God vs. Satan - Who's the good one?

[Death]

I watched this youtube video...

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...and wondered what the rest of you think. Is God good? Is Satan good? If Satan's evil what has he done (apart from turn people away from God who did many terrible things)? Even if he did (which I actually find probable), does it all amount to be worse than God's actions (even if they're in the old testament). I don't wish to discuss whether Christians would pay attention to the old testament, but simply who's the better out of the two. So, thoughts?

[Jess]

this got me thinking. I agree with the man who is speaking in the video

[Magus]

You are continuously going against and challenging 'Christians', I just wonder why this lone belief? It is as if you are trying Debunk Christianity and maintain other faiths. For whatever reasons? No, it looks like you are trying to ridicule Christianity. Nevertheless, it is a mind-provoking discussion.

It is also one of the paradoxes that comes in the discussion "God is all Good and makes only good", then why making satan.

If you don't believe this, a science-fiction movie explains this very well.

In the "Enter the Matrix" movie, you can see that the "Architect" says that he made earlier versions. The first version was too perfect, everything was good, but it is a failure. Why a 'failure'? Because it simulated heaven. Here is another paradox; Paradox of heaven.(better discussed in Tim's thread)

It all goes in the onset of the concept of Good and Bad. Better off studying anthropology and psychology on which they discuss about human behavior in certain environment.

Religion is nothing but a symbolic representations if we try to relate it to other things. Let us say: Satan is a precursor, but not the final drive.

What say you?

[Death]

this got me thinking. I agree with the man who is speaking in the video

So you think that Satan is good and God is evil, or at least God is more evil than Satan if Satin is evil? If so, I agree with you.

You are continuously going against and challenging 'Christians'

I've only asked a question about what you think about God and Satan comparitively.

I just wonder why this lone belief? It is as if you are trying Debunk Christianity and maintain other faiths. For whatever reasons? No, it looks like you are trying to ridicule Christianity.

That's not true. I have nothing against Christianity and you know it. I dislike Christianity as much as I dislike any other religion, agnosticism, and atheism. I may not agree with their beliefs, but it doesn't mean I want to redicule them.

What say you?

What are your exact beliefs on this? Who's the better of the two?

[Magus]

What are your exact beliefs on this? Who's the better of the two?

Gee... wasted types. Obvious, isn't it? God is the protagonist and Satan is the antagonist. What makes it otherwise?

[Death]

But I want to know why. What did Satan do that makes him worse than God despite what he did?

[Sith Lord 13]

God is all, therefore he is neutral. Satan did what he believed to be right so he is good.

[Severus Snape]

Let the numbers speak for themselves.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/rook_hawkins/biblical_errancy/3582

[INFERNO]

Interesting question but my concern is what is defined as "good"? The author of the video (for lack of a better term) doesn't exactly define what is "good". At one point he does view good in terms of not killing others for unjustified reasons but then views good in terms of trying to overthrow the dominating force of god to preserve human life. But he never quite says in what ways he is comparing as his premise of "good" is undefined. Unfortunately, I can say god is good just because he made everything or that he rules with an iron fist. On the other hand, I can say satan is good for the reasons mentioned.

So I think before one is to show who is better than the other, one has to define the definition of "good" and how one is to assess how good god is versus how good satan is. Furthermore, saying one is then good over the other is a general statement and doesn't represent all forms and definitions of good. If one is to say satan is more good over god, one should say satan is good by way of [premise of comparison].

[Asylum]

on a Christian stand point God isn't wrathful rather loving and forgiving. Jesus came to tell everyone that because people lived in fear of God. so that means to say God was depicted wrongly n the Old Testament leaving the Bible not 100% accurate like Christians believe. and no i'm not a Christian
this video made me think... thanks for sharing the video :) however i do not have an exact answer for you on which i believe is more evil ... i will hve to think about it more

[Death]

Interesting question but my concern is what is defined as "good"?

You always want exact definitions don't you? Very well. Lets say that being 'good' is trying to do the best for the world as in you don't cause suffering (so no murder or slavery or discrimination) and to be even more good, do whatever you can to make people happier (like get rid or natural disasters or stop evil (the causing of suffering) wherever you can). I'd say that although Satan might not be a saint, he still did good by trying to turn people away from God when he tells them to do terrible things as well as attempt to overthrow God when he knew all the terrible things he did (putting an end to evil - even though it failed).

on a Christian stand point God isn't wrathful rather loving and forgiving. Jesus came to tell everyone that because people lived in fear of God.

True, God did do good things, but he also did bad. So, like already mentioned before, maybe God is neutral (if what Jesus did can make up for all the genocide (including child-killing), slavery, torture, discrimination, etc - which I'm not sure it can).

Personally, I think that Satan is probably more good. Why? Well, God may have done good things, but he did so many disgusting things which I find unforgivable. Satan on the other hand seems to have done more good than evil (going against God's wrath), and yet I can't think of any evil things he's done (even if he did do something, does it compare to God's actions?).

[INFERNO]

You always want exact definitions don't you?

Yes, exact definitions make it possible to know just what the debate is about for something so abstract and obscure like "good".

I have one more question and it is about god. Some verses proclaim Christ is equal to god, such as John 10:30 while others say the opposite, such as Matthew 24:36. As is known, god is the blood-thirsty one while Christ is the lover so are you considering your argument of "god" to be that of the Holy Trinity or only of god, not Christ?

"I and the Father are one" (John 10:30)

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." (Matthew 24:36)


Very well. Lets say that being 'good' is trying to do the best for the world as in you don't cause suffering (so no murder or slavery or discrimination) and to be even more good, do whatever you can to make people happier (like get rid or natural disasters or stop evil (the causing of suffering) wherever you can). I'd say that although Satan might not be a saint, he still did good by trying to turn people away from God when he tells them to do terrible things as well as attempt to overthrow God when he knew all the terrible things he did (putting an end to evil - even though it failed).

So you have put forth two definitions of good: doing actions to benefit the world collectively and making individual citizens happy. The first is more clear than the second but both will do. For the first definition, although I can see it argued both ways, I'm going to have to agree with your view here.

For the second definition, you mention something that is impossible to do: stopping evil. Both in the biblical context and in reality, there's a representation of the ying and the yang. The good inherently needs the evil to be present and vice-verca, otherwise it's a dead-end system where no improvements nor advancements in any way can be made. I'm not advocating for the world to be chaotic but if you want any form of good, you need some form of evil. Also, you cant make everyone happy so you will need to compare how many are happy by god and by satan. In the biblical view, god is the one who makes people happy despite whatever he does.

The first one supports Satan and the second one is weaker in supporting Satan as being good. In other words, I support your assertion depending on the answer you provide to my question at the beginning.

[ilovegirls15]

very interesting... but God is good!! :)

[Atonement]

Good? Depends by what you mean good. Is God just? I believe so.

[INFERNO]

Good? Depends by what you mean good. Is God just? I believe so.

From the OP...

Lets say that being 'good' is trying to do the best for the world as in you don't cause suffering (so no murder or slavery or discrimination) and to be even more good, do whatever you can to make people happier (like get rid or natural disasters or stop evil (the causing of suffering) wherever you can). I'd say that although Satan might not be a saint, he still did good by trying to turn people away from God when he tells them to do terrible things as well as attempt to overthrow God when he knew all the terrible things he did (putting an end to evil - even though it failed).

