Maxxie]

Humans made up religion as an explanation for stuff that they couldn't explain. The end. Believe in it if you want.

In the beginning, Man created God.

[Perseus]

You can believe in whatever you want, but to me, it is useless. I choose to believe in the Torah, it is my religion. And no, we didn't make religion up (religion being the Torah Old Testemant, Prophets (not gospels) and Scriptures

Why are there numerous religions explaining the same thing, then?

[Amnesiac]

Why does God need to prove his existence? He obviously does due to the Bible.

I will never, ever understand the logic you put into statements like this. Probably because you don't.

I'm not trying to be an asshole, but almost every religious person I've ever met has never actually taken a few minutes to think over the logical fallacies that have infested their brainwashed heads. They just go along with it, squandering their lives as sheep in a church; mindlessly listening to readings from a book that hasn't done any good for humanity for hundreds of years. The backwards logic of religion is one of the main factors that has created this boring, morally-based society we live in today. Religion is what keeps so many people intellectually and philosophically boxed-in, unwilling to consider concepts that are considered "bad". Religion, in too many cases, supports butting into the lives of completely innocent individuals to enforce arbitrary moral codes in their private activities. Thanks to religion and the ridiculously strict social conservatism it has spawned, nobody is willing to take any alternative philosophical and political viewpoints into consideration anymore.

I could go on all day, really.

[music is my soul]

Humans made up religion as an explanation for stuff that they couldn't explain. The end. Believe in it if you want.

I really dont want go go jumping into this but how do u know that humans "made up" religion.

[Angel Androgynous]

I really dont want go go jumping into this but how do u know that humans "made up" religion.

._. Do you REALLY want me to answer that or are you going to realize what you just said? How do you know humans "made up" unicorns, fairies, mermaids, fairy tales, and goblins?

[Harlequin]

Yes but the war in heaven was fought over free agency (free will) so it dose not matter if he showed himself in earlier times to both the jews and the early native Americans.

i do not understand what you don't understand so i cannot address your question directly.

[Iris]

You can believe in whatever you want, but to me, it is useless. I choose to believe in the Torah, it is my religion. And no, we didn't make religion up (religion being the Torah Old Testemant, Prophets (not gospels) and Scriptures

Tell me, have you ever read through the Torah? Did you read about the rules about rape, slavery and the death penalty for the smallest crimes? Are you ok with all of them?

And also do you know about or believe in Oral Law (called Torah she'baal peh)?

How much about Judaism do you really know?

Oh how do you know that the Jews actually traipsed through the desert, and were given the Torah? How do you know it's not a bunch of legends concocted by some tribes that developed in Israel? The Torah intertwines stories and lessons/laws, which is what many other civilizations' legends are like. How do you know what the Torah really is?

And if you're ever read the many books of Prophets, you'll know that right before a prophet prophesies, they have a sort of seizure. And the majority of them get their prophesies in dreams. That doesn't make it true. That means they possibly have a disorder or, at the very least, a very active imagination. I've been forced to spend countless hours reading all the Rabbinical authorities throughout the ages reasoning's on these texts. You can't imagine how many discrepancies in the text there are. For example, prophecies that never happen. Prophecies that literally can't happen.

Also: Angel Androgynous-exactly. My theory has always been that religion is the ultimate defense mechanism. It puts people's minds at ease.
And in response to another of your posts-some Jewish religious leaders believe that the world isn't actually 5,000 and something years old, but that's simply when civilization started. Their reasoning is that a day for god is probably a few hundred or so millenia for humans. Just putting that out there.

Maxxie-"In the beginning, Man created God." So perfect.

[Genghis Khan]

I really dont want go go jumping into this but how do u know that humans "made up" religion.

http://www.myfacewhen.net/uploads/338-squidward-doesnt-care.jpg

Please tell me that's a joke.

[Apparitions]

Why does God need to prove his existence? He obviously does due to the Bible.
This statement is so full of failure, I can't even be bothered to address it :D .

[SosbanFach]

I don't need proof for the existence of God. Proof undermines faith. I believe that there is a God. I don't try to shove my religion in other peoples faces, but instead believe what I want, and let others believe what they want. Two philosophical arguments that make me believe are "Nothing comes from nothing.", a statement by Thomas Aquinas, and William Paley's watchmaker argument. This is not to say that I don't believe in the 'Big Bang' or evolution; I feel that my religion and belief in science can co-exist side by side. I don't take the Bible literally, in fact I ignore a good deal of it, but I still consider myself Christian.

[Jimmy Page]

I have to be honest,for me all of the religious books and texts basically say the exact same things(not trying to offend anyone by saying that),with some differences that can come from what was custom at the time and place the different texts was written down(maybe,i don't know enough to say that for sure but for me it sounds logical).

I don't bother myself with wondering why someone believes this and that,as long as the person don't run around an try to convert everyone,or have hate against a certain group of people(gays or blacks for example).
People believe what they believe and there is very little you can do to change that,you just have to live with it.

[SosbanFach]

Most religions are indeed very similar, but with a few fundamental differences. Prime examples of this are Christianity and Judaism. The both of them believe in the Old Testament, however Jews do not believe that Christ was the Lord's son, as Christians do, but simply a messenger sent by God. They both believe that one should live by the Ten Commandments, but the religion of Judaism has another 603 besides that. They have different customs, but they are very similar religions.

[Perseus]

I don't need proof for the existence of God. Proof undermines faith. I believe that there is a God. I don't try to shove my religion in other peoples faces, but instead believe what I want, and let others believe what they want. Two philosophical arguments that make me believe are "Nothing comes from nothing.", a statement by Thomas Aquinas, and William Paley's watchmaker argument. This is not to say that I don't believe in the 'Big Bang' or evolution; I feel that my religion and belief in science can co-exist side by side. I don't take the Bible literally, in fact I ignore a good deal of it, but I still consider myself Christian.

If nothing comes from nothing, where did God come from?

[Magus]

If nothing comes from nothing, where did God come from?
From another God. Ad Infinitum.

[Iris]

Most religions are indeed very similar,

Because they're based on each other.

The both of them believe in the Old Testament, however Jews do not believe that Christ was the Lord's son, as Christians do, but simply a messenger sent by God.

THey both follow the Old Testament because the early Christians were originally Jews. And they still considered themselves Jews as well. Also most Jews don't believe Jesus was a messenger from God. Most thought (and still think) that he's actually some crackpot heretic.

They both believe that one should live by the Ten Commandments, but the religion of Judaism has another 603 besides that. They have different customs, but they are very similar religions.

Jews believe in another 603 because there is another 603 written in the bible. If the Christians believed the bible was true, they should be following the other 603 as well. But they don't, for convenience.

You should know more about religion if you're going to debate about it.

[StoppingTime]

Humans made up religion as an explanation for stuff that they couldn't explain. The end. Believe in it if you want.

Again, there is no way for you to prove your claim. I can prove that God exists every second of every day due to what is written in Torah. God wrote it (with Moses, some say), and He is in it. The reason God doesn't prove his existence like he did in the days of the Torah is because he doesn't need to, because he already had. For example, in the story of Egypt. It is said that when Moses was talking is talking to the Pharaoh, the Pharaoh had his magicians. They threw their staffs, and they turned into serpents. Moses' did the same, although his ate the others. When Moses split the red sea, that was God preforming the action through him. Why should he need to do this during your life to prove he exists?

Why are there numerous religions explaining the same thing, then?

I do not understand what this has to do with anything. The Torah was written first, the other religions are based from it.

Tell me, have you ever read through the Torah? Did you read about the rules about rape, slavery and the death penalty for the smallest crimes? Are you ok with all of them?

I am surprised that you are asking such a question if you have been in religious school our whole life and you don't know this. These laws cannot be defined like that today. When God gave the Torah to the Jews in the desert, Moses would teach it to them. They understood it perfectly because they were on such a high level of spiritually. Today, nobody is on the same level as them. This is why we need commentators on the the Torah like Rashi Ibn Ezra etc... They can help us understand what the Torah means, not by looking at the translation as we understand it now, but rather, they try to once again show us what the Laws are during the time the Torah was given.

If nothing comes from nothing, where did God come from?

Who said nothing comes from nothing? That statement is ridiculous. (no offense :))

****

Good God a quadruple post? Dude, next time just use the multi-quote feature or the edit button. 4 Posts is a bit ridiculous. - Michael (Hank Scorpio)

[Maxxie]

http://unreasonablefaith.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/EE2Qx-590x442.png

[Perseus]

I do not understand what this has to do with anything. The Torah was written first, the other religions are based from it.
The Vedas are older. Try again. And your sentence makes no sense whatsoever. The Fertile Crescent region had religions before the Jews became their own culture. So you need to go learn about world history before you say anything.
Who said nothing comes from nothing? That statement is ridiculous. (no offense :))

The person I quoted, and that's the only way any kind of deity could exist.

[Jess]

Humans made up religion as an explanation for stuff that they couldn't explain. The end. Believe in it if you want.

exactly.

doesn't science prove more things than RELIGION?

EDIT: wait, why am I asking this question? of course it does!

[StoppingTime]

The Rig Vedas are older. Try again.

Is that a holy book at all like the Torah? I didn't say that Judaism was the first religion, or religious book, but its God was, is, and will always be the only One.

[Iris]

I am surprised that you are asking such a question if you have been in religious school our whole life and you don't know this. These laws cannot be defined like that today. When God gave the Torah to the Jews in the desert, Moses would teach it to them. They understood it perfectly because they were on such a high level of spiritually. Today, nobody is on the same level as them. This is why we need commentators on the the Torah like Rashi Ibn Ezra etc... They can help us understand what the Torah means, not by looking at the translation as we understand it now, but rather, they try to once again show us what the Laws are during the time the Torah was given.

Interesting that you ignored all the other points in my post. I'll repeat, how do you know the Torah was even written by God and Moses? How do you know that it isn't a bunch of legends written down to teach lessons and fabricate a more fanciful origin for the people living in Israel?

Oh hon, you don't want to go down the "we're on a lower spiritual level" path. I've heard it many times before. The people in the Torah made huge errors in morality all the time. Do you know the story of the leader of shevet shimon, Zimri who had sex with Kazbi bat Tzor? Was he on a higher level? And lets not forget Yehudah, who picked off a prostitute on the side of the road. Oh and Rus and Orpah, both Non-Jewish, who the sons of Avimelech and Naomi married. They were also on a higher level, weren't they? Oh yes, Rashi and the Ramban and all the others quickly rush to say how really it was the spirituality, they had ruach hakodesh that they were supposed to do what they did, and that puts everyone's minds at ease, that their heroes, who are on a higher level than them did those things for spiritual reasons. It's crap. Trust me you don't want me to get into how ridiculous torah sh'baal peh is.

