Sell the Vatican City.

[Sage]

Sell the Vatican City. Think about it. Take -all- the money the entire Catholic Church has and you could end an -unbelievable- amount of problems in the world. Poverty, famine, debt. The Church has an unbelievable amount of wealth that's just amassed over centuries and centuries. I swear, if the Church gave all of the wealth it had to solving the worlds' problems, I may just completely overlook the crusades, the dark ages, the the spanish inquisition, the AIDS crisis in Africa, the cover-up of pedophile priests, a ton of stuff. Key word: may.

Who's with me?

[Dorsum Oppel]

*raises hand*

But we all know what a loving and not-at-all-money-hoaring organization the catholic church is.

[Sugaree]

It's a good idea, but how would we get it sold? The Church would obviously take everything it could, money included.

[Sage]

I am going to go so far as to say that this is their moral obligation and the only way to pay off their debt to humanity. They just need to sell the land and all things on it. Have an auction or some shit. Wealthiest people in the world buy it, and all that money goes towards solving worldly problems.

[Sugaree]

I am going to go so far as to say that this is their moral obligation and the only way to pay off their debt to humanity.

But to most Catholics, they don't feel a moral obligation to pay off their debt. It's damn near difficult to convince them otherwise.

[Rutherford The Brave]

I've actually thought about this. They have way to much money, and the have all the luxurious goods. Like tapasteries, and what not. The money they spend on candles could feed people in Haiti....But no let's make the room asthetically pleasing.

[Dorsum Oppel]

Candles? LOL.

The pope shits in a solid gold toilet encrusted with rubies. Ever seen pictures of the inner vatican? It's so lavish it makes celebrity mansions look like shacks. I'm suprised the pope doesn't have his own episode of cribs.

[darkwoon]

Sell the Vatican City. Think about it. Take -all- the money the entire Catholic Church has and you could end an -unbelievable- amount of problems in the world. Poverty, famine, debt. The Church has an unbelievable amount of wealth that's just amassed over centuries and centuries. I swear, if the Church gave all of the wealth it had to solving the worlds' problems, I may just completely overlook the crusades, the dark ages, the the spanish inquisition, the AIDS crisis in Africa, the cover-up of pedophile priests, a ton of stuff. Key word: may.

Who's with me?
Not me. Short-term solution that would be, as it would give a strong boost to Catholic fundamentalists.
I'm my opinion, it would be way better to replace the current head of the Catholic Church by a younger staff, more in touch with the current world. Why? Because if a church is powerful enough to impose stupid things, it is *also* powerful enough to impose useful things.
In short: a pro-condom Pope would be worth 10 Vatican Cities :).

As for the Dark Ages, I wonder why you are blaming the Catholic Church for that...

[Iron Man]

Aye. What do they need all of that money for anyway? It`s not like they can give it to their God or anything. Solving the worlds problems would probably be the best thing the Catholic Church has ever done (and they hardly care about people`s problems).

[Sith Lord 13]

I say no, simply because I don't want to see the artwork fall into private hands. Art exists to be seen and shared. Especially the works of the masters.

As for liquidating certain Church assets, I'm all for that. Just leave the artwork alone.

[Sage]

I say no, simply because I don't want to see the artwork fall into private hands. Art exists to be seen and shared. Especially the works of the masters.

Speaking as an artist, I would completely disagree and I also feel it's morally reprehensible to prioritize artwork over human lives.

[karl]

I would just like to say that my knowledge of religion is pretty basic, and I'm certainly in no position to argue about it, but I would like to say that when you talk about the Pope and the Vatican, then that is the Roman Catholic Church. The Church of England believes in a Catholic Church, which is not part of the Roman Catholic Church

[Continuum]

They just need to sell the land and all things on it.

What land? They only have a one kilometer state, why sell it? It's better off independent than letting others use it as a mega parking lot of some sort. Plus, the vatican preserves a lot of culture from every aspect of catholicism, so I wouldn't sell it.

[scuba steve]

the Catholic Church is now effectively a business. A businesses main goal is profit. The Catholic Church does this very well, with millions of contributers worldwide. Therefore this would never happen. Also the fact that it would virtually destroy the religion on the cultural side of things.

[Sage]

What land? They only have a one kilometer state, why sell it? It's better off independent than letting others use it as a mega parking lot of some sort. Plus, the vatican preserves a lot of culture from every aspect of catholicism, so I wouldn't sell it.

