Think twice before buying real fur *Warning*

[Hatsune Miku]

*Contains serious acts of animal cruelty*

eeT9LyN-BLI

This is what they do to animals in order to get their fur.
Whenever someone buys a piece of clothing with real fur, this is what that animal had to go through in order for you to be wearing that fur

Think twice before buying

[deadpie]

This is why I think we should all be naked more often in public.

[Tiberius]

Don't you realize that in civilized countries, this shit doesn't go on? The animals are dead before they get skinned in the U.S and not just stunned with their limbs hacked off like in that Chinese shit-hole. We have regulations for all of that stuff, whereas those barbarians don't.

+1 for communism[/sarcasm]

[HillBillyWilly]

Yeah. I hope you know that they make parchment out of animal skins too, but they get the skins already skinned as in they never see the animal.

[Hatsune Miku]

Don't you realize that in civilized countries, this shit doesn't go on? The animals are dead before they get skinned in the U.S and not just stunned with their limbs hacked off like in that Chinese shit-hole. We have regulations for all of that stuff, whereas those barbarians don't.

+1 for communism[/sarcasm]

Does it matter? Most of the clothing with fur is imported from all over the world.

[The Batman]

I'd rather go on and buy the fur just so that animal didn't die in vain.

[Tiberius]

Does it matter? Most of the clothing with fur is imported from all over the world.

Are you on some sort of drug? We get a large amount of our furs from places like Canada, Russia and our very own country.

[Hatsune Miku]

Are you on some sort of drug? We get a large amount of our furs from places like Canada, Russia and our very own country.

If tums counts as a drug, then yes.

[Φρανκομβριτ]

The world is a scary, cruel place. Get used to it :(

[Zephyr]

People disgust me.
They skin the poor animals alive,
And toss it aside while it's still breathing,
And it just lays there bleeding to death.
Such a waste of life.
Every time I see somebody wearing fur,
It genuinely disgusts me.

[songboy]

People disgust me.
They skin the poor animals alive,
And toss it aside while it's still breathing,
And it just lays there bleeding to death.
Such a waste of life.
Every time I see somebody wearing fur,
It genuinely disgusts me.

meto:(

[ShatteredWings]

I'd rather go on and buy the fur just so that animal didn't die in vain.

That creates a demand.

I can't watch that video right now [ate food this morning, would rather not get sick], but the only that i don't have a problem with is leather, since the meat is used too.

the fur that just leaves the rest of the anmial to waste really botheres me.

[Hatsune Miku]

Don't you realize that in civilized countries, this shit doesn't go on? The animals are dead before they get skinned in the U.S and not just stunned with their limbs hacked off like in that Chinese shit-hole. We have regulations for all of that stuff, whereas those barbarians don't.

+1 for communism[/sarcasm]

How does that matter? They still kill the animal. You're pretty much saying its okay to skin the animals and take their fur as long as they're dead first. It doesn't matter weather their skinned alive or dead, they are still going to end up dead and skinless. Humans are animals. Why don't we just go around killing humans and skin them? Animals are becoming endangered because they are being hunted for their fur. I bet in less than 10 years all the tigers will be gone. I have 3 cats. Some people actually skin cats, and dogs. Me being a cat lover, who hate to see somebody wearing cat fur. Rare? Yes, but possible

[Scarface]

I simply couldn't watch more then a minute of this shit. I don't like fur coats certainly seeing what it demands and condones. This is sick and demented. I have animals of my own and it makes me sad to see that people do this in such an inhumane way, it's torture and wrong on so many levels. V.V

[deadpie]

Who cares. Everyone's going to die one day or another. When I die I want someone to skin my body and wear it. I'd feel fucking honored.

[The Dark Lord]

animals are not, nor ever will be, on a par with humans, so if people want to buy or wear fur, let them its none of our business

[Icilim]

Not in the US. Fur companies in the US are under strict controls

[Hatsune Miku]

Who cares. Everyone's going to die one day or another. When I die I want someone to skin my body and wear it. I'd feel fucking honored.

Then they can wait till those animals die naturally.

[Sage]

Here's a better reason not to wear fur: It looks horrible.

[dead]

animals are not, nor ever will be, on a par with humans, so if people want to buy or wear fur, let them its none of our business

I can see your such a friendly, caring, and empathetic person.