No matter what level you're on, it's not ok to let a rapist of an unmarried girl go free with just a small payment to her father (and though the meforshim dutifully explain that it's because the girl is her father's property, until she gets married and becomes her husband's, so the case is treated like thievery, somehow that doesn't make it any better). It's not ok to be killed because you planted some seeds on the seventh day of the week. You know, 5772 years ago, when you believe the world started, is really not that long. And since the Torah was given on 2448, that even lessens the time allotted for this drastic change in spirituality. Prove to me that we're on a lower level. Because everything they had then, we have now. Except for the stoning and other forms of capital punishment (hot lead, anyone?) that governments thankfully outlawed.

[Perseus]

Is that a holy book at all like the Torah? I didn't say that Judaism was the first religion, or religious book, but its God was, is, and will always be the only One.

You are an ignorant child. The Vedas belong to the Hindus, who had their religion long before the Jews crafted their. You said the Jews had religion first. I'll even quote you.
The Torah was written first, the other religions are based from it.
You have no idea what you're talking about. I suggest you go learn about the other religions of the world and take a history class because your ignorance is radiating.

[StoppingTime]

Interesting that you ignored all the other points in my post. I'll repeat, how do you know the Torah was even written by God and Moses? How do you know that it isn't a bunch of legends written down to teach lessons and fabricate a more fanciful origin for the people living in Israel?

Oh hon, you don't want to go down the "we're on a lower spiritual level" path. I've heard it many times before. The people in the Torah made huge errors in morality all the time. Do you know the story of the leader of shevet shimon, Zimri who had sex with Kazbi bat Tzor? Was he on a higher level? And lets not forget Yehudah, who picked off a prostitute on the side of the road. Oh and Rus and Orpah, both Non-Jewish, who the sons of Avimelech and Naomi married. They were also on a higher level, weren't they? Oh yes, Rashi and the Ramban and all the others quickly rush to say how really it was the spirituality, they had ruach hakodesh that they were supposed to do what they did, and that puts everyone's minds at ease, that their heroes, who are on a higher level than them did those things for spiritual reasons. It's crap. Trust me you don't want me to get into how ridiculous torah sh'baal peh is.

No matter what level you're on, it's not ok to let a rapist of an unmarried girl go free with just a small payment to her father (and though the meforshim dutifully explain that it's because the girl is her father's property, until she gets married and becomes her husband's, so the case is treated like thievery, somehow that doesn't make it any better). It's not ok to be killed because you planted some seeds on the seventh day of the week. You know, 5772 years ago, when you believe the world started, is really not that long. And since the Torah was given on 2448, that even lessens the time allotted for this drastic change in spirituality. Prove to me that we're on a lower level. Because everything they had then, we have now. Except for the stoning and other forms of capital punishment (hot lead, anyone?) that governments thankfully outlawed.

First off, yes I do know the story with Zimri. He didn't do this randomly. What happened was that Bilam said that Moabi women should go try to entice the Jewish men by making them do Avodah Zara and have sex with them. and those who did were put to death by stoning (b/c of Avodah Zara) and then hanged. They didn't do it randomly, and they were on a high spiritual level then. They also did make mistakes, but here is no was that we can compare them to people of today, it just isn't possible.

Also, as I stated before, that may not have been exactly what happened. This is why we have to listen to the Mefarshim because they can help is relearn the laws that were taught to the Jews then, you can't just look at a translation.
And you wouldn't get killed immediately if you were Mechalel Shabbos. You would of course need to two witnesses and then to Bayt Din etc... And it is said that any Bayt Din that kills someone was highly unlikely, and they were cllaed a killing Bayt Din.

Zimri: Name Moab(i): tribe and tribespeople. Avodah Zara: idol worship.
Mefarshim (Rashi Ramban): Commentators on Torah Mechalel Shabbos: Breaking the Sbbath. Bayt Din: Jewish Courts

You are an ignorant child. The Vedas belong to the Hindus, who had their religion long before the Jews crafted their. You said the Jews had religion first. I'll even quote you.

You have no idea what you're talking about. I suggest you go learn about the other religions of the world and take a history class because your ignorance is radiating.

I should have been more clear, and no I am not ignorant. When I said this, I was referring to how some religions are based off of Torah, but the Torah was the first of those.

.... put in other reply

****

Once again, please use multi-quote or the edit button. Not telling you again... - Michael

[Perseus]

I should have been more clear, and no I am not ignorant. When I said this, I was referring to how some religions are based off of Torah, but the Torah was the first of those.

I wasn't talking about Christianity or Islam.

[StoppingTime]

I wasn't talking about Christianity or Islam.

Your not understanding what I'm saying. I am saying that the Jew's were the first people to believe in the God of the Torah. The Hindu's may have had the first religion, but it is meaningless to me.

[Perseus]

Your not understanding what I'm saying. I am saying that the Jew's were the first people to believe in the God of the Torah. The Hindu's may have had the first religion, but it is meaningless to me.

I understand what you are saying. You just need to be aware of what you said.

[Maxxie]

"I contend that we are both atheists. I simply believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all other possible gods, you will understand why I didmiss yours."

Linguistics aside, basically sums up any argument I might have.

[Angel Androgynous]

Hindu is meaningless to him. xD oh my.... so what makes your religion so..."speshul?" Hmm? You have zero proof whatsoever. You are following absolutely blind faith, child. The Torah prooves nothing. It was written by man to explain things. How do you know that those aren't legends? What if some attention whore wrote them? What if some dude just wrote it for the lulz? What if it is just an explination for people four thousand years ago who knew nothing but the Torah? ._.

[Maxxie]

Hindu is meaningless to him. xD oh my.... so what makes your religion so..."speshul?" Hmm? You have zero proof whatsoever. You are following absolutely blind faith, child. The Torah prooves nothing. It was written by man to explain things. How do you know that those aren't legends? What if some attention whore wrote them? What if some dude just wrote it for the lulz? What if it is just an explination for people four thousand years ago who knew nothing but the Tora? ._.

Four thousand year old trolls? A Biblical lulzsec? :D

[Iris]

It's funny how you pick and chose what you decide to answer. I shouldn't be surprised though; that's a common theme in religious societies.

First off, yes I do know the story with Zimri. He didn't do this randomly. What happened was that Bilam said that Moabi women should go try to entice the Jewish men by making them do Avodah Zara and have sex with them. and those who did were put to death by stoning (b/c of Avodah Zara) and then hanged. They didn't do it randomly, and they were on a high spiritual level then. They also did make mistakes, but here is no was that we can compare them to people of today, it just isn't possible.

I'll repeat: Zimri had sex with her. I've heard all the reasoning behind it by the meforshim. Tell me, which one will you pick to justify this one? You relaying the story doesn't prove anything. The leader of a shevet, one of the 'highest level' people around at that time had sex with a random woman. Someone on such a high level shouldn't be making a mistake like that. Where I live NO ONE would EVER do something like that. And we're at the era of Ikvisa Dimishicha, supposedly the lowest level before the messiah. I'd say they're equal, if not on a higher level. Oh and thanks for also pointing out another thing they did wrong. they went around worshiping the Ba'al Zevuv, practically right after they got the Torah and heard God's voice. If any Jew now went through that, they wouldn't have gone off having sex with random women and serving idols. Go on, try and justify that.

You're just spitting out what your teachers taught you think-how the Jews then were on a higher level than now. You don't have any real, solid reasoning to prove that. I know what that's like; I've been there. But unlike you, I realized how brainwashed I was becoming.

Also, as I stated before, that may not have been exactly what happened. This is why we have to listen to the Mefarshim because they can help is relearn the laws that were taught to the Jews then, you can't just look at a translation.
And you wouldn't get killed immediately if you were Mechalel Shabbos. You would of course need to two witnesses and then to Bayt Din etc... And it is said that any Bayt Din that kills someone was highly unlikely, and they were cllaed a killing Bayt Din.

How do you know the meforshim aren't making stuff up? Hm? And it definitely doesn't help that they constantly contradict each other, but "they're all right," which makes it even more ridiculous. If one says the Jews were here, and the other says the Jews were there, one of them is wrong. Who are you, or they, to decide pieces of the Torah are literal and some aren't? Maybe the whole Torah was just a lesson to teach us how crazy people will go to feel secure about themselves and therefore create huge complex sets of laws that they call their religion. How do you know? How do the meforshim? Who says they actually have ruach hakodesh?? You need to learn to question things, things that you're not allowed to. You never thought it was weird how hard they teach you to question the chumash and navi and gemara, yet if you question a fundamental truth you are an apikores?

Oh goody, I wouldn't be killed immediately. Phew. That makes it ok to stone someone to death. And as a side note, is it ok that a women witness is worth half a man's? Because that's sexist. Our great friends the meforshim say that (among other crappy reasons) it's because women are wishy-washy, can easily be influenced, and are very forgetful. Don't you just love a steaming plate of cruelty with a side of sexism? Yummy.

[Angel Androgynous]

Four thousand year old trolls? A Biblical lulzsec? :D

Indeed.

Didn't the Jews believe Jesus was a troll? :rolleyes:

[Bougainvillea]

I understand what you are saying. You just need to be aware of what you said.

Too bad. He's too busy promising himself false and opinionated salvation.

There's no use arguing with people like him. He firm on his belief, and feels all to be inferior and false when it comes to religion. Even though its all pointless because we are a speck in a place called nowhere.

We are nothing. We die. No one has special treatment after death. Religion is just a really complicated way of people expressing how scared they are of what'll happen after they die. There aren't any wrong things you do that changes things for you or your soul. Because after you die. That's it. You're gone. Always will be.

How hard is it to just enjoy life, and appreciate the one you're living, rather than worying about whatever celestial paradise you believe to be waiting for you?

[RoseyCadaver]

[COLOR="White"]"I contend that we are both atheists. I simply believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all other possible gods, you will understand why I didmiss yours."

My friend has that quote on her facebook.Js :D.

Anyways,I see no problem with believing in a God,and I have no real problem with religion.What I do have a problem with is when someone else forces their religion on others.I believe there is a God,but I also believe It most definitely doesn't want someone else forcing their view of It as some sort of hating the hating the gays,unwed,non believers of their god.I also don't like when religion uses the ol' carrot and stick.Why the fuck would an all loving creature punish a soul for eternity for making some bad mistakes that probably won't affect the whole universe or world for that matter.Why would It/He/She hate you for being gay or seeing god as another face?God is love,he/she/it is an energy,a creating energy,he/she/it is not a hating,destructible,or mean energy.He/She/It doesn't hate you,be you theist or atheist,/she/he/it loves you.

[StoppingTime]

My friend has that quote on her facebook.Js :D.

Anyways,I see no problem with believing in a God,and I have no real problem with religion.What I do have a problem with is when someone else forces their religion on others.I believe there is a God,but I also believe It most definitely doesn't want someone else forcing their view of It as some sort of hating the hating the gays,unwed,non believers of their god.I also don't like when religion uses the ol' carrot and stick.Why the fuck would an all loving creature punish a soul for eternity for making some bad mistakes that probably won't affect the whole universe or world for that matter.Why would It/He/She hate you for being gay or seeing god as another face?God is love,he/she/it is an energy,a creating energy,he/she/it is not a hating,destructible,or mean energy.He/She/It doesn't hate you,be you theist or atheist,/she/he/it loves you.