So you're prioritizing culture over making the entire world a better place. Are all the people in poverty across the entire globe really a fair price in order to stare at some needlessly extravagant buildings? Why does the church need these things?

Also, note: This was not a thread intended to debate the likelihood of this happening, rather, whether or not such a course of action is worth it.

[Cloud]

Speaking as an artist, I would completely disagree and I also feel it's morally reprehensible to prioritize artwork over human lives.

The artwork can be sold,
since you know that if the people are rich enough to buy it then they are responsible enough to care for it
the only problem i can see coming from selling the vatican would be the libraries since they hold so much of the history.
And having that in the hands of a private investor would be bad

But anyway i do believe it would be one of the best things for them to do
Or not even sell it all, just downgrade it and sell the luxuriously unnecessary shit
they preach "its harder for a rich man to enter heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle" and then off goes popey walking down a corridor of millions of pounds worth of artwork thats sitting there collecting dust rather than helping fulfil the church's supposed duty of love thy neighbour and helping the people who neeed the money

[scuba steve]

So you're prioritizing culture over making the entire world a better place. Are all the people in poverty across the entire globe really a fair price in order to stare at some needlessly extravagant buildings? Why does the church need these things?

Also, note: This was not a thread intended to debate the likelihood of this happening, rather, whether or not such a course of action is worth it.

then no i would say it wouldn't be worth it as this action would most likely cause rioting on a global scale on the dismantling of the headquarters of the Catholic Church. Majorly Catholic nations like Italy and Spain would see rioting in the streets. And i would also think that this may spark Catholic activist groups who may see to it to hunt down private buyers and either steal back or kill the collectors. (it may be a bit action - drama, but honestly it wouldn't surprise me if it was in the news.)

[Insanity Fair]

For historical purpose selling to a private investor would be bad idea. Some of the pieces belong in museums. Others can be scanned and copied before being sold. Selling EVERYTHING would be bad idea but I do agree that the catholic church doesn't need all these extravagances.

[IAMWILL]

The idea seems nice, however why would the Catholic church sell all of what it owns for repaying its "debt to humanity" when one of the central beliefs of Catholicism is forgiveness? Catholicism believes that God forgives all, therefore invalidating the idea that they owe to give all back. Also to be noted though is the fact that another central belief of Catholicism is giving to those who have less than you, and it is true that the Catholic church seems to not have given enough back to the world.
I like the idea, however it could never happen.

[Whisper]

absolutely not.
Fuck the church, that is a HUGE piece of architectural history and beauty
an important link to humanities past
and it deserves protection

If the worlds problems could be solved by cash it would have happened by now
Money is not the issue
its the moral and political ideology of both the people trying to help, and those in need of aid that needs to change
the mere notion that if you throw enough money at it the problem will go away boggles my mind, if buying a pink ribbon sanctioned coffee cup, bow, notepad, etc... could cure breast cancer, it would have happened already.
You can't slow down the progression of AIDS in Africa when village elders are ordering the next generation not to use protection because the white mans lying
You can't end the terrorist mentality through Guantanamo
Why is it the number one cause of death in impoverished nations is starvation and yet the leading cause in the western world is obesity

sell the vatican? a monumental repository of human history, artwork, and architectural ingenuity? negative.


Today's problems go well beyond a few pieces of cotton paper

[Dorsum Oppel]

Of course money isn't an issue. That's exactly why we give malaria vaccines to people in africa made of hopes and dreams.

THIS JUST IN: I cured cancer with good intentions and buying cupcakes at a bake sale!

[Whisper]

Of course money isn't an issue. That's exactly why we give malaria vaccines to people in africa made of hopes and dreams.

THIS JUST IN: I cured cancer with good intentions and buying cupcakes at a bake sale!

I'm confused was that a snot nosed attempt at a come back?
Even in this recession if there's one thing the western world is good at doing its pulling cash out of our ass
But the fact is you can't solve problems by just throwing a huge wad of cash at it
life isn't that simple

For the united states alone the GDP for 2006 was 13 trillion

What are you going to do sell the vatican for a couple billion?
who would buy it?
what political and religious uproar would that cause
what would be lost in regards to western history and culture
and for some reason it's believed such an act would wipe the past wrongdoings of the church clean? and solve all the worlds poverty, disease, famine, etc... problems overnight?......Are you high?

