Heaven is Selfish and Without Meaning

[Sage]

I already posted this in my diary but I feel like I'll get more of a debate here. I'm curious as to people's thoughts. I enjoy debating religion, but the usually bullshit on this board consists of "science proves there is no god!" and "faith proves there is a god!" so here's something more philosophical that should hopefully break old deadlocks.

Life is a struggle. From the day you're born until the day you die, there are forces working against you. Human babies are as good as dead without someone to look after and take care of them. We require food and nutrition daily to keep living. If you're poor, you have enough to deal with on your plate already and I need not explain further. If you're well off, paying the rent on a timely manner may not be an issue for you, but you'll find the time to deal with other social drama. Everyone does. If you're rich, you have great influence in many people's lives and your own may be publicized.

Everyone everywhere has done bad things. Nothing is sacred and nobody is truly a saint. Every country has a history of war and conflict and bigotry and strife, everyone is a burden to someone else in their life merely be existing, emotionally or financially. Terrible things happen in our world and this cannot be avoided. I, however, believe that without any of these things, there would be nothing of value. It's war that gives peace value. It's indifference and hate that give love value. It's an uncaring society that makes a helping hand seem so nice.

Heaven has no such things. Thus, an existence in such a place would be devoid of all meaning and purpose. Regardless, even if one could experience bliss in Heaven, it is at the cost of leaving behind a world full of wrongs to be righted- Knowing, fully, that they could be down there lending a hand to someone in need, but instead choosing to sit idly by and experience pure pleasure alone. Hence, Heaven is selfish and without meaning. Anyone with a compelling argument to the contrary is more than welcome, in fact, invited to reply.

[Bougainvillea]

You know, plenty of people are just going to call you cynical. Anyway.

I wholeheartedly agree with what you've said. But for some reason, I find myself uncomfortable to hear it be deemed selfish and meaningless.

[Sage]

But for some reason, I find myself uncomfortable to hear it be deemed selfish and meaningless.

That's because we live in a (by majority of population) judeo-christian society in which people who, while they may not believe in the faith, still follow core ideas of it: Such as wanting "perfection" even when perfection cannot actually exist, as it would be inherently flawed and thus imperfect. People want Heaven because they can't have it. I don't want it because I know it'd suck.

[Bougainvillea]

I understand.

But I think it's a reason for people to be comforted about what happens after you die. The idea of the inevitable becoming of... basically nothing. Nothing but a transfer of energy. And to hear someone say, it's worth nothing, can be heartbreaking to some.

[Sage]

But I think it's a reason for people to be comforted about what happens after you die. The idea of the inevitable becoming of... basically nothing. Nothing but a transfer of energy. And to hear someone say, it's worth nothing, can be heartbreaking to some.

Non-existence seems like a much preferably afterlife to me if my only other option is the Christian Heaven and Hell. Now, if I could go to Asgard, that'd be a different story...

[Bougainvillea]

Asgard is from Stargate right? :P

[Sage]

Asgard is from Stargate right? :P

Norse Mythology >_>

[Bougainvillea]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asgard_(Stargate)

That's what I thought you were talking about, but then I thought maybe you were talking about Stargate.

My cousin loved Stargate. :)

[susan123]

Life is a struggle.
From the day you're born until the day you die, there are forces working against you. Human babies are as good as dead without someone to look after and take care of them. We require food and nutrition daily to keep living. If you're poor, you have enough to deal with on your plate already and I need not explain further. If you're well off, paying
the rent on a timely manner may not be an issue for you, but you'll find the time to deal with other social drama. Everyone does. If you're rich, you have great influence in many people's lives and your own may be publicized.

[karl]

The only thing we don't know is what we'd be doing in Heaven. Maybe we won't just be sitting around doing nothing. There may be work for us there, who knows?

[Sage]

The only thing we don't know is what we'd be doing in Heaven. Maybe we won't just be sitting around doing nothing. There may be work for us there, who knows?

This thread is against the typical Christian notion of heaven: Wherein, you spend the rest of eternity by God's side praising him.

[Peace God]

Heaven = Hell
Eternal Pleasure = Eternal Pain

[MyNameIsJack]

Men created Heaven to have a purpose for living, making life as a road that will end when death arrives, and then God will judge you and if you did well you'll succes, if you dont you're fucked. It can be another another way to control our society, or just another theory that makes our life worth something.

[Peace God]

just another theory that makes our life worth something.
no, it makes our lives pointless

[Death]

And this is why I don't believe in Heaven. Say you have an Xbox 360 which has been broken for ages and you've missed it, you will find pleasure in several things (but you will still miss it). Theb, when it's finally been fixed, you can get a lot of pleasure out of it, until you soon get bored and start having nothing else to do which doesn't involve it. That's not pleasure, and for the same reason, Heaven can't be all pleasurable either. Now, people might like to believe it, but you can never be pleased indefinetely - you get used to things and it becomes normal. Why do you think that poor children in Africa are as happy as us?

[Hanyo]

Interesting post Deschain (and others). You make a lot of valid and insightful points, but I can see that you (like most of the world) are unaware of what the Bible actually teaches.

Heaven (or Hell) is not where we (humans) are supposed to go after we die. Heaven is where God, Jesus and the Heavenly kingdom are supposed to govern from. When humans die, they are no longer aware of anything, they're just void. However, after Armageddon everyone who has died will be resurrected. Armageddon is when the heavenly army (angels) lead by Jesus will end human rule, and enforce governance by the heavenly kingdom.

After Armageddon and everyone who has died has been resurrected, we will be in "judgment day", a period of 1000 years where we can live in true peace and security, and everyone can learn the truth about God and how he wants us to live. The sacrifice of Jesus' blood (when he was killed by the Roman soldiers) will take effect and the curse of sin (which we inherited from Adam and Eve) will be erased.

During judgment day, whoever can accept God's rule will gain everlasting life (as we were originally meant to have), and whoever refuses to obey God will be destroyed. (Not sent to Hell for eternal punishment, just destroyed and will no longer exist)

After judgment day, everyone who loves God will live forever on a new/perfected "paradise" earth.

That's the basic summary of it, but there's a lot of details I left out. The Bible is huge after all...

So everything you've said about we've all done bad things, and nobody is perfect, yes, its all absolutely true. The only humans who were ever perfect were Adam and Eve (until they disobeyed God and ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and bad) and then Jesus, who remained perfect. In my opinion though, Jesus did have a strong advantage in remaining loyal over Adam and Eve because he had possibly millions of years of experience serving God before he came to earth and was born as a human...

The paradise will be awesome, because it will have real peace and prosperity for everyone. "God will wipe out every tear" and "Death as the final enemy will be brought to nothing".