I don't think anyone is trying to be forceful on their religion here (mostly because the majority of people here are atheists). I am not trying to force Judaism on anyone and never will, but we are just arguing our points.


[QUOTE=Cervantes;1383821]Too bad. He's too busy promising himself false and opinionated salvation.

There's no use arguing with people like him. He firm on his belief, and feels all to be inferior and false when it comes to religion. Even though its all pointless because we are a speck in a place called nowhere. [QUOTE]

You are correct, I will never change my belief no matter what anyone says. You may believe its pointless, but one of my favorite quotes I've heard is this:
"I am a speck of dust and God made the world for me."

[Amnesiac]

http://www.uspoliticsonline.com/attachments/humanities-issues/11195d1305736680-circular-reasoning-circular-reasoning-picture-sample.jpg

http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/images/circular_reasoning.gif

For future posters: please stop doing this.

[Genghis Khan]

we are just arguing our points.

I will never change my belief no matter what anyone says.

What's the point bro? Why argue then?

I am not trying to force Judaism on anyone and never will

Well even if you did it'd be pretty useless, you have to be born a Jew to be a Jew, I'm sure you're familiar with that.

[StoppingTime]

What's the point bro? Why argue then?



Well even if you did it'd be pretty useless, you have to be born a Jew to be a Jew, I'm sure you're familiar with that.

You can convert to Judaism, I don't understand why people say you can't.
I can argue points to people, and not change, thats what a debate is, you don't have to agree with what others' are saying.

[Maxxie]

You can convert to Judaism, I don't understand why people say you can't.
I can argue points to people, and not change, thats what a debate is, you don't have to agree with what others' are saying.

No, in a debate you're arguing your point, and you don't have to agree with what others are saying, but you've got to be open to a slim chance of the possibility of the fact that you're COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY WRONG.

Or maybe just a little bit wrong. Sorry. The raging atheist in me came out there for a sec.

[RoseyCadaver]

I don't think anyone is trying to be forceful on their religion here (mostly because the majority of people here are atheists). I am not trying to force Judaism on anyone and never will, but we are just arguing our points.


Didn't say you were,I was making a broad statement on my beliefs :P.


I also don't understand when people tell me you can't be spiritual with out being religious.I think of spiritual as expressing your love through other forms the physical realm(be it called prayer or meditation)I also do good acts.I also think being spiritual is giving you more freedom to do and believe what you want,where religion is controlled beliefs.

[Bougainvillea]

Didn't say you were,I was making a broad statement on my beliefs :P.


I also don't understand when people tell me you can't be spiritual with out being religious.I think of spiritual as expressing your love through other forms the physical realm(be it called prayer or meditation)I also do good acts.I also think being spiritual is giving you more freedom to do and believe what you want,where religion is controlled beliefs.

Well, spirituality is something that is expressed through hundreds of different cultures. Its something that millions, if not billions of people experience. I like it because people can be expressive, and believe themselves to be open to the supernatural realm. Or what they personally believe to be there. I don't know. I like it. Its cool to hear people talk about being a hypersensitive, or see people talk about how it affects their life.

[Genghis Khan]

I can argue points to people, and not change, thats what a debate is

It is ideal to enter a debate with a little more open mind, instead of sitting back like you know it all, you'll just be painting yourself as an arrogant prick then.

you don't have to agree with what others' are saying.

Even if you've been proven wrong? Forget debates with value judgements, I mean keeping people from residing in their own selective reality by logically falsifying their claims in a debate setting. You said, and I quote

You are correct, I will never change my belief no matter what anyone says.

What is the actual point then? Why debate if you're already so fixed on your religion that you wouldn't care if you're completely wrong? This just means you're following Judaism purely because you want to, if you just want to... you're not achieving anything by debating about it. See what I mean? No?

[StoppingTime]

There's no point in trying, mate. ;)

It is ideal to enter a debate with a little more open mind, instead of sitting back like you know it all, you'll just be painting yourself as an arrogant prick then.



Even if you've been proven wrong? Forget debates with value judgements, I mean keeping people from residing in their own selective reality by logically falsifying their claims in a debate setting. You said, and I quote



What is the actual point then? Why debate if you're already so fixed on your religion that you wouldn't care if you're completely wrong? This just means you're following Judaism purely because you want to, if you just want to... you're not achieving anything by debating about it. See what I mean? No?

It seems as if I am not the only one. And I don't think the entire point of this thread is to convince other people to join a different religion, or at least I hope not.

[Iris]

I don't think anyone is trying to be forceful on their religion here (mostly because the majority of people here are atheists)

It's ok if you want to ignore my posts. It just reinforces what I already know about religious people. But that statement just irritated me. If you look at the poll you'll see the majority of people here are religious. The reason there are so many atheists answering is because we actually have something legitimate to say. You've clearly been disproved, especially as a member of the 'big three' (Judaism, Christianity, Islam), who usually have no real argument. It makes sense that you wouldn't even really try.

[RoseyCadaver]

Well, spirituality is something that is expressed through hundreds of different cultures. Its something that millions, if not billions of people experience. I like it because people can be expressive, and believe themselves to be open to the supernatural realm. Or what they personally believe to be there. I don't know. I like it. Its cool to hear people talk about being a hypersensitive, or see people talk about how it affects their life.

Very well put,friend.I don't like it how some people try to put others down saying the way they're spiritual is wrong and isn't right.It's like telling somebody how to live your life.I have no problem with peoples spiritual going about(or religious for that matter)as long as it doesn't affect someone else negatively.That is like abusing power in my view,saying that a God hates for you,but loves them and is on their side.

[Genghis Khan]

It seems as if I am not the only one.

Please point out where I've made the slightest hint that indicates no one can ever change my beliefs.

And I don't think the entire point of this thread is to convince other people to join a different religion, or at least I hope not.

The point of every debate is to go in with an open mind and if you are debating about something that you think is right and it turns out you're not, and you simply go 'I don't care if you're right nothing can change my belief hurr durr' what was the point of debating? If someone proved to me God is real and I sat back with my eyes and ears shut saying 'I don't care, I don't believe he exists' then there wasn't much point in me debating... at all.

[Magus]

image (http://www.uspoliticsonline.com/attachments/humanities-issues/11195d1305736680-circular-reasoning-circular-reasoning-picture-sample.jpg)

image (http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/images/circular_reasoning.gif)

For future posters: please stop doing this.Before this, I really had no idea what circular reasoning meant.

[Amnesiac]

Before this, I really had no idea what circular reasoning meant.

Well, now you know. I see people do it here on VT and all over the Internet all the time.

[egotistic]

all id like to say is that god loves us all but if we dont appreciate him were doing it wrong how would u like it if you owned a pet hamster and it didnt like u wouldnt be nice would it so u should take time for god too

[Amnesiac]

all id like to say is that god loves us all but if we dont appreciate him were doing it wrong how would u like it if you owned a pet hamster and it didnt like u wouldnt be nice would it so u should take time for god too

Except, unlike hamsters and people, God doesn't exist.

[Genghis Khan]

all id like to say is that god loves us all but if we dont appreciate him were doing it wrong how would u like it if you owned a pet hamster and it didnt like u wouldnt be nice would it so u should take time for god too

God, Krishna, Shiva, Bhagwan, Allah, Yahweh, Zoroaster, Joo joo monster at the bottom of the ocean. Oh no, which one must I submit myself to?

[embers]

all id like to say is that god loves us all but if we dont appreciate him were doing it wrong how would u like it if you owned a pet hamster and it didnt like u wouldnt be nice would it so u should take time for god too

With the utmost of respect here: should we really take time for god? When has he really even taken time for us recently?

[Iris]

all id like to say is that god loves us all but if we dont appreciate him were doing it wrong how would u like it if you owned a pet hamster and it didnt like u wouldnt be nice would it so u should take time for god too

I had a guinea pig who hated my guts. I was still 'nice' to him. He lived a very happy life.

[Angel Androgynous]

all id like to say is that god loves us all but if we dont appreciate him were doing it wrong how would u like it if you owned a pet hamster and it didnt like u wouldnt be nice would it so u should take time for god too

A PET HAMSTER DOESN'T LIKE ME? :eek:


OH NoooooOOoooooo! OH THE HORROR! D:


God is a spaghetti monster... prove me wrong. :yeah:

[huginnmuninn]

if god knows everything and he created us all special then if we dont love him or appreciate him then its his own god damn fault and he should know better than to suspect otherwise.

[StoppingTime]

if god knows everything and he created us all special then if we dont love him or appreciate him then its his own god damn fault and he should know better than to suspect otherwise.

God doesn't create us perfectly, and also gives us free will. People are free to choose what they want to believe, whether they made the right choice or not.

[Angel Androgynous]

God doesn't create us perfectly, and also gives us free will. People are free to choose what they want to believe, whether they made the right choice or not.

If he gave us "free will" why does he need the divine plan? If he knows what's gonna happen then we don't have free will. ._.


ALSO if God loves us all equally, why are some people born with no arms? Why are some people starving to death? Why are some people raped and murdered? Why aren't these people using "free will" to change that? Hmmm?

Oh right... they CAN'T....

If God exists, then he is unjust, biased, or you know, just doesn't give a shit.

[Amnesiac]

People are free to choose what they want to believe, whether they made the right choice or not.

Interesting how you worded this. "The right choice." It annoys me how religious people always tout their specific beliefs as "the right choice" and subtly deride everybody else for making "the wrong choice". I mean, what the fuck? I'll base my own personal beliefs on logic and reasoning, thank you very much, and I couldn't give less of a fuck whether or not a bunch of churchgoers think I've made the "wrong" choice. Fact is that monotheistic religion is not based on logic and reasoning, and it never will be. It's pure speculation, and nothing more. The real "right choice" in life is basing your actions on your own judgement, not blindly subscribing to some belief system and accepting everything it tells you.

The only people who are intellectually independent are the ones who have abandoned the manmade philosophical idea of God that society so vehemently clings to.

[egotistic]

Except, unlike hamsters and people, God doesn't exist.

yes he does just read the bible nd u'll see

[judahtics]

yes he does just read the bible nd u'll see

prove to me God exists without using the Bible and then maybe we can have a discussion that's half way educated.

[Genghis Khan]

yes he does just read the bible nd u'll see

Just stop. Seriously.

[egotistic]

Just stop. Seriously.

seriosly how can you tell me to stop talking cuz you know i wont! im just replying to my post nd thanks for the neg rep too i gues if you post your opinion on here and its not what the majorty thinks then your neg repped..... go fuck urself

[judahtics]

seriosly how can you tell me to stop talking cuz you know i wont! im just replying to my post nd thanks for the neg rep too i gues if you post your opinion on here and its not what the majorty thinks then your neg repped..... go fuck urself

yea you get knocked for opinion a lot here, but don't let it get to you. plus, can you even look up who gave you the neg rep? i didn't think you could. if you can't, don't assume it was them.

