selflessness

[sheetalstyle]

How often do you reach out to the needy ones without expecting selfish returns ?

[Kaius]

:arrow2: TWPR

I do it every time i help someone. I don't ever expect anything. That's really the reason im here, to help.

[Patchy]

I do it with friends a lot. It's nice to be nice. You never know when your going to need someone to help you out.

[ShatteredWings]

There is no such thing as a selfless act.

You will always get something in return, even if it's the "good feeling" of helping someone

[Sage]

There is no such thing as a selfless act.

You will always get something in return, even if it's the "good feeling" of helping someone

This. Everything is selfish, just to varying degrees.

[CaptainObvious]

There is no such thing as a selfless act.

You will always get something in return, even if it's the "good feeling" of helping someone

This. Everything is selfish, just to varying degrees.

I don't think this is a valid point of view. The vast majority of help at least somewhat rewards the helper, but I think it's incorrect to dismiss out of hand the possibility of truly selfless acts.

[steve1234]

I wish I was more selfless. I like to imagine myself as a really charitable person, always helping out those who are disadvantaged, but I haven't really done anything like this. Im quite selfish. Hopefully in the future I will do something, as I do want to.

Many people help others do it for that "good feeling of helping someone". I don't think there is anything wrong with that, as you have helped someone else out, so you deserve to get that feeling.

[ShatteredWings]

I don't think this is a valid point of view. The vast majority of help at least somewhat rewards the helper, but I think it's incorrect to dismiss out of hand the possibility of truly selfless acts.

give me an example.

And yes, this thread is probably going to end up in ROTW :P

[Iron Man]

Every single time I help someone. I don`t ever expect anything in return.

[Sage]

Every single time I help someone. I don`t ever expect anything in return.

Why do you help them in the first place?

Also, given the nature of all of sheetalstyle's posts, I'm pretty sure this is a bot or something.

[Dorsum Oppel]

I only help people when I care about them. Even then, I enjoy the feeling of making someone who I care about happy. I however, care about very few people. If I comfort anyone else, it's to get them to shut up/ so I don't look like an ass.

[Aves]

I help people without expecting anything in return. It makes me feel better about myself, though.

[deadpie]

I don't help people much anymore because I don't even get a simple "thank you". Plus it seems like everyone I help usually backstabs me anyways.

[Iron Man]

Why do you help them in the first place?

Also, given the nature of all of sheetalstyle's posts, I'm pretty sure this is a bot or something.

If someone needs help, I help. Regardless of if I like them or not. Just doing my duty as a human.

[Shortkid]

Not nearly often enough. I'm working on that.

[Dorsum Oppel]

If someone needs help, I help. Regardless of if I like them or not. Just doing my duty as a human.

That does not answer the question of what your motivation is, just the conditions.

[enzenzz]

i do it when the situation presents itself, but i dont actively seek out ppl in need.

[CaptainObvious]

give me an example.

And yes, this thread is probably going to end up in ROTW :P

A person who does something with no direct reward to themselves out of a sense of moral duty detached from the possibility of metaphysical reward. How about that category?

[Sage]

A person who does something with no direct reward to themselves out of a sense of moral duty detached from the possibility of metaphysical reward. How about that category?

Not fulfilling that duty would make them feel bad, and so they do it to avoid that feeling.

[Jenna.]

i do it when the situation presents itself, but i dont actively seek out ppl in need.

This is how I am. If I see someone right around me that needs help or whatever, I'll do it. But I won't go out of my way to help people. Half the time I never even get a thank you anyway.

[Iron Man]

That does not answer the question of what your motivation is, just the conditions.

Who needs a motivation to help someone in need?

[Sage]

Who needs a motivation to help someone in need?

Everyone. Saying you're doing it out of some profound sense of duty is still a motivation in and of itself. You'd likely feel bad if you didn't fulfill that sense of duty, and so you you help people to avoid that.

[Dorsum Oppel]

Who needs a motivation to help someone in need?

