Religion

[jokoko]

That's so filler. God happened and then everything happened? It cannot be proposed that that's even possible. The Big Bang it is just a spacetime point of infinite density. We will never be able to prove your point is possible unless we make a God somehow that makes another universe somehow. It's all batshit crazy. There's no way you can prove that God is the beginning of everything. It's all based on theory.

You would of gotten along really well with this user named Ripplemangle, who's an apologetic.

I'm guessing you're catholic. You know Aquinas said that stupidity was a sin? You know that means all mentally challenged people are pretty much going to be swimming in a lake of flames - mainly for something they can't control? Also, he died before Darwin was ever born, so he didn't have a clue on what Natural Selection meant, which is another problem with Aquinas' Teleological Argument.

Taken from atheismwiki -


Premise: every event has a cause.
Premise: there can be no infinite regress.
Premise: there exists some event e0.
From (1) and (3), it follows that e0 has a cause e1, which in turn has a cause e2, and so on, in an infinite regress.
From (2) we know that there can be no infinite regress, which contradicts (4).
Therefore, at least one of the premises must be false.

The first thing you said up at the top is, once again, NOT what Aquinas was saying. He is saying that God is uncaused that he NEVER happened just always was and perpetually is. For your second point, I am not trying to prove anything, just explaining a point of view, and yea, I agree it is crazy and can't be proven, but neither can any other theory about the beginning of the universe because we weren't there to see it. As for your second paragraph... Did you forget that I am NOT Aquinas and any qualms with his theology should be taken up with him. I was just explaining a quote that someone else made, not making a case for Aquinas. And as you have probably gleaned from my above statements, I would say that the fourth asterisk is wrong because God is not an event, and is the first cause. Nothing caused God to create, his creating-the-universe-ness was always there as a part of who God is. (sorry for the made up word, it was necessary considering we don't have an English equivalent.

P.S. I am glad to hear your opinion. Please state your views and why you believe them. If you already have, then can you tell me which page? There are far too many to go through.

[Death]

I agree it is crazy and can't be proven

Then why believe it?

but neither can any other theory about the beginning of the universe because we weren't there to see it.

We don't need to be. That's like saying that you see someone on the road covered with blood, obviously crushed by a car running over him. You didn't see it happen, but from the evidence, you know it did.

God is not an event, and is the first cause. Nothing caused God to create, his creating-the-universe-ness was always there as a part of who God is. (sorry for the made up word, it was necessary considering we don't have an English equivalent.

If God does not require a cause, then why does all the matter form which the universe is made up require a cause? You may as well have that as the first cause. But something powerful enough to create the universe with such ease cannot be simpler than its creation, so the thought of God not requiring a cause is no less illogical anyway.

[jokoko]

I REFUSE TO.

I refuse to answer to anyone about my personal beliefs. I am done with this thread.

Ummm, I am not trying to offend you, so please don't PM me any hate mail, but, if you meant what you said, what are you still doing on this thread?... besides upsetting people and not DISCUSSING your religion on a DISCUSSION forum about religion.

Then why believe it?

I plan to talk more in-depth about that once I get a few other points out of the way so please be patient with me.


We don't need to be. That's like saying that you see someone on the road covered with blood, obviously crushed by a car running over him. You didn't see it happen, but from the evidence, you know it did.

Actually no, you only can assume this because you already have previous confirmation of what someone looks like when run over with a car. We only have one universe to work with and no previous experience with the makings of universes. Though even then, this does not hold because you can't prove that some other cause doesn't have the same effect as the one previously observed.


If God does not require a cause, then why does all the matter form which the universe is made up require a cause? You may as well have that as the first cause. But something powerful enough to create the universe with such ease cannot be simpler than its creation, so the thought of God not requiring a cause is no less illogical anyway.

It is not matter that I'm saying requires cause; It is activity that requires cause, though I do believe God created matter.
I have a question as well. Why would you assume that I am saying God is simple? Personally, I find him incomprehensible. Let me rephrase. What about God do you find simple?

Please do not double post---Socko
Thanks, and sorry for not reading the rules. I have always been one to skip the instruction manual.

[Death]

Actually no, you only can assume this because you already have previous confirmation of what someone looks like when run over with a car. We only have one universe to work with

Are you sure? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse)

and no previous experience with the makings of universes. Though even then, this does not hold because you can't prove that some other cause doesn't have the same effect as the one previously observed.

But we do have all the experience from all the scientific research humanity has ever done. What I'm saying is that I'm not saying that there is one specific thing that humanity found which instantly led to the knowledge of the big bang, but a collection of scientific studies. From that standpoint, it's a bit different.

It is not matter that I'm saying requires cause; It is activity that requires cause,

Yes, this is true. But what point is this meant prove?

though I do believe God created matter.

What created God?

Remember that matter is eternal; it is neither created nor destroyed, only converted. Therefore, I find it logical to think that matter always existed and God cannot create it from nothing.

I have a question as well. Why would you assume that I am saying God is simple?

I don't. What I was saying was that the argument that the universe is too complex to have been able to exist from the start is illogical because so is God.

Personally, I find him incomprehensible.

Why? Can he (being a complex and therefore able being) not tell you what he is?

Let me rephrase. What about God do you find simple?

I don't find him simple in the slightest. He would have to be more complex than his creation to be able to make it, just like humans are more complex than computers.

[jokoko]

@Death: I feel that most of the questions you asked can be answered by simply re-reading my posts and those of people who have replied to me. First of, no, I'm not sure, but it doesn't matter because, as I stated, we still only have one to work with.(unless you invent an interspace-timetravel machine. I say go for it.) And for hopefully the last time, God was NOT created. He does not have a beginning. He is UNCAUSED. Yes, God does explain himself, but he is so vast that the more I learn, the more I realize my mind is not sufficient to grasp him, and I have learned more than most.

P.S. I don't know if I have asked you, but what are your beliefs? Why do you believe them? I have gathered that you are atheist, but that's all I really know.

P.P.S. I just realized that I didn't answer your matter question. You are right that matter can not come from nothing, but is an all powerful, all knowing God nothing to you? He made it of himself. The Bible says that he spoke it into being which implies that his words became matter and light etc.

[Death]

@Death: I feel that most of the questions you asked can be answered by simply re-reading my posts and those of people who have replied to me.

Probably not the best way to try to refute someone. Personally, I would adress my individual points like I've done with you.

First of, no, I'm not sure, but it doesn't matter because, as I stated, we still only have one to work with.(unless you invent an interspace-timetravel machine. I say go for it.) And for hopefully the last time, God was NOT created. He does not have a beginning. He is UNCAUSED. Yes, God does explain himself, but he is so vast that the more I learn, the more I realize my mind is not sufficient to grasp him, and I have learned more than most.

How can you know this when you have never seen or heard him or any evidence that confirms his existance? As I said, if the universe requires a creator despite the eternal nature of matter (which, like I've already said, makes scientific sense for it to alwasy exist), so does the concept of a god.

P.S. I don't know if I have asked you, but what are your beliefs? Why do you believe them? I have gathered that you are atheist, but that's all I really know.

Well I'm an atheist, so I'm not going to have any religious beliefs, by definition.

P.P.S. I just realized that I didn't answer your matter question. You are right that matter can not come from nothing, but is an all powerful, all knowing God nothing to you?

Then where did God come from? He would be matter that came from nowhere.

He made it of himself.

What do you mean? If you're saying God created himself, then that's a paradox; he would have to exist in order to make himself exist - this is a problem loop that cannot be entered. Or have I misunderstood you?

[deadpie]

God was NOT created. He does not have a beginning. He is UNCAUSED. Yes, God does explain himself, but he is so vast that the more I learn, the more I realize my mind is not sufficient to grasp him, and I have learned more than most.

Let me say this - we know our universe had a beginning, but we just don't know about before that beginning.

The universe isn't cyclic.

source (http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookEner1.html)
First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another. The First Law of Thermodynamics (Conservation) states that energy is always conserved, it cannot be created or destroyed. In essence, energy can be converted from one form into another.

Also, in terms for God to be an uncaused cause (If you're saying it is God that is this uncaused cause, because it could be something else also. Why God?) he would have to be something existing outside of OUR universe, so saying he is a supernatural creature from out of space or this universe and somehow created it. But then you would have to explain why he was not part of the universe and was somehow able to create the universe himself. It doesn't make sense at all.

Also, why does it have to be God that is the uncaused cause? Why can't it be something else? God is just a filler for intellectual laziness to put into things that cannot be explained. God is a very subjective word.

Ever heard of the recycled universe theory? In the competing theory, our universe generates and regenerates itself in an endless cycle of creation. The latest version of the cyclic model even matches key pieces of observational evidence supporting the older view. Some researchers go further and envision a type of infinite time that plays out not just in this universe but in a multiverse—a multitude of universes, each with its own laws of physics and its own life story. Still others seek to revise the very idea of time, rendering the concept of a “beginning” meaningless.

Sources (http://discovermagazine.com/2008/apr/25-3-theories-that-might-blow-up-the-big-bang)

David Lynch, my favorite filmmaker, who made this, which is one of my favorite quotes, said in an interview, "I don't think that people accept the fact that life doesn't make sense. I think it makes people terribly uncomfortable. It seems like religion and myth were invented against that, trying to make sense out of it."

So the IDEA of God was caused by mans fear - therefore the word God exists, the IDEA of God exists. However God could not be brought into being without a cause. The reason for this is, that we are not talking about one particle, but we're talking about a being with more particles then the universe; otherwise he would not have had the resources to create the universe without destroying himself. Since he sent his son we know that is not true, but if as christians say God created this world for his creatures, then there was no other universe by their own admission therefore he could not have gotten the matter needed to create this universe as God is matter himself... and where would he have come from and if they say he is not matter, then where did he get the matter to create the universe? Still it is impossible. If you want to build a house you have to have the materials. If nothing but god existed where did he get the materials. Some can shout magic, but the church burned witches, therefore if God had existed and was to create the universe, there would have been no universe only God. So to all Christians my message is "You should be happy God doesn't exist otherwise you wouldn't, it's that simple"


P.S. I don't know if I have asked you, but what are your beliefs? Why do you believe them? I have gathered that you are atheist, but that's all I really know.

I'm an atheist and I believe what I believe because nobody has proven me wrong. That's why I'm debating in this thread. Yes, I DO want someone to completely prove my points wrong. This is a battle to me. I want my atheism shattered and someone to prove to me they're correct and I'm wrong, but that hasn't happened yet.


THE END! THE THREAD EXPLODES WITH FIREWORKS! Good day to you VT. My work here is done.

[jokoko]

Probably not the best way to try to refute someone. Personally, I would adress my individual points like I've done with you.

Who ever said I wanted to refute your beliefs? I am merely stating mine because I thought people wanted to know.

How can you know this when you have never seen or heard him or any evidence that confirms his existance? As I said, if the universe requires a creator despite the eternal nature of matter (which, like I've already said, makes scientific sense for it to alwasy exist), so does the concept of a god.

Did I ever say that I had no evidence? I don't recall saying that. I do in fact have evidence. Firstly I have evidence in the things God has done in and through me. After coming to trust in Jesus I, almost overnight, went from being a depressed, angsty teen that cried himself to sleep every night because he couldn't go a day without doing something he didn't regret, couldn't control his desires to imagine almost every single girl he saw naked, couldn't behave lovingly to the people I cared about, and didn't cry about anything because nothing mattered enough to stir my emotions to the happiest, giddiest person I know. I now never regret anything that I do. I can look and talk to an attractive woman without ever lusting after her. I used to dislike lots of people, but now I can't help but absolutely love everyone that I meet because my reason for loving them isn't what they have done for or to me but because I am a loving person. And now I cry for a bunch of stuff like when Elie died in "UP" (it broke my heart) God has also communicated things to me in visions and has directly put thoughts in my head like telling me to tell people certain things or answering questions that I have.(I know the thoughts are from God because they will be random and about things that I know nothing of at times that I am thinking of a different subject. Once I even blacked out completely and felt a voice resonating in my mind saying "I am jealous for you, and I want to be the focus of your heart." As for what he has done through me, One time when I was driving with my aunt she slammed her finger in the door and it was swollen and she couldn't move it all. I prayed for her and in about 10 seconds she was completely fine with no swelling at all. God has also had me speak to people about personal things in there lives that I had no previous knowledge of thing in.


Well I'm an atheist, so I'm not going to have any religious beliefs, by definition.

No, by definition you don't believe there is a God or are gods, and you still haven't told me what you believe and why you believe it. You have only stated what you don't believe, which I already knew.

Then where did God come from? He would be matter that came from nowhere.

I am tired of saying this again and again and AGAIN, but God did not originate. He is eternal. And I'm surprised at your statement about God being matter. Considering how long this thread is, I thought someone would have already covered that God is spirit. [John 4:24]

What do you mean? If you're saying God created himself, then that's a paradox; he would have to exist in order to make himself exist - this is a problem loop that cannot be entered. Or have I misunderstood you?

You have consistently misunderstood me.

[Obscene Eyedeas]

I do in fact have evidence. Firstly I have evidence in the things God has done in and through me. After coming to trust in Jesus I, almost overnight, went from being a depressed, angsty teen that cried himself to sleep every night because he couldn't go a day without doing something he didn't regret, couldn't control his desires to imagine almost every single girl he saw naked, couldn't behave lovingly to the people I cared about, and didn't cry about anything because nothing mattered enough to stir my emotions to the happiest, giddiest person I know.

That isn't God. That is delusion, people believe what they want to believe. IT is basic psychology. Many people have found peace in different beliefs. It's called tricking your mind. It's not just found in religion but it is a common medical practice called the placebo effect. If you believe in something and you believe it will make you feel better you will feel better. You don't need a God for that. I now never regret anything that I do. I can look and talk to an attractive woman without ever lusting after her. I used to dislike lots of people, but now I can't help but absolutely love everyone that I meet because my reason for loving them isn't what they have done for or to me but because I am a loving person. And now I cry for a bunch of stuff like when Elie died in "UP" (it broke my heart)

I don't see how that has any relevance, athiests and people of other religions can change who they are and what they do to. It's called self control and will power. We write our own life stories.

God has also communicated things to me in visions and has directly put thoughts in my head like telling me to tell people certain things or answering questions that I have.(I know the thoughts are from God because they will be random and about things that I know nothing of at times that I am thinking of a different subject. Once I even blacked out completely and felt a voice resonating in my mind saying "I am jealous for you, and I want to be the focus of your heart."

Thoughts are electrical impulses in your mind you can control them however in some people due to mental or physical issues they can't or need medication to help them. Thoughts can come from your subconscious just because you believe you didn't know them doesn't mean anything, you could have forgotten them in your conscious mind. Attributing voices in your head to God isn't a good thing. I advise you to seek medical attention as you may have a condition if a voice is telling you what to do.

As for what he has done through me, One time when I was driving with my aunt she slammed her finger in the door and it was swollen and she couldn't move it all. I prayed for her and in about 10 seconds she was completely fine with no swelling at all.

That is what we call healing. If her finger was not broken the swelling will go down. You cannot attribute that to prayer. You have no proof that prayer caused or didn't cause it. It is simply the body repairing itself.

God has also had me speak to people about personal things in there lives that I had no previous knowledge of thing in.

It's called experience, psychiatrists and therapists do that for a living.


I am tired of saying this again and again and AGAIN, but God did not originate. He is eternal. And I'm surprised at your statement about God being matter. Considering how long this thread is, I thought someone would have already covered that God is spirit. [John 4:24]

Ok there are so many things to pick at here. I'll play nice. God cannot be spirit in order to create the universe to do so he would have had some sort of energy reading and I am not talking ghostbusters here. In order to create something you must have the tools and building blocks necessary to do so. It has been found that within this reality and this dimension that things cannot come from nothing. If you can prove that it can then you will have a foot to stand on otherwise your point is null and void.

[neigh]

catholic

[Death]

Who ever said I wanted to refute your beliefs? I am merely stating mine because I thought people wanted to know.

But you should be trying to refute me, because this is a debate forum, so please do.

Did I ever say that I had no evidence? I don't recall saying that. I do in fact have evidence.

So you think you can prove with certainty that a god exists? I'm looking forward to this...

Firstly I have evidence in the things God has done in and through me. After coming to trust in Jesus I, almost overnight, went from being a depressed, angsty teen that cried himself to sleep every night because he couldn't go a day without doing something he didn't regret, couldn't control his desires to imagine almost every single girl he saw naked, couldn't behave lovingly to the people I cared about, and didn't cry about anything because nothing mattered enough to stir my emotions to the happiest, giddiest person I know.

If you're not milking this, then you have obviously succumbed to the placebo effect. And even then, don't tell me you haven't felt depressed at some point. From this standpoint, this doesn't prove that a god must exist, let alone Jesus specificially.

I now never regret anything that I do.

That is a bad thing. People alwasy do bad things (yes, you included), and when you do you should regret them. Are you claiming to be perfect?

I can look and talk to an attractive woman without ever lusting after her.

You could do this before, you just didn't see a reason to. And besides, there is nothing wrong with lusting over someone. Lust is only a feeling and it is perfectly natural.

I used to dislike lots of people, but now I can't help but absolutely love everyone that I meet because my reason for loving them isn't what they have done for or to me but because I am a loving person.

But from the sounds of it, you are only doing so because your god tells you to be. Is that truly moral? You should be loving because you want to be, not because you are told to be. Read my signiture; it applies here.

And now I cry for a bunch of stuff like when Elie died in "UP" (it broke my heart) God has also communicated things to me in visions and has directly put thoughts in my head like telling me to tell people certain things or answering questions that I have.