[Genghis Khan]

seriosly how can you tell me to stop talking cuz you know i wont! im just replying to my post nd thanks for the neg rep too i gues if you post your opinion on here and its not what the majorty thinks then your neg repped..... go fuck urself

I'm guessing you gave me the neg rep with the comment 'fuck u'.

If your opinion is based on an extremely unfounded belief and you choose to bring it here, people will criticize that opinion, whether they do it in a harsh manner or a light one. There's no reason to go off swearing and my guess is, you'll probably be neg repped a lot more because of what you just said. I didn't mean to spark a flame war between me and you with that comment, I've just heard these arguments (also previously described by LithiumAneurysm as circular reasoning) so many times that, quite frankly, I'm sick of it. It's bullshit. It's stupid, and if it's expressed, it's likely to be blown down by me and others with a blowtorch.

P.S. - I did not neg rep you. I never neg rep anyone, even if I don't agree with what they're saying and they neg rep me with a stupid justification.

[embers]

yes he does just read the bible nd u'll see

I think you'll find that if you read HP Lovecraft, it's actually cthulhu that exists, not god.

[egotistic]

'Cthulhu is a fictional character that first appeared in the short story "The Call of Cthulhu", published in the pulp magazine Weird Tales in 1928. The character was created by writer H. P. Lovecraft.'

source; wikipedia

see even wikipedia says its fictional u dont even have basic knowlege of what ur talking about. dont debate if u dont know the facts

[egotistic]

I'm guessing you gave me the neg rep with the comment 'fuck u'.

If your opinion is based on an extremely unfounded belief and you choose to bring it here, people will criticize that opinion, whether they do it in a harsh manner or a light one. There's no reason to go off swearing and my guess is, you'll probably be neg repped a lot more because of what you just said. I didn't mean to spark a flame war between me and you with that comment, I've just heard these arguments (also previously described by LithiumAneurysm as circular reasoning) so many times that, quite frankly, I'm sick of it. It's bullshit. It's stupid, and if it's expressed, it's likely to be blown down by me and others with a blowtorch.

P.S. - I did not neg rep you. I never neg rep anyone, even if I don't agree with what they're saying and they neg rep me with a stupid justification.

if u keep calling my opinions and thoughts stupid we have nothing to discuss cuz ur already so bias

[Magus]

yes he does just read the bible nd u'll see
I read the bible(boring material) and I saw nothing.

[Genghis Khan]

'Cthulhu is a fictional character that first appeared in the short story "The Call of Cthulhu", published in the pulp magazine Weird Tales in 1928. The character was created by writer H. P. Lovecraft.'

source; wikipedia

see even wikipedia says its fictional u dont even have basic knowlege of what ur talking about. dont debate if u dont know the facts

if u keep calling my opinions and thoughts stupid we have nothing to discuss cuz ur already so bias

http://www.tassidental.com/assets/images/Pull_Hair_out.jpg

[egotistic]

I read the bible(boring material) and I saw nothing.

then read it carefully u idiot

[Magus]

then read it carefully u idiot
I, the idiot, has read it carefully, thoroughly, and exhaustively. I still see no evidence for a Deity or God.

[egotistic]

well then i dont know which book ur reading, the answers are all there just look at the shape of the earth how do u explain the beuty of nature and everythng around you its so perfect and in the book it state god says 'i am that i am', what more doyou need?

[egotistic]

how did the first seed get here how did we get here what keeps the sky from falling..... cant u just acept that the bible is only here to answer our questions and it has if u just read it proply

[Jess]

and the Bible is full of sexist things, it accepts rape, murder, and slavery.

[StoppingTime]

If he gave us "free will" why does he need the divine plan? If he knows what's gonna happen then we don't have free will. ._.

I have answered this question here before. He knows whats going to happen based on our actions. He does not interfere with it, and doesn't do anything with that information.

ALSO if God loves us all equally, why are some people born with no arms? Why are some people starving to death? Why are some people raped and murdered? Why aren't these people using "free will" to change that? Hmmm?

Oh right... they CAN'T....

What do you mean by this? We aren't puppets being controlled by God. He does love us all equally, and he decided not to make the world perfect.


Interesting how you worded this. "The right choice." It annoys me how religious people always tout their specific beliefs as "the right choice" and subtly deride everybody else for making "the wrong choice". I mean, what the fuck? I'll base my own personal beliefs on logic and reasoning, thank you very much, and I couldn't give less of a fuck whether or not a bunch of churchgoers think I've made the "wrong" choice. Fact is that monotheistic religion is not based on logic and reasoning, and it never will be. It's pure speculation, and nothing more. The real "right choice" in life is basing your actions on your own judgement, not blindly subscribing to some belief system and accepting everything it tells you.

The only people who are intellectually independent are the ones who have abandoned the manmade philosophical idea of God that society so vehemently clings to.

I don't care what you choose. I don't care if you think God is a spaghetti monster... I don't. You can believe in what you want because of free will, whether is is right to some people or not.



and the Bible is full of sexist things, it accepts rape, murder, and slavery.

I have answered this here as well. You cannot read the bible with the literal translation because it does not mean it literally as it is translated.

[deadpie]

how did the first seed get here how did we get here what keeps the sky from falling..... cant u just acept that the bible is only here to answer our questions and it has if u just read it proply

The sky falling? What are you even saying? Well, lets get a little SCIENTIFIC if I may. Those white puffy balls in the sky are called clouds. Clouds cannot fall because blah (http://lamp.tu-graz.ac.at/~hadley/whydontcloudsfall.html). Click the link, learn some new stuff and have fun.

Well, depends on which "First seed" you're speaking of. This world has been around for 4.54 billion years, so you can imagine how many times this world has been fucked by disastrous events and pulls its way back. Now a good idea is to - yup, you guessed it - read more exciting shit! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_history_of_plants)

Bible is true because it says so is not enough proof. It's the dumbest point anyone could ever make.

Can someone go find some forty year old christian apologetic's now? This is getting really boring.

[Jess]

how did the first seed get here how did we get here what keeps the sky from falling..... cant u just acept that the bible is only here to answer our questions and it has if u just read it proply

what keeps the sky from falling???????? are you freaking kidding me? I've never read anything so stupid

[ForrestBri]

how did the first seed get here how did we get here what keeps the sky from falling..... cant u just acept that the bible is only here to answer our questions and it has if u just read it proplyWoah! How ignorant is that! What keeps the sky from falling? Well, science can answer that. If you think there is such a thing as a sheet around the earth called the sky then you must not be educated on the subject. The Bible states that the earth is flat and it rests on four pillars. Eratosthenes, an ancient Greek, was aware that the Earth was spherical and that was hundreds of years before the Bible was written. How can you not see through the lies of these ancient myths?

[Iris]

I have answered this here as well. You cannot read the bible with the literal translation because it does not mean it literally as it is translated.

No you haven't, because you keep ignoring my posts which refute your argument.

Wow this is frustrating.

[StoppingTime]

No you haven't, because you keep ignoring my posts which refute your argument.

Wow this is frustrating.

I read your posts, which is a translation of the Torah.

Thats it.

[egotistic]

The sky falling? What are you even saying? Well, lets get a little SCIENTIFIC if I may. Those white puffy balls in the sky are called clouds. Clouds cannot fall because blah (http://lamp.tu-graz.ac.at/~hadley/whydontcloudsfall.html). Click the link, learn some new stuff and have fun.

Well, depends on which "First seed" you're speaking of. This world has been around for 4.54 billion years, so you can imagine how many times this world has been fucked by disastrous events and pulls its way back. Now a good idea is to - yup, you guessed it - read more exciting shit! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_history_of_plants)

Bible is true because it says so is not enough proof. It's the dumbest point anyone could ever make.

Can someone go find some forty year old christian apologetic's now? This is getting really boring.

stop trying to be smart no one likes you :) and ok if you dont beleive god exists how did we get here

[Angel Androgynous]

What do you mean by this? We aren't puppets being controlled by God. He does love us all equally, and he decided not to make the world perfect.




I don't care what you choose. I don't care if you think God is a spaghetti monster... I don't. You can believe in what you want because of free will, whether is is right to some people or not.



I have answered this here as well. You cannot read the bible with the literal translation because it does not mean it literally as it is translated.
We aren't puppets controlled by God and have free will yet as I stated before, there are people born with horrible disabilities, what have they done to deserve this?

And I don't think god is a spaghetti monster simply because I don't believe in him. I was making a point where just because you can't disprove it does not mean it isn't so. Sooo just because I can't "disprove" God does not mean he exists and just because you can't disprove that God is a spaghetti monster does not mean it isn't. Now that I have confused you, go do something interesting. Like learn science.

stop trying to be smart no one likes you :) and ok if you dont beleive god exists how did we get here

It's funny because he has more rep power than you... and is respected about a million more times than you. xD OH and he's smarter than you. :D

How did we get here?
When mommies and daddies love each other......

Hurp.



Ohh you might mean how the human race got here...


thousands of years of evolution and some MOAR SCIENCE stuff for you to look into. :D

[StoppingTime]

We aren't puppets controlled by God and have free will yet as I stated before, there are people born with horrible disabilities, what have they done to deserve this?

And I don't think god is a spaghetti monster simply because I don't believe in him. I was making a point where just because you can't disprove it does not mean it isn't so. Sooo just because I can't "disprove" God does not mean he exists and just because you can't disprove that God is a spaghetti monster does not mean it isn't. Now that I have confused you, go do something interesting. Like learn science.

Yes sometimes people are born with disabilities, this is because God doesn't control us like that, or in any way like you think. I know you may not see God as a spaghetti monster, I was just quoting what you said earlier. Also, does God have to be proved by science for you to believe in him? Why?

[Amnesiac]

yes he does just read the bible nd u'll see

Did you not see my post on circular reasoning?

well then i dont know which book ur reading, the answers are all there just look at the shape of the earth how do u explain the beuty of nature and everythng around you its so perfect

It's far from perfect. The only reason it appears "beautiful" and "perfect" is because society has pushed that worldview for thousands of years. You were taught from birth to view the world as "beautiful" and "perfect". It isn't actually that way.

and in the book it state god says 'i am that i am', what more doyou need?

GEE, I DON'T KNOW, ACTUAL EVIDENCE?

how did the first seed get here

That's for science to find out. Religion just makes up excuses to answer ridiculously complex questions like that one.

how did we get here what keeps the sky from falling.....

Again, that's for science to find out. Admit it, it's impossible to actually know how we got here. Why the fuck is that such a big deal anyway, knowing "how we got here"? I mean, how is that relevant to our current and future problems in any way? Why is that a question that has to be answered with a bunch of bullshit religious creationism that was pulled out of someone's ass? It takes time to answer these questions, and the only way to truly know our origins is to let science and knowledge slowly put the puzzle together. Blindly turning to ridiculous religious dogma to answer the most difficult questions of all time is by far the most stupid and illogical thing a person can do.

cant u just acept that the bible is only here to answer our questions and it has if u just read it proply

I call bullshit.

