Handled Worst: Katrina or Oil

[Antares]

So I am watching The View and Hassel(bitch)back (who was in a really bitchy mood after this discussion...and stupidly attacked Kathy...anyways) and she brought up the "opinion/survey/poll whatever" that said that the US Govt handled the oil spill worse than it handled Katrina?

I wanted to know what you guys think was handled worst: Katrina and Bush Admin or Oil Spill and Obama Admin

[Whisper]

Katrina, hands down

[Nickk XD]

Katrina, I agree.

With Katrina, the president failed to respond for several weeks...maybe as long as 6 months. He promised help that never arrived. He never made public disaster announcements.

In the case with Katrina; however, there was no one to hold accountable. It was a natural disaster which requires the government to aid directly. In this case, the government can force another company to pay for the damages, so things will get done much quicker.

I feel Barack Obama is doing really well handling this situation.

[Junky]

Oil Spill


I feel Barack Obama is doing really well handling this situation.
Umm How?
Obama simply didn't want to get his hands dirty until he was being hung out to dry by his constituents. He refused aid from other countries, and ignored the problem for a couple weeks. He has yet to lay out a plan of recovery, or a plan of action to make sure this never happens again. His administration is quoted with saying they are in control and yet they blame the lack of development on British Petroleum. I'll concede the point that nobody knows how to stop it, but at least do something. And the fact that he's using this to push cap and trade is nonsense, talk politics after you solve the problem. It's like a firefighter standing in front of a burning skyscraper with people jumping, and he says "We'll to prevent this from happening again we need to Blah Blah Blah," fix the damn problem then talk politics.
/end rant.

[Antares]

but at least do something

And what exactly do you want him to do?
What are expectations for him to do himself?

What can he possibly do to affect the way the oil is spilling into the frickin gulf???

Answer me that.

[Blood]

Katrina.

[Sage]

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[Antares]

Katrina.

Can you please not spam the entire thread and actually back up your claim with a reason...please.

[Sith Lord 13]

And what exactly do you want him to do?
What are expectations for him to do himself?

What can he possibly do to affect the way the oil is spilling into the frickin gulf???

Answer me that.

He could not be alienating the only people who have any hope of fixing the problem. The only thing he's done is hurt the situation. He's done nothing to help. He could be ordering coast guard boats down there to help with the collection of oil, he could be doing half a dozen other things. But the only thing he's doing is making the situation worse.

[CaliKid24]

Both terrible. Both by different groups. The handling of Katrina was completely the federal governments responsibility and I think everyone agrees that bush sucked at it. The oil spill is BP'S responsibility and they have shown little attempts at trying. I have seen people trying to help the sea creatures, and that's really as much as a normal person can do. The government isn't doing a great job on the oil spill, but it wasn't there fault that this happend. BP should have been prepared for something like this. I am going to have to say Katrina was a disgrace to all of americans. They had videos of people on there roofs begging for help. I really hope it won't be like that in our next major natural disaster. It was the governments job to be ready to help Americans after a hurricane. So Katrina was handled WAY worst.

[Peace God]

Katrina...scientists were saying for decades that New Orleans would be fucked if a large hurricane were to hit the city.

[Antares]

He could not be alienating the only people who have any hope of fixing the problem. The only thing he's done is hurt the situation. He's done nothing to help. He could be ordering coast guard boats down there to help with the collection of oil, he could be doing half a dozen other things. But the only thing he's doing is making the situation worse.

Who was alienated?
The coast guard has been there since the beginning.
What things could he be doing??
You say he could be doing many other things and you say that he has been making the whole thing worse but you fail to actually give specific examples that expose our president as the main problem in this situation

[CaptainObvious]

Definitely Katrina. There may end up being blame to lay at BP's feet for the initial blowout, but since that happened they have spared no expense or effort in trying to fix it. And Obama has done what he had to: let those with all the expertise (BP) solve the problem themselves while aggressively ensuring they hold to their legal and ethical obligations.

Katrina was handled sooooooo much worse.

[Bougainvillea]

Yeah. Weren't the levees in poor condition before Katrina even happened?

[Junky]

Technically Katrina is a state matter which means its left to the governor. That is why Mississippi recovered faster than Louisiana.
He alienated the people of the gulf through his apparent disinterest in the matter; up until a few days ago (day 50 or so) he had never called the executives of BP! He then tries to take some pressure off himself by have a twenty minute meeting with the executives, i mean come on 20 minutes.

European nations have offered vessels and manpower to help contain the spill. Obama denied them. The UK offered I believe it was 320 million $ worth of dispersant material. Obama denied them. You ask what things could he be doing, the real question is what has he in fact done? He is not the problem in this equation but he is certainly not solving the equation either.

The problem i see and that most americans see is that he is weak. He should have called the executive at BP the first chance he got and said "tell me the full extent of the problem, and how i can help the solution," But he didn't and pushed it off till he could no longer ignore it.

[Sith Lord 13]

Who was alienated?
The coast guard has been there since the beginning.
What things could he be doing??
You say he could be doing many other things and you say that he has been making the whole thing worse but you fail to actually give specific examples that expose our president as the main problem in this situation

He's in the middle of alienating BP. BP is the only organization who knows how to fix the problem. And they're doing the damn best they can. Obama should be speaking out against the rash of violence that has been directed at BP stations across the US. Especially since those stations are privately owned an operated. He should be making peace, commending BP for their efforts in fixing the problem, and reassuring the nation that the situation is being handled. But everyone sees more profit in playing it up as a crisis than as seeing the situation for what it is: an unfortunate accident that everyone involved is doing their best to fix.


