Entitlements?

[kingpinnn]

should we have entitlements like medicaid? what is your opinion and what effect do they have on the economy, society, politics?

[Peace God]

I have to go but i'll say one thing real quick...
it's always easy to say "fend for yourselves" when you already have a head start

[Disco Jones]

I do not believe our over-entitled society deserves socialist institutions like public education or the military.

[kingpinnn]

I have to go but i'll say one thing real quick...
it's always easy to say "fend for yourselves" when you already have a head start
you can always get ahead...my mom was a single teenage mom and now she makes a 6 figure salary...if you work hard you can succeed, and if you fail you must pick yourself up and try again;it will be harder than before, but if you persevere then it will work out...
it took Edison thousands of rimes when he was trying to create a light bulb, but he kept trying...and if he had failed he wold have owed millions of dollars to his investors...but that is what the American dream is...it is bet it all and hope for the best...we have lost that mentality with the entitlements we have created and it will only get worse with Obama and the Democrats passing the regulations bill in congress which will give the head of the treasury the ability to dismantle ANY financial institution deemed to big to fail...

[Peace God]

of course its possible for a people to work their way up but you act that there's well paying jobs just waiting for the majority of unemployed and low class people to get off their asses... this is not the case
im not a fan of entitlements but until that problem is fixed, to suggest that of all things that the govt wastes money on, welfare is the thing that should be cut is absolutely insane

[Whisper]

you can always get ahead...my mom was a single teenage mom and now she makes a 6 figure salary...if you work hard you can succeed, and if you fail you must pick yourself up and try again;it will be harder than before, but if you persevere then it will work out...
it took Edison thousands of rimes when he was trying to create a light bulb, but he kept trying...and if he had failed he wold have owed millions of dollars to his investors...but that is what the American dream is...it is bet it all and hope for the best...we have lost that mentality with the entitlements we have created and it will only get worse with Obama and the Democrats passing the regulations bill in congress which will give the head of the treasury the ability to dismantle ANY financial institution deemed to big to fail...

Thomas Edison didn't invent the light bulb from scratch
he bought the patent off of Humphry Davy and then refined it
aka he had help and a head start

and thats an easy mentality to have for a white middle class teen
its no where near that easy for the majority

[kingpinnn]

of course its possible for a people to work their way up but you act that there's well paying jobs just waiting for the majority of unemployed and low class people to get off their asses... this is not the case
im not a fan of entitlements but until that problem is fixed, to suggest that of all things that the govt wastes money on, welfare is the thing that should be cut is absolutely insane

im not saying that is the only thing we need to cut, but if we dont cut that along with other things including defense spending, we will have to increase taxes which will severely hinder economic development

Thomas Edison didn't invent the light bulb from scratch
he bought the patent off of Humphry Davy and then refined it
aka he had help and a head start

and thats an easy mentality to have for a white middle class teen
its no where near that easy for the majority

regardless of where you start in life...if you are in america (i cannot speak for the rest of the world)...you have the opportunity to succeed, some people might have better luck than you do, but that just means you will have to work a bit harder...but i dont think that my ap class that i am taking is made harder for the black kid that is taking the same class that sits next to me every day...and we both take that class to get college credit in hopes of a scholarship; i.e. we work hard and hope for the best

[Disco Jones]

It's fantastic that you go to a good school and have the opportunity to take AP classes for college credit.

[Nickk XD]

I too am lucky to go to a school that offers AP classes and get ahead in the world (as the California budget isn't looking so hot, 80% of California schools have cut AP programs).

I, myself, will try my hardest to get ahead in the world and not need to rely on the government for my next pay check or my medical bills. That's me, but not everyone.

Medicaid is necessary for people unable to work, people who have a mistake child too early, etc. A healthy America does equal better working populations, that's one of the reasons Medicaid (Medi-Cal in California, cause we're special :p) exists.

[Disco Jones]

How many people do you guys know that are on welfare?

[Nickk XD]

I know a couple.

All of which NEED it.

One I know got in a car accident and cannot work therefore needs it.

Someone else is mentally ill and needs it.

California is pretty picky though, now that we're poor.

People who use welfare as a transitional service (like losing job) have 5 years to get a job and then they get cut off. If we get Meg Whitman, former CEO of eBay, as governor 2010, the time will be cut to two years...which could be good or bad...not really sure.

[The Batman]

How many people do you guys know that are on welfare?