[Genghis Khan]

Justin, don't bother with him, we've all met thick vindictive, homophobic, bigoted zealots that just won't look to reasoning.

Oh and...

how did the first seed get here how did we get here what keeps the sky from falling

The sky is part of the earth's atmosphere and is made of several gases; 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, Argon gas, H2o and several other gases. Gas doesn't need a god damn pillar. Fuck.

the bible is only here to answer our questions and it has if u just read it proply

Just what does the Bible say about deep throating a mule?

[Amnesiac]

Justin, don't bother with him, we've all met thick vindictive, homophobic, bigoted zealots that just won't look to reasoning.

Goddammit, I know there's no point. Still, I just can't comprehend how people think this way. It's so contradictory; there's no logic to it at all. I guess I'll never understand it, really. All I can do is watch them, like they're a bunch of animals in a zoo, and wonder what it's like to live an unfortunate life like theirs.

[Angel Androgynous]

There are just some people who don't know the fucking difference between believing and knowing.

[Iris]

I read your posts, which is a translation of the Torah.

It's the translation that is generally agreed on by the commentators, by the way. But that's only a small part of my point. I'm questioning your belief that the commentators have the right to say what is and what isn't literal. How can you and the commentators have the audacity to decide what is and isn't literal from books orated from god itself? Hm?

[bigdaddy101]

Maybe try to make this a tad more friendly for fuck's sake don't let religion tear you guys apart maybe if you guys are mature enough you can have a friendly conversation. Believe what you want and don't try to change people!

[Angel Androgynous]

Yes sometimes people are born with disabilities, this is because God doesn't control us like that, or in any way like you think. I know you may not see God as a spaghetti monster, I was just quoting what you said earlier. Also, does God have to be proved by science for you to believe in him? Why?

Why would I follow blind faith with no proof but a 3000 year old novel of horrible and some reasonable morals that was written by some dudes who had nothing better to do with their life so they decided to try and explain how everything happened?

[embers]

yes he does just read the bible nd u'll see

'Cthulhu is a fictional character that first appeared in the short story "The Call of Cthulhu", published in the pulp magazine Weird Tales in 1928. The character was created by writer H. P. Lovecraft.'

source; wikipedia

see even wikipedia says its fictional u dont even have basic knowlege of what ur talking about. dont debate if u dont know the facts

if u keep calling my opinions and thoughts stupid we have nothing to discuss cuz ur already so bias

then read it carefully u idiot

well then i dont know which book ur reading, the answers are all there just look at the shape of the earth how do u explain the beuty of nature and everythng around you its so perfect and in the book it state god says 'i am that i am', what more doyou need?

how did the first seed get here how did we get here what keeps the sky from falling..... cant u just acept that the bible is only here to answer our questions and it has if u just read it proply

stop trying to be smart no one likes you :) and ok if you dont beleive god exists how did we get here

Wow, man. I actually really love you in a way. You know why? You're like a living, breathing ChristWire (http://christwire.org/), which is perhaps one of the best troll/satire sites out there. Except the only thing is, there is doubt in my mind that you actually are trolling, and you're just being what the people at ChristWire subtly ridicule all along.

You're kind of like the Christian version of Zakir Naik, except you don't make bullshit sound intellectual. For a person of that standard, I really fucking admire you for coming out here and using the circular reasoning presented only a few posts before your first in this thread. Props to you.

Although, for the cthulhu analogy, the message I was trying to get across was that your god and cthulhu have the same level of credibility. Neither have proofs of their existence except for books that were written a while ago (granted, the bible much before Lovecraft) and their own cults (the latter being Lovecraft fans and debating atheists).

But you know, despite what I say here, you'll probably skim through this post or just give it no meaning. This admiration for you is kind of semi-sarcastic, and I'm mainly showing it because you 1. made my day, and 2. are one of the strongest contenders for another deluded atheistexperience caller. You're the primary example of what I don't like to see in religious people, and granted, I don't see it a lot. But when I do, it just undermines the respect I have for religious people as a whole, even though you're not the face of them.

It's not that I don't like reading or listening to people like you because of what you say, but because I feel sorry for your mindset. I can laugh about it here, just reading through the countless number of 'hes in the bible lol fuck evolution he made us in his image' fairytale pansy makeyourselffeelbetter bullshit, but in all honesty, the grim reality is that people like you actually exist. On the other end of the internet, there's you, sitting down and reading this post which you think is a pointless waste of time (which I must admit it partly is) and regardless of anything anybody's said, within or without VT, you will cling to your belief. You'll probably never look deep enough into the scientific studies and such that are the sole reason for the world's progression - you'll probably dismiss them as bullshit you don't need to know nor care about. Instead, there's just you, your god, and your afterlife, and that's all that matters. It doesn't enrage me to think of it exactly, but it irritates me that this is exactly the case for so many people.

From the hubble ultra deep field image (yes, i read the cracked article), I can estimate that, if you times the approximate ten thousand visible galaxies in the picture by 13 million (as the picture is one thirteen millionth of the night sky), I can safely guess that there are about 130,000,000,000 galaxies in the obersvable universe. The observable universe could possibly be tiny in comparison to the real universe. Just think of it - people like you actually believe that these billions and billions of galaxies were created just so the speck of dust you are's faith would wobble slightly in a test of your allegiance to a creator. It irks me.

But, props to you anyway. After all, this is a meaningless rant and you did masturbate so much that you couldn't cum anymore.

[StoppingTime]

It's the translation that is generally agreed on by the commentators, by the way. But that's only a small part of my point. I'm questioning your belief that the commentators have the right to say what is and what isn't literal. How can you and the commentators have the audacity to decide what is and isn't literal from books orated from god itself? Hm?

Its still a translation, whether they agree on it or not. And the reason they have the right is because they are the few that are on such a high level that they can interpret the Torah like it used to be known.

Why would I follow blind faith with no proof but a 3000 year old novel of horrible and some reasonable morals that was written by some dudes who had nothing better to do with their life so they decided to try and explain how everything happened?

Thats what Judaism is, a blind faith. I don't need physical proof nowadays like you would think to realize that God exists.

[Angel Androgynous]

Its still a translation, whether they agree on it or not. And the reason they have the right is because they are the few that are on such a high level that they can interpret the Torah like it used to be known.



Thats what Judaism is, a blind faith. I don't need physical proof nowadays like you would think to realize that God exists.

And blind faith is exactly what I DON'T want to do. We only live once, and I, unlike a lot of religious people, am not going to live with my hands clasped in prayer. I am going to live life without a 3000 year old book telling me what to do, and enjoy it.

[StoppingTime]

And blind faith is exactly what I DON'T want to do. We only live once, and I, unlike a lot of religious people, am not going to live with my hands clasped in prayer. I am going to live life without a 3000 year old book telling me what to do and enjoy it.

Thats fine with me, but the whole point is to Judaism of me is that I know there is a God and he watches over us.

[Iris]

Its still a translation, whether they agree on it or not. And the reason they have the right is because they are the few that are on such a high level that they can interpret the Torah like it used to be known.


You are unbelievable. You just completely ignore everything I say, don't you? I took the time out to write this whole lecture-

I'll repeat: Zimri had sex with her. I've heard all the reasoning behind it by the meforshim. Tell me, which one will you pick to justify this one? You relaying the story doesn't prove anything. The leader of a shevet, one of the 'highest level' people around at that time had sex with a random woman. Someone on such a high level shouldn't be making a mistake like that. Where I live NO ONE would EVER do something like that. And we're at the era of 'Ikvisa Dimishicha', supposedly the lowest level before the messiah. I'd say they're equal, if not on a higher level. Oh and thanks for also pointing out another thing they did wrong. they went around worshiping the Ba'al Zevuv, practically right after they got the Torah and heard God's voice. If any Jew now went through that, they wouldn't have gone off having sex with random women and serving idols. Go on, try and justify that.

How do you know the meforshim aren't making stuff up? Hm? And it definitely doesn't help that they constantly contradict each other, but "they're all right," which makes it even more ridiculous. If one says the Jews were here, and the other says the Jews were there, one of them is wrong. Who are you, or they, to decide pieces of the Torah are literal and some aren't? Maybe the whole Torah was just a lesson to teach us how crazy people will go to feel secure about themselves and therefore create huge complex sets of laws that they call their religion. How do you know? How do the meforshim? Who says they actually have ruach hakodesh?? You need to learn to question things, things that you're not allowed to. You never thought it was weird how hard they teach you to question the chumash and navi and gemara, yet if you question a fundamental truth you are an apikores?

about how you're argument that we're on a lower level is ridiculous. But you just ignored every word...Why do I even bother....

[StoppingTime]

You are unbelievable. You just completely ignore everything I say, don't you? I took the time out to write this whole lecture-



about how you're argument that we're on a lower level is ridiculous. But you just ignored every word...Why do I even bother....

You are correct that the Meforshim do not always agree, and obvious, sometimes they aren't always right. But we are on a lower level because of what goes on in the world daily.

[Maxxie]

Thats fine with me, but the whole point is to Judaism of me is that I know there is a God and he watches over us.

And the whole point of a bloody debate is not to use immutable opinions directed at establishing the truth of someone's faith without any evidence save for a archaic set of scriptures and moral codes based around some 8000 year old Persian pothead that eventually evolved out of Ur and into the mythical Promised Land of Canaan, where Abraham began his philosophical discourse on the existence of a God to explain our existence as tiny, insignificant water sacks of mostly carban, which then began to evolve into Christianity when some guy who was really fucking good at acting came around and claimed that he was the son of good and performed some cheap magic tricks (healing of a schitzophrenic by comfort alone, transformation of water into wine (didn't the Egyptian priests turn water into BLOOD?)), which then began the basis for the religious beliefs of nearly 2 billion people, not to mention Islam and Baha'i that sprouted off out of that. The supreme arrogance of it all.

--------Circular------
because---------reasoning
--------works------

Yes, that was a rant. No, that's not completely historically accurate.

[StoppingTime]

And the whole point of a bloody debate is not to use immutable opinions directed at establishing the truth of someone's faith without any evidence save for a archaic set of scriptures and moral codes based around some 8000 year old Persian pothead that eventually evolved out of Ur and into the mythical Promised Land of Canaan, where Abraham began his philosophical discourse on the existence of a God to explain our existence as tiny, insignificant water sacks of mostly carban, which then began to evolve into Christianity when some guy who was really fucking good at acting came around and claimed that he was the son of good and performed some cheap magic tricks (healing of a schitzophrenic by comfort alone, transformation of water into wine (didn't the Egyptian priests turn water into BLOOD?)), which then began the basis for the religious beliefs of nearly 2 billion people, not to mention Islam and Baha'i that sprouted off out of that. The supreme arrogance of it all.