Yeah. Weren't the levees in poor condition before Katrina even happened?

The levees were in poor condition for years, dating back to the Clinton administration. New Orleans has been fucked since the day it was built. If people insist on continuing to live below sea level in a hurricane zone, well, I say that they deserve what they get. The only people I feel bad for because of Katrina are the children who were caught because they had no say in where they lived.

[Antares]

He's in the middle of alienating BP. BP is the only organization who knows how to fix the problem. And they're doing the damn best they can. Obama should be speaking out against the rash of violence that has been directed at BP stations across the US. Especially since those stations are privately owned an operated. He should be making peace, commending BP for their efforts in fixing the problem, and reassuring the nation that the situation is being handled. But everyone sees more profit in playing it up as a crisis than as seeing the situation for what it is: an unfortunate accident that everyone involved is doing their best to fix.
BP is the only organization that knows how to fix the problem???
This was an extremely idiotic comment.
If BP is the only organization that knows how to fix it, then why the fuck is the frickin pipe still spewing thousands of barrels of oil into the water every single day???

Our government represents what the people thing really, and I don't think that the people want to commend BP for efforts in fixing the problem since the problem hasn't even been fixed.
The nation already knows that it is attempting to be handled, so that doesn't count.

Overall, you say he should be doing some things that have already been done, can't be done, or shouldn't be done.




The levees were in poor condition for years, dating back to the Clinton administration. New Orleans has been fucked since the day it was built. If people insist on continuing to live below sea level in a hurricane zone, well, I say that they deserve what they get. The only people I feel bad for because of Katrina are the children who were caught because they had no say in where they lived.

Levees aside, New Orleans is a great place to live with a lot of culture and growth. I mean, celebrities are moving down there in large numbers.
The levees were in poor condition prior to the Clinton Admin.
However, the state government was more responsible for making sure that its cities were taken care of.

Either way, you are stupid if you think that people deserve to have their families die and stuff washed away because of the place that they were born in. It's also stupid for you to suggest that the only people that should get sympathy are children.

[Bougainvillea]

I recommend watching When the Levees Broke: A Requiem in Four Acts if you haven't already.

[scuba steve]

Katrina, the State was still feeling the effects for years after.

at least with this situation Obama is demanding Billions from the private sector business BP so it's not the american tax payer being "punished" for the situation

[Ryhanna]

Katrina for sure.

I think Obama is doing okay right now handling the oil spill, he could have done better though by trying to fix it when it first started.
The oil spill should be fixed mainly by BP howeverm shouldn't it? It's their oil, Obama has to deal with it because it's gotten so out of hand.

[jimmycouch14]

Absolutely the oil spill has been handled much worse. Bush may not have acted as quickly as needed, but at least he didn’t run around crying who is to blame.

Obama has the entire military at his disposal. He needs to get the Coast Guard and the Navy more involved with the cleanup. For that matter, hell get the UN involved. After all we are the majority funding country.

Also he needs to quit pounding BP in the dirt. Am I the only one that heard they take full responsibility and will pay for all cost? What else do you want them do? Like it or not we need big oil. Last time I checked it heated most homes, fueled most vehicles and pretty much can not be done away with at this time.

And yes BP and the other big oil companies are truly the only ones that would have the slightest clue how to stop the flow. I sure as hell don’t hear anything from anyone else.

[Bougainvillea]

Also he needs to quit pounding BP in the dirt. Am I the only one that heard they take full responsibility and will pay for all cost? What else do you want them do?

That still doesn't account for the people who died.

Bush didn't run around blaming people, because of one simple thing. There was no one to blame.

[Junky]

Believe me if the president wants someone to fall on their sword (scapegoat), the white house will find someone to blame. BP is not completely to blame as the mineral management service which should have handled regulation is very corrupt and basically useless.
Are people so naive to think that the 20,000,000,000 dollars will actually go to victims, and not be earmarked, the current administration is the most fiscally irresponsible administration to date. Get real.

[Cloud]

Like it or not we need big oil. Last time I checked it heated most homes, fueled most vehicles and pretty much can not be done away with at this time.

Score 1 for geography case study
http://www.chumbeisland.com/

And id laugh seeing a crowd of people cramming for petrol being late for work then having the smart cyclists ride past

But really
Katrina
The oilspill isnt Obamas fault, and it wasnt his company that caused it.

And people saying he should get the navy and shit involved
smart move, use your first line of defense up saving some seagulls
smooth

Solution to Katrina- Built better houses
Solution to Oil Spill-.....
if you try plugging the hole with something the pressure will cause it to burst open and theres no way of sealing it under water with tonnes of highly flamable fuel spewing out around it

[Junky]

Score 1 for geography case study
http://www.chumbeisland.com/

And id laugh seeing a crowd of people cramming for petrol being late for work then having the smart cyclists ride past

But really
Katrina
The oilspill isnt Obamas fault, and it wasnt his company that caused it.

And people saying he should get the navy and shit involved
smart move, use your first line of defense up saving some seagulls
smooth

Solution to Katrina- Built better houses
Solution to Oil Spill-.....
if you try plugging the hole with something the pressure will cause it to burst open and theres no way of sealing it under water with tonnes of highly flamable fuel spewing out around it

With all due respect the debate isn't about whose fault it is, it's about the cleanup. The navy isn't our first line of defense that is the coastguard. The coast guard has roughly 200 vessels in service, with the USN having on or around 400. Exactly what enemy do we need 600 war vessels to defend against? My problem is not as much that he hasn't capped the spill I completely understand the extreme difficulty in that task. My problem is he hasn't done anything to CONTAIN the spill.