[Whisper]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/130/342490964_f4839d0f11.jpg


Not to mention the dry cleanings outrageous

[The Batman]

Isn't Faux being used a lot more than the real stuff?

[ShatteredWings]

Isn't Faux being used a lot more than the real stuff?

probably. it's cheeper i'd assume.

[deadpie]

If it makes you feel any better, in an alternative universe the animals are skinning our flesh and wearing it instead.

[Quick_Sylver]

I managed to watch 45 seconds of the video before I had to stop and go be sick. That's just wrong, and it just increases my determination to be a vet. Help the animals. That's what I care about when it comes to the bigger picture. There's got to be some way to help the animals survive after that.. but I dunno. Im dreaming I suppose. But there's got to be a way..

[AgusCO]

Fur...it's just so nice,from the fashion point of view.Yes,the way to obtain those amazing fur coats(and else) is disguisting but, focusing exclusively on the final product and not the process. I must say I love it, and the way it looks.
I mean, look at Anna Wintour, Mary-Kate Olsen or Burberry collections, I just can't help myself but to love it.

[Sith Lord 13]

animals are not, nor ever will be, on a par with humans, so if people want to buy or wear fur, let them its none of our business

You're absolutely right on the first part. I for one would much rather be counted among almost any other species of mammal over humans. What other creature kills billions of it's own kind? Over philosophical differences?

[Tiberius]

How does that matter? They still kill the animal. You're pretty much saying its okay to skin the animals and take their fur as long as they're dead first. It doesn't matter whether they're skinned alive or dead, they are still going to end up dead and skinless. Humans are animals. Why don't we just go around killing humans and skin them? Animals are becoming endangered because they are being hunted for their fur. I bet in less than 10 years all the tigers will be gone. I have 3 cats. Some people actually skin cats, and dogs. Me being a cat lover, who hate to see somebody wearing cat fur. Rare? Yes, but possible
Are you really that ignorant? Animals don't really go endangered anymore because their fur is collected. We raise animals specifically for this purpose and not run after wild animals to skin them like we did many hundreds or thousands of years ago.

You also don't seem to understand that if animals were on the same level as us, we wouldn't be able to hold them in captivity and domesticate them. They're not equal to humans in any way.

BTW, I'm willing to put a couple thousand dollars on Tigers not going exticnt in less than 10 years, if you'd like a real bet. We can also exchange pay-pals if you want.

"2 Million Dogs and Cats:
Some fur trims and clothes labeled as fake or as from another animal are actually made from dog and cat fur exported by China, where the more than 2 million dogs and cats per year killed for fur suffer unspeakable cruelties, including sometimes the documented horror of being skinned alive." You're kitties might be taken by the Chinese :)

"6 to 8 Million Dogs and Cats:
Every year, 6 to 8 million dogs and cats enter shelters, and 3 to 4 million shelter dogs and cats are killed." And would you rather the ones killed go to a productive use, or just be incinerated?

http://animals.change.org/blog/view/animal_use_and_abuse_statistics_the_shocking_numbers

And I want to see some of your impressive facts.

[Sith Lord 13]

You also don't seem to understand that if animals were on the same level as us, we wouldn't be able to hold them in captivity and domesticate them. They're not equal to humans in any way.


So blacks aren't on the same level as whites? After all, we held them in captivity and domesticated them to do manual labor.

[Tiberius]

So blacks aren't on the same level as whites? After all, we held them in captivity and domesticated them to do manual labor.

You seem to forget that there was a time when whites also enslaved other whites, but we'll just ignore that fact...

And btw, they weren't domesticated. You are making it sound like black people are wild animals and not humans.

[Sith Lord 13]

You seem to forget that there was a time when whites also enslaved other whites, but we'll just ignore that fact...

And btw, they weren't domesticated. You are making it sound like black people are wild animals and not humans.

I'm saying humans are animals.

[Tiberius]

I'm saying humans are animals.

But we're not animals in the context that a cat or a bear is an animal, and that's what people aren't grasping.

[Sith Lord 13]

But we're not animals in the context that a cat or a bear is an animal, and that's what people aren't grasping.

What context is that?

[Tiberius]

Reality.

[Sith Lord 13]

Reality.

Really?