--------Circular------
because---------reasoning
--------works------

Yes, that was a rant. No, that's not completely historically accurate.

Wow. That was creative. If you could explain that in English, I would like to hear it again.

[Iris]

You are correct that the Meforshim do not always agree, and obvious, sometimes they aren't always right. But we are on a lower level because of what goes on in the world daily.

Okay then, enlighten me. Tell me something that happens daily today that is worse than back then, that puts us on a lower level.

[Maxxie]

Wow. That was creative. If you could explain that in English, I would like to hear it again.

It was in English. Or would you like me to translate for you, seeing as how you think of yourself as on a lower level?

[StoppingTime]

And the whole point of a bloody debate is not to use immutable opinions directed at establishing the truth of someone's faith without any evidence save for a archaic set of scriptures and moral codes based around some 8000 year old Persian pothead that eventually evolved out of Ur and into the mythical Promised Land of Canaan, where Abraham began his philosophical discourse on the existence of a God to explain our existence as tiny, insignificant water sacks of mostly carban, which then began to evolve into Christianity when some guy who was really fucking good at acting came around and claimed that he was the son of good and performed some cheap magic tricks (healing of a schitzophrenic by comfort alone, transformation of water into wine (didn't the Egyptian priests turn water into BLOOD?)), which then began the basis for the religious beliefs of nearly 2 billion people, not to mention Islam and Baha'i that sprouted off out of that. The supreme arrogance of it all.

--------Circular------
because---------reasoning
--------works------

Yes, that was a rant. No, that's not completely historically accurate.

I get it now. Anyway, I can't really comment on this much because it has to do with Jesus (don't really know much about Christianity), and yes Jesus was a good actor. But it didn't turn into Christianity immediately.

[Maxxie]

I get it now. Anyway, I can't really comment on this much because it has to do with Jesus (don't really know much about Christianity), and yes Jesus was a good actor. But it didn't turn into Christianity immediately.

No, you can't comment on it because you don't the history of the development of your faith. Simply because I mention a guy in a paragraph doesn't mean the ENTIRE PARAGRAPH is about him, hell, I mention him in passing almost.

[Iris]

No, you can't comment on it because you don't the history of the development of your faith. Simply because I mention a guy in a paragraph doesn't mean the ENTIRE PARAGRAPH is about him, hell, I mention him in passing almost.

Picking whatever he wants to answer to (even though those 'answers' are ridiculous) and completely ignoring all the rest is becoming his signature move.

[StoppingTime]

No, you can't comment on it because you don't the history of the development of your faith. Simply because I mention a guy in a paragraph doesn't mean the ENTIRE PARAGRAPH is about him, hell, I mention him in passing almost.

Yes I do know it wasn't all about him, but that was what the second half was basically about. And there was (and is) Judaism for a much longer time than there was Christianity.

[Maxxie]

Yes I do know it wasn't all about him, but that was what the second half was basically about. And there was (and is) Judaism for a much longer time than there was Christianity.

*Gasp*

Animism's been around since the dawn of Homo Sapien Sapiens.

[Angel Androgynous]

What does Judaism being around for longer than Christianity have to do with this debate? .__.

Hinduism is older than Judaism and Animism is even older! (As Maxxie has mentioned) Oh and Paganism.

[Maxxie]

What does Judaism being around for longer than Christianity have to do with this debate? .__.

Hinduism is older than Judaism and Animism is even older! (As Maxxie has mentioned) Oh and Paganism.

Paganism developed out of Animism. :)

[Angel Androgynous]

Paganism developed out of Animism. :)

Yeah but might as well mention it. :P

[Perseus]

Yes I do know it wasn't all about him, but that was what the second half was basically about. And there was (and is) Judaism for a much longer time than there was Christianity.

You should probably read about Zoroastrianism (http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/mine/jud_zor.htm), since y'know, your religion ripped off theirs.

[Maxxie]

Yeah but might as well mention it. :P

Haha, sorry. Life's got me in a bitchy mood today...

[Caramel Dewdrop]

I am a laveyan satanist.

[Maxxie]

Satanism? Good lord.

Why does one need a religion to adhere to? LeVayan Satanism is basically atheism, with a bit of nihilistic existentialism, mixed into a big cauldron with hedonism and labeled "Controversy".

[Angel Androgynous]

Satanism? Good lord.

Why does one need a religion to adhere to? LeVayan Satanism is basically atheism, with a bit of nihilistic existentialism, mixed into a big cauldron with hedonism and labeled "Controversy".

Satanists do not believe in the supernatural, in neither God nor the Devil. To the Satanist, he is his own God. Satan is a symbol of Man living as his prideful, carnal nature dictates. The reality behind Satan is simply the dark evolutionary force of entropy that permeates all of nature and provides the drive for survival and propagation inherent in all living things. Satan is not a conscious entity to be worshipped, rather a reservoir of power inside each human to be tapped at will. Thus any concept of sacrifice is rejected as a Christian aberration—in Satanism there’s no deity to which one can sacrifice

[-]I was a LeVayan Satanist for a little bit[/-] ... mostly I would just look for Enochian chants and incenses on the school computer and which Gaelic demons are more convenient.... and then I went like: Yeah screw it. Agnostic Atheism. x)

[Maxxie]

Atheism for the win! :D

[judahtics]

Atheism for the win! :D

how about universalism where everyone is viewed as equal and respected? js. lol

[Maxxie]

Yes, there's universalism, but the fact that "Everyone is equal" is also embodied in most people's moral and philosophical codes in the first place. Not saying that's the main point of universalism.

Actually, universalism is the adknowledgement of a higher power (theism) without reprobation. That is, that all faiths can lead to the same path in "God's" eyes, even atheism, and there is no condemnation for believing in one god or gods in particular, only for leading an unjust and amoral life. Which, you know, is basically the doctrine of most "good" atheists (the ones that live by morality), and, if true, basically points to the fact that faith doesn't matter at all, and that your actions and thoughts dictate your worth in "God's" eyes.

[judahtics]

you know, i'm not real familiar with atheism, only somewhat, i've read about how it's not possible, and it makes sense, but also, the argument doesn't really encompass true atheism belief i think? anyway, maybe you can hook me up with how/what atheism is about so i am more educated on this?

[Maxxie]

Atheism is not a religion. It's the lack of one. (A-), meaning not or without, and (the-), meaning god, and -ism, meaning belief. So the belief of being without god, literally.

Atheism is not a code, nor is it a set of morals. Each person has their own philosophy, their own morals and whatnot. Atheism is merely the belief that no higher power exists.

You cannot take one atheists beliefs and apply them to the entire crowd, or even another atheist. They could be radically different.

I'm not to well versed in how to explain all this, though, but I'm basically saying that Atheism is not a belief system, not all atheists have the same beliefs and morals, and atheism is merely a disbelief in God.

Other than that, you'll have to take it up with each individual person to see what they believe in. I'll be glad to share my philosophy here, if you want it.

EDIT: I said "good" atheists. What I meant was someone that has morals and ethics and is a a generally good person. Even though the concepts of good and evil are subjective, we all have a good sense of what a "good" person is.

[judahtics]

theo means god i thought?

like theology - a study of God.

[Maxxie]

Theo-, The-, I'm not too good in Latin/Greek stems. That's what I put, though, isn't it?

Exactly, theology is the study of god.

Ever heard of.. Asexual? A meaning not? So Asexual means not sexual? It's like that with theism and atheism.

Theism is the belief in a higher power, or God if you will. Atheism is the disbelief.

[judahtics]

Theo-, The-, I'm not too good in Latin/Greek stems. That's what I put, though, isn't it?

then how can an atheist believe in one or Gods? if atheism believes in a lack of God or God's? btw, i'm not trying to argue, just learn. i believe in respecting others religion or beliefs and understanding them.

[Maxxie]

Different words have different meanings... Theology is the study of a higher power, ergo, Hindu theologists, Christian theologists, etcetera.

And where did you get "disbelief in religion". Although religion is basically a corollary to God, I never said a disbelief in religion.

If you mean a scepticism that any one religion has it right, and that you cannot prove or disprove the existence of a God, then you're talking about agnosticism.

A- meaning not.
Gno- meaning to know
-ism meaning belief or doctrine.

With it's connotation, agnosticism means the belief that we cannot know for certain there's a higher power or not.

[judahtics]

i realized i misread and corrected my post. sorry about that.

and that one i knew lol

[Maxxie]

Just making sure, haha :)

Anywho... Any other questions about atheism? I'd love to clear up some misconceptions.

[judahtics]

don't think so.

[Maxxie]

Well, then... Nice talking to you. I'll be here all week. Lol...

[embers]

Atheism is merely the belief that no higher power exists.

That's only strong atheism, which itself is a somewhat faith-based position ('I believe firmly there is no God or higher power'). The more common atheism is a rejection of religious beliefs because they haven't met their burden of proof ('I won't believe in your god / a god until it is proven to exist').

[Angel Androgynous]

That's only strong atheism, which itself is a somewhat faith-based position ('I believe firmly there is no God or higher power'). The more common atheism is a rejection of religious beliefs because they haven't met their burden of proof ('I won't believe in your god / a god until it is proven to exist').

Is that not Agnostic Atheism? c: Well that's what I am... an Agnostic Atheist. x)

[embers]

Is that not Agnostic Atheism? c: Well that's what I am... an Agnostic Atheist. x)

It can be, but agnosticism is usually the position that you can't know whether god exists or not. So I suppose agnostic atheism and general atheism are similar in some ways. While atheism is the rejection of claims that haven't met their burden of proof, agnostic atheism is, I think, the position that you don't have a belief in any deity because you don't / can't know whether one exists or not.

[Magus]

Is that not Agnostic Atheism? c: Well that's what I am... an Agnostic Atheist. x)

That's, I think someone has pointed that before, it's called counter-atheism.

Pay clear attention to this:

If you believe that there is no God, is different from, you disbelieve that there is a God.

Plus, Agnosticism says that you cannot understand, or will know that there is such thing as God or any other supernatural deity.(am I correct)

So, Agnostics are either Atheist, or Theist. There is no in between.

Of course, there are the Skeptics, who are not sure if there is one and are doubtful in their existence. This sounds like weak atheism, yes. Also they cross with apatheism, too.

And there is those Naturalist(me!), who do not believe in anything supernatural like sapient Gods. Yeah, some also cross it with Pantheism: the nature as god, but not a deity or an article of worship. But most are atheist.

[Angel Androgynous]

Agnostic atheism, also called atheistic agnosticism, is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticism. Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know with certainty whether any deity exists.The agnostic atheist may be contrasted with the agnostic theist, who does believe that one or more deities exist but does not claim to have absolute knowledge of such.
Yeah I'm not in between, I'm Agnostic Atheist. c:

[Genghis Khan]

Yeah, some also cross it with Pantheism: the nature as god, but not a deity or an article of worship. But most are atheist.