[Rutherford The Brave]

I'm confused was that a snot nosed attempt at a come back?
Even in this recession if there's one thing the western world is good at doing its pulling cash out of our ass
But the fact is you can't solve problems by just throwing a huge wad of cash at it
life isn't that simple

For the united states alone the GDP for 2006 was 13 trillion

What are you going to do sell the vatican for a couple billion?
who would buy it?
what political and religious uproar would that cause
what would be lost in regards to western history and culture
and for some reason it's believed such an act would wipe the past wrongdoings of the church clean? and solve all the worlds poverty, disease, famine, etc... problems overnight?......Are you high?

The issue is, that even if we take away those luxuries. How do we know that we actually can use that money for the greater good? I feel like the majority of that money would go to settling issues of a religious matter...I feel like that would be the biggest issue. However, it is not fair for them to have such things. I say they can keep their place. Just sell the luxuries and use the money for the greater good.

[Dorsum Oppel]

'm confused was that a snot nosed attempt at a come back?
Lulz, I'm snot nosed.

But the fact is you can't solve problems by just throwing a huge wad of cash at it
life isn't that simple
True, but what we could throw that wad of cash at is building of schools and hospitals to better the future of africa, or medicine and vaccines. Africa is just the top prioroty right now, but money is at the basis of all operations.

Even in this recession if there's one thing the western world is good at doing its pulling cash out of our ass
The question is not who has the money, but who's willing to put it forward. The whole idea is not what's going to happen, but whether selling the vatican is a good idea.

who would buy it?
rich people who want shit.

what political and religious uproar would that cause
People would get over it in about a month.

what would be lost in regards to western history and culture
It's not like we're burning it down, it's just being re-possessed.

and for some reason it's believed such an act would wipe the past wrongdoings of the church clean? and solve all the worlds poverty, disease, famine, etc... problems overnight?......Are you high?
I don't quite remember seeing anyone claim that it would lead to absolute utopia.

[The Dark Lord]

Absolutely he Vatican City should be sold. It, as well as the Catholic Church, has lost all credability and is now an outdated, bigoted society. The money raised would help end poverty for some people or find a cure for cancer.

[mrmcdonaldduck]

Hmmm, well i think they should sell the stuff that they never use that is just locked up in storage. I mean that alone should help fight world hunger for 15 years or so. and its not like their using it or anything. And tim, i didnt know you had such a charitable outlook on things.

[ray8806]

I'm actually quite shocked! From all the wonderful things the Universal Church has done, and all of you talk about selling some of Christianity's most valuable treasures! Why don't we sell some of the US's treasures, the UK's, France's, China's, any number of nation's and we could stop world hunger for hundreds of years! Why take it out on the Vatican Alone?

Also, one must separate the difference of the Vatican City-State AND the Holy See. There is a difference in the Roman Catholic Church and Vatican City. But just stating that we need to specify that.

I am quite disappointed. The Church HAS fed the hungry, housed the poor, and assisted those in need! They do it constantly. Sure the Holy See holds many artifacts but they are held as priceless sacred items that are dear to the Catholic Church and the entire realm of Christianity. Sure there are some unneeded things, BUT are they there to be greedy? or are they there to show how prosperous Christianity really is? Are they there to show stability, and success? The Pope is not only the sovereign of Vatican City, he is the Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, the image of Christianity to the world just as His Holiness the Dalai Lama is for Buddhism. Are you going to tell the Dalai Lama to sell all of his pricless relics as well? If you're trying to get the Vatican to do so, talk to the Office of the Dalai lama as well.

Also, talking about selling unnecessary things to give to charity. How about look at yourself? Maybe you're family just bought a new car, do you REALLY need THAT car and you couldn't settle for something cheaper so that other's could be fed, heck couldn't you sell that car and just walk wherever you go? Do you need those designer clothes instead of getting some from Wal-Mart and housing a homeless person? Do you seriously NEED that internet and cable television instead of using the money to donate to the AIDS cause? I could go on and on. But the fact is, we all have luxuries that most people of the world could only dream about. But we don't go selling all of it to feed the hungry. No, instead we throw ourselves FURTHER in debt to satisfy that want for something 'better-than'.

[Perseus]

Africa can't be fixed with money (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=76891). I don't think the city itself should be sold because then some rich guy would own it, and it would be the same thing, but y'know, selling the pointless stuff the Church has in the Vatican. And Raynumbersgalore, I think you're in denial.