If you think happiness is merely the absence of pain, you don't know what real happiness is. You CAN have happiness without suffering. Think about a young child, who has been raised with great care and love. In the first few years of their life they can be protected from every sort of suffering. Some children are able to experience this for at least the early years of their life. So then, these children have never experienced pain, they don't know what suffering even is. But does this mean they are not capable of being happy? Far from it! When I see my niece and nephew who are about 1 and 3 and play with them, I can see that they are so happy, they know nothing of the stresses and anxieties of this terrible world.

We're not meant to die, we were created with the intent that we would live forever. Why do you think people naturally want to live longer? Its because we were never supposed to die in the first place, we only die because of the sin we inherited from Adam and Eve.

You say people want heaven because they can't have it... I think its funny that people want to go to heaven but they don't want to die to get there.

So in conclusion to your claim about heaven being selfish and meaningless, I say your claim isn't quite relevant. Heaven isn't a place most of us are meant to ever go to.

If you have questions about anything I wrote, or want me to cite the portion of the Bible that states anything of what I have explained, just let me know and I can try to answer your question.

[Sage]

but I can see that you (like most of the world) are unaware of what the Bible actually teaches.
I don't care what it really teaches. I've read it and don't believe in it. This post isn't meant to debate the theology of the bible itself, or rather your interpretation- but moreso widespread notions of what Heaven and Hell are thought to be. As you say...

Heaven (or Hell) is not where we (humans) are supposed to go after we die. Heaven is where God, Jesus and the Heavenly kingdom are supposed to govern from. When humans die, they are no longer aware of anything, they're just void. However, after Armageddon everyone who has died will be resurrected. Armageddon is when the heavenly army (angels) lead by Jesus will end human rule, and enforce governance by the heavenly kingdom.

After Armageddon and everyone who has died has been resurrected, we will be in "judgment day", a period of 1000 years where we can live in true peace and security, and everyone can learn the truth about God and how he wants us to live. The sacrifice of Jesus' blood (when he was killed by the Roman soldiers) will take effect and the curse of sin (which we inherited from Adam and Eve) will be erased.

During judgment day, whoever can accept God's rule will gain everlasting life (as we were originally meant to have), and whoever refuses to obey God will be destroyed. (Not sent to Hell for eternal punishment, just destroyed and will no longer exist)
...That's perfectly fine and valid, and I can see you pay attention to less popular books like Revelations more than the average person. However, most Christians don't view things that way, and this post debates most Christians. Regardless,

After judgment day, everyone who loves God will live forever on a new/perfected "paradise" earth.
The big focus of my post was that an existence without pain, strife, and suffering is ultimately a very empty and hollow excuse for living. It is, through sorrow and despair, that all good things in life earn their value. A child who has not worked a day in their lives and is spoiled to death by their parents may not see the value in a warm meal and a roof over their heads, but a child who is not used to having those things would thus have a greater appreciation of them. Whether we're talking about Heaven or some "perfected" Earth, the idea of a "perfect" realm as you and many other Christians describe is an unrealistic and ludicrous notion.

Think of my ideal (note: I said ideal, not perfect, there is no such thing as perfection) world like a tree, if you so care for metaphors. The branches will not twist and turn and reach down to bear their fruit for you, but rather, present a sturdy trunk that you could climb if you put in the effort.

That's the basic summary of it, but there's a lot of details I left out.
Pointless. I've saved time by already cutting down the core of your argument.

So everything you've said about we've all done bad things, and nobody is perfect, yes, its all absolutely true. The only humans who were ever perfect were Adam and Eve (until they disobeyed God and ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and bad) and then Jesus, who remained perfect. In my opinion though, Jesus did have a strong advantage in remaining loyal over Adam and Eve because he had possibly millions of years of experience serving God before he came to earth and was born as a human...
More theology, I'll just repeat that there's no such thing as perfection.

The paradise will be awesome, because it will have real peace and prosperity for everyone. "God will wipe out every tear" and "Death as the final enemy will be brought to nothing".
But why? Life without death would grow dull. Peace is less appreciated without knowing the horror of war. Prosperity is meaningless if everyone has it. A world with no challenges or strife is no world worth living in.

If you think happiness is merely the absence of pain, you don't know what real happiness is.
I don't think that's what happiness is nor did I even imply that in any part of my post.

You CAN have happiness without suffering.
I guess, but you won't appreciate it as much.

Think about a young child, who has been raised with great care and love. In the first few years of their life they can be protected from every sort of suffering. Some children are able to experience this for at least the early years of their life. So then, these children have never experienced pain, they don't know what suffering even is. But does this mean they are not capable of being happy? Far from it! When I see my niece and nephew who are about 1 and 3 and play with them, I can see that they are so happy, they know nothing of the stresses and anxieties of this terrible world.
So you're essentially arguing from the standpoint that ignorance is bliss and we should keep people ignorant of bad things because they might make them unhappy. Yes, I was happy when I was a very young child. However, today I've found greater meaning and pride and happiness in knowing that I still see good in the world and my life despite all the negative things I've been through. There is greater worth to be found in triumphing over your (figurative) demons and welcoming new challenges than avoiding any and all struggle, and that is where Christian philosophy, in my view, fails.

Why do you think people naturally want to live longer? Its because we were never supposed to die in the first place, we only die because of the sin we inherited from Adam and Eve.
People don't naturally want to live long, it's a reflection of our culture. Many people, upon reaching old age, do want to die- Hell, many people see very little meaning in life if it never ends.

You say people want heaven because they can't have it...
People want perfection because they can't have it and because they are ignorant of greater things (see: defeating your struggles in life rather than not having any).

I think its funny that people want to go to heaven but they don't want to die to get there.
Because most Christians believe suicide is a sin that will send you straight to Hell and because most Christians don't actually believe very strongly in their religion and don't want to miss out on life here.

So in conclusion to your claim about heaven being selfish and meaningless, I say your claim isn't quite relevant. Heaven isn't a place most of us are meant to ever go to.
Whether you interpret Heaven from the Bible to be meant for humans or not, the greater picture I was getting at here is that perfection is unattainable, and if anything like how most people describe it, undesirable. The aspect of perfection makes most peoples' notion of Heaven meaningless, and I believe wanting to leave this world behind for a perfect one and not work to improve it is selfish.

If you have questions about anything I wrote, or want me to cite the portion of the Bible that states anything of what I have explained, just let me know and I can try to answer your question.
I don't think that will be necessary, but if you wish to debate philosophy and not theology, I'll more than welcome your rebuttal. I don't care how you interpret the mythology of the Bible, the original post of this thread was meant to challenge ideas and not so much specific claims.