So now you're suffering from hallucinations too? Talk about religious indocrtination. Look, all thoguhts and emotions are invoked through your brain. You are obviously a very spiritial person who doesn't differentiate between your ideals and reality, and therefore, you are associating strong emotion with divinity.

(I know the thoughts are from God because they will be random and about things that I know nothing of at times that I am thinking of a different subject. Once I even blacked out completely and felt a voice resonating in my mind saying "I am jealous for you, and I want to be the focus of your heart."

This isn't evidence for a god doing it, this is evidence for you having a vivid imagination which is unstable and subject to "attacks".

As for what he has done through me, One time when I was driving with my aunt she slammed her finger in the door and it was swollen and she couldn't move it all. I prayed for her and in about 10 seconds she was completely fine with no swelling at all. God has also had me speak to people about personal things in there lives that I had no previous knowledge of thing in.

Are you being serious? If God can heal people by prayer, then why was it that patients who were prayed for did no better and those who knew they were being prayed for did worse? Either here injury was never serious in the first place, or you are milking things again. If prayer works, there would be so much less suffering than there is today.

No, by definition you don't believe there is a God or are gods, and you still haven't told me what you believe and why you believe it. You have only stated what you don't believe, which I already knew.

I don't get what you're trying to ask though. I believe in things that I know are real. What more can I say?

I am tired of saying this again and again and AGAIN, but God did not originate. He is eternal.

So's the universe's matter. That is also eternal. Therefore, the universe's matter always having existed is no less logical than that for a god.

And I'm surprised at your statement about God being matter. Considering how long this thread is, I thought someone would have already covered that God is spirit.

That means that matter came from nothing, since god isn't matter. And what the hell is spirit and why the hell do you claim to know with certainty what god is?

You have consistently misunderstood me.

That's because you're speaing in riddles half the time and using examples that are of little revelance to what you're saying. I thought for a moment that you might be interesting to debate with, but now I'm wondering if you're much different to the people I've debated with recently.

[Blake1994]

catholic

Me too. Oh and watch out dude, I simply stated originally on this thread saying I was Catholic too, and I got attacked outright for simply stating what my religion was. Apparently a survey / poll question which asks simply what your religion is has turned into a heated outright rediculous debate.

[Death]

Me too. Oh and watch out dude, I simply stated originally on this thread saying I was Catholic too, and I got attacked outright for simply stating what my religion was. Apparently a survey / poll question which asks simply what your religion is has turned into a heated outright rediculous debate.

And here you go continuing this pointless discussion. Shows exactly how mature you are. Besides, you were the only one using proper insults. In fact, people like you are the cancer of this forum. Not because of religiocity, but because of attitudes like this and the one you've shown throughout.

[jokoko]

You guys wrote a whole bunch of stuff, and I am feeling a little too lazy to do the quote thing. As for the delusion/placebo effect idea, I have already considered that and you have just as much proof for that as I have for it being caused by God. I am not asking that you believe what I'm saying, only that you believe that this is what I believe. @obscene eyedeas: the last paragraph you wrote had some very good arguments compared to the rest of the stuff so I'll just pick on that. Where you said "It has been found that within this reality and this dimension" is the key phrase. God is not confined to this dimension considering the fact that he created it along with time itself. It's kind of like if this dimension was a line on a sheet of paper then God would be above and beyond the line and even the paper. As for what spirit is,— I think both of you guys have statements relating to this— I have no clue at all. I only know that is isn't matter but is able to interact with and become matter. @Death: I have two points to address with you. "That is a bad thing." Aren't you an atheist? What is a "bad thing," and who decides that it is bad? As for me being perfect, are you saying that I am not? How would you that I am not what I should be? Who decides what I should be? As for me doing your so called "bad things," sure I do things that I would consider to be bad, but I don't regret them because I am thankful for my sins because they remind me of God's sacrifice to take them away And your comment about me being loving was already answered in my previous post I am loving because it is my nature to be loving. Lastly,— I have already addressed this, so I don't know why you still bring it up— but I am not saying that matter can't be eternal. I am saying that in order for it to be eternal there must be a complete lack of activity, which there isn't.


FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE NOT DISCUSSING RELIGION, STOP POSTING, PLEASE.

[embers]

Let's not stir up old arguments.

Edit:


Where you said "It has been found that within this reality and this dimension" is the key phrase. God is not confined to this dimension considering the fact that he created it along with time itself. It's kind of like if this dimension was a line on a sheet of paper then God would be above and beyond the line and even the paper.

Yes, that's a common argument for God. However, considering you're a Christian (?) or part of the major three monotheistic religions, you believe God is 'testing' us for who is worthy of heaven and who is worthy of hell. Why would God need to test us - or warn Adam and Eve of the tree, or basically even give us free will - if he exists at all times? Assuming he is above time, he therefore exists at all times, and therefore our futures are predetermined.

[Death]

Agreed.

[Magus]

To add up embers previous thread.

If god is a complex concept with the uncaused cause or prime mover and names like that - then why in the hell he makes religion and dogma in the first place -- what prompted him to create angels and demons? Why make books of fables to inform people about his existence - why Adam and Eve? Why does he need to be in 3 different independent bodies?

I mean, a mere child can really find those things silly, and even might call it God's mistakes(If god is the master planner, can make almost perfect universes, why make childish mistakes?)

And that, God is beyond our understanding? Yeah, he is I guess, with his Adult-Child plannings.

[slappy]

Now everyone,
Sence we apparently are attacking people for there beliefs, it is only fare that we are attacked for our non-beliefs.
:-)
;-)

[Obscene Eyedeas]

You guys wrote a whole bunch of stuff, and I am feeling a little too lazy to do the quote thing. As for the delusion/placebo effect idea, I have already considered that and you have just as much proof for that as I have for it being caused by God.

Actually I have more evidence about the placebo effect then you will ever have on your theory. The placebo effect is a proven theory. "At week 36, the response rate was 82 percent in the initial placebo group and 83 percent in the active treatment groups, which certainly argues for some level of sustained placebo effect ("Patients who responded to placebo generally retained their response," the study authors note.) The remission rate was 48 percent in the initial placebo patients and 59 percent in the active treatment groups" http://www.furiousseasons.com/archives/2009/03/even_more_evidence_of_placebo_effect_in_teen_depression_trials.html

I am not asking that you believe what I'm saying, only that you believe that this is what I believe. @obscene eyedeas: the last paragraph you wrote had some very good arguments compared to the rest of the stuff so I'll just pick on that. Where you said "It has been found that within this reality and this dimension" is the key phrase. God is not confined to this dimension considering the fact that he created it along with time itself.

There is no proof of that however I will address it. If something is metaphysical there is no proof that it can act in this universe. To create the universe and to have sent his son to earth he must have had a measurable quantity in some shape or form. It is this universe and this reality we talk about as you say he created it, however it is impossible to create something you cannot interact with. We cannot split a neutron into two up quarks and a down quark with our hands however with equipment and building blocks we can measure them and we can break down the neutron. So therefore each party in an interaction must have a measurable quantity.

It's kind of like if this dimension was a line on a sheet of paper then God would be above and beyond the line and even the paper. As for what spirit is,— I think both of you guys have statements relating to this— I have no clue at all. I only know that is isn't matter but is able to interact with and become matter.

In order to be able to interact with matter something must consist of matter or anti matter which both have mass. God would have to be matter as if he was anti matter he would have annihilated everything he touched. To interact with matter he must have a measurable quantity at a certain point and that would have to be measurable meaning God as you so believe in him would not be metaphysical but a measurable quantity.

Lastly,— I have already addressed this, so I don't know why you still bring it up— but I am not saying that matter can't be eternal. I am saying that in order for it to be eternal there must be a complete lack of activity, which there isn't.

Why must there be? Is it because you believe or you have proven something that no one person has ever proven. You also rule out recycling, matter is always recycled, changed from one form to another.

FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE NOT DISCUSSING RELIGION, STOP POSTING, PLEASE.

Just because you do not wish to argue something with people does not mean they will stop posting, if you do not have adequate knowledge to reply then say so. If you do then reply, that's why you are in a debate thread.

[Death]

Now everyone,
Sence we apparently are attacking people for there beliefs, it is only fare that we are attacked for our non-beliefs.
:-)
;-)

Am I to be attacked for not believing in Zeus then? ;)

[Noooooooooo]

I have a question for the Religious type of people.
It goes like this
- If we are created in the image of God why do we all look different?


Okay, so I want the answer to be in the form of a question but It mustn't be a question but an answer.

^ Don't mind that part.

[Magus]

I have a question for the Religious type of people.
It goes like this
- If we are created in the image of god why do we all look different?

Not the religious type -- only in Christianity its says so.

God, in other religions(yes, even in Hinduism), is truly an inscrutable abstract entity. We all know that we came from species of apes 60000 years ago, as far as this goes, there are innumerable proofs to back this up. And how many proofs for that we are made from God's image(disregarding scripts of fables)? I will leave you people to judge that.

I don't think that it literally means the image of God, but as an allegory for human behaviour, divinity or something like that.

[Perseus]

I have a question for the Religious type of people.
It goes like this
- If we are created in the image of God why do we all look different?


Okay, so I want the answer to be in the form of a question but It mustn't be a question but an answer.

^ Don't mind that part.

That's actually really simple. All humans look similar. All it is saying is humans resemble God's physical features. You're just over thinking it. This is coming from an atheist, by the way.

[embers]

I have a question for the Religious type of people.
It goes like this
- If we are created in the image of God why do we all look different?

I think that in Christianity (from where this belief originates), Adam and Eve were the perfect humans created in God's image. The fact that their family had to participate in incest in order to 'be fruitful and multiply' meant that each new generation had lost some of those features of perfection. This is, I think, why God ruled out incest later on - because the human race's physical features were in decline and to lessen that effect, people had to partake in as little incest as possible.

But I'm not a Christian, and I'm not a mono/polytheist, so I wouldn't know.

[Obscene Eyedeas]

I have a question for the Religious type of people.
It goes like this
- If we are created in the image of God why do we all look different?

I am an athiest but you have taken this to be a literal meaning however that is not how it was intended. The main belief is that the image of God is that humanity's reflection of God is his compassion, love, hatred, fellowship, and other characteristics.

Also it is man who is the image of God and women are considered to be the image of man. So when you look at this you must differentiate. 1 Cor. 11:7

"5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." He was seen as the perfect image of God because he was without sin.

That is the most common belief.

[Noooooooooo]

I am an athiest but you have taken this to be a literal meaning however that is not how it was intended.

No, I have not taken this in a literal meaning.I knew the answer before asking. I wanted to see the views of other people.

[Obscene Eyedeas]

I have a question for the Religious type of people.
It goes like this
- If we are created in the image of God why do we all look different?

No, I have not taken this in a literal meaning.I knew the answer before asking. I wanted to see the views of other people.

Having asked why we don't look the same if we are created in the image of God you are asking about the literal meaning. So you did take it as a literal meaning when asking the question.

[beag_amhain]

by birth im roman catholic, but i was brought up between roman catholic and the church of ireland, so if asked my religion i jus say christian cuz their both 'branchs'? of it, but personaly i believe im atheist cuz i dont believe n antin =]

[deadpie]

Hey guys. Long time no see in this thread. Just stopped by here to drop off a list of Biblical contradictions I found on an online site called skeptically -


New Testament


Jesus' lineage was traced through David's son Solomon. Mt.1:6.
Jesus' lineage was traced through David's son Nathan. Lk.3:31.