[INFERNO]

I'm not a fan of the Vatican having so much money but what's selling it going to do? It's going to toss money all around the place, which is what's been happening for quite a long time already. Some of the issues can be resolved by money but they also require a change in morals, laws, society and willingness. If these don't change, then tossing money at it may work for only a bit but it's going to be burned up very fast with minimal change having occurred. If these are changed, then you won't need so much money to be tossed at it, more can be saved for other things.

It is a priceless piece of history but just being hypothetical on this, three problems arise. First, how is the massive outcry of people against it going to be dealt with? People all around the world are devoted to it and it'd cause the biggest riot ever, I'd suspect at least the Third World War. Second, who is going to take the money and the stuff sold? I think most of it (if not all) belongs in a museum but I know that many rich people would want to get their hands on it. It'd be localized by one group or person, then the government and other aid groups would have to negotiate something for the person to give up some of the money. Third, with all the money, how do we figure out where to throw it and properly monitor that the change we want is indeed happening? Well to monitor it, we need money for that to occur.

I'd be happy with a law being passed that churches must pay tax because in general, it's an empire, a huge business. They take in millions of dollars, so put some tax on it to have it benefit the society. On top of the tax, the churches can decide to donate some money to whatever cause. I'd also say tax the Vatican, we'd get millions, probably billions from taxing the churches and the Vatican. Plenty of money to work with without selling the entire Vatican.

[Dorsum Oppel]

I'm actually quite shocked! From all the wonderful things the Universal Church has done, and all of you talk about selling some of Christianity's most valuable treasures! Why don't we sell some of the US's treasures, the UK's, France's, China's, any number of nation's and we could stop world hunger for hundreds of years! Why take it out on the Vatican Alone?

Also, one must separate the difference of the Vatican City-State AND the Holy See. There is a difference in the Roman Catholic Church and Vatican City. But just stating that we need to specify that.

I am quite disappointed. The Church HAS fed the hungry, housed the poor, and assisted those in need! They do it constantly. Sure the Holy See holds many artifacts but they are held as priceless sacred items that are dear to the Catholic Church and the entire realm of Christianity. Sure there are some unneeded things, BUT are they there to be greedy? or are they there to show how prosperous Christianity really is? Are they there to show stability, and success? The Pope is not only the sovereign of Vatican City, he is the Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, the image of Christianity to the world just as His Holiness the Dalai Lama is for Buddhism. Are you going to tell the Dalai Lama to sell all of his pricless relics as well? If you're trying to get the Vatican to do so, talk to the Office of the Dalai lama as well.

Also, talking about selling unnecessary things to give to charity. How about look at yourself? Maybe you're family just bought a new car, do you REALLY need THAT car and you couldn't settle for something cheaper so that other's could be fed, heck couldn't you sell that car and just walk wherever you go? Do you need those designer clothes instead of getting some from Wal-Mart and housing a homeless person? Do you seriously NEED that internet and cable television instead of using the money to donate to the AIDS cause? I could go on and on. But the fact is, we all have luxuries that most people of the world could only dream about. But we don't go selling all of it to feed the hungry. No, instead we throw ourselves FURTHER in debt to satisfy that want for something 'better-than'.

http://knowyourmeme.com/i/16546/original/220.jpg?1252251927
That is all.

Actually, no it's not.

]I'm actually quite shocked! From all the wonderful things the Universal Church has done,
Oh, yes. From killing and converting entire empires in the name of god, to destroying countless cultural heritages, to thousands of murders because people were gay, lesbians, cripples, had ADHD, autism, trans-gendered, born with birth defects, had leprosy, didn't harvest their wheat at an appropriate time, had sex, decided to be foreign, and much more, was oh so wonderful of them.

Sure the Holy See holds many artifacts but they are held as priceless sacred items that are dear to the Catholic Church and the entire realm of Christianity. Sure there are some unneeded things, BUT are they there to be greedy?
How about look at yourself? Maybe you're family just bought a new car, do you REALLY need THAT car and you couldn't settle for something cheaper so that other's could be fed, heck couldn't you sell that car and just walk wherever you go? Do you need those designer clothes instead of getting some from Wal-Mart and housing a homeless person?

a) My family is not responsible for thousands of deaths, rape, and numerous tragedy
b) A new car and some nice clothing =/= golden ceilings, marble domes laden with murals, tapestries bigger than my entire backyard, and sheets that cost more than my house which were all gained with undeserved money acquired through horrible acts. My family earned our money through hard work, and we didn't even have to hold the Spanish inquisition or Salem witch trials.