I know a lot of people on welfare and working that are still barely making it by.

[Whisper]

regardless of where you start in life...if you are in america (i cannot speak for the rest of the world)...you have the opportunity to succeed, some people might have better luck than you do, but that just means you will have to work a bit harder...but i dont think that my ap class that i am taking is made harder for the black kid that is taking the same class that sits next to me every day...and we both take that class to get college credit in hopes of a scholarship; i.e. we work hard and hope for the best

k i'm not trying to be rude, so please don't take this as an attack but....you completely missed the entire concept i'm trying to get across
You're looking at this entire philosophical debate in a VERY simplistic manner
that in reality, just does not exist

BUT on a basic, simplistic, apples to apples level (that you're operating on with this entire debate; ignoring race, gender, family income, etc.......), the school system in the united states is utterly pathetic and disgraceful. Education plays a significant role on the doors you have available to you and yet America's education system as an institution, is failing, MISERABLY!
LEf-vJZOj4M

[Antares]

and thats an easy mentality to have for a white middle class teen
its no where near that easy for the majority

Quoted for some major major truth


People don't understand I think that people have a hard time. They have a lot of things going against them sometimes.
There are some opportunties that some people have that other people don't and that difference means a lot.

People can't always go from ghetto to 6 figure salary...in America today...probably only 1% can do that so it bothers me sooo frickin much when people say "all you have to do is work hard". Fuck that.
Working hard doesn't get very much class change in the REAL world.
Real world being people that suffer every day and are denied basic rights...like healthcare.

I can name so many people and examples that some people are just oblivious to.

So please don't give me that American Dream, work hard get what you want crap because no matter how optimistic you are, it just does not always work like that.
Reiterating, I know people that work their asses off and they are in the same exact spot they were at at the beginning of the day.

Umm back on topic.
As a society, we should have a duty to help people. Healthcare is included and people that can afford healthcare and has the ability to help others should just pay their...10 percent income tax that goes to social security to save some lives.

People need to have hearts and stop being so god damn selfish.

America today is selfish and it is quite sad and in my opinion limits the development of our country.

[kingpinnn]

I know a couple.

All of which NEED it.

One I know got in a car accident and cannot work therefore needs it.

Someone else is mentally ill and needs it.

California is pretty picky though, now that we're poor.

People who use welfare as a transitional service (like losing job) have 5 years to get a job and then they get cut off. If we get Meg Whitman, former CEO of eBay, as governor 2010, the time will be cut to two years...which could be good or bad...not really sure.

i dont think that it takes 2 years to get a job, and if we are in a depression or a recession like we are in now, that is why we prolong these entitlements...instead of making the entitlements set, we should make them fluctuate with the stability of the market, if the market is good, there should be not entitlements, if the market is bad, there should be some...i dont agree with giving people things they dont earn...

I too am lucky to go to a school that offers AP classes and get ahead in the world (as the California budget isn't looking so hot, 80% of California schools have cut AP programs).

I, myself, will try my hardest to get ahead in the world and not need to rely on the government for my next pay check or my medical bills. That's me, but not everyone.

Medicaid is necessary for people unable to work, people who have a mistake child too early, etc. A healthy America does equal better working populations, that's one of the reasons Medicaid (Medi-Cal in California, cause we're special :p) exists.

i believe in helping people that cannot help themselves, but if they get themselves into that situation by getting to much debt, having a kid while in school, or they will not work because they want to get a paycheck for eachkid they have...and good job with school, if you do your best you can get a scholarship and dont forget community service, and clubs and stuff...you might need to sacrifice a bit of social life...work hard now and you might get a better life later

How many people do you guys know that are on welfare?

my aunt, my friend's dad, and my friend's mom...my aunt is dumb and does the bare minimum at her work, my friend's dad just sits around and smokes cigarettes all day, and my friend's mom lives with her parents along with my friend because she cant maintain a job long enough to get off her feet...

[Nickk XD]

Another key note to take into account is the "American Dream" that many people wishes still exist does NOT exist.

Immigration: migration into a place
Emmigration: migration out of a place

For years dating back to when the U.S. first began to be the U.S. we have had "immigration". This was openly welcomed and still somewhat is, if done legally. Until about 20 years, we had constant migration into America. The numbers have changed. We now have about the same amount of people that were coming...now leaving.

I actually just finished an essay for my AP History class on this topic.

To say that just by working hard will get you somewhere is definitely not true anymore.