The announcement of the special birth came before conception. Lk.1:26-31.
The announcement of the special birth came after conception. Mt.1:18-21.
Jesus' parents were told of their son's future greatness. Mt.1:18-21; Lk.1:28-35.
Jesus' parents knew nothing of their son's potential. Lk.2:48-50.
The angel told Joseph. Mt.1:20.
The angel told Mary. Lk.1:28.
There were 28 generations from David to Jesus. Mt.1:17.
There were 43 generations from David to Jesus. Lk.3:23-31.
Jacob was Joseph's father. Mt.1:16.
Heli was Joseph's father. Lk.3:23.
He was to be called Emmanuel. Mt.1:23.
He was called Jesus. Mt.1:25.
Joseph, Mary, and Jesus flee to Egypt while Herod slaughters all males under 2 years old. Mt.2:13-16. (Note: Jesus' cousin, John, was also under 2 and survived without having to flee.)
Joseph, Mary, and Jesus did not flee to Egypt, but remained for temple rituals. No slaughter of infants is mentioned! Lk.2:21-39.
Jesus was tempted during the 40 days in the wilderness. Mk.1:13.
Jesus was tempted after the 40 days in the wilderness. Mt.4:2,3.
The devil first took Jesus to the pinnacle, then to the mountain top. Mt.4:5-8.
The devil first took Jesus to the mountain top, then to the pinnacle. Lk.4:5-9.
Satan tempted Jesus. Mt.4:1-10; Mk.1:13; Lk.4:1,2.
Satan had no interest in Jesus. Jn.14:30.
The baptism of Jesus was with the "Holy Ghost". Mk.1:8; Jn.1:33.
Fire was also added to the baptism. Mt.3:11; Lu.3:16.
John knew of Jesus before he baptized him. Mt.3:11-13; Jn.1:28,29.
John knew nothing of Jesus at all. Mt.11:1-3.
Jesus begins his ministry after John's arrest. Mk.1:13,14.
Jesus begins his ministry before John's arrest. Jn.3:22-24.
It is recorded that Jesus saw the spirit descending. Mt.3:16; Mk.1:10.
It is recorded that John saw the spirit descending. Jn.1:32.
The heavenly voice addressed the gathering. Mt.3:17.
The heavenly voice addressed Jesus. Mk.1:11; Lk.3:22.
Immediately after the baptism, Jesus spent 40 days in the wilderness. Mt.4:1,2; Mk.1:12,13.
Three days after the baptism, Jesus was at the wedding in Cana. Jn.2:1.
Jesus went to Bethphage and the Mt. of Olives, then left for Bethany. Mt.21:1,17.
Jesus went to Bethphage and Bethany at the Mt. of Olives. Mk.11:1; Lk.19:29.
Jesus went to Bethany and then Jerusalem. Jn.12:1,12.
Jesus and his disciples taught in Capernaum. Mk.1:20,21.
Only Jesus taught in Capernaum. Lk.4:30,31.
Peter was chosen, with Andrew, by the Sea of Galilee. Mt.4:18-20; Mk.1:16-18.
Peter was chosen, with James and John, by the lake of Gennesaret. Lk.5:2-11.
Andrew chose Jesus and then got Peter to join. Jn.1:35-42.
Peter was to preach to the Jews. Mt.10:2,5,6; Gal.2:7.
Peter was to preach to the Gentiles. Acts 15:7.
Jesus cured Simon Peter's mother-in-law after he cleansed the leper. Mt.8:1-15.
Jesus cured Simon Peter's mother-in-law before he cleansed the leper. Mk.1:30-42; Lk.4:38 to 5:13.
Peter's mother-in-law was healed before Peter was called to be a disciple. Lu.4:38,39; 5:10.
Peter's mother-in-law was healed after Peter was called to be a disciple. Mt.4:18,19; 8:14,15; Mk.1:16,17,30,31.
James and John were with Jesus when he healed Simon Peter's mother-in-law. Mk.1:29-31.
James and John were not with Jesus when he healed Simon Peter's mother-in-law. Lu.4:38,39; 5:10,11.
Lebbaeus (Thaddaeus) was the name of an apostle - but no Judas, brother of James. Mt. 10:3.
Judas, the brother of James, was an apostle, but no Thaddaeus. Lk.6:16; Acts 1:13.
The centurion's servant was healed in between the cleansing of the leper and the healing of Peter's mother-in-law. Mt.8:2-15.
The centurion's servant was healed after the cleansing of the leper and the healing of Peter's mother-in-law. Lu.4:38,39; 5:12,13; 7:1-10.
The people were not impressed with the feeding of the multitude. Mk.6:52.
The people were very impressed with the feeding of the multitude. Jn.6:14.
After the feeding of the multitude, Jesus went to Gennesaret. Mk.6:53.
After the feeding of the multitude, Jesus went to Capernaum. Jn.6:14-17.
A demon cries out that Jesus is the Holy One of God. Mk.1:23,24.
Everyone who confesses that Jesus came in the flesh is of God. 1 Jn.4:2.
Jesus cursed the fig tree so that it would not bear fruit. Mt.21:19; Mk.11:14.
It wasn't time for the fig tree to bear fruit. Mk.11:13.
The fig tree withers immediately, and the disciples are amazed. Mt.21:19,20.
The disciples first notice the withered tree the next day. Mk.11:20,21.
Jesus is the mediator of the "Father". 1 Tim.2:5; 1 Jn.2:1.
Jesus sits on "his" right hand. Mk. 16:19.
Jesus and the "Father" are one in the same. Jn.10:30.
There is one "God". 1 Tim.2:5; Jms.2:19.
There are three. 1 Jn.5:7.
Jesus said to honor your father and mother. Mt.15:4; Mt.19:19; Mk.7:10; Mk.10:19; Lk.18:20.
Jesus said that he came to set people against their parents. Mt.10:35-37; Lk.12:51-53; Lk.14:26.
Jesus said to call no man father. Mt.23:9.
Jesus/God said, "You fool…". Lk.12:20; Mt.23:17.
Paul calls people fools. 1 Cor.15:36.
Call someone a fool and you go to hell. Mt.5:22.
Anger by itself is a sin. Mt.5:22.
But not necessarily. Eph.4:26.
Ask and it shall be given. Seek and you will find. Knock and it will be opened to you. Mt.7:7,8; Lk.11:9,10.
Ask and you shall be refused. Seek and you won't find. Knock and you will be refused entrance. Lk.13:24-27.
Do not judge. Mt.7:1,2.
Unless it is necessary, of course. 1 Jn.4:1-3.
Jesus is thankful that some things are hidden. Mt.11:25; Mk.4:11,12.
Jesus said that all things should be made known. Mk.4:22.
Jesus said that no sign would be given. Mk.8:12.
Jesus said that no sign would be given except for that of Jonas. Mt.12:39; Lk.11:29.
Jesus showed many signs. Jn.20:30; Acts 2:22.
Jesus stated that the law was until heaven and earth ended. Mt. 5:17-19.
Jesus stated that the law was only until the time of John. Lk.16:16.
The "Sermon on the Mount" took place on the mountain. Mt.5:1.
The "Sermon on the Mount" took place on a plain. Lu.6:17.
The "Lord's Prayer" was taught to many during the "Sermon on the Mount". Mt.6:9.
The "Lord's Prayer" was taught only to the disciples at another time. Lu.11:1.
Jesus had his own house. Mk.2:15.
Jesus did not have his own house. Lu.9:58.
Good works should be seen. Mt.5:16.
Good works should not be seen. Mt.6:1-4.
Jesus said that Salvation was only for the Jews. Mt.15:24; Mt.10:5,6; Jn.4:22; Rom.11:26,27.
Paul said that salvation was also for the Gentiles. Acts 13:47,48.
Repentance is necessary. Acts 3:19; Lu.3:3.
Repentance is not necessary. Rom.11:29.
Non-believers obtain mercy. Rom.11:32.
Only believers obtain mercy. Jn.3:36; Rom.14:23.
Only baptized believers obtain mercy. Mk.16:16.
Mercy cannot be predetermined. Rom.9:18.
All who call on the "Lord" will be saved. Rom.10:13; Acts 2:21.
Only those predestined will be saved. Acts 13:48; Eph.1:4,5; 2 Thes.2:13; Acts 2:47.
Jesus said he would not cast aside any that come to him. Jn.6:37.
Jesus said that many that come to him will be cast aside. Mt.7:21-23.
Salvation comes by faith and not works. Eph.2:8,9; Rom.11:6; Gal.2:16; Rom.3:28.
Salvation comes by faith and works. Jms.2:14,17,20.
The righteous have eternal life. Mt.25:46.
The righteous are barely saved. 1 Pet.4:18.
There are no righteous. Rom.3:10.
Believe and be baptized to be saved. Mk.16:16.
Be baptized by water and the spirit to be saved. Jn.3:5.
Endure to the end to be saved. Mt.24:13.
Call on the name of the "Lord" to be saved. Acts 2:21; Rom.10:13.
Believe in Jesus to be saved. Acts 16:31.
Believe, then all your household will be saved. Acts 16:31.
Hope and you will be saved. Rom.8:24.
Believe in the resurrection to be saved. Rom.10:9.
By grace you are saved. Eph.2:5
By grace and faith you are saved. Eph.2:8.
Have the love of truth to be saved. 2 Thes.2:10.
Mercy saves. Titus 3:5.
Backsliders are condemned. 2 Pet.2:20.
Backsliders are saved regardless. Jn.10:27-29.
Forgive seventy times seven. Mt.18:22.
Forgiveness is not possible for renewed sin. Heb.6:4-6.
Divorce, except for unfaithfulness, is wrong. Mt.5:32.
Divorce for any reason is wrong. Mk.10:11,12.
Jesus approved of destroying enemies. Lk.19:27.
Jesus said to love your enemies. Mt.5:44.
God resides in heaven. Mt.5:45; Mt.6:9; Mt.7:21.
Angels reside in heaven. Mk.13:32.
Jesus is with God in heaven. Acts 7:55,56
Believers go to heaven. 1 Pet.1:3,4.
Heaven will pass away. Mt.24:35; Mk.13:31; Lk.21:33.
Pray that you don't enter temptation. Mt.26:41.
Temptation is a joy. Jms.1:2.
God leads you into temptation. Mt.6:13.
God tempts no one. Jms.1:13.
Take no thought for tomorrow. God will take care of you. Mt.6:25-34; Lk.12:22-31.
A man who does not provide for his family is worse than an infidel. 1 Tim.5:8.
Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Acts 2:21; Rom.10:13.
Not everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Mt.7:21.
Only those whom the Lord chooses will be saved. Acts 2:39.
We are justified by works and not by faith. Mt.7:21; Rom.2:6,13; Jms.2:24.
We are justified by faith and not by works. Jn.3:16; Rom.3:27; Eph.2:8,9.; Gal.2:16.
Do not take sandals (shoes) or staves. Mt.10:10.
Take only sandals (shoes) and staves. Mk.6:8,9.
Jesus said that in him there was peace. Jn.16:33.
Jesus said that he did not come to bring peace. Mt.10:34; Lk.12:51.
Jesus said that John the Baptist was a prophet and Elijah. Mt.11:9; Mt.17:12,13.
John said that he was not a prophet nor was he Elijah. Jn.1:21.
Jesus said that he was meek and lowly. Mt.11:29.
Jesus makes whips and drives the moneychangers out from the temple. Mt. 21:12; Mk.11:15,16; Jn.2:15.
Jesus said, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees". Lk.12:1.
Jesus said, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees". Mt.16:6,11.
Jesus said, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Herod". Mk.8:15.
Jesus founds his church on Peter. Mt.16:18.
Jesus calls Peter "Satan" and a hindrance. Mt.16:23.
The mother of James and John asks Jesus to favor her sons. Mt.20:20,21.
They ask for themselves. Mk.10:35-37.
Jesus responds that this favor is not his to give. Mt.20:23; Mk.10:40.
Jesus said that all authority is given to him. Mt.28:18; Jn.3:35.
Jesus heals two unnamed blind men. Mt.20:29,30.
Jesus heals one named blind man. Mk.10:46-52.
Jesus healed all that were sick. Mt.8:16; Lk.4:40.
Jesus healed many that were sick - but not all. Mk.1:34.
The council asks Jesus if he is the Son of God. Lk.22:70. The high priest asks Jesus if he is the Christ, the Son of God. Mt.26:63.
The high priest asks Jesus if he is the Christ the Son of the Blessed. Mk.14:61.
The high priest asks Jesus about his disciples and his doctrine. Jn.18:19.
Jesus answers to the effect of “You said it, not me”. Mt.26:64; Lk.22:70.
Jesus answers definitely, “I am”. Mk.14:62.
At the Mount of Olives, Jesus told Peter he would deny him three times. Mt.26:30-34.
At the Passover meal, Jesus told Peter he would deny him three times. Lu.22:13,14,34.
Peter was to deny Jesus before the cock crowed. Mt.26:34; Lk.22:34; Jn.13:38.
Peter was to deny Jesus before the cock crowed twice. Mk.14:30.
The cock crowed once. Mt.26:74.
The cock crowed twice. Mk.14:72.
Peter makes his first denial to a maid and some others. Mt.26:69,70.
It was only to the maid. Mk.14:66-68; Lk.22:56,57; Jn.18:17.
Peter’s second denial was to another maid. Mt.26:71,72.
It was to the same maid. Mk.14:69,70.
It was to a man and not a maid. Lk.22:58.
It was to more than one person. Jn.18:25.
Peter’s third denial was to several bystanders. Mt.26:73,74; Mk.14:69,70.
It was to one person. Lk.22:59,60.
It was to a servant. Jn.18:26,27.
The chief priests bought the field. Mt.27:6,7.
Judas bought the field. Acts 1:16-19.
Judas threw down the money and left. Mt.27:5.
Judas used the coins to buy the field. Acts 1:18.
Judas hanged himself. Mt.27:5.
Judas fell headlong and burst his head open. Acts 1:18.
Jesus did not answer any of the charges. Mt.27:12-14; Lk.23:9.
Jesus answered some of the charges. Mk.14:61,62.
Jesus answered all of the charges. Jn.18:33-37.
Jesus said that eternal life would be given to all that were given to him. Jn.11:27-29; Jn.17:12.
Jesus released Judas in order to keep this promise. Jn.18:5-9.
The chief priests and elders persuade the people. Mt.27:20.
Only the chief priests persuade the people. Mk.15:11.
The chief priests and the people persuade themselves. Lk.23:13-23.
Jesus is given a scarlet robe. Mt.27:28.
Jesus is given a purple robe. Mk.15:17; Jn.19:2.
Jesus is given a gorgeous robe. Lk.23:11.
The sign says, “This is Jesus the King of the Jews”. Mt.27:37.
The sign says, “The King of the Jews”. Mk.15:26.
In three languages, the sign says, “This is the King of the Jews”. Lk.23:38.
In the same three languages, the sign says, “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews”. Jn.19:19,20.
Jesus asks God, The Father, why he has forsaken him. Mt.27:46.
Jesus said that he and The Father were one in the same. Jn.10:30; Jn.17:11,21,22.
The centurion says, “Truly this was the son of God”. Mt.27:54.
The centurion says, “Truly this man was the son of God”. Mk.15:39.
The centurion says, “Certainly, this was a righteous man”. Lk.23:47.
There was no centurion. Jn.19:31-37.
Jesus was crucified at the third hour. Mk.15:25.
Jesus was still before Pilate at the sixth hour. Jn.19:13,14.
The women looked on from “afar”. Mt.27:55; Mk.15:40; Lk.23:49.
The women were very close. Jn.19:25.
The last recorded words of Jesus were:
Version 1: “Eli, Eli …My God, My God why have you forsaken me” Mt.27:46.
Version 2: “Eloi, Eloi…My God, My God why have you forsaken me” Mk.15:34.
Version 3: “Father, into your hands I commend my spirit”. Lk.23:46.
Version 4: “It is finished”. Jn.19:30.
A guard was placed at the tomb the day after the burial. Mt.27:65,66.
No guard is mentioned. Mk.15:44-47; Lk.23:52-56; Jn.19:38-42.
Only those keeping the words of Jesus will never see death. Jn.8:51.
Jesus’ disciples will be killed. Mt.24:3-9.
All men die once. Heb.9:27.
Upon their arrival, the stone was still in place. Mt.28:1 2.
Upon their arrival, the stone had been removed. Mk.16:4; Lk.24:2; Jn.20:1.
There was an earthquake. Mt.28:2.
There was no earthquake. Mk.16:5; Lk.24:2-4; Jn.20:12.
The visitors ran to tell the disciples. Mt.28:8.
The visitors told the eleven and all the rest. Lk.24:9.
The visitors said nothing to anyone. Mk.16:8.
Jesus first resurrection appearance was right at the tomb. Jn.20:12-14.
Jesus first resurrection appearance was fairly near the tomb. Mt.28:8,9.
Jesus first resurrection appearance was on the road to Emmaus. Lk.24:13-16.
One doubted. Jn.20:24.
Some doubted. Mt.28:17.
All doubted. Mk.16:11; Lk.24:11,14.
Jesus said that his blood was shed for many. Mk.14:24.
Jesus said his blood was shed for his disciples. Lu.22:20.
Simon of Cyrene was forced to bear the cross of Jesus. Mt.27:32; Mk.15:21; Lu.23:26.
Jesus bore his own cross. Jn.19:16,17.
Jesus was offered vinegar and gall to drink. Mt.27:34.
Jesus was offered vinegar to drink. Jn.19:29,30.
Jesus was offered wine and myrrh to drink. Mk.15:23.
Jesus refused the drink offered him. Mk.15:23.
Jesus tasted the drink offered and then refused. Mt.27:34.
Jesus accepted the drink offered him. Jn.19:30.
Both “thieves” mocked Jesus on the cross. Mt. 27:44; Mk.15:32.
One “thief” sided with Jesus on the cross. Lu.23:39-41.
Joseph of Arimathaea boldly asked for the body of Jesus. Mk.15:43.
Joseph of Arimathaea secretly asked for the body of Jesus. Jn.19:38.
Jesus was laid in a nearby tomb. Mk.15:46; Lu.23:53; Jn.19:41.
Jesus was laid in Joseph’s new tomb. Mt.27:59,60.
A great stone was rolled in front of the tomb. Mt.27:60; Mk.15:46.
There was nothing in front of the tomb. Lu.23:55; Jn.19:41.
Nicodemus prepared the body with spices. Jn.19:39,40.
Failing to notice this, the women bought spices to prepare the body later. Mk. 16:1; Lu.23:55,56.
The body was anointed. Jn.19:39,40.
The body was not anointed. Mk.15:46 to 16:1; Lk.23:55 to 24:1.
The women bought materials before the sabbath. Lu.23:56.
The women bought materials after the sabbath. Mk.16:1.
Jesus was first seen by Cephas, then the twelve. 1 Cor.15:5.
Jesus was first seen by the two Marys. Mt.28:1,8,9.
Jesus was first seen by Mary Magdalene. Mk.16:9; Jn.20:1,14,15.
Jesus was first seen by Cleopas and others. Lu.24:17,18.
Jesus was first seen by the disciples. Acts 10:40,41.
The two Marys went to the tomb. Mt.28:1.
The two Marys and Salome went to the tomb. Mk.16:1.
Several women went to the tomb. Lu.24:10.
Only Mary Magdalene went to the tomb. Jn.20:1.
It was dawn when Mary went to the tomb. Mt.28:1; Mk.16:2.
It was dark when Mary went to the tomb. Jn.20:1.
An angel sat on the stone at the door of the tomb. Mt.28:2.
A man was sitting inside the tomb. Mk.16:5.
Two men were standing inside the tomb. Lk.24:3,4.
Two angels were sitting inside the tomb. Jn.20:12.
Peter did not go into the tomb but stooped and looked inside. Lk.24:12.
Peter did go into the tomb, and another disciple stooped and looked inside. Jn.20:3-6.
After the resurrection, the disciples held Jesus by the feet. Mt.28:9.
After the resurrection, Jesus told Thomas to touch his side. John 20:27.
After the resurrection, Jesus said that he was not to be touched. Jn.20:17.
Mary first saw Jesus at the tomb. Jn.20:11-15.
Mary first saw Jesus on her way home. Mt.28:8-10.
The women entered the tomb. Mk.16:5; Lk.24:3.
The women stayed outside the tomb. Jn.20:11.
The disciples were frightened when they saw Jesus. Lk.24:36,37.
The disciples were glad when they first saw Jesus. Jn.20:20.
Twelve disciples saw Jesus. 1 Cor.15:5.
Eleven disciples saw Jesus. Thomas was not there. Mt.28:16,17; Jn.20:19-25.
The disciples doubted that Jesus had risen from the dead. Mt.28:17.
The Pharisees and chief priests believed it possible. Mt.27:62-66.
Jesus ascended on the third day after the resurrection. Lk.24:21,50,51.
Jesus ascended the same day as the crucifixion. Lk.23:42 43.
Jesus ascended forty days after the resurrection. Acts 1:3,9.
At the time of the ascension, there were about 120 brethren. Acts 1:15.
At the time of the ascension, there were about 500 brethren. 1 Cor.15:6.
The moneychangers incident occurred at the end of Jesus’ career. Mt.21:11,12.
The moneychangers incident occurred at the beginning of Jesus’ career. Jn.2:11-15.
Zacharias was the son of Jehoida, the priest. 2 Chr.24:20.
Jesus said that Zacharias was the son of Barachias. Mt.23:35. (Note: The name Barachias or Barachiah does not appear in the OT.)
The coming of the kingdom will be accompanied by signs and miracles. Mt.24:29-33; Mk.13:24-29.
It will not be accompanied by signs and miracles since it occurs from within. Lk.17:20,21.
The kingdom was prepared from the beginning. Mt.25:34.
Jesus said that he was going to go and prepare the kingdom. Jn.14:2,3.
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin. Mk.3:29.
All sins are forgivable. Acts 13:39; Col.2:13; 1 Jn.1:9.
The ascension took place while the disciples were seated together at a table. Mk.16:14-19.
The ascension took place outdoors at Bethany. Lk.24:50,51.
The ascension took place outdoors at Mt. Olivet. Acts 1:9-12.
The holy spirit was with John from before he was born. Lk.1:15,41.
The holy spirit was with Elizabeth before John’s birth. Lk.1:41.
The holy spirit was with Zechariah. Lk.1:67.
The holy spirit was with Simeon. Lk.2:25.
The holy spirit is obtained by asking. Lk.11:13.
The holy spirit did not come into the world until after Jesus had departed. Jn.7:39; Jn.16:7; Acts 1:3-8.
Sometimes God is responsible for unbelief. 2 Thes.2:11,12.
Sometimes Jesus is responsible for unbelief. Mk.4:11,12.
The devil causes unbelief. Lk.8:12.
Whoever hates his brother is a murderer. 1 Jn.3:15.
If anyone claims to love God but hates his brother, he is a liar. 1 Jn.4:20.
No one can be a disciple of Jesus unless he hates his brother. Lk.14:26.
Believers do not come into judgment. Jn.5:24.
All people come into judgment. Mt.12:36; 2 Cor.5:10; Heb.9:27; 1 Pet.1:17; Jude 14,15; Rev.20:12,13.
Jesus says that, if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is true. Jn.8:14.
Jesus says that, if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is not true. Jn.5:31.
Men can choose whether or not to believe. Jn.5:38-47.
Only God chooses who will believe. Jn.6:44.
None of Jesus’ followers would be lost. Jn.10:27-29.
Some of Jesus’ followers would be lost. 1 Tim.4:1.
Jesus is the ruling prince of this world. Rev.1:5.
The prince of this world will be cast out. Jn.12:31.
Jesus says all men will be saved. Jn.3:17.
Only 144,000 virgin men will be saved. Rev. 14:1-4.
God wants all men to be saved. 1 Tim.2:3,4; 2 Pet.3:9.
God does not want all men to be saved. Jn.12:40.
Peter asks Jesus where he is going. Jn.13:36.
Thomas asks Jesus where he is going. Jn.14:5.
Jesus said that no one asked where he was going. Jn.16:5.
Jesus lost only one disciple. Jn.17:12.
Jesus lost no disciples. Jn.18:9.
Jesus came into the world to bear witness to the truth. Jn.18:37.
The truth has always been evident. Rom.1:18-20.
During his first resurrection appearance, Jesus gave his disciples the holy spirit. Jn.20:22.
The holy spirit was given to the disciples after his ascension. Acts 1:3-8.
The world could not contain all that could be written of Jesus. Jn.21:25.
All was written. Acts.1:1.
Obey the laws of men for it is the will of God. 1 Pet.2:13-15.
The disciples disobey the council. Acts 5:40-42.
Obey God, not men. Acts 5:29.
Obey men. It is God’s will. Rom.13:1-4; 1 Pet.2:13-15.
God hated Esau and loved Jacob even before they were born. Rom.9:10-13.
God shows no partiality and treats all alike. Acts 10:34; Rom.2:11.
All who have sinned without the law will perish without the law. Rom.2:12.
Where there is no law there is no sin or transgression. Rom.4:15.
Doers of the law will be justified. Rom.2:13.
Doers of the law will not be justified. Rom.3:20; Gal.3:11.
The law has dominion. Rom.7:1.
The law does not have dominion. Rom.6:14.
The law was the result of sin. Gal.3:19.
Sin is the result of breaking the law. 1 Jn.3:4.
Those of “God” cannot sin. 1 Jn.3:9.
Those of “God” can sin. 1 Jn.1:7 8.
The anointing of Jesus teaches right from wrong. 1 Jn.2:27.
The law written on the heart and conscience teaches right from wrong. Rom.2:15.
Abraham was justified by faith. Heb.11:8.
Abraham was justified by works. Jms.2:21.
Abraham was not justified by works. Rom.4:2.
It is not good to eat or drink anything that might cause your brother to stumble or be offended. Rom.14:21.
Let no one pass judgment on you in matters of food or drink. Col.2:16.
It is better that widows should not remarry. 1 Cor.7:8.
It is better that young widows should remarry. 1 Tim.5:11-14.
The god of this world blinds people to the gospel. 2 Cor.4:4.
There is only one god. 1 Cor.8:4.
The powers of this world are wicked, so fight against them. Eph.6:11-13.
All powers are ordained of God and, if you resist, you are damned. Rom.13:1,2.
Bear one another’s burdens. Gal.6:2.
Bear your own burdens. Gal.6:5.
Anyone who even greets a non-believer shares his wicked work. 2 Jn.10,11.
Always be ready to answer any man concerning your faith. 1 Pet.3:15.
All of the grass on the earth is burned up. Rev.8:7.
The army of locusts are instructed not to harm the grass. Rev.9:4.
Only “The Father” knows. Mk.13:32.
“Jesus” and “The Father” are one. Jn.10:30; 17:11,21,22.
Jesus said that he would judge. Jn.5:22,27-30; Jn.9:39.
Jesus said that he would not judge. Jn.8:15; Jn.12:47.
Jesus said that The Father judges. Jn.12:48,49.
Jesus said that The Father does not judge. Jn.5:22.
Jesus said that his disciples would judge. Lk.22:30.
He that does not believe is damned. Mk.16:16.
Thomas did not believe and was not damned. Jn.20:27-29.
“When his branch is yet tender”. Mt.24:32.
“When her branch is yet tender”. Mk.13:28.
Jesus is God. Jn.10:30.
Jesus is the “image” of God. 2 Cor.4:4.
Jesus was a man approved by God. Acts 2:22.
Jesus and God are one in the same. Jn.1:1.
Jesus is beside himself. Mk.16:19; Acts 2:32,33; 7:55; Rom.8:34; etc.
Jesus is the Son of God. Jn.6:69; Jn.20:31.
Jesus is the Son of Man. Mt.18:11; Lk.21:27.
Paul states that he does not lie. Rom.9:1; 2 Cor.11:31; Gal.1:20; 1 Tim.2:7.
Paul states that he does lie. Rom.3:7.
Paul said that he does not use trickery. 1 Thes.2:3.
Paul admits to using trickery. 2 Cor.12:16.
Paul says that circumcision is nothing. 1 Cor.7:19.
Paul says that circumcision is profitable. Rom.2:25; Rom.3:1,2.
Do not covet. Rom.7:7; Rom.13:9.
Paul says covet. 1 Cor.12:31; 1 Cor.14:39.
Paul teaches not to steal. Eph.4:28.
Paul admits to stealing. 2 Cor.11:8.
Paul was assured that he would not be hurt. Acts 18:9,10.
Paul was often physically abused. 2 Cor.11:23-27.
Paul states that the law is necessary. Rom.3:31.
Paul states that the law is not necessary. Rom.6:14.
Jesus said to go and baptize. Mt.28:19.
Paul said he was not sent to baptize. 1 Cor.1:17.
Paul said he was not sent to baptize but to preach. 1 Cor.1:17.
Paul baptized. 1 Cor.1:16.
Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law. Mt.5:17-19.
Paul said otherwise. Eph.2:15.
Jesus said that God did not condemn the world. Jn. 3:17.
Paul said that God did condemn the world. Rom.5:18.
Those present at Paul’s conversion stood. Acts 9:7.
They fell to the ground. Acts 26:14.
Those present at Paul’s conversion heard a voice but saw nothing. Acts 9:7.
Those present at Paul’s conversion saw a light but heard nothing. Acts 22:9.
Shortly after his conversion, Paul went to Damascus where he spent some time with the apostles. Acts 9:19.
Paul went to Damascus three years later and saw only Peter and James. Gal.1:18,19.
Shortly after his conversion, Paul went to Damascus and then to Jerusalem. Acts 9:18-26.
Shortly after his conversion, Paul went to Arabia, then to Damascus, and then, 3 years later, to Jerusalem. Gal.1:17,18.
In Damascus, the governor attempts to seize Paul. 2 Cor.11:32.
In Damascus, the Jews attempt to seize Paul. Acts 9:22,23.
The holy spirit forbids preaching in Asia. Acts 16:6.
Paul preaches in Asia anyway. Acts 19:8-10.
Paul said he would not be a servant of Christ if he tried to please men. Gal.1:10.
Paul said that he tried to please men. 1 Cor.10:33.
Paul says that he was the chief of all sinners. 1 Tim.1:15.
He who commits sin is of the devil. Children of God cannot sin. 1 Jn.3:8-10.
Paul said that Jesus is the judge. 2 Tim.4:1.
Paul said that God is the judge. Heb.12:23.
Paul said that the saints would judge. 1 Cor.6:2.
Paul said that Jesus was the Son of God. Rom.1:3,4.
Paul said that Jesus was just a man. Heb.7:24.
Do not boast. Lk.18:14.
Do not be proud. Rom.11:20; 1 Pet. 5:5.
Paul proudly boasts. 2 Cor.11:16-18; Gal.2:9-11.
Jesus commends the church at Ephesus for discerning the lying apostles. Rev. 2:1,2.
Paul was the apostle to Ephesus. Eph.1:1.