[Sith Lord 13]

Oh, yes. From killing and converting entire empires in the name of god, to destroying countless cultural heritages, to thousands of murders because people were gay, lesbians, cripples, had ADHD, autism, trans-gendered, born with birth defects, had leprosy, didn't harvest their wheat at an appropriate time, had sex, decided to be foreign, and much more, was oh so wonderful of them.

Source?


a) My family is not responsible for thousands of deaths, rape, and numerous tragedy
b) A new car and some nice clothing =/= golden ceilings, marble domes laden with murals, tapestries bigger than my entire backyard, and sheets that cost more than my house which were all gained with undeserved money acquired through horrible acts. My family earned our money through hard work, and we didn't even have to hold the Spanish inquisition or Salem witch trials.

Spanish Inquisition was done mostly by the King of Spain.

Salem Witch trails had nothing to do with the Roman Catholic Church, so they're irrelevant here.



I'd be happy with a law being passed that churches must pay tax because in general, it's an empire, a huge business. They take in millions of dollars, so put some tax on it to have it benefit the society. On top of the tax, the churches can decide to donate some money to whatever cause. I'd also say tax the Vatican, we'd get millions, probably billions from taxing the churches and the Vatican. Plenty of money to work with without selling the entire Vatican.

And who do you propose has the right to tax the Vatican? It's a sovereign state. The closest you could come is tariffs. As far as taxing churches, they're practically embassies of a foreign power. (NB: I'm referring to Roman Catholic churches) The political upheaval and riots triggered from such a move would be monumental. You'd set back diplomatic relations with predominately Catholic countries like Italy to an extreme degree.

[Dorsum Oppel]

Source?

The bible for some. I don't feel like going to find the source for the rest, but mentally retarded children were deemed as evil by the church because they were thought to be demons that replaced the original child, called a changeling. As were the physically handicapped. The bible states that cripples should not enter church as the are un-pure, and many were killed do to this. The wheat is also a bible reference, as it was a sin to not harvest it at a specified time (on sabbat, I think it was). All sin was punishable by death.

Witch trials and inquisition, I was just alluding to historical nefarious acts to drive my point home.

[Sith Lord 13]

The bible for some. I don't feel like going to find the source for the rest, but mentally retarded children were deemed as evil by the church because they were thought to be demons that replaced the original child, called a changeling. As were the physically handicapped. The bible states that cripples should not enter church as the are un-pure, and many were killed do to this. The wheat is also a bible reference, as it was a sin to not harvest it at a specified time (on sabbat, I think it was). All sin was punishable by death.

Witch trials and inquisition, I was just alluding to historical nefarious acts to drive my point home.

Most if not all of things you mentioned came either from the OT, which has nothing to do with the actions of the Catholic Church.

[Dorsum Oppel]

Most if not all of things you mentioned came either from the OT, which has nothing to do with the actions of the Catholic Church.

The OT?

[ray8806]

The Old Testament.

I will agree that some laws of the Old Testament(OT) had some very harsh consequences if you broke them. I cannot justify or condemn them for I wasn't there and don't know the entire situation...neither do you.

However, when Christ came he established a NEW covenant. Changed many things. Christ himself did many things that the Pharisees, the top level Jewish Priests, thought were in direct disobedience to "God's Law". What Christ was implementing wasn't a God of mindless violence and destruction, but one of love and compassion. The WHOLE Old Testament isn't about the laws and etc. it is about the relationship of Israel with God. No matter what the Israeli people did in disobedience to God, he still forgave them and was there. He never forsook them, all those years. That's what it's about. It's a long story of us with Christ. Though we may fail him SOOOO many times, he is still there to love us. It's a big metaphor.

AND you said the Bible is your source for the Catholic Church's action? I don't think so, as the Catholic Church was established near the very end of the Bible. So the things done in like the 1500's aren't in there.

Sure, the Universal Church has done some bad things. I will admit that. Some of the things that the Catholic Church has done in the past hasn't been the best of things. They've failed God just like ALL people have. If the WHOLE nation of Israel can fail God, then the Church can too. No one or thing is perfect in anything, except the Almighty Father himself. RELIGION IS FLAWED! Not because God is flawed, but because man is flawed.