[kingpinnn]

Another key note to take into account is the "American Dream" that many people wishes still exist does NOT exist.

Immigration: migration into a place
Emmigration: migration out of a place

For years dating back to when the U.S. first began to be the U.S. we have had "immigration". This was openly welcomed and still somewhat is, if done legally. Until about 20 years, we had constant migration into America. The numbers have changed. We now have about the same amount of people that were coming...now leaving.

I actually just finished an essay for my AP History class on this topic.

To say that just by working hard will get you somewhere is definitely not true anymore.

yes it does...it is not as easy to obtain anymore due to the many progressive presidents we have had, but it is still achievable

[Antares]

yes it does...it is not as easy to obtain anymore due to the many progressive presidents we have had, but it is still achievable

How the hell do progressive presidents hamper the American dream??

You're saying Teddy Roosevelt has inhibited people from achieving the American dream?

Explain your reasoning behind this please...

[The Batman]

yes it does...it is not as easy to obtain anymore due to the many progressive presidents we have had, but it is still achievable
What you don't understand is that just because your mom did it, it doesn't mean anyone can. If you're living in poverty working a minimum wage job that's barely paying the pills odds are you'll stay there. Even if a promotion comes up you have just as much of a chance to get it as the person working with you. Sometimes hard work doesn't pay off and you do need a little help to be able to make it farther than where you are.

[Nickk XD]

Put this into perspective.

In the 50's and 60's, anyone could have a good job with or without a college education. There was little need for a degree.

In the 70's, an AA degree became almost mandatory to land yourself into a well paying job.

In the 80's-mid 90's a BA or BS degree was required in order to obtain a well paying job.

Currently, BA and BS degrees are the standard, but even this is going down hill. Soon (within next 5-10 years) a Master's will be required in order to obtain a good/well paying job.

The KNOWN American Dream DOES NOT exist anymore. You have just as big of a chance being rich in England as you do here. The American Dream represented that THIS was the place to come for success and happiness. Now you can have the same success and happiness in almost any other industrialized nation. I have an Aunt who lives and works SOLELY in Canada as a Canadian Citizen and makes about 140,000 per year with a BA degree she received. Tell me if that is possible in the US...UNLIKELY. As a matter of fact, she tried to get an equivalent job in the states only to find she'd make only about 75% of what she makes now.

yes it does...it is not as easy to obtain anymore due to the many progressive presidents we have had, but it is still achievable

[kingpinnn]

so...because the American dream doesn't exist, we should just give things to people?

[Nickk XD]

Pretty much.

The system is there for that purpose: to help people who are unable to help themselves.

Yes, like all systems, it does get abused. However, this has lead to stricter regulations...but varies state by state.

[The Batman]

so...because the American dream doesn't exist, we should just give things to people?

It's not about giving things to people, it's about helping someone who can't make it by themselves and like Nick said it does get abused but that doesn't mean you should cut everyone. I'm pretty sure while your mom was coming up she probably had some type of government assistance.

[Antares]

Can you please respond to me just once :/

How the hell do progressive presidents hamper the American dream??

You're saying Teddy Roosevelt has inhibited people from achieving the American dream?

Explain your reasoning behind this please...

Quoted for some major major truth


People don't understand I think that people have a hard time. They have a lot of things going against them sometimes.
There are some opportunties that some people have that other people don't and that difference means a lot.

People can't always go from ghetto to 6 figure salary...in America today...probably only 1% can do that so it bothers me sooo frickin much when people say "all you have to do is work hard". Fuck that.
Working hard doesn't get very much class change in the REAL world.
Real world being people that suffer every day and are denied basic rights...like healthcare.

I can name so many people and examples that some people are just oblivious to.

So please don't give me that American Dream, work hard get what you want crap because no matter how optimistic you are, it just does not always work like that.
Reiterating, I know people that work their asses off and they are in the same exact spot they were at at the beginning of the day.

Umm back on topic.
As a society, we should have a duty to help people. Healthcare is included and people that can afford healthcare and has the ability to help others should just pay their...10 percent income tax that goes to social security to save some lives.

People need to have hearts and stop being so god damn selfish.

America today is selfish and it is quite sad and in my opinion limits the development of our country.