[Cloud]

With all due respect the debate isn't about whose fault it is, it's about the cleanup.

that was directed at the people moaning about obama blaming bp
since it was there fault

The navy isn't our first line of defense that is the coastguard. The coast guard has roughly 200 vessels in service, with the USN having on or around 400. Exactly what enemy do we need 600 war vessels to defend against?

but then think of the size of the USA and the time taken to get from one side to the other in the vessels. a long time really


My problem is not as much that he hasn't capped the spill I completely understand the extreme difficulty in that task. My problem is he hasn't done anything to CONTAIN the spill.
containing the spills also pretty dam difficult too
youd need a large membrame to stop it,
A barrier made from soils and earths isnt practical or remotely doable intime
a plastic sheeting ring would require huge amounts of plastic to reach the full depth and would also disturb the fishies

What other materials are plausible?
with each minute the effected area is growing,
producing a barrier will take even more time so an ever growing area will need to be covered to countain it
and then once thats contained the oil sill still flood that area and continue to overflow into the rest of the ocean



what a fuck up you guys have on your hands

[Junky]

but then think of the size of the USA and the time taken to get from one side to the other in the vessels. a long time really

The Navy and Coast guard combined have 24 facilities within a couple hours flight of the disaster. A Civilian cruise ship can get from Miami, Florida to Los Angeles, California in 16 days (http://travel.travelocity.com/ecruise/CruiseDetailsItinerary.do?gtCty=&srRt=&pagerIndex=&cruiseVendor=&action_code=TitleClick&deckId=&promolink=false&pPc=&currency=USD&cruiseId=50689&resultsIndex=0&resSt=FL). Are you seriously telling me that the USN couldn't get their in the 55+ days that oil has been spilling.



containing the spills also pretty dam difficult too
youd need a large membrame to stop it,
A barrier made from soils and earths isnt practical or remotely doable intime
a plastic sheeting ring would require huge amounts of plastic to reach the full depth and would also disturb the fishies

What other materials are plausible?
with each minute the effected area is growing,
producing a barrier will take even more time so an ever growing area will need to be covered to countain it
and then once thats contained the oil sill still flood that area and continue to overflow into the rest of the ocean


It is like the age old question, how does one eat an elephant; one bite at a time. As you point out its impossible to swoop up the oil in one large net, but if Obama had responded faster he would have a smaller area to deal with and therefore could contain it easier.
It is also now not only on our hands as you put it, if we can't cap it the oil will spread all over the world.

[CaptainObvious]

What do you people think the Navy is going to do? Just park its ships and thereby get rid of the oil? Give me a break. The government has deployed every cleanup resource it has; it hasn't sent in the Navy because the Navy is not an agency with the capabilities to deal with spills. The CG is already involved.

[Junky]

Outfit vessels with skimmers, booms, dispersing agents, and biological agents. thats what they could do.

[CaptainObvious]

Outfit vessels with skimmers, booms, dispersing agents, and biological agents. thats what they could do.

They are doing that.

[Sith Lord 13]

They are doing that.

Then publicize that more. Reassure the public, not that we're gonna make some big bad boogeyman pay, when that cost is just gonna get passed on to the consumer, but that all of us are working together to fix the problem.

[CaptainObvious]

Then publicize that more. Reassure the public, not that we're gonna make some big bad boogeyman pay, when that cost is just gonna get passed on to the consumer, but that all of us are working together to fix the problem.

There is so much communication on this issue it's astounding. There's a point at which unhappiness and some level of panic is not fixable with more press conferences and glossy media presentations.

[Sith Lord 13]

There is so much communication on this issue it's astounding. There's a point at which unhappiness and some level of panic is not fixable with more press conferences and glossy media presentations.

Yes, but WHAT are they saying? The number one thing being said is that BP is going to pay. That and the amount of damage being done. I've heard little to nothing about Coast Guard participation in the clean up.

[Junky]

They are doing that.
Source? Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they were. What the are doing wrong is not telling people. If he just came out and said " This is a major issue and we are doing this to combat that and bringing in these to do that." His poll numbers would go up. The bottom line is that he hasn't informed us of his plan if there is a plan. That's what makes Americans doubtful, that's why we are having this debate.

[Nickk XD]

He could not be alienating the only people who have any hope of fixing the problem. The only thing he's done is hurt the situation. He's done nothing to help. He could be ordering coast guard boats down there to help with the collection of oil, he could be doing half a dozen other things. But the only thing he's doing is making the situation worse.

He has not, by any means, made the situation worse. That simply is not possible. BP is at fault completely for the situation and they have repeatedly lied bluntly to the President. They've even admitted it. How is he supposed to know what kind of need there is when he has no clue what's going on because BP has been hush hush about the problem. They have tried very little to contain the spill and actually received an apology or two a day or so ago from the dumbass republicans. How can you apologize to BP? It's THEIR responsibility and the fund Obama set up makes perfect sense. Many many many many many people will be jobless for at least two decades because of this problem...some maybe forever. People who have used the sea as their primary income for decades and have no idea about anything else will be lost. They need the money that has been set aside.

He's in the middle of alienating BP. BP is the only organization who knows how to fix the problem. And they're doing the damn best they can. Obama should be speaking out against the rash of violence that has been directed at BP stations across the US. Especially since those stations are privately owned an operated. He should be making peace, commending BP for their efforts in fixing the problem, and reassuring the nation that the situation is being handled. But everyone sees more profit in playing it up as a crisis than as seeing the situation for what it is: an unfortunate accident that everyone involved is doing their best to fix.