Everyone needs a motivation for everything. No exceptions.

[CaptainObvious]

Yeah, this is a debate now. :arrow: RoTW

Not fulfilling that duty would make them feel bad, and so they do it to avoid that feeling.

You cannot simply say that is true with a wave of a hand. Not everyone's morality depends on a sense of reward. Decisions are not linked to emotions in everyone's mind. Most people's maybe. Making the categorical statement is not legitimate, though.

[Dorsum Oppel]

Yeah, this is a debate now. :arrow: RoTW



You cannot simply say that is true with a wave of a hand. Not everyone's morality depends on a sense of reward. Decisions are not linked to emotions in everyone's mind. Most people's maybe. Making the categorical statement is not legitimate, though.

No, not morality. Everything. Weather you realize it or not, you have a motivation hinted on by underlying rewards that dictate everything you do in a subconscious manner.

[CaptainObvious]

No, not morality. Everything. Weather you realize it or not, you have a motivation hinted on by underlying rewards that dictate everything you do in a subconscious manner.

Again, not something you can merely state as if it is truth. That's a much more complex philosophical question than you make it seem, both the extent to which those things influence choice and the overlap of "underlying reward" and the kind of emotional gratification that would normally be thought of when discussing selflessness.

[ShatteredWings]

I help people without expecting anything in return. It makes me feel better about myself, though.
That's your motivation then.

A person who does something with no direct reward to themselves out of a sense of moral duty detached from the possibility of metaphysical reward. How about that category?
Not fulfilling that duty would make them feel bad, and so they do it to avoid that feeling.
Seconding what tim said.
Also, if it's say... this 'moral duty' was attached to military service, there would be consequences to not doing this 'good deed'

Yeah, this is a debate now. :arrow: RoTW
I called it

You cannot simply say that is true with a wave of a hand. Not everyone's morality depends on a sense of reward. Decisions are not linked to emotions in everyone's mind. Most people's maybe. Making the categorical statement is not legitimate, though.
I dont think this is a debate about morality, but human nature.
We are selfish beings. Humans are ANIMALS regardless of how highly we want to think of ourselves.
People who seem the most "selfless" have moral beliefs that push them to do things. If they didn't, they would likely hate themselves.
Ultimately we have instincts of self preservation (no comment on suicide atm), and 'selfless' actions counter this.
Basically, we have to have a motivation to do something. Moral obligations are a motivation, and therefore make any action deemed 'selfless' selfish as you're fulfilling said obligation.

Again, not something you can merely state as if it is truth. That's a much more complex philosophical question than you make it seem, both the extent to which those things influence choice and the overlap of "underlying reward" and the kind of emotional gratification that would normally be thought of when discussing selflessness.
No, we're debating human nature.

[steve1234]

i do it when the situation presents itself, but i dont actively seek out ppl in need.

I am also like this as well.

Also, my first post on this thread, I said 'i wish I was more selfish'. I meant 'more selfless'. Ive corrected it now ;D

[CaptainObvious]

I called it

Would you like a medal or a monument? :P


I dont think this is a debate about morality, but human nature.
We are selfish beings. Humans are ANIMALS regardless of how highly we want to think of ourselves.
People who seem the most "selfless" have moral beliefs that push them to do things. If they didn't, they would likely hate themselves.
Ultimately we have instincts of self preservation (no comment on suicide atm), and 'selfless' actions counter this.
Basically, we have to have a motivation to do something. Moral obligations are a motivation, and therefore make any action deemed 'selfless' selfish as you're fulfilling said obligation.

This is an interesting question. Does every single thing we do arise out of some obligation we feel? Obviously once I have decided that something is the right decision, making any decision other than that would be contradictory to my internal value system and I would be distressed on some level that I would not be making the decision I deem right. However, to say "we do things that we think are right because to do something we think is wrong would distress us" and to therefore then draw the conclusion that everything we do is selfish seems to me to overgeneralize the concept of selfishness. If the reasoning that arrives at a proper decision is not selfish, I don't see why choosing that decision is then selfish merely because to do otherwise would be untrue to oneself. That seems a bad use of the concept to me.