LINNAEAN CLASSIFICATION OF HUMANS


Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Subphylum: Vertebrata
Class: Mammalia
Subclass: Theria
Infraclass: Eutheria
Order: Primates
Suborder: Anthropoidea
Superfamily: Hominoidea
Family: Hominidae
Genus: Homo
Species: sapiens

[The Batman]

So what does that have to do with fur coats?

[Sith Lord 13]

So what does that have to do with fur coats?

The right to have a fur coat is based on the belief that humans are there for our use and abuse. If we're all just animals, that belief disappears.

[The Batman]

The right to have a fur coat is based on the belief that humans are there for our use and abuse. If we're all just animals, that belief disappears.

Not really since we will still think of ourselves as superior to them.

[Sith Lord 13]

Not really since we will still think of ourselves as superior to them.

And my point is to reverse that belief. It's not supported by reality.

[The Batman]

And my point is to reverse that belief. It's not supported by reality.

It is supported by reality. Are other species debating over whether or not it's wrong to kill an animal for fashion? I think not.

[dead]

It is supported by reality. Are other species debating over whether or not it's wrong to kill an animal for fashion? I think not.

Are any other species killing animals for fashion?

[Sith Lord 13]

Are any other species killing animals for fashion?

Thank you.

[The Dark Lord]

Animals attack, eat and kill other animals, so anyone who attempts to take the moral high ground claiming animals are helpless is hypocritical and irrational. Humans killing animals is part of evolution. Whats the difference between killing animals for fur and killing them for meat?

[dead]

Animals attack, eat and kill other animals, so anyone who attempts to take the moral high ground claiming animals are helpless is hypocritical and irrational. Humans killing animals is part of evolution. Whats the difference between killing animals for fur and killing them for meat?

One is for survival and the other is for fashion.

[The Dark Lord]

One is for survival and the other is for fashion.

Though both give the same outcome and meat is not the only available food so its not essential for survival

[dead]

Though both give the same outcome and meat is not the only available food so its not essential for survival

Its called Carnivores, Omnivores, and Herbivores.

[Hatsune Miku]

I think this should be moved to ROTW, Just sayin'

Proceed

[deadpie]

I think animal fur is a very sexy fashion statement. I want to wear flesh of a horse that was brutally murdered. Caress it and lick the fur.

Now that you guys have reminded me about the brutality of killing animals for fur, I want to wear some.

http://gizmodo.com/assets/images/gallery/4/2009/02/medium_3292571977_91574d9cf7_o.png

Inb4 rage.

[The Dark Lord]

I wear fur and will continue to wear it regardless of stupid and pointless individuals telling me that I am morally flawed

[dead]

I wear fur and will continue to wear it regardless of stupid and pointless individuals telling me that I am morally flawed

I dont care what you do, for all I care you can go fuck yourself, I mean its your choice not mine.

[Kaius]

Guys, Cool it. I don't want to be handing out infractions.

Seeing as this has turned into a bit of a debate :arrow2: ROTW

[The Batman]

The way you guys are trying to debate against fur is by scare tactics and saying that we're equal with animals. Both of those won't work because we're not equal and as soon as people find a more humane way of getting fur(like they have) the scare tactic is gone.

[Jess]

I hate animal fur coats :S

[1_21Guns]

and there you have the exact reason i refuse to wear fur. yeah not all fur is got like that, but i dont care. that's enough to put me off :|

[Sith Lord 13]

The way you guys are trying to debate against fur is by scare tactics and saying that we're equal with animals. Both of those won't work because we're not equal and as soon as people find a more humane way of getting fur(like they have) the scare tactic is gone.

Yet I've still not gotten any justification as to how humans are better than animals.

[The Dark Lord]

Yet I've still not gotten any justification as to how humans are better than animals.

We are civilised. Humans are better than animals, we have evolved further and are better suited to life than animals, which are unimportant objects. I care more about my door handle than I do about any animal

[dead]

We are civilised. Humans are better than animals, we have evolved further and are better suited to life than animals, which are unimportant objects. I care more about my door handle than I do about any animal

All that shows is that your a cold hearted bastard of filth.

[The Dark Lord]

All that shows is that your a cold hearted bastard of filth.