I'll be back once the storm is brewing.

[Zephyr]

Weird, could have sworn I'd voted on the poll before, I guess not.

Atheist

[IDon'tLikeUsernames]

(okay, get ready for this) I'm Trinitarian Pentecostal Protestant Christian. Haha, I just wanted to say that, because the name is long. Anyway, I have no problem with people from other religions, or even those who don't have a religion at all. I just don't like when people criticize religion just for the sake of making other people feel bad and to make themselves feel superior. I mean, it's good to raise some negative points so that the mind remains broad and educated, but please, do this in a way that doesn't make it seem as though it's wrong for a person to believe in what they believe in. It isn't right to say "You shouldn't believe in Christ" or "Wicca is the devil's work". That's my belief anyway.

[Sage]

(okay, get ready for this) I'm Trinitarian Pentecostal Protestant Christian. Haha, I just wanted to say that, because the name is long. Anyway, I have no problem with people from other religions, or even those who don't have a religion at all. I just don't like when people criticize religion just for the sake of making other people feel bad and to make themselves feel superior. I mean, it's good to raise some negative points so that the mind remains broad and educated, but please, do this in a way that doesn't make it seem as though it's wrong for a person to believe in what they believe in. It isn't right to say "You shouldn't believe in Christ" or "Wicca is the devil's work". That's my belief anyway.

What do you believe happens to people who hold different religious beliefs than you when they die?

[Obscene Eyedeas]

Anyway, I have no problem with people from other religions, or even those who don't have a religion at all. I just don't like when people criticize religion just for the sake of making other people feel bad and to make themselves feel superior.

People who feel this way should avoid debates and if they don't then it's their own fault. Also many people don't debate religion to feel superior many just feel it is insane to believe in something you really know nothing about. In fact very few religious people where I live know much about their religion. It is about examination and making an informed decision. There will be trolls and exceptions but you should just go with the flow.

I mean, it's good to raise some negative points so that the mind remains broad and educated, but please, do this in a way that doesn't make it seem as though it's wrong for a person to believe in what they believe in.

If people refuse to answer or debate points then they will not be educated and the truth is people will get sick of them and fail to take them seriously. As it becomes obvious that they will not listen and expand their knowledge.

It isn't right to say "You shouldn't believe in Christ" or "Wicca is the devil's work". That's my belief anyway.

That is why it is necessary to sometimes be extremely blunt with these people to the point where they feel insulted and persecuted because then they will get in a huff and leave or actually start debating the points and have their arguments destroyed for being ignorant.

[IDon'tLikeUsernames]

I have no problem with debating religion. I'm not saying that you shouldn't criticize religion. I'm say that you shouldn't do it to pick on people. I think that critisizing religion is a great way to learn and really look at what what you believe in. I acknowledge that many don't do it to be mean, but some people do, and that's what I'm against. Also, to Sage, that's a good question. I personally believe that it would be between the person and God, and that it would be wrong for me to judge their fate.

[Obscene Eyedeas]

I have no problem with debating religion. I'm not saying that you shouldn't criticize religion. I'm say that you shouldn't do it to pick on people.

Religion is meant to be a personal thing when you debate it you are debating with the person about their beliefs. If they feel picked on then they shouldn't debate. Oftentimes debates will disagree with a persons beliefs and this is the time when most often people feel picked on.

I think that critisizing religion is a great way to learn and really look at what what you believe in. I acknowledge that many don't do it to be mean, but some people do, and that's what I'm against.

If you were to provide samples of this then you can debate it, however without proof you really can't support your point. Although you must take into account that there are trolls in everything and when people insist on debating by repetition of refuted points people will get annoyed and focus on them.

[Sage]

Also, to Sage, that's a good question. I personally believe that it would be between the person and God, and that it would be wrong for me to judge their fate.

That's a non-answer. I didn't ask you to judge anyone. I'm just saying that in your mythology there is a fairly unpleasant realm called Hell and I would think that, being an adherent to your mythology, you would have some understanding of what will and will not get you sent there.

But to repeat myself: That's a non-answer.

[IDon'tLikeUsernames]

To Sage, I believe that while a person of a religion that is not the one I believe in will not go to Heaven right away, I don't believe that they would go to Hell immediately either. It is said that to enter Heaven, you would have to live by the faith of God, but you also must be a good person. Also, I believe that when you die, God still weighs your good deeds and your bad deeds to see whether or not you should be allowed into Heaven, regardless of christianity, so a good person who believes in something else would still have a chance of going into heaven.

And to Obscene Eyedeas, I agree. If a person wants to debate, they shouldn't feel threatened when their ideas and points are put down. And it's true that I can't do anything about people who argue to feel better than other people. I just wanted to state my opinion. My friends and I were talking about different religions and one of them brought up the fact that they didn't understand hijaabs. My other friend (who's a muslim) told her that it represented modesty. The first friend then told her, "A boy wouldn't hit on you just because your hair is showing." Both of them then proceeded to debate all the things that a hijaab represents. This is a good debate. A bad debate was with my friend and another person who called her close-minded for wearing a hijaab. That person only meant to critisize and insult her and that's what I find wrong. They weren't trying to get a point across.

[Obscene Eyedeas]

to Obscene Eyedeas, I agree. If a person wants to debate, they shouldn't feel threatened when their ideas and points are put down. And it's true that I can't do anything about people who argue to feel better than other people. I just wanted to state my opinion. My friends and I were talking about different religions and one of them brought up the fact that they didn't understand hijaabs. My other friend (who's a muslim) told her that it represented modesty. The first friend then told her, "A boy wouldn't hit on you just because your hair is showing." Both of them then proceeded to debate all the things that a hijaab represents. This is a good debate. A bad debate was with my friend and another person who called her close-minded for wearing a hijaab. That person only meant to critisize and insult her and that's what I find wrong. They weren't trying to get a point across.

That isn't debating, just ignorance. It is only to insult as they know it will annoy or upset the girl. That is something that exists regardless of religion, it will happen for anything that makes a person different. That is mere ignorance which should not be equated with debaters, however one will admit some debaters are ignorant on their own religion and others. Sometimes it's about stroking their ego sometimes it is because they just dislike a person it is rarely actually to do with religion.

[IDon'tLikeUsernames]

That's what I'm saying.

[Continuum]

I have no problem with debating religion. I'm not saying that you shouldn't criticize religion. I'm say that you shouldn't do it to pick on people.

They aren't. They're underlining all the flaws and negative aspects of religion, in which you people should be aware of, being members of that faith. People shouldn't take it as picking on people and getting all butthurt because of it.

[Death]

To Sage, I believe that while a person of a religion that is not the one I believe in will not go to Heaven right away, I don't believe that they would go to Hell immediately either. It is said that to enter Heaven, you would have to live by the faith of God, but you also must be a good person. Also, I believe that when you die, God still weighs your good deeds and your bad deeds to see whether or not you should be allowed into Heaven, regardless of christianity, so a good person who believes in something else would still have a chance of going into heaven.

So you believe that your religious views or lack thereof have no influence on your chances of getting to Heaven?

And what about Hell? Do you believe those who aren't deemed worthy to be in God's kingdom are made to roast in a plane of brimstone and fire for all eternity?

[deadpie]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkxz4jSOnV1qzkz8s.jpg

Apparently judgement day is quite soon. This month actually. It says so on this (http://www.wecanknow.com/) website. Someone on tumblr wrote in response -

Lately I have been observing this running theme with billboards paid for by churches, with the underlying message of: “The world is coming to an end, you sinners aren’t going to heaven, unless you go to church and become saved.”

Well I’ll pack my swimsuit and sunscreen. Because if hell is the best reason why people should turn their life over to a Christian God so they can be one of the few chosen to be saved by ‘the coming’…

Then you must be blind to war, hunger, hate and corrupted power. Because to me that is hell happening right here, right now and no amount of scare tactics will ever change my mind.

[Magus]

image (http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkxz4jSOnV1qzkz8s.jpg)

Apparently judgement day is quite soon. This month actually. It says so on this (http://www.wecanknow.com/) website.

I was reading that website while listening to this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD3VsesSBsw).

:eek: Man, I need to repent nao! Or I will never go to heaven!

[Continuum]

image (http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkxz4jSOnV1qzkz8s.jpg)

Apparently judgement day is quite soon. This month actually. It says so on this (http://www.wecanknow.com/) website. Someone on tumblr wrote in response -


What the fuck. I mean, even here it's everywhere. I'm beginning to think this is the Christian version of the Mayan Eschaton.

I'll be counting on this date. I've been a nice Christian, really. :yes:

[Death]

What the fuck. I mean, even here it's everywhere. I'm beginning to think this is the Christian version of the Mayan Eschaton.

I'll be counting on this date. I've been a nice Christian, really. :yes:

I wonder what date they'll give next after Jesus doesn't arrive on this one.

[Jess]

image (http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkxz4jSOnV1qzkz8s.jpg)

Apparently judgement day is quite soon. This month actually. It says so on this (http://www.wecanknow.com/) website. Someone on tumblr wrote in response -

Lately I have been observing this running theme with billboards paid for by churches, with the underlying message of: “The world is coming to an end, you sinners aren’t going to heaven, unless you go to church and become saved.”

Well I’ll pack my swimsuit and sunscreen. Because if hell is the best reason why people should turn their life over to a Christian God so they can be one of the few chosen to be saved by ‘the coming’…

Then you must be blind to war, hunger, hate and corrupted power. Because to me that is hell happening right here, right now and no amount of scare tactics will ever change my mind.

wow never saw anything so stupid in my life. I'll also be wondering, like Death, what date they will give next when Jesus doesn't appear on May 21

[broseph92]

Catholic ftw!

[Continuum]

Catholic ftw!

What a sensible and meaningful post.

[broseph92]

^ seriously get off my dick dude. You always have something to say every time I post

[Continuum]

^ seriously get off my dick dude. You always have something to say every time I post

Why shouldn't I? This is the ROTW. If you cannot create anything sensible, in any way, or cannot defend your own propositions, I will never lose the right to bash.