You posted in the debate forum, lets debate

[kingpinnn]

so...we should take money from people that have gotten through their troubles and give it to people that mope about others having it easier than they do? i have an idea...stop complaining about people having a head start and give yourself a head start...i dont complain that rich kids are able to not work hard and their parents send them to college...my family cant afford the colleges i want to go to which is why i am working hard in school...people need to stop complaining about what they dont have and start working to get what they want

you are also forgetting that entitlements are a noble thing to do but they are also bankrupting the country...discretionary spending makes up 35% of our budget i.e. defense and others are the only thing the politicians are willing to change, and unless we almost eliminate defense and other discretionary programs that is the only way to get rid of the deficit...we need to also tackle medicare, medicaid, and social security which make up 39% of our budget...and other mandatory spending makes up another 17 percent..we must tackle all these issues and we must explore the options of reducing the entitlements as well as defense spending. we will face hard times, but those times will be necessary so we do not become consumed by our debt and deficit.

[Peace God]

i have an idea...stop complaining about people having a head start and give yourself a head start...

the majority of people that are on welfare dont sit on their asses all day and complain...they're out there working hard and trying to move up
so i have no problem with them using all of the resources available(welfare, medicaid, section 8, etc) help to them move up and get ahead

[The Batman]

so...we should take money from people that have gotten through their troubles and give it to people that mope about others having it easier than they do? i have an idea...stop complaining about people having a head start and give yourself a head start...i dont complain that rich kids are able to not work hard and their parents send them to college...my family cant afford the colleges i want to go to which is why i am working hard in school...people need to stop complaining about what they dont have and start working to get what they want

you are also forgetting that entitlements are a noble thing to do but they are also bankrupting the country...discretionary spending makes up 35% of our budget i.e. defense and others are the only thing the politicians are willing to change, and unless we almost eliminate defense and other discretionary programs that is the only way to get rid of the deficit...we need to also tackle medicare, medicaid, and social security which make up 39% of our budget...and other mandatory spending makes up another 17 percent..we must tackle all these issues and we must explore the options of reducing the entitlements as well as defense spending. we will face hard times, but those times will be necessary so we do not become consumed by our debt and deficit.

So how is having people struggle to barely make it by helping the deficit? The only way we can get out of it is by putting more money in the people's hands and giving them a chance to do something more with their life.

[Nickk XD]

This is very, very true.

That's the entire point of the stimulus plan.

We recently had a summer work program here sponsored by the Stimulus Bill which provided free work to employers, money to the employees, and then in turn other businesses would be more successful because of the increased money flowing (in the hands of the employees of the program). This program was a national work program. Handing money out does strongly impact the economy (and even deficit) in positive ways. Banks and businesses require less bailouts and therefore require less of the governments money.



So how is having people struggle to barely make it by helping the deficit? The only way we can get out of it is by putting more money in the people's hands and giving them a chance to do something more with their life.

[kingpinnn]

So how is having people struggle to barely make it by helping the deficit? The only way we can get out of it is by putting more money in the people's hands and giving them a chance to do something more with their life.
so we take to the people that "got lucky" or "got a head start" not by working hard...of course not..and give the money we take to the people that are struggling...this helps them, but it drains the government of money that could be used for infrastructure which helps the economy more, it drives up taxes which hinders economic growth.

This is very, very true.

That's the entire point of the stimulus plan.

We recently had a summer work program here sponsored by the Stimulus Bill which provided free work to employers, money to the employees, and then in turn other businesses would be more successful because of the increased money flowing (in the hands of the employees of the program). This program was a national work program. Handing money out does strongly impact the economy (and even deficit) in positive ways. Banks and businesses require less bailouts and therefore require less of the governments money.

the stimulus plan has been remarkably ineffective...it has helped infrastructure a bit, but at the cost of 1 million dollars a job...if they had not put all this money into the stimulus plan which was also largely a hand out to businesses, they could taken way the business income tax entirely, thus reducing product's costs by up to 30% which would have remarkably helped the economy...they could have decreased or even eliminated subsidies for farmers thus increasing food produce and driving down costs...this decrease in price would lead to an increase the money flow...and the business tax being eliminated would provide a MASSIVE incentive for global businesses or entrepreneurs to start businesses here.

[Nickk XD]

I can name over a 100 local businesses (local=northern california) that have PUBLICLY stated that the stimulus money and this summer work program, in particular, have saved them from going under.