No that shows that I have a correct perseptive on life and humanity and recognise that my species are superior to all others, you on the other hand are a hypocrite

[The Batman]

Yet I've still not gotten any justification as to how humans are better than animals.

Like most higher primates, humans are social by nature. However, humans are uniquely adept at utilizing systems of communication for self-expression, the exchange of ideas, and organization. Humans create complex social structures composed of many cooperating and competing groups, from families to nations. Social interactions between humans have established an extremely wide variety of values, social norms, and rituals, which together form the basis of human society.
Humans are noted for their desire to understand and influence their environment, seeking to explain and manipulate natural phenomena through science, philosophy, mythology and religion. This natural curiosity has led to the development of advanced tools and skills, which are passed down culturally; humans are the only species known to build fires, cook their food, clothe themselves, and use numerous other technologies.
Yes we're better.

[dead]

No that shows that I have a correct perseptive on life and humanity and recognise that my species are superior to all others, you on the other hand are a hypocrite

How am I a hypocrite? A species that kills its own species only for hate makes it not superior.

[The Dark Lord]

How am I a hypocrite? A species that kills its own species only for hate makes it not superior.

You condemn people for wearing fur but you still eat dairy products and meat. No human being can successfully argue that we are inferior, our (or at least my) mind are more complex, we can talk and walk, and feel emotions. It our right to kill animals if you don't like go and live out in the wild.

[dead]

You condemn people for wearing fur but you still eat dairy products and meat. No human being can successfully argue that we are inferior, our (or at least my) mind are more complex, we can talk and walk, and feel emotions. It our right to kill animals if you don't like go and live out in the wild.

Animals feel emotions aswell, and I dont eat meat and drink dairy, so please dont assume.

[The Dark Lord]

Animals feel emotions aswell, and I dont eat meat and drink dairy, so please dont assume.

Sorry. My arguments still stand and if you genuiely believe in animals rights at the expense of human lives, then I pity you. It is our right to try drugs and products on animals. I'd rather 100 animals died than 1 human death

[Kaius]

Answer me this. We, as humans, what purpose do we have? What good do we do to the world? Nothing. We kill each other when we don't get our own way, we go to war with countries because we dislike their way of life, we reap what we wish from the environment, but when it turns sour we complain, yet do not stop. We are the inferior ones in my book. Animals do much more than we do. If we didn't have animals, i doubt we would have evolved this far, going on the fact animals were what humans relied on most at the beginning, however long ago that was. We don't need animal fur to survive. Meat and milk however serves a purpose to us. Some people need meat. Those with iron deficiencies, those with bone diseases need milk. It's not our right to take advantage of something that cannot fight back, which is why many people believe animal testing is wrong. Everyone has the right to their own opinions, this is just mine.

[1_21Guns]

Answer me this. We, as humans, what purpose do we have? What good do we do to the world? Nothing. We kill each other when we don't get our own way, we go to war with countries because we dislike their way of life, we reap what we wish from the environment, but when it turns sour we complain, yet do not stop. We are the inferior ones in my book. Animals do much more than we do. If we didn't have animals, i doubt we would have evolved this far, going on the fact animals were what humans relied on most at the beginning, however long ago that was. We don't need animal fur to survive. Meat and milk however serves a purpose to us. Some people need meat. Those with iron deficiencies, those with bone diseases. It's not our right to take advantage of something that cannot fight back, which is why many people believe animal testing is wrong. Everyone has the right to their own opinions, this is just mine.

agreed.

[dead]

Answer me this. We, as humans, what purpose do we have? What good do we do to the world? Nothing. We kill each other when we don't get our own way, we go to war with countries because we dislike their way of life, we reap what we wish from the environment, but when it turns sour we complain, yet do not stop. We are the inferior ones in my book. Animals do much more than we do. If we didn't have animals, i doubt we would have evolved this far, going on the fact animals were what humans relied on most at the beginning, however long ago that was. We don't need animal fur to survive. Meat and milk however serves a purpose to us. Some people need meat. Those with iron deficiencies, those with bone diseases need milk. It's not our right to take advantage of something that cannot fight back, which is why many people believe animal testing is wrong. Everyone has the right to their own opinions, this is just mine.

