Edited Pledge of Allegiance

[Antares]

What do you think of this:

I pledge allegiance
To the flag, of the United States of America
And to the republic, for which it stands
One Nation [-]under god[/-]
With liberty and justice for most.

[Kuervo]

reminds me of a movie i saw in 7th grade, they said the pledge allegiance without the "Under God",

[Shortkid]

ok by me.

[Death]

About time America had a better and less narrow-minded allegiance. I mean seriously, how stupid must one be to believe that everyone in an entire country is monotheistic?

[Sith Lord 13]

I'm for any pledge with BB code in it.

[Continuum]

fine by me. It needs another statement to complete the gap though. Like, One nation NOT under God?

[Peace God]

i still think we should do "under smog"

[Scarface]

I certainly didn't like the line myself, because I am an atheist. I would just prefer it without, but I'm sure that it will be contested :rolleyes:

[Zephyr]

I fixed the strike code for you John, lol

----------------------

I've never liked saying it with under god,
I've always been an Atheist.
In high school I figured,
If Christian kids are allowed to skip class when evolution is being taught,
I should be allowed to not participate in the Pledge of Allegiance.
Fair is fair :rolleyes:

Nice version though.
Justice for most... nice touch, lol.

[Jess]

I don't care if there's a under god or not. it just sounds odd without it but I'm still okay with it

[Bougainvillea]

I don't even say the pledge. I put my hands behind my back, and give my own appreciation. :/

But I'd much rather it be without under god.

[Antares]

Comment: The new Pledge of Allegiance

I pledge allegiance to and wrap myself in the flag of the United States
Against Anything Un-American and to the Republicans for which it stands,
two nations, under Jesus, rich against poor, with curtailed liberty and
justice for all except blacks, homosexuals, women who want abortions,
Communists, welfare queens, treehuggers, feminazis, illegal immigrants,
children of illegal immigrants, and you if you don't watch your step.

by Matt Groening


i like this one much better :P

[Perseus]

----------------------

I've never liked saying it with under god,
I've always been an Atheist.
In high school I figured,
If Christian kids are allowed to skip class when evolution is being taught,
I should be allowed to not participate in the Pledge of Allegiance.
Fair is fair :rolleyes:

Nice version though.
Justice for most... nice touch, lol.

Wait a second, I didn't know they could do that, even though it isn't contradicting the beliefs, but this off topic.

I like it, except for most is random, but true.

[Jess]

I don't even say the pledge. I put my hands behind my back, and give my own appreciation. :/

But I'd much rather it be without under god.

ah yes I do that too. I still stand up and put my right hand over my heart but I never say the pledge out loud with the others anymore (started this year...)

[Severus Snape]

What do you think of this:

I pledge allegiance
To the flag, of the United States of America
And to the republic, for which it stands
One Nation [-]under god[/-]
With liberty and justice for most.

That's the original version, and thus the best. These Christians can keep their revisionist 1950s version if they want it, but I'm not going to honor my country and include the name of an imaginary fairy sky man.

[-]in god we trust[/-]

on the currency sounds good too. I'm in favor of an "At god we laugh" version if anything.

[Antares]

Well actually, the original is:


I pledge allegiance to my Flag,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

October 11, 1892

http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/flag/1bfc_pledge.html

[Iron Man]

Works for me. Who does "...justice for most" apply to though?

[Antares]

Works for me. Who does "...justice for most" apply to though?

Its just to acknowledge the fact that we don't all have equal liberties and justices.

Some people within the country don't get the liberty and justice that the country says they get

[Iron Man]

This is true, but tragic.

[Severus Snape]

Well actually, the original is:


I pledge allegiance to my Flag,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

October 11, 1892

http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/flag/1bfc_pledge.html

That's what I'm saying.

[laker]

I think it should stay in there because this country was founded by people who believe in god. And if u don't believe just don't say it.