Every...and I mean EVERY president that has entered during a recession as done a very similar stimulus plan...some of which work, some of which take time. We are no longer losing millions of jobs per day, and we can thank the stimulus plan for that. It seems as if you're blaming Obama for the current state of the economy when none of it is his fault. He entered during the worse part of the recession and NO it hasn't gotten worse.
so we take to the people that "got lucky" or "got a head start" not by working hard...of course not..and give the money we take to the people that are struggling...this helps them, but it drains the government of money that could be used for infrastructure which helps the economy more, it drives up taxes which hinders economic growth.



the stimulus plan has been remarkably ineffective...it has helped infrastructure a bit, but at the cost of 1 million dollars a job...if they had not put all this money into the stimulus plan which was also largely a hand out to businesses, they could taken way the business income tax entirely, thus reducing product's costs by up to 30% which would have remarkably helped the economy...they could have decreased or even eliminated subsidies for farmers thus increasing food produce and driving down costs...this decrease in price would lead to an increase the money flow...and the business tax being eliminated would provide a MASSIVE incentive for global businesses or entrepreneurs to start businesses here.

[Tiberius]

Thomas Edison didn't invent the light bulb from scratch
he bought the patent off of Humphry Davy and then refined it
aka he had help and a head start

and thats an easy mentality to have for a white middle class teen
its no where near that easy for the majority

But being white and middle class is the majority...

[The Batman]

so we take to the people that "got lucky" or "got a head start" not by working hard...of course not..and give the money we take to the people that are struggling...this helps them, but it drains the government of money that could be used for infrastructure which helps the economy more, it drives up taxes which hinders economic growth.

Since when was it a problem to help out someone that can't do it on their own? You're acting as if the money being taken isn't going towards a good cause. Also welfare is only temporary no one gets it forever because it's suppose to be helping them transition into the working force or a higher paying job.
For the most part, welfare is a transient program. Recipients don't remain on the program forever. Fewer than 20 percent of all people on welfare remain on the program for less than seven months. Another 20 percent are on welfare for one to two years. Still, 27 percent remain on welfare for two to five years. Of all welfare recipients, 20 percent remain on welfare more than five years.
Source (http://www.ehow.com/about_4675101_welfare-statistics.html)
Unfortunately these statistics aren't very recent but they were the only ones I could find. But it shows that even in the 90's before Clinton came and put a limit on the amount of welfare that states receive it was helping to get people into the working world and no longer needing it.

[Whisper]

But being white and middle class is the majority...

ya and lower class families are the majority too
its hard to break the trend

[Severus Snape]

should we have entitlements like medicaid? what is your opinion and what effect do they have on the economy, society, politics?

At their worst entitlement programs create problems of complacency among the lower classes, or a desire to qualify, which can lead to various problems. For example, a single mother with two children may qualify for extra food stamps, so what does she do? She goes out to get knocked up to have another kid to get the extra stamps, but doesn't realize that the burden of raising another child is more intense than she thought. As far as political ramifications, liberals and notably Obama have pandered to the lower classes by offering an expansion of government aid primarily in the form of healthcare.

The societal effects are that it creates laziness, a sense of entitlement (obviously) and in the long term the notion that government is obligated to help out the poor, which it is not. Paying taxes should not be contributing to a charity fund. We have a country to run here. Entitlements need to be dramatically cut back as well as any social welfare program.

[Junky]

Their are people who truly need entitlements, the mentally/physically disabled, thats about all i can think of who really really need long term entitlement. We do need some short term entitlements.

What people need to understand is the class change is not a short term change. It happens over generations, usually. Both of my parents had parents who didn't go to college, my paternal mother didn't even graduate high school. Yet they worked hard their entire lives and have made a decent living for themselves. They worked their butts off to give ME a better life.

It's fantastic that you go to a good school and have the opportunity to take AP classes for college credit.

You can get into college without AP classes, maybe not a GREAT college but a college none the less.

Quoted for some major major truth


People don't understand I think that people have a hard time. They have a lot of things going against them sometimes.
There are some opportunties that some people have that other people don't and that difference means a lot.

People can't always go from ghetto to 6 figure salary...in America today...probably only 1% can do that so it bothers me sooo frickin much when people say "all you have to do is work hard". Fuck that.
Working hard doesn't get very much class change in the REAL world.
Real world being people that suffer every day and are denied basic rights...like healthcare.

I can name so many people and examples that some people are just oblivious to.

So please don't give me that American Dream, work hard get what you want crap because no matter how optimistic you are, it just does not always work like that.
Reiterating, I know people that work their asses off and they are in the same exact spot they were at at the beginning of the day.