<3 love this

[Sith Lord 13]

Like most higher primates, humans are social by nature. However, humans are uniquely adept at utilizing systems of communication for self-expression, the exchange of ideas, and organization. Humans create complex social structures composed of many cooperating and competing groups, from families to nations. Social interactions between humans have established an extremely wide variety of values, social norms, and rituals, which together form the basis of human society.
Humans are noted for their desire to understand and influence their environment, seeking to explain and manipulate natural phenomena through science, philosophy, mythology and religion. This natural curiosity has led to the development of advanced tools and skills, which are passed down culturally; humans are the only species known to build fires, cook their food, clothe themselves, and use numerous other technologies.

Yes we're better.

How? Nothing you say equals better. Different yes, but not better.

[The Batman]

How? Nothing you say equals better. Different yes, but not better.

That's a matter of opinion.

[Whisper]

That's a matter of opinion.
So was your statement, hence the debate.

[The Batman]

So was your statement, hence the debate.

That's actually what I meant I just wasn't clear.

[Sith Lord 13]

That's a matter of opinion.

Agreed. I just believe you need more than an opinion if you're going to start killing.

[The Batman]

Agreed. I just believe you need more than an opinion if you're going to start killing.

That's where money comes in...but tbh I would much rather have faux.

[Sith Lord 13]

That's where money comes in...but tbh I would much rather have faux.

Are you agreeing or explaining? I understand that that is why people do it. I just don't agree with it.

[The Batman]

Are you agreeing or explaining? I understand that that is why people do it. I just don't agree with it.

I'm explaining it.

[INFERNO]

I wear a pure leather jacket, my mother has at least 2 fut coats and my father and I have animal fur hats and gloves. Despite this, I do feel sympathetic when animals suffer even when it's less than this barbaric act. Perhaps I'll get hated for this but in one of my third-year biology courses in university we did labs involving adult cats, dogfish sharks, mudpuppy salamanders, lamb, etc... however all were dead (a few were or recently were pregnant). We had to start from scratch, such as skinning them to removing the rib plate, etc... . Things like this I find more humane because the animal is dead and killed in a humane way, and to me, regardless of the taxonomy and classification of the animal, skinning it alive is just torture even if it's just a small part of the animal and not the whole animal.

I had my way, every single one who do this stuff would be arrested and may serve with community working or simply imprisonment and some form of therapy. I may even like to have some or all put on probation so they cannot own any non-human animal, have it at their permanent or temporary place where they are residing, train one or interact with one, or do any crime to any that would result in incarceration. Maybe this for a repeat offender only, I'd have to think about it as well as the sentencing I'd like although their actions and history would matter, so I may be willing for certain forensic psychiatric assessments for determining the therapy even if not NCRMD.

Any fur factories would have to have the animals dead before arrival preferably above a certain age and have restrictions as to which animals are allowed so as to not have someone's pet put in the factory, and having some quick, direct relation with meat factories so the corpse isn't tossed on the ground, rusting fence or wherever. Just because we have access to meat doesn't mean we should toss other meat wherever we please as though it's clothing being tossed around and stomped on.

Now that I'm done preaching my views, humans and non-humans are not on the same playing field. Not legally, not in society, not anywhere. One can argue we'd be screwed without them but if you demolish the ecosystem and organism interactions so much, whatever is left will be screwed regardless. Not unique for humans but true nonetheless.

We don't need animal fur for survival in many urbanized cities but then again, we don't need cars, computers, television, and so forth.

For those of you who are very angry at the disparity between humans and non-humans, you may be relieved to know it's being addressed legally for dolphins only (so far at least). If the law goes through, dolphins will be persons (person need not be human nor one single organism), killing dolphins would be murder, having in shows would be illegal as it'd be like child exploitation, and so forth with the excemption of certain things not feasible like paying taxes.

[belfordrocks]

____

[Sith Lord 13]

Animals should be treated with compassion and kindness, but to suggest they're equal with humans is insane. With rights come responsibilities. Animals don't have responsibilities in modern society- likewise, to give them any kind of entitlement is flawed.

No responsibilities? Really? So a dog can bite whoever they want and get away with it?

[The Dark Lord]

No responsibilities? Really? So a dog can bite whoever they want and get away with it?

In a lot of cases it does, it gets put down peacefully, not quite the same as life imprisonment. Animals have no rights and if they kill or seriously harm a human, then they should received a punishment that will cause them hurt and pain

[INFERNO]

No responsibilities? Really? So a dog can bite whoever they want and get away with it?