[broseph92]

Why shouldn't I? This is the ROTW. If you cannot create anything sensible, in any way, or cannot defend your own propositions, I will never lose the right to bash.

you probably just have a crush on me

[Magus]

you probably just have a crush on me
Dude, this is ROTW. If you don't want to post here, don't. What you have just posted now is a considered a spam as well as an attack.

[Peace God]

^ seriously get off my dick dude. You always have something to say every time I post

Woah, that's wierd because you always have nothing to say every time you post.

VABSoHYQr6k

[Continuum]

you probably just have a crush on me

That's what you think? Seriously?

I wouldn't imagine people like you would even get crushes at all.

[broseph92]

Woah, that's wierd because you always have nothing to say every time you post.

VABSoHYQr6k

thats extremely offensive. you should be banned for that

[Noooooooooo]

Apparently judgement day is quite soon. This month actually. It says so on this (http://www.wecanknow.com/) website. Someone on tumblr wrote in response -

Lately I have been observing this running theme with billboards paid for by churches, with the underlying message of: “The world is coming to an end, you sinners aren’t going to heaven, unless you go to church and become saved.”

Well I’ll pack my swimsuit and sunscreen. Because if hell is the best reason why people should turn their life over to a Christian God so they can be one of the few chosen to be saved by ‘the coming’…

Then you must be blind to war, hunger, hate and corrupted power. Because to me that is hell happening right here, right now and no amount of scare tactics will ever change my mind.

"I am looking for individuals who believe the rapture is May 21, or less than two weeks away. I am about to be homeless, totally broke and in debt, and trying to feed my family and put a roof over their heads. I see this as an opportunity for those who no longer need earthly possessions to furnish the unfortunate like myself with survival necessities. I hope you understand my desire for a certain level of discretion and anonymity, at least until I find that you are truly interested in helping me. To be clear, this is a solicitation for money, housing, vehicles, property, assets, and anything useful that will help me afford the things I need to take care of my family. This will be important even for just the next two weeks, or beyond that as well."

[deadpie]

you probably just have a crush on me

Why are you even posting in this thread? You're not debating, but just saying random useless stuff that's going nowhere.

[Jess]

Catholic ftw!


and what's so great about that?

[deadpie]

http://imageshack.us/m/146/3594/1305319589893.png

Anyone willing to prove me wrong?

[Noooooooooo]

image (http://imageshack.us/m/146/3594/1305319589893.png)

Anyone willing to prove me wrong?


Well said.
I would like to add that religion is like a dick.
It's fine to have one.
It's fine to be proud of it.
But please dont whip it out in public and start waving it around.
Also, please don't try to shove it down childrens throats.

[iangillan]

Well said.
I would like to add that religion is like a dick.
It's fine to have one.
It's fine to be proud of it.
But please dont whip it out in public and start waving it around.
Also, please don't try to shove it down childrens throats.

It`s Funny,but it`s True.
Great Comparison.

[Sith Lord 13]

image (http://imageshack.us/m/146/3594/1305319589893.png)

Anyone willing to prove me wrong?

If we substitute Intelligent Design for creationism: (If you refuse to allow the substitution then I call strawman, as the people who still believe in creationism are few, far between, and often mentally ill)

1)It's a supplement to the best scientific explanations. It's a search for more, to explain away the seeming inconsistencies in certain theories.

2) The belief in and of itself is not dangerous, though some have corrupted certain teachings.

3) Again, it's a gap filling theory, based on logical jumps, the way most scientific theories start.

4) No, it's supplemental to all known scientific theories.

5) How? For those who believe in it, it's either had no more affect than any other scientific theory or given people hope that there's something greater out there.

6) Saying that statistical odd currently projected by science occurred naturally seems less logical than intelligent design for me.

7) No, it's looking for the most reasonable explanation, It can support certain beliefs but does not intrinsically do so, It stays well grounded in reality, and is supported by logic and reason.

[green]

I hate my religion and any religion that is lead by insane fanatics, I am a follower of Catholicism, but I do not have the same views on science and gays as others do. I am also a member of YACHT which is a method of thinking and philosophy that melds with my religion perfectly.

Religion has basicly been destroyed by man because everyone wants to twist it so that they have an excuse for ignorance, discrimination and war. If we all followed the laws set down by religions we would mostly be happy.

The bible is flawed, thats all I have to say. I dont view the bible as my holy book, I view art as my holy book. The bible contradicts itself, it has been rewritten by so many people that it barely resembles the beautiful book that it is supposed to be and it has once again been twisted for personal gain.

So many people mis interprate religion, this is what makes it a terrible thing, I still follow my religion but I incorprate all religions to myself. I am catholic but i also follow teachings of buddha and other religious figures.

So religion is not always bad. its the fanatics who ruin it for everyone

[deadpie]

1)It's a supplement to the best scientific explanations. It's a search for more, to explain away the seeming inconsistencies in certain theories.

More like intellectual laziness because God is the easy answer to questions ten times as complicated.

2) The belief in and of itself is not dangerous, though some have corrupted certain teachings.

For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. Hebrews 9:13-14, 22

Like many other passages, God does demand people to kill animals and people at times. People can read this and decide to kill. The belief can cause dangerous thoughts. And of course everyone will say "that's a misinterpretation" as their lame ass excuse for bloodshed. Well, if you add up the many types of copies and versions of The Bible, then even certain Christians also are misinterpreter it all wrong. So don't tell me I'm misinterpreter things, you.... misinterpretors.

3) Again, it's a gap filling theory, based on logical jumps, the way most scientific theories start.

Religion isn't a damn theory, it's a story of morals and lessons. And like I also said before, intellectual laziness. I could say those two words all day.

4) No, it's supplemental to all known scientific theories.

The Bible isn't a reliable resource for science. I mean come on. The Bible preaches that insanity is caused by demons, which would mean that demons are causing my thoughts. Also, it says faith is the cure to illness. We all know that's bullshit sense we have Christians suffering from incurable diseases daily.

According to The Bible it is God who causes rain by opening some windows from heaven.

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. (Genesis 7:11 (They have good slurpees) )

5) How? For those who believe in it, it's either had no more affect than any other scientific theory or given people hope that there's something greater out there.

It's also caused those two words I've said before a few times and people to not look for logical answers but moreso believe in idiotic fairy tales.

6) Saying that statistical odd currently projected by science occurred naturally seems less logical than intelligent design for me.

LOLWAT. Man made out of dirt or man evolve from ape. Which one sounds more batshit crazy? Which one has more evidence to prove the other wrong?

People don't think about other reasons when they have religion there. They don't need any other answer no matter how much better supported or weak it is. That's their answer end of story. It's closed mindedness at its best.

7) No, it's looking for the most reasonable explanation, It can support certain beliefs but does not intrinsically do so, It stays well grounded in reality, and is supported by logic and reason.

It's not logic and I don't see any clear reason to most of the ideas in religious scripture. The morals and such don't really mean anything special to me. Religion is not realistic. Faith isn't realistic. Faith is instinct. Instinct can be dangerous.

Oh hell no religion doesn't look for the most reasonable explanation. Scientists haven't quit doing what they do looking for answers. They sound more willing to look for different answers and explanations than scriptures that ended a damn long time ago. Science looks for the most reasonable answer to everything, not religion. Religion slaps on some weird thought that I would probably think of if I was on peyote right now. They base things off of paranormal events and magic, which are both bullshit.

[Joethegreat1]

Creationism is not a valid theory. There is simply to much evidence that we evolved from apes, if not a distant ancestor that split into apes and eventual humans. But evolution does not contradict intelligent design. Intelligent design is but one reason to explain evolution and why we are so complicated creatures. The first part of the Bible, especially the book of Genesis, should not be taken completely literally. The account of creation in the book of Genesis could never have happened, as there is proof that the Universe is already several billion years old. Actually the early fathers of the Catholic church taught that the Genesis creation narrative was to be treated as an allegory, and they believed that natural organisms are unstable and capricious. Creationism only really started when the protestant reformation started.

One misconception is that Religion and Science do not mix, that they are polar opposites. While in some religions this is true, it is not true for Catholicism. While there may have been some times in the past where they condemned scientific beliefs (Galileo Galilei is a common example) the Church has mended its ways and taught that past condemnations were not right, and were a result of human error and straying from the true teachings of the church. In fact the Catechism of the Catholic church asserts that "Methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things the of the faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are."

[anonymous.john]

To Sage, I believe that while a person of a religion that is not the one I believe in will not go to Heaven right away, I don't believe that they would go to Hell immediately either. It is said that to enter Heaven, you would have to live by the faith of God, but you also must be a good person. Also, I believe that when you die, God still weighs your good deeds and your bad deeds to see whether or not you should be allowed into Heaven, regardless of christianity, so a good person who believes in something else would still have a chance of going into heaven.

I've said it once and I'll say it now: You have a useless God that only serves the purpose of a divine comfort-cushion so that there's the illusion of cosmic justice in this world. Life isn't fair. Your God does not matter if believing in him is not one of the qualifications for getting into heaven.

[Opeaceman]

“Religion or clan”
A religion seems to be an older and or bigger version of clans.
Most recent clans are fart-offs of Christianity, Buddhism and much others.
Big ones like Christianity seem ok but as for others that say can harm others I find offensive at heart.
So can we really label some of these “religions”

-EVERYTHING IS EXACTLY WORDED THE WAY I LOOK A THINGS-

[BFG9001]

God is an excuse that doen't work.

Like, "My dog ate my homework!"

[The light]

i was raised as a catholic, not stirct but just church at christmas and easter. when i was about 13 i heared the song King without a crown by matisyahu(listen to this song!) and it has changed my life forever i stared praying more and really thinking about what and who God is i rejected my christian beliefs about the trinity and i got into judaisms veiw of God i read the bible A LOT. then when i was 15 our family went to india i visted a mosque, and got really interested in Islam. when i got back to australia i went to the mosque in perth and conveted a few weeks before i turned 16 i was a muslim for a year and deeply in my faith. So what do i belive now well i practice catholosim so i can support my Mum as my Dad died a few months ago. but i belive that FAITH IS ALL THAT MATTERS faith in god when all religions recognise that is true then we will have peace.

[Perseus]

i was raised as a catholic, not stirct but just church at christmas and easter. when i was about 13 i heared the song King without a crown by matisyahu(listen to this song!) and it has changed my life forever i stared praying more and really thinking about what and who God is i rejected my christian beliefs about the trinity and i got into judaisms veiw of God i read the bible A LOT. then when i was 15 our family went to india i visted a mosque, and got really interested in Islam. when i got back to australia i went to the mosque in perth and conveted a few weeks before i turned 16 i was a muslim for a year and deeply in my faith. So what do i belive now well i practice catholosim so i can support my Mum as my Dad died a few months ago. but i belive that FAITH IS ALL THAT MATTERS faith in god when all religions recognise that is true then we will have peace.

So... you're a Christian Jew Muslim?

[Death]

i was raised as a catholic, not stirct but just church at christmas and easter. when i was about 13 i heared the song King without a crown by matisyahu(listen to this song!) and it has changed my life forever i stared praying more and really thinking about what and who God is i rejected my christian beliefs about the trinity and i got into judaisms veiw of God i read the bible A LOT. then when i was 15 our family went to india i visted a mosque, and got really interested in Islam. when i got back to australia i went to the mosque in perth and conveted a few weeks before i turned 16 i was a muslim for a year and deeply in my faith. So what do i belive now well i practice catholosim so i can support my Mum as my Dad died a few months ago. but i belive that FAITH IS ALL THAT MATTERS faith in god when all religions recognise that is true then we will have peace.

That's not a good thing. By the sounds of it, you follow anything you're subjected to. And I don't know if you've noticed, but teachings from the three different monotheistic religions are going to contradict each other.

They also do that within themselves.

And if you really think you need religion to achieve peace, then your morality is questionable. Do you really believe that faith (i.e. accepting things without any evidence which you appeared to have done not once, but thrice) is the only thing that matters?

[wally]

roman catholic over here

[Death]

roman catholic over here

Doesn't the bible's Decalogue say "thou shalt not kill"?

[wally]

Doesn't the bible's Decalogue say "thou shalt not kill"?

if i'm not mistaken, that has nothing to do with this thread

[Death]

if i'm not mistaken, that has nothing to do with this thread

How do you know that it's not going to have anything to do with this thread?

BTW, way to go to avoid my next argument. But then I'm not surprised.

[Korashk]

Doesn't the bible's Decalogue say "thou shalt not kill"?
From what I've heard, "thou shalt not murder" is a more accurate translation.

[Death]

From what I've heard, "thou shalt not murder" is a more accurate translation.

And from what I've heard, it is not.

[Korashk]

And from what I've heard, it is not.
Okay then, what have you heard? Because the original hebrew of that commandment contains this: רָצַח, which is translated as ratsach, which is commonly used to describe the act of murder. I'm no linguist, but I'm inclined to take the word of those who are in this regard.

[Death]

Okay then, what have you heard?

Something which I can only presume was inaccurate or highly opinionated.

Because the original hebrew of that commandment contains this: רָצַח, which is translated as ratsach, which is commonly used to describe the act of murder. I'm no linguist, but I'm inclined to take the word of those who are in this regard.

A fair point, but it doesn't mean that its reference to murder is confirmed since some true meaning can always be lost in translation. As such, the lines between "murder" (which is subjective anyway) and "kill" will probably get quite blurry.

[aussiebunnie]

Due to schooling I follow Christianity. Isn't it funny how religion is one of those things that you really don't have a choice in choosing. For example you usually believe in what your parents believe in (unless you change religions or go emo).

[Genghis Khan]

Isn't it funny how religion is one of those things that you really don't have a choice in choosing. For example you usually believe in what your parents believe in (unless you change religions or go emo).

That is usually the case, but that doesn't prevent you from choosing what you wish.

[Apparitions]

Isn't it funny how religion is one of those things that you really don't have a choice in choosing.
The word 'brainwashing' comes to mind...

[aussiebunnie]

That is usually the case, but that doesn't prevent you from choosing what you wish.

True, but you usually have to be motivated to choose. For example you would need to go read the Bible or go do some research to shift from say Islam to Christianity. Its alot of work.

[embers]

True, but you usually have to be motivated to choose. For example you would need to go read the Bible or go do some research to shift from say Islam to Christianity. Its alot of work.

The fact that people can do this and actively change their beliefs just shows that there is no solidarity in these religions.

[Peace God]

Due to schooling I follow Christianity. Isn't it funny how religion is one of those things that you really don't have a choice in choosing. For example you usually believe in what your parents believe in (unless you change religions or go emo).
..wtf?

[RoseyCadaver]

Agnostic,proud of it.

[aussiebunnie]

..wtf?

What was confusing in what I said?

[Death]

What was confusing in what I said?

You always have a choice about which religion you believe in. Yes, I know that malcontents may try to enforce their own views onto you, but you still decide for yourself whether or not you believe it or believe (or disbelieve) what you damn well want to.

[aussiebunnie]

You always have a choice about which religion you believe in. Yes, I know that malcontents may try to enforce their own views onto you, but you still decide for yourself whether or not you believe it or believe (or disbelieve) what you damn well want to.

The point I was making was that the choice is based on someones motivation to want to change their religions. Not that there's an absentia of free choice. Learn to interpret correctly.

[Death]

The point I was making was that the choice is based on someones motivation to want to change their religions.

I.E. Brain washing. But an intelligent person can see through that.

Not that there's an absentia of free choice. Learn to interpret correctly.

Learn to organise and present your aguments correctly. Let's be honest, that's not exactly your strong point, is it?

[aussiebunnie]

I.E. Brain washing. But an intelligent person can see through that.



Learn to organise and present your aguments correctly. Let's be honest, that's not exactly your strong point, is it?

It does not equate to brain washing. That is like saying that because the Government is brainwashing you because they are in charge. That's like saying your friends at school are brainwashing you. Before you are 18 and living under your parents roof they have the right to do whatever they wish in terms of your upbringing. If you don't like it when your 12-15, leave home and live in the streets.

In a recent census in the UK 60% of teens said they did not believe in God whereas 40% of older people said they did. Which means those 60% (who did not believe) would be living with parents 60% (who did believe). They were not brain washed. The point was that the 60% who did not believe wouldn't care what religion there was. They don't believe in God. Therefore they will not change to another religion. That was the point I was making, which obviously you do not get.

And learn to spell. "Arguments".

[Spock]

why isnt catholic on there? its a common religion

[Sage]

why isnt catholic on there?

It is.

[Sith Lord 13]

why isnt catholic on there? its a common religion

Catholicism is a form of Christianity.

[Genghis Khan]

why isnt catholic on there? its a common religion

You can specify which sect of Christianity you're in next to where it says 'Christianity (please specify)'.

[Death]

It does not equate to brain washing.

Then why do children tend to follow the religion of their parents, sometimes without question even where logic would have a lot of question?

That is like saying that because the Government is brainwashing you because they are in charge.

What? That's got nothing to do with this.

That's like saying your friends at school are brainwashing you.

:yawn:

You haven't even explained how they are brainwashing you.

Before you are 18 and living under your parents roof they have the right to do whatever they wish in terms of your upbringing. If you don't like it when your 12-15, leave home and live in the streets.

So they should be able to force you to follow a religion? Is that really right? I don't care if it's their child, there are certain liberties to which everyone should be entitled. Freedom of religion (or lack thereof) is one of them. Where do you draw the line between what a parent and their authority can do and what they can't?

In a recent census in the UK 60% of teens said they did not believe in God whereas 40% of older people said they did. Which means those 60% (who did not believe) would be living with parents 60% (who did believe).

They were either rebelling or were thinking for themselves, because they can. But are you seriously telling me that parents' influence will not make more children believe in God than they would otherwise?