I'd still refrain from calling the nature of the 'universe' God, but I guess I could call myself a Pantheist.

[terbear]

As of right now I'm Catholic, but I'll most likely convert if they don't accept gay people when I'm older.

[Iris]

As of right now I'm Catholic, but I'll most likely convert if they don't accept gay people when I'm older.

1. I strongly doubt that they will all suddenly accept gay people within a decade.

2. Convert to which religion? Because most do not accept homosexuality.

3. How can you say you believe in a religion but be so ready to just throw it aside? Do you really believe in it then?

[StoppingTime]

1. I strongly doubt that they will all suddenly accept gay people within a decade.

2. Convert to which religion? Because most do not accept homosexuality.

3. How can you say you believe in a religion but be so ready to just throw it aside? Do you really believe in it then?

On this rare occasion, I do have to agree with Lilys *gasp*.
You shouldn't just convert to a religion as if you picked it out of a hat.
And yes, if you really are a practicing Catholic, how can you be so rest to get rid of it and find something else?

[Maxxie]

I see the two of your are of the consensus that throwing out your religion in favor of a new so readily is kind of quirky. I throw my lot in with y'all. However, do the actions of man justify the religion? If it is the Word of God (the bible and all), and the Pope is the direct conduit to God (what is it now, the Proctor? I'm not sure of Catholic terminology), what is Man to interpret that? What is Man to give himself a higher power simply because of his faith? Does that not go against everything the Bible preaches, or hell, even everything that most monotheistic religion goes by?

Why does Man have the power to pass on the authority of God to Man and to himself?

EDIT: Vicar of Christ is the name of the pope, not Proctor... lol.

[josh93]

i am chriastian.

[Valkyrie]

Umm... Im sorry to say i did not read thro the whole 119 pages on this thread tho I do have a long opinion about this crap.
I'm quite amazed at how many christians teens there still is, and btw the tags are clearly made by a christian. I myself do believe there is a spirital existence beyond us but I find it extremely annoying to see different religions, they are all basically the same crap. There is always a god and you always have to worship him no matter what (stupid). I also find it annoying that some children are forced to be the religion their parents are (personal expierence).
Now whats my religion.... hmmm.... None of those above at all but i would probally lean to Wicca and Budhism. Lol i just had a Idea, I'm going to create my own religion :P
It will be Vainism... has a good sound to it dosnt it?

EDIT: Just read a few previous posts and i think Universalism is intersting. Also cant wait to have a deep conversation about this with Maxxie.

[StoppingTime]

Umm... Im sorry to say i did not read thro the whole 119 pages on this thread tho I do have a long opinion about this crap.
I'm quite amazed at how many christians teens there still is, and btw the tags are clearly made by a christian. I myself do believe there is a spirital existence beyond us but I find it extremely annoying to see different religions, they are all basically the same crap. There is always a god and you always have to worship him no matter what (stupid). I also find it annoying that some children are forced to be the religion their parents are (personal expierence).
Now whats my religion.... hmmm.... None of those above at all but i would probally lean to Wicca and Budhism. Lol i just had a Idea, I'm going to create my own religion :P
It will be Vainism... has a good sound to it dosnt it?

EDIT: Just read a few previous posts and i think Universalism is intersting. Also cant wait to have a deep conversation about this with Maxxie.


All religions are in no way saying the same thing. They may all stress of a higher being(s), but they may not all be referring to the same one. (I'm Jewish BTW). Anyway, even Maxxxie would say they aren't all the same... right? lol.

And you don't have to worship anything if that is your preference, but in some religions, this can mean different things. For example, in Judaism, if you find out you are Jewish at 65, and never knew before, you are not held accountable for your actions. However, if you are brought up Jewish, and know about the faith, then it certain times, you could be accountable on going against God. I am not sure on the specifics of other religions, but just giving an example.

[Maxxie]

Am I being held as the Religion-discussion thread guru here? A slight bit of an uncomfortable position.

And, Yanks, you're right. All religions are not the same. Sure, most have the same basic moral codes, but each religion has it's own body of beliefs, and it's own definition of life, afterlife, et cetera. All religions are not the same, because most every one was founded to create a heritage, a way of creating the "Divine Mandate", a heavenly justification for existence. The Assyrians did it, the Persians did it, the Greeks, Romans, Celts, Mesoamericans, Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Indochinese, Indians.

Now, I'm not saying religion is bad. Belief in and of itself is not a bad thing. Your belief in the miraculous power of sunflower seed shells isn't harming me, and, while rediculous, seems not to harm anyone else (not disparaging anyone, merely giving an analogy). However, when that belief becomes organized, human malice sets in - greed, power, control. There's a quote, I'm not sure exactly how it goes, but it says something along the lines of "The people think of religion as their beliefs, the wise as ignorance, and the rulers as useful". That's basically a summation of organized religion. I find belief not to be inherently bad, but when that belief is forced on others it becomes a whole different thing.

I'm basically a weak atheist - I'm not saying that there is NO god, because that relies on faith upon evidence that isn't there, but I'm saying that I disbelieve in a God or Gods. Universalism is interesting, I'll give you that, but this whole "piece of the puzzle" crap is that: crap. There MIGHT be an afterlife, there MIGHT be a God or Gods or Cthulhu and whatnot, but even if there is I'm not wasting my evidence supported ONE life on pining for that future.

[Iris]

There's a quote, I'm not sure exactly how it goes, but it says something along the lines of "The people think of religion as their beliefs, the wise as ignorance, and the rulers as useful".

It's:

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.

Side point: Religion is the same in terms of the questions it 'answers' and the fears it quells. "What's the point of life," "what happens after you die," "why do bad things happen to good people," "why do things happen at all"...All the things humanity fears or doesn't understand came together to create deities and religions.

Now the more you do for your religion, the more you cement in your mind that it's real. So there will always be people who force their beliefs on others. As long as there are insecure people, there will be religious people. If you think about it, it doesn't make sense for religious people to try and convert non-religious people, because a basic tenet in most major religions is that if you knew nothing about the religion, you will not be punished for not believing in it. If religious people really wanted to 'save' us poor, misguided Atheists, they'd never ever speak of religion.

Except that they're not doing this for us, but for themselves.

[Valkyrie]

Ummm.... It's my turn !!! :P
I'm happy I got some people talking here, but I did expect a comment on my new religion lol
Anyways, People at school (very christian school) call me a atheist or just a weird person which I am. I do not belive In a god tho i dont mind how some people pratice their religion. Seriously, (I think this is a quote too) there is no such thing as Right/good and Wrong/Bad, it's just a popular opinion that the human morality made up. So if there is no right and wrong how came we are "suppost" to get put in heaven or hell by the good and bad things we done. This I dea just wipes out so many religions lol
Religion is a big thing in history, there was always the religion class which decided most things or for example the years, its determined by christs birth which something sooo stupid as christ could have not existed at all or the bible could have been written by some crazy people or drunks.
And another one bites the dust :P I do believe there is higher being than us but I do not believe its a god, I believe its merely all of us when we die. Its like when we die we go to a different plane of existence, hey you never know I might be right but who cares anyway.

[Curiousasian]

I'm catholic

[louisgray]

I'm an atheist

[StoppingTime]

Ummm.... It's my turn !!! :P
I'm happy I got some people talking here, but I did expect a comment on my new religion lol
Anyways, People at school (very christian school) call me a atheist or just a weird person which I am. I do not belive In a god tho i dont mind how some people pratice their religion. Seriously, (I think this is a quote too) there is no such thing as Right/good and Wrong/Bad, it's just a popular opinion that the human morality made up. So if there is no right and wrong how came we are "suppost" to get put in heaven or hell by the good and bad things we done. This I dea just wipes out so many religions lol
Religion is a big thing in history, there was always the religion class which decided most things or for example the years, its determined by christs birth which something sooo stupid as christ could have not existed at all or the bible could have been written by some crazy people or drunks.
And another one bites the dust :P I do believe there is higher being than us but I do not believe its a god, I believe its merely all of us when we die. Its like when we die we go to a different plane of existence, hey you never know I might be right but who cares anyway.

How can you prove that humans "made up" religion? Who said there is no such thing as right or wrong? Killing= wrong, stealing= wrong, etc....... Should you get treated nicely if you did those things in your life?

Not all calendars are determined from when christ was born (or died idk), this is just what is widely used here in the U.S. And yes it is possible he didn't exist, but there is no way I can probe that to you. As for people making up religion, the Bible etc..., this is not what I choose to believe. And what do you mean we are the higher being when we die?

[Jess]

Humans made up religion to explain things....and now we have science, which proves more things than religion

[StoppingTime]

Humans made up religion to explain things....and now we have science, which proves more things than religion

Again, how can you prove humans made up All religions?

[Jess]

No idea, but science still proves more things than religion :/


what say you to this (I didn't create it)?

What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.

[Angel Androgynous]

Again, how can you prove humans made up All religions?

http://rob.nu/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/facepalm8.jpg

[deadpie]

Again, how can you prove humans made up All religions?

It's the more logical explanation.

And yeah, i'd take science over religion any day. Let's say you're a parent and your daughter snaps her leg. Do you pray for it to fix or take her somewhere to get it fixed? Hmmm. I mean, you can pray over the leg as much as you want, but no crazy magical shit is going to fix it.

[Angel Androgynous]

It's the more logical explanation.

And yeah, i'd take science over religion any day. Let's say you're a parent and your daughter snaps her leg. Do you pray for it to fix or take her somewhere to get it fixed? Hmmm. I mean, you can pray over the leg as much as you want, but no crazy magical shit is going to fix it.

To add on to this:

Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer...

[StoppingTime]

No idea, but science still proves more things than religion :/


what say you to this (I didn't create it)?
What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.

It is unknown what God did before he created everything because the Torah (Bible) did not tell us because it wasn't deemed as information we needed.
Yes, God himself is perfect (has been, is, always will be) He didn't need to create us, but He did. God has no needs, desires, and nothing He must do, we can't gauge Him with human emotions. Humans don't change what God "needs".
Why is a perfect creator impossible then?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by deadpie
It's the more logical explanation.

And yeah, i'd take science over religion any day. Let's say you're a parent and your daughter snaps her leg. Do you pray for it to fix or take her somewhere to get it fixed? Hmmm. I mean, you can pray over the leg as much as you want, but no crazy magical shit is going to fix it.
To add on to this:

Quote:
Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer...

You need a combination of action and prayer to help certain things. So yes, if your daughter snaps her leg, bring her to the hospital and get her treatment, and pray that it works.

[Angel Androgynous]

It is unknown what God did before he created everything because the Torah (Bible) did not tell us because it wasn't deemed as information we needed.
Yes, God himself is perfect (has been, is, always will be) He didn't need to create us, but He did. God has no needs, desires, and nothing He must do, we can't gauge Him with human emotions. Humans don't change what God "needs".
Why is a perfect creator impossible then?

A perfect machine does not create imperfect creations.