In society, dogs cannot adhere to any human-made responsibilities set forth onto them, such as not biting others because they do not understand this responsibility. We as humans can try to teach dogs not to bite humans and this may be the responsibility of the owner(s) of the dog but the dog itself cannot formally be taught or told biting is wrong. So your example is not supporting your view.

[dead]

In a lot of cases it does, it gets put down peacefully, not quite the same as life imprisonment. Animals have no rights and if they kill or seriously harm a human, then they should received a punishment that will cause them hurt and pain

Well if a person is legally insane at the time of committing a crime they do not receive the same punishment as if they were not.

[The Batman]

Well if a person is legally insane at the time of committing a crime they do not receive the same punishment as if they were not.

Because they couldn't control their actions and therefore wasn't responsible and also not in the right state of mind for a better judgement

[The Dark Lord]

Well if a person is legally insane at the time of committing a crime they do not receive the same punishment as if they were not.

Yes but you can't justify an animal killing its superior by declearing it legally insane. Animals who kill defenceless babies should receive a cruel and painful punishment

[The Batman]

Yes but you can't justify an animal killing its superior by declearing it legally insane. Animals who kill defenceless babies should receive a cruel and painful punishment

Animals don't see the babies as defenseless. You're trying to make it sound like they are purposefully violent.

[The Dark Lord]

Animals don't see the babies as defenseless. You're trying to make it sound like they are purposefully violent.

I don't care. Animals are not, never have been and never will be equal to humans. If an animal kills an innocent child then they should be punished, regardless. If a human murdered someone, then they are punished regardless of motive. Why should animals be any different?

[The Batman]

I don't care. Animals are not, never have been and never will be equal to humans. If an animal kills an innocent child then they should be punished, regardless. If a human murdered someone, then they are punished regardless of motive. Why should animals be any different?

One knows better and one doesn't. Also if you will check I've been one of the people saying animals aren't equal to humans and if you're going to try and debate that you shouldn't try and say that they should be punished as one.

[The Dark Lord]

One knows better and one doesn't. Also if you will check I've been one of the people saying animals aren't equal to humans and if you're going to try and debate that you shouldn't try and say that they should be punished as one.

Do you seriously value the rights of an animal over the life of a human?

[The Batman]

Do you seriously value the rights of an animal over the life of a human?
I haven't said or implied that...you're reading way too much into it.

[Sith Lord 13]

In a lot of cases it does, it gets put down peacefully, not quite the same as life imprisonment. Animals have no rights and if they kill or seriously harm a human, then they should received a punishment that will cause them hurt and pain

Not the same as life imprisonment, no. Same as the death penalty however.

In society, dogs cannot adhere to any human-made responsibilities set forth onto them, such as not biting others because they do not understand this responsibility. We as humans can try to teach dogs not to bite humans and this may be the responsibility of the owner(s) of the dog but the dog itself cannot formally be taught or told biting is wrong. So your example is not supporting your view.

That's not true. The fact that we have failed to find an adequate way to communicate with dogs does not mean they lack the same level of reasoning we do. Basically all your arguments say that were an alien species to come and visit Earth, if they don't bother to find a way to communicate with us, they would be wholly justified in using us for experimentation, since we would be as far below them as dogs and cats are below us.


I don't care. Animals are not, never have been and never will be equal to humans. If an animal kills an innocent child then they should be punished, regardless. If a human murdered someone, then they are punished regardless of motive. Why should animals be any different?

Completely and utterly not true. Ever hear of justifiable homicide? Or the difference between Murder 1, Murder 2, Manslaughter, etc.?

[INFERNO]

That's not true. The fact that we have failed to find an adequate way to communicate with dogs does not mean they lack the same level of reasoning we do. Basically all your arguments say that were an alien species to come and visit Earth, if they don't bother to find a way to communicate with us, they would be wholly justified in using us for experimentation, since we would be as far below them as dogs and cats are below us.


You're extrapolating what I said to something I did not say. I did say we cannot effectively communicate with dogs but through tests such as fMRIs, we can reason they are not as capable of reasoning as we are. They are intelligent animals I won't deny that but looking just at their neuroanatomy and neurophysiology, it suggests they're not capable of reasoning (i.e. logically or morally) as we are. That part is true of what I said but I never said it was an excuse for us to use them in experiments, that is you taking this to your own agenda.