They were not brain washed. The point was that the 60% who did not believe wouldn't care what religion there was. They don't believe in God. Therefore they will not change to another religion. That was the point I was making, which obviously you do not get.

Does not agree with =/= does not get, so I suggest you think of better ways of arguing since I find it difficult to actually classify this as an 'argument'.

And learn to spell. "Arguments".

Hahaha. Not only was that only a typographical error which you're questioning my ability over, but I also remember you putting "parents" instead of "parents'" (i.e. with an apostrophy at the end) when you were talking about a possesive and a plural. Suffice to say, you are just painting yourself as an idiot so I'd stop with your hypocrisy if I were you.

[Neverender]

why isnt catholic on there? its a common religion

Facepalm. Last time I checked Catholics were christians. Did I miss the memo?

[Peace God]

What was confusing in what I said?
...
Due to schooling I follow Christianity. Isn't it funny how religion is one of those things that you really don't have a choice in choosing. For example you usually believe in what your parents believe in (unless you change religions or go emo).
What happened to thinking for ourselves?

[aussiebunnie]

Then why do children tend to follow the religion of their parents, sometimes without question even where logic would have a lot of question?



What? That's got nothing to do with this.



:yawn:

You haven't even explained how they are brainwashing you.



So they should be able to force you to follow a religion? Is that really right? I don't care if it's their child, there are certain liberties to which everyone should be entitled. Freedom of religion (or lack thereof) is one of them. Where do you draw the line between what a parent and their authority can do and what they can't?



They were either rebelling or were thinking for themselves, because they can. But are you seriously telling me that parents' influence will not make more children believe in God than they would otherwise?



Does not agree with =/= does not get, so I suggest you think of better ways of arguing since I find it difficult to actually classify this as an 'argument'.



Hahaha. Not only was that only a typographical error which you're questioning my ability over, but I also remember you putting "parents" instead of "parents'" (i.e. with an apostrophy at the end) when you were talking about a possesive and a plural. Suffice to say, you are just painting yourself as an idiot so I'd stop with your hypocrisy if I were you.


I find it interesting that you need to resort to personal insults to debate your point.

A parent has an absolute right to choose your religion for you. Just as they have an absolute right to choose your school for you, choose what health care you should get, choose what clothing you should wear when you are under 10. Until you reach the age you can think for yourself (the law permits this as being 18). If we say a young person should not be brain washed, then it would be the same as taking every single right that a parent has to make a decision for them.

I see parents as agents with ostensible authority to act for the child. They have a fiduciary duty to act with the proscription of your health and well-being. Choosing your religion falls within that proscription.

[Apparitions]

I find it interesting that you need to resort to personal insults to debate your point.

A parent has an absolute right to choose your religion for you. Just as they have an absolute right to choose your school for you, choose what health care you should get, choose what clothing you should wear when you are under 10. Until you reach the age you can think for yourself (the law permits this as being 18). If we say a young person should not be brain washed, then it would be the same as taking every single right that a parent has to make a decision for them.

I see parents as agents with ostensible authority to act for the child. They have a fiduciary duty to act with the proscription of your health and well-being. Choosing your religion falls within that proscription.
So you say that you think it is a good thing that parents brainwash their children (not always consciously, might I add - they are just doing what their parents have done etc)? There was me thinking that we were in the 21st Century. Brainwashing young children about your religion is a despicable, awful thing to do in this day and age IMHO. It makes children mindless zombie-like people who will believe any bullshit their parents have told them. Of course, young children aren't going to question what their parents tell them about religion, which is how religion is still strong (unfortunately) today. One of the greatest things about Western, civilised society is that people are supposedly free to believe what they want and can make their own decisions on things such as religion. I am amazed that God botherers are still free to shove their silly beliefs down children's throats and use them as a way of controlling children (i.e. "do what I tell you or I'll tell God to make you burn in hell" - extreme but realistic example), Society will never progress until religious indoctrination stops happening.

[aussiebunnie]

extreme but realistic example), Society will never progress until religious indoctrination stops happening.

So by your theory, if religion is brainwashing, then you would not permit children to hang out with friends anymore. Friends have more influence of children (Smoking, drinking, drugs) than religion does. How your friends behave and think affects how you would normally think. You cannot say that "Religion" is evil but assent to other forms of social development which you consider "brainwashing".

[Spock]

well iam not in to the the hardcore religion things like most ppl are but iam Roman Catholic and i am not sure how the christian and Catholics are alike. i know it has to do with beliving in one god i think.

[Genghis Khan]

A parent has an absolute right to choose your religion for you. Just as they have an absolute right to choose your school for you, choose what health care you should get, choose what clothing you should wear when you are under 10.

While they're at it, can they also choose if you're going to be a child that believes in pro-life or pro-choice? Can they also impose their political beliefs on you? Comparing religion to education, healthcare and other necessities is nonsensical because religion itself is a personal thing, there is no real logic in it, as there is in school (i.e. you go to school, you get a good education and acquire some skills that will help you to earn a living later on in life), this is what is best for you, and it is pretty much a fact. Religion is not a fact, it isn't even an opinion, it's a belief system. Would you agree that parents can enforce their opinions on their child as they can force
a belief system as such?

Until you reach the age you can think for yourself (the law permits this as being 18). If we say a young person should not be brain washed, then it would be the same as taking every single right that a parent has to make a decision for them.

What? Why? Brainwashing isn't a right. Childhood indoctrination is not a privilege.

I see parents as agents with ostensible authority to act for the child. They have a fiduciary duty to act with the proscription of your health and well-being. Choosing your religion falls within that proscription.

Again, religion has nothing to do with your health and well being, if I don't accept a certain religion does that make me susceptible to cancer? Does it suddenly make me a bad person? No. It just means I'm now believing in the same thing my parents do which no one has any good reason to believe in anymore.

Another quick point I'd like to add is you mentioned that 'Friends have more influence of children (Smoking, drinking, drugs) than religion does'. That, is social influence. We're talking about religious indoctrination. When you're out with friends, they're not necessarily imposing it on you, you'd probably be pressurized to do it because you don't want to feel left out, but this isn't the same as threatening your child with torture and damnation if they refuse to conform with their beliefs.

[aussiebunnie]

While they're at it, can they also choose if you're going to be a child that believes in pro-life or pro-choice? Can they also impose their political beliefs on you? Comparing religion to education, healthcare and other necessities is nonsensical because religion itself is a personal thing, there is no real logic in it, as there is in school (i.e. you go to school, you get a good education and acquire some skills that will help you to earn a living later on in life), this is what is best for you, and it is pretty much a fact. Religion is not a fact, it isn't even an opinion, it's a belief system. Would you agree that parents can enforce their opinions on their child as they can force
a belief system as such?



What? Why? Brainwashing isn't a right. Childhood indoctrination is not a privilege.



Again, religion has nothing to do with your health and well being, if I don't accept a certain religion does that make me susceptible to cancer? Does it suddenly make me a bad person? No. It just means I'm now believing in the same thing my parents do which no one has any good reason to believe in anymore.

Another quick point I'd like to add is you mentioned that 'Friends have more influence of children (Smoking, drinking, drugs) than religion does'. That, is social influence. We're talking about religious indoctrination. When you're out with friends, they're not necessarily imposing it on you, you'd probably be pressurized to do it because you don't want to feel left out, but this isn't the same as threatening your child with torture and damnation if they refuse to conform with their beliefs.


I think you are taking the definition of religion in an extreme case where parents force children to believe everything they want. Perhaps in countries where there is a strict set of beliefs one has to believe in. In a western family, for example lets take mine for example, my parents believe in God and therefore I believe in God. I probably went to church about 5 times in my life. I choose to be religious but my parents have never forced me.

Even the law unequivocally has said that a parent has the right to choose the religion for the child. This is mentioned in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child which most countries have ratified to. The law goes to further say where two parents (who have separated) have different religions the child should be exposed to both religions till he gets to an age where he can choose which one he prefers. The definition of well being includes religion, and since well being is the parents responsibility, the parent should have the right to expose the child to whatever religion they wish to.

[Genghis Khan]

I think you are taking the definition of religion in an extreme case where parents force children to believe everything they want. Perhaps in countries where there is a strict set of beliefs one has to believe in. In a western family, for example lets take mine for example, my parents believe in God and therefore I believe in God. I probably went to church about 5 times in my life. I choose to be religious but my parents have never forced me.

Oh sure. You can expose the child to your religion and raise them with those values, but would you then agree that the child has the right to reject it any time it wants?

The definition of well being includes religion, and since well being is the parents responsibility, the parent should have the right to expose the child to whatever religion they wish to.

I don't know where this definition is from, but it's wrong. Well being does not necessarily require religion.

[aussiebunnie]

Oh sure. You can expose the child to your religion and raise them with those values, but would you then agree that the child has the right to reject it any time it wants?



I don't know where this definition is from, but it's wrong. Well being does not necessarily require religion.

If a child wishes to reject the religion, then fine. I am all for that. He or she has that right. But don't tell me that a parent cannot expose a child to a religion he or she wishes to. I would go as far as saying that if a parent cannot choose their kids religion, that is not a free and democratic society. That undermines the Constitutional Guarantee of "Freedom of expression".

The definition is from the Supreme Court, Family Court and the United Nations which has been accepted in countries such as UK, NZ, AUS, and Canada.

[Harlequin]

Mormon

[Death]

I find it interesting that you need to resort to personal insults to debate your point.

Quote it, liar. I dare you.

A parent has an absolute right to choose your religion for you.

They have an absolute right to decide what you believe in your head? Do they have a right to choose your sexuality? Do they have a right to choose what clothes you wear even if they are inappropiate for today's age or are for the wrong gender and the child doesn't wish to draw unwanted attention? Does the parent have the right to dominate everything about the child's life and not leave any decisions to them? Hell, do they have the right to force all babies to permanently lose their foreskin because of "religion"? Honsetly, never before have I met such a radical authoritarian. It makes me wonder if you're just being sarcastic.

Just as they have an absolute right to choose your school for you, choose what health care you should get, choose what clothing you should wear when you are under 10.

I've already refuted this, see above.

Until you reach the age you can think for yourself (the law permits this as being 18). If we say a young person should not be brain washed, then it would be the same as taking every single right that a parent has to make a decision for them.

It doesn't look like you've presevered the child's rights. What else don't the children have rights to? Freedom of abuse? Should parents be allowed to physically assault (as an example) their children now?

I see parents as agents with ostensible authority to act for the child. They have a fiduciary duty to act with the proscription of your health and well-being. Choosing your religion falls within that proscription.

Religion and welfare is completely different. You don't need religion in order to have a good life. Religion is a personal thing which you decide to follow (and whichever one you decide) if you should so desire. There is no reason why a parent should dominate that. It would be like parents forcing their children to never masturbate even when in privacy or to only be friends with the opposite gender in case they "turn gay" (yes, some people really are this stupid). Never before have I been so baffled by a responce in VT.

So by your theory, if religion is brainwashing, then you would not permit children to hang out with friends anymore.

No. Obviously you know absolutely nothing about me or what I stand for. How the fuck does the mere act of hanging out with friends even remotely equate to brainwashing in the same sense of forcing a child to follow a specific religion? Going by your logic, would you discipline your child if they said an Islamic prayer when they were supposed to be Christian? I sure hope not.

Friends have more influence of children (Smoking, drinking, drugs) than religion does.

Except friends' "influences" are different from brainwashing in that they happen at a time when you are capable of thinking of yourself and are aware of the dangers and real friends will not force you into anything harmful. The defintion of friends alone probably moots your point.

How your friends behave and think affects how you would normally think. You cannot say that "Religion" is evil but assent to other forms of social development which you consider "brainwashing".

I didn't say religion is evil. Learn to read.

well iam not in to the the hardcore religion things like most ppl are but iam Roman Catholic and i am not sure how the christian and Catholics are alike. i know it has to do with beliving in one god i think.

Roman Catholism is a branch of Christianity. For all extents and purposes, they believe more or less the same things as other Christians, except with a few differences with interpretations of the bible, such as views on certain "matters" (*cough**cough* mundane things) such as contraception and homosexuality (not to say that all Catholics will find this wrong and all non-Catholics won't, since this isn't the case).

Mormon

Guessed as much.

[aussiebunnie]

Suffice to say, you are just painting yourself as an idiot so I'd stop with your hypocrisy if I were you.

That is a personal insult, suffice to say, I don't personal insult people. I would stick to the debate and not get personal. Attack the argument, not the person.

They have an absolute right to decide what you believe in your head? Do they have a right to choose your sexuality? Do they have a right to choose what clothes you wear even if they are inappropiate for today's age or are for the wrong gender and the child doesn't wish to draw unwanted attention? Does the parent have the right to dominate everything about the child's life and not leave any decisions to them?

Yes they do because children do not have the capacity to make decisions for themselves at certain ages. EG why do they allow a person whose under 18 not to enter into a contract?

And if a child wishes not to follow the religion which the parents have "included" the child into, then they are free to choose to be atheist or another religion. I have not advocated for parents to become a strict religious cult, with no option for a child to leave, but they have a right to expose the child to a religion which they believe.

Except friends' "influences" are different from brainwashing in that they happen at a time when you are capable of thinking of yourself and are aware of the dangers and real friends will not force you into anything harmful. The defintion of friends alone probably moots your point.

Friends are always gonna have influence on you and how you Think, eg, I have never smoked pot in my life till one day a friend asked me to "give it a try". Friends have more influence over you than religion. In fact taking this further TV and Justin Bieber probably have more influence over kids than religion. If your gonna start labeling "religion" as brainwashing you might as well ban everything the child is exposed to. You might as well even put the child's brain into a VAT according to Putnam's theory and create an uninfluenced world.

[Death]

That is a personal insult, suffice to say, I don't personal insult people. I would stick to the debate and not get personal. Attack the argument, not the person.

No, I didn't call you an idiot. I said you were painting yourself as one. Like I've already said, learn to read.

Yes they do because children do not have the capacity to make decisions for themselves at certain ages.

Which is why you wait until they are older once they've learned more about the world before trying to expect them to make choices. But using that as an excuse to force children into things they may not even otherwise agree with is pure madness and shows how religion is dying so malcontents who would do shit like this have to go to desperate measures like brainwashing just to keep religion alive. They should learn to accept that not everyone's going to follow the same stuff as them and drop this selfish attitude that everyone must follow it.

EG why do they allow a person whose under 18 not to enter into a contract?

And if a child wishes not to follow the religion which the parents have "included" the child into, then they are free to choose to be atheist or another religion.

It's hard to do that when your brain has been wired through indoctrination to believe only what you've been told. Why do you think this cunt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWem_KdLVVg&feature=player_embedded) is spewing the sadistic nonsence that he is? Do you think that he would be so sure about it if he weren't brainwashed?

I have not advocated for parents to become a strict religious cult, with no option for a child to leave, but they have a right to expose the child to a religion which they believe.

There's a difference between exposure and forcing people to believe it. If you want to tell your children about your religion, then fine. But for goodness sake, let them know the whole truth about religion and not just about what you believe. The latter (i.e. restricting their knowledge to only what you believe and tot he delusion that it is "the only truth") would be cowardice in my opinion.

Friends are always gonna have influence on you and how you Think, eg, I have never smoked pot in my life till one day a friend asked me to "give it a try".

Then s/he isn't a friend. Simple.

Friends have more influence over you than religion.

http://www.roflcorner.com/wp-content/gallery/facepalm/jesus-facepalm-facepalm-jesus-epic-demotivational-poster-1218659828.jpg

I've just explained exactly why this is wrong, but I'll reiterate it:

Friends don't brianwash you in the same why religion does when you are young since you will be old enough to think for yourself and a true friend will not force you into anything bad. That's all I'm saying. Look back through the posts I've made if you want the rest of it, which I have told you.

In fact taking this further TV and Justin Bieber probably have more influence over kids than religion.

*reiteration of the same image as before*

How many people do you think actually like Justine Beaver?

If your gonna start labeling "religion" as brainwashing you might as well ban everything the child is exposed to.

As I said, there's a fine line between exposure and brainwashing. I suggest you look up its defintion, since you are obviously rusty on those. Too man parents bring up children getting them to believe that only they are right and not teaching them the full truth.

You might as well even put the child's brain into a VAT according to Putnam's theory and create an uninfluenced world.

:yawn:

[aussiebunnie]

No, I didn't call you an idiot. I said you were painting yourself as one. Like I've already said, learn to read.



Which is why you wait until they are older once they've learned more about the world before trying to expect them to make choices. But using that as an excuse to force children into things they may not even otherwise agree with is pure madness and shows how religion is dying so malcontents who would do shit like this have to go to desperate measures like brainwashing just to keep religion alive. They should learn to accept that not everyone's going to follow the same stuff as them and drop this selfish attitude that everyone must follow it.



It's hard to do that when your brain has been wired through indoctrination to believe only what you've been told. Why do you think this cunt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWem_KdLVVg&feature=player_embedded) is spewing the sadistic nonsence that he is? Do you think that he would be so sure about it if he weren't brainwashed?



There's a difference between exposure and forcing people to believe it. If you want to tell your children about your religion, then fine. But for goodness sake, let them know the whole truth about religion and not just about what you believe. The latter (i.e. restricting their knowledge to only what you believe and tot he delusion that it is "the only truth") would be cowardice in my opinion.