[Bougainvillea]

I think it should stay in there because this country was founded by people who believe in god. And if u don't believe just don't say it.

That kind of suggests that the people should give it unquestioning support. Which is pretty much what the founders of this country was against.

[Sage]

I disagree with "liberty and justice for most". If that's all the nation stands for, it would give justification for politicians and social activists to be lazy and apathetic. Things like the pledge, to some degree, should be idealistic- While it says "one nation indivisible", it's not actually indivisible- Politics are polarized as all hell and a few nukes would probably divide the country. Regardless, it's a good ideal to hold.

As for "under god", I think it should be removed. How about, "One nation over god"?

[Magus]

(fishing-free)
I am really finding it difficult to understand this concept.

Why would you want that to be removed?
Any explanation is, of course, appreciated.

[huginnmuninn]

fine by me. It needs another statement to complete the gap though. Like, One nation NOT under God?

i dont mind taking "under god" out but isnt that doing the same thing "under god" does by putting your beliefs in it.

[Amnesiac]

I endorse this pledge.

I'd be more happy with no pledge, but some things are just never gonna happen. There's no way either party will do something as politically incorrect as take down the pledge to appease us minority atheists and social liberals.

I think it should stay in there because this country was founded by people who believe in god. And if u don't believe just don't say it.

Yeah, they believed in god, but not the same god most Americans are familiar with today. The founding fathers were staunch supporters of separation of church and state, and there are those who say "but that's not in the Constitution"... well, the Treaty of Tripoli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_tripoli), from 1796 (five years after the Bill of Rights was ratified), says, and I quote:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Under the supremacy clause of the constitution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_Clause), treaties are equal in power to the constitution, which means Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli officially makes the United States a non-Christian nation. Therefore, there's no need and probably no legal standing to put an endorsement of God in the pledge of allegiance.

Also, what if we changed "under God" to "under no God" and told you to just "not say it"? I'm sure you'd be offended, which is why you can't use that argument on atheists. It's not fair when the majority tells us to ignore things we don't like, just because they're the majority. That's not what an equal nation is supposed to stand for; it makes us feel isolated and left out.

[Death]

I think it should stay in there because this country was founded by people who believe in god. And if u don't believe just don't say it.

But the founders are no longer alive, so of what relevance are their views to today?

[Ender]

What do you think of this:

I pledge allegiance
To the flag, of the United States of America
And to the republic, for which it stands
One Nation [-]under god[/-]
With liberty and justice for most.
much better!! :usflag:

[Sage]

I think it should stay in there because this country was founded by people who believe in god. And if u don't believe just don't say it.

The founders also believed in slavery.

[Bougainvillea]

We really should have kept that. :rolleyes:

[The Batman]

I'll be the first to post it's not a big deal it's not like you'll be saying the pledge everyday after high school. In fact I haven't had to say it since like a year before I graduated.

[Church]

How bout we not be a bunch of commies and keep the pledge the same? If it upsets you so much just don't say it or hey, move out of America if you cant even be loyal to your homeland.

[Death]

How about you stop being a "commy" and allow the pledge to be changed? If it upsets you so much, you move out and see it both ways. And on what planet does disliking a pledge make you disloyal? Do you even know the definition of the word?

[Church]

'Cause I have had family members die fighting for this country and I'm sure they weren't so butthurt bout saying a little line bout having God watching over your country, if you dont want a divine being watching over the safety of your country, troops etc your just stupid

[Death]

How do you know that, that doesn't apply to me too? And what you're ignoring is that wanting the pledge to be changed is no more petty than wanting it to not be changed. Firstly, please stop insulting atheism, and secondly, don't be short-sighted - see it from both perspectives.

[Church]

I ain't gonna look at it from both perspectives, this is one nation UNDER GOD. I'm damn proud everyday in JROTC I pledge to the flag while wearing Army Greens.

[Death]

Well that only goes to show your immaturity. If you are not willing to even acknowledge the other side (especially since what you're saying applies to both), then why are you on a debate forum?