The Catholic Church has had a bad past, but that is the PAST. Leave it alone. The Church today, is one of peace and charity.

What I'm saying is, lay off the Vatican and the Catholic Church. They've done more than this world that any one of you could dream of. Why focus on the Vatican? I'm sure the tapestries of the White House, or the many luxuries of the Presidency aren't needed but we have them, do we not? Any leader of ANY organization has luxuries, it is the pride and joy of the people of the organization. The reason why the US President gets to have all of those things is because of the US peoples' respect for that position. The reason why every national leader of the world has luxuries is for the same reason. The reason why His Holiness the Pope has his luxuries is because of the Catholics' respect for his office. A person that gets to lead a whole nation has a TOUGH position. Imagine that along with the burden of carrying a whole Church, MILLIONS if not BILLIONS of people and their souls, on your shoulders.

Why go after ONLY the Papacy?

[The Dark Lord]

The Catholic Church has had a bad past, but that is the PAST. Leave it alone. The Church today, is one of peace and charity.


The child abuse scandels were covered up by the current Pope, this is present and relevant, so don't play the holier than thou card

Why go after ONLY the Papacy?
Everyone needs the White House, not everyone needs the church/religion.

[Apparitions]

Best. Idea. Ever. I'd like to see that old fraud practise what he preaches and help others in this way. Will never, ever happen though as the Vatican and the Catholic Church are full of greedy, hypocritical people who would make sure that hell will freeze over before something like this ever happens. I think doing this would bring them straight back down to Earth and relieve them of their eternal smugness.

[INFERNO]

And who do you propose has the right to tax the Vatican? It's a sovereign state. The closest you could come is tariffs. As far as taxing churches, they're practically embassies of a foreign power. (NB: I'm referring to Roman Catholic churches) The political upheaval and riots triggered from such a move would be monumental. You'd set back diplomatic relations with predominately Catholic countries like Italy to an extreme degree.

It's not something I've thought through very much and taxing churches would cause riots, possibly wars.


RELIGION IS FLAWED! Not because God is flawed, but because man is flawed.

Christianity is a religion, god is part of Christianity. If religion is flawed, then Christianity is flawed and god is flawed.


The Catholic Church has had a bad past, but that is the PAST. Leave it alone. The Church today, is one of peace and charity.

The church may want to promote peace and charity but with the mounting evidence of the pedophiliac priests that are being covered up by the church despite evidence otherwise, that's not peaceful. For pedophilia, there are different typologies and more have been added. One of them that has been added is for cyber pedophilies for understandable reasons. However, another one that's been added long before cyber pedophiles were added was clerical pedophiles due to the numerous cases of priests being charged and/or convicted. But many of them are being protected by the church despite the church also releasing evidence of the pedophiliac acts priests have done.

There are many sources for this but here is ONE (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/25/opinion/25thur1.html) (the pope admits the cases yet doesn't plan to do any form of punishment).


The reason why His Holiness the Pope has his luxuries is because of the Catholics' respect for his office. A person that gets to lead a whole nation has a TOUGH position. Imagine that along with the burden of carrying a whole Church, MILLIONS if not BILLIONS of people and their souls, on your shoulders.

Churches are meant for places of worship and to seek advice or counsel from a priest to god. Despite this they receive massive amounts of money and their business empires grow. It's not meant to be a business but it is. The US president needs to have some control over the money of the country because his/her position involves using it. The church's has no need for the massive amounts of money it has. They may donate a bunch of it but look at many of the large churches or cathedrals, filled with stained glass and other expensive works. All those luxuries aren't required for practicing their belief.

[The Dark Lord]

Best. Idea. Ever. I'd like to see that old fraud practise what he preaches and help others in this way. Will never, ever happen though as the Vatican and the Catholic Church are full of greedy, hypocritical people who would make sure that hell will freeze over before something like this ever happens. I think doing this would bring them straight back down to Earth and relieve them of their eternal smugness.

Religious people are hypocrites? No I don't believe it!

It's not something I've thought through very much and taxing churches would cause riots, possibly wars.

I don't think enough people actually care about religion anymore that they would justify a war.