[Peace God]

During judgment day, whoever can accept God's rule will gain everlasting life (as we were originally meant to have), and whoever refuses to obey God will be destroyed. (Not sent to Hell for eternal punishment, just destroyed and will no longer exist)
I'd much rather die than worship god and obey all of his rules for eternity.


We're not meant to die, we were created with the intent that we would live forever. Why do you think people naturally want to live longer? Its because we were never supposed to die in the first place, we only die because of the sin we inherited from Adam and Eve.

People do not naturally want to live longer than a normal life span. If some people do want to live longer, its normally because of irrational beliefs. And even if everyone naturally felt the need to live forever... it STILL doesn't make it true.

[INFERNO]

Heaven is selfish and without meaning

This does seem to be a fair statement but when one considers that many Christians claim the Holy Spirit or god is inside them and will guide them to bliss, this very view is purely individualistic and selfish. For example, certain actions may be considered sinful and this sin only affects that one person's chance of accessing Heaven. In reality the victims and their social networks are affected but all of that is completely ignored. Everything is taken through a lens with the purpose of affecting one's own gains to Heaven, so if one helps someone else out, the reason is purely individualistic.


We're not meant to die, we were created with the intent that we would live forever. Why do you think people naturally want to live longer? Its because we were never supposed to die in the first place, we only die because of the sin we inherited from Adam and Eve.

By saying this, you have just introduced a variety of problems and paradoxes, whereby answering them all is going to lead you down the rabbit hole. For starters, you assert humans were never meant to die. If so, then comes the question of how do people get resurrected if they have not died? The obvious answer is although god planned and designed something in a certain way, things didn't fall through according to plan, such as the Adam and Eve story. Now we reach the first problem: god is said to be perfect and almighty yet his creations that he carefully planned are all flawed because no single organism is immortal. As a result, the credibility of what god says in the bible is tarnished because clearly his whole design just failed yet he plans to carry it out with Armegeddon anyways. One has perfect grounds for questioning whether Armegeddon is true because some of the processes leading to it are wrong.

So it becomes paradoxical: the more we die, the more wrong god is yet the more right people and the bible claim he will be with things after we die.

Another problem is your assertion of people wanting to live longer. While this is true for many, it's not true for everyone because suicide clearly counters this.

This leads to the next paradox: those who do die are likely ill or suicidal so they are the ones who will be resurrected while the healthier, non-suicidal ones are not resurrected as they have not died. But, all are to learn and accept god when one group clearly was shown to be wrong. As the wrong group of those who did die increases, those who are meant to believe in god are questionable whether they will.

Now comes the very last problem: if we were not meant to die, why do scavening non-human animals that eat deceased organisms live? If nobody is meant to die, then having these animals is pointless.

[Hanyo]

Ahh, I understand Deschain… sorry for pulling your thread off topic, I’ll try to stick to your point…

I can tell you’re very intelligent, and you make superb points. As far as your main point that a perfect world would be hollow and meaningless… I can tell we’ll have to agree to disagree. But that’s ok for me, I don’t need to persuade people to my point of view to feel happy, but I’ll continue discussing for now since its interesting.

No such thing as perfection… I agree, humans aren’t capable of it anyway.

Why life without death?? So that we can enjoy it! If you care about someone, don’t you want them to be happy? And alive?

Life without death would grow dull… how do you know? Have you ever lived forever? You make logical points that are well separated from emotion, but this claim is just speculation.

Peace is less appreciated without knowing the horror of war… maybe, we’re imperfect so we forget things quickly, including how much better peace is to war. But still, peace IS better than war, so a world without war would be superior to one with it, provided the cost of that peace isn’t also terrible…

Prosperity is meaningless if everyone has it? Now THAT is a selfish statement. You can’t be happy with what you have without knowing that other people don’t have it too?

A world with no challenges or strife is no world worth living in… it sounds like you’re equating a “perfect world” with a world that is boring and you have nothing to do… Obviously a “perfect world” would have plenty of interesting things to do, and meaningful worthwhile work. Its part of the definition of the word perfect in this context I think. But that’s just my opinion.

True, if you don’t know what suffering is, you might not be AS aware of how much better happiness is, but I’ll still take a world without suffering over this dump any day. And as long as you’re aware that there is such a thing as suffering, I think that’s enough to appreciate happiness adequately. Again, just mho.

Hahah, no I’m not saying we SHOULD keep people ignorant of bad things, I was just saying you can still be VERY happy without having experienced suffering. We should all definitely know that suffering sucks, I’m just saying that not suffering is better.

All I have to do is step over to the depression and grief forum to know that suffering, and this imperfect world that causes it totally sucks. Those people know what suffering is. I don’t care if they would forget how much the suffering sucked, if I could, I would immediately move them to the perfect world where their suffering would go away. But that’s just me, you can disagree with that if you want.

Yes, people DO naturally want to live longer. Its instinct to want to continue living. Have you ever seen someone in a pool struggling to stay above water? Have you ever been afraid that you were going to drown? Its natural, we’re designed to try to stay alive. Its not just a reflection of our culture, its universal, all living things naturally try to stay alive. If that wasn’t true, then people everywhere would just be letting themselves starve to death, or let themselves be hit by cars or trucks on the street. But no, we try to avoid those things because naturally we want to continue living.

Yes, some people want to die… people with depression, or very old people, or people going through overwhelming grief… but look at the cause… it’s the suffering that makes people want to die. The misery is overriding their natural desire to live. They want to escape from a world that sucks and all the pain. If they were healthy and happy, their natural desire to continue living would return to its normal and natural level.

Look at animals… most animals you’ve ever seen will run away if they recognize danger that would hurt or kill them.

Look at plants… most plants that are damaged will try to heal so that they can continue living. They’ll stretch out their roots so that they can find more water, or grow their branches out wider or taller so that their leaves can catch the sunlight.

Sorry, if you think you can disprove that people naturally want to continue living that easily, you’re sorely overconfident.

The idea that suicide will send you to hell is nowhere in the Bible, other than “hell” as just meaning you’re dead. In that sense, its like.. duh…

You are right though, most Christians don’t believe very strongly, and don’t want to give up what they know for a “perfect world” which they know very little about.

Inferno, dude! Your logical arguments are way insightful! But… there are answers to your “paradoxes”.

People who haven’t died wouldn’t need to be resurrected of course.

Yes, God is said to be perfect, but his creations still have free will. The angels and Adam and Eve were created perfect, but they still had free will, and were able to choose to disobey, which Adam and Eve and many of the angels did.

The design didn’t fail, but yes, there were serious problems. Which processes leading to Armageddon are wrong? Can you expand on this a bit?

I disagree with your paradox theory about the more people dying the more wrong God is. This is Genesis 101 level stuff. See Genesis chapter 3. Verse 2 and 3 say “2 At this the woman said to the serpent: “Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. 3 But as for eating of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘YOU must not eat from it, no, YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die.’”