Umm back on topic.
As a society, we should have a duty to help people. Healthcare is included and people that can afford healthcare and has the ability to help others should just pay their...10 percent income tax that goes to social security to save some lives.

People need to have hearts and stop being so god damn selfish.

America today is selfish and it is quite sad and in my opinion limits the development of our country.

Of course everyone doesn't start out at the same level. But don't be a moron by telling me that it makes it to hard to be wealthy. High school sports is a good comparison: yes their are a few people who are gifted, but the majority of kids start off at the same level. The people on varsity worked their way their, they aren't entitled to it if they don't make the cut they don't make the cut thats how the world works.

Also reinforces my class change argument earlier.

And actually no the Government does not have a duty to help people, only to create and enforce laws, provide defense, and to a small extent regulate the economy. They are just being nice :yes:

I'm tired of people saying its okay that we are taking your money because you know, its for a good cause. Keep your god damn hands off of my hard earned money let them work harder! If I deem a cause worthy enough for my donation i will give it to them. And for the record no its not being heartless thats how the world works and it sucks get used to it.

Just to say it again their are people who need entitlements, the Physically/Mentally disabled.

[The Dark Lord]

the majority of people that are on welfare dont sit on their asses all day and complain...they're out there working hard and trying to move up
so i have no problem with them using all of the resources available(welfare, medicaid, section 8, etc) help to them move up and get ahead

Thats not true. The majority of people on benefits cling to them as security and have no intentions of trying to get into work. Although I support the National Health Service (free medical care in Britain), those who choose not to work should not expect support from the state

[Junky]

Thats not true. The majority of people on benefits cling to them as security and have no intentions of trying to get into work. Although I support the National Health Service (free medical care in Britain), those who choose not to work should not expect support from the state
This is exactly why people hate paying into these entitlements, no where in any constitution (or equivalent, sorry European history teacher i failed you :O) does it say you are entitled to health care or welfare so why should I pay for it?

[The Batman]

Thats not true. The majority of people on benefits cling to them as security and have no intentions of trying to get into work. Although I support the National Health Service (free medical care in Britain), those who choose not to work should not expect support from the state
Do you have a source to this? Because if you scroll up some you'll see that I posted that less than 20% of people stay on it for longer than 5 years.

[The Dark Lord]

Do you have a source to this? Because if you scroll up some you'll see that I posted that less than 20% of people stay on it for longer than 5 years.

No I don't have a source, but if anyone is on benefits for more than 3 months then thats far too long, never 5 years. Nobody should claim benefits without actively seeking to find a job and if they can't find a job within 6 months, then they are so stupid and meaningless that taxpayers should not be expected to subsidise them. It is people like them that destroy countries, anyone who lives in Britain go on BBC iplayer and watch "the Scheme" anyone who sees this will see how pointless it is, giving these people support

[The Batman]

No I don't have a source, but if anyone is on benefits for more than 3 months then thats far too long, never 5 years. Nobody should claim benefits without actively seeking to find a job and if they can't find a job within 6 months, then they are so stupid and meaningless that taxpayers should not be expected to subsidise them. It is people like them that destroy countries, anyone who lives in Britain go on BBC iplayer and watch "the Scheme" anyone who sees this will see how pointless it is, giving these people support

That is a complete ignorant statement, first of all your basing it on a TV show that's designed to get people to watch so what they are going to do is find the extreme of anything and put them infront of a camera(This is without watching the show). Secondly, you'res saying that if you can't find a job in 6 months they are stupid and meaningless, dude have you not seen the job market these days? Also, don't you know that most of the people on welfare and getting entitlements DO work a full time job but it's not enough to pay the bills and put food on the table. Instead of pulling information from a tv show and thin air try researching facts.

[The Dark Lord]

That is a complete ignorant statement, first of all your basing it on a TV show that's designed to get people to watch so what they are going to do is find the extreme of anything and put them infront of a camera(This is without watching the show). Secondly, you'res saying that if you can't find a job in 6 months they are stupid and meaningless, dude have you not seen the job market these days? Also, don't you know that most of the people on welfare and getting entitlements DO work a full time job but it's not enough to pay the bills and put food on the table. Instead of pulling information from a tv show and thin air try researching facts.