I believe they are capable of reasoning emotionally and through body language maybe as well as we can but for logical and objective reasoning, I don't believe so. We can train them to do some amazing things but that is not reasoning, that is doing something they always were capable of just we have given them a command to do so.

[Sith Lord 13]

You're extrapolating what I said to something I did not say. I did say we cannot effectively communicate with dogs but through tests such as fMRIs, we can reason they are not as capable of reasoning as we are. They are intelligent animals I won't deny that but looking just at their neuroanatomy and neurophysiology, it suggests they're not capable of reasoning (i.e. logically or morally) as we are. That part is true of what I said but I never said it was an excuse for us to use them in experiments, that is you taking this to your own agenda.

I believe they are capable of reasoning emotionally and through body language maybe as well as we can but for logical and objective reasoning, I don't believe so. We can train them to do some amazing things but that is not reasoning, that is doing something they always were capable of just we have given them a command to do so.

You're right, I read too much into your argument. I apologize.

I am not yet ready to agree on the neuroanatomy and neurophysiology points for two reasons. 1) Would different species require the same structures to do the same things? I believe it is possible that the failing is on our part, as we are not yet adequately able to communicate with animals.

2) Does free will come from the brain and its structures? I don't believe so, because if it does that means there is no free will. We're just highly complicated chemical reactions and nothing more. So, going on the assumption free will exists, there is some unquantifiable force which allows free will. In that case, neuroanatomy and neurophysiology mean nothing in this context.

[INFERNO]

1) Would different species require the same structures to do the same things? I believe it is possible that the failing is on our part, as we are not yet adequately able to communicate with animals.

Not the exact same structures perhaps but roughly the same brain areas. You're right, we're not yet adequately able to communicate with animals however this is being researched on more and more, usually on monkeys and dolphins. Scientists have attempted to teach human language to these two animal groups and it was more successful on dolphins.


2) Does free will come from the brain and its structures? I don't believe so, because if it does that means there is no free will. We're just highly complicated chemical reactions and nothing more. So, going on the assumption free will exists, there is some unquantifiable force which allows free will. In that case, neuroanatomy and neurophysiology mean nothing in this context.

Scientifically, it would come from the brain as that is the organ governing us and our behaviours. However, there are other theories, such as the Jungian collective conscious. It seems like we both are toying with Descartes' Mind-Body problem, which is basically does the mind control the body (including brain), body control mind or both work together. The objective of this is to postulate how behaviours are controlled. Back in Descartes' time when the church had its strong influence, he chose mind controls body in order to explain how god influences us and when we die, we go to heaven, purgatory or wherever you believe in. The mind in this sense is not something that can be physically quantified nor is composed of atoms and free will in the sense you're taking it would be part of the mind. Descartes postulated that whichever the result, the mind acted through the brain's pineal gland to interact with the body.

[Sith Lord 13]

Not the exact same structures perhaps but roughly the same brain areas. You're right, we're not yet adequately able to communicate with animals however this is being researched on more and more, usually on monkeys and dolphins. Scientists have attempted to teach human language to these two animal groups and it was more successful on dolphins.

Ah, teach human language. What about the possibility of understanding other species' means of communication.


Scientifically, it would come from the brain as that is the organ governing us and our behaviours. However, there are other theories, such as the Jungian collective conscious. It seems like we both are toying with Descartes' Mind-Body problem, which is basically does the mind control the body (including brain), body control mind or both work together. The objective of this is to postulate how behaviours are controlled. Back in Descartes' time when the church had its strong influence, he chose mind controls body in order to explain how god influences us and when we die, we go to heaven, purgatory or wherever you believe in. The mind in this sense is not something that can be physically quantified nor is composed of atoms and free will in the sense you're taking it would be part of the mind. Descartes postulated that whichever the result, the mind acted through the brain's pineal gland to interact with the body.

Ah, a student of philosophy. I'm impressed. Which of these theories do you take?

[Whisper]

Not the exact same structures perhaps but roughly the same brain areas. You're right, we're not yet adequately able to communicate with animals however this is being researched on more and more, usually on monkeys and dolphins. Scientists have attempted to teach human language to these two animal groups and it was more successful on dolphins.