But Adam and Eve chose to eat it, and they died. That’s why ALL of us die. So its actually not a paradox. The more we die, the more God’s words about the fruit are proved true.

I’ve discussed the suicide thing. That’s because of overwhelming unhappiness overcoming the desire to continue living. Did you notice that depression is called a “mental illness”? Its called that because when you have depression, something about your mind isn’t working right. So yeah, people with depression will want to die, but that’s because the natural processes in their brain are broken.

Show me a perfectly healthy and happy person who wants to die, and I may think about conceding defeat on the idea that people naturally want to live. Until then, I think I’ve defeated your arguments on that point.

I don’t quite understand your point about suicidal and non-suicidal people who are wrong, and the people meant to believe in God questioning weather they will… can you try to rephrase or expand on this a bit?

Your last point about scavenging and carrion eating animals is an awesome one! Good job Inferno :) You’re right, there would be no need for animals like that if nothing was ever supposed to die. But as we saw from the early part of Genesis, things didn’t quite go according to plan, so some things were obviously changed in the meantime. Scavenger type animals for one, but there’s others. Originally we were supposed to be vegetarian (in a manner of thinking). The Garden of Eden had trees with fruit that Adam and Eve could eat, but there was nothing mentioned about eating animals. It wasn’t until after the flood that God told Noah he could eat meat from animals, and he gave very detailed instructions about how to prepare it for eating (drain out the blood etc).

So yes, things have deviated from the original plan, but the paradise is supposed to bring us back to that.

Sorry Deschain for continuing on about religious stuff other than heaven / perfect world stuff, but Inferno asked.

[Sage]

I can tell we’ll have to agree to disagree. But that’s ok for me, I don’t need to persuade people to my point of view to feel happy,
Implying I do? I most certainly do not.

No such thing as perfection… I agree, humans aren’t capable of it anyway.
Were you not ranting on about Adam and Eve?

If you care about someone, don’t you want them to be happy? And alive?
Sure, but if they're not going anywhere, then many people would simply put off building strong friendships. I value my relationships because I recognize that I may lose them if I do not work to keep them close.

Life without death would grow dull… how do you know? Have you ever lived forever? You make logical points that are well separated from emotion, but this claim is just speculation.
Fair argument, but in stating this you're making your own side just as invalid, as you have not lived forever either.

Peace is less appreciated without knowing the horror of war… maybe, we’re imperfect so we forget things quickly, including how much better peace is to war. But still, peace IS better than war, so a world without war would be superior to one with it, provided the cost of that peace isn’t also terrible…
So long as free will exists, there will be war.

Prosperity is meaningless if everyone has it? Now THAT is a selfish statement. You can’t be happy with what you have without knowing that other people don’t have it too?
Of what value is wealth if everyone has everything they want? There is nothing to spend it on. Of what value is personal success and prosperity if failure and poverty are impossible to achieve and experience? Life loses worth when you flip on "easy mode", which is essentially what you are calling for.

A world with no challenges or strife is no world worth living in… it sounds like you’re equating a “perfect world” with a world that is boring and you have nothing to do… Obviously a “perfect world” would have plenty of interesting things to do, and meaningful worthwhile work.
Such as?

True, if you don’t know what suffering is, you might not be AS aware of how much better happiness is, but I’ll still take a world without suffering over this dump any day.
And as long as you’re aware that there is such a thing as suffering, I think that’s enough to appreciate happiness adequately.
But why just adequately? That doesn't make your "perfect" world sound very "perfect", given that you admit:

True, if you don’t know what suffering is, you might not be AS aware of how much better happiness is,
That one can achieve a greater appreciation of bliss if they've experienced suffering than if they have not. By suffering and triumphing over my struggles, am I not, by your own conclusion, happier than someone who only knows bliss? You are, indirectly, admitting that your perfect world is not perfect, as there is room for improvement.

Hahah, no I’m not saying we SHOULD keep people ignorant of bad things,
You've said over and over you'd rather have people never experienced pain and sorrow than to have survived it.

I was just saying you can still be VERY happy without having experienced suffering.
Sure you can, but you can achieve greater happiness through finding the strength to rise above your problems. The world your God supposedly grants is of little value if I can find greater things (such as greater happiness and senses of accomplishment) in the world we already have before us.

We should all definitely know that suffering sucks, I’m just saying that not suffering is better.
And I'm saying that suffering and coming out of it as a better person is better than not suffering.

All I have to do is step over to the depression and grief forum to know that suffering, and this imperfect world that causes it totally sucks. Those people know what suffering is. I don’t care if they would forget how much the suffering sucked, if I could, I would immediately move them to the perfect world where their suffering would go away.
I would give them the strength they need to solve their own problems. It is a far more fulfilling experience to solve your problems than have someone just take them away from you. When they simply disappear due to someone taking them away for you, you do not become a stronger, wiser person.

Yes, people DO naturally want to live longer. Its instinct to want to continue living. Have you ever seen someone in a pool struggling to stay above water? Have you ever been afraid that you were going to drown? Its natural, we’re designed to try to stay alive. Its not just a reflection of our culture, its universal, all living things naturally try to stay alive. If that wasn’t true, then people everywhere would just be letting themselves starve to death, or let themselves be hit by cars or trucks on the street. But no, we try to avoid those things because naturally we want to continue living.

Yes, some people want to die… people with depression, or very old people, or people going through overwhelming grief… but look at the cause… it’s the suffering that makes people want to die. The misery is overriding their natural desire to live. They want to escape from a world that sucks and all the pain. If they were healthy and happy, their natural desire to continue living would return to its normal and natural level.
Your second paragraph contradicts your first. I can also tell you do not know many old people- Many that I have met welcome death because they feel they have already lived a life full of accomplishments and things to be proud of.

Look at animals… most animals you’ve ever seen will run away if they recognize danger that would hurt or kill them.
I find it amusing that someone who believes so strongly in the Bible would ever compare humans to animals.

Look at plants… most plants that are damaged will try to heal so that they can continue living. They’ll stretch out their roots so that they can find more water, or grow their branches out wider or taller so that their leaves can catch the sunlight.
Or plants for that matt

Sorry, if you think you can disprove that people naturally want to continue living that easily, you’re sorely overconfident.
I need not disprove anything when you've already disproved it for me.

The idea that suicide will send you to hell is nowhere in the Bible, other than “hell” as just meaning you’re dead. In that sense, its like.. duh…
Again, it matters not whether it's in the Bible. Many people believe it, therefore it is fair grounds for debate and criticism.


So yes, things have deviated from the original plan, but the paradise is supposed to bring us back to that.
Why would they? That's a flaw on God's part. If he is all powerful, this could have been avoided. If he is all knowing, he would've seen it coming. I'll leave you this to consider:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

Sorry Deschain for continuing on about religious stuff other than heaven / perfect world stuff, but Inferno asked.
Why be sorry for talking about Heaven? It's in the freakin' thread title, man.

[Modus Operandi]

Your logic makes sense. I hold no belief in a god/gods of any religion. Heaven and hell are, indeed, pointless constructs. It's like if you screw up once, you go to the worst prison imaginable for all eternity and once you're there, you're there. No getting out, no second chance. If this God truly loved us and created us, Hell wouldn't exist.

Some talk of forgiveness of sins, but imagine this: the worst human being in all of history is, by Catholic rules as I know them, able to state his faith in the lord and ask for his sins to be forgiven on his deathbed and GOD WILL FORGIVE HIM! Yet a man who maybe "sinned" not 5 times in his life will be condemned to hell for eternity. That is why I don't follow religion in general.

[Hanyo]

Deschain – Sorry, I wasn’t trying to imply that you need to convince people to see things your way to be happy either. It was just an expression of my own point of view. I’m getting the sense that you may not care to really think about anything I’ve said, but are only interested in sticking to your point of view, or “winning”. If I’m wrong, please don’t take offense. I’m just letting you know, I may lose interest and stop replying, but that doesn’t mean I concede the point, or even that I think your logic is superior.

Again, I don’t mean to offend, but about the discussion, I back up my point of view with examples and illustrations, where your responses are primarily one-liners expressing disagreement. I think my arguments are stronger, but that’s just my opinion.

The point I was making about Adam and Eve was that they were given perfect bodies and perfect minds, but they chose to disobey God. The inherited sin is what causes our imperfection. Because of that, humans are no longer capable of perfection. At least not until God restores perfection to us, in the paradise.

True, I’ve never lived forever either, but at this point I have a lot of things I’m interested in doing, and no time to do it. So the idea that life could EVER become dull, no matter how long it was is hard for me to think of as realistic. The world is so complex, there’s always more to know and learn. There’s no way to prove the point though, so I can settle with leaving it as a matter of opinion.

Song long as free will exists there will be war? You’ve cited no proof of this. If people lived in a perfected world, where everyone had enough, and people were cured of the flaw of greed, why should anyone go to war? There would be no reason for it, and moreover, in a perfect world, there would be no desire for it.

Personally, I don’t need to have more than others. As long as my family and I have what we need, that’s enough. I don’t need to be above others to feel like my life has meaning. You think life loses meaning if you flip on “easy mode”, but I disagree. I think you’re a bit blinded by your idealism.

If you look at games, it isn’t the difficulty of a game that makes it fun, it’s the richness of the experience. Take for example online games… World of Warcraft has become one of the most popular games, and in a lot of instances, so popular that people have actually become addicted to it. But it wasn’t the difficulty of the game that makes it enjoyable to people. Actually, among online games, World of Warcraft is actually among the easier games to learn and play and progress through. The point that its easier to learn and play has been argued to be the reason why it appeals to such a wide audience compared to other games. Its hard to say that the game being easier isn’t a strong factor in making it popular. Additionally, the amount content has been cited as one of the things that makes the game fun. People can make regular gains without having to work too hard, but there is always more to do.

So I would argue that life does NOT lose value when you turn on “easy mode”. It just gives you the freedom to explore more content.

Hahah, how would I know what there would be to do in a perfect world? I’m not God, just an imperfect human, I could never design a perfect world. But as I’ve said before, there’s tons of things I would like to do that I just don’t have time for. I’d like to learn how to play more types of sports, and actually learn how to play some musical instruments. That would take forever, because I have no talent for it…

In the part about experiencing suffering and knowing happiness, you’re twisting my words to mean something other than what I said. I think awareness that there is such a thing as suffering, is fine. Why do you have to be painfully aware that suffering sucks? What I mean by adequate appreciation of happiness is that it’s satisfying. Would you elevate the requirement of appreciate happiness to the outstanding level? If you set the desired standard that high, are you not just moving “satisfactory” from one place to another? <sighs> word games are tiring…

No, I don’t think suffering and triumphing over struggles necessarily makes people happier than having everything work out well. Awareness of happiness being better than suffering is not the same as being happy. I know people who triumph brilliantly over their struggles, but they are not happy because they know that there are more struggles just around the corner, and the anxiety and constant struggle about what’s upcoming takes away any joy they might have had from their success. These are not even people who are necessarily depressed. Just people who work hard.

You’re rewriting my words again. I don’t think I’ve specifically said “Id rather have people never experience pain and sorrow than to have survived it” Moreover, that’s not the same as keeping people ignorant of it. I can teach you that a particular snake is poisonous and can hurt you if it bites you. You don’t have to physically experience it yourself to learn and understand the lesson and appreciate that you are not being bit by the snake.

Maybe you think you would be happier to defeat struggles and overcome hardship. But as I have explained, that doesn’t apply to everyone. I’m sure there are people who see it your way, but as I’ve illustrated, there are people who work hard to overcome their burdens, but are no happier for it.

Thank you for acknowledging my God, I like the sound of that. Your opinion doesn’t mean that the world my God promises has little value, it just means it has little value to YOU. Personally, I think a lot of the things that there are to “achieve” in this world are quite meaningless. How does this world generally gauge success? Its through accumulation of wealth isn’t it? People always say, “study hard so you can go to a good college and get a good job”. What they mean is a HIGH PAYING job isn’t it? Ok, you fought hard to do well in school and got an awesome scholarship, and went to a high end school and did well and got a high paying job, and accumulated a lot of wealth, so what? Can you bring any of that with you when you die? Did the fact of doing all that work make you happy?

I’m sure you’ve heard this before, but have you ever heard of anyone on their deathbed saying, “Man, I wish I could have had more challenges in life…” or is the story that comes to mind something more like “I should have spent more time with my family…”

Well, in the paradise my God promises, there will be plenty of time to spend with family.

About depressed people – touché, it IS better to give people the strength to endure and the capability to solve their own problems than to have someone simply take them away. That’s part of what the perfect world entails. The sick people will be cured, and there will be no more disease. God WILL give people the strength to endure. Its part of the perfect world package.

Haha, if you had read the entire paragraph, you would know that it doesn’t contradict the proceeding one. It explains why some people want to die. Depressed people’s brains are not functioning properly, chemical imbalance or bad mental conditioning or both… but things aren’t working right.

As I explained, very old people and people with depression are likely to not be able to enjoy life as much as a healthy person, or my find life actually quite painful. So the desire to die is very unnatural. Depression and old age, two things that wouldn’t exist in the perfect world.

Again, if you can show me a healthy and happy person who desires to die, I’ll consider that people might not naturally want to live longer. Until then I’ve defeated your argument on the subject. You can tell I don’t know many old people?? I know lots of old people. Maybe not as many as you, but let me ask you; if the old people you knew that welcome death because they’ve had lives full of accomplishments could be young again and brought back to perfect health, would they still desire to die? We can’t really know, even if we asked them, because they are not young again, so they don’t know what it would feel like to actually be young again. All they have is their memory and imagination.

Its interesting to you that I believe in the bible but would compare humans to plants or animals? Ok, I’m glad you enjoyed that :) I don’t see why I shouldn’t, we were all created by God, so it seems logical that he would design us all with the same desire to live.

Hahah, your one-liner claiming that I’ve disproved for you that people naturally want to live longer is funny. Just because you say it doesn’t make it true. You haven’t given any backup to explain how this works, all you’ve done is said its so.

Ok, go ahead and debate hell with people then. Since you know it, I won’t remind you, but I’ll still point out to other people that the idea of a hell as place of punishment isn’t in the bible, if it seems like they think it is.

Obviously Epicurus knew nothing of God… I’ve heard those same points before, my response:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? -- He is able.
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? -- He is able, willingness is complicated.
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? -- He is able, willing for those who love him in some instances. Satan challenged God’s sovereignty, so God is allowing Satan to rule temporarily so that Satan can try to prove that his way is better. If God prevented evil in every instance, he would be supporting Satan’s rule by making it look like Satan’s way isn’t that bad. That would be a lie. God does not lie. Therefore, God will not support Satan’s rule, and will not just prevent all evil from occurring. He does it like this so that we will see that Satan’s rule sucks. God does protect his loyal ones.

Then whence cometh evil? – An angel thought he knew better than god and desired to be worshipped and take God’s place, so he rebelled, we call him Satan now.
Is he neither able nor willing? -- irrelevant, he is able
Then why call him God? – His power is absolute

Please be more careful when reading if you’re going to taunt me over what I say. I was saying sorry for talking about religious stuff OTHER than heaven. You had made it clear that you’re not interested in what the Bible teaches, just discussion related to heaven.

Modus Operandi – I don’t mean any offense, but from your words its obvious that you know nothing about what the Bible has to say about hell. You said “If this God truly loved us and created us, Hell wouldn’t exist.” There are many people who think the way you do.

The TRUE God does love us and created us. And as fits your expectation, Hell (as a place of eternal torment) does NOT exist. See Ecclesiastes 9:5 “For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.”

It means that when you die you just die. You’re not being tortured in hell, you’re conscious of nothing at all. You don’t have sins to be punished for, your wages (and debts) have been forgotten.

This may or may not surprise you, but Catholic rules are not closely tied to what the Bible actually teaches. Catholic is a form of false religion. I totally agree with your point of view, if the most evil human ever to exist just asked to be forgiven, it would be unfair if he were forgiven while someone who was actually quite good compared to most people was not forgiven, just because he didn’t ask.

[Peace God]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? -- He is able.
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? -- He is able, willingness is complicated.

Not really...he created it...he has the power to stop it. Either he allows evil to exist or he doesn't.

[Bawnji]

The wisest choice to make is to adhere to both views and find the truth within both medium. Science is constructed through theories, of which many are just the assumptions of scientists. Religion is not without truth, but it still revolves in theories just as Science depend on them.

There are no sharp ways in realizing which is the truth, rather we should apply that is sensible and that is beneficial.

[Sage]

@Hanyo: Thanks for the interesting read, but I feel I'll save us both time by saying that any arguments either of us raise can be boiled down to "There is no such thing as perfection" and "Yes there is". If I really wished to get to the point of things, I would say that the burden of evidence falls on you to prove there is such a thing as perfection, as in debate, the burden of evidence does not fall upon someone trying to prove a negative- ie, it is not my responsibility to disprove perfection until you prove it.

The wisest choice to make is to adhere to both views and find the truth within both medium.
Why? If one has a track record of poor results, why must a perfect balance be struck? So many people cling to the idea that balance in everything is ideal but reality suggests otherwise.

[INFERNO]

Yes, God is said to be perfect, but his creations still have free will. The angels and Adam and Eve were created perfect, but they still had free will, and were able to choose to disobey, which Adam and Eve and many of the angels did.

The design didn’t fail, but yes, there were serious problems.

Since Adam and Eve were perfect, they would know not to eat the apple even if they had free will. In fact, they would not eat the apple because that would not make them perfect, it would make them imperfect.

Which processes leading to Armageddon are wrong? Can you expand on this a bit?


I disagree with your paradox theory about the more people dying the more wrong God is. This is Genesis 101 level stuff. See Genesis chapter 3. Verse 2 and 3 say “2 At this the woman said to the serpent: “Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. 3 But as for eating of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘YOU must not eat from it, no, YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die.’”

But Adam and Eve chose to eat it, and they died. That’s why ALL of us die. So its actually not a paradox. The more we die, the more God’s words about the fruit are proved true.

Very clever quote you took because you cleverly avoided Genesis 2:17, which states that if one eats from the tree, one will die THE SAME DAY. Obviously, this is not true for Adam as found in Genesis 5:5 stating he died 930 years later. So regarding the Adam and Eve story, yes either way people die but the details of when Adam and Eve died do not add up.

As people die, it shows god is more and more wrong because of the very fact Adam and Eve were not perfect, they were imperfect. They were created by the hands of god as being perfect but in their actions, it's evident they were imperfect. So as people die, it's not a result of two perfect beings doing something wrong, it's the result of two imperfect beings.


I’ve discussed the suicide thing. That’s because of overwhelming unhappiness overcoming the desire to continue living. Did you notice that depression is called a “mental illness”? Its called that because when you have depression, something about your mind isn’t working right. So yeah, people with depression will want to die, but that’s because the natural processes in their brain are broken.

I'm very well aware of what depression is and not all will want to die. In fact, people with mental illnesses other than depression may want to die, such as Borderline Personality Disorder, which involves more than merely depression.


Show me a perfectly healthy and happy person who wants to die, and I may think about conceding defeat on the idea that people naturally want to live. Until then, I think I’ve defeated your arguments on that point.

Your question can only be answered by saying it is unanswerable since no human being is perfect.


I don’t quite understand your point about suicidal and non-suicidal people who are wrong, and the people meant to believe in God questioning weather they will… can you try to rephrase or expand on this a bit?

Since Armageddon is purely hypothetical, my assertion shall also be hypothetical. My point was that suicidal people will die faster and sooner than non-suicidal people (assume same age, physical health, diet and so on). When Armageddon is to come, only those who have died shall be resurrected not the ones who are living. My next point was those who have died from natural causes, murder/other or by suicide will come to accept god because he has shown evidence of himself by resurrecting the dead. Those who did not yet die will not be part of the Armageddon that many Christians look towards. In other words, they'll be outcasts.


Your last point about scavenging and carrion eating animals is an awesome one! Good job Inferno :) You’re right, there would be no need for animals like that if nothing was ever supposed to die. But as we saw from the early part of Genesis, things didn’t quite go according to plan, so some things were obviously changed in the meantime. Scavenger type animals for one, but there’s others. Originally we were supposed to be vegetarian (in a manner of thinking). The Garden of Eden had trees with fruit that Adam and Eve could eat, but there was nothing mentioned about eating animals. It wasn’t until after the flood that God told Noah he could eat meat from animals, and he gave very detailed instructions about how to prepare it for eating (drain out the blood etc).

True but there's one passage in Genesis that seems to not quite fit:

Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. (Genesis 3:21)

It is clear god killed either humans or non-human animals and made skin coats. If there were animals for god to do this with, then would there have not been animals for humans to eat, or did god simply create a few animals, kill and skin them?


So yes, things have deviated from the original plan, but the paradise is supposed to bring us back to that.

If god is perfect in every way and made a perfect plan, then how could it go askew? Simple answer is free will but it seems rather silly for god to have given this but never taken any of it into consideration, so it was more of a guess as to how things may go rather than a divine plan for how things will go. If the plan didn't include or foresee these, then it's a careless unfounded prediction of what may happen if everything goes right but knowing it won't all go right, it's kind of a useless plan to have.

[Perseus]

Hanyo, I have a question for you. Do you believe that the dinosaurs once existed and the Earth is older than six thousand years old?

[Hanyo]

Not really...he created it...he has the power to stop it. Either he allows evil to exist or he doesn't.

Read the next few lines for the answer to is he both able AND willing? He DOES want to stop evil, but the situation is a bit complicated.

[Hanyo]

If I really wished to get to the point of things, I would say that the burden of evidence falls on you to prove there is such a thing as perfection, as in debate, the burden of evidence does not fall upon someone trying to prove a negative- ie, it is not my responsibility to disprove perfection until you prove it.


Glad you thought the discussion was interesting =)

The possibility of perfection does seem to be a main point. The problem I see with proving perfection in this discussion is that I think we're looking at it with different definitions.

I imagine that by your definition a perfect person would be incapable of making any mistakes, even if they had incomplete data. Which would mean they can also make perfect guesses and guess right every time, and would be incapable of being tricked, because their perfect perception and intuition would allow them to see through lies etc... and would be able to hit holes in 1 in golf every time without having ever practiced it before, and able to draw perfectly straight lines free-hand indefinitely... Ok sure, in the sense of ABSOLUTE perfection and being incapable of doing anything with even slight flaws... I agree, perfection is impossible, unless its God that's doing it I guess.

I can accept God's definition of perfection though, so I would say that Jesus was an example of a perfect human. He had perfect obedience to his father, God, which is why his life can cover for everyone's sins. Phillipains 2:8-11 "8 More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."

But, now I suppose you'll find a way to explain how Jesus was not perfect. So I presume we're left agreeing to disagree on the basis that we can't agree on a definition for "perfect".

[Brighter.Tomorrow]

Heaven is said to be Perfection, along with God. The latin meaning of the word Perfection mean To Finish & A Finishing. The Buddhist believe that once Perfection is reached, it ceases to exist, in which mean God and Heaven would no longer exist and only Satan and Hell would.
But, God's creations aren't perfect, he created Heaven, and it already had one flaw. Lucifer. Defied God, but he was something of Heaven, another perfect Holy Being, which right there tells us, that even as perfect as God is meant to be, there are still flaws.

[Hanyo]

Inferno – You are absolutely right, Adam and Eve were perfect and knew not to eat the apple, as I quoted from Gen 3:2-3. They DID know not to eat the apple, and eating it made them imperfect.

I’m glad you brought up Gen 2:17, what an excellent point! We often interpret that verse wrong because of the way its translated. The original Hebrew of that verse means that in the day that they eat the fruit, they will BEGIN to die. Follow this link for the linguistic explanation if you’re interested: http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2010/03/09/satan-the-fall-good-evil-why-didnt-adam-die-instantly

About your follow on paragraph about Adam and Eve being imperfect beings vs perfect beings who did something wrong… I think we’re stuck on what the definition of perfect means. If God had made them to be incapable of choosing to disobey, then they wouldn’t really have free will. God loves us, so he gave us the gift of free will. We’re not forced to love him and obey, we’re free to choose to or choose not to. Since God gave them true free will, they were capable of choosing to disobey, even when they knew they shouldn’t. What made them different from us is that they had the capacity to be perfectly obedient, and chose to disobey. We are inherently flawed, so we don’t have the capacity for perfect obedience.

Ok, you are aware of mental illnesses that can cause people to want to die, I knew you would be. Ok, so we agree that no human is perfect. And.. my question is unanswerable? So then can you at least bring yourself to agree that its natural for people to want to continue living? C’mon, it doesn’t hurt your pride THAT much does it?

Ok I think I understand what you’re trying to say about Armageddon a little better… but why would people who had not yet died be outcasts? They wouldn’t need to be resurrected because they hadn’t died yet. Dying first isn’t a requirement to be granted everlasting life in paradise.

On Genesis 3:21, yeah God made Adam and Eve “long garments of skin”… It doesn’t say anywhere that he killed anything to get the skin. He might have, but there’s nothing mentioned about it. He has absolute power though, and can do anything, so maybe he just created the garments out of thin air, and the material happened to be some kind of animal hide… either way I don’t see the point. There’s no mention of anyone eating meat until after God tells Noah he can.

Haha, interesting discussion about “divine plans”… Well, yeah, free will is the answer. God could have gone ahead and predicted everything that could go wrong and taken precautions against it, but then if everything was pre-ordained according to some giant divine master plan, what kind of free will would that be?

I don’t think God’s plan was that detailed, I think he kept it simple. Something like “I’ll make a man and give him a wife, and put them in charge of all the plants and animals. And I’ll give them a nice place to live, a garden that has plenty of fruits for them to eat. And… to allow them to show that they are obedient because they love me and they choose to, I’ll only make one rule, and I’ll make it easy to follow, which will be to not eat from a particular tree…”

Moreover, why would God even want to plan every detail in advance? Its sort of like, wouldn’t a movie be more interesting to watch for the first time if you don’t read the script before walking into the theater?

If your parents planned your whole life in advance, and made arrangements so that you were incapable of making a mistake, of even choosing to make a mistake… wouldn’t you think they weren’t really giving you freedom to do what you wanted?