An accident? Really...the best that BP can do? Really once again? Speaking out against the rage at BP? Really....hmm...BP deserves to be criticized. I agree with the president that the lying, cheating CEO gets fired. The accident may not be considered an accident for much longer. They are working on figuring out why it happened. It happened for a reason. Someone didn't do their job....BP has tried, yes. They failed, yes yes yes. Obama should not be apologizing to anyone until the situation is resolved. Right now, there is NO REASON to apologize to BP...they haven't done anything except a few things...all of which failed.

Obama cannot control the flow of oil. He cannot FORCE BP to fix it. He can punish them, yell at them, and everything else...but the lazy execs aren't in a hurry to do much.

CNN said a day or two ago that every time Obama visits the coast, he arrived and is greeted by many many workers that are trying to resolve the issue, clean it up, etc. Those workers leave right after the president. Not all, but more than 40%. He is planning another, this time UNEXPECTED, trip to the gulf shortly.

[Junky]

He has not, by any means, made the situation worse. That simply is not possible. BP is at fault completely for the situation and they have repeatedly lied bluntly to the President. They've even admitted it. How is he supposed to know what kind of need there is when he has no clue what's going on because BP has been hush hush about the problem. They have tried very little to contain the spill and actually received an apology or two a day or so ago from the dumbass republicans. How can you apologize to BP? It's THEIR responsibility and the fund Obama set up makes perfect sense. Many many many many many people will be jobless for at least two decades because of this problem...some maybe forever. People who have used the sea as their primary income for decades and have no idea about anything else will be lost. They need the money that has been set aside.



An accident? Really...the best that BP can do? Really once again? Speaking out against the rage at BP? Really....hmm...BP deserves to be criticized. I agree with the president that the lying, cheating CEO gets fired. The accident may not be considered an accident for much longer. They are working on figuring out why it happened. It happened for a reason. Someone didn't do their job....BP has tried, yes. They failed, yes yes yes. Obama should not be apologizing to anyone until the situation is resolved. Right now, there is NO REASON to apologize to BP...they haven't done anything except a few things...all of which failed.

Obama cannot control the flow of oil. He cannot FORCE BP to fix it. He can punish them, yell at them, and everything else...but the lazy execs aren't in a hurry to do much.

CNN said a day or two ago that every time Obama visits the coast, he arrived and is greeted by many many workers that are trying to resolve the issue, clean it up, etc. Those workers leave right after the president. Not all, but more than 40%. He is planning another, this time UNEXPECTED, trip to the gulf shortly.
Frankly he has made the situation worse by not making it better in any way. To set the record straight the "dumbass" republican apologized for the CEO having to stand their and get his mistake beat into him day after day after day, and then obama strong arming a 20 billion dollar slush fund. I fully want BP to take the blame, but AFTER the problem is solved is the time to beat up on him. I know he can't physically control the amount of oil, but he hasn't thrown in enough resources to begin to deal with the problem. Actually those "workers" he is greeted with are paid by the government to be a back drop for Obama and look busy. http://politifi.com/news/AstroTurf-Obama-buses-in-400-fake-workers-for-Gulf-oil-spill-photo-op-to-pretend-the-govt-is-busy-doing-something-785277.html
FYI he spent 4 hours on his first visit, hes spent more time on the golf course haha.To say he is planning an unexpected trip is kind of an oxymora.

[Tiberius]

Score 1 for geography case study
http://www.chumbeisland.com/

And id laugh seeing a crowd of people cramming for petrol being late for work then having the smart cyclists ride past

But really
Katrina
The oilspill isnt Obamas fault, and it wasnt his company that caused it.

And people saying he should get the navy and shit involved
smart move, use your first line of defense up saving some seagulls
smooth

Solution to Katrina- Built better houses
Solution to Oil Spill-.....
if you try plugging the hole with something the pressure will cause it to burst open and theres no way of sealing it under water with tonnes of highly flamable fuel spewing out around it
You fail to realize that bikes are totally stupid to use as transportation in the over-whelming majority of the U.S.

Oh and by the way, it was a government inspector from the OBAMA administration that gave BP the clearance on a well head that Halliburton said was totally unsafe. So yeah, it kinda was his fault. His bureaucrat, his ass on the line.

[Cloud]

You fail to realize that bikes are totally stupid to use as transportation in the over-whelming majority of the U.S.
Actually it could work pretty well if implemented in cities, but it would just be difficult getting the people to agree since none of yall want to swap lazy lifestyles in cars


Oh and by the way, it was a government inspector from the OBAMA administration that gave BP the clearance on a well head that Halliburton said was totally unsafe. So yeah, it kinda was his fault. His bureaucrat, his ass on the line.
A government inspector
not Obama
over in England we tend to blame the incompetant people for their fuckups
not the big cheeses who did nothin

[Junky]

Actually it could work pretty well if implemented in cities, but it would just be difficult getting the people to agree since none of yall want to swap lazy lifestyles in cars



A government inspector
not Obama
over in England we tend to blame the incompetant people for their fuckups
not the big cheeses who did nothin
Actually my dad drives 15 miles to work and then back every day, while my mother drives 25. You seriously can't tell me they should junk their car and buy bikes, you sir need a dose of reality.
Well that's great for England! But its very impractical to politically crucify a single inspector when the entire Mineral Management Service is corrupt. So why hasn't Obama cracked down on it, he has definitely been in long enough.