[Dorsum Oppel]

Evil is only something that is in disaccordance to the mainstream standards of morality. That does not mean that it is bad, just evil.

Good and bad are two different things than evil. To be good is something that one particular person approves of, and to be bad is something that the individual disapproves of. This is basically a discussion about discussing what you consider to be good, just personified throught the different standing points of god and satan.

[Nathaniel]

this got me thinking. I agree with the man who is speaking in the video

But he didn't actually express an opinion?

[INFERNO]

But he didn't actually express an opinion?

His argument was more for Satan as the "good" one (never said how he defined good) but he concluded with the usual, believe what you will.

[Death]

But he didn't actually express an opinion?

He may not have solidily said it, but he made what he thought pretty obvious.

Is God just? I believe so.

Well that depends on how you define 'just'. What exactly is 'justice' to you?

very interesting... but God is good!! :)

The God that killed so many people for the pettiest of things?

IAs is known, god is the blood-thirsty one while Christ is the lover so are you considering your argument of "god" to be that of the Holy Trinity or only of god, not Christ?

Well, God, Jesus and the holy spirit are all supposed to be the same thing. I was always taught that Jesus was basically God coming down in human form. So surely when it comes to morality, everything that God did would carry over to Jesus seeing that Jesus is God?

For the second definition, you mention something that is impossible to do: stopping evil.

I know you can never put an end to evil full stop, but you can help prevent certain examples of evil happening.

[INFERNO]

Well, God, Jesus and the holy spirit are all supposed to be the same thing. I was always taught that Jesus was basically God coming down in human form. So surely when it comes to morality, everything that God did would carry over to Jesus seeing that Jesus is God?


That is the question, in the bible it states both that Jesus and god are one in the same yet in other parts it says they are two completely different unequal entities. Traditionally it was viewed that Jesus was a human form of god but certain verses show they are unequal in their power and knowledge, hence they may not be the same. Of course other parts say otherwise.

For morality though, I have one question to ask you: when considering acts of morality, do you include the old testament and new testament or only one? I ask this because in the old, it is Christ who is the loving one and god who is a murderous blood-thirsty childish being. This is still kind of in the new testament but god's evil acts are very watered down so as to be more loving like Jesus.


I know you can never put an end to evil full stop, but you can help prevent certain examples of evil happening.

This is true if you can prevent certain examples of good happening, which once again sticking to your definition of good, is a valid point. For other people who hold other definitions of good, maybe it's not true so for saying this is true in general for any general definition of good, may not be true.

[Death]

That is the question, in the bible it states both that Jesus and god are one in the same yet in other parts it says they are two completely different unequal entities. Traditionally it was viewed that Jesus was a human form of god but certain verses show they are unequal in their power and knowledge, hence they may not be the same. Of course other parts say otherwise.

For morality though, I have one question to ask you: when considering acts of morality, do you include the old testament and new testament or only one? I ask this because in the old, it is Christ who is the loving one and god who is a murderous blood-thirsty childish being. This is still kind of in the new testament but god's evil acts are very watered down so as to be more loving like Jesus.

Well, for the purposes of this thread, assume that God and Jesus are the same thing (so take both testaments into account) and treat them as one being - take everything that both have done into account when deciding upon their morality. Now this is where my question comes in: does what Jesus did make up for the genocides commited by him before he walked upon Earth in human form? Is Satan more good than this God for not having commited said genocides like God has, as well as trying to stop God when he was commiting countless murders in the times of the old testament? My personal answers (weighing up the pros and cons) would be no to the first and yes to the second.

This is true if you can prevent certain examples of good happening, which once again sticking to your definition of good, is a valid point. For other people who hold other definitions of good, maybe it's not true so for saying this is true in general for any general definition of good, may not be true.

What other definitions of 'good' might others have? I would have thought that the vast majority of people would consider preventing evil from taking place to be an act of good.

[INFERNO]

Well, for the purposes of this thread, assume that God and Jesus are the same thing (so take both testaments into account) and treat them as one being - take everything that both have done into account when deciding upon their morality. Now this is where my question comes in: does what Jesus did make up for the genocides commited by him before he walked upon Earth in human form? Is Satan more good than this God for not having commited said genocides like God has, as well as trying to stop God when he was commiting countless murders in the times of the old testament? My personal answers (weighing up the pros and cons) would be no to the first and yes to the second.

The genocides were launched against large groups of people, usually towns or cities or villages, and often the people weren't instructed to kill all. In many cases they were instructed to kill the males but keep the females and daughters alive to basically use a sex objects and slaves to further degrade the place they attacked. In other cases, they were instructed to kill everything, including some of the animals used for food or harvesting. Much of the time, the genocides were for nonsensical reasons, such as one person in the town doing a particular sinful action and so god ordered the entire town be killed off. It was sometimes for reasons that made some sense but much of the time it was just for silly reasons or no reason at all.

What Jesus did I think did not exceed what god did in a way to benefit rather than destroy, so I agree with your answer.

For Satan, part of your question is kind of rhetorical or bias because you ask is he good for not doing the bad stuff god did. The obvious answer for that is yes and so I'll say yes.


What other definitions of 'good' might others have? I would have thought that the vast majority of people would consider preventing evil from taking place to be an act of good.

Other views would go against apostolic pentecostalism, which states that God, jesus and the holy spirit are all one being but are different "personalities" of the one god, so as to not have three beings but just one being. By going against this, one can take the view they are three different beings and good would be defined as everything involving love and compassion. God would be favoured because he made everything (good and evil) and Jesus who is made by god spreads peace and love all around. Satan of course would be viewed as bad because he did not spread love, he opposed god's love and thus to hell he went.

Another view of "good" would be a more fundamentalist one whereby "good" is being or creating a harmonious society and evil would be promoting a chaotic one. God may be favoured because he made his rules and such to form a harmonious one and Satan steps in and makes it chaotic. Harmony in this sense is having people that follow the rules out of will and not force whereas evil involves trying to break the bond and thus causes chaos. Satan would be viewed as causing the chaos because of his rebellion as an angel causing him to be banished. This argument runs on the assumption that chaotic societies are heterogeneous, which are bad and homogeneous societies are good.

In modern sociology, especially Durkheim's work and his concept of "anomie", and I think also the Chicago School, this assumption is shown to be not entirely correct but nevertheless, it's what is used.

[Ryhanna]

Well, the pictures used in the video definatley make me think God is clearly the bad guy haha

But honestly, I have no idea... the guy in the video raises good points.

[Death]

You can't decide who's better? Is that because you find their morality to be equal? Or because you don't know which sources to believe?

[jajaja]

First off, God and Satan are myths. But if I did believe in these two deities, I would worship Satan. The God of the Bible is sick. I'd rebel against him, too. Go Satan!

[HillBillyWilly]

Look.

Satan corrupted us with sin in Genesis. Right from the get-go. After that, God kills people who are sinners.

1. God kills most people on earth during flood: Reason? Everybody but Noah was a sinner and there is nothing good left to save in those people.

2. God destroys Soddam and Gommorah: Reason? More sin

3. God ruins the people's plans for the tower of Babel: Reason? They were defying God and trying to make thier own way to heaven, not by following God. (More Sin)

[Sith Lord 13]

And he has the right to kill people because why?

He created sin. Sin is His concept. He didn't want people to sin, he shouldn't have made the concept of sin in the first place.

[INFERNO]

Satan corrupted us with sin in Genesis. Right from the get-go.

This is going to be a rather lengthy argument to show how a) your statement is nonsense using the bible and b) stating my statement. When I dispute your argument, I do so by following the logic you give and the bible. Just so they're visible, all biblical quotes are in bold and possibly megenta.

Go back even further. Who made everything? Satan? No, God did, hence God made sin and he is presumably all-knowing therefore he knew what he was doing, knew what people would do, knew what Satan would do, etc... . But, let's look it at from your view. For Satan to have made sin that means God did not make everything and Satan is perhaps equally (or more) powerful than God. This is nonsense for God to have banished Satan and furthermore, God even introduced the trees of good and evil. Time for some biblical verses:

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17)

Did Satan do that? No, God made it. But I'll adhere to your logic to show how it's nonsense for mine is already laid out above. At best, we can argue God made the opportunity for evil to occur if the forbidden fruit is eaten. However, God did more than just make the tree, he also made the serpent to talk to Adam and Eve knowing full well what the result would be:

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. (Genesis 3:1, more to it but rest is irrelevant)

So, let's see what God has done: a) made Adam and Eve knowing what they'd do, b) made the tree of evil knowing what it would do, c) made the serpent knowing what it would do and d) made Satan and Lucifer.

What is Satan guilty of doing? NOTHING because god had planned it out and put forth situations Satan and serpent had no control over. They had no control over the tree of evil being there, the guillableness of Adam and Eve and no control over the serpent itself existing. Satan is innocent but became the usual scapegoat.

Some biblical quotes for this:

"So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, 'Thus says the LORD, "Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds."' (Jeremiah 18:11, colour added myself)

Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. (Ezkiel 20:25)

If you want, I can hop over to Levictus, Deuteronomy, etc... for more.


After that, God kills people who are sinners.

True and not true. For example...

13 that scoundrels among you are leading their fellow citizens astray by saying, ‘Let us go worship other gods’—gods you have not known before. 14 In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find that the report is true and such a detestable act has been committed among you, 15 you must attack that town and completely destroy[a] all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. 16 Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the open square and burn it. Burn the entire town as a burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. 17 Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the Lord will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a large nation, just as he swore to your ancestors.
(Deuteronomy 13:13-17)

Satan did not make them ALL sinners. At best using your logic, Satan corrupted only ONE person of the entire village yet God decided to kill the entire village anyways. God considers everyone sinful except himself, with no exception. The bible may state he made someone without flaw, sin or imperfection but read through the bible to see just what those people did. They did good in many cases but they did evil and that evil is not hidden, it's very obvious.

In addition, God does not do all the killing, he gets other humans to do the killing in his name. At this point I'll ask you one very important question that you want to give considerable thought to as it will decide this post and subsequent posts to any responses you may make.


Thou shalt not kill. (Exodus 20:13)

In the older non-English versions, this is put as:


"Thou shall not kill without reason" (Exodus 20:13)

Do you adhere to the New Testament or Old Testament?


1. God kills most people on earth during flood: Reason? Everybody but Noah was a sinner and there is nothing good left to save in those people.

Not true. Look up Adam and Eve, both who were supposedly perfect. Those who were perfect do not sin. By this, I don't simply mean eating the forbidden fruit, I mean Adam, Eve and Lilith; Lilith in certain versions is actually Adam's first wife not Eve and of course Lilith is a demon. Cannot be possible for Adam to be perfect and not sin if he cheated. Then again, Eve is said to have been made for Adam from Adam's rib and is not said to be perfect despite being the ONLY two people to populate.


And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. (Genesis 2:20-22)


2. God destroys Soddam and Gommorah: Reason? More sin

God was also the one who made them and allowed them to do their numerous actions. You can blame Sodom and Gommorah for this but work up the chain of command and God pulls all the strings, including those of evil. Thus, his fault.

[Death]

He created sin. Sin is His concept. He didn't want people to sin, he shouldn't have made the concept of sin in the first place.

Agreed. I find it silly how people say God does something because someone has sinned because that is no answer since he defines sin.

Satan corrupted us with sin in Genesis.

Even if that did happen (which INFERNO has kindly explained why it didn't), could God not have done anything about that?

After that, God kills people who are sinners.

Why does God need to kill them though? Could he not reform them, change them? To me, killing them all sounds worse than what Satan supposedly (but didn't) do.

1. God kills most people on earth during flood: Reason? Everybody but Noah was a sinner and there is nothing good left to save in those people.

If that is true, then God is not omni-potent. An all-powerful God would have been able to save them regardless.

2. God destroys Soddam and Gommorah: Reason? More sin

What, did they pick up a stick on Sunday?

3. God ruins the people's plans for the tower of Babel: Reason? They were defying God and trying to make thier own way to heaven, not by following God. (More Sin)

Maybe they saw through God's attempt to deceive everyone into believing that he's good. I mean really, if God kills everyone who isn't perfect, I too would want to oppose him if he existed.

The point I'm making is that you cannot consider God good if he killed people regardless of what the reasons were. A loving and able God would have stopped them from doing sin (or maybe punish them in a more appropriate way) in the first place instead of just murder them in cold blood.

[The Batman]

If you're going to use the bible to define rather or not Satan is good or evil. Than the answer is obviously evil.
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
—John 8:44
Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world.
—1 Peter 5:8-9
Those scriptures showing that his only intention with man is to deceive them and lead them away from heaven.

[Death]

The problem is, you're only using bits of the Bible to support your argument. How many people does the Bible say God killed? We've already had the link showing that it was in the range of millions. And Satan? None - unless you would like to prove me wrong with a quote. Also note that whoever was speaking in those lines could have been lying for all you know.

Those scriptures showing that his only intention with man is to deceive them and lead them away from heaven.

And yet Satan tried to overthrow God when he reigned terror on everyone and tried to turn them away from God when he either did or told people to do terrible things - usually genocides. Even if Satan is evil (like you believe), God is clearly worse.

[INFERNO]

If you're going to use the bible to define rather or not Satan is good or evil. Than the answer is obviously evil.


The answer is not evil. The answer is irrelevant for the reason that the definition of "good" being used in this thread (and thus of "evil") is not the one you are using and supporting. The bible does say Satan is evil but it is not the same definition of evil and good that we are using in this thread. In the bible, one is "good" if they obey god and "evil" if they do not because the one assumption or expectation always is to obey god. That assumption or expectation is not used in this thread, hence, your answer of "satan is evil" is irrelevant.

Also note that whoever was speaking in those lines could have been lying for all you know.

Same is true in any fictional novel so the argument applies to you as well. It's moot.

[Death]

Same is true in any fictional novel so the argument applies to you as well. It's moot.

I know and accept that, but I was just trying to dispel the idea of "if it's in the bible, it must be true", which is nonsense.

[Dive to Survive]

I'm sorry, so wanting to bring people down to burn wit him forever in Hell is good? I don't think so. God is the good one. I don't see why you wouldn't worship God seeing as he created you, worshiping him and doing as he says is the least that you can do. Satan is not good in the slightest.

[Dive to Survive]

First off, God and Satan are myths. But if I did believe in these two deities, I would worship Satan. The God of the Bible is sick. I'd rebel against him, too. Go Satan!

Oh, if only you knew the true depth of what you just said in your last sentence.:(

[Death]

I'm sorry, so wanting to bring people down to burn wit him forever in Hell is good? I don't think so. God is the good one. I don't see why you wouldn't worship God seeing as he created you, worshiping him and doing as he says is the least that you can do. Satan is not good in the slightest.

If I got myself a wife and raised three children and then abused them for their entire life, does that make me good? If I killed two of them for sinning, am I still good simply because I 'created' them? Of course not! Also, where in the Bible does it say that it is Satan who decides who goes to Hell? Because if it is Satan, then why isn't everyone in Hell? The answer therefore is clearly God if Hell exists, making him a nasty piece of work. And you still haven't explained all the disgusting things that God did in the old testament and why Satan try to stop these.

[Severus Snape]

I'm sorry, so wanting to bring people down to burn wit him forever in Hell is good? I don't think so. God is the good one. I don't see why you wouldn't worship God seeing as he created you, worshiping him and doing as he says is the least that you can do. Satan is not good in the slightest.
I created a lego kingdom once, I didn't desire their worship and praise. Just because you create something doesn't mean you deserve praise for it. Secondly, why would god want praise? You are applying human emotions and feelings to a supposedly non human entity. Lastly, god did not create us. I think that has become increasingly clear given the scientific evidence that has been amassed against the fundamentalist vision of creationism.

[Death]

Kaname, you should also ask yourself who created Satan (it was God). Is God supposed to be omnipotent (all-powerful)? The vast majority of Christians will believe so. If that's the case, why can't God put a stop to Satan's 'evil'? Either God is not good either, or Satan isn't actually evil. Either way, creating something only to torment and massacre it is never good and Satan tried to stop God both directly and by steering people away from commiting the disgusting acts that God told them to do which is clearly a good act.

[Sith Lord 13]

I created a lego kingdom once, I didn't desire their worship and praise. Just because you create something doesn't mean you deserve praise for it. Secondly, why would god want praise? You are applying human emotions and feelings to a supposedly non human entity. Lastly, god did not create us. I think that has become increasingly clear given the scientific evidence that has been amassed against the fundamentalist vision of creationism.

Just popping in with scientific facts (I'm trying to stay out of debates):

Intelligent Design, which is a valid, if not universally excepted, scientific theory, allows all of the scientific data we've discovered to work in conjunction with religious beliefs. It supplements the theory of evolution, instead of replacing it. All it says is that the reason evolution played out the way it did is because some greater intelligence made it so.

In a nut shell: You can't disprove the theory that God made humanity until you disprove his existence.

[Death]

But how do you prove his existance in the first place? If you had to accept everything until you can disprove it, you would have to accept that fairies and elves live on Pluto and all dolls come to life when you're not looking at them. It's basically redicilous and there's no explaination as to why the world needs a designer but the designer does not. If there can be a first cause, why can that not be the universe's matter?

[Sith Lord 13]

There are two valid reasons in my mind for believing in God (for the average person):

1) Belief in a higher power is instinctual.

2) Pascal's wager.

[Death]

How is it instinctual though? Do other animals believe in God or some higher power? Regardless, what do you think about God's morality?

[punkjake]

Well i'm more or less an agnostic or luke warm Catholic...In my personal beliefs there is no real "good' or "bad" this is just words we made.There is how ever,energy that can be "good" or "bad".I call them love and hate.Love pulls the life together,but may seem in weird ways,like animals eating plants who then get eaten by other animals,that's mother nature way of showing her love for us, it also shows that things need each other to live.Hate is more less a human energy since we have more developed emotions then other things, so we can want to hate something or destroy for no purpose what so ever.But i think what ever being,energy,life form or carrot that created us had more love then hate,that's why I'm not a big fan of the bible,and i think the creator's original being that left him caused the energy hate between everything.But i think that Jesus,Buddha,God,big bang, or etc. is good.:yeah:

[Sith Lord 13]

How is it instinctual though? Do other animals believe in God or some higher power? Regardless, what do you think about God's morality?

Man has believed in god, in one form or another, since before the dawn of history. That's what I meant by instinctual. Sorry, I should have made that clearer.

I think a lot of morality in the bible makes a hell of a lot of sense. I also think most of it is contradicted somewhere else in the bible. So it's a matter of finding what makes sense. For example, the 10 commandments are really sensible. As is the "Do unto others" principal.

[CaliKid24]

Whoever u believe is better. I personally believe god and Satan are lik energy and not people

[Death]

God and Satan are energy? Like the energy from which the big bang happened? If not, what do you mean by energy?

[Heretic]

Throwing in my opinion without reading anything else in the thread because it will all be useless opinions full of nonsense.


In my religion class it was brought up how all religions are centered around compassion. Bullshit. Christianity sprang into my mind. Lets establish that we all know about the trinity. (lol trinity) Okay, so God, Jesus, and The Holy Spirit are all one right? (sort of, but for this use they are one and the same) This means that most of Jesus' teachings are hypocritical and completely idiotic. Here's why.

God killed hundreds of thousands and possibly millions of people in the Old Testament right? Right. Anyway, Jesus preached turn the other cheek and love your enemy, now I don't know about you but that seems pretty unloving to me. Here's where a fellow student blurted possibly one of the silliest things I've ever heard. She said, "Well that's just how he was portrayed." Honey I don't care how he was portrayed. There are people that portray Hitler as a good person but does that mean he was right in what he did and that we should all worship him? The correct answer is no. Regardless some people truly believe that he was right in what he did.

What I'm getting at here is that a lot of what we believe is how we are shown the item, person, or deity. For all we know the Christian God could be the "evil" one and Satan could be the "good" one. We'll never really know so I don't care, I'm just trying to impose my blasé attitude towards religion on you lot.

Farewell.

[Continuum]

There's no good and evil. Let's put it up to that. We should stop believing that Satan is evil just because say so. Because, even they do not know who is evil and who is good. Who knows, he might've been the Prometheus of Christianity. If Lucifer really wanted to just bear the burden of inflicting misery upon people then I'd believe that he can do it with his own hands. And also, if he did so, and if God is really that malevolent would he even try to stop him? I know one thing, God is not sadist. He didn't create man just to play God's playing field. The latest first reading I heard about was about, well, another genocide committed by God against the Assyrian army. He prevented their onslaught against the Jews, yet again. He did it to save, with consequences.

[Heretic]

There's no good and evil. Let's put it up to that.

Actually you're wrong, there is clearly good and evil. It's not always so clear but it can be.

Because, even they do not know who is evil and who is good.

Who is they?

I know one thing, God is not sadist. He didn't create man just to play God's playing field.

How do you know?


The latest first reading I heard about was about, well, another genocide committed by God against the Assyrian army. He prevented their onslaught against the Jews, yet again. He did it to save, with consequences.

The ends justify the means then? Hold on, what's that God? Oh yes, one of your teachings.

Matthew 5:44 "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"

There goes God again, doing something he told everyone NOT to do. Oh god, you're so funny.

[Continuum]

Actually you're wrong, there is clearly good and evil. It's not always so clear but it can be.


Let's put if up to this, let's reverse everything. God's acts are bad, and Satan's is good. If you turn the tables again, you can see it's basically the same thing, and it doesn't matter if you are neutral. It depends on the person's viewpoint if you want to judge something if it's bad or not. let's all be like Switzerland if you ask me.


Because, even they do not know who is evil and who is good.

People. I used they because I felt the terms human and people are overused.

How do you know?

For one thing, if he was sadist he wouldn't let us flourish and our civilization wouldn't pass beyond the stone age. Also, he wouldn't let us survive his onslaughts.

The ends justify the means then? Hold on, what's that God? Oh yes, one of your teachings.

Matthew 5:44 "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"

There goes God again, doing something he told everyone NOT to do. Oh god, you're so funny.

I said first reading, what you got there is from the new testament. Nevertheless, it sounds like a bad example of an irresponsible parent. I have to agree with you on that.

[TheHeretic]

well given the circumstances im going to say satan is the good guy because god (like hitler all though god was more succesful) commited a mass genicide and if hitler is evil of a crime god commite shouldnt that make god evil as well and the attempted genicide of the jews is the reason the human rights were formed so you know that therefore makes satan the good guy which is why many people follow him as a godly figure rather then god

[Death]

let's reverse everything. God's acts are bad, and Satan's is good.

You believe that acts of bigoted genocide are actually good?


For one thing, if he was sadist he wouldn't let us flourish and our civilization wouldn't pass beyond the stone age. Also, he wouldn't let us survive his onslaughts.

Firstly, I don't belive that God even exists; I'm merely discussing the 'main character' as portrayed in the Bible in biblical times alone. Secondly, had God have killed everyone, there would be no-one left to fuck around - even if the victims were too blind to realise what was going on (Satan wasn't).

well given the circumstances im going to say satan is the good guy because god (like hitler all though god was more succesful) commited a mass genicide and if hitler is evil of a crime god commite shouldnt that make god evil as well and the attempted genicide of the jews is the reason the human rights were formed so you know that therefore makes satan the good guy which is why many people follow him as a godly figure rather then god

Now why didn't I think to compare God to Hitler? Because they were both bigots and have both commited genocide. So I agree with you on that point.

[Heretic]

Let's put if up to this, let's reverse everything. God's acts are bad, and Satan's is good. If you turn the tables again, you can see it's basically the same thing, and it doesn't matter if you are neutral. It depends on the person's viewpoint if you want to judge something if it's bad or not. let's all be like Switzerland if you ask me.

Don't just say it, prove it. Use examples of God's acts and Satan's being reversed and then prove that they are both on completely neutral ground so that when switched they are the same thing, then we can talk.

For one thing, if he was sadist he wouldn't let us flourish and our civilization wouldn't pass beyond the stone age. Also, he wouldn't let us survive his onslaughts.

So you're happy he killed a shit load of people but left some? That's like saying I'm glad Hitler killed a lot of Jews but left some so they could suffer. It's just wrong.

I said first reading, what you got there is from the new testament. Nevertheless, it sounds like a bad example of an irresponsible parent. I have to agree with you on that.

But that means God contradicted himself and it infallible. How can anyone take anything he ever said as truth again? He was supposed to be this all-mighty compassionate being and now he's a lying, contradicting, murderer. I won't worship that.



Also, [email protected] the militant atheist above me.

[Continuum]

Firstly, I don't belive that God even exists; I'm merely discussing the 'main character' as portrayed in the Bible in biblical times alone. Secondly, had God have killed everyone, there would be no-one left to fuck around - even if the victims were too blind to realise what was going on (Satan wasn't).


Doesn't he have the power to create more meat sacks to shed anger on incase they all die off?

Don't just say it, prove it. Use examples of God's acts and Satan's being reversed and then prove that they are both on completely neutral ground so that when switched they are the same thing, then we can talk.

One instance is the war on heaven. If God was the fascist dictator of heaven and Satan is the Tom Cruise-esque Conspirator, then still they look the same. Reverse it again, then God would still be the all great dictator because practically he still controls everything, and Satan is still the Tom Cruise-esque conspirator. They are neutral unless we mark their actions as good or evil. What do you think of the thoughts of a man who does not know God or Satan in any way (let's say a native from an isolated tribe) and ask him/her who he/she thinks is good or evil.

[Death]

Also, [email protected] the militant atheist above me.

Why "lol"? I'm just stating facts.

Doesn't he have the power to create more meat sacks to shed anger on incase they all die off?

"Meat sacks"? Is that all we are to him?

What do you think of the thoughts of a man who does not know God or Satan in any way (let's say a native from an isolated tribe) and ask him/her who he/she thinks is good or evil.

I really hope that you're not trying to refer to me here. I've read the Bible.

[dead]

So you're happy he killed a shit load of people but left some? That's like saying I'm glad Hitler killed a lot of Jews but left some so they could suffer. It's just wrong.

Are you implying what your views are here?

[Death]

I think he said that what God did to so many people was wrong as in he commited countless genocides.

[INFERNO]

I know one thing, God is not sadist.

Why? God proclaiming that people will suffer for eternity because they did not believe in him despite whatever else that did in their life is quite sadistic. Sending in armies of humans and ordering them to kill all males but keep the women and children for labour, as well as to rape the women making them sex toys seems pretty sadistic.

Let's put if up to this, let's reverse everything. God's acts are bad, and Satan's is good. If you turn the tables again, you can see it's basically the same thing, and it doesn't matter if you are neutral.

You're proposing things but you haven't given a shred of evidence nor an argument to support anything you've said. If you say they're the same thing, then give an argument for why.


For one thing, if he was sadist he wouldn't let us flourish and our civilization wouldn't pass beyond the stone age. Also, he wouldn't let us survive his onslaughts.

Actually, he did not let many survive onslaughts he ordered humans to do or ones he did himself. In Revelations Chapter 18, God destroys Babylon in one hour and commands fire and everything to come up in its destruction.

For example:

For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
(Revelations 18:17-19)

And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. (Revelations 18:23)

There is also killing ordered by God of entire villages in Deuteronomy Chapter 13. In fact, it states that destroying villages will make god happy so he doesn't destroy your village

Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt. None of those condemned things shall be found in your hands, so that the LORD will turn from his fierce anger; he will show you mercy, have compassion on you, and increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your forefathers (Deuteronomy 13:13-18)

[Death]

Apart from Gaul and Mojo Jojo, does anyone else here think God is better than Satan despite the events of the old testament?

[The Batman]

Apart from Gaul and Mojo Jojo, does anyone else here think God is better than Satan despite the events of the old testament?

You can't say that Satan is better than god if you're using the bible as evidence. Satan's main purpose is to get you to hell so you will burn for eternity, however god gives you every chance to repent your sins and go to a paradise(heaven). Most of the people god killed in the bible were horrible people. The people in Sodom in Gomorrah saw two angels and the first thing they wanted to do was gang bang them. The Egyptians he killed enslaved the Jews. After Noah warned the people that the flood was coming and offered to help they still didn't believe him. You guys are looking at what he did but not the reasons behind them.
The Bible describes satan's nature and his power

1. Satan disguises himself as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14)
2. "The devil sinneth from the beginning" (1 John 3:8)
Satan "was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the
truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie,
he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father if it"
(John 8:44)
3. "In the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed
to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1)
4. "The god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe
not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the
image of God, should shine unto them" (2 Corinthians 4:4)
5. Demons may leave and later return to a person (Matthew 12:43-45).
6. Satan may take away the Word that has been sown in people's hearts
if they don't believe it (Matthew 13:19).
7. The powers of darkness fight against the saints (Ephesians 6:12)
8. The devils believe in God and tremble (James 2:19)
9. The satan accuses us before God day and night (Revelation 12:10)
10. The devil has taken people captive at his will (2 Timothy 2:26)
11. The devil *had* the power of death (Hebrews 2:14)
12. Satan hindered Paul from going to the Thessalonians (Thess. 2:18)
13. The devil disputed with Michael the archangel about the body of
Moses (Jude vs. 9)

But, the FINAL OUTCOME doesn't look to bright for satan:

1. Lucifer shall "be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit"
(Isaiah 14:15)
2. Satan and his angels will battle Michael and his angels. Satan and
his angels will be defeated and cast out of heaven to the earth.
(Revelation 12:7-10)
3. Spirits of devils will perform miracles to bring the nations to
war. (Revelation 16:13&14)
4. Satan will be cast into the bottomless pit for 1000 years
(Revelation 20:1-3).
5. Satan will be released upon the earth after 1000 years, but will
finally be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:7-10).
6. Satan and his false prophet will be tormented day and night forever
(Revelation 20:10)
Source=http://www.believersweb.org/view.cfm?ID=763

[Death]

You can't say that Satan is better than god if you're using the bible as evidence.

Sorry to disappoint you, but we already have, over and over.

Satan's main purpose is to get you to hell so you will burn for eternity

Since you don't see to care for evil people, then why does the fact that Satan is the lord of Hell (where only evil go) bother you?

however god gives you every chance to repent your sins and go to a paradise(heaven).

And yet God both made Satan and allows him, despite his supposed omni-potence, to continue.

Most of the people god killed in the bible were horrible people.

That's a bold, uncaring, and untrue statement. Plenty of his helpless victims were murdered in cold blood for petty things such as looking back at a town after being told not to or for not following God, gambling, disobeying your parents (everyone does it), being homosexual, dressing up in the clothes of the opposite sex (transvestism), or "sinning" in any shape or form. Hell, even picking up sticks on Sunday pissed him off. Are you telling me that you've never done anything "sinful" ever? You know as well as I do that the answer is no.

You guys are looking at what he did but not the reasons behind them.

Are you trying to justify God's countless genocides? Take Noah's ark for instance; did God really need to wipe out everyone just for forgetting him? What about the poor defenseless children who also died slowly (from drowning) by his hands? Have you no compassion for them (whether or not you believe it's real)? Now, you may say that it was all in the old testament, but this is to be included in the thread. I don't know how you can ignore these disturbing facts.

[INFERNO]

You can't say that Satan is better than god if you're using the bible as evidence.

You can depending on the definition you use of "good" and "evil". If one defines evil as killing many people, then God is most certainly much more evil than Satan because Satan killed less than 10 but God killed millions. The killings were not done in acts of self-defense or in the "heat of the moment", which could make them more justifiable. They were done by god in acts of pure hatred and planning. God didn't simply get a bit angry and destroyed Babylon accidentally, he did it with much planning.

Alternatively, "good" could be defined as saving people from being controlled by a megalomaniac who demands either to be praised or be killed. Satan may take people down to Hell, which is not described as a pleasant place but it does provide people with more freedom.

Or, "good" could be defined as giving people opportunities to succeed in a world of "free will". By that, god could be considered good but Satan not so much.

Point is, when you say you cannot argue that Satan or God is good or bad, that's just silly. If you say that there is no hope to argue for Satan as being good, well many posts in this thread including this one refute that successfully. "Good" means so many things that if you don't define it, it's meaningless.


Satan's main purpose is to get you to hell so you will burn for eternity, however god gives you every chance to repent your sins and go to a paradise(heaven).

What about when god destroyed Babylon in one hour, killing everyone in it or when God demands of others to destroy entire cities and he rewards the killers (or God simply kills them himself)? There is no chance there for the wrong-doers to repent if God kills them with all of his force.


Most of the people god killed in the bible were horrible people.

So it's perfectly acceptable to have God kill people if those people are bad? Does this same justification apply to humans? There is no chance then for those people to repent because as you just said, they were horrible, they were waiting for god to load the gun, point, aim and blow their heads off.


You guys are looking at what he did but not the reasons behind them.


It seems that you are labeling "us" as "bad" now. You're applying a black-and-white philosophy of "go along or you're done". Calling someone "horrible" as a justifiable reason for their death shows no value in anyone's life. It doesn't matter why they did whatever they did, which ironically is what you are saying we are not doing.

[Death]

Mojo Jojo, what exactly is your definition of 'Good'? I'm really interested to know right now.

[Continuum]

What about when god destroyed Babylon in one hour, killing everyone in it or when God demands of others to destroy entire cities and he rewards the killers (or God simply kills them himself)? There is no chance there for the wrong-doers to repent if God kills them with all of his force.


Babylon invaded Jerusalem, destroyed it and sent the surviving population into captivity. Similar to Sodom's fate of being destroyed by God's wrath because of their unethical behavior. Basic definition of evil for me. I'd be offended too if I saw my pets being raped by someone.

Still, if there were two groups of people, with opposing ideas wouldn't that make the two groups think each other as evil? I'd be neutral to prevent myself being involved if I didn't want to.

[INFERNO]

Babylon invaded Jerusalem, destroyed it and sent the surviving population into captivity. Similar to Sodom's fate of being destroyed by God's wrath because of their unethical behavior. Basic definition of evil for me. I'd be offended too if I saw my pets being raped by someone.

Sodom and Gomorrah did more than simply rape pets, they were also quite unfriendly with fellow humans, two very different behaviours.
What's the "basic definition" because many things occurred and can constitute unethical behaviour? Stabbing a sibling in the face with a metal fork because you are too angry to babysit anymore versus stealing $20 from your grandmother are both unethical yet the amount of damage and consequences are drastically different. I feel you're defining the ambiguous definition with another ambiguous term.

[ErykaInspire.]

With all honesty, I think Satan is the better guy.
Although God lays out the land and gives us a "paradise" called "Heaven",
Satan faces us with challenges to make us stronger.

I think God is selfish. He damns one to hell if they aren't good enough.
He wants everyone to follow him instead of follow their hearts.
Not once has he proved to me that he even exists. As a little kid,
I used to stay up and plead for him to prove himself. To show me
that there's something out there for me. He never did. He still hasn't.

Satan takes away, to teach us how to cope.
God gives to teach us how to be greedy.

Although God claims to love us all, why would he slaughter villages?
Kill innocence? Murder those not yet born?

He saved us to kill us? It just doesn't seem like a very good thing to me.

But that's just my opinion.

[Death]

There are also facts in there such as the murdering and damning to hell bits. I pretty much agree with what you've said, but don't forget that Satan also tried to prevent God from reigning terror on his human victims by attempting to overthrow him - although he failed as was banished to Hell by God who wanted to continue with his countless acts of evil and genocide.

[Sordid Saint]

I didn't watch the video, but I would say that if you are a bad person that would be going to Hell anyways, you would enjoy going there, and Satan would be like your god. And God would be like your Satan :D

[Obscene Eyedeas]

I didn't watch the video, but I would say that if you are a bad person that would be going to Hell anyways, you would enjoy going there, and Satan would be like your god. And God would be like your Satan :D

Firstly define what you mean by bad. What do you consider bad to be? Satan and god are different you do not interchange them you just worship one above the other

[INFERNO]

I didn't watch the video

The video is what the OP used to base this debate on, so it seems only reasonable to watch it.


but I would say that if you are a bad person that would be going to Hell anyways, you would enjoy going there, and Satan would be like your god. And God would be like your Satan :D

This is where watching the video might have come in handy. What makes someone "bad"? What are the traits of the god and of Satan? What suffering is in hell? Your answer uses such terms that have thousands of meanings, it's incredibly difficult to know what you are talking about.

[Continuum]

What suffering is in hell?

Like being away from God? Or getting roasted on a pole for all eternity? You choose.

[Death]

What has lead you to believe that in Hell, you roast on poles? Is there a bible quote that you'd like to share with us? I mean seriously, you haven't actually been to Hell, have you?

EDIT: Oh, and is being away from a psychotic mass murdering bigot a bad thing in your eyes?

[Rutherford The Brave]

What has lead you to believe that in Hell, you roast on poles? Is there a bible quote that you'd like to share with us? I mean seriously, you haven't actually been to Hell, have you?

In the Inferno, it never talks about a devil. It just states that god, gives the power of each level to one being. Each person is doomed to suffer in the level that best fits them. This is all due to God's damnation of them. Like in the level specifically defined for people who were gluttonous, they would be eaten by a three headed dog every day, all day. This was God's work sadly.

[Death]

Now that disproves any argument I've heard so far that suggests that Satan is worse in any way.

[INFERNO]

Like being away from God?

Even without looking for specific biblical passages, one easily knows God is supposedly everywhere, so even in hell, he would be there.


Or getting roasted on a pole for all eternity?

Funny, I don't recall any biblical passage stating all people would be roasting on a pole.


You choose.

I was asking for clarification on it, not being asked :lol: . But if I am to choose what fate I would suffer, then I would choose no suffering for myself and others.

[Sith Lord 13]

In the Inferno, it never talks about a devil. It just states that god, gives the power of each level to one being. Each person is doomed to suffer in the level that best fits them. This is all due to God's damnation of them. Like in the level specifically defined for people who were gluttonous, they would be eaten by a three headed dog every day, all day. This was God's work sadly.

Now that disproves any argument I've heard so far that suggests that Satan is worse in any way.

Too bad The Inferno is not a religious text, and is merely allegory and entertainment. As such, I fail to see it's relevance.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Too bad The Inferno is not a religious text, and is merely allegory and entertainment. As such, I fail to see it's relevance.

The bible isn't always the only relevent piece of literature, you should look into that.

[Sith Lord 13]

The bible isn't always the only relevent piece of literature, you should look into that.

No, and if you wanted to cite the Qur'an, that'd be fine. But citing The Inferno is like citing Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey.

[Rutherford The Brave]

No, and if you wanted to cite the Qur'an, that'd be fine. But citing The Inferno is like citing Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey.

Who gives a crap? Its an example of someone's point of view in this matter, just because you don't like it doesn't mean its not relevant.

[Death]

Agreed. I find nothing wrong with our arguments. I mean really, what sort of things did Satan do which God didn't?

[solid-snake]

ive got my rule:

if your religius god is good. if your a acdc fan however satan is king

[Death]

That's not necessarily true. You may get Christians who believe that God is truly how the Old Testament portrays him. At the same time, you may get atheists who believe that God is good and Satan isn't.

[Continuum]

What has lead you to believe that in Hell, you roast on poles? Is there a bible quote that you'd like to share with us? I mean seriously, you haven't actually been to Hell, have you?

EDIT: Oh, and is being away from a psychotic mass murdering bigot a bad thing in your eyes?


Actually, being away from God is the least kind of punishment in hell for unbaptized infants, according to the Inferno. But, like what Sith Lord said, it's purely out of artistic thoughts.

[Rutherford The Brave]

Actually, being away from God is the least kind of punishment in hell for unbaptized infants, according to the Inferno. But, like what Sith Lord said, it's purely out of artistic thoughts.

It doesn't mattterr what thoughts its out of shut upppp. It is relevant to this matter because it is about how if you are out of god's love you suffer, that is what the book is implying.

[Death]

Just out of interest, where does the Inferno say this?

[TheFame]

I like satan better.

He has cooler shoes.

[Death]

I may agree, but do you have any reasons besides his portrayed appearance as to why Satan is better?

[Dog Desab]

You can't say that Satan is better than god if you're using the bible as evidence. Satan's main purpose is to get you to hell so you will burn for eternity...

is burning for eternity all that bad look at the good side you will never become cold and you can burn with other people.. on a serious note god is obviously the better entity plus he made the devil itself he gave him freewill so maybe god or made a mistake like all kings do so i forgive it.... LOL

[Continuum]

Just out of interest, where does the Inferno say this?

Oh goody, you're going to read it. I think it's in Canto IV. I am not sure because I haven't read it for a long time.

[Dog Desab]

i didnt watch the video fully but read 5 arguments and my thoughts came to this what satan is doing is somewhat good why because of the people who completely follow the ways of god/jesus... satan is making the people who are susceptible to the darkness of the world which helps the people who deserve to go to heaven go to heaven i could also that if lucifer was never created than everyone could basically go to heaven... but thats just my say hope it helps

[Death]

You think that Satan is helping the good go to Heaven by making bad people? Upon what did you base this?

[Dog Desab]

my logic :P but yea w/o the devil it wouldnt be so hard to fall for sin... or just repent i guess... which is easy

[walpoler93]

there are bad people in this world, they will think satan is the good one. but, it is obvious that god is the good guy! satan's just a jerk face

[chazzrox2]

I know the poster said it was discussion between which one is good and not what to believe in, but let's face it the Old Testament is based on a collaboration of many Islamic, Hebrew and other tales, stories, fables etc. so how is it possible to judge a general pan-religion God against a vice-versa devil, or is that not the case here?

And who knows the true figure of who died, who went to heaven, who went to hell?
And if man invented God to feel better then surely He is the good one as he brings happiness to man even if he commands they die

[Jess]

there are bad people in this world, they will think satan is the good one. but, it is obvious that god is the good guy! satan's just a jerk face


well....you think all the things God did made him a good guy?

[Death]

my logic :P but yea w/o the devil it wouldnt be so hard to fall for sin... or just repent i guess... which is easy

But who invented "sin"? God did. And in the Old Testament, God did many disgusting things including genocide, encouraging genocide, and encouraging mass rape and slavery. Satan's "sins" involved him trying to stop people from following God when he told people to do all these awful things. It also once involved trying to overthrow God to prevent his reign of terror - although it failed and he got banished to Hell. So Satan is good (like you said), but for a more noble reason, and he is better than you think.

there are bad people in this world, they will think satan is the good one.

Are you trying to insult me? Pathetic.

but, it is obvious that god is the good guy! satan's just a jerk face

Wow, I'm so blown away from your irrefutable argument, I'm left speachless! [/SARCASM] Now really, why do you say something but not explain it? Are you ignoring everything God did!? How can you say that God is obviously good and Satan is bad after Satan tried to stop God's reign of terror? How many people did God kill? Millions. Look at the numbers that have already been posted as a link twice on this topic. What about Satan? Little to none. And any he did "kill", God was involved in the killing.

I know the poster said it was discussion between which one is good and not what to believe in, but let's face it the Old Testament is based on a collaboration of many Islamic, Hebrew and other tales, stories, fables etc. so how is it possible to judge a general pan-religion God against a vice-versa devil, or is that not the case here?

We are still using it in this debate. If it is so awful, then why is it still in the Bible?

And if man invented God to feel better then surely He is the good one as he brings happiness to man even if he commands they die

Man may have invented God, but they wrote awful things about him, and it's that which makes me say that God is evil and Satan is good.

[Dog Desab]

But who invented "sin"? God did. And in the Old Testament, God did many disgusting things including genocide, encouraging genocide, and encouraging mass rape and slavery. Satan's "sins" involved him trying to stop people from following God when he told people to do all these awful things. It also once involved trying to overthrow God to prevent his reign of terror - although it failed and he got banished to Hell. So Satan is good (like you said), but for a more noble reason, and he is better than you think.

exactly i agree and thank you for making it sound better than i could've ever thought to possibly say what you said... now im confused but also you cant talk about sin without talking about jesus and the reason he was put on earth well it wasnt the reason he was put here cuz he came to speak about christianity... but the supposed 'son of god' gave his life for all our sin which in my weird logic is god allowing us to sin and be forgiven w/o feeling guilt for mass genocide

[Death]

Yes, you'll find a lot of those weird contradictions and logical errors in the Bible. Personally, I find it difficult to see how one can really follow it all despite or without thinking it through.

[Dog Desab]

so now god is a infinite paradox but even saying he/she/it always will be a paradox

[Zeh Crazy]

I don't really care who's the good one or not. I'm not sure if I believe in either.

[CuriousZach]

the shepard allows the lion to eat his sheep if they go to him. the shepard tells the sheep not to go to the lion. the sheep decides to go to the lion and gets killed. who is the evil one?

although i do not agree with a few things in the bible, i dont think god is the evil one, we have free will.

[deadpie]

I can't prove that God is the bad guy in the bible, but I can prove that he IS a very violent God and is pissed off allot.

---------------------------------------------

God Doesn't Really Like Children Much

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

God Demands Slaughter

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

God Killing Firstborns

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

God is one sick guy here

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Total Death

This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)

God Promises Bloodshed

I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)

God Kills A Family

"You have done more evil than all who lived before you. You have made other gods and have made me furious with your gold calves. And since you have turned your back on me, I will bring disaster on your dynasty and kill all your sons, slave or free alike. I will burn up your royal dynasty as one burns up trash until it is all gone. I, the LORD, vow that the members of your family who die in the city will be eaten by dogs, and those who die in the field will be eaten by vultures.'" Then Ahijah said to Jeroboam's wife, "Go on home, and when you enter the city, the child will die. All Israel will mourn for him and bury him. He is the only member of your family who will have a proper burial, for this child is the only good thing that the LORD, the God of Israel, sees in the entire family of Jeroboam. And the LORD will raise up a king over Israel who will destroy the family of Jeroboam. This will happen today, even now! Then the LORD will shake Israel like a reed whipped about in a stream. He will uproot the people of Israel from this good land that he gave their ancestors and will scatter them beyond the Euphrates River, for they have angered the LORD by worshiping Asherah poles. He will abandon Israel because Jeroboam sinned and made all of Israel sin along with him." (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT)

God Approves Of Rape

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

God Wants Bodies Burnt

[The Lord speaking] "The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)



I don't care if this is the God who created me or not, because there's no way I'd ever respect a lunatic as my creator.

[LiTTleBrok3nDolly]

my believe is Satan was a son of God who wanted all to worship him so be betrayed his father God and others with him they are now called devils and demons Satan the Devil, god lets Satan mess with earth letting bad things happen but God promises all good ppl who praise him will get reward

[Death]

I don't really care who's the good one or not. I'm not sure if I believe in either.

I don't believe in either of them either. That doesn't mean you can't give an opinion about them however.

the shepard allows the lion to eat his sheep if they go to him. the shepard tells the sheep not to go to the lion. the sheep decides to go to the lion and gets killed.

Sorry for the off-topic, but you do realise that you spelled the highlighted word as Commander Shepard's surname from Mass Effect, right? I think you were looking for the spelling, "shepherd".

who is the evil one?

The problem is, you're giving a scenareo which is ignoring the disgusting things that God did. When it comes to God and Satan, the evil one is the psychopath that killed millions. Namely, God.

although i do not agree with a few things in the bible, i dont think god is the evil one, we have free will.

Our free will didn't protect us when God murdered half of us for absolutely no valid reason whatsoever.

I can't prove that God is the bad guy in the bible, but I can prove that he IS a very violent God and is pissed off allot.

...

I don't care if this is the God who created me or not, because there's no way I'd ever respect a lunatic as my creator.

And that's why I will never worship God.

my believe is Satan was a son of God who wanted all to worship him so be betrayed his father God

There you go, we have a good act from Satan already. If I were Satan, I'd try to stop God's reign of terror too.

and others with him they are now called devils and demons Satan the Devil, god lets Satan mess with earth

God lets him? If that's so, then God (seeing that he is supposed to be omnipotent, or all-powerful, right?) is no better than he is. Obviously with all the things he's done, he's even worse.

letting bad things happen but God promises all good ppl who praise him will get reward

And he dooms all those who don't believe in him to eternal damnation in Hell. I don't know how you can worship such a vindictive bigot. Or is what you said not entirely accurate after all? Your call.

[Death]

Anyone want to argue against (or for, but I'd prefer the former) my views? Is God better than Satan?

[Sith Lord 13]

Anyone want to argue against (or for, but I'd prefer the former) my views? Is God better than Satan?

Honestly, I can only think of one argument:

Might makes right.

He can squash us all like bugs, so he gets to say what's right and what's wrong.



/Advocatus Diaboli

[Death]

"Get's"? Anyway, if that were true, then that would justify what Adulf Hitler, Stalin, and all the other evil dictators did simply because they were in power.

[Sith Lord 13]

"Get's"? Anyway, if that were true, then that would justify what Adulf Hitler, Stalin, and all the other evil dictators did simply because they were in power.

Sorry. Typo. Fixed.


It doesn't justify Hitler because he lost WWII and it doesn't justify Stalin because Russia lost the Cold War.

Again, only playing Devil's Advocate here.

[Death]

It doesn't justify Hitler because he lost WWII and it doesn't justify Stalin because Russia lost the Cold War.

But for the duration that they were in power, that religious argument would have justified it. But yes, I know that their power was only temporary.

Is there anyone else here who would care to argue for God's moral superiority?