[Perseus]

OKay Hanyo, don't answer my question. D:

[Hanyo]

OKay Hanyo, don't answer my question. D:

Sorry Perseus, I was focused on Inferno's post for a while, didn't mean to leave you hanging.

Do I believe that dinosaurs once existed and that the earth is older than 6000 years?...

Yes of course the dinosaurs existed, we have things called fossils that prove it.

I don't know how old the earth is, but I think its probably older than 6000 years.

Try to stay on topic, the thread is about Heaven / a perfected world, not how well I was paying attention in science class... =)

[Perseus]

Sorry Perseus, I was focused on Inferno's post for a while, didn't mean to leave you hanging.

Do I believe that dinosaurs once existed and that the earth is older than 6000 years?...

Yes of course the dinosaurs existed, we have things called fossils that prove it.

I don't know how old the earth is, but I think its probably older than 6000 years.

Try to stay on topic, the thread is about Heaven / a perfected world, not how well I was paying attention in science class... =)

The reason I ask this is because you've started talking about Adam and Eve and the Story of Genesis. Why do you believe two people started the human race, when dinosaurs existed? Dinosaurs existed quite a while ago, and the human race is fairly new, and that being said, I do not think two people can start a race of people who have six and a half billion people and a multitude of races. Your logic confuses me.

[Bawnji]

About the dinosaurs, the fossils do not validate the way we present dinosaurs. Do we really know they looked like that?

[Peace God]

About the dinosaurs, the fossils do not validate the way we present dinosaurs. Do we really know they looked like that?
really?
http://www.mysciencebox.org/files/images/T%20rex.jpg

and what does their appearance have to do with whether or not they existed?
Read the next few lines for the answer to is he both able AND willing? He DOES want to stop evil, but the situation is a bit complicated.
yeah i read it

you said...
If God prevented evil in every instance, he would be supporting Satan’s rule by making it look like Satan’s way isn’t that bad. That would be a lie. God does not lie. Therefore, God will not support Satan’s rule, and will not just prevent all evil from occurring. He does it like this so that we will see that Satan’s rule sucks.
the fact that god made a bet with satan doesn't make my statement any less valid...
he created it...he has the power to stop it. Either he allows evil to exist or he doesn't.

[Sage]

Why make a bet with Satan anyway? God is all-knowing, he already knew what the end result would be.

[INFERNO]

Inferno – You are absolutely right, Adam and Eve were perfect and knew not to eat the apple, as I quoted from Gen 3:2-3. They DID know not to eat the apple, and eating it made them imperfect.

But this argument makes no sense. If they knew not to eat it and were made perfect so they would not, then why did they? Their choosing to eat it, even the thoughts of it suggest imperfection. So when you say they ate it anyways, why did they eat it? Your answer will be free will and my answer will be they were made in the image of god who is said to be perfect. If their actions suggest imperfection, then there is a question about the creator himself. The only reason is they were imperfect at some time before biting the fruit, then what happened after simply spiraled everything downwards. Your argument is not answering the why they chose to eat the apple without removing the notion of being perfect.


About your follow on paragraph about Adam and Eve being imperfect beings vs perfect beings who did something wrong… I think we’re stuck on what the definition of perfect means. If God had made them to be incapable of choosing to disobey, then they wouldn’t really have free will. God loves us, so he gave us the gift of free will. We’re not forced to love him and obey, we’re free to choose to or choose not to. Since God gave them true free will, they were capable of choosing to disobey, even when they knew they shouldn’t. What made them different from us is that they had the capacity to be perfectly obedient, and chose to disobey. We are inherently flawed, so we don’t have the capacity for perfect obedience.

You brought up a good point I was over-looking, so to address that point, what is the definition of perfect? My view was since they were made directly from god's image, they will not do nor think anything they should not.


Ok, you are aware of mental illnesses that can cause people to want to die, I knew you would be. Ok, so we agree that no human is perfect. And.. my question is unanswerable? So then can you at least bring yourself to agree that its natural for people to want to continue living? C’mon, it doesn’t hurt your pride THAT much does it?

I was agreeing it's natural for people to want to continue to living although perhaps didn't phrase it so clearly before.


Ok I think I understand what you’re trying to say about Armageddon a little better… but why would people who had not yet died be outcasts? They wouldn’t need to be resurrected because they hadn’t died yet. Dying first isn’t a requirement to be granted everlasting life in paradise.

Perhaps I'm wrong on my knowledge then because I thought one had to die in some way to go to purgatory or "be judged".


On Genesis 3:21, yeah God made Adam and Eve “long garments of skin”… It doesn’t say anywhere that he killed anything to get the skin. He might have, but there’s nothing mentioned about it. He has absolute power though, and can do anything, so maybe he just created the garments out of thin air, and the material happened to be some kind of animal hide… either way I don’t see the point. There’s no mention of anyone eating meat until after God tells Noah he can.

So god waved his hand and garments just appeared? This is something that keeps confusing me because it shows god directly benefited someone in the bible yet also made the snake, fruit and tree to directly curse and kill someone(s).


I don’t think God’s plan was that detailed, I think he kept it simple. Something like “I’ll make a man and give him a wife, and put them in charge of all the plants and animals. And I’ll give them a nice place to live, a garden that has plenty of fruits for them to eat. And… to allow them to show that they are obedient because they love me and they choose to, I’ll only make one rule, and I’ll make it easy to follow, which will be to not eat from a particular tree…”

The other question though is this: god made everything, including evil so why are Adam and Eve taking the blame? If they did obey god and not eat the fruit, evil was still present anyways so it wouldn't matter. But instead they are taking the blame for something beyond their control and possibly made before they existed. One can evil go so far as to call god himself good and evil, so Adam and Eve cannot be blamed for the presence nor origination of evil.


Moreover, why would God even want to plan every detail in advance? Its sort of like, wouldn’t a movie be more interesting to watch for the first time if you don’t read the script before walking into the theater?

He's said to be all-knowing, so he must plan out the future for this to be correct. He cannot be all-knowing if he doesn't know what is going to happen in the next few minutes, it makes him basically at the level of an ordinary imperfect human being. It's like me going to a psychic who says they can tell me exactly what I will do in five years from now but cant tell me whether I'm going to buy a hamburger or pizza for lunch. Makes no sense because knowing more and more into the future requires knowing more and more the outcomes of my decisions.

[Perseus]

Hanyo, I would like for you to read the book Ishmael by Daniel Quinn, for it has relevance to Adam and Eve, of the fact of how it explains that Adam and Eve's name were symbolic in the language of the Semites, of whom were the ancestors of the Hebrew. Now, for me to tell you right here and now would spoil the point of reading the book(:P), for it is a good book, and you'll understand better there. Trust me; I just had a freaking revelation reading to the part I'm at, lol.