[Magus]

'Cause I have had family members die fighting for this country and I'm sure they weren't so butthurt bout saying a little line bout having God watching over your country, if you dont want a divine being watching over the safety of your country, troops etc your just stupid

Finally, I got my answer to my previous question aka post no.24.

[Church]

I'm supporting my side, thats a pretty big part of a debate, according to your profile your from Britain so why you even care about the Pledge?

[Death]

I may be British, but that doesn't mean I don't care about other countries. Also, supporting your side doesn't mean ignoring everyone else's points. Because again, everything you said applies to both sides.

[Church]

So the other sides point is they dont want divine intervention for their country's safety and the safety of its people and troops? I dont even know why I get in debates on this forum with atheist, most teenage 'atheist' are just rebels wanting some attention

[Death]

Now you're just being plain immature, and anti-atheist. We are not trying to ruin the country by getting rid of divine intervention. Are you so short sighted that you think that an all-powerful God would care if "God" was taken out of its pledge? And if you are not willing to accept the other side's points, then you aren't debating; you are only trolling. Grow up.

[Church]

Well why should we change the pledge to appeal to the atheist when they're more Christians than atheist, its really selfish to want it to appeal to you when your a minority when it comes to religion. Also I dare any Atheist to walk up to one of the proud soldiers in the middle east and tell him there is no God watching over him and and friends, a God that wants him to get home to his kids and family, I fucking dare you to do that.

[Death]

I never said we should change the pledge; I only said that there's no greater reason to keep the pledge the same than there is to change it. Also, I get the picture that you're trying to threaten me, and I don't take that lightly. It's obvious that you've completely misunderstood what I've been saying. Besides, you are effectively insulting the soldiers here. If you think that they are all religious and that they are bigots who respond with hostility towards people expressing their beliefs, then you are wrong. Many of the soldiers won't be scum like you're effectively suggesting.

[Church]

Boy I aint threatening anyone, and dont you think most soldiers have a belief? I know when I enlist next year and if I get shipped over seas I want God keeping me safe so I can see my family again. I'm in JROTC I have seen and talked to veterans who have seen their friends killed in front of them, limps blown off and everyone said thank god I'm alive, he was watching out for me and I pray everyday for the men killed. If you cant respect that or God you are mislead

[Death]

Well, you would want a God to keep you safe, wouldn't you? But unfortunately, the majority of soldiers are fucked anyway, even if they aren't killed. Why? Did God let that happen? Also, kindly don't imply that atheists are misled. There is absolutely no evidence that God exists (although I'm not saying that believing is wrong), so how can you assume that those who don't believe in him are misled? And funnily enough, the majority of the world is not Christian. I find your anti-atheistic nature insulting and childish. But coming from you, that's unfortunately no surprise.

[Church]

Man do I run into to many kids like you. I can probably make a pretty good guess about you right now. Your family is somewhere in the middle class, you never worked a true day of hard work, never been to a church or attended regular, tend to go with the flow etc or if not you like to consider yourself 'different'

You aint special boy, get your head out of your ass.

[Death]

And I run into too many kids like you too, but unlike you, I don't moan about it. Get a grip. Also, I have gone to church (I used to believe in God), and my family does work thankyou very much. The fact that you are making assumptions about my family simply because you are too immature to handle refutal shows that you are just an anti-atheistic troll. Everything that you have said about me is untrue, so grow up and start debating maturely. Oh, and I don't consider myself any more different than anyone else. Boy, have you gotten the wrong end of the stick...

Besides, I thought that you said the atheists are in the minority. So make your mind up.

[Church]

I aint immature, and your right I dont like Atheist, most of em are smug asses who think they're better cause they dont 'conform' etc. Also I didnt say your family doesnt work I said you, you probably never worked hard for shit in your life, you probably just sit on your ass all day on forums like these. Either way I'm getting tired of arguing on a thread, if you want to talk message me.

[Death]

I aint immature, and your right I dont like Atheist,

The two parts of the quoted section contradict each other.

most of em are smug asses who think they're better cause they dont 'conform' etc.

Thankyou very much. You've just proven my case about your bigotry and immaturity. So you admit you anti-atheism then. Well, that only reflects badly on your personality.

Also I didnt say your family doesnt work I said you, you probably never worked hard for shit in your life, you probably just sit on your ass all day on forums like these.

Firstly, I've gotten several As and my teachers all compliment me on my performance in school; that's work. I'm fifteen, and am obviously not going to go to adult work yet, am I? The fact that you've gone from "debating" to bashing me due to my work is just stupid. Again, grow up. Oh, and I joined in 2009. I've done many other things besides contributing to forums. You obviously know nothing about me, so don't try guessing.

Either way I'm getting tired of arguing on a thread, if you want to talk message me.

Tired of what? Refutal? Besides, why don't you want your posts seen? Don't want people to see your anti-atheistic and personal-bashing nature? Come on, we can discuss this here, like mature people, can we not?

[Church]

I dont care if people think I'm bashing you etc, people can think whatever they want of me I dont care, hell I just checked my rep and someone said no one likes me as a negative rep and I literally laughed out loud, your words dont get to me so yea w/e, I justt think for the better of the thread we should talk in messages so we dont flood up the thread.

[Death]

I dont care if people think I'm bashing you etc,

Well of course you won't. Why would a basher care? It's just at first, I thought you were better than that. Maybe I was wrong.

people can think whatever they want of me I dont care, hell I just checked my rep and someone said no one likes me as a negative rep and I literally laughed out loud,

At last, an opinion that I can actually respect. Holy shit, to an extent, I might even agree.

your words dont get to me

Because you've ignored them? You're not supposed to do that in a debate.

so yea w/e, I justt think for the better of the thread we should talk in messages so we dont flood up the thread.

Why does flooding up the thread matter? Unless it's the anti-atheistic comments and wildly untrue personal attacks you've left behind...

[Church]

Its rude to flood up a thread also the admins dont like it, so just shut it in this thread and if you wanna talk message me, if you really want people to see me 'bash' screen shot our message and post em, I dont care.

[Death]

Ruder than what you've said about me and atheists despite an obvious lack of provocation? Besides, I want to get back on-topic now. So any reasons that you or anyone else has to support/go against the argument (mature ones this time)?

[Delusion15]

Ahh the old allegiance debate interesting, but the one above is better and hilarious.

Yes the pledge should be changed. The forefathers whole point to this country was religious freedom



I agree with deschain about the most part, I get the joke but still... lol

/ps I like you death but you should know that people like him will just keep shaking there heads and saying no so there is no real reason to keep debating... Just saying

[Church]

Well sorry I aint gonna read a post by some 15 year old in Britain and be like well gee shucks maybe God isnt real cause this kid said so

[Death]

Well sorry I aint gonna read a post by some 15 year old in Britain and be like well gee shucks maybe God isnt real cause this kid said so

See, you can't debate and you are a bigot. And even after I steer it back on topic, you start trolling again. Pfft.

Ahh the old allegiance debate interesting, but the one above is better and hilarious.

I agree with deschain about the most part, I get the joke but still... lol

I agree too. To be honest, I don't really care that much whether it goes or not. But it's fun debating it.

/ps I like you death but you should know that people like him will just keep shaking there heads and saying no so there is no real reason to keep debating... Just saying

Yeah, I kinda learnt that the hard way. Still, noted, and thanks.

[Jamie]

This would be swell to introduce, along with bringing back the ol' Belamy salute.

http://newsblogging.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/american-school-children-bellamy-salute.jpg

Since this would piss off Christians anyway, why not just go ahead and end it with an old fashioned bible-burning?

:P

[Death]

^^LOL. That's kind of funny, but also disturbing at the same time, if you know what I mean.

[Jamie]

I think it should stay in there because this country was founded by people who believe in god. And if u don't believe just don't say it.
Thomas Jefferson (author of The Declaration of Independence/3rd President of The United States), wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association (http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html) in response to one he had recently received, you may find it interesting. Specifically, this part:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State

But let's go a little further, see the Tripoli Treaty (http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html).

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Edit: I just now noticed another member had made a very similar post, anyways, I'll leave this here.

[CaptainObvious]

First, some housekeeping: I've had enough of personal attacks and ad hominem arguments in this thread. I don't want to see any more. And that goes for everyone: if someone personally attacks you, report it. Do not respond with attacks of your own.

That said, back to your regularly scheduled debating...

How bout we not be a bunch of commies and keep the pledge the same? If it upsets you so much just don't say it or hey, move out of America if you cant even be loyal to your homeland.

America was founded by those running from a state-established religion, among other things. The idea that someone must be Christian, or express Christian beliefs, to be loyal to their homeland would horrify America's founders and is possibly the most un-American thing you could ever propose.

'Cause I have had family members die fighting for this country and I'm sure they weren't so butthurt bout saying a little line bout having God watching over your country, if you dont want a divine being watching over the safety of your country, troops etc your just stupid

So why be so butthurt about not "saying a little line", if that's all it is?

Because that's not all it is. To say "one nation under God" implies that one believes in God, and atheists do not believe in God. That's like asking you to call America "one nation under Allah" - you wouldn't do it, right? So why do you think atheists should be forced to do the same? America was founded on letting people believe what they want; forcing anyone to state a belief in any particular God is about as un-American as it gets.

I ain't gonna look at it from both perspectives, this is one nation UNDER GOD. I'm damn proud everyday in JROTC I pledge to the flag while wearing Army Greens.

There's no point in debating if you're just restating your belief.

So the other sides point is they dont want divine intervention for their country's safety and the safety of its people and troops? I dont even know why I get in debates on this forum with atheist, most teenage 'atheist' are just rebels wanting some attention

No, the other side's point is that they don't believe God exists and don't want to have to say that they do. Simple as that.

Well why should we change the pledge to appeal to the atheist when they're more Christians than atheist, its really selfish to want it to appeal to you when your a minority when it comes to religion. Also I dare any Atheist to walk up to one of the proud soldiers in the middle east and tell him there is no God watching over him and and friends, a God that wants him to get home to his kids and family, I fucking dare you to do that.

It's not selfish, America is not governed by majority rule. The entire point of the constitution is to prevent an outcome where the majority constrains the rights of the minority. What's selfish is to think that the fact that your belief is shared by the majority justifies going against America's founding principles and constitution.

Boy I aint threatening anyone, and dont you think most soldiers have a belief? I know when I enlist next year and if I get shipped over seas I want God keeping me safe so I can see my family again. I'm in JROTC I have seen and talked to veterans who have seen their friends killed in front of them, limps blown off and everyone said thank god I'm alive, he was watching out for me and I pray everyday for the men killed. If you cant respect that or God you are mislead

Of course enlisted soldiers believe in God at a higher rate than normal. Being a soldier is largely about learning to comply with orders, and trusting commanders and other soldiers with your life unconditionally. The kind of person needed for that is exactly the kind that would be expected to believe in God.

For the record, I know a number of people from the service academies. You know, the people who actually end up running the military branches. And as many of them are atheist as religious, in my experience.

Man do I run into to many kids like you. I can probably make a pretty good guess about you right now. Your family is somewhere in the middle class, you never worked a true day of hard work, never been to a church or attended regular, tend to go with the flow etc or if not you like to consider yourself 'different'

You aint special boy, get your head out of your ass.

I'll leave asidethe personal attacks because I've already warned you, but I wanted to note the absurdity of your contention that he probably goes with the flow. Is your family Christian? Almost certainly. Did your parents take you to Church before you could have made the decision yourself? Almost certainly. This is true for most religious people.

How is believing something one is told over and over must be true from birth less conformist than deciding the idea is wrong and ought to be disbelieved? That makes absolutely no sense. In the significant majority of cases, staying religious (with one's birth religion) is the easiest way to "go with the flow". This is proved by the significant correlation between parental religion and their children's religions.

But hey, since you're accusing him of going with the flow... how many times have you changed religions since your parents decided yours for you at birth?

[Jamie]

Edit: Sorry David, didn't see your post, took a good 15 minutes to write mine.

How bout we not be a bunch of commies and keep the pledge the same? If it upsets you so much just don't say it or hey, move out of America if you cant even be loyal to your homeland.
Some religious kid with the mind-set of a 35 year old redneck, surprising.
'Cause I have had family members die fighting for this country
Aren't you special?
and I'm sure they weren't so butthurt bout saying a little line bout having God watching over your country
I'm assuming they had Christian beliefs... so I don't know why they would wind up 'butthurt' over it.
if you dont want a mythical all-knowing man up in the air with a kingdom made of souls 'n gold watching over your country and troops, well then, your just stupidFixed.
I ain't gonna look at it from both perspectives,
This is almost as good as the "you can't prove god doesn't exist" argument.
this is one nation UNDER GOD.
And homophobic tendency, what else is new?
I'm damn proud everyday in JROTC
Wow, the JROTC, you must be thrilled.
I pledge to the flag while wearing Army Greens.
If you would have left the armed services out of this you may have come off as less of an idiot.
I'm supporting my side, thats a pretty big part of a debateAs well as trying to prove why the other side's argument is faulty, something you've yet to even try.
according to your profile your from Britain so why you even care about the Pledge?
No, you're right, other countries should only care about themselves. :rolleyes:
So the other sides point is they dont want divine intervention
If the divine intervention your talking about is from the Christian god, then fuck no. I wouldn't want him intervening either.
for their country's safety and the safety of its people and troops?
Since when has god been about the safety of a certain country?
I dont even know why I get in debates on this forum with atheist, most teenage 'atheist' are just rebels wanting some attention
Nah, we mainly just want stupidity to stop ruining our generation.
Well why should we change the pledge to appeal to the atheist when they're more Christians than atheist
Because religion isn't supposed to have a say in legal matters?
its really selfish to want it to appeal to you when your a minority when it comes to religion
Yes, it's incredibly selfish to want your beliefs to be respected. Then again, you probably think your religion should have more respect than a group of people without a religion?
Also I dare any Atheist to walk up to one of the proud soldiers in the middle east and tell him there is no God watching over him and and friends, a God that wants him to get home to his kids and family, I fucking dare you to do that.
Err... who cares what the religious views of that soldier's happens to be? Also, if he/she would assault me for denouncing his/her religion, he/she shouldn't be allowed to serve in the military.
Boy I aint threatening anyone, and dont you think most soldiers have a belief?I could care less whether they do or not.
I know when I enlist next year and if I get shipped over seas I want God keeping me safe so I can see my family again.
How many Christian soldiers do you think die, exactly? Do you think the only soldiers killed are atheists? Seriously.
I'm in JROTC
You've already established that...
I have seen and talked to veterans who have seen their friends killed in front of them, limps blown off
Most people have.
and everyone said thank god I'm alive
All of the ones you talked to then probably already had some sort of religious views anyway. How is this relevant?
he was watching out for me and I pray everyday for the men killed.
So then, god plays favorites?
If you cant respect that or God you are misleadWhy should I respect the religious beliefs of men/women fighting for this country?
Man do I run into to many kids like you. I can probably make a pretty good guess about you right now. Your family is somewhere in the middle class, you never worked a true day of hard work, never been to a church or attended regular, tend to go with the flow etc or if not you like to consider yourself 'different'