They usually use sign language which considering dolphins don't have hands is a complete oxymoron.
More recently they've attempted with an ipad. Yes, theres an app for that.

there are times when I wonder if we're really as bright as we'd like to believe
lol

[Dorsum Oppel]

You see kids, this is something called the circle of life. If you wanna live, shit has to die. The bottom line is, humans like comodities. You being on your computer right now complaining about fur is killing more animals than making a fur coat. The power plant which give you electricity was built on natural land and killed thousands, if not millions of organisms. Everytime you walk in some grass, you kill shit. You know that shirt you're wearing right now? Just that shirt accounts for about 10 animals lives. THe factory it was made in, the plowed out ground used to grow the materials for the shirt, the smog from the truck used to ship it. I would rather have my leather, and at least have something to account for for all of those animal lives. Everyday, just by living, you kill around a hundred plants and animals, and thousands of organisms.

If humans are equal to animals, then bacteria must be equal too. So you know, we might as well just let bacteria kill us, and abandon medicine so we don't kill the poor. Oh, and we don't want to step on bugs in the grass either. So let's just sit on a little platform elevated in the air beneath a tree and wait for fruit to drop into our mouths. Oh shit, I just killed something by breathing.

Bottom line: you live, they die. It's how things work.

[Sogeking]

Bottom line: you live, they die. It's how things work.

So very true

[notanorchestra]

There is a difference between natural selection, and murder (under an anti-speciest view). When you kill an animal on purpose, that is murder. When you accidentally step on a bug while you are walking, that is natural selection. The word "natural" in natural selection suggests that it is unavoidable. We can, however, avoid the taking of a life of an animal or the exploitation of one.

Humans do not NEED fur, leather, meat, or anything that we currently use from animals. Fur and leather are just are messed up seperation between social consciousness and visual attraction, and meat is just because we do not see that there are many healthy, tasty alternatives to the taking of a life.

[Dorsum Oppel]

The bottom line is that more animals die fromyou driving a car than eating a hamburger.

[kyle92]

Who cares. Everyone's going to die one day or another. When I die I want someone to skin my body and wear it. I'd feel fucking honored.

ok now that is just wrong thats so gross
i dont this we should have real fur unless its from sheep or any animal we can shave its hair off and it will grow back but you shouldnt kill an animal just for its fur that so wrong

[Dorsum Oppel]

ok now that is just wrong thats so gross
i dont this we should have real fur unless its from sheep or any animal we can shave its hair off and it will grow back but you shouldnt kill an animal just for its fur that so wrong

There is no such thing as wrong and right, merely advisable and unadvisable.

[notanorchestra]

The bottom line is that more animals die fromyou driving a car than eating a hamburger.

Buying meat for a hamburger is supporting a market, and it is a market that directly kills animals for product. Driving a car is not supporting a market, however it is unneccessary.
Anyways, I prefer walking where I need to go when I have the option.

And again, natural selection is where I'm coming from. I love the idea of that, but not the idea of unnecessary domination of another species because you like the taste or the way it looks.
If something is unnavoidable, I don't care if it kills life-- it is unnavoidable either way. But when people destroy life for no reason, that's just stupid.

[Dorsum Oppel]

Okay then, let's take a look at things that we can avoid.

Target, Hottopic, and multiple other large corporations make use of imported slave labor from 3rd world countries. These slaves are often raped and worked to death. S.C. johnson and just about every medicine in existence is heavily tested on animals. With out the use of these medicines, none of us would live fast 40, and 30 would be pushing it. When you buy these medicines, you are supporting the market that tests their products on animals, and eventually kills them. There are alternatives, but quite frankly, I can't afford them. You get rid of the market for meat, you get economic collapse. You get rid of animal testing we all die.

I am a pagan. I see plants and animals to be sacred, but I don't have a problem with killing and consuming their delicious flesh. It's like bonding. I ate my dog, it was nice closure. I am thankful to the earth mother for their sacrafice. I am also sorry that they had to die, but I do not see eating the animal as something cruel. We get stuck in this human mindset that death is bad. Death is beautiful. Due to human confines of thinking, we see death as scary and mean, when it's not.