Then s/he isn't a friend. Simple.



image (http://www.roflcorner.com/wp-content/gallery/facepalm/jesus-facepalm-facepalm-jesus-epic-demotivational-poster-1218659828.jpg)

I've just explained exactly why this is wrong, but I'll reiterate it:

Friends don't brianwash you in the same why religion does when you are young since you will be old enough to think for yourself and a true friend will not force you into anything bad. That's all I'm saying. Look back through the posts I've made if you want the rest of it, which I have told you.



*reiteration of the same image as before*

How many people do you think actually like Justine Beaver?



As I said, there's a fine line between exposure and brainwashing. I suggest you look up its defintion, since you are obviously rusty on those. Too man parents bring up children getting them to believe that only they are right and not teaching them the full truth.



:yawn:

I am just going to stop posting to you in this thread because obviously you have an agenda to push. And yes you did call me an idiot just because you say you were implying that I was painting myself as one does not make a difference that you were saying that I was one.

It is also funny how you have to justify that religion is brainwashing by showing a person on youtube whose clearly gone too far (a minority) and saying thats how all religions act.

[Genghis Khan]

Which is why you wait until they are older once they've learned more about the world before trying to expect them to make choices. But using that as an excuse to force children into things they may not even otherwise agree with is pure madness and shows how religion is dying so malcontents who would do shit like this have to go to desperate measures like brainwashing just to keep religion alive. They should learn to accept that not everyone's going to follow the same stuff as them and drop this selfish attitude that everyone must follow it.

I slightly disagree with the whole idea of not being able to expose your child to a religion at a young age. Religion has a link to the culture of certain countries and I don't really see the harm of presenting it as 'here it is, these are the rituals, these are the beliefs, what do you think?'. My parents are atheists themselves but because we're Pakistani, Islam is tied to our culture too, so just to give us a taste of that, my parents made sure I at least learn the rituals and try it out. I don't see any harm in that, at all. I do see the harm in childhood indoctrination though, and that is different to how I was raised. Being raised with a label is... questionable. The idea of having your personal life chosen for you... I don't agree with it.

It's hard to do that when your brain has been wired through indoctrination to believe only what you've been told. Why do you think this cunt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWem_KdLVVg&feature=player_embedded) is spewing the sadistic nonsence that he is? Do you think that he would be so sure about it if he weren't brainwashed?

Well, arguably, there can also be people like this cunt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35-NQq9FcIE&feature=relmfu) who are not victims of childhood indoctrination but just follow another sad religion to waste their life away with. So, such behaviour from people who are brainwashed is not necessary. But I do agree with you Death, there is a danger of the child acting like an idiot.

[Death]

I am just going to stop posting to you in this thread because obviously you have an agenda to push.

Let me fix this quote:

"I am going to stop posting because I am incapable of finding anything with which to refute you and so I'm just going to pretend that the problem is the person I'm debating with even though he's been quite civil compared to what he could have been."

Seriously, grow up. And that's not much of a personal attack by the way. This is a personal attack:

"Like everything you pathetic religionists put in these forums aren't all superstitious nonsence anyway, right? You, personally, are the reason why these forums are shit."

Obviously I don't believe this, but I'm telling you there's a difference between debate and personal attacking. A difference I believe you either cannot, or will not see.

And yes you did call me an idiot

I just explained why I didn't sweetie. Quit lying in order to get at me simply because your "arguments" (if you can call them that) have failed.

just because you say you were implying that I was painting myself as one does not make a difference that you were saying that I was one.

Are you actually going to adress my arguments or what? It's obvious that you've failed and are now just whinging for the sake of it. What'ya want? A cookie?

It is also funny how you have to justify that religion is brainwashing by showing a person on youtube whose clearly gone too far (a minority) and saying thats how all religions act.

Implying that I was saying that, which I wasn't. But then you knew that.

Seeing that you have no interest in civilised debate and can't stop whinging about how the other allegedly keeps insulting you on a personal level even though we both know I haven't. It would appear that you are as manipulative over people in forums as you would be with children of your own. As such, this pathetic "discussion" ends now - unless you're actually going to start debating properly, which would be nice for a change.

I slightly disagree with the whole idea of not being able to expose your child to a religion at a young age.

That's not what I meant at all. I was saying that exposure is fine, but brainwashing isn't.

Being raised with a label is... questionable. The idea of having your personal life chosen for you... I don't agree with it.

I agree. Teach children about all religion, sure, but don't make them only follow one.

Well, arguably, there can also be people like this cunt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35-NQq9FcIE&feature=relmfu) who are not victims of childhood indoctrination but just food another sad religion to waste their life away with. So, such behaviour from people who are brainwashed is not necessary. But I do agree with you Death, there is a danger of the child acting like an idiot.

I'll admit that you'll always get extremists. But the numbers are still in flux. But otherwise I agree.

[Death]

By the way, someone negrepped me calling me a dumbass (that's all they said). Is that hypocritical, sarcastic, or what?

EDIT: Judging by the rep, I'm guessing it was you, assuiebunnie. And here was me thinking you were complaining at me for a personal attacking even though I just disagreed with you. This hypocrisy is hilarious.

[Magus]

It is a BS excuse. We would still have free will if god showed us he was real. Acording to the bible jesus showed himself to thousands after he rose.It's not a BS excuse, it's a test of Faith. If you have faith, you don't need any evidence. If you don't have faith, you probably will request for evidence.

Plus, Jesus... you don't know the concept of trinity?

[AJC410]

My dad's atheist my mom's pagan and my sis is chistain and I do not know what I am I believe in a higher power but that's it.

[Death]

It's not a BS excuse, it's a test of Faith. If you have faith, you don't need any evidence.

Doesn't make it real. It simply makes it wishful thinking, regardless of its accuracy.

My dad's atheist my mom's pagan and my sis is chistain and I do not know what I am I believe in a higher power but that's it.

How can you believe in something without knowing what that something is, simply for the sake of believing in one? I believe humanity should be more inquisitive and independantly-thinking than this.

[User Deleted]

Going to the OP I do not judge members of other religions. I personally don't see an overwhelming reason to.

[Magus]

Doesn't make it real. It simply makes it wishful thinking, regardless of its accuracy.What is real. If you take on that perspective, then it is a wishful thinking.

How can you believe in something without knowing what that something is, simply for the sake of believing in one? I believe humanity should be more inquisitive and independantly-thinking than this.Yes, they should be. But you are missing a few points. There are some phenomenons that occurs in this world that supports their beliefs.

[Theone15]

The Wicca,

[Magus]

The Wicca,There is no such thing as magick or majique or however you spell it.

[Noooooooooo]

How fucked up is God?

"And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him." -- Numbers 31:15-17

"I defiled them through their gifts — the sacrifice of every firstborn — that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the LORD." -- Ezekiel 20:26

"The King asked her, 'What’s the matter?' This woman said to me, 'Give up your son so we may eat him today, and tomorrow we'll eat my son.' So we cooked my son and ate him. The next day I said to her, 'Give up your son so we may eat him,' but she had hidden him....The king said, behold, this EVIL is of the LORD." - 2 Kings 6:28-29,33

"She will hide from them the afterbirth and the new baby she has borne, so that she herself can secretly eat them. She will have nothing else to eat during the siege and terrible distress that your enemy will inflict on all your towns." - Deuteronomy 28:57

"Behold, I [the LORD] will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it." -- Malachi 2:3

"This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'" -- 1 Samuel 15:2-3

"Their roots are dried up, and they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I [the LORD] will slaughter their beloved children." -- Hosea 9:16

"Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives raped." -- Isaiah 13:16

"Their bows will strike down the young men; they will have no mercy on infants nor will they look with compassion on children." -- Isaiah 13:18



Anyone who worships such a monster needs to be locked up in a... rubber room.

[Jess]

and don't forget these

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife. - Deuteronomy 22:23-24

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. - Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." - Deuteronomy 13:13-19

[Iris]

I think the reason most people follow religions based on the bible is because they've never actually read the whole thing. No one who encounters those quotes can justify them. But people like the idea that all they have to do is believe in some guy and they'll be guaranteed happiness in their lives and after they die. It's pathetic. A clear example of human weakness.

[Scoob]

Other. I haven't found any major religion that I agree with. I honestly adopted the 'I don't care' method. Why should I focus my life around finding a higher power when I'll ultimately find out the truth when I die. I'm just gonna live life to the fullest and not focus on that - too time consuming.

[Magus]

Other. I haven't found any major religion that I agree with. I honestly adopted the 'I don't care' method. Why should I focus my life around finding a higher power when I'll ultimately find out the truth when I die. I'm just gonna live life to the fullest and not focus on that - too time consuming.This how people should live their life. Not caring about who is there. Just focus on now than later.

[embers]

I love the flaw in religion that if the Devil truly was evil, he would send bad people to heaven.

[Death]

I love the flaw in religion that if the Devil truly was evil, he would send bad people to heaven.

This makes me wonder whether thw followers who seem to be obsessed with justice are being entirely serious.

[sammydream]

gOD, bLEP!

[unknownuser]

Christian (Roman Catholic).
I don't have a problem with other religions, I mean, I'm not going to hold a grudge against someone who doesn't believe in God, it's their choice- just like I choose to believe in Him.

[Sogeking]

Anyone who worships such a monster needs to be locked up in a... rubber room.


Way to go on insulting the majority of Christians, Lord Ad Hominem.

[StoppingTime]

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." - Deuteronomy 13:13-19

When you say this, do you even understand the meaning? This is not directed to anyone, but those who believe in the LORD, and then go against Him.

[Perseus]

When you say this, do you even understand the meaning? This is not directed to anyone, but those who believe in the LORD, and then go against Him.

It's still commanding to kill people. An entire city at that. If God is perfect, he shouldn't be able to have anger, since that is a human emotion and humans are imperfect.

[Jess]

When you say this, do you even understand the meaning? This is not directed to anyone, but those who believe in the LORD, and then go against Him.

1. What Perseus said.

2. did you read the other quotes I put? A rape victim has to marry her rapist. how sick is that?

[StoppingTime]

It's still commanding to kill people. An entire city at that. If God is perfect, he shouldn't be able to have anger, since that is a human emotion and humans are imperfect.

You obviously don't understand the law. If less than half the city, (mind you, the entire city was convinced to go to false gods,) they are sent to court. Also, there are opinions saying that this has and never will happen. There are so many other preventions that try to stop the killing the entire city. So next time you come to bash another religion, you (and anyone else) should have some idea what they are talking about.

[StoppingTime]

1. What Perseus said.

2. did you read the other quotes I put? A rape victim has to marry her rapist. how sick is that?

You cannot take the laws 100% literally, that is not how they were written.

[Perseus]

You cannot take the laws 100% literally, that is not how they were written.

Why shouldn't they be taken at 100%? They are the word of God, correct? If it's the word of God, then it was verbatim to what He said. Since he's God, He wouldn't make any discrepancies. It would be exactly what He said. No fancy metaphor or double meaning.

[StoppingTime]

Why shouldn't they be taken at 100%? They are the word of God, correct? If it's the word of God, then it was verbatim to what He said. Since he's God, He wouldn't make any discrepancies. It would be exactly what He said. No fancy metaphor or double meaning.

This is incorrect. When the Bible was originally taught to the people by Moses, everyone understood it completely, and did not need any explanation. However, this has not been the case up to the present which is why there are commentaries on the Bible and explanations. It is still perfect, although the people of this generations cannot understand it as they should without the appropriate commentaries.

[Perseus]

It is still perfect
That is wrong. The Bible is not perfect. "Why?", you shall ask. This is because it has been translated multiple times. From ancient Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. Also from Latin, to the now present languages, such as English. Things get lost in translation, words change meaning. And if it's so perfect, as you claim, then why should people be taught to understand its meaning? It shouldn't need to be taught to understand it if it's perfect.

[RoseyCadaver]

That is wrong. The Bible is not perfect. "Why?", you shall ask. This is because it has been translated multiple times. From ancient Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. Also from Latin, to the now present languages, such as English. Things get lost in translation, words change meaning. And if it's so perfect, as you claim, then why should people be taught to understand its meaning? It shouldn't need to be taught to understand it if it's perfect.
Don't forget there have been some altercations have been made on purpose like the KJV.

Anyways,one of the biggest flaws in religion would be why would an all knowing loving all everything God send a few of his children to a hell for being who they're(believing in another God ,GLBT,etc.).

Also,why did God go from two different spectrums from the first testament to second?

[StoppingTime]

That is wrong. The Bible is not perfect. "Why?", you shall ask. This is because it has been translated multiple times. From ancient Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. Also from Latin, to the now present languages, such as English. Things get lost in translation, words change meaning. And if it's so perfect, as you claim, then why should people be taught to understand its meaning? It shouldn't need to be taught to understand it if it's perfect.

Although, it does remain perfect in one language, that being Hebrew (or the Limud HaKodesh). And to reiterate what I previously mentioned, the Bible itself is perfect, but the people who try to understand it are not on the spiritual level necessary to.

[StoppingTime]

Don't forget there have been some altercations have been made on purpose like the KJV.

Anyways,one of the biggest flaws in religion would be why would an all knowing loving all everything God send a few of his children to a hell for being who they're(believing in another God ,GLBT,etc.).

Also,why did God go from two different spectrums from the first testament to second?

I will answer the first part of your question as I answered Perseus's. The Bible has not been changed in one language, that being Hebrew. If you study it in this language, there are no altercations.

To answer the second part of your question, God does not treat those who either didn't know they were Jewish/Christian etc... in that way, nor does He treat anyone who does not believe in idols that way, and really, the only way to be sent to "hell" (if you can call it that) is if you break just about all of the 7 Laws of Noah. These being

Prohibition of Idolatry
Prohibition of Murder
Prohibition of Theft
Prohibition of Sexual immorality
Prohibition of Blasphemy
Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive
Establishment of courts of law

For your third question, I cannot answer, seeing as I do not believe in Jesus, nor do I believe that God made the New Testament.

[Perseus]

Although, it does remain perfect in one language, that being Hebrew (or the Limud HaKodesh). And to reiterate what I previously mentioned, the Bible itself is perfect, but the people who try to understand it are not on the spiritual level necessary to.

Why would God not make it accessible for everyone to understand? After all, he's a jealous god and would want people to be worshiping all the time, and that wouldn't be easy for the plebeians if He makes for only a certain type of people to understand. Bible scholars disagree on things.

[StoppingTime]

Why would God not make it accessible for everyone to understand? After all, he's a jealous god and would want people to be worshiping all the time, and that wouldn't be easy for the plebeians if He makes for only a certain type of people to understand. Bible scholars disagree on things.

God cannot interfere with free will, and I think this answers your question. And what do you mean by the last part?

[Perseus]

God cannot interfere with free will, and I think this answers your question. And what do you mean by the last part?

Sure He can. He has the Divine Plan, after all. The last part is about you said people of certain spiritual level are needed to understand it, which I would say Bible scholars would have this, but they tend to disagree on some things.

[StoppingTime]

Sure He can. He has the Divine Plan, after all. The last part is about you said people of certain spiritual level are needed to understand it, which I would say Bible scholars would have this, but they tend to disagree on some things.

He can but that is not the way that He chooses to run the world. Some of them are on that level, but they still are not on the same level as the people that were first taught the Bible.

[Perseus]

He can but that is not the way that He chooses to run the world.
But He has the Divine Plan, so actually it is.

[StoppingTime]

But He has the Divine Plan, so actually it is.

He has the plan of the world, but that is for Him not to interfere with people. If He regularly would interfere with free will, why was hitler born? Why September 11? He could have stopped any of those any time He wanted, but He did not because He does not interfere with free will.

[Perseus]

He has the plan of the world, but that is for Him not to interfere with people. If He regularly would interfere with free will, why was hitler born? Why September 11? He could have stopped any of those any time He wanted, but He did not because He does not interfere with free will.

If He doesn't interfere, then why need the Divine Plan? Why need free will if he knows what is going to happen? It's not free will when someone or something is governing over it.

[Angel Androgynous]

If He doesn't interfere, then why need the Divine Plan? Why need free will if he knows what is going to happen? It's not free will when someone or something is governing over it.
I cannot agree more. (:

I am agnostic. I have no faith in God(s) but it is a possibility.

Which is weird because: Why do we not believe in mermaids? In fairies? We cannot dis-prove them. We don't believe in them because they are in myths. In stories. Something that mankind made up. Like religion. I won't hold any faith until it is proven to me. Face to face.

HOWEVER, I do believe in spirits. For fun. (: Ah how fun it is to play ouja!

[StoppingTime]

If He doesn't interfere, then why need the Divine Plan? Why need free will if he knows what is going to happen? It's not free will when someone or something is governing over it.

He knows what is going to happen, but He is not the one to control it. It is still free will, because we are the ones who are committing the actions. And also, what do you mean when you say Divine Plan? I have never heard of such a thing.

[Perseus]

He knows what is going to happen, but He is not the one to control it. It is still free will, because we are the ones who are committing the actions. And also, what do you mean when you say Divine Plan? I have never heard of such a thing.

If someone knows what you're going to do before you do it, then it is predestined and you have no control over it. Divine Plan refers to God's plan for each and every person who lives on Earth. It is the same as predestination.

After doing some research(you're Jewish, from what I've read), do you believe that God is omnipotent and omniscient?

[StoppingTime]

If someone knows what you're going to do before you do it, then it is predestined and you have no control over it. Divine Plan refers to God's plan for each and every person who lives on Earth. It is the same as predestination.

After doing some research(you're Jewish, from what I've read), do you believe that God is omnipotent and omniscient?

Just because God knows what you are going to do, doesn't mean that it is predetermined. We do not know what we will do in the future for certain, and we can change our minds at any times. God does know when we will do this, but he doesn't make it so that we think we do not have a predetermined life, but we really don't. And to answer your second question, I do beleive that God has power over anything and everything that has, ever, and will happen, but He doesn't use it to interfere with our lives, but He could.

[Perseus]

Just because God knows what you are going to do, doesn't mean that it is predetermined. We do not know what we will do in the future for certain, and we can change our minds at any times. God does know when we will do this, but he doesn't make it so that we think we do not have a predetermined life, but we really don't. And to answer your second question, I do beleive that God has power over anything and everything that has, ever, and will happen, but He doesn't use it to interfere with our lives, but He could.

It isn't freewill if it's already determined it's going to happen.

[StoppingTime]

It isn't freewill if it's already determined it's going to happen.

God does not choose our lives and how we run them, He rather "reads" them and sees what our choices will make on future events. If He wanted to constrict free will, and wanted a perfect world, why didn't He make one? When the world was flooded during the story of Noah, it was to rid the world of evil. However, this proved untrue and God decided to keep an imperfect world, because he did not control the actions of the people. If He wanted a perfect world after the flood, He could have made one, but decided to leave us with free will.

[Perseus]

God does not choose our lives and how we run them, He rather "reads" them and sees what our choices will make on future events.
What you don't understand is that He already knows what will happen, ergo predestination. He knows who will be damned and who won't. He calls himself a just God; if he were just, he would not knowingly let people stray away from his path. It doesn't matter what you do. God has already made plans for you. Freewill does not exist in the Abrahamic religions because of that. If God already knows what he is going to happen, then you aren't choosing it. It's been chosen for you.

[StoppingTime]

What you don't understand is that He already knows what will happen, ergo predestination. He knows who will be damned and who won't. He calls himself a just God; if he were just, he would not knowingly let people stray away from his path. It doesn't matter what you do. God has already made plans for you. Freewill does not exist in the Abrahamic religions because of that. If God already knows what he is going to happen, then you aren't choosing it. It's been chosen for you.

You can therefore see that I am placing before you both a blessing and a curse. The blessing is obeying the Commandments of Hashem your G-d, which I am prescribing to you today. The curse is if you do not obey the Commandments of Hashem your G-d, and you go astray from the path that I am prescribing for you today, following the gods of others, which you have not known.
-- Deut. 11:26-28 (bolded by myself)
In the Torah (Bible) God gives us a choice to do good, or evil. As I said before, He does not toy with us in making us believe that we have free will but we really don't, so how could anything be predetermined? God knows what we will do based on our own actions. It is true He knows what our actions will be, because we are doing them.

[Perseus]

I It is true He knows what our actions will be, because we are doing them.

Then how is it freewill? He knows what we will do.

The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/free-will#ixzz1S2PswFEU

[StoppingTime]

Then how is it freewill? He knows what we will do.

First off, you are correct. He knows what we will do, but He isn't choosing it for us. He knows based on the choices we will make, and He does not interfere with it, and I think this answers the definition, which has nothing to do with it at all.

[Perseus]

First off, you are correct. He knows what we will do, but He isn't choosing it for us. He knows based on the choices we will make, and He does not interfere with it, and I think this answers the definition, which has nothing to do with it at all.

It doesn't matter if he interferes with it or not. He still knows what will happen. It is fate, which makes it not freewill. It's the opposite. It's a set path that will happen and there's nothing you can do to try and change it. You can change your actions, but He would know that would happen anyway, so you're not in control. It is predetermined.

[StoppingTime]

It doesn't matter if he interferes with it or not. He still knows what will happen. It is fate, which makes it not freewill. It's the opposite. It's a set path that will happen and there's nothing you can do to try and change it. You can change your actions, but He would know that would happen anyway, so you're not in control. It is predetermined.

It is not a set path, and it does matter whether it is interfered with or not. You have absolutely no idea (nor do I) every single choice I will make in my life. I also know that my choices are not controlled, but rather God knows them. What is the difference if it is known that you will do something if A. it is not changed by the one who knows, and B. you do not know making it free will to do whatever you want.

[Perseus]

It is not a set path, and it does matter whether it is interfered with or not. You have absolutely no idea (nor do I) every single choice I will make in my life. I also know that my choices are not controlled, but rather God knows them. What is the difference if it is known that you will do something if A. it is not changed by the one who knows, and B. you do not know making it free will to do whatever you want.

How is it not a set path? It is already set and determined by God.

[StoppingTime]

How is it not a set path? It is already set and determined by God.

God didn't set it Himself, you set your own path based on the choices you make, God just looks into the future and sees what those choices will do for you.

[Perseus]

God didn't set it Himself, you set your own path based on the choices you make, God just looks into the future and sees what those choices will do for you.

All right then. I can't argue with that.

[Death]

God didn't set it Himself, you set your own path based on the choices you make, God just looks into the future and sees what those choices will do for you.

What does God do with that information? If he's able to foresee what the outcome of our many choices are, then, given that he's allegedly omnipotent, why doesn't he prevent us from making choices that adversely affect us unintentionally?

[Magus]

What does God do with that information? If he's able to foresee what the outcome of our many choices are, then, given that he's allegedly omnipotent, why doesn't he prevent us from making choices that adversely affect us unintentionally?I am pretty sure you have heard this answer many of times: God works in mysterious ways--way beyond our comprehension. :yes:

[Death]

I am pretty sure you have heard this answer many of times: God works in mysterious ways--way beyond our comprehension. :yes:

I'm pretty sure you'll have heard this before too, but that answer just isn't going to do. :P

[StoppingTime]

What does God do with that information? If he's able to foresee what the outcome of our many choices are, then, given that he's allegedly omnipotent, why doesn't he prevent us from making choices that adversely affect us unintentionally?

He does not prevent us from making bad choices because He does not interfere with our free will.

[embers]

He does not prevent us from making bad choices because He does not interfere with our free will.

And yet he wants us to worship him and will send us to hell for not doing so? Way to go.

[StoppingTime]

And yet he wants us to worship him and will send us to hell for not doing so? Way to go.

That statement is completely false.

[BuryYourFlame]

That statement is completely false.

What would you say is a more accurate description of his condemnation then?

[Angel Androgynous]

That statement is completely false.

Ever read the bible? If you don't worship God...you go to hell. (:


I have no faith in God(s) but there are possibilities. Does not mean I am going to try out every religion to see which one is the right one. Who knows...maybe the Egyptians were right with their religion....or the Mayans....Or maybe religion is just man-made stories that are excuses for science.... Religion was made thousands of years ago as a way to explain things....

[StoppingTime]

Ever read the bible? If you don't worship God...you go to hell. (:

Can you show me proof (in the Bible)

A. if you don't worship God you go to hell
B. There is a "hell"?

[Angel Androgynous]

Can you show me proof (in the Bible)

A. if you don't worship God you go to hell
B. There is a "hell"?

3:16 For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God’s wrath remains on him.

25:46 And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

[StoppingTime]

3:16 For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God’s wrath remains on him.

25:46 And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

I cannot comment on this seeing as I do not believe in Jesus nor the New Testament.

[Bath]

I cannot comment on this seeing as I do not believe in Jesus nor the New Testament.

That's what it says in the Bible.
You asked.

[StoppingTime]

That's what it says in the Bible.
You asked.

Your correct. I should have been more specific... The Old Testament (5 Books of Moses, Scriptures, Prophets)

[Angel Androgynous]

Your correct. I should have been more specific... The Old Testament (5 Books of Moses, Scriptures, Prophets)

Ah are you Jewish? Yeah in the Christian Bible it mentions a hell....I didn't know you were Jewish. If I did, then talking about hell would be pointless.

Whatever, still as Agnostic Athiest as can be. :D (Yes those do exist xD)

[Perseus]

Your correct. I should have been more specific... The Old Testament (5 Books of Moses, Scriptures, Prophets)

Isn't Sheol the equivalent of Hell?

[StoppingTime]

Isn't Sheol the equivalent of Hell?

They are similar but not the same (it is not just for the unrighteous). The closest thing I can think of to hell in Judaism is Gehenam.

[Angel Androgynous]

They are similar but not the same (it is not just for the unrighteous). The closest thing I can think of to hell in Judaism is Gehenam.

So pretty much in the Jeiwsh faith if you don't believe in God then you go to Gehenam? Or...?

[Perseus]

So pretty much in the Jeiwsh faith if you don't believe in God then you go to Gehenam? Or...?

Jews were the only ones who could believe in God (before Jesus came about and Mohammed). So, you won't go to Hell (or the Jewish equivalent, even though Hell stems from Judaism in Christian theology), though I obviously don't know since I'm not Jewish. You can't convert to Judaism.

[Angel Androgynous]

Ah haha, I understand. I just wanted to know more about the Jewish faith. I knew that that they were around before Jesus and Mohammed. (:

[StoppingTime]

So pretty much in the Jeiwsh faith if you don't believe in God then you go to Gehenam? Or...?

No this is not how I would put it. If you were never brought up Jewish, never knew you were Jewish etc... you are not held accountable. If you were brought up Jewish, and you veered away from it later in life, there is a possibility you could be held responsible, but it all depends on the situation and how God will handle it.

[Angel Androgynous]

Ah okay. That actually makes sense. (:

[StoppingTime]

Jews were the only ones who could believe in God (before Jesus came about and Mohammed). So, you won't go to Hell (or the Jewish equivalent, even though Hell stems from Judaism in Christian theology), though I obviously don't know since I'm not Jewish. You can't convert to Judaism.

You absolutely can covert to Judaism but you may not promote conversion.

[Perseus]

You absolutely can covert to Judaism but you may not promote conversion.

Oh. I thought you couldn't convert.

[StoppingTime]

Oh. I thought you couldn't convert.

You may, but we don't but up billboards or tell anyone to.

[Perseus]

You may, but we don't but up billboards or tell anyone to.

I'm curious. What's your take on Jesus and the virgin birth and whatnot?

[Angel Androgynous]

I like that. (: Not telling people to and putting up billboards.

[Apparitions]

So God would just let innocent people die for no reason (9/11, 7/7 etc) when he knew it would happen, yet he just stands by and does fuck all about it? Sounds like an evil God to me...

[Magus]

So God would just let innocent people die for no reason (9/11, 7/7 etc) when he knew it would happen, yet he just stands by and does fuck all about it? Sounds like an evil God to me...He sound a good God to me. He doesn't fucking care. That's what I like in him!

Plus, have you forget that those who did the 9/11 are doing it the name of their God(for political reasons, of course), and that their God is supporting them?

[StoppingTime]

I'm curious. What's your take on Jesus and the virgin birth and whatnot?

I do not believe any of that. The only thing I will say about Jesus is that he was a person. Nothing special.

[StoppingTime]

So God would just let innocent people die for no reason (9/11, 7/7 etc) when he knew it would happen, yet he just stands by and does nothing about it? Sounds like an evil God to me...

He sound a good God to me. He doesn't care. That's what I like in him!

Plus, have you forget that those who did the 9/11 are doing it the name of their God(for political reasons, of course), and that their God is supporting them?

It's not that He doesn't care, but it is not how He runs the world.

[Perseus]

I do not believe any of that. The only thing I will say about Jesus is that he was a person. Nothing special.

I know you don't believe in that. Doesn't mean you don't have an opinion on it.

[StoppingTime]

I know you don't believe in that. Doesn't mean you don't have an opinion on it.

I have no opinion on it.

[deadpie]

He has the plan of the world, but that is for Him not to interfere with people. If He regularly would interfere with free will, why was hitler born? Why September 11? He could have stopped any of those any time He wanted, but He did not because He does not interfere with free will.

These are all excuses for intellectual laziness towards making bad things seem not as bad with a supported illusion of some form of a divine reasoning for everything. Uh, fuck that.

Your God didn't let all those people that died on 9/11 die just because his plan for them was done or because it was for some 'greater good' that will happen sometime soon. It's not going to happen anyhow.


Doesn't life seem a lot shittier when you think of it in the way that everything is being planned out? I mean, can you think of God looking down at Jeffrey Dahmers life, planning out him fucking corpses and planning his death in jail? Do you really think that was his divine plan for Dahmer? I mean, if God has a plan for everyone, he has a plan for the violent people too, whom he let commit violence and let die.

I like to think of like as random and something you can control. I want to walk down my hallway and not think it's some higher power pulling his strings on my legs telling me which foot to use before the other.

Plus, what's really that exciting about living if everything is planned out? And what does planned out really mean? I could grab a gun, shoot myself in the head and it would of all been apart of his plan, right? Because there is no way to interfere with it. So technically this whole conversation is part of it too. All of it.

Let me tell you all something. It means nothing at all. It's psycho babble psuedo bullshit.

So pretty much in the Jeiwsh faith if you don't believe in God then you go to Gehenam? Or...?

Gehenna isn't hell. Yes, words are twisted into other religions, but Gehenna is more of a place to be judged. In fact, the jewish faith doesn't really go in much depth on the afterlife, mainly describing it as a future planet of some sorts / world to come. In punishment for the jewish faith it's not permanent (I think the longest is about a year), like what you get in Christianity (A never ending lake of fire to swim in).

[StoppingTime]

These are all excuses for intellectual laziness towards making bad things seem not as bad with a supported illusion of some form of a divine reasoning for everything. Uh, fuck that.

Your God didn't let all those people that died on 9/11 die just because his plan for them was done or because it was for some 'greater good' that will happen sometime soon. It's not going to happen anyhow.


Doesn't life seem a lot shittier when you think of it in the way that everything is being planned out? I mean, can you think of God looking down at Jeffrey Dahmers life, planning out him fucking corpses and planning his death in jail? Do you really think that was his divine plan for Dahmer? I mean, if God has a plan for everyone, he has a plan for the violent people too, whom he let commit violence and let die.

I like to think of like as random and something you can control. I want to walk down my hallway and not think it's some higher power pulling his strings on my legs telling me which foot to use before the other.

Plus, what's really that exciting about living if everything is planned out? And what does planned out really mean? I could grab a gun, shoot myself in the head and it would of all been apart of his plan, right? Because there is no way to interfere with it. So technically this whole conversation is part of it too. All of it.

Let me tell you all something. It means nothing at all. It's psycho babble psuedo bullshit.



Gehenna isn't hell. Yes, words are twisted into other religions, but Gehenna is more of a place to be judged. In fact, the jewish faith doesn't really go in much depth on the afterlife, mainly describing it as a future planet of some sorts / world to come. In punishment for the jewish faith it's not permanent (I think the longest is about a year), like what you get in Christianity (A never ending lake of fire to swim in).

It isn't a plan that is written at birth, you can change it whenever you want. God didn't set up a plan for you, you choose it. That's why it's called free will

[Iris]

I know you don't believe in that. Doesn't mean you don't have an opinion on it.

I come from an Jewish home and community (though I myself am an atheist) so I can tell you how most Jews feel about him:

Orthodox Jews DESPISE Jesus. First of all he was born a Jew and then became an apikores, a heretic, and said and did things that aren't allowed in Judaism. Second of all, he also converted many many Jews, which is a terrible thing in Judaism ("losing" a Jew). Third of all, he died and the Christians blamed his death on the Jews and for centuries after that Jews were massacred over and over again by Christians. Since Christianity is considered Jesus's fault, he's kind of hated. In my community you're not supposed to say his English name (people will literally flinch if you do) only his Hebrew name, Yeshu, and even that is used sparsely.

From what I can tell the other major sects of Judaism like Conservative and Reform Jews don't really like him, as he still was a heretic and his actions led to the deaths of many Jews, but I don't think there's as much of an antagonism as in Orthodox Judaism.

Gehenna isn't hell. Yes, words are twisted into other religions, but Gehenna is more of a place to be judged. In fact, the jewish faith doesn't really go in much depth on the afterlife, mainly describing it as a future planet of some sorts / world to come. In punishment for the jewish faith it's not permanent (I think the longest is about a year), like what you get in Christianity (A never ending lake of fire to swim in).

It's spoken and pronounced as Gehennom, by the way. Also it IS like the Christian hell. It's supposedly where evil people go after they are judged. Whether there's fire and brimstone or whatever is unlikely (especially since you don't have a body anymore, just a soul, so what would even burn? How would you feel the heat?). And you're correct, the afterlife in Judaism is very vague, so lots of Rabbinical scholars commented on them, which is where the "year" thing is from. It's not really described much in the Torah and the later major books (Neviim, Ketubim etc.).

[Death]

It isn't a plan that is written at birth, you can change it whenever you want. God didn't set up a plan for you, you choose it. That's why it's called free will

Pardon me whilst I fully agree with both Apparitions and deadpie... again.

But seriously, what's the good of free will when it can only come to screw you over? If God is so omnipotent and omnibenevolent like you religionists like to think, then I would like you to picture this scenareo:

You are walking down the street and are about to cross the road to get to a shop. However, you are doing so at just the wrong time because some crazy lunatic is driving down the road at way beyond the speed limit and will knock you down before you have a chance to see him and will clip your leg. By God not intervining and sticking to his "free-will" idea, he is allowing you to go througha world of pain and becoming hospitalised, probably losing you your usage of your leg, and maybe even your life.

Now picture another one. You're surfing the internet and come across an anti-virus package for download. Eager to protect your computer from known threats you've had before, you download and run it only to find that it is in fact rouge-malware in itself and practically ruins your computer by disabling most functions and "requires" you to purchase the whole package just to stop it from trying to close down legitimate programmes. What would God do then? Would he stick by his "free-will" idea and assume you actually "wanted" that or would he intervene and stop you from screwing your PC over?

Consider these examples and tell me that an all-power and all-loving God wouldn't intervene.