The church may want to promote peace and charity but with the mounting evidence of the pedophiliac priests that are being covered up by the church despite evidence otherwise, that's not peaceful. For pedophilia, there are different typologies and more have been added. One of them that has been added is for cyber pedophilies for understandable reasons. However, another one that's been added long before cyber pedophiles were added was clerical pedophiles due to the numerous cases of priests being charged and/or convicted. But many of them are being protected by the church despite the church also releasing evidence of the pedophiliac acts priests have done.

There are many sources for this but here is ONE (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/25/opinion/25thur1.html) (the pope admits the cases yet doesn't plan to do any form of punishment).


The key thing about these cases, is that the current Pope was the one who covered them up! This man is an hypocrite of the highest order, a disgusting human being who would rather safeguard the church's reputation than bring those bastards to justice, His position is, in my view, untenable and if he truely believed in principle, would step aside for a true catholic.

[darkwoon]

The bible for some. I don't feel like going to find the source for the rest, but mentally retarded children were deemed as evil by the church because they were thought to be demons that replaced the original child, called a changeling. As were the physically handicapped. The bible states that cripples should not enter church as the are un-pure, and many were killed do to this. The wheat is also a bible reference, as it was a sin to not harvest it at a specified time (on sabbat, I think it was). All sin was punishable by death.

Just as a side note, most, if not all, pre-modern times civilizations believed in all sorts of demonic possessions, haunting spirits or counter-intuitive traditions and crafted very severe laws against all kinds of "social deviants" using the authority of god(s) to enforce it.

If we're going to sell the Vatican because people made such things in the name of the Catholic faith, then we can probably start organizing a huge capital cities sales :).

Churches are meant for places of worship and to seek advice or counsel from a priest to god. Despite this they receive massive amounts of money and their business empires grow. It's not meant to be a business but it is. The US president needs to have some control over the money of the country because his/her position involves using it. The church's has no need for the massive amounts of money it has. They may donate a bunch of it but look at many of the large churches or cathedrals, filled with stained glass and other expensive works. All those luxuries aren't required for practicing their belief.
If fidels chose to spend their money in luxuries for their synagogues/churches/mosques/temples/whatever else, that's their own choice. I'm not sure how much the US government gives to churches - I was so far under the impression that Jefferson's "wall between the Church and the State" was still the policy followed.
I also wonder why you are only speaking about churches there, BTW. That's obviously a phenomen that is widespread in most religious movements, but I saw nobody here suggesting selling the treasures of Meccah or Jerusalem...

Best. Idea. Ever. I'd like to see that old fraud practise what he preaches and help others in this way. Will never, ever happen though as the Vatican and the Catholic Church are full of greedy, hypocritical people who would make sure that hell will freeze over before something like this ever happens. I think doing this would bring them straight back down to Earth and relieve them of their eternal smugness.
Err... There are probably more than one billion Catholics across the world. Don't you think a lot of those are honest people who have the right to keep what they consider a holy sanctuary?
A religious movement can't be summarized by its directing elits alone, just as a country can't be summarized by its government.

[ray8806]

The child abuse scandels were covered up by the current Pope, this is present and relevant, so don't play the holier than thou card

When did I say I was holier than anyone here? i don't recall me saying that ever! No one is better than anyone. Heck, I'm not even Catholic!


Everyone needs the White House, not everyone needs the church/religion.

Can't the president do the same job he does now in a shack? I don't see why not? If he has his equipment there, why can't he do the same job?

Christianity is a religion, god is part of Christianity. If religion is flawed, then Christianity is flawed and god is flawed.

You're misunderstanding my statement. Read more into my statement and it may make sense to you.

And about the pedophilia thing, I understand all of your point, I do. I don't condone such disgusting and horrific acts in any way, shape, or form. It is sad, it truly is. But even our government covers up bad things. So the government won't look bad. Some deal there. A government, or governing body, cannot release ALL the details of everything. It wouldn't be a pretty sight. And actually, I'm sure that most of us don't know half of the whole picture of those accusations of priests being pedophiles. BUT, if so. How many cases are there in which the priest have been convicted/there was significant evidence for them to be convicted? I'm sure if you compared those to the total number of priests on this earth, the proportion would be low. Just like not ALL politicians are crooks. Just a few bad ones, make ALL look bad. It only takes one to screw things up. One weak link in the chain. Also, I already said that no one is perfect. Everyone fails God in some way or another.