[Cloud]

Actually my dad drives 15 miles to work and then back every day, while my mother drives 25. You seriously can't tell me they should junk their car and buy bikes, you sir need a dose of reality.
Well that's great for England! But its very impractical to politically crucify a single inspector when the entire Mineral Management Service is corrupt. So why hasn't Obama cracked down on it, he has definitely been in long enough.
i said in cities
not suburbs
like where its realistic to do
and youd be surprised how fast you get around on a bike

if your blaming Obama for the corrupt agencies fuck up then you sir need a dose of reality too
Obama cannot be expected to know everything about how EVERYSINGLE THING works, thats why he has the different agencies, to know the shit
not his fault that they chat bollocks if he doesnt understand it

thats like me talking to you about Tofd scanning shit

[Junky]

i said in cities
not suburbs
like where its realistic to do
and youd be surprised how fast you get around on a bike

if your blaming Obama for the corrupt agencies fuck up then you sir need a dose of reality too
Obama cannot be expected to know everything about how EVERYSINGLE THING works, thats why he has the different agencies, to know the shit
not his fault that they chat bollocks if he doesnt understand it

thats like me talking to you about Tofd scanning shit
The thing is in most American cities the people live in the suburbs surrounding the city and then drive into the city. Their are no residences in the cities, therefore people have to drive 5+ miles into the city. You can get around pretty fast on a bike but its an inconvenience, especially when the terrain is hilly and not flat(San Francisco California:http://images.travelpod.com/users/vine_hooligans/rtw-2008.1225485600.san-francisco-hills.jpg the whole city is like that).
I completely see your point if we were talking about 1 Mineral Management Service Agent. But the entire agency is known to be corrupt, its common knowledge. If obama was interested in fixing it he would have. But he didn't because he doesn't want to get his hands dirty, just wants to smile and wave. Which is why it took him so long to approach the oil spill.

[Antares]

You guys just don't watch the fucking news enough.
There is a TON of communication on the matter.
There are vessels in the water.
The coast guard has been helping since like the second week.

As for the cities thing, most american cities is not San Francisco that was a horrible example.

The majority of American cities are considerably flat...otherwise we wouldn't have built a city there...

[Junky]

You guys just don't watch the fucking news enough.
There is a TON of communication on the matter.
There are vessels in the water.
The coast guard has been helping since like the second week.

As for the cities thing, most american cities is not San Francisco that was a horrible example.

The majority of American cities are considerably flat...otherwise we wouldn't have built a city there...
Source? Because from what Ive seen Obama has barely talked on the phone with the bp. While San Francisco is an extreme example all cities have hills and you can't tell me that it's practical to ride a bicyclE everywhere.

[Antares]

All cities?
There aren't hardly any hills in Manhattan for example.

And source is myself.
I watched CBS news for the 4 weeks immediately following the incident and I saw the footage with the coast guard, I know for a fact that Obama has been down there twice. He met with citizens from down there. He and his team has been in communication with BP.

You just need to frickin watch the news because your scope of whats happening is severely diminished.

And back to the bike thing, it is practical to ride a bike in NYC. It is practical to ride your bike in Minneapolis. Basically, on the east coast it is much more practical since the cities are smaller and there is a higher population density, when you get to the west, things are much more spread out therefore becoming much more impossible.

[Tiberius]

i said in cities
not suburbs
like where its realistic to do
and youd be surprised how fast you get around on a bike

if your blaming Obama for the corrupt agencies fuck up then you sir need a dose of reality too
Obama cannot be expected to know everything about how EVERYSINGLE THING works, thats why he has the different agencies, to know the shit
not his fault that they chat bollocks if he doesnt understand it

thats like me talking to you about Tofd scanning shit

He has to be held accountable for the actions of his administration.

[Junky]

All cities?
There aren't hardly any hills in Manhattan for example.

And source is myself.
I watched CBS news for the 4 weeks immediately following the incident and I saw the footage with the coast guard, I know for a fact that Obama has been down there twice. He met with citizens from down there. He and his team has been in communication with BP.

You just need to frickin watch the news because your scope of whats happening is severely diminished.

And back to the bike thing, it is practical to ride a bike in NYC. It is practical to ride your bike in Minneapolis. Basically, on the east coast it is much more practical since the cities are smaller and there is a higher population density, when you get to the west, things are much more spread out therefore becoming much more impossible.
Have you ever been to new york city? It's the largest thing I've ever seen it takes close to an hour to get from one side to another during the day. Bikes are completely impractical.
Yes I'm sure that Obama has started sending resources, now that we are 2 months into the disaster. It took Bush 4 days though. Yes he was down their his first trip he spent 4 hours, he has spent more time in 1 game of golf. He hadn't even talked to BP chairman till he was called out on it.

If we aren't gonna hold Obama accountable for his administration why should we hold the BP executives accountable for their company? :confused:

[Tiberius]

And just for the people who think that BP should pay billions for this, well, you're all advocating something that's illegal. There was a law passed by Congress that states that a company can only be held accountable for $75million of damages/reparations in an oil-related spill/disaster.

[Cloud]

Have you ever been to new york city? It's the largest thing I've ever seen it takes close to an hour to get from one side to another during the day. Bikes are completely impractical.
yea but judging by the traffic on your cities youd get around alot faster

Yes I'm sure that Obama has started sending resources, now that we are 2 months into the disaster. It took Bush 4 days though. Yes he was down their his first trip he spent 4 hours, he has spent more time in 1 game of golf. He hadn't even talked to BP chairman till he was called out on it.
yes but then think about the size and ease of the task
Bush had to rebuild
easily done with money
Obamas task is to do the impossible thats not been done before


If we aren't gonna hold Obama accountable for his administration why should we hold the BP executives accountable for their company? :confused:
they shouldve had people in to check their lines were safe
Cue the Ultrasonic Engineers

[quartermaster]

I would agree that Katrina was handled far worse; to my mind, there can be no comparison between this event, where the government is really powerless to do anything but minimize the damage and the disaster that was the Federal response to Katrina. I tend to hold human life quite high in my estimation of the world and I cannot see this, as much of an environmental catastrophe as it is, to be even close to the negligence of FEMA and the Federal response to the broken levees. Quite simply, the Federal Government was dealing with the lives of citizens and they failed to act and as a result, many more people died than needed to. That is not to say that I do not fault Obama for his "song and dance" against BP, which as illusory as it may be, I would argue is the wrong way to go about this, as it implies that BP is somehow not doing all that is humanly possible. Then again, that is politics, people need someone to blame, even for accidents. Humans have actually reached an interesting point, where people fail to grasp the concept that some things are simply out of our capability to immediately control (such as this oil spill).

That said, this entire oil deal is an absolute mess, though I can honestly say that most opinions on this issue (many in this thread, included) are highly reactionary. This WAS an accident; given all of the information we have obtained so far, this was, largely, a failed risk assessment by BP. That said, BP should have to pay for all of the damage they have done, despite the fact that this was an accident.

What one has to do, ultimately, is think logically and empirically about this issue. Like or dislike BP (I despise the big oil lobby, myself), all emotion aside, one must think logically! Why on earth would BP want millions of gallons of its own PRODUCT being wasted daily, absolutely abysmal PR and a giant environmental/property bill to pay to top it all off? Why would a company obsessed with profit want to lose so much money? It simply does not make sense! One thing you can always trust a company to do is to want to make money, that is to mean that it looks out for its best interest for the current moment and for the future; it is all about incentives. As such, we can be assured that BP is doing all that is humanly possible to stop this oil spill, as it is in their best FINANCIAL interest to do so; they have the greatest incentive ever to stop this spill and that is profit. I know it is trendy and satisfying to bash big business for being evil and self-serving, but thinking logically, BP's best option, that is to say its most self-serving option, is to stop this oil spill as expeditiously as possible.


And just for the people who think that BP should pay billions for this, well, you're all advocating something that's illegal. There was a law passed by Congress that states that a company can only be held accountable for $75million of damages/reparations in an oil-related spill/disaster.

Yes, anything can be a law and anything can be illegal. The government can place an arbitrary restriction on any form of property vandalism (which is exactly what this is), but that does not make the law right. BP should pay billions for this catastrophe, just as I should have to pay for the full costs of my car crashing into your house; I destroyed your property, thus I should pay you in full. If there was some law that assigned an arbitrary restriction on how much I had to compensate someone for my car crashing into their home, it does not make it right that I do not have to pay for all the damage, it just makes it law.

[CaptainObvious]

Yes, but WHAT are they saying? The number one thing being said is that BP is going to pay. That and the amount of damage being done. I've heard little to nothing about Coast Guard participation in the clean up.

Source? Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they were. What the are doing wrong is not telling people. If he just came out and said " This is a major issue and we are doing this to combat that and bringing in these to do that." His poll numbers would go up. The bottom line is that he hasn't informed us of his plan if there is a plan. That's what makes Americans doubtful, that's why we are having this debate.

To you two, do a quick news search. http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0619/Jones-Act-Maritime-politics-strain-Gulf-oil-spill-cleanup is an example; while it certainly outlines some additional resources that could be committed, it also points out that almost every skimmer the CG has available to them is down there right now.

He has not, by any means, made the situation worse. That simply is not possible. BP is at fault completely for the situation and they have repeatedly lied bluntly to the President. They've even admitted it. How is he supposed to know what kind of need there is when he has no clue what's going on because BP has been hush hush about the problem. They have tried very little to contain the spill and actually received an apology or two a day or so ago from the dumbass republicans. How can you apologize to BP? It's THEIR responsibility and the fund Obama set up makes perfect sense. Many many many many many people will be jobless for at least two decades because of this problem...some maybe forever. People who have used the sea as their primary income for decades and have no idea about anything else will be lost. They need the money that has been set aside.

The idea that BP is doing anything less than its best to stop this problem is stupid. This oil spill could bankrupt the company; they are putting their absolute best effort into stopping it.

An accident? Really...the best that BP can do? Really once again?

Yes and yes. Are you seriously questioning either of those points? Lest I need to remind you of the definition of accident, if you're suggesting it wasn't an accident you're telling me that BP did it on purpose. And that is just flat wrong. Whether risk was mis-assessed or not, this was an accident.

And, yes, BP is doing its best to stop the oil at this point. Their livelihood is on the line, they wouldn't do anything less. Even if you believed the executives are a bunch of soulless money seekers, the massive drop in BP's stock price is destroying their wealth. Everyone in that company is trying their best to fix this, and I cannot believe you'd think anything different.

Speaking out against the rage at BP? Really....hmm...BP deserves to be criticized. I agree with the president that the lying, cheating CEO gets fired.

Neither you, nor the president, have any say over this. But yeah, always better to try and find a scapegoat.

The accident may not be considered an accident for much longer. They are working on figuring out why it happened. It happened for a reason.

BP probably mis-assessed the risk of the well. That still makes the blowout an accident

Obama cannot control the flow of oil. He cannot FORCE BP to fix it. He can punish them, yell at them, and everything else...but the lazy execs aren't in a hurry to do much.

My uncle is one of those "lazy execs" working on fixing this - even though his purview within BP was natural gas prior to the accident. He and his colleagues have worked 18+ hour days since the spill and continue to do so. So kindly stop impugning people over actions you clearly don't know shit about.

CNN said a day or two ago that every time Obama visits the coast, he arrived and is greeted by many many workers that are trying to resolve the issue, clean it up, etc. Those workers leave right after the president. Not all, but more than 40%. He is planning another, this time UNEXPECTED, trip to the gulf shortly.

Someone already pointed out the lulziness of you saying he's planning an unexpected trip. That's an oxymoron.

Frankly he has made the situation worse by not making it better in any way. To set the record straight the "dumbass" republican apologized for the CEO having to stand their and get his mistake beat into him day after day after day, and then obama strong arming a 20 billion dollar slush fund. I fully want BP to take the blame, but AFTER the problem is solved is the time to beat up on him. I know he can't physically control the amount of oil, but he hasn't thrown in enough resources to begin to deal with the problem. Actually those "workers" he is greeted with are paid by the government to be a back drop for Obama and look busy. http://politifi.com/news/AstroTurf-Obama-buses-in-400-fake-workers-for-Gulf-oil-spill-photo-op-to-pretend-the-govt-is-busy-doing-something-785277.html
FYI he spent 4 hours on his first visit, hes spent more time on the golf course haha.To say he is planning an unexpected trip is kind of an oxymora.

What more would you have Obama do? He has committed massive resources and is riding BP hard to hold to not only their legal, but also their ethical reponsibilities. That's all he can do.

I would agree that Katrina was handled far worse; to my mind, there can be no comparison between this event, where the government is really powerless to do anything but minimize the damage and the disaster that was the Federal response to Katrina. I tend to hold human life quite high in my estimation of the world and I cannot see this, as much of an environmental catastrophe as it is, to be even close to the negligence of FEMA and the Federal response to the broken levees. Quite simply, the Federal Government was dealing with the lives of citizens and they failed to act and as a result, many more people died than needed to. That is not to say that I do not fault Obama for his "song and dance" against BP, which as illusory as it may be, I would argue is the wrong way to go about this, as it implies that BP is somehow not doing all that is humanly possible. Then again, that is politics, people need someone to blame, even for accidents. Humans have actually reached an interesting point, where people fail to grasp the concept that some things are simply out of our capability to immediately control (such as this oil spill).

That said, this entire oil deal is an absolute mess, though I can honestly say that most opinions on this issue (many in this thread, included) are highly reactionary. This WAS an accident; given all of the information we have obtained so far, this was, largely, a failed risk assessment by BP. That said, BP should have to pay for all of the damage they have done, despite the fact that this was an accident.

What one has to do, ultimately, is think logically and empirically about this issue. Like or dislike BP (I despise the big oil lobby, myself), all emotion aside, one must think logically! Why on earth would BP want millions of gallons of its own PRODUCT being wasted daily, absolutely abysmal PR and a giant environmental/property bill to pay to top it all off? Why would a company obsessed with profit want to lose so much money? It simply does not make sense! One thing you can always trust a company to do is to want to make money, that is to mean that it looks out for its best interest for the current moment and for the future; it is all about incentives. As such, we can be assured that BP is doing all that is humanly possible to stop this oil spill, as it is in their best FINANCIAL interest to do so; they have the greatest incentive ever to stop this spill and that is profit. I know it is trendy and satisfying to bash big business for being evil and self-serving, but thinking logically, BP's best option, that is to say its most self-serving option, is to stop this oil spill as expeditiously as possible.

Thank god, someone who's thinking about this logically. Everything here is true.

[The Ninja]

obama is being an ego nut. He is being too retarded to take any of the resources being offered by other countries. He has to many other people in the government working for him, before you know it he's going to change the constitution he needs to be empeached. what do you thing about obama and the oil spill let me kno your views.

[Jamie]

I don't think incompetent 14 year olds should be judging the Harvard graduate.

Just my opinion.

[The Ninja]

I don't think incompetent 14 year olds should be judging the Harvard graduate.

Just my opinion.

you have a right to your opinion but it's a fact that obama is turning down good resources which i think is rather stupid and that's my opinion

[Antares]

Merging with the last thread on this

[CaptainObvious]

obama is being an ego nut. He is being too retarded to take any of the resources being offered by other countries. He has to many other people in the government working for him, before you know it he's going to change the constitution he needs to be empeached. what do you thing about obama and the oil spill let me kno your views.

It's not somehow illegal to try to change the constitution, changing the constitution is... written in the constitution! Dumb to think he's aiming at that though, not really much (or anything) he wants to do, and he couldn't accomplish it anyways. Constitutional amendments are extremely tough.

On what grounds should he be impeached?

[The Ninja]

It's not somehow illegal to try to change the constitution, changing the constitution is... written in the constitution! Dumb to think he's aiming at that though, not really much (or anything) he wants to do, and he couldn't accomplish it anyways. Constitutional amendments are extremely tough.

On what grounds should he be impeached?

He isn't accepting any of the resources being offered by other countries. So if he can't accept things given to him by other countries he is unfit to be president.

[quartermaster]

He isn't accepting any of the resources being offered by other countries. So if he can't accept things given to him by other countries he is unfit to be president..

lolz

[Antares]

obama is being an ego nut. He is being too retarded to take any of the resources being offered by other countries. He has to many other people in the government working for him, before you know it he's going to change the constitution he needs to be empeached. what do you thing about obama and the oil spill let me kno your views.

Fail. He needs to be IMpeached because he isn't accepting help for other countries? Then Bush should have been impeached for the fact that he didn't accept help for Katrina.

I don't think incompetent 14 year olds should be judging the Harvard graduate.

Just my opinion.

Win. I completely agree.

you have a right to your opinion but it's a fact that obama is turning down good resources which i think is rather stupid and that's my opinion

Fail.

He isn't accepting any of the resources being offered by other countries. So if he can't accept things given to him by other countries he is unfit to be president.

Fail. You sound like an idiot right now.

It's not somehow illegal to try to change the constitution, changing the constitution is... written in the constitution! Dumb to think he's aiming at that though, not really much (or anything) he wants to do, and he couldn't accomplish it anyways. Constitutional amendments are extremely tough.

On what grounds should he be impeached?

Win.

.

lolz

Win.

[The Dark Lord]

And just for the people who think that BP should pay billions for this, well, you're all advocating something that's illegal. There was a law passed by Congress that states that a company can only be held accountable for $75million of damages/reparations in an oil-related spill/disaster.

I agree, Obama has made Hayward and BP scapegoats in this crisis to mask his own inability to handle the crisis. Obama's anti-Britishness has made him look silly and less and less likely to do well in the mid-term elections.

obama is being an ego nut. He is being too retarded to take any of the resources being offered by other countries. He has to many other people in the government working for him, before you know it he's going to change the constitution he needs to be empeached. what do you thing about obama and the oil spill let me kno your views.

What resources are being offered? The only country involved, other than America, is Britain and we haven't offered anything. I agree that Obama has handled the situation badly but I think it would have been literally impossible to have handled it well. I know David Cameron has been very critical of his handling of crisis

[jimmycouch14]

And just for the people who think that BP should pay billions for this, well, you're all advocating something that's illegal. There was a law passed by Congress that states that a company can only be held accountable for $75million of damages/reparations in an oil-related spill/disaster.


This is exactly why I must commend BP for setting up a $20 billion trust fund to pay for lost wages etc for the fishermen and others. This fund is also run independently.



What resources are being offered? The only country involved, other than America, is Britain and we haven't offered anything

Sources US Senate general speeches televised by C-Span 6/23/10. 1)

1) A Florida senator and the Admiral of the Coast Guard both said that 25 countries have offered help. We have accepted a token amount of help from 5 countries.

Why does Obama not accept the help offered by the other countries?

Below are not in response to Matty.

2) The US Navy and Coast Guard have approximately 2,000 skimmer ships at their disposal, with 846 being stationed at or around the Gulf of Mexico. We are using 108.
The reasons vary from; we may need them for another spill to well we are not really if we have that many or not.

Obama is the Commander and Chief of the armed forces. We all know this by the firing of a 4 star general yesterday. Why does he not get more skimmers involved? At least the ones stationed in the gulf.




3) The federal EPA stopped the state of LA from dredging sand to create barriers to prevent the oil from reaching inland coastal waters because it is in an “environmental sensitive area.” No shit and we are in the middle of one of the largest man made environmental disasters in this country.

A simple Presidential proclamation/order to suspend the Federal EPA regulation for this cleanup is all it would take to allow the barriers to be built.


These are the reasons I feel the administration is handling this badly.

Just my opinion of course.

[The Dark Lord]

[I] Sources US Senate general speeches televised by C-Span 6/23/10. 1)

1) A Florida senator and the Admiral of the Coast Guard both said that 25 countries have offered help. We have accepted a token amount of help from 5 countries.

Why does Obama not accept the help offered by the other countries?

Below are not in response to Matty.

2) The US Navy and Coast Guard have approximately 2,000 skimmer ships at their disposal, with 846 being stationed at or around the Gulf of Mexico. We are using 108.
The reasons vary from; we may need them for another spill to well we are not really if we have that many or not.

Obama is the Commander and Chief of the armed forces. We all know this by the firing of a 4 star general yesterday. Why does he not get more skimmers involved? At least the ones stationed in the gulf.




3) The federal EPA stopped the state of LA from dredging sand to create barriers to prevent the oil from reaching inland coastal waters because it is in an “environmental sensitive area.” No shit and we are in the middle of one of the largest man made environmental disasters in this country.

A simple Presidential proclamation/order to suspend the Federal EPA regulation for this cleanup is all it would take to allow the barriers to be built.


These are the reasons I feel the administration is handling this badly.

Just my opinion of course.

I appreciate that but until the leak is closed, Obama is effective useless. Obama HAS handled the situation badly but I don't think that he could have handled it well. Also Obama is right to refuse international help. There is no need for it. This is a matter being BP and The American Government, it is not international business.

[Junky]

I appreciate that but until the leak is closed, Obama is effective useless. Obama HAS handled the situation badly but I don't think that he could have handled it well. Also Obama is right to refuse international help. There is no need for it. This is a matter being BP and The American Government, it is not international business.
Theirs 4-5 nations bordering the gulf of mexico depending on how you wanna look at it. Therefore its a international catastrophe, warranting international aid.

[jimmycouch14]

I appreciate that but until the leak is closed, Obama is effective useless. Obama HAS handled the situation badly but I don't think that he could have handled it well. Also Obama is right to refuse international help. There is no need for it. This is a matter being BP and The American Government, it is not international business.


Matty1. I agree with almost everything you said. I quoted you only so I had a base to comment.

I also agree it is not international business, but the help was offered, why not accept the help? I mean the US has helped many other countries; why not accept a little help back?

This is turning into a real cluster. Take all the help that is offered and get this damn mess cleaned up. I don’t feel he is showing good leadership on this crisis. Maybe it’s a pride thing but as I have said, the US helped many countries; now they are offering to help us back. For God’s sake take it and get this situation over and done with.

[Awesome]

Katrina, when Bush was in office