We are far from perfect.

[StoppingTime]

A perfect machine does not create imperfect creations.


We are far from perfect.

A perfect being can create whatever He wants, and why would it have to be perfect?
God didn't want to create us perfectly.

[Angel Androgynous]

A perfect being can create whatever He wants, and why would it have to be perfect?
You can't have a perfect world and a world with free will.

.____.
And he wants us to have suffering, disabilities, murder, rape, torture, war, injustice, diseases, starvation, inequality... (And that's not all of it, either)

People who suffer through all that cannot use free will to change it.
And why does God need a divine plan if we have free will? If he knows what's going to happen means we don't need free will. What if our free will goes against his plan? What good is a "divine plan" when any schmuck can come along and ruin it? If it's God's divine plan, then it was in his plan for me to not have any faith in him. It was in his plan for people to turn to science for answers. Means there is no free will. OR you know, if God exists... maybe... just maybe... he doesn't give a shit.

[Perseus]

How can you prove that humans "made up" religion? Who said there is no such thing as right or wrong? Killing= wrong, stealing= wrong, etc....... Should you get treated nicely if you did those things in your life?

Not all calendars are determined from when christ was born (or died idk), this is just what is widely used here in the U.S. And yes it is possible he didn't exist, but there is no way I can probe that to you. As for people making up religion, the Bible etc..., this is not what I choose to believe. And what do you mean we are the higher being when we die?
Right. Go learn about the history of the world. Humans have been in existence, at this state, for around ten thousand years. Homo Sapiens have been around for maybe 400,000 thousand years (We're Homo Sapien Sapiens), and let's just say that's a lot. Religion was made by humans. That's why all these ancient civilizations had gods that pertained to their particular way of life and what was going on in their daily lives. If humans didn't create it, then why are there so many religions that exist in this world, some of them being similar but different, take Native American religions and Judaism and Zoroastrianism.

[StoppingTime]

.____.
And he wants us to have suffering, disabilities, murder, rape, torture, war, injustice, diseases, starvation, inequality... (And that's not all of it, either)

People who suffer through all that cannot use free will to change it.
And why does God need a divine plan if we have free will? If he knows what's going to happen means we don't need free will. What if our free will goes against his plan? What good is a "divine plan" when any schmuck can come along and ruin it? If it's God's divine plan, then it was in his plan for me to not have any faith in him. It was in his plan for people to turn to science for answers. Means there is no free will. OR you know, if God exists... maybe... just maybe... he doesn't give a shit.

There is free will, and God doesn't interfere with it. Also, God does not have a divine plan, therefore, there is free will. He knows what each of us is going to do based on the actions we chose to do. God doesn't control if yo believe in him, or a flying spaghetti monster.

Right. Go learn about the history of the world. Humans have been in existence, at this state, for around ten thousand years. Homo Sapiens have been around for maybe 400,000 thousand years (We're Homo Sapien Sapiens), and let's just say that's a lot. Religion was made by humans. That's why all these ancient civilizations had gods that pertained to their particular way of life and what was going on in their daily lives. If humans didn't create it, then why are there so many religions that exist in this world, some of them being similar but different, take Native American religions and Judaism and Zoroastrianism.

Science and religion don't always tell the same story, in my belief, and you will say I'm crazy, but OK. I believe that there is a God and Torah etc... (call me ignorant, but still).

[Maxxie]

If God's so intelligent, why did he make me an atheist?

Sorry, a bit of lesser rhetoric but just wanted to throw that in there...

[Perseus]

Science and religion don't always tell the same story, in my belief, and you will say I'm crazy, but OK. I believe that there is a God and Torah etc... (call me ignorant, but still).

That has nothing to do with what I said. I advise you learn about, not just the history of your religion, but a lot of other ones, as well. Especially Zoroastrianism since Judaism ripped it off.

[StoppingTime]

If God's so intelligent, why did he make me an atheist?

Because he gave you free will to do whatever you want.

[Maxxie]

Because he gave you free will to do whatever you want.

So, even though he loves me, and wants me to follow him, he's going to hard wire my brain for intellectual thought and the capability of reasoning, therefore giving me a capacity to disprove (or at least disbelieve in God), and THEREFORE giving me a chance to go to Hell if I don't believe in him.

Eskimo: If I did not know about God and Sin would I go to Hell?
Priest: No, not if you didn't know.
Eskimo: Then why did you tell me?

[Angel Androgynous]

So, even though he loves me, and wants me to follow him, he's going to hard wire my brain for intellectual thought and the capability of reasoning, therefore giving me a capacity to disprove (or at least disbelieve in God), and THEREFORE giving me a chance to go to Hell if I don't believe in him.

Eskimo: If I did not know about God and Sin would I go to Hell?
Priest: No, not if you didn't know.
Eskimo: Then why did you tell me?

This. +rep, Max! :yeah:

Sigh.
Here is some enlightenment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o). Ahh George Carlin. <3

[StoppingTime]

If God's so intelligent, why did he make me an atheist?

Sorry, a bit of lesser rhetoric but just wanted to throw that in there...

So, even though he loves me, and wants me to follow him, he's going to hard wire my brain for intellectual thought and the capability of reasoning, therefore giving me a capacity to disprove (or at least disbelieve in God), and THEREFORE giving me a chance to go to Hell if I don't believe in him.

Eskimo: If I did not know about God and Sin would I go to Hell?
Priest: No, not if you didn't know.
Eskimo: Then why did you tell me?

There is not really a hell, and yes, He allows you to make a decision to believe in Him or not, and honestly, I cannot tell you what God thinks.

[Maxxie]

How the HELL is there NOT A HELL. Yes, pun intended.

Alright, in Judaism it doesn't really matter what you believe in. If you live a good life, you'll be sent to Gehenna and judged. A "soul forge" if you will (Good lord, this is sounding like World of Warcraft...), that purifies the soul for your ascent into heaven.

In Christianity, Islam, and Baha'i... You're fucked. The pit of fire? Yeah. I could talk about how heaven is hotter than hell, but... this is it anyway. (http://www.greatplay.net/uselessia/articles/heavenhhell.html)

Even if it's not eternal torment, it's eternal separation, which apparently is worse. Although, if the world was separated from God I think it'd be a pretty damn good place.

[StoppingTime]

How the HELL is there NOT A HELL. Yes, pun intended.

Alright, in Judaism it doesn't really matter what you believe in. If you live a good life, you'll be sent to Gehenna and judged. A "soul forge" if you will (Good lord, this is sounding like World of Warcraft...), that purifies the soul for your ascent into heaven.

In Christianity, Islam, and Baha'i... You're fucked. The pit of fire? Yeah. I could talk about how heaven is hotter than hell, but... this is it anyway. (http://www.greatplay.net/uselessia/articles/heavenhhell.html)

Even if it's not eternal torment, it's eternal separation, which apparently is worse. Although, if the world was separated from God I think it'd be a pretty damn good place.

Not really sure what your point is here, and I really hope your kidding with the heaven hotter than "hell" thing.

[Angel Androgynous]

How the HELL is there NOT A HELL. Yes, pun intended.

Alright, in Judaism it doesn't really matter what you believe in. If you live a good life, you'll be sent to Gehenna and judged. A "soul forge" if you will (Good lord, this is sounding like World of Warcraft...), that purifies the soul for your ascent into heaven.

In Christianity, Islam, and Baha'i... You're fucked. The pit of fire? Yeah. I could talk about how heaven is hotter than hell, but... this is it anyway. (http://www.greatplay.net/uselessia/articles/heavenhhell.html)

Even if it's not eternal torment, it's eternal separation, which apparently is worse. Although, if the world was separated from God I think it'd be a pretty damn good place.
Mm if there is a hell, I'll see you thar buddeh.

We can chill at the spa! There'll be a Jacuzzi, and a sauna, and Satan can be our bff... we can reek havoc everywhere. :D

I said it a billion times and I will say it again:
If heaven is full of bible thumping homophobes... I don't wanna go there anyway.

[Maxxie]

I'm not kidding with that "Heaven is hotter than hell" thing, either. :D

Not trying to be disparaging, just pointing out a pretty huge flaw in the "inspired" word of God.

Isaiah 30:26 reads, "Moreover, the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold as the light of seven days". That means that this celestial plane would get 50 times the amount of radiation that the earth does now. The absolute effective temperature of earth (my authority is science on this one) is around 300 degrees Kelvin. Therefore, using the Stefan-Boltzmann law of radiation ((H/E)4=50), where E is the absolute temperature of earth, H would be around 798 degrees Kelvin (or 525 Degrees Celsius)

Hell could not be hotter that 444.6 degrees Celsius, the point at which sulphur (or brimstone) turns from a liquid to a gas.

Revelations 21:8 says that: "But the fearful and unbelieving... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone."

So.

Heaven: 525 Degrees Celsius
Hell: 444.6 Degrees Celsius.

525 > 444.6

SCIENCE! :yeah:

[Angel Androgynous]

Hell yes!

(Pun intended)

[embers]

God has no needs, desires, and nothing He must do, we can't gauge Him with human emotions. Humans don't change what God "needs".

Then why does he display so much anger in the Torah / Old Testament? And why does a perfect God do so many atrocious things? (such as maul children with two bears)

[Maxxie]

Why didn't God reveal himself to the worshipers of Ba'al? I mean, stopping ritual prostitution and that mess would have been simple if a couple prophet's had some "revelations"? Why not to the Mesoamericans? The Orient? Siam? Austronesia? Africa? Why to a bunch of random people in the Levant and ONLY to the people in the Levant?

People who spewed prophecy in the Bible were labeled direct conduits of the word of God. Now they're called lunatics, by the people they're supposed to be preaching to of all things. What changed?

[StoppingTime]

I'm not kidding with that "Heaven is hotter than hell" thing, either. :D

Not trying to be disparaging, just pointing out a pretty huge flaw in the "inspired" word of God.

Isaiah 30:26 reads, "Moreover, the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold as the light of seven days". That means that this celestial plane would get 50 times the amount of radiation that the earth does now. The absolute effective temperature of earth (my authority is science on this one) is around 300 degrees Kelvin. Therefore, using the Stefan-Boltzmann law of radiation ((H/E)4=50), where E is the absolute temperature of earth, H would be around 798 degrees Kelvin (or 525 Degrees Celsius)

I have no comment to this for it is pure ridiculously.

Hell could not be hotter that 444.6 degrees Celsius, the point at which sulphur (or brimstone) turns from a liquid to a gas.

Revelations 21:8 says that: "But the fearful and unbelieving... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone."

So.

Heaven: 525 Degrees Celsius
Hell: 444.6 Degrees Celsius.

525 > 444.6

SCIENCE! :yeah:

Then why does he display so much anger in the Torah / Old Testament? And why does a perfect God do so many atrocious things? (such as maul children with two bears)

When it says God was ''angry" it doesn't mean it the way we think of it.

[Jess]

then what does it mean? -_-