You aint special boy, get your head out of your ass.
Not only are you a bigoted Christian with a distorted sense of morality, you're psychic too? Wow!
I aint immature
I laughed.
and your right I dont like Atheist, most of em are smug asses who think they're better cause they dont 'conform' etc.
Those would be noncomformists with atheistic views.
Also I didnt say your family doesnt work I said you, you probably never worked hard for shit in your life, you probably just sit on your ass all day on forums like these.
Yeah, because it's a known fact that most atheists are unemployed persons with a tendency to debate religious views on teen fourms. :rolleyes:
Either way I'm getting tired of arguing on a thread, if you want to talk message me.
Wait, you were arguing? Looked more like bashing and faulty assumptions being thrown left and right, to me.
I dont care if people think I'm bashing you etc, people can think whatever they want of me I dont care
Didn't you just condemn rebels... about 6 posts ago?
Well sorry I aint gonna read a post by some 15 year old in Britain and be like well gee shucks maybe God isnt real cause this kid said so
Not sure how his nationality and age exactly have much to do with how valid his views are, but... many men throughout history, men that have done great things for humanity, science, and in more ways to better ourselves, have detested religion.

[Magus]

This is almost as good as the "you can't prove god doesn't exist" argument.

Nor can you say "God doesn't existed due to the lack of proof"

That's ad ignorantiam, and both of them are false dichotomy.


Not sure how his nationality and age exactly have much to do with how valid his views are, but... many men throughout history, men that have done great things for humanity, science, and in more ways to better ourselves, have detested religion.

Also many men who did a lot of contribution to humanity were motivated by religion. Needless to say, that many men also done a lot of misdeeds thanks to religious motivation.

[The Dark Lord]

So the other sides point is they dont want divine intervention for their country's safety and the safety of its people and troops? I dont even know why I get in debates on this forum with atheist, most teenage 'atheist' are just rebels wanting some attention

Yes, most athesists are teenagers that want attention. Presumably middle age believers are just looking for the attention and adulation of going to church

Man do I run into to many kids like you. I can probably make a pretty good guess about you right now. Your family is somewhere in the middle class, you never worked a true day of hard work, never been to a church or attended regular, tend to go with the flow etc or if not you like to consider yourself 'different'

You aint special boy, get your head out of your ass.

What is wrong with being middle class and athesist?

[Death]

Alright, alright, I think Church's more or less got the message.

So, can we get back on topic? Who agrees and disagrees with the pledge idea? Should it be changed to suit today's society? Or should it be kept the same?

[The Dark Lord]

Alright, alright, I think Church's more or less got the message.

So, can we get back on topic? Who agrees and disagrees with the pledge idea? Should it be changed to suit today's society? Or should it be kept the same?

I completely agree with the idea, although America is more christian than Britain and it would never be allowed.

[Death]

A pity. I would have thought that they'd be more open minded. Maybe I was wrong.

[The Dark Lord]

A pity. I would have thought that they'd be more open minded. Maybe I was wrong.

Have you seen the Top Gear epsoide when in Southern America, they painted on their cars things like "Hilary for President" and "I love men"? America is still intolerable to many things

[Death]

I haven't seen it, but it sure to hell sounds interesting! You know, it's things like this which make me love the show. But what I don't get is that why, in 2010, America (or at least some parts of it - and other continents/countries too) still act as if they're in the dark ages?

[The Dark Lord]

I haven't seen it, but it sure to hell sounds interesting! You know, it's things like this which make me love the show. But what I don't get is that why, in 2010, America (or at least some parts of it - and other continents/countries too) still act as if they're in the dark ages?

They (Clarkson, Hammond and May) were chased by a crowd with pitchforks and they say America is the country were all men are created free and equal.

[Death]

Now that's funny, seeing the irony in the whole situation.

[Church]

Geez people get upset if I 'personally attack' them but here people are calling me a idiot and redneck etc, is there some double standard where atheist can talk shit on Christians and its ok?

[Delusion15]

But what I don't get is that why, in 2010, America (or at least some parts of it - and other continents/countries too) still act as if they're in the dark ages?


eh it depends on where you go.

you guys would love New York and San Fransisco

[Jamie]

Geez people get upset if I 'personally attack' themWell, you kind of did...
but here people are calling me a idiot
I haven't seen one time in this thread, where you were called an idiot.
and redneck etc
'Redneck' isn't exclusively derogative, but you do have the Confederate flag as your avatar, which is both ironic, considering your state fought for the Union, and odd.
is there some double standard where atheist can talk shit on Christians and its ok?
Well, no. That's usually the other way around.

[Death]

Geez people get upset if I 'personally attack' them but here people are calling me a idiot and redneck etc, is there some double standard where atheist can talk shit on Christians and its ok?

I thought we'd dropped this already, but you seem to want to continue. It's pretty simple. If you want people to show you respect, show respect to us. But you've spoken to me like shit, so what do you expect? And don't start bringing your religion into this. Your problem is your attitude; not your beliefs. I hope that this has cleared some things up for you.

[The Dark Lord]

Geez people get upset if I 'personally attack' them but here people are calling me a idiot and redneck etc, is there some double standard where atheist can talk shit on Christians and its ok?

The point of ROTW is to debate and defend your viewpoint, articulately and respectfully. Nobody who knows how to debate will attack you as a person, merely your beliefs. That said, your attitude to appaulling and would need to improve if you want to be taken seriously and not be banned.

BTW there is no double standards being applied on the basis of your beliefs.

[Amnesiac]

Well, no. That's usually the other way around.

Heck, I'd say it almost always is.

You have to remember atheists make up 2% of the U.S. population, it's hard to justify such a small group "bullying" Christians, who make up 80%+ of the population.

[The Dark Lord]

Heck, I'd say it almost always is.

You have to remember atheists make up 2% of the U.S. population, it's hard to justify such a small group "bullying" Christians, who make up 80%+ of the population.

How many of these christians are practising christians?

[Amnesiac]

How many of these christians are practising christians?

Well, 82% of the population identifies themselves as Christian. There aren't any figures on practicing, but I'd expect it to be a lot less. Either way, you can't really accuse atheists of bullying Christians when there are so little atheists to begin with. Even after you add in agnostics and the non-religious, it's still only about 11% of the population.

Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States)

[The Dark Lord]

Well, 82% of the population identifies themselves as Christian. There aren't any figures on practicing, but I'd expect it to be a lot less. Either way, you can't really accuse atheists of bullying Christians when there are so little atheists to begin with. Even after you add in agnostics and the non-religious, it's still only about 11% of the population.

Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States)

Okay, I wasn't disagreeing with you, but the accuracy of the % would be an argument for chaning the pledge of allegiance

[The Batman]

Well, 82% of the population identifies themselves as Christian. There aren't any figures on practicing, but I'd expect it to be a lot less. Either way, you can't really accuse atheists of bullying Christians when there are so little atheists to begin with. Even after you add in agnostics and the non-religious, it's still only about 11% of the population.

Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States)

Well besides the fact he was talking about this forum where it's almost even you can accuse atheists of bullying Christians no matter how many there are. It happens, maybe not as much as Christians bully them, but it does happen.

Oh topic though, I'm still with the it doesn't matter thing since you rarely say the pledge outside of school(which I said earlier).

[The Ninja]

fine by me. It needs another statement to complete the gap though. Like, One nation NOT under God?

thats the same thing as saying under God because some people are athiests and some are christians under God is saying every one is christian and saying not under god is saying everyone is athiest. i guess neither would be appropriate. so i guess leave it blank. i just realized how i used to think that it would be a horrible thing to take that out but i guess i never looked at from the other persons perspective.