Regardless of that, though, my easy rebuttal is that there are definitely some people for whom truly selfless acts are possible even under your (and Tim's, etc.) very broad definition of what makes an act selfish: psychopaths. Psychopaths in the truest sense have no drive other than self advancement, and no morality to reward or punish them for their moral decisions: a psychopath doing anything that does not directly benefit them would be selfless by definition. Of course, this possibly shows the extreme rarity of a truly selfless act since a psychopath doing anything that has no direct self benefit is extremely rare.

No, we're debating human nature.

Debating human nature is a philosophical debate.

[deadpie]

If someone needs help, I help. Regardless of if I like them or not. Just doing my duty as a human.

So that means you'd help a rapist have a place to live if he needed help when police are chasing him.

That means if Hitler asked for your help to kill some jews you would do it.

Why? Oh, it's your duty as a human.

[ShatteredWings]

Regardless of that, though, my easy rebuttal is that there are definitely some people for whom truly selfless acts are possible even under your (and Tim's, etc.) very broad definition of what makes an act selfish: psychopaths.
Yes this a nit pick but I'm entirely serious.
"Broad" definition?
Typically, broad ideas/definitions encompass a variety of views, rather than one or two.

Psychopaths in the truest sense have no drive other than self advancement, and no morality to reward or punish them for their moral decisions: a psychopath doing anything that does not directly benefit them would be selfless by definition. Of course, this possibly shows the extreme rarity of a truly selfless act since a psychopath doing anything that has no direct self benefit is extremely rare.
Um...
Self advancement is a motivation. Did you not understand this?
And your counter example basically refuted your argument for me.

Debating human nature is a philosophical debate.
And your point? this is ramblings of the (not so) wise, and it's on topic.

[CaptainObvious]

Yes this a nit pick but I'm entirely serious.
"Broad" definition?
Typically, broad ideas/definitions encompass a variety of views, rather than one or two.

Selfishness is generally not understood to extend as far as you take it in this argument, thus broad. There is more than one way to use a word.


Um...
Self advancement is a motivation. Did you not understand this?
And your counter example basically refuted your argument for me.

But it didn't, since that was merely a corner case that's simple to argue. And "rare" does not mean "none".

In any case, you're saying that every human decision is motivated by reward, which is a proposition that you cannot simply make. Also, saying that anything that gives someone any manner of reward is automatically selfish is not necessarily the case. What are we saying, that the person is forecasting the reward when making the decision and therefore choosing that way? That seems mightily similar to a circular argument to me.

And your point? this is ramblings of the (not so) wise, and it's on topic.

My point is merely that this overlaps philosophical questions. That was always my point. Who said anything about this being off topic?

[ShatteredWings]

Selfishness is generally not understood to extend as far as you take it in this argument, thus broad. There is more than one way to use a word.
Selfless (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/selfless) = motivated by no concern for oneself
Selfish (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/selfish) = Concerned ... only with oneself

How is this a broad definition? I'm taking the term literally.
Do you have another definition?

In any case, you're saying that every human decision is motivated by reward, which is a proposition that you cannot simply make. Also, saying that anything that gives someone any manner of reward is automatically selfish is not necessarily the case. What are we saying, that the person is forecasting the reward when making the decision and therefore choosing that way? That seems mightily similar to a circular argument to me.
Give me a counter example that you don't refute yourself and we might get somewhere.

A reward (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/reward) is "A satisfying return or result," which includes that "good feeling"

Being your own reward, I would agree, would qualify as more selfless than being rewarded by something physical, but that doesn't mean it's selfless. It's just more selfless than selfish.

My point is merely that this overlaps philosophical questions. That was always my point. Who said anything about this being off topic?
Ok then.

[The Dark Lord]

There is no such thing as a selfless act, there is always motivation to do it to gain something, that is very basic human nature

[sheetalstyle]

yes U rite