[The Dark Lord]

And about the pedophilia thing, I understand all of your point, I do. I don't condone such disgusting and horrific acts in any way, shape, or form. It is sad, it truly is. But even our government covers up bad things. So the government won't look bad. Some deal there. A government, or governing body, cannot release ALL the details of everything. It wouldn't be a pretty sight. And actually, I'm sure that most of us don't know half of the whole picture of those accusations of priests being pedophiles. BUT, if so. How many cases are there in which the priest have been convicted/there was significant evidence for them to be convicted? I'm sure if you compared those to the total number of priests on this earth, the proportion would be low. Just like not ALL politicians are crooks. Just a few bad ones, make ALL look bad. It only takes one to screw things up. One weak link in the chain. Also, I already said that no one is perfect. Everyone fails God in some way or another.

I don't give a flying fuck whether there was significant evidence or not, The Pope was personally involved in covering up the scandels. These people are in positions where they can build meaningful relationships and earn the trust of children, and if they take advantage of them they should be named and shamed and not safe guarded. There is a difference between a corrupt politician and a sex offender

[INFERNO]

The key thing about these cases, is that the current Pope was the one who covered them up! This man is an hypocrite of the highest order, a disgusting human being who would rather safeguard the church's reputation than bring those bastards to justice, His position is, in my view, untenable and if he truely believed in principle, would step aside for a true catholic.

You can dislike the pope all you want, however, it's an example to show the that in modern times the church isn't all about peace and love as previously stated.


I also wonder why you are only speaking about churches there, BTW. That's obviously a phenomen that is widespread in most religious movements, but I saw nobody here suggesting selling the treasures of Meccah or Jerusalem...

Simple, that's what this thread is about. If it were about selling Jerusalem, I wouldn't be commenting on selling some other area as it's irrelevant.


Err... There are probably more than one billion Catholics across the world. Don't you think a lot of those are honest people who have the right to keep what they consider a holy sanctuary?
A religious movement can't be summarized by its directing elits alone, just as a country can't be summarized by its government.[/QUOTE]


You're misunderstanding my statement. Read more into my statement and it may make sense to you.

I did read into it and that is what I got out of it. Can you explain the meaning you intended to convey rather than dance around it?


And actually, I'm sure that most of us don't know half of the whole picture of those accusations of priests being pedophiles.

True, each case would be unique but since none of us have access to more in-depth information other than what the media has provided, it's no use to say we don't much of the cases.

I'm sure if you compared those to the total number of priests on this earth, the proportion would be low.

There are more and more cases emerging about this so there is much speculation that there are many cases not reported. But onto your point, the rate may be low, but it was enough to require a new typology, new theories and to constantly allow for more and more cases to emerge.

Many if not all of the pedophiliac priests who are caught admit to having numerous victims but this is ignored when you say the total proportion is low. Suppose that there are 100,000 priests and 1,000 of them are caught as pedophiles. Since each has more than one victim, let's be very conservative and say only 3, there are no longer 1,000 victims that have to be considered.


Just like not ALL politicians are crooks. Just a few bad ones, make ALL look bad. It only takes one to screw things up. One weak link in the chain. Also, I already said that no one is perfect. Everyone fails God in some way or another.

There is only one pope at a time and the current pope is trying to cover up and deny much of it. You can have thousands of politicians existing at once but you only have one pope existing at a time so the analogy you gave doesn't fit.

[Apparitions]

Religious people are hypocrites? No I don't believe it!


Who'd have thunk it, eh? :D

[Perseus]

Raynumbersgalore, the Catholic Church has done many wrongs in the past. The Crusades is just one of many examples. The Catholic Church is corrupt.

[scuba steve]

Raynumbersgalore, the Catholic Church has done many wrongs in the past. The Crusades is just one of many examples. The Catholic Church is corrupt.

wasn't that bad, they just wanted the "Holy Land" to be in charge of the Christians, plus they got whopped several times so they learned their lesson.

[Perseus]

wasn't that bad, they just wanted the "Holy Land" to be in charge of the Christians, plus they got whopped several times so they learned their lesson.

A lot of Jews were killed in Europe cause of the Crusades.

[Continuum]

A lot of Jews were killed in Europe cause of the Crusades.

Not to mention a lot of devoted christians died too.

[dead]

Not to mention a lot of devoted christians died too.

I wonder why :rolleyes: