God

[The Dark Lord]

I just wondering why people believe in God? There is no proof for him and surely science will eventually prove the big bang theory. As Ashley Montage said: "Science has proof without certainty. Creationists have certainty without proof". IS THERE ANY POSSIBLE REASON TO BELIEVE IN GOD?

[Magus]

IS THERE ANY POSSIBLE REASON TO BELIEVE IN GOD?

Ans: To answer Philosophical Questions.

Like:

Why we are here? Answering with Evolution is not a conclusion to answer why there is 'Matter' and 'Particles' - As this is what we are.

Where are we going?

Where will the world end?

What was before this, what will be after this?

What is beyond the 'Wall'?
==================

Science will make things clearer for 'Humans' and nothing else.

[Giles]

The evidence for the Big Bang is so clear. It's enough for scientists to believe in the theory, therefore it's enough for me.
I don't know all the facts behind the theory, what I do know though... gives me enough not to believe in God as there is more evidence for other theories.

[chrissm]

Science can never disprove the existence of God, there are always questions that remain unanswered. It things came together to cause the big bang then where did those things come from? If those things, those conditions just were, then maybe God just was.

If you could prove the existence of God then there would no longer be any room for belief.

[Hyper]

You can't disprove God it's something that will never happen and will never be agreed upon because it's something that goes beyond human mortality or perception and since people are on both far ends of the discussion, they wont agree on it. At most, or rather definitely anybody who tries to disprove God and those who try to argue those who disprove will just end up calling each other idiots and doing everything to discredit and belittle the other side of the argument.

Also I recall the physicist who originally founded the big bang theory was also a catholic priest

[Adamm]

I don't care what scientists say, saying the earth can just randomly happen is stupid and wrong, It is more likley for a tornado to randomly assemble a car in a storm out of thousands and thousands of peices then it for life to just come about.

[The Dark Lord]

Science can never disprove the existence of God, there are always questions that remain unanswered. It things came together to cause the big bang then where did those things come from? If those things, those conditions just were, then maybe God just was.

If you could prove the existence of God then there would no longer be any room for belief.

Your reason for believing in job is "he just was", surely thats not a possible reason to believe in God. If the existance of God could be proven or disproven then there would be no debate, no ignorance, no bigotry and no terrorism, I am yet to hear a convincing reason that anyone believes in God and "he just is" is one of the weakest reasons ever

[Antares]

I don't mean to offend anyone but I think it is a form of brainwashing.
You grow up in a church with this notion that a god exists and then in your adult life you have these occurances where you "hear" god, "speak" with god, etc.
Its quite puzzling but there is no proof that god exists and according to science, it is stupid to take personal human accounts, therefore I really question if god exists

[Kohta]

Science can never disprove the existence of God, there are always questions that remain unanswered. It things came together to cause the big bang then where did those things come from? If those things, those conditions just were, then maybe God just was.

If you could prove the existence of God then there would no longer be any room for belief.

I beg to differ. Science has disproved many Gods but the people believeing in the Christian God keep changing their view of their God to better fit the modern world and Science.

[Sage]

God cannot be proven nor disproven as it cannot be tested for. However, specific claims, like the age of the earth of the validity of certain historical events can be tested and proven true or false.

[Wonder.]

I don't mean to offend anyone but I think it is a form of brainwashing.
You grow up in a church with this notion that a god exists and then in your adult life you have these occurances where you "hear" god, "speak" with god, etc.
Its quite puzzling but there is no proof that god exists and according to science, it is stupid to take personal human accounts, therefore I really question if god exists

I partially agree with you here but I have never met anyone who said they "heard god" so to speak.

Also, how could one man create the earth and everyone on it when nobody has ever done something that extrodinary ever since? It's just not humanly possible.

[chrissm]

Your reason for believing in job is "he just was", surely thats not a possible reason to believe in God. If the existance of God could be proven or disproven then there would be no debate, no ignorance, no bigotry and no terrorism, I am yet to hear a convincing reason that anyone believes in God and "he just is" is one of the weakest reasons ever
Where did I say that I believed? But "he just is" is the very essence of belief. "In the beginning was the word and the word was God".

I beg to differ. Science has disproved many Gods but the people believeing in the Christian God keep changing their view of their God to better fit the modern world and Science.
No, that's not true at all. Some people may change the way that they interpret the bible as a result of scientific discovery but that is not the same thing at all as changing their view of God.

I partially agree with you here but I have never met anyone who said they "heard god" so to speak.

Also, how could one man create the earth and everyone on it when nobody has ever done something that extrodinary ever since? It's just not humanly possible.
Quite. That is why nobody at all believes in a God that is human. God is not a man, God is God.

[INFERNO]

I just wondering why people believe in God? There is no proof for him and surely science will eventually prove the big bang theory. As Ashley Montage said: "Science has proof without certainty. Creationists have certainty without proof". IS THERE ANY POSSIBLE REASON TO BELIEVE IN GOD?

There seem to be many reasons people have but one is god provides an explanation to things science cannot answer. The explanation is always "god did it for reasons we cannot know therefore all we know is god did it, not why ror how". One may be able to reason the why part in that god is great, all-loving so the thing was made out of love or out of his power. However, when one cannot understand a certain topic, then the how cannot be understood so one can then begin to rationalize that god did it for the reasons of being great or other reasons we cannot know (why component). It's not a great answer to the why component but it seems to be a common reason.

In regards to proof of god, there is none but one can test certain natural phenomena said to be caused by him. These phenomena can be caused by many other things also, non-scientific or scientific, so the only purpose of scientific testing of them is to see how much difference there is between scientific and god claims.

I beg to differ. Science has disproved many Gods but the people believeing in the Christian God keep changing their view of their God to better fit the modern world and Science.

Assuming this occurs, which one can say it does, it can show religious beliefs are affected by non-religious factors. However, in regards to proof for why one believes, it's generally unaffected.

[The Dark Lord]

Believing in God is just a mechanism and excuse so you don't have to accept anything or question anything, believing in God encourages terrorism and serves no other purpose

[nick]

Believing in God is just a mechanism and excuse so you don't have to accept anything or question anything, believing in God encourages terrorism and serves no other purpose
Some religions may encourage terrorism, or rather the way some religions get interpretted may encourage terrorism, but to say that belief in God encourages terrorism is ridiculous and will be offensive to many people.

[Hanyo]

Interesting discussions here... too much to address everyone's interesting points all at once, but about God, I've learned some quite interesting things.

Its true, we have no way to measure God's presence or his power... that is a strong reason it can be difficult to believe he exists. But, there IS evidence of his existence that we CAN observe, and with that evidence and thinking logically, we can see that God DOES exist.

So before you stop reading, just have some patience and stay with me for a few minutes...

The Bible has documented a lot historical events. Its not a work of fiction, there are secular (non religious) historical records that verify MANY of the events recorded in the Bible. For example, Jesus DID exist, it was 2000 years ago but we have recorded history from back then, and people of the time didn't deny that he actually existed, OR that he performed miracles, but lets stick to historical events.

There are LOTS of prophesies that were made at various times, God gave the prediction to his chosen prophets and they told people about it. So far, all of the prophesies have come true at the appointed times. There are still predictions that are due to occur in the future, but all of the ones that were supposed to have happened already, have.

For example, there was a prophesy about the destruction of the city of Babylon, and it happened exactly as the prediction described, and the prophesy said that the city would never be rebuilt. To this day, it has never been rebuilt, the ruins of it can be found though about 100 miles south of Bagdad I think.

About Jesus, there were hundreds of prophecies about the "messiah", and he's fulfilled most of them already. A few examples; he would be born from the tribe of Judah, and descended from King David, a lot of people wouldn't believe in him, he would enter Jerusalem riding on a donkey, he would be betrayed by a close friend, and for 30 silver pieces... those are just a few, and they all actually happened.

These all happened 2000 years ago, so I can't really show you the video to prove it, but the predictions were all made and recorded long before Jesus was ever born, and then the results were recorded after he was born. Nobody who was alive at the time denied the that those events had actually occurred, its just easy for us to dismiss it as fiction because it happened so long ago.

Inferno, your analysis sounds very scientific. If you study the Bible carefully, you can find out WHY God did certain things as well.

Matty, I think your point of view is strongly influenced by popular media today. Actually, God DOES want you to question things AND understand why the answer is what it is. Most "Christians" don't actually know what the Bible teaches, they just listen to what their priests or ministers tell them, which is often grossly different from what the Bible tells us.

Believing in the TRUE God does NOT encourage terrorism, nothing could be farther than the truth! A few examples: "If possible, as far as it depends upon you, be peacable with all men" Romans 12:18 and "Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, And anyone loving violence His soul certainly hates." Psalms 11:5

Radical Islamists are totally into terrorism, but that's false religion for you...

God wants us to be safe and happy, and to return his love. Belief and reliance in God is useful in everything. I only started studying the Bible a few years ago, but since then I've become much happier, and I've been much more successful in all areas of my life. If you think belief in God is worthless, I have to tell you friend, you don't know what you're missing.

[nick]

Most "Christians" don't actually know what the Bible teaches, they just listen to what their priests or ministers tell them, which is often grossly different from what the Bible tells us.
I couldnt agree more

[Hanyo]

Woot!! :)

[Perseus]

I don't care what scientists say, saying the earth can just randomly happen is stupid and wrong, It is more likley for a tornado to randomly assemble a car in a storm out of thousands and thousands of peices then it for life to just come about.
Wrong analogy there, buddy. It's a hurricane, and just because there's a small chance, doesn't mean it won't happen, lol. You silly.

Believing in God is just a mechanism and excuse so you don't have to accept anything or question anything, believing in God encourages terrorism and serves no other purpose

Jesus, man. One sect of Islam doesn't mean every religion in the freaking world encourages terrorism, man. I mean really.

[INFERNO]

Its true, we have no way to measure God's presence or his power... that is a strong reason it can be difficult to believe he exists. But, there IS evidence of his existence that we CAN observe, and with that evidence and thinking logically, we can see that God DOES exist.

I'm going to stop you here because of one thing. Your argument asserts god exists because the book that involves him is historically accurate for only the human-human interactions. In other words, the historical evidence from the bible is only useful in showing it is historically accurate and people could write and read then. Your argument for god existing relies on four maxims. For example, the maxim of relevancy (or relation), in that if we state or write something, it must be because it's relevant as it's intuitive logic. Is it always true? No. In our society, look around you in a sprawling city, you find evidence everywhere of it being false. Due to me being tired, the other three maxims plus what a maxim is can be found HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gricean_maxims).


There are LOTS of prophesies that were made at various times, God gave the prediction to his chosen prophets and they told people about it. So far, all of the prophesies have come true at the appointed times. There are still predictions that are due to occur in the future, but all of the ones that were supposed to have happened already, have.

The argument of prophesies is something that seems like a sneaky way of evidence for those who don't think of it or blindly accept it and many are false. I'll start with a very well-known example: Adam and Eve. Both took a bite of the forbidden apple:

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. (Genesis 3:6)

The prophecy of them dying in ONE DAY:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Genesis 2:17)

And here it goes askew:

And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died (Genesis 5:5)

This is one of the most famous parts of the bible and here is evidence God's prophesy is false. You can begin to argue that "one day" may not be 24 hours as we think of it but can you then argue 930 years are not the same 339,450 days we think of it as (930 times 365)?


For example, there was a prophesy about the destruction of the city of Babylon, and it happened exactly as the prediction described, and the prophesy said that the city would never be rebuilt. To this day, it has never been rebuilt, the ruins of it can be found though about 100 miles south of Bagdad I think.

Keep reading in the bible. I believe you're quoting Isaiah 13:19-20 but below I have Isaiah 13:19-22. This is from the King James Version.

And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there. But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there. And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged. (Isaiah 13:19-22).

In another version, the New International Version:

19 Babylon, the jewel of kingdoms,
the glory of the Babylonians' [a] pride,
will be overthrown by God
like Sodom and Gomorrah.

20 She will never be inhabited
or lived in through all generations;
no Arab will pitch his tent there,
no shepherd will rest his flocks there.

21 But desert creatures will lie there,
jackals will fill her houses;
there the owls will dwell,
and there the wild goats will leap about.

22 Hyenas will howl in her strongholds,
jackals in her luxurious palaces.
Her time is at hand,
and her days will not be prolonged. (Isaiah 13:19-22)

Dragons aren't there but there are things built and things inhabiting it.


These all happened 2000 years ago, so I can't really show you the video to prove it, but the predictions were all made and recorded long before Jesus was ever born, and then the results were recorded after he was born. Nobody who was alive at the time denied the that those events had actually occurred, its just easy for us to dismiss it as fiction because it happened so long ago.

I always view this very skeptically and ask, was it really written prior to his birth in this much detail and the things he did in this much detail? Given above the one prophecy you gave I have shown is false and another is false, the credibility of the prophecies is challenged. I know only two of the however many hundreds or more isn't that great but I'm not going to spend hours copying and pasting in the passages for all prophecies plus any showing they're false. But I hope the idea gets through.


Inferno, your analysis sounds very scientific. If you study the Bible carefully, you can find out WHY God did certain things as well.

I have and do study the bible. I used to be a Christian and my studies of it now are not because I believe but rather quite the opposite. I engage in various discussions and debates, commonly involving Christianity so sometimes I haven't learned it all myself but others have helped me.

I have a philosophy in religious (theistic and atheistic) views in that if you are to dislike something, you should study it first and learn about it yourself. I find it useless to be against something without really knowing what that something is.

[starbrite5]

I'm still not sure what I believe, but I do know one thing- it is possible to believe in both science and God. I believe in certain aspects of evolution as well as God. And even if there is no proof, I've figured out that I'd rather believe in something and die with faith than live in the emptiness I feel otherwise.

[Malcolm Tucker]

I whole heartedly believe on God. I also believe in science. I acknowlege there's no concrete proof of God but there's no proof to say otherwise. Until there is I will continue to pray and believe in God.

[Disco Jones]

how does one "believe" in science

[Malcolm Tucker]

how does one "believe" in science

Quite easily. I follow sciences findings as they are proven fact. I study them. I accept them. I believe in evolution, the big bang and so forth. I also believe this was all God's doing

[Hanyo]

Inferno - I can see that you DO study the Bible, and in quite a lot of detail. I respect your way of debating, your research is very thorough so its obvious you're familiar with the subject.

About the fruit, I covered that in Deschain's thread about heaven. The verse isn't well understood because of the translation.

For the Babylon prophesy... well of course SOME things are inhabiting it, bacteria and other desert creatures I'm sure, but to this day it hasn't been rebuilt as a city. Its still sitting there as ruins. That's a pretty accurate prophecy from my point of view. If you're going to say that scorpions or rats or whatever constitutes the place being inhabited, wow, I don't see that anything can live up to your standards.

I would say that you're not really looking at the evidence with an honest heart. It sounds a lot like you've already decided that the bible is false, and now you're only reading it so that you can find ways to prove your point of view.

If that's the case, it'll be pointless to continue the discussion because you'll find a way to interpret ALL evidence, no matter how reasonable as something false.

[The Dark Lord]

I whole heartedly believe on God. I also believe in science. I acknowlege there's no concrete proof of God but there's no proof to say otherwise. Until there is I will continue to pray and believe in God.

You can't believe in both. God is not real and Science is facts. Btw praying is a waste of time as it is basically talking to yourself

[Magus]

God is not real

I think there is an invisible dragon... wait, I think it is a pink unicorn... HELL! It was a flying spaghetti!

[Death]

I don't care what scientists say, saying the earth can just randomly happen is stupid and wrong, It is more likley for a tornado to randomly assemble a car in a storm out of thousands and thousands of peices then it for life to just come about.

From what you have just said, it is painfully obvious that you know nothing about what you are trying to refute. If you truly believe that the big bang theory states that the universe 'just happened', you are truly ignorant on the subject so please learn the facts before trying to argue against them. Remember, matter is eternal; it is neither created nor destroyed, only changed or converted. All the matter and energy form which this universe is made will always have existed.

Also, if you say that the universe 'can't just happen', how could a God create it just like that? Your 'argument' doesn't refute the big bang theory any more than it refutes your own beliefs.

[Magus]

Also, if you say that the universe 'can't just happen', how could a God create it just like that? Your 'argument' doesn't refute the big bang theory any more than it refutes your own beliefs.

My best guess is he/she was just trolling. He/she? wasn't even clear in what she?/he wanted to convey.

[The Dark Lord]

I'm still not sure what I believe, but I do know one thing- it is possible to believe in both science and God. I believe in certain aspects of evolution as well as God. And even if there is no proof, I've figured out that I'd rather believe in something and die with faith than live in the emptiness I feel otherwise.

Nope, you can't believe in both. One is fact and the other bullshit (I'll let you guess which ones which). People who don't believe in God don't feel emptiness, we see satisfaction that we don't believe in fiction. Also we are all secretly laughing at you for believing in God and your naivety that dying will be easier if you have faith.

[Malcolm Tucker]

You can't believe in both. God is not real and Science is facts. Btw praying is a waste of time as it is basically talking to yourself

In your opinion....can you prove beyond all reasonable doubt to the contrary?

[Sage]

In your opinion....can you prove beyond all reasonable doubt to the contrary?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The burden of evidence falls upon you to prove that prayer does work, not him to disprove it, as you cannot prove a negative.

[INFERNO]

For the Babylon prophesy... well of course SOME things are inhabiting it, bacteria and other desert creatures I'm sure, but to this day it hasn't been rebuilt as a city. Its still sitting there as ruins. That's a pretty accurate prophecy from my point of view. If you're going to say that scorpions or rats or whatever constitutes the place being inhabited, wow, I don't see that anything can live up to your standards.

What it is doing in reality is not at all what I was stating. You gave biblical verse showing how there is no life and it is in ruins, so I countered by providing a biblical verse that said the very opposite. Although we are comparing the biblical verses to reality, my point was that given the disagreement of what the bible says, your comparison is not a solid one at all, and thus the Babylon prophecy is a very poor example of biblical prophecies being true because it depends solely on whether you choose to read the entire passage or skip the ending. I can see you are using only the beginning of that part but two lines after it counters it so my question to you is why do you reject those last two lines of Babylon despite accepting the first two?


I would say that you're not really looking at the evidence with an honest heart. It sounds a lot like you've already decided that the bible is false, and now you're only reading it so that you can find ways to prove your point of view.

Is this not what you are doing by ignoring the rest of the biblical passage? I am viewing all of it in its entirety but you are willingly rejecting the ending of it. If anything, you are rejecting and accepting bits and pieces to prove your point. So you cannot hope to tell me I'm doing this because clearly my argument is based on accepting all of it while yours rests on only accepting a portion of it.
As for having an honest heart, well I can diverge into some philosophical discussion about that very statement but for this purpose, I am honest in that I am indeed accepting the biblical verses, not ignoring the last two lines which are of utmost importance.

To me, it seems like you are retreating in your argument and using an ad hominem.


If that's the case, it'll be pointless to continue the discussion because you'll find a way to interpret ALL evidence, no matter how reasonable as something false.

You are finding a way to interpret all evidence as being something that is true, so we are on equal pages for this. I say false, you say true, I give my reasons, you give yours. Seems like a perfect discussion to me. If you want a discussion between those who are on same pages, then it will go nowhere because it will be all agreements. With opposing views, we can have a discussion and debate unless you wish to concede for I do not.

[Perseus]

Nope, you can't believe in both. One is fact and the other bullshit (I'll let you guess which ones which). People who don't believe in God don't feel emptiness, we see satisfaction that we don't believe in fiction. Also we are all secretly laughing at you for believing in God and your naivety that dying will be easier if you have faith.

Sure you can. I believe in the Christian God, and guess what? I just don't believe in all that "durka durka, God answers your prayers and Adam and Eve were the first humans ever and evolution is evil and doesn't exist." And calling someone's beliefs "bullshit" is jackassery at its finest. So stop trolling, dude. No one cares.

[Malcolm Tucker]

My cousin and my dad both were very I'll in recent years. Both almost died. They were on the edge. I prayed. I prayed hard. And they both are here today. I thank my god for that. Believe it or not but I do feel that god answers prayers. I can go on. And on about other examples where I see a higher power as the only logical explanation for some events but I won't. Praying to god makes me feel better. Tim no one can prove prayer works, nor can anyone prove it does not work,same as you cannot rule put the existence of god. I don't believe in Adam and Eve and creationism. I just believe that the Big Bang etc was caused by God. I can't prove it nor can I disprove it.

And by the way, Matty, you can't say ones beliefs are bullshit because you don't like it. Nor can you determine what we can or cannot believe. If I could I would slap you sonhard for saying that shit twice, that you would look like your avatar. That's just being a prick.

[Perseus]

My cousin and my dad both were very I'll in recent years. Both almost died. They were on the edge. I prayed. I prayed hard. And they both are here today. I thank my god for that. Believe it or not but I do feel that god answers prayers. I can go on. And on about other examples where I see a higher power as the only logical explanation for some events but I won't. Praying to god makes me feel better. Tim no one can prove prayer works, nor can anyone prove it does not work,same as you cannot rule put the existence of god. I don't believe in Adam and Eve and creationism. I just believe that the Big Bang etc was caused by God. I can't prove it nor can I disprove it.

See, this is the way I look at it. If God saved everyone who prayed for help during their time of illness or what have you, then no one would die, assuming they have an illness that can kill them or will. People think, "oh yeah, I'll just pray to God and thank him when I get better, not the doctor. It was all God's doing." Your immune system is what fights off disease; that's what it's there for. I don't think God has to do anything with it.

[Giles]

My cousin and my dad both were very I'll in recent years. Both almost died. They were on the edge. I prayed. I prayed hard. And they both are here today. I thank my god for that.

Coincidence and coincidence alone.
There is absolutely no evidence that praying does anything for anyone. Unless you're praying for yourself and your belief that praying will do something good for you, the positive attitude towards the problem (illness or not) may cause something to improve for you.

That, is scientific fact. Not praying.

[Magus]

Coincidence and coincidence alone.

That's not a coincidence. Nothing is of coincidence. There is no such thing as a coincidence, we live in a predetermined sets of events. Nothing is by chance. I am not implying that there is something out there that is doing all this, no.


That, is scientific fact. Not praying.

She was praying, and not them. If someone is praying, then the prayer would have affect him/her and not their peers who aren't praying.

[Sage]

My cousin and my dad both were very I'll in recent years. Both almost died. They were on the edge. I prayed. I prayed hard. And they both are here today. I thank my god for that. Believe it or not but I do feel that god answers prayers.
Fun fact: Millions of people have done the same in your situation and it hasn't helped.

I can't prove it nor can I disprove it.
You completely ignored the point I raised on the burden of evidence. If you can't prove it, there is no need to disprove it, as it is already false.

And by the way, Matty, you can't say ones beliefs are bullshit because you don't like it. Nor can you determine what we can or cannot believe. If I could I would slap you sonhard for saying that shit twice, that you would look like your avatar. That's just being a prick.
That doesn't sound like a very Christ-like thing to do.

[Magus]

See, th.....r will.

I don't really know the literal meaning of "Prayer" in Christianity.

But there is a difference between 'Prayer' and 'Supplication'.
Supplication can be answered, may be not. This is thought as per religion. The differences between prayers and what not.

===
It is really hard standing in the theist foothold, it is crumbly.

[The Dark Lord]

My cousin and my dad both were very I'll in recent years. Both almost died. They were on the edge. I prayed. I prayed hard. And they both are here today. I thank my god for that. Believe it or not but I do feel that god answers prayers. I can go on. And on about other examples where I see a higher power as the only logical explanation for some events but I won't. Praying to god makes me feel better. Tim no one can prove prayer works, nor can anyone prove it does not work,same as you cannot rule put the existence of god. I don't believe in Adam and Eve and creationism. I just believe that the Big Bang etc was caused by God. I can't prove it nor can I disprove it.

And by the way, Matty, you can't say ones beliefs are bullshit because you don't like it. Nor can you determine what we can or cannot believe. If I could I would slap you sonhard for saying that shit twice, that you would look like your avatar. That's just being a prick.

You think your "prayers" saved your dad and cousin? What about doctors and medicine, or are religious people who pray really really hard above needing medicine? btw Please don't threaten me, its not very christian but then in my experience all christians are hypocrites. Finally, could you say an extra special prayer for me saying as I don't expect to do it myself in case I get ill

Sure you can. I believe in the Christian God, and guess what? I just don't believe in all that "durka durka, God answers your prayers and Adam and Eve were the first humans ever and evolution is evil and doesn't exist." And calling someone's beliefs "bullshit" is jackassery at its finest. So stop trolling, dude. No one cares.

Actually, you can't. Science is rational and if everyone believed in science and rationality, then there would be no religious people as religion is irrational and bigoted.

In your opinion....can you prove beyond all reasonable doubt to the contrary?

Nope not my opinion, if you don't receive a response from "God" then you are talking to yourself.

[Perseus]

Actually, you can't. Science is rational and if everyone believed in science and rationality, then there would be no religious people as religion is irrational and bigoted.



Obviously, you can. Because guess what, I do. Not all religions are bigoted, buddy. Buddhism is considered a religion, and guess what, it doesn't spew out hate messages.

[The Dark Lord]

Obviously, you can. Because guess what, I do. Not all religions are bigoted, buddy. Buddhism is considered a religion, and guess what, it doesn't spew out hate messages.

You can't, people who say you can are just living in denial. Either believe in God or science, not both and if you believe in God then you should live your life by the bible, otherwise you don't really believe in God, do you?

[Perseus]

You can't, people who say you can are just living in denial. Either believe in God or science, not both and if you believe in God then you should live your life by the bible, otherwise you don't really believe in God, do you?

Now I can't believe in a god without following everything? I think the Bible has a lot of terrible things in it. Science has plenty of evidence, for me to not believe it would be close minded. I believe in God because I can.

[The Dark Lord]

Now I can't believe in a god without following everything? I think the Bible has a lot of terrible things in it. Science has plenty of evidence, for me to not believe it would be close minded. I believe in God because I can.

Of course you can't claim to be a proper christian if you don't follow the bible and if your reason for believing in God is because you "can" then you haven't studied the matter in enough detail.

[Magus]

You can't, people who say you can are just living in denial. Either believe in God or science, not both and if you believe in God then you should live your life by the bible, otherwise you don't really believe in God, do you?

I am not sure about Einstein. But, ever heard of Mendel? The one who did on Inheritance - A foothold for your "Evolution". Louis Pasteur, a French chemist. Faraday and Newton. Did they denounce either of their scientific life or their Religion? You answer me this.

It is good to note scientist like Avicenna, Averroes, Geber, Khwarizmy(Algebra), Al-Biruni, Al-Ghazali, Al-Razi, Al-Jahiz.

Most noticeably, Abbas Ibn Firnas who devotedly killed himself for science. He glided in the name of Science.

They were Chemist, Astrologist, Physicist, Biologist, Anatomist. Most oftenly called Polymath. These people were Muslim, yeah - ring a bell? 119?

In their life, both Religion and Science did coexist. Are you trying to debunk this relation or what?

[The Dark Lord]

I am not sure about Einstein. But, ever heard of Mendel? The one who did on Inheritance - A foothold for your "Evolution". Louis Pasteur, a French chemist. Faraday and Newton. Did they denounce either of their scientific life or their Religion? You answer me this.

It is good to note scientist like Avicenna, Averroes, Geber, Khwarizmy(Algebra), Al-Biruni, Al-Ghazali, Al-Razi, Al-Jahiz.

Most noticeably, Abbas Ibn Firnas who devotedly killed himself for science. He glided in the name of Science.

They were Chemist, Astrologist, Physicist, Biologist, Anatomist. Most oftenly called Polymath. These people were Muslim, yeah - ring a bell? 119?

In their life, both Religion and Science did coexist. Are you trying to debunk this relation or what?

And what about people like Richard Dawkins who has studied religion and can to the conclusion that its all a load of rubbish. The only reason that people believe in God is that over time more and more people have heard about it, if someone came up with the concept of God today then no one would believe in God. What if it was all a big bang theory, then what purpose would science serve, although I haven't heard of the scientists that you quote, if they aren't 21st Century scientists, then there beliefs are less relevant as before the 20th Century everyone believed in God. Also Einstein didn't believe in God.

btw Whats the relevance of them being muslim?

[Clawhammer]

When it comes right down to it, there has to be something eternal that created all of this. Where did all the base elements and atoms come from? Where did empty space come from? Just my opinion.

[Perseus]

And what about people like Richard Dawkins who has studied religion and can to the conclusion that its all a load of rubbish. The only reason that people believe in God is that over time more and more people have heard about it, if someone came up with the concept of God today then no one would believe in God. What if it was all a big bang theory, then what purpose would science serve, although I haven't heard of the scientists that you quote, if they aren't 21st Century scientists, then there beliefs are less relevant as before the 20th Century everyone believed in God. Also Einstein didn't believe in God.

btw Whats the relevance of them being muslim?

How is Gregor Mendel and all of them not relevant? They did pretty impressive things for science. He is stating that they're Muslim because that was their religion. And the reason I said I can is because I couldn't think of an answer without talking in circles and other things. I don't have to tell you why because it doesn't concern you.

When it comes right down to it, there has to be something eternal that created all of this. Where did all the base elements and atoms come from? Where did empty space come from? Just my opinion.

You can say the same thing about God.

[The Dark Lord]

How is Gregor Mendel and all of them not relevant? They did pretty impressive things for science. He is stating that they're Muslim because that was their religion. And the reason I said I can is because I couldn't think of an answer without talking in circles and other things. I don't have to tell you why because it doesn't concern you.



You can say the same thing about God.

Right, your two reasons for believing in God are because you "can" and because it saves you "talking in circles", those two very weak and immature reasons irriterate my opinion that you are ignoranant on the subject. I am not disputing that Mendel etc did great things for science, what I am disputing is that God is real, also he mentioned Albert Einstein, but didn't know his beliefs. Einstein didn't believe in God and the fact that he mentioned Einstein suggests that he considers Einstein a more superior scientist than Mendel etc, supporting my view.

[INFERNO]

My cousin and my dad both were very I'll in recent years. Both almost died. They were on the edge. I prayed. I prayed hard. And they both are here today. I thank my god for that. Believe it or not but I do feel that god answers prayers. I can go on. And on about other examples where I see a higher power as the only logical explanation for some events but I won't. Praying to god makes me feel better. Tim no one can prove prayer works, nor can anyone prove it does not work,same as you cannot rule put the existence of god. I don't believe in Adam and Eve and creationism. I just believe that the Big Bang etc was caused by God. I can't prove it nor can I disprove it.


Very interesting of you to have said the coloured part. You wish for something to happen, you imagine it to happen and you cling to the very thought of it happening because, as you said, it makes you feel better. As you keep praying, it keeps making you feel better and you eventually do convince yourself of whatever it is you're praying for/to.

You can't, people who say you can are just living in denial. Either believe in God or science, not both and if you believe in God then you should live your life by the bible, otherwise you don't really believe in God, do you?

Living one's life by the bible is possible while believing in science as it depends entirely on people's interpretations and acceptances of certain things in the bible. They both give alternative views and explanations to something, so if I wanted, I could perfectly say god made the universe while science describes the answer of the issue. When one does things such as theistic evolution and hope to make it a scientific theory on the same level as evolutionary theory, that's when you've distorted what both views are and progressively make less and less sense.

Where did empty space come from? Just my opinion.

You seem to have answered this question because you cannot have something or some process create nothing while existing within that nothing for it would no longer make it nothing. If you suggest god made space, then there is something, not nothing.

[Perseus]

Right, your two reasons for believing in God are because you "can" and because it saves you "talking in circles", those two very weak and immature reasons irriterate my opinion that you are ignoranant on the subject. I am not disputing that Mendel etc did great things for science, what I am disputing is that God is real, also he mentioned Albert Einstein, but didn't know his beliefs. Einstein didn't believe in God and the fact that he mentioned Einstein suggests that he considers Einstein a more superior scientist than Mendel etc, supporting my view.

See, I can't explain the reason why right, so I'm just not going to explain it. It doesn't make me ignorant, it just makes me lazy. And Einstein didn't believe in God, but he didn't say He didn't exist. Look at this Wikipedia article - Right here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein#Religious_views)

[The Dark Lord]

See, I can't explain the reason why right, so I'm just not going to explain it. It doesn't make me ignorant, it just makes me lazy. And Einstein didn't believe in God, but he didn't say He didn't exist. Look at this Wikipedia article - Right here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein#Religious_views)

What is the point in believing in something you can't believe or explain?

[Magus]

And what about people like Richard Dawkins who has studied religion and can to the conclusion that its all a load of rubbish.

Where are you going! You have just said that Religious people can never be in the line of Science. What that have to do with people who concluded that religion is all load of nonsense? Plus, Many did that, Richard is not a difference person in that stance.

Atheist and Skeptics have to criticize religion at some point, hence they are not religious.

There are hundreds of Richard Dawkins, and their contrast like Stephen Hawkings.

Still, what a contemporary atheist have to do with this discussion?

The only reason that people believe in God is that over time more and more people have heard about it.

Yes, I heard this before. It all roots to the one believe of a God, and then it branched. Something else you want to add, it seems to miss some elements?

if someone came up with the concept of God today then no one would believe in God.

As if they right forwardly believed in God in those old days. It wasn't deprivation of science that made them believe in God. There were skeptics and atheists at that time as well.

Yes, you can say they were superstitious and all, but you will end up connecting and superimposing everything on one another now. The results will be too complicated to apprehend.

What if it was all a big bang theory, then what purpose would science serve

Sorry, I can't parse this.

although I haven't heard of the scientists that you quote

Never heard of them? Then you might want to use the Handy-Dandy Wikipedia. Oh! And Richard Boyle was an uptight Christian!

if they aren't 21st Century scientists

Unfortunately, they aren't. But hell, they have contributed to science a lot. You should really thank them instead. And if you think that science opened a gate for reasoning. So, you are comparing the scientists of a single decade to the scientists that belonged to 1.5millennium before? I am not getting you.

then there beliefs are less relevant as before the 20th Century everyone believed in God.

Sorry, I can't parse this either.

Also Einstein didn't believe in God.

Sure? Link me to articles and such, If you please.

btw Whats the relevance of them being muslim?

Eeerm... muslim is a follower of Islam and perhaps Islam is a monotheistic religion. Supposedly a refurbished religion of Christianity and Qu'ran is the new and updated ver of Bible. And foremost relevant thing is that they believed in God. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Perseus]

What is the point in believing in something you can't believe or explain?

I dunno, I'm not Albert Einstein. I don't have the same beliefs as he did.

[Sith Lord 13]

Coincidence and coincidence alone.
There is absolutely no evidence that praying does anything for anyone. Unless you're praying for yourself and your belief that praying will do something good for you, the positive attitude towards the problem (illness or not) may cause something to improve for you.

That, is scientific fact. Not praying.

Uh, actually going to have to disagree with you there. There was a double blind study that proved the efficacy of prayer in aiding the recovery of patients.

Source (http://www.plim.org/PrayerDeb.htm)

I'm not saying this proves God. But I think it does provide some interesting food for thought.

[The Dark Lord]

I dunno, I'm not Albert Einstein. I don't have the same beliefs as he did.

You are missing the point. The previous poster attempted to add substance to his post by name dropping Albert Einstein, without doing any research. I was stating that Einstein didn't believe in God, meaning his argument lost credability. You still haven't answered my question: Why do YOU believe in God?
Your inability/refusal to answer suggests that you don't know why you believe in God and are merely doing what your parents told you to do so, either that or you don't actual believe in God and you are in denial

[Apparitions]

Yay, a religion thread! Answer me this religious people: Who or what made/created the God(s) of your choice? He/she/it/they didn't just appear from nowhere so where did they come from? I always like reading the answer to this...

[Sith Lord 13]

Yay, a religion thread! Answer me this religious people: Who or what made/created the God(s) of your choice? He/she/it/they didn't just appear from nowhere so where did they come from? I always like reading the answer to this...

Where did the universe come from? Matter? Space? When you can answer those questions, then a person's lack of ability to answer those questions about God will mean something.

[Apparitions]

Where did the universe come from? Matter? Space? When you can answer those questions, then a person's lack of ability to answer those questions about God will mean something.

No one knows the answer to those questions. Anyone who says they do is a liar, deluded or both. I don't understand how someone can just come to the conclusion that a God did it, even when there is no proof. But hey, why would proof matter to theists? Who needs it when you can believe in something that has never been proved, is illogical and highly questionable. Also, what came first: God or the Universe? If God came first (LOL! I have such a dirty mind :D ...) then what was there before the universe. If the Universe came first then how was God created and what caused the Universe to be created? You can ask these questions all day but you won't get an answer because no one alive now knows and we probably never will. How you (not you personally...) can jump to the conclusion that God made the Universe and shit from no evidence at all and be certain that it is the truth, I will never know.

[Sith Lord 13]

I agree that asking these questions is pointless. So why did you ask them in the first place? You have no proof the universe was created in any other manner. And I feel there is probably a reason that so many cultures independently developed a theory of god. If it were blatant nonsense, why would every culture have had some concept of god?

[Perseus]

No one knows the answer to those questions. Anyone who says they do is a liar, deluded or both. I don't understand how someone can just come to the conclusion that a God did it, even when there is no proof. But hey, why would proof matter to theists? Who needs it when you can believe in something that has never been proved, is illogical and highly questionable. Also, what came first: God or the Universe? If God came first (LOL! I have such a dirty mind :D ...) then what was there before the universe. If the Universe came first then how was God created and what caused the Universe to be created? You can ask these questions all day but you won't get an answer because no one alive now knows and we probably never will. How you (not you personally...) can jump to the conclusion that God made the Universe and shit from no evidence at all and be certain that it is the truth, I will never know.

Actually, in the Bible, it says that God lives in another universe, lol. But it doesn't matter, because both have the same outcome.

And Matty, I guess it is because of my Christian raising. I like the thought of an afterlife, no matter how much it would make me go insane and how stupid preachers are with their lie spreading.

[Apparitions]

I agree that asking these questions is pointless. So why did you ask them in the first place? You have no proof the universe was created in any other manner. And I feel there is probably a reason that so many cultures independently developed a theory of god. If it were blatant nonsense, why would every culture have had some concept of god?
Because they have no idea about what happened, but still want to think they do. This is where 'God' comes in. Fun fact: the idea of a God came from when people used to worship the sun. Religion evolved from these beliefs. I asked the questions as I was showing how no-one can know the answers to them, showing your questions about the universe to be unanswerable. I didn't think that anyone would try to answer them or anything. Yes, I have no proof the universe was created in any other manner (debatable, I'm sure that one day they will find some kind of evidence in the big bang or something) but I have no proof that the universe was created in this manner as well. The Big Bang theory is just that: a theory. Religion is nothing more than a theory as well with about the same amount of evidence as all the other theories about how the universe came to be; it has none.

Actually, in the Bible, it says that God lives in another universe, lol. But it doesn't matter, because both have the same outcome.

And Matty, I guess it is because of my Christian raising. I like the thought of an afterlife, no matter how much it would make me go insane and how stupid preachers are with their lie spreading.
I'll have to look that up. Do you know roughly where it is in the Bible? I like the though of an afterlife but seeing as there is no proof that there is one and all the different ideas of an afterlife being almost unbelievable and illogical then I can't believe in one. I would love to though, I wish I could see my Granddad when I die but it's just so unlikely.

[INFERNO]

No one knows the answer to those questions. Anyone who says they do is a liar, deluded or both. I don't understand how someone can just come to the conclusion that a God did it, even when there is no proof. But hey, why would proof matter to theists? Who needs it when you can believe in something that has never been proved, is illogical and highly questionable. Also, what came first: God or the Universe? If God came first (LOL! I have such a dirty mind :D ...) then what was there before the universe. If the Universe came first then how was God created and what caused the Universe to be created? You can ask these questions all day but you won't get an answer because no one alive now knows and we probably never will. How you (not you personally...) can jump to the conclusion that God made the Universe and shit from no evidence at all and be certain that it is the truth, I will never know.

I agree that asking these questions is pointless. So why did you ask them in the first place? You have no proof the universe was created in any other manner. And I feel there is probably a reason that so many cultures independently developed a theory of god. If it were blatant nonsense, why would every culture have had some concept of god?

Consider the Greek mythology, there are various gods and goddesses for certain things. The formation and usage of a god is like a place-holder for something we don't know but want answered. Whatever the mythology, one can say the god/goddess made something and therefore that is why it is like this. The reason for all this is people strive to actively understand the world with which they live within even if it means using such place-holders.

Because they have no idea about what happened, but still want to think they do. This is where 'God' comes in. Fun fact: the idea of a God came from when people used to worship the sun.

Are you referring to Ancient Egyptian because there were civilizations prior to them in the same regions (i.e. Ancient Nubian)?


The Big Bang theory is just that: a theory. Religion is nothing more than a theory as well with about the same amount of evidence as all the other theories about how the universe came to be; it has none.

They are different as the big bang is a scientific theory and has different premises and qualities than religious theories, which are pretty much laymen terms for a theory. Two types of theories, not the same.

[Apparitions]

Consider the Greek mythology, there are various gods and goddesses for certain things. The formation and usage of a god is like a place-holder for something we don't know but want answered. Whatever the mythology, one can say the god/goddess made something and therefore that is why it is like this. The reason for all this is people strive to actively understand the world with which they live within even if it means using such place-holders.
I like this. But people now don't use Gods as place-holders, they really believe they exist and whatever.


Are you referring to Ancient Egyptian because there were civilizations prior to them in the same regions (i.e. Ancient Nubian)?
I think so, I saw it on a video I watched. It looked quite believable to me. I'm interested in all these ancient civilizations and their beliefs etc. Apparently (don't take my word on this, I'm just saying what I saw) people have worshipped the sun even before the time of these civilizations becuase it gives them warmth and protection and shit like that.


They are different as the big bang is a scientific theory and has different premises and qualities than religious theories, which are pretty much laymen terms for a theory. Two types of theories, not the same.Oh. My bad :whoops: ... Explain the differences to me though, I'm a little confused.

[Perseus]

I'll have to look that up. Do you know roughly where it is in the Bible? I like the though of an afterlife but seeing as there is no proof that there is one and all the different ideas of an afterlife being almost unbelievable and illogical then I can't believe in one. I would love to though, I wish I could see my Granddad when I die but it's just so unlikely.

Lol, I wouldn't know. I stopped reading the Bible like three years ago. Even then, I still didn't read it unless I was bored in Church sermons. I think it's somewhere in the Old Testament.

[Magus]

You are missing the point. The previous poster attempted to add substance to his post by name dropping Albert Einstein, without doing any research. I was stating that Einstein didn't believe in God, meaning his argument lost credability.

I don't know by the meaning of that.

I didn't understand halve of what you have said. Since they made no sense at all. I am referring to post Post #47.

Is Albert Einstein the only scientist you know? Because I had doubts whether he was a religious person or no; some says he was a Jew, and some says he was irreligious.

Note, that I have mentioned over 12 scientist who are monotheist. Where you have claimed that a person cannot believe in God if he trust science, and vice versa. I reclaimed that science coexist with religion with the reference of the aforementioned scientist.

But then you have flung in Dawkins. And the rest of the post were very vague.

I am waiting a response.

[INFERNO]

I like this. But people now don't use Gods as place-holders, they really believe they exist and whatever.

There are many reasons why people believe they exist, such as indoctrination from childhood, believing in fear of ostracism or seeking answers that they perceive science cannot answer. Either way, one of the outcomes of believing in god regardless of what initially made one believe in god, is to serve as a place-holder.


Oh. My bad :whoops: ... Explain the differences to me though, I'm a little confused.

Laymen and scientific theories both are concepts to explain a natural phenomenon, however, the scientific theories are subjected to peer-review, empirical and statistical evidence and impartiality in forming them. To test them, it often involves testing individual hypotheses then forming them into the theory. On the other hand, layman theories are often based on an assumption that is presumed to be true but there is no peer-review, empirical or statistical evidence. It usually is subjective also and based off of what others say although there is a chance for impartiality, usually doesn't occur though.

I say "laymen theory" simply as a way of referring to non-scientific theory and giving it a specific name that is somewhat self-explanatory and helps in comparing to scientific theories.

[Sith Lord 13]

There are many reasons why people believe they exist, such as indoctrination from childhood or seeking answers that they perceive science cannot answer. Either way, one of the outcomes of believing in god regardless of what initially made one believe in god, is to serve as a place-holder.

Perceive?

Again, I'm not taking a side in this argument, mostly because my own beliefs and thoughts are too muddled, but there are questions science cannot answer. Science gives us nukes, but it has noting to say when it comes to their use. Science says if we can or can't do something. Religion tries to tell us if we should do it. Not saying if this is right, wrong, or indifferent, but you have to realize religion plays a role science can never fill.

[INFERNO]

Perceive?

I wasn't quite sure how to word my idea in as few words as possible so as to not do my usual page-long rambling before I make my point. My point included those topics the scientific community acknowledges cannot be answered as well as those topics that can be answered but the person refuses to acknowledge so either out of ignorance or lack of sufficient education of science. The easiest example would be of the evolutionary theory: it cannot work perfectly as acknowledged by the scientific community but some individuals simply believe it doesn't work at all (ignorance and lack of education on it).


Science says if we can or can't do something

By this do you mean can or cannot in terms of morality, ethics, legality or simply what is not possible?


Religion tries to tell us if we should do it

Not all in general but since we are probing Christianity here, then I'll agree for Christian religion.


Not saying if this is right, wrong, or indifferent, but you have to realize religion plays a role science can never fill.

Very true indeed, it can play the part involving morals and ethics, and consequently affect where science can expand on. It also attempts to give the why reason whereas science can but is more suited to the how. Both can answer the same topic but from different views and sadly they are not always independent of one another.

[The Dark Lord]

I don't know by the meaning of that.

I didn't understand halve of what you have said. Since they made no sense at all. I am referring to post Post #47.

Is Albert Einstein the only scientist you know? Because I had doubts whether he was a religious person or no; some says he was a Jew, and some says he was irreligious.

Note, that I have mentioned over 12 scientist who are monotheist. Where you have claimed that a person cannot believe in God if he trust science, and vice versa. I reclaimed that science coexist with religion with the reference of the aforementioned scientist.

But then you have flung in Dawkins. And the rest of the post were very vague.

I am waiting a response.

I'm terribly sorry I was sleeping. You pointlessly mentioned Einstein attempting to add credability to your argument. I don't care what scientists think as you can't prove or disprove God, yet. It is, therefore, irrelevant to name drop scientists who have no proof regarding the existance of God. It is MY belief that you can't believe in both God and science. God and Science don't interwine, they are separate, it would be like saying all right wingers are athesists and all left wingers are religious. If you have to refer to scientists to support your views, then they aren't really your beliefs.

[Magus]

You pointlessly mentioned Einstein attempting to add credability to your argument.

I didn't add Einstein in attempt to add creditability. Again I must say, I had doubt in Einstein's believes. Must I repeat this every time we quote each other?

I don't care what scientists think as you can't prove or disprove God, yet.

We don't have the means to prove God's existence yet, true. But you have just added "Science" in your discussion.

Who are scientist?
"A person with advanced knowledge of one or more sciences"

Also, you have also "droped" Dawkins, but then again you say ""I don't care what scientists think"!?

It is, therefore, irrelevant to name drop scientists who have no proof regarding the existance of God. It is MY belief that you can't believe in both God and science.

How it is irrelevant - and again in your second sentence say that we can't believe in both "God and Science"?

You said it is your belief, huh?

"Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true."

But your belief is fallacious, unfortunately. Hence why I have "name drop" in some of the most important pioneers of science of the last millennium.

God and Science don't interwine, they are separate, it would be like saying all right wingers are athesists and all left wingers are religious.

Science is not a discipline for atheists and only for atheist and skeptics and and what not. Atheists are usually realist and skeptics thus they adhere science.

Religion does not denounce science. Anyone can be religious and at the same time pioneers in science.

If you have to refer to scientists to support your views, then they aren't really your beliefs.

Sorry, I didn't get the last sentence.

I am not supporting my views with scientist. In fact I am refuting your system of belief, "It is MY belief that you can't believe in both God and science". Or, does it have another transcendental stance(your belief)?

Science don't have to be believed. Whatever science presents in its full form is what we call as 'Factual'. Facts aren't supposed to be "believed" they are believed no matter what.

Whereas 'theistic religions' is a different case. It is where the element of 'Faith' in its primal definition is present.

[The Dark Lord]

I didn't add Einstein in attempt to add creditability. Again I must say, I had doubt in Einstein's believes. Must I repeat this every time we quote each other?



We don't have the means to prove God's existence yet, true. But you have just added "Science" in your discussion.

Who are scientist?
"A person with advanced knowledge of one or more sciences"

Also, you have also "droped" Dawkins, but then again you say ""I don't care what scientists think"!?



How it is irrelevant - and again in your second sentence say that we can't believe in both "God and Science"?

You said it is your belief, huh?

"Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true."

But your belief is fallacious, unfortunately. Hence why I have "name drop" in some of the most important pioneers of science of the last millennium.



Science is not a discipline for atheists and only for atheist and skeptics and and what not. Atheists are usually realist and skeptics thus they adhere science.

Religion does not denounce science. Anyone can be religious and at the same time pioneers in science.



Sorry, I didn't get the last sentence.

I am not supporting my views with scientist. In fact I am refuting your system of belief, "It is MY belief that you can't believe in both God and science". Or, does it have another transcendental stance(your belief)?

Science don't have to be believed. Whatever science presents in its full form is what we call as 'Factual'. Facts aren't supposed to be "believed" they are believed no matter what.

Whereas 'theistic religions' is a different case. It is where the element of 'Faith' in its primal definition is present.

Dawkins is a philiospher, not a scientist. Why are you so concerned about my personal beliefs? It is merely an opinion that you can't believe in God and in science. I have absolutely no interest in what some scientists think as, something which you clearly don't understand, religion and beliefs are personal and not dictated by fact/science, otherwise they would be called facts. I believe in the big bang theory and that we have free will, meaning that I don't believe in God, as I see religion as a control mechanism to dictate peoples lives. If you can't accept that, fine I don't care.

[Sith Lord 13]

I wasn't quite sure how to word my idea in as few words as possible so as to not do my usual page-long rambling before I make my point. My point included those topics the scientific community acknowledges cannot be answered as well as those topics that can be answered but the person refuses to acknowledge so either out of ignorance or lack of sufficient education of science. The easiest example would be of the evolutionary theory: it cannot work perfectly as acknowledged by the scientific community but some individuals simply believe it doesn't work at all (ignorance and lack of education on it).

OK. The way I interpreted what you said was to say there was no question science cannot answer. Confusion cleared.


By this do you mean can or cannot in terms of morality, ethics, legality or simply what is not possible?

Simply what is not possible.

Not all in general but since we are probing Christianity here, then I'll agree for Christian religion.

I believe (though I may be wrong) it is true for a majority. But yes, I am focusing on western religions and Christianity in particular, because a) I feel that is where this debate is focusing and b) that is the religion I know the most about.

Very true indeed, it can play the part involving morals and ethics, and consequently affect where science can expand on. It also attempts to give the why reason whereas science can but is more suited to the how. Both can answer the same topic but from different views and sadly they are not always independent of one another.

True. I've taken to referring to science for the questions it's designed to ask only. Science says we can blow up the world with nukes. I take that as a fact. But I don't ask science if we should. It's not a question science can answer. For should we questions, religion has a role. I also feel its proper role is advisor, and not dictator, but that's just me.









It is merely an opinion that you can't believe in God and in science.

I'm not trying to be insulting, but that opinion is blatantly wrong. It's like saying you are of the opinion that the world is flat. You can hold that opinion. But you also must realize that just because you say it doesn't make it true. You can use science to justify your lack of belief in God. But you can also use science to justify your belief in God.

[The Dark Lord]

Its true, we have no way to measure God's presence or his power... that is a strong reason it can be difficult to believe he exists. But, there IS evidence of his existence that we CAN observe, and with that evidence and thinking logically, we can see that God DOES exist.

Excellent! God exists, all those scientists, philosphers etc asking themselves that question, now we have an answer. This truly is fantastic news! Actually thinking logically, or illogically for that matter, there is no proof that God exists unless you know something we don't know, do you?


The Bible has documented a lot historical events. Its not a work of fiction, there are secular (non religious) historical records that verify MANY of the events recorded in the Bible. For example, Jesus DID exist, it was 2000 years ago but we have recorded history from back then, and people of the time didn't deny that he actually existed, OR that he performed miracles, but lets stick to historical events.

The bible has been edited by the churches for several centuries to dictate and control and manipulate your beliefs, it is as useful as Harry Potter.


Matty, I think your point of view is strongly influenced by popular media today. Actually, God DOES want you to question things AND understand why the answer is what it is. Most "Christians" don't actually know what the Bible teaches, they just listen to what their priests or ministers tell them, which is often grossly different from what the Bible tells us.

Believing in the TRUE God does NOT encourage terrorism, nothing could be farther than the truth! A few examples: "If possible, as far as it depends upon you, be peacable with all men" Romans 12:18 and "Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, And anyone loving violence His soul certainly hates." Psalms 11:5

God wants us to be safe and happy, and to return his love. Belief and reliance in God is useful in everything. I only started studying the Bible a few years ago, but since then I've become much happier, and I've been much more successful in all areas of my life. If you think belief in God is worthless, I have to tell you friend, you don't know what you're missing.

well friend I think I'll keep missing out on God because I don't believe he exists. I don't think the bible has been the catalyst in your increased happiness/success, although having said that I did read a really really good novel at the weekend and found a lot of money!


Radical Islamists are totally into terrorism, but that's false religion for you....

Yes, feel free to ignore any religion which disproves your theory

[Death]

@Hanyo: Why do you always feel the need to bash everything you don't agree with? Are you incapable of debating by actually using valid points and evidence instead of just spewing hatred at everything? A 'false religion'? How ignorant.

[Continuum]

I am a bit skeptical about God, but that does not prevent me from worshipping him. It is very unlikely that a chain of random events would happen without some entity guiding it. Not to mention life occurred with a margin of 1 in a million, or maybe even more than that. So somehow, in my belief, God existed. Somehow. Like Friedrich Nietzsche once said that "God is dead" I think that God created the big bang, and died while doing it. Humans have the thought wall that bounds us within our quarters, and preventing us from questioning God, telling us that "He just is.". Religion may be the root of many conflicts and atrocities in history, but, it answers many philosophical questions that is beyond our understanding.

[INFERNO]

I am a bit skeptical about God, but that does not prevent me from worshipping him. It is very unlikely that a chain of random events would happen without some entity guiding it. Not to mention life occurred with a margin of 1 in a million, or maybe even more than that. So somehow, in my belief, God existed. Somehow. Like Friedrich Nietzsche once said that "God is dead" I think that God created the big bang, and died while doing it. Humans have the thought wall that bounds us within our quarters, and preventing us from questioning God, telling us that "He just is.". Religion may be the root of many conflicts and atrocities in history, but, it answers many philosophical questions that is beyond our understanding.

Nietzsche's statement isn't exactly a literal one in that a true god-like being is actually dead.

I'm interested in your view of god dying once making the big bang. I assume that god's death made the "bang" but I'm confused about three things on it. First, many who agree with the Big Bang Theory have also postulated the Big Crunch Theory, whereby the universe caved in on itself and restarted. What is your view on the Big Crunch Theory?

Second, when god existed in your beliefs, I assume this means nothing else was there, only him. When the universe began via Big Bang (i.e. god going bang), do you believe that the universe was then made as is today or that through billions of years after the big bang, the universe was made as it is today? In particular, I'm questioning whether Earth and its position in the solar system was made immediately afterward or if it took billions of years. For whatever your answer is, why?

Third, how and what do you do in worshiping him? Do you worship in church or at home or in a group with others? In your worshiping practices, what do you do?

I'm quite interested because I've never heard of this view on god and the big bang before.

[kyle92]

for me im catholic and i love know there is a god with out him i dont know how i would go throught the day when i scard or sad or i feel so along i just talk to god i may not hear the words or god but i see it with in people i love knowing that there is a better place bewond this world filled with evel i know god is here always looking over me is such a better felling that some one is alway there and looking over you insted of being all alone

[Continuum]

I'm interested in your view of god dying once making the big bang. I assume that god's death made the "bang" but I'm confused about three things on it. First, many who agree with the Big Bang Theory have also postulated the Big Crunch Theory, whereby the universe caved in on itself and restarted. What is your view on the Big Crunch Theory?

Second, when god existed in your beliefs, I assume this means nothing else was there, only him. When the universe began via Big Bang (i.e. god going bang), do you believe that the universe was then made as is today or that through billions of years after the big bang, the universe was made as it is today? In particular, I'm questioning whether Earth and its position in the solar system was made immediately afterward or if it took billions of years. For whatever your answer is, why?

Third, how and what do you do in worshiping him? Do you worship in church or at home or in a group with others? In your worshiping practices, what do you do?

I'm quite interested because I've never heard of this view on god and the big bang before.

I did not say that God died to create the big bang, God got caught by the massive explosion that is the "bang" you are telling me. If he did create the mother particle that created the universe, then it must be the only entity that existed in the timeless void. The big crunch, although a theory, is believed as one of the endings of the universe. The other two, if the universe is open or flat, is also considered by scientists. The big crunch, the ending of a closed universe, ends in everything "crunched" up, otherwise the same moment before the big bang. If God was dead all that time, then there must be another God born to do the same thing. We are not exactly sure because no one lived, or witnessed the whole thing. The universe, in my thoughts, is recycled from the scraps of the old, otherwise caused by the reset button of the God.

Since the universe had an order, I assume that everything was planned before it. The universe was created for billions of years, there are indirect evidences to actually tell us that. Stars for example, if we view them now we're actually seeing the exact same light from thousands of years ago.

I do not pray very much, though I go to sunday church. I was raised catholic by my parents, where in The Philippines Roman Catholicism is the dominant religion. There are some instances in my private reading that gave me the cynical look on God, like how God destroyed the human race and saved a few because he thought of us as evil and uncontrollable.

Nietzsche's statement isn't exactly a literal one in that a true god-like being is actually dead.

It's an allegorical statement. I know.

[Magus]

What is your view on the Big Crunch Theory?

Even though this is directed to our friend, Gaul. I would like to answer this.

It is the "Switch Off"

[Continuum]

Even though this is directed to our friend, Gaul. I would like to answer this.

It is the "Switch Off"

I prefer the term "reset" but that works too. :D

[INFERNO]

I did not say that God died to create the big bang, God got caught by the massive explosion that is the "bang" you are telling me.

I'm still confused by this because if god got caught in the massive explosion, then what triggered the explosion? If he made the explosion, then what was it from because it makes no sense for him to have gotten caught in the explosion if the explosion was himself yet didn't die.

If God was dead all that time, then there must be another God born to do the same thing. We are not exactly sure because no one lived, or witnessed the whole thing. The universe, in my thoughts, is recycled from the scraps of the old, otherwise caused by the reset button of the God.

Since the universe had an order, I assume that everything was planned before it. The universe was created for billions of years, there are indirect evidences to actually tell us that. Stars for example, if we view them now we're actually seeing the exact same light from thousands of years ago.

How does the first universe start then because for it to be planned, God must have existed to plan it out. If subsequent God is made from scraps of the previous one, what made the very first god?

I'm not understanding how seeing light from stars thousands of light years away support your view that everything was planned. It takes so long because there's so much distance to cover but if two objects are placed very far apart, it doesn't mean they were intentionally placed there. Consider a playground and some marbles. I can toss marbles from one location and they can go down a slide and end up somewhere that I never intended nor planned them to go to. However, they can still be very far away from each other.

[Continuum]

I'm still confused by this because if god got caught in the massive explosion, then what triggered the explosion? If he made the explosion, then what was it from because it makes no sense for him to have gotten caught in the explosion if the explosion was himself yet didn't die.



I gotta say if no one really knows for sure, then we are trapped on our philosophical limbo and possibly bound from discovering the true answer to mankind's question. If God didn't cause the explosion, then the "god particle" may have exploded on its own, due to instability or any other plausible reason why.

How does the first universe start then because for it to be planned, God must have existed to plan it out. If subsequent God is made from scraps of the previous one, what made the very first god?

I caught this idea, again, from other religions. In almost all of religions, the end of time is always synonymous to a new guy forming a new start, either from the rubbish of the olden world or do it from scratch. The first God, whom I think started the cycle, didn't just exist because it just was, he had to start this anyway. Consciousness?

I'm not understanding how seeing light from stars thousands of light years away support your view that everything was planned. It takes so long because there's so much distance to cover but if two objects are placed very far apart, it doesn't mean they were intentionally placed there. Consider a playground and some marbles. I can toss marbles from one location and they can go down a slide and end up somewhere that I never intended nor planned them to go to. However, they can still be very far away from each other.

An expanding universe, also known as an open universe.

[Dive to Survive]

There is proof that the Bible is true. You can visit the site of the Ark and whatnot.

[Sage]

There is proof that the Bible is true. You can visit the site of the Ark and whatnot.

Uh, no, there's not. Noah's ark never happened, as a worldwide flood is impossible.

[Amnesiac]

There is proof that the Bible is true. You can visit the site of the Ark and whatnot.

You can visit the alleged site of the ark, but it's just the side of a mountain.

There have been expeditions over the centuries to find remains of Noah's Ark, but none have ever been found, and there is no scientific evidence of the story ever happening. There have been "sightings" and hoaxes, but if you actually go to Mount Ararat in Turkey you'll just find a volcano with nothing on it.

[Death]

There is proof that the Bible is true. You can visit the site of the Ark and whatnot.

Firstly, some random source that says something isn't "proof". Secondly, if I actually believed for one moment that everything that happened in the Bible was actually ture, I'd be pissing myself right now in fear of what its vengeful God (of the old testament, but that would be true since it's part of the Bible, right?) might do to me.

[Continuum]

Firstly, some random source that says something isn't "proof".

Uh, it's not random. It's a collection of scripture from different time periods and locations and compiled into a single book. It is not totally random (except the first part of Genesis, which is most likely fiction; and the revelation of john that is mostly composed of metaphorical and symbolic statements about the end of time)

[zebra_]

i think god is just a good idea, uknow? like when u get desperate, u pray for things to get better.

for people hearing or talking to god, i hear its usually in a dream, thats just a dream, u create ur own dreams. and for those who just hear him outta nowhere completely conscious, then ur prolly crazy....

not a great argument but owell.

[Continuum]

i think god is just a good idea, uknow? like when u get desperate, u pray for things to get better.

for people hearing or talking to god, i hear its usually in a dream, thats just a dream, u create ur own dreams. and for those who just hear him outta nowhere completely conscious, then ur prolly crazy....

not a great argument but owell.

Exactly. When people are in doubt, in need, or wanted someone to cry on, they turn to God. Barely religious persons, like me, also turn to him in case everything goes bad against me, because he is the greatest neutral being that is. :D

[The Dark Lord]

There is proof that the Bible is true. You can visit the site of the Ark and whatnot.

The bible has been edited by the church throughout the generations to dictate your beliefs, making in an invalid source

[Sith Lord 13]

The bible has been edited by the church throughout the generations to dictate your beliefs, making in an invalid source

So has your history book. So has the news. Each one is edited by a different source (unless you're in a non-free state in which case it's all being done by the government) but they're still being edited, tweaked to fit the writer and the editor's agenda. Doesn't mean you should flat out throw it out. Just be skeptical of what it says.

[The Dark Lord]

So has your history book. So has the news. Each one is edited by a different source (unless you're in a non-free state in which case it's all being done by the government) but they're still being edited, tweaked to fit the writer and the editor's agenda. Doesn't mean you should flat out throw it out. Just be skeptical of what it says.

History is factual and everyone draws their own conclusions from these facts, this is called historiography. Censorship of the press is illegal. Anyway, I think that a book based on a religion should be looked at in more detail than the newspaper's take on a cabinet minister cheating on his wife.

[Sith Lord 13]

History is factual and everyone draws their own conclusions from these facts, this is called historiography. Censorship of the press is illegal. Anyway, I think that a book based on a religion should be looked at in more detail than the newspaper's take on a cabinet minister cheating on his wife.

First off, censorship of the press is not illegal in any country I know of. It's just harder to justify legally in some places than it is in others. In China, the press is freely censored. In the US and, correct me if I'm wrong, the UK, a newspaper cannot publish classified government secrets, even if they are privy to them. For example they cannot publish the location of a military unit in hostile territory, even if they have an embedded reporter.

Second, even without government interference, the press is not "free". They have to appeal to the public. "Never let the facts get in the way of a good story." Take a look at global warming. The majority of scientists say it's bullshit. Some are even afraid of a global cooling. But newspapers have run with it, and now everybody believes the earth is going to heat up to the point that the air is going to catch fire. (I actually know some people, who actually believed that.)

Honestly, I view the historical parts of the bible like this: "Who gives a crap?" The only thing that really matters in there is the moral teachings, and I think those teachings are a great place for your ethical beliefs to start. There are some pretty good ideas in there. There are a few idiotic ones, but for the most part, we're talking pretty sensible ideas.

As for religious beliefs, anyone who's unwilling to listen with an open mind is just as stupid as one who believes everything he's told.

[Death]

Uh, it's not random.

It's still just one source and only a blind fool would think that it confirms God's existance with certainty.

[The Dark Lord]

First off, censorship of the press is not illegal in any country I know of. It's just harder to justify legally in some places than it is in others. In China, the press is freely censored. In the US and, correct me if I'm wrong, the UK, a newspaper cannot publish classified government secrets, even if they are privy to them. For example they cannot publish the location of a military unit in hostile territory, even if they have an embedded reporter.

Second, even without government interference, the press is not "free". They have to appeal to the public. "Never let the facts get in the way of a good story." Take a look at global warming. The majority of scientists say it's bullshit. Some are even afraid of a global cooling. But newspapers have run with it, and now everybody believes the earth is going to heat up to the point that the air is going to catch fire. (I actually know some people, who actually believed that.)

Honestly, I view the historical parts of the bible like this: "Who gives a crap?" The only thing that really matters in there is the moral teachings, and I think those teachings are a great place for your ethical beliefs to start. There are some pretty good ideas in there. There are a few idiotic ones, but for the most part, we're talking pretty sensible ideas.

As for religious beliefs, anyone who's unwilling to listen with an open mind is just as stupid as one who believes everything he's told.

Freedom of Press Act allows the press to print stories. However, only an idiot would think that the newspapers would sacrifice national security for a good story.

As for you view that the bible is a great place for ethical beliefs, read my signature

[Sith Lord 13]

Freedom of Press Act allows the press to print stories. However, only an idiot would think that the newspapers would sacrifice national security for a good story.

As for you view that the bible is a great place for ethical beliefs, read my signature

And I have to disagree. For good people to do bad things only takes a compelling belief in SOMETHING. If you'll pardon me for using an example from American history, look at the days leading up to the McCarthy hearings. Nothing to do with religion, but a great many good people did bad things in the name of preventing Communism.

Also, if you look at the beliefs listed in the bible, you'll find many that are the basis of the western judicial system. Also, your signature references religion, I was referring to the bible. They are two very different things, and I'd request you remember that.

[Ryhanna]

It's just a belief.

People want to have something to believe in - Like a security blanket. When all else fails, there's God. It's essentially a safety net to believers. Which is why no matter how much evidence science has they will always believe in God.

Sure, most of them will believe that God never created the universe and that science is right... but they'll also always have God, because God is like an imaginary friend to them.

[Death]

Beliveing because they want to believe, not because they know. You make it sound like they're lying to themselves...

[Ryhanna]

Some of them are.

Some truly believe there is a God and serve him, others accept that God probably doesn't exist but continue to believe in him for universal guidance.

[Death]

Is the latter truly believing in God though? Thinking that God doesn't exist but believing in him seem to contrast to me.

[punkjake]

I believe in God and science.I just mix the two together.I was not brain washed, I just think the fact we appered out of nothing is super hard to believe ,and how life fit perfectly, oh wait that's evolution but what life force/energy could do this?I shall name him God,He is ours ,I shall call our God XD

[Apparitions]

I believe in God and science.I just mix the two together.I was not brain washed, I just think the fact we appered out of nothing is super hard to believe ,and how life fit perfectly, oh wait that's evolution but what life force/energy could do this?I shall name him God,He is ours ,I shall call our God XD
God and Science? Impossible (or at least very unlikely). You think that the fact (interesting that you refer to it as a fact...) that we came from nothing is hard to believe when you probably think that a big man with a beard sitting on a cloud in the sky made the universe and life in 6 days and rested on the 7th? Why name him (why not her, it or them?) God when there are many other things to call it/them? Why is your God 'ours'? Sorry for all the questions but your beliefs are not really very logical.

[Continuum]

You think that the fact (interesting that you refer to it as a fact...) that we came from nothing is hard to believe when you probably think that a big man with a beard sitting on a cloud in the sky made the universe and life in 6 days and rested on the 7th?

Christianity is constantly striving to adapt to the new scientific facts about the universe. In the end, there is not much to believe, other than God is beyond humanity's event horizon and therefore a waste of time for everyone who try to interpret his existence.


Some truly believe there is a God and serve him, others accept that God probably doesn't exist but continue to believe in him for universal guidance.

Sure he is. He's the ultimate answer to humanity's greatest questions.

WHO CREATED THE UNIVERSE? God.
WHY ARE WE HERE? Because God wanted to play god's playing field.
SO WHY ARE ANIMALS HERE? Because God thought humans would be lonely.
WHO MADE ME AND MY PARENTS? God.
PLEASE WHO WILL HELP ME PASS THIS TEST? God.
CRAP I LOST MY PEN CAN ANYONE HELP ME? God will.
OMG IT'S 2012 HELP US. *prays to God*

[Death]

oh wait that's evolution but what life force/energy could do this?

The same energy that has and will be in our universe indefinetely. Matter is eternal; all the matter and energy from which our universe always existed since it can never be created or destroyed. Also, if the universe requires a creater, so does God.

Christianity is constantly striving to adapt to the new scientific facts about the universe. In the end, there is not much to believe, other than God is beyond humanity's event horizon and therefore a waste of time for everyone who try to interpret his existence.

Why should they need to adapt? If the Bible is correct, then the Christians should have been right from the start, and yet they weren't. Take the story of Adam and Eve for instance. Modern science has proven it wrong, so why is it in the bible? Becasue the bible is not the whole truth. Personally, I don't think it's even close.

Sure he is. He's the ultimate answer to humanity's greatest questions.
WHO CREATED THE UNIVERSE? God.
WHY ARE WE HERE? Because God wanted to play god's playing field.
SO WHY ARE ANIMALS HERE? Because God thought humans would be lonely.
WHO MADE ME AND MY PARENTS? God.
PLEASE WHO WILL HELP ME PASS THIS TEST? God.
CRAP I LOST MY PEN CAN ANYONE HELP ME? God will.
OMG IT'S 2012 HELP US. *prays to God*

Geez, fanatic much? I've yet to hear you explain yourself on this one.

[Perseus]

Why should they need to adapt? If the Bible is correct, then the Christians should have been right from the start, and yet they weren't. Take the story of Adam and Eve for instance. Modern science has proven it wrong, so why is it in the bible? Becasue the bible is not the whole truth. Personally, I don't think it's even close.


Adam and Eve are actually symbolic. Adam means "man" and Eve means "life", in the old language of the Semites, related to the Hebrews. See, man was tempted by life during the agricultural revolution; the temptation was to go on and make their own food and not use what God "provided" for them. The Semites stuck to their old life of herding animals and didn't farm, and they looked down upon this farming discovery. There's more to this, but I can't remember it all.

[Dive to Survive]

Uh, no, there's not. Noah's ark never happened, as a worldwide flood is impossible.

Why impossible?

[Bryan B]

Why impossible?

Why Impossible ?

"1. Building the Ark

Wood is not the best material for shipbuilding. It is not enough that a ship be built to hold together; it must also be sturdy enough that the changing stresses don't open gaps in its hull. Wood is simply not strong enough to prevent separation between the joints, especially in the heavy seas that the Ark would have encountered. The longest wooden ships in modern seas are about 300 feet, and these require reinforcing with iron straps and leak so badly they must be constantly pumped. The ark was 450 feet long [ Gen. 6:15]. Could an ark that size be made seaworthy?"

"2. Gathering the Animals

Bringing all kinds of animals together in the vicinity of the ark presents significant problems.

Could animals have traveled from elsewhere? If the animals traveled from other parts of the world, many of them would have faced extreme difficulties.

Some, like sloths and penguins, can't travel overland very well at all.
Some, like koalas and many insects, require a special diet. How did they bring it along?
Some cave-dwelling arthropods can't survive in less than 100% relative humidity.
Some, like dodos, must have lived on islands. If they didn't, they would have been easy prey for other animals. When mainland species like rats or pigs are introduced to islands, they drive many indigenous species to extinction. Those species would not have been able to survive such competition if they lived where mainland species could get at them before the Flood...."

"5. The Flood Itself

Where did the Flood water come from, and where did it go? Several people have proposed answers to these questions, but none which consider all the implications of their models. A few of the commonly cited models are addressed below."

And Much more, just point out some
Reference:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

--
Ok so why did god want to flood the world ?, just because he is pissed that people sin ??? , oh, yes he "loves" everyone and "forgive" us

--
There is proof that the Bible is true. You can visit the site of the Ark and whatnot.

Really ? by who ? The Church ?

[Ryhanna]

Is the latter truly believing in God though? Thinking that God doesn't exist but believing in him seem to contrast to me.

To you maybe, but obviously not the them. As I said, God acts as their safety net. When they're lost, that's where they go to.

[Kuervo]

believing in God is by faith. we believe tht there has to be a creator of some sort. but God is supernatural, it cant be proved but by faith we know Hes there by faith. science is just science, which is provable. nvr combine science and religion. supernatural and natural dont mix. thts y science cant prove tht souls exist..............i didnt even answer the question =P.......im in a private Catholic school soo yh hence this lol but theyve taught me a lot of God and y to believe in him

[Continuum]

Why should they need to adapt? If the Bible is correct, then the Christians should have been right from the start, and yet they weren't. Take the story of Adam and Eve for instance. Modern science has proven it wrong, so why is it in the bible? Becasue the bible is not the whole truth. Personally, I don't think it's even close.



The creation myth is there because we are using the same story that was used before by medieval Christians and the people before them who worshiped God. They don't have science or crap to explain things. It wouldn't be wise to revise the bible and label the first part with red letters "FAKE WITH PROOF" just because it's fictional

Geez, fanatic much? I've yet to hear you explain yourself on this one.

I'm not speaking for myself. I'm using several examples of questions and demands by religious people for easier understanding that God is the fail safe system for people incase something bad happens



Thinking people have free will, it would be best to let them choose who to worship and what to believe. I didn't choose to be a Christian, but it is mandatory because a majority of people residing here are Catholic. Hell, you'd rarely see a protestant in schools here.

[Death]

The creation myth is there because we are using the same story that was used before by medieval Christians and the people before them who worshiped God. They don't have science or crap to explain things. It wouldn't be wise to revise the bible and label the first part with red letters "FAKE WITH PROOF" just because it's fictional

So you don't believe that the Bible is the whole truth then?

I didn't choose to be a Christian, but it is mandatory because a majority of people residing here are Catholic. Hell, you'd rarely see a protestant in schools here.

If you didn't choose what your religion is? Can't people always think for themselves? Or are you referring to baptism?

[Continuum]

If you didn't choose what your religion is? Can't people always think for themselves? Or are you referring to baptism?


Infants can't choose so parents have to choose for them.

[Death]

But you don't have to believe it. As humans, we are intelligent enough to decide for ourselves that what we are brainwashed into believing is not true.

[Apparitions]

Infants can't choose so parents have to choose for them.
Why force a religion on them that they may not want to be part of when they are older? That is just wrong and one of the reasons why I dislike religion intensely. Parents should teach their child about all religions including Atheism and Agnosticism (that is the name, right?) and when they are ready let them choose the one they want to live their life by. It is the only fair way to deal with religion IMHO. Parents don't have to choose for them, they should choose for themselves when older otherwise it is just brainwashing your child and making them ignorant of other religions.

[The Dark Lord]

Why force a religion on them that they may not want to be part of when they are older? That is just wrong and one of the reasons why I dislike religion intensely. Parents should teach their child about all religions including Atheism and Agnosticism (that is the name, right?) and when they are ready let them choose the one they want to live their life by. It is the only fair way to deal with religion IMHO. Parents don't have to choose for them, they should choose for themselves when older otherwise it is just brainwashing your child and making them ignorant of other religions.

Agreed. It is manipulative and Nazi-like the way parents force religion upon their children. Children should be allowed to chose their own religion or not be religious at all.

[Death]

Agreed also. Gaul, are you seriously saying that you've allowed your parents to manipulate you into believe in a religion without even thinking to yourself about what you think happened?

[tpzy94]

Ok well why don't you believe in God...just because some scientist says its true desnt mean it is...HUMANS make mistakes....GOD doesn't i believe in God because scientists cant prove how adam and eve were made or how animals got here...scientists didn't make them or the sun or ne of that that stuff isn't man made...its like how do you wake up every morning not ur parents or your alarm clock its beyond our control...everything is predestined and God knows what yuu are going to do next matter of fact just pray one day start out Dear Lord Thank you for waking me up and for my family bein safe ask him to fix a prob of yours and if you completely give it up to him then and only then will your problem b fixed...works for me every single tyme...mite nt happen wen you want it but he's always on tyme...

[Sage]

Oh boy, this will be fun.

Ok well why don't you believe in God...
There is no evidence to suggest one exists.

just because some scientist says its true desnt mean it is...
Nobody just blindly follows whatever scientists say. People follow what scientists say because they can give evidence and explain their theories in a manner that makes sense.

HUMANS make mistakes....GOD doesn't
God makes mistakes all the time. For instance, Christianity's mythology begins in the Old Testament, which tell moral stories to live by and provides a moral foundation and set of of guidelines to live by. If God is a perfect being, then his words should be eternally great pieces of wisdom that transcend time period and culture and remain relevant even in this day and age. However, such profound wisdom like paying money to the father of a woman you rape to keep her and stoning disobedient children to death are horrible things to do. If God is perfect, his moral guidelines shouldn't have to change over time in the New Testament.

i believe in God because scientists cant prove how adam and eve were made
There is no Adam and Eve.

or how animals got here...
Abiogenesis and the theory of evolution by natural selection.

scientists didn't make them
Obviously.

or the sun
Yeah. Nobody made the sun. Go read up on the big bang theory, galactic formation, and the life cycles of stars.

its like how do you wake up every morning not ur parents or your alarm clock its beyond our control...
No, I'm pretty sure I get up because I don't feel like sleeping after a few hours.

everything is predestined
There is no way to prove that. And even if it were true, why then would God create people who are destined not to believe in him or follow different religious beliefs and then burn in Hell? Making people just to burn them for all eternity? Your god is an evil motherfucker.

and God knows what yuu are going to do next
Further discredit everything you have to share in a religious debate?

matter of fact just pray one day
Prayer doesn't work.

start out Dear Lord Thank you for waking me up and for my family bein safe ask him to fix a prob of yours and if you completely give it up to him then and only then will your problem b fixed...works for me every single tyme...mite nt happen wen you want it but he's always on tyme...
See above point.

[Shortkid]

I believe God exists because I can just "feel" it. It feels right and I that trusting my feelings gives me the best clue on anything that I'm unsure about.

Chris

[Sage]

I believe God exists because I can just "feel" it. It feels right and I that trusting my feelings gives me the best clue on anything that I'm unsure about.

Alas, wanting something to be so does not make it so.

[deadpie]

WHO CREATED THE UNIVERSE? God.
WHY ARE WE HERE? Because God wanted to play god's playing field.
SO WHY ARE ANIMALS HERE? Because God thought humans would be lonely.
WHO MADE ME AND MY PARENTS? God.
PLEASE WHO WILL HELP ME PASS THIS TEST? God.
CRAP I LOST MY PEN CAN ANYONE HELP ME? God will.
OMG IT'S 2012 HELP US. *prays to God*

Evidence?

To you maybe, but obviously not the them. As I said, God acts as their safety net. When they're lost, that's where they go to.

Then the LORD said to me, "Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn't help them. Away with them! Get them out of my sight! And if they say to you, 'But where can we go?' tell them, 'This is what the LORD says: Those who are destined for death, to death; those who are destined for war, to war; those who are destined for famine, to famine; those who are destined for captivity, to captivity.' "I will send four kinds of destroyers against them," says the LORD. "I will send the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, the vultures to devour, and the wild animals to finish up what is left. Because of the wicked things Manasseh son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem, I will make my people an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth." (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT)

I wouldn't feel so safe with God if I were you.

[Heretic]

I'm just debating for the sake of debating. This isn't really my view but I feel like throwing it in here.


Say you're walking down a path and on this path is a watch. It's of very high craftsmanship and looks expensive. You wouldn't think "Oh hey, look at this watch that just appeared here by chance, that's so cool". You'd think, "Someone made this watch, and what a nice watch it is." Why would it be any different when it comes to god? Surely if we were logical we would think that someone made all this and that it didn't just poof?

[Awesome]

Just believe in what you want to believe.

[Sage]

Just believe in what you want to believe.

Why believe in anything that you can't defend in debate? If you can't defend your beliefs, then you shouldn't hold them.

[The Dark Lord]

I believe God exists because I can just "feel" it. It feels right and I that trusting my feelings gives me the best clue on anything that I'm unsure about.

Chris

Excellent point, Chris. God must be real if you can feel it. I have a feeling that Michael Jackson isn't dead, which means both our feelings are crap.

[Ryhanna]

I wouldn't feel so safe with God if I were you.

I dont recall saying I did.

I'm just getting the feeling thats why most believe due to my experience attending a Catholic school. Many of my teachers and even Catholic students have said in classes they feel this way...

[Continuum]

Evidence?



Did you read my previous statements? I used them as examples, not to use God as answers to everything. That'd be lazy.


Agreed also. Gaul, are you seriously saying that you've allowed your parents to manipulate you into believe in a religion without even thinking to yourself about what you think happened?


Of course I can think for myself. It's just that filial piety is as influencing as my own thoughts are. Sometimes, you can never deny your parent's judgement and you just want to agree with them unconditionally. They raised me as a Catholic, and made me love Jesus because of their faith.

Prayer doesn't work.


It would be best to not tackle the pure power of faith. It's just is.


Why force a religion on them that they may not want to be part of when they are older? That is just wrong and one of the reasons why I dislike religion intensely. Parents should teach their child about all religions including Atheism and Agnosticism (that is the name, right?) and when they are ready let them choose the one they want to live their life by. It is the only fair way to deal with religion IMHO. Parents don't have to choose for them, they should choose for themselves when older otherwise it is just brainwashing your child and making them ignorant of other religions.

I am a very spiritual person, I disdain organized religion in every way. People should have individual beliefs for themselves. If their children want to believe in the faith of their parents then so be it. If other people want to believe in that person then let them be. I believe organized religion is the modern imperialism and became a tool for people to control the weak and the strong. If you see the demographic map on religions in most parts of the world Christianity has the largest share, aka empire. Europeans brought their faiths to everywhere in the world on their colonial sprees on asia, africa, australia and the americas, so there's no doubt its big.

[Perseus]

Ok well why don't you believe in God...just because some scientist says its true desnt mean it is...HUMANS make mistakes....GOD doesn't i believe in God because scientists cant prove how adam and eve were made or how animals got here...scientists didn't make them or the sun or ne of that that stuff isn't man made...its like how do you wake up every morning not ur parents or your alarm clock its beyond our control...everything is predestined and God knows what yuu are going to do next matter of fact just pray one day start out Dear Lord Thank you for waking me up and for my family bein safe ask him to fix a prob of yours and if you completely give it up to him then and only then will your problem b fixed...works for me every single tyme...mite nt happen wen you want it but he's always on tyme...

Read my post about Adam and Eve.

[deadpie]

Did you read my previous statements? I used them as examples, not to use God as answers to everything. That'd be lazy.


Those examples don't prove anything. I asked for evidence or proof.

[Apparitions]

I was looking forward to a post like this. I feel like a 5 year old on Christmas Day now :D ...

Ok well why don't you believe in God...just because some scientist says its true desnt mean it is...Because there is no proof at all of any kind of God/deity.
HUMANS make mistakes....GOD doesn't i believe in God because scientists cant prove how adam and eve were made or how animals got here
But they were never made. No proof, again. Religion can't prove shit. That first bit doesn't even make sense...
scientists didn't make them or the sun or ne of that that stuff isn't man made...its like how do you wake up every morning not ur parents or your alarm clock its beyond our control...everything is predestined and God knows what yuu are going to do next No scientist has ever claimed they did. You could back up you claims with PROOF (oh wait, Theists aren't very good at that )
matter of fact just pray one day start out Dear Lord Thank you for waking me up and for my family bein safe ask him to fix a prob of yours and if you completely give it up to him then and only then will your problem b fixed...works for me every single tyme...mite nt happen wen you want it but he's always on tyme... If I'm Atheist, why the fuck would I pray to a false God? You haven't thought this through, have you? When you pray, you are speaking to yourself which is a sign of madness. Just a thought...

Well, that was fun...

[Sage]

I'm just getting the feeling thats why most believe due to my experience attending a Catholic school.
So you admit that you believe because it's been beaten into your skull your entire life and your position is one of complete and total bias.


Of course I can think for myself. It's just that filial piety is as influencing as my own thoughts are.
Because you've been indoctrinated into it.

Sometimes, you can never deny your parent's judgement and you just want to agree with them unconditionally.
Funny how I and many other people have never felt that way. Agreeing with anybody completely and obeying all their judgments is the very definition of a fool.

They raised me as a Catholic, and made me love Jesus because of their faith.
So much for thinking for yourself.

It would be best to not tackle the pure power of faith. It's just is.
Faith does not have power. For every claim you have of prayer being successful in your life, there are countless others of completely different faiths who also claim to have had their prayers answered. Likewise, there are just as many who have prayed to their gods (including yours) and their wishes have not been answered. As I said earlier: Wanting something to be so does not make it so.

I am a very spiritual person
Gaul, what do you define a 'spirit' as?

People should have individual beliefs for themselves.
Self-contradicting after you state:
Sometimes, you can never deny your parent's judgement and you just want to agree with them unconditionally.
and:
They raised me as a Catholic, and made me love Jesus because of their faith.

Now, moving on...

If their children want to believe in the faith of their parents then so be it.
Nobody said you're not allowed to. I am simply saying that in doing so you aren't thinking for yourself.

I believe organized religion is the modern imperialism and became a tool for people to control the weak and the strong.
became a tool for people to control the weak and the strong.
to control the weak
Sometimes, you can never deny your parent's judgement and you just want to agree with them unconditionally.

Moving on once again...

If you see the demographic map on religions in most parts of the world Christianity has the largest share, aka empire. Europeans brought their faiths to everywhere in the world on their colonial sprees on asia, africa, australia and the americas, so there's no doubt its big.
Your point?

[Death]

I believe God exists because I can just "feel" it. It feels right and I that trusting my feelings gives me the best clue on anything that I'm unsure about.

You feel that God exists? No offence, but that is a pretty lame reason by itself. Care to elaborate on how you can tell he exists?

Ok well why don't you believe in God

Why do you believe in God? Same principle.

...just because some scientist says its true desnt mean it is...

*Yawn*, this line is just begging to be turned on its head. Just because some archaic, outdated book says something's true, it doesn't mean it is.

HUMANS make mistakes....GOD doesn't

Have you ever even read the bible?

i believe in God because scientists cant prove how adam and eve were made

Do you know anything about what scientists believe? Fuck, most Christians don't even believe that Adam and Eve existed.

or how animals got here...scientists didn't make them or the sun or ne of that that stuff isn't man made

Of couse scientists didn't make them! No-one did! What you're saying isn't actually suggesting anything. Do you even know what you're talking about here?

...its like how do you wake up every morning not ur parents or your alarm clock its beyond our control...

Your point?

everything is predestined and God knows what yuu are going to do

Predestined by whom? God? Then he seriously has issues because he will then have 'predestined' all the terrible things that happen too.

next matter of fact just pray one day start out Dear Lord Thank you for waking me up and for my family bein safe ask him to fix a prob of yours and if you completely give it up to him then and only then will your problem b fixed

Holy shit, are you actually being serious? I don't usually say this, but I'm starting to wonder if you're just trolling. You wake up because you're designed too. And what about the times when your family die in their sleep? And do you seriously believe that praying gets the job done? Then why are there so many unanswered prayers? Why do people have so many issues such as getting over anorexia or cancer? Do they pray? Some of them will. Do they get better? Most of them won't.

...works for me every single tyme...mite nt happen wen you want it but he's always on tyme...

So it works for you but it might not for us? You must be wrong. Are you seriously telling me that every time you pray, your problem is fixed? By the way, no offence, but I found it difficult to understand what you were trying to say. Next time, would you mind typing coherantly? Thanks.

[Jess]

Ok well why don't you believe in God...just because some scientist says its true desnt mean it is...HUMANS make mistakes....GOD doesn't i believe in God because scientists cant prove how adam and eve were made or how animals got here...scientists didn't make them or the sun or ne of that that stuff isn't man made...its like how do you wake up every morning not ur parents or your alarm clock its beyond our control...everything is predestined and God knows what yuu are going to do next matter of fact just pray one day start out Dear Lord Thank you for waking me up and for my family bein safe ask him to fix a prob of yours and if you completely give it up to him then and only then will your problem b fixed...works for me every single tyme...mite nt happen wen you want it but he's always on tyme...

uh as other people said before praying doesn't necessarily help, and did you ever read the Bible? And what God did?

[INFERNO]

Ok well why don't you believe in God...just because some scientist says its true desnt mean it is

I don't believe in God not because science has swayed me but because I was a Christian for many years, went to masses, public Christian schools that were very focused on getting young kids to agree with Christianity, etc... . I've read most of the bible, engages in debates with people online (not necessarily here) and read critiques on it. From that, I concluded I don't believe in the Christian god. I study science but that is not a reason for my disbelief because the two are not mutually exclusive.

Also, you bash science and scientists, and if you don't accept science that's fine by me. However, you seem to not know a single thing about it so I seem to be asking this question to many Christians like you and never get a non-biblical answer (or just no answer):

How can you accept or deny something when you do not know what that something is?

Given your lack of understanding, for all you know, science may be your god but you have no way to refute me if you don't know what science is. You seem to somewhat know your god (can test this assumption later) but if you don't know what science is, it may be what your god is. Show me otherwise by telling me what science really is in the modern society or dictionary?


...HUMANS make mistakes....GOD doesn't

This is the problem when you do not read the bible because although some parts say god is perfect, other parts show how god admits he screwed up pretty badly. For example:

The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain (Genesis 6:6)


i believe in God because scientists cant prove how adam and eve were made

Science could do so IF there was some proof of their actual existence, other than the biblical story. Key word: STORY. Your argument is just the same as saying you don't believe in science because science cannot prove that the Cat in the Hat is real. It's a fictional story, made up, derived from one's own imagination. I say this because there is no proof otherwise.


or how animals got here

Actually science can do that. It can show how you and I got here.


...scientists didn't make them or the sun or ne of that that stuff isn't man made

Let's try to come back to reality, shall we? People didn't make the sun is a given.

Assuming that humans cannot explain why humans got here, how can humans explain why other humans get struck with a certain illness or pathogen? The pathogen wasn't part of the person when the person was made, it came later yet humans can explain that. Humans can also develop effective medical procedures to hopefully combat the pathogen, meaning humans advanced. Humans made clones, hence, they made animals.

The point is, humans can make many things including other organisms because we understand them but this knowledge was not given to us all at once.


...its like how do you wake up every morning not ur parents or your alarm clock its beyond our control

So when I set my alarm clock at bed, when morning time comes, the alarm clock doesn't play music or other sounds? I'm pretty sure it did. I'm also pretty sure the alarm clocks for my parents did too. It must be an amazing coincidence that when the alarm rings... I wake up! God is not prodding me with a cattle prod to wake me up, the alarm clock is making noise and I wake up. God did not set the alarm, I did.


...everything is predestined and God knows what yuu are going to do next matter of fact just pray one day start out Dear Lord Thank you for waking me up and for my family bein safe ask him to fix a prob of yours and if you completely give it up to him then and only then will your problem b fixed...works for me every single tyme...mite nt happen wen you want it but he's always on tyme...

Why bother to pray if everything is predestined? If you're going to get into an accident tomorrow, praying the night before isn't going to prevent it because it's already made. According to you, since everything is made and is beyond our control, God pre-programmed his beings to worship him but it gives no benefit to them because whatever he has planned will happen anyways.

Any problems you encounter, God will fix in some way but your praying doesn't matter.

The point I'm making is, your own stance is unraveling itself and breaking apart the more it's looked into and the more you type about it.

[Apparitions]

....

[Perseus]

Y


Do you know anything about what scientists believe? Fuck, most Christians don't even believe that Adam and Eve existed.





You be trippin'. Most Christians I know believe Adam and Eve existed. What a silly statement.

[Continuum]

Those examples don't prove anything. I asked for evidence or proof.

Proof doesn't matter. To extremists that is the answer to all. No questions raised by them, no answer. Just, GOD. hmm

[Heretic]

Can you guys stop ripping on the brain dead religious nut and tackle my post? I'd love if any of you would get off your high moral horse and try something challenging.

[Continuum]

Funny how I and many other people have never felt that way. Agreeing with anybody completely and obeying all their judgments is the very definition of a fool.



Filial Piety is optional, or in this case mandatory, if you want to keep a good image. Respecting them, their judgments and their opinions for you is needed. Not to say all of their opinions are right and needed to be obeyed, they're just an influencing factor in deciding.



Faith does not have power. For every claim you have of prayer being successful in your life, there are countless others of completely different faiths who also claim to have had their prayers answered. Likewise, there are just as many who have prayed to their gods (including yours) and their wishes have not been answered. As I said earlier: Wanting something to be so does not make it so.



Being faithful does not necessarily tell that you're going to "win" or succeed in life, but if paired with action it could help. By believing that you could the chances are, you can.




Nobody said you're not allowed to. I am simply saying that in doing so you aren't thinking for yourself.



I chose that belief. That is still called thinking for yourself because I decided what to believe in out of free will.

[jesusfreak77]

I believe in God because he has revealed to me who he is:) Just b open minded to him..i mean, The universe didnt just randomly form. "God was the beginning". By faith, God has shown me who he is..in just amazing and supernatural ways! Did u kno that archeaologists have found noah's ark!!?? I guess its on a mountain in Turkey. But how cool is that:)

[Heretic]

I believe in God because he has revealed to me who he is:) Just b open minded to him..i mean, The universe didnt just randomly form. "God was the beginning". By faith, God has shown me who he is..in just amazing and supernatural ways! Did u kno that archeaologists have found noah's ark!!?? I guess its on a mountain in Turkey. But how cool is that:)

They found some old wood on a mountain. People that want to see the ark see the ark. People that don't have an opinion either way see some wood. And I'd love to hear some proof of this god you speak of. Based on your blind faith in something completely illogical I don't have a reason to believe your testimony.

[INFERNO]

Say you're walking down a path and on this path is a watch. It's of very high craftsmanship and looks expensive. You wouldn't think "Oh hey, look at this watch that just appeared here by chance, that's so cool". You'd think, "Someone made this watch, and what a nice watch it is."

Your example doesn't make much sense because anyone who finds some lost item is going to know it's because of chance. There's no guaruntee that while walking on a path you'll stumble upon a nice watch, a bundle of cash or a corpse, it is a coincidence. Because you rejected the fact of chance, you assert the watch was purposely placed on a random path for you to happen to stumble upon.


Why would it be any different when it comes to god? Surely if we were logical we would think that someone made all this and that it didn't just poof?

Which god are you referring to?

Are you referring to god being made by someone or the stuff in the world being made by god? If the first, that boils down to the first cause argument. If the latter, your argument is pathetic because the world can be made in many ways, god is a potential candidate but you've ignored all other possibilities for no explained reason.

I'm confused by what you're trying to get at when you mention "if we were logical" because logic and god are often said not to mix. So are you supporting god or not?

[Iron Man]

I wonder also. I myself don`t believe in god. All of those years, I was brainwashed into believing that he is the all-creator. Then, I wised up and found that science better explains the creation of everything. Also, I got tired of "god is listening, but you have to help yourself" crap.

[Ryhanna]

So you admit that you believe because it's been beaten into your skull your entire life and your position is one of complete and total bias.


I fail to see how you can be biased on why people believe in God. It's there own beliefs, theres not really any facts to be biased on.

[Sage]

It's there own beliefs, theres not really any facts to be biased on.

That's the entire problem, you see. There aren't any facts. At all.

[Death]

You be trippin'. Most Christians I know believe Adam and Eve existed. What a silly statement.

No Perseus, I'm being deadly serious - again. I know plenty of Christians who believe that the story of Adam and Eve (along with the majority of the old testament) is false. Mainly because it either literally does go against science, or they believe that testament ot simply be irrevelant because of its age and being before Jesus existed. Christians pick and mix a lot more than you'd think (as in they rely on the new testament more) - especially the ones I know. What a silly statement.

[Sage]

I know plenty of Christians who believe that the story of Adam and Eve (along with the majority of the old testament) is false.

I second this, most christians I've ever met don't take that story literally.

[Perseus]

No Perseus, I'm being deadly serious - again. I know plenty of Christians who believe that the story of Adam and Eve (along with the majority of the old testament) is false. Mainly because it either literally does go against science, or they believe that testament ot simply be irrevelant because of its age and being before Jesus existed. Christians pick and mix a lot more than you'd think (as in they rely on the new testament more) - especially the ones I know. What a silly statement.

I second this, most christians I've ever met don't take that story literally.

Wow, us Southerners are some odd people. I don't believe in Adam and Eve for many reasons, such as my post people like to ignore, and the fact it is illogical in every aspect. Two people can't start an entire race. But yep, people down here enjoy Genesis and all that other fun stuff in the Old Testament and New Testament.

[Heretic]

Your example doesn't make much sense because anyone who finds some lost item is going to know it's because of chance. There's no guaruntee that while walking on a path you'll stumble upon a nice watch, a bundle of cash or a corpse, it is a coincidence. Because you rejected the fact of chance, you assert the watch was purposely placed on a random path for you to happen to stumble upon.

I ruled out chance because what are the odds that the whole universe came into existence by chance without something creating it.

Which god are you referring to?

Are you referring to god being made by someone or the stuff in the world being made by god? If the first, that boils down to the first cause argument. If the latter, your argument is pathetic because the world can be made in many ways, god is a potential candidate but you've ignored all other possibilities for no explained reason.

I'm referring to creator god I suppose. Yes there are many other proposed theories of how everything got here but they all rely on very precise and ludicrous series of events that have almost no probability of ever occurring. Why believe that everything just happened by chance when it would make much more sense to believe that everything was made?

I'm confused by what you're trying to get at when you mention "if we were logical" because logic and god are often said not to mix. So are you supporting god or not?

I don't believe in any god but I like debating any side of any argument. So for all purposes in this debate I am supporting god.

[Jess]

I believe in God because he has revealed to me who he is:) Just b open minded to him..i mean, The universe didnt just randomly form. "God was the beginning". By faith, God has shown me who he is..in just amazing and supernatural ways! Did u kno that archeaologists have found noah's ark!!?? I guess its on a mountain in Turkey. But how cool is that:)

really? the universe didn't just randomly form? Well I think it did. who created God, huh?

Well I hope I didn't offend you, you can believe in God, that's all right with me, but if God exists, I'm asking you, who created him?

[Heretic]

really? the universe didn't just randomly form? Well I think it did. who created God, huh?

Well I hope I didn't offend you, you can believe in God, that's all right with me, but if God exists, I'm asking you, who created him?

You don't believe in god but you would believe in something else that created a god? What the fuck. Get a grip.

[Apparitions]

You don't believe in god but you would believe in something else that created a god? What the fuck. Get a grip.
Where exactly did Jess say that? Jumping to conclusions now, are you?

[Ryhanna]

That's the entire problem, you see. There aren't any facts. At all.

Exactly. Which is why anyone who believes in God, the Bible... whatever, has their own personal reasons for doing so.

[Bryan B]

I believe in God because he has revealed to me who he is:) Just b open minded to him..i mean, The universe didnt just randomly form. "God was the beginning". By faith, God has shown me who he is..in just amazing and supernatural ways! Did u kno that archeaologists have found noah's ark!!?? I guess its on a mountain in Turkey. But how cool is that:)

http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?p=930600#post930600

They found some old wood on a mountain. People that want to see the ark see the ark. People that don't have an opinion either way see some wood. And I'd love to hear some proof of this god you speak of. Based on your blind faith in something completely illogical I don't have a reason to believe your testimony.

I totally agree with you

[billium183]

like som1 else sed..why r we here...wut wud be the point of existance..something had to start the universe...what is the point of existance...? the purpose of out presence? im not saying i dont beleive in evolution and science..but theres no way everything in this world/universe happened out of chance

[Perseus]

but theres no way everything in this world/universe happened out of chance

Why not?

[INFERNO]

I believe in God because he has revealed to me who he is:) Just b open minded to him..i mean, The universe didnt just randomly form. "God was the beginning". By faith, God has shown me who he is..in just amazing and supernatural ways! Did u kno that archeaologists have found noah's ark!!?? I guess its on a mountain in Turkey. But how cool is that:)

What's cool is that they actually did not find it. If you read their findings, they found pieces of old wood and some very primitive doors and possibly shelving. There was no big intact wooden boat sitting around. The people that went on the trip were also Evangelist Christians, none or very few were actually archeologists. They concluded that because there's pieces of old wood on a big mountain where it was prophesized Noah's Arc would be somewhere around, they claimed it was Noah's Arc. They automatically excluded the obvious possibility of another civilization having been there because it wouldn't seem very flashy and wouldn't agree with them, so they ruled it out. They also ruled out all possibilities of the wood having been from somewhere else and the scraps got there by storm or other means because, yet again, it wouldn't agree with their biased agenda.

So Noah's Arc has not been found. What was found was scraps of very old wood.

I ruled out chance because what are the odds that the whole universe came into existence by chance without something creating it.

There was a process that did create it or led up to its creation. That much is agreed upon. The debate is whether a higher being was the one that did it or not. Your question is essentially, what are the chances it didn't magically appear out of nowhere by no process? Makes no sense for something to exist without something/someone making it.


I'm referring to creator god I suppose. Yes there are many other proposed theories of how everything got here but they all rely on very precise and ludicrous series of events that have almost no probability of ever occurring. Why believe that everything just happened by chance when it would make much more sense to believe that everything was made?

You have made one very big assumption: that the series that occurred in no way were dependent or interdependent on one another. If none were in any way related to each other, then I agree, the chance is next to none but if there events were related (i.e. dependent or interdependent), then the chances are much higher because you would only need a few starting processes.

It's like dominoes. If the dominoes are stacked away from each other, if one falls, it won't knock over the rest (or very slim chance). But if some or all are stacked near each other, knocking down one domino will knock down many more.


I don't believe in any god but I like debating any side of any argument. So for all purposes in this debate I am supporting god.

Given your stance, it's only intuitive to ask, what characteristics do you assign to the god (i.e. in terms of power, looks, relation to other higher beings, etc...)? Helps to know exactly what we are discussing.

like som1 else sed..why r we here...wut wud be the point of existance..something had to start the universe...what is the point of existance...? the purpose of out presence? im not saying i dont beleive in evolution and science..but theres no way everything in this world/universe happened out of chance

Agreed, something had to start the universe. But why do you believe in a specific higher being when many others are also possible? What makes that one that you believe different than the rest that makes you believe it is responsible for the creation of the universe?

Why is it not possible for everything to have happened out of chance? You can argue perhaps it's not likely but you said it's impossible, no chance at all. That is a statement of fact, what is the argument supporting that fact?

[Continuum]

Why is it not possible for everything to have happened out of chance? You can argue perhaps it's not likely but you said it's impossible, no chance at all.


Because the odds are just too great to happen. One in a million, no a billion chances of creating us, but time existed for quite a while now, so maybe it did out of fat chance. The easiest theory I could think of is God planning everything, like DNA on an embryo.

[Perseus]

Because the odds are just too great to happen. One in a million, no a billion chances of creating us, but time existed for quite a while now, so maybe it did out of fat chance. The easiest theory I could think of is God planning everything, like DNA on an embryo.

Just because there's a small chance of something happening, it doesn't mean it won't ever happen. Why do people believe just because there's a small chance it wont' happen?

[Death]

like som1 else sed..why r we here...wut wud be the point of existance..something had to start the universe...what is the point of existance...? the purpose of out presence? im not saying i dont beleive in evolution and science..but theres no way everything in this world/universe happened out of chance

First off, it helps people to understand you if you type coherantly throughout.

Now, why is it that you've basically said that the universe needs a creator but the creator does not? You know, I'm getting pretty sick of people repetitively doing that. Also, why is it that people like you feel the need to lie about what the scientists claim by saying that everything happened by chance? Because that's bullshit and you damn well know it. So please do a bit more research in the future.

[Sage]

Because the odds are just too great to happen. One in a million, no a billion chances of creating us,

I'm curious where you've got that number from and how you're calculating this probability.

[Magus]

What is the age of the Universe?

13.75 ±0.17 billion ~Wiki

What is the age of Universe in Bible?

6 Days?

What is involved, General relativity?

600 000 000 000 divided by 365 = 1.64383562 × 10^9

You decide the rest.

[INFERNO]

Because the odds are just too great to happen. One in a million, no a billion chances of creating us, but time existed for quite a while now, so maybe it did out of fat chance. The easiest theory I could think of is God planning everything, like DNA on an embryo.

Where is this million or billion chance coming from? What is it even referring to? Regardless of how big or small the probability is, there is always a chance for it to occur. To give a practical analogy, the probability of Proteus Syndrome is estimated at less than 1 in 1,000,000, with a tiny chance of people living long. Chances are my children won't get it, your children won't get it, hell, probably nobody in Toronto would get it. But that does not mean it is impossible to get.

You chose Occam's Razor, which is fair enough but how do you know the god you believe in did it? The Christian god is supernatural, so once you begin opening the door to supernatural stuff, you need to show how only the God you're referring to did what you theorize it did. There needs to be some basis for the theory otherwise there's no grounds for it to explain the topic.

Also, DNA does not go on an embryo but this is just me being picky.

[Continuum]

I'm curious where you've got that number from and how you're calculating this probability.

I didn't. I used billion to denote a large improbable quantity :P

[Rutherford The Brave]

I didn't. I used billion to denote a large improbable quantity :P

He asked where you got it.

[Continuum]

He asked where you got it.

Out of random thought. there :)

[Rutherford The Brave]

Out of random thought. there :)

So then the statistic is a guess. It holds no valid point.

[Death]

Agreed. Gaul, if you don't know what you're talking about, why do you say it?

[Richi07]

I have a theory: God and energy are the same thing. Just think about it.

[Rutherford The Brave]

I have a theory: God and energy are the same thing. Just think about it.

If everyone believed that, then we wouldn't be having this damn arguement. It's to bad, because we'd solve this stupid arguement with that.

[INFERNO]

Out of random thought. there :)

Then everything you've said based on that apparent statistic is rubbish because you cant support it.

I have a theory: God and energy are the same thing.

Why are they the same? How do you rationalize around the laws of thermodynamics?

[Death]

I have a theory: God and energy are the same thing. Just think about it.

Then why do people keep personifying God when they should be talking about energy which isn't a being?

[Insanity Fair]

For those open minded towards the big bang theory. I have an interesting little discussion I had with my friends mother. If you take the big bang theory and analyze what it says, it sounds like a reverse black hole effect.

Imagine if it was. Instead of everything being sucked in. Everything was spat out. Which means it came from somewhere right? What if there was a universe before this one that collapsed inside of itself? This one might eventually collapse inside of itself at any time as well. That could mean that there is an infinite amount of universes. There is no "beginning of time" as time is just a concept. There just is.

I don't know, if I look into it more it's probably utter crap. It was just an interesting theory we had.

[Richi07]

Imagine if it was. Instead of everything being sucked in. Everything was spat out. Which means it came from somewhere right? What if there was a universe before this one that collapsed inside of itself? This one might eventually collapse inside of itself at any time as well. That could mean that there is an infinite amount of universe's. There is no "beginning of time" as time is just a concept. There just is.

Well, new theories say that the universe and space-time were created "at the same time" so, it isn't logical to talk about space-time without an universe as it isn't logical to talk about an universe without space-time. And other theoriessay that parallel universes are like clothes hanging on the wind: they bend and sometimes touch each other, generating a big bang where they touch. So, maybe, the big bang is a everyday thing and not a totally uncommon event as people think.

Then why do people keep personifying God when they should be talking about energy which isn't a being?

Who said Energy isn't a being? And who said God is? I believe that the Bible is mostly metaphorical and we must interpret many things. Maybe God isn't really a being but they write about Him that way so we understand it better.

If everyone believed that, then we wouldn't be having this damn arguement. It's to bad, because we'd solve this stupid arguement with that.

I'm not asking you to believe in that, I'm just saying it's the way I think.

Why are they the same? How do you rationalize around the laws of thermodynamics?

For more detailed info on my theory, see the forum thread "God=Energy".

[Death]

Imagine if it was. Instead of everything being sucked in. Everything was spat out. Which means it came from somewhere right? What if there was a universe before this one that collapsed inside of itself?

That wouldn't surprise me.

This one might eventually collapse inside of itself at any time as well. That could mean that there is an infinite amount of universe's.

Don't mean to be picky, but just out of curiocity, why did you spell a plural but non-possesive word ("universes") with an apostrophe?

There is no "beginning of time" as time is just a concept. There just is.

Funilly enough, you'll get some scientists who disagree with you. But then again, they tend to be the ones who believe in the multiverse and the 1969 moon landing hoax conspiracy, so I wouldn't listen to them.

Who said Energy isn't a being?

I am right now.

And who said God is?

The Bible (on which Christianity is based) and the vast majority of Christians I know.

I believe that the Bible is mostly metaphorical and we must interpret many things.

I actually agree with you, so you could actually argue that God isn't a being, but obviously not whilst using the Bible though.

[solid-snake]

i belive god egsists. i just beleive god dosnt give a crap about us. with all the types of god and what everybody beleives why cant i say that god is only keeping us in line when we get out of hand. maby he dosnt care about churches and sacrifice and whitch god we belive in, maby in gods eye religion as a whole is nothing but a buch of people who cant think for themselves so they need a higher voice for their lives. i dont go to church and im glad i dont because from what i believe it dosnt matter. iv pleaded god for help in my life and never got it and frankly iv fliped off god a couple of times when my life whent down hill and my life hasnt changed a bit.
now to reiterate. i believe in god but i believe god dosnt give a crap.

[Death]

So you believe in a horrible god then?

[Jess]

You don't believe in god but you would believe in something else that created a god? What the fuck. Get a grip.

uh I didn't say I believed that something created a God....

[Mythical]

I believe in God for so many reasons to count, science is just a bunch of theories (forgive me for sounding like a neanderthal) But I go to Church just about every sunday, I'm sticking to God like glue and I wont ever denounce Him

[Sith Lord 13]

I believe in God for so many reasons to count, science is just a bunch of theories (forgive me for sounding like a neanderthal)

It's statements like that that make people think it's impossible to believe in God and science.

The funny part is that you're right, science is just a bunch of theories. The thing is, those theories are mostly right, and able to be amended when they're wrong. If Jesus descended from the sky tomorrow and proved that every ounce of Christianity was correct, science would be ready to adapt to it. Science has no problem with religion and non-fundamentalist, non-extremist religion has no problem with science.

[INFERNO]

I believe in God for so many reasons to count, science is just a bunch of theories (forgive me for sounding like a neanderthal) But I go to Church just about every sunday, I'm sticking to God like glue and I wont ever denounce Him

Science and religion are not mutually exclusive. They may provide alternative explanations for something but they are not mutually exclusive. People seem to believe they are mutually exclusive but when you sit down and relax, then think about what each entails, they're not mutually exclusive. Let me explain.

Science is impartial and if personified, would not care what religion you believe in because it doesn't matter. The scientific theories are still going to be there and the evidence for them will still be there. They do not require denouncing oneself from the Christian God.

Religion, namely Christianity, is not opposed to science either. Both can explain an event but they differ in some of the questions they ask. Both ask: "is _____ possible?" and "does _____ exist?". That is a yes-no question to keep things simple. They differ though when it comes to asking "why does _____ work" or "why is _____ possible?". Generally, religion answers this question with the vague overused statement of "because God allows it" and it may give a biblical story also. Fair enough, religion cant give us anything better, we'll take what we can get.

Science also does ask the "why" question but its main focus is not on that, it's on "how is ____ possible?" or "how does ____ work?". This is different from the "why" question because the "why" question addresses the reason for the topic's existence. The "how" question acknowledges that the topic exists for whatever reason(s), so it seeks to question what are the processes involved in the thing's functioning.

This is where it becomes apparent science and religion are not mutually exclusive because they focus on questioning and answering different questions for the same topic. Science uses scientific theories to answer the "how" question while religion uses politics, history and sociology all in the context of a children's story.

[Death]

I'm sticking to God like glue and I wont ever denounce Him

Even if you're looking at irrefutable evidence to say the opposite (not that this can currently happen, but it's just the concept)?

[Rutherford The Brave]

Here is where it's hard for me to find out exactly where I fit in when it comes to religion. I feel like if I'm a fanatic, that nothing in my life that happens is accomplished by myself, I'd think "Oh god blessed me with this". But if I'm like I spurn religion in all forms, I feel like I'm out of sync with my family and my culture. I personally more of a science guy, I want to be able to explain things using mostly science. However, sometimes it feels nice to chalk somethings up to my god's. I don't know exactly what the term is but I basically can sum up my beliefs now like this. My gods got evolution/the big bang started, but now they only watch. That way religion doesn't seem so idealistic to me. To each, his own I guess. I still have difficulties believing that there is something out there watching me.

[Dog Desab]

i havent read all the posts but i dont understand why you are starting a pointless argument on not just the christian god but all religion.. its your fault you dont believe in religion and people who believe in religion its their fault too... some people have a hard time accepting that they live because they just are with no explanation so they use religion as a way to feel complete but your trying to break their reasons for living and existing on this plane. so what if people believe in god and use him as a scapegoat, thats their problem not yours and you should respect that because god can exist in the minds of people not just in reality with the here and now, so he can always exist as long as people believe... im not one for religion either i believe in a higher power not religion so you need to back off the whole god exists issue and let people believe what they want to believe...

[Apparitions]

i havent read all the posts but i dont understand why you are starting a pointless argument on not just the christian god but all religion.. its your fault you dont believe in religion and people who believe in religion its their fault too... some people have a hard time accepting that they live because they just are with no explanation so they use religion as a way to feel complete but your trying to break their reasons for living and existing on this plane. so what if people believe in god and use him as a scapegoat, thats their problem not yours and you should respect that because god can exist in the minds of people not just in reality with the here and now, so he can always exist as long as people believe... im not one for religion either i believe in a higher power not religion so you need to back off the whole god exists issue and let people believe what they want to believe...
Well, it is a thread about God and religion so of course we are going to come on here and show the flaws in what people say they believe etc. Also, we have every right to do this, there is nothing stopping us and it is not insulting, it's just giving our opinion on people's beliefs. You say 'it's your fault' like it's a bad thing to dismiss religion and 'God' (whatever the fuck that is supposed to be to them) when it isn't. Oh, anyone else noticed how the Atheists/Agnostics arguments are much more readable, more thought out and generally try to use more logic and evidence than the arguments of religious people... Anyway, if people need some made up guy with a beard who sits on a cloud all day to justify their existence then maybe they should think again about this. Also, you say that God exists in their minds and not in reality. You do know that normally this would be considered as a delusion, right? I don't think that that is something a mentally sound person would have. Normally for delusions like these you would get some kind of help. Anyway, creating this idea of a higher being called 'God' is a lazy way of thinking about these kind of things, seeing as there is ABSOLUTELY no proof of any kind of God ever existing. You say you believe in a 'higher power and not religion'. You do know that they are pretty much the same things, don't you? It's a religion, no matter how small it is. Why should we 'back off the whole god exists issue'? Why state your beliefs if you don't want them disputed? That's just a fail. You say we should let people believe what they want. Why? Why should we allow people to be deluded in this way?

I look forward to your (or someone else's) response.

[Dog Desab]

a higher power and religion are not the same to me... i dont put my ideals into religion... i dont like religion telling me whats good and whats bad!!!! i just think its pointless to argue back and forth on something like religion if people want to be delusioned then let them. Because they are too stupid to realize that god doesn't exist. I believe it was a random force that created the universe. You cant force people to change their minds no matter how much evidence is put in their face. People only see the perception of their reality. I can state my beliefs and have them disputed over but what would i care, im an individual and no one can change that. And I say its your fault if you believe in god and its your fault if you dont believe in god bcuz thats what someone wants to believe. I like your argument though im just saying if your an individual than you can choose whatever you want to believe.

[Death]

a higher power and religion are not the same to me...

You are correct. A higher power is a supernatural being like a god. A religion is a cult which worships said higher power.

i dont put my ideals into religion... i dont like religion telling me whats good and whats bad!!!!

I agree. They should mind their own damn business. Besides, a lot of it is bullshit anyway, like using contraception, being homosexual, or not believing is wrong.

i just think its pointless to argue back and forth on something like religion if people want to be delusioned then let them.

In real life, then yes. But this is a debate.

Because they are too stupid to realize that god doesn't exist. I believe it was a random force that created the universe.

A random force? Like what?

You cant force people to change their minds no matter how much evidence is put in their face. People only see the perception of their reality.

You're mostly correct. However, you can't really prove that God does not exist, just like you can't prove that there are invisible fairies and girls' dolls don't jump up and move when you're not looking. As irrational as they all are, you still cannot prove them wrong.

And I say its your fault if you believe in god and its your fault if you dont believe in god bcuz thats what someone wants to believe.

I wouldn't exactly say that it's your fault that you believe in something. That implies that both believing and not believing is a bad thing.

[Sage]

(forgive me for sounding like a neanderthal)

I'm not going to forgive you, nor anyone for that, for the rest of my days. In our world, there is no excuse.

No excuse.

[Magus]

A random force? Like what?



http://www.newalexandria.org/works/vortex/Vortex-isometric.jpg

[Jess]

ha has anyone read the book One Heartbeat Away by Mark Cahill? He talks about how God exists and evolution couldn't be real

I am reading the book only to laugh at it. not that I will ever believe in it

The giraffe is another amazing creature that defies the theory of evolution. Do you really think there's any way the giraffe could have gradually evolved and developed its special features randomly over time, as evolution demands?

Remember, if there is even one creature that could not have evolved, then there must be a Creator

Ha! yeah sure

[Dog Desab]

A random force, like what?

sometimes me and my gf think it was other top notch wizard bunnies that flicked their wands and POOF the universe or a blackhole imploded (its already imploding so now its exploded). or the universe always was and always will be or we are just gods dream which would explain alot and then he wakes up and POOF we all die

[Jess]

the book I'm reading is starting to make me think...

Evolution from one species to another is one of the biggest lies ever perpetrated on mankind. As Adolf Hitler said, "The bigger the lie, the more people will believe in it."

really? a lie?

going on topic

If you choose not to believe in a God who created you, but instead think you're nothing but an accidental result of random chance processes, then you believe the following

*There is no qualitative difference between humans and animals.
*There ultimately is no meaning in life
*There is no life after death
*There is no purpose to human history

pppplllease

[Mariiniitahh]

Danq ive felt dahh same way before, ive even qotten into biq fiqhtsz wit mah mom cahsz of eht!! buht lykk mah mom sed... qod makesz uhsz feel lyk wer noht alone nd eht helpsz uhsz spiritually (ehf daht makesz any sense). hehe buht dnt stresz about eht one day al of uhsz will see wahtsz true nd wahtsz noht. =)

[Apparitions]

Danq ive felt dahh same way before, ive even qotten into biq fiqhtsz wit mah mom cahsz of eht!! buht lykk mah mom sed... qod makesz uhsz feel lyk wer noht alone nd eht helpsz uhsz spiritually (ehf daht makesz any sense). hehe buht dnt stresz about eht one day al of uhsz will see wahtsz true nd wahtsz noht. =)
Can someone please translate this into English?

[Mariiniitahh]

Dang I've felt the same way before, I've even gotten into big fights with my mom cause of it!! But like my mom said... god makes us feel like we're not alone and it helps us spiritually (if that makes any sense). hehe but don't stress about it, one day all of us will se what's true and what's not. =)


-all better hatelovelive?

[Dog Desab]

but what if we just die and its over just blank or fade into nothing no one can prove that there is a afterlife?

[Apparitions]

Dang I've felt the same way before, I've even gotten into big fights with my mom cause of it!! But like my mom said... god makes us feel like we're not alone and it helps us spiritually (if that makes any sense). hehe but don't stress about it, one day all of us will se what's true and what's not. =)


-all better hatelovelive?
Yes, thank you ;)

[Jess]

a higher power and religion are not the same to me... i dont put my ideals into religion... i dont like religion telling me whats good and whats bad!!!! i just think its pointless to argue back and forth on something like religion if people want to be delusioned then let them. Because they are too stupid to realize that god doesn't exist. I believe it was a random force that created the universe. You cant force people to change their minds no matter how much evidence is put in their face. People only see the perception of their reality. I can state my beliefs and have them disputed over but what would i care, im an individual and no one can change that. And I say its your fault if you believe in god and its your fault if you dont believe in god bcuz thats what someone wants to believe. I like your argument though im just saying if your an individual than you can choose whatever you want to believe.

I can agree with this, people can believe what they want to believe in but some people take it too far....