No its not, you haven't seen the programme. It is as much an attitude problem as anything, they expect honest, decent, hard working people to pay for their drug/alcohol addiction or for their kids that they had too young and can't support. These are facts. Also I live near the area where the programme was filmed and it actually flatters these people. You say there is no jobs, why don't they volunteer in charity shops or do community service, I wouldn't have a problem if they did that, but they don't. Cancel their benefits and force the lazy to work

[The Batman]

No its not, you haven't seen the programme. It is as much an attitude problem as anything, they expect honest, decent, hard working people to pay for their drug/alcohol addiction or for their kids that they had too young and can't support. These are facts. Wow dude these are facts it's a TV show, they are getting paid to do it you know. And you can't base your entire judgment on everyone getting benefits based ont he laziness of the few. Also I live near the area where the programme was filmed and it actually flatters these people. You say there is no jobs, why don't they volunteer in charity shops or do community service, I wouldn't have a problem if they did that, but they don't. Cancel their benefits and force the lazy to work
That doesn't pay the bills or feed their kids. I'm going to be completely honest and say that you really do sound bigoted.

[The Dark Lord]

Wow dude these are facts it's a TV show, they are getting paid to do it you know. And you can't base your entire judgment on everyone getting benefits based ont he laziness of the few.
That doesn't pay the bills or feed their kids. I'm going to be completely honest and say that you really do sound bigoted.

What I am saying is that if they did charity work, then they should get benefits because they are doing work. The programme, which YOU haven't seen, was designed to expose how these people live, you call me ignorant but you are criticising my evidence without having seen it. I'm not bigoted I just believe that taxpayers shouldn't be supporting people who have intentions of working, or that people who are too young and can't support children, shouldn't have kids. You call it bigotry, I call it common sense

[The Batman]

What I am saying is that if they did charity work, then they should get benefits because they are doing work. The programme, which YOU haven't seen, was designed to expose how these people live, you call me ignorant but you are criticising my evidence without having seen it. I'm not bigoted I just believe that taxpayers shouldn't be supporting people who have intentions of working, or that people who are too young and can't support children, shouldn't have kids. You call it bigotry, I call it common sense

I call it an unsupported opinion also. The reason why I'm not going to look at the most likely biased TV show is because I choose to use more reputable sources. Your evidence means nothing.

[The Dark Lord]

I call it an unsupported opinion also. The reason why I'm not going to look at the most likely biased TV show is because I choose to use more reputable sources. Your evidence means nothing.

Of course, my evidence means something, if you watch TV shows like Jeremy Kyle or the Scheme then you do get an insight into how people live their lives, also the TV I'm talking about was produced by the BBC, an independent taxpayer funded coperation, meaning that they can't be biased. Watch the show, then try argue in favour of giving these people taxpayers money. Also 6million Brits are out of work, costing £12.7billion a year in benefits. Six out of ten workless families are concentrated in just 40 deprived districts of the country. 800,000 are able to work and choose not to. Dispute these facts

[The Batman]

Of course, my evidence means something, if you watch TV shows like Jeremy Kyle or the Scheme then you do get an insight into how people live their lives, also the TV I'm talking about was produced by the BBC, an independent taxpayer funded coperation, meaning that they can't be biased. Watch the show, then try argue in favour of giving these people taxpayers money. Also 6million Brits are out of work, costing £12.7billion a year in benefits. Six out of ten workless families are concentrated in just 40 deprived districts of the country. 800,000 are able to work and choose not to. Dispute these facts
You just did. Out of the 6 million brits out of work only 800,000 of them aren't trying to find a job. that's a little over 10% showing that a majority of the people are trying to find work they just can't.

Also it doesn't matter who funds what, you're still capable of being biased.

[The Dark Lord]

You just did. Out of the 6 million brits out of work only 800,000 of them aren't trying to find a job. that's a little over 10% showing that a majority of the people are trying to find work they just can't.

Also it doesn't matter who funds what, you're still capable of being biased.

However, the people who claim disability allowance to avoid working aren't taken into account. The 800,000 is related to the 1.4million who claim job seekers allowance meaning that 60% of these people can work but choose not to. And if the BBC were biased, they would lose their money and would have to shut down, I don't think the biggest intitution in Britain would risk being shut down for the sake of a few layabouts who have never worked a day in their lives.

[The Batman]

However, the people who claim disability allowance to avoid working aren't taken into account. The 800,000 is related to the 1.4million who claim job seekers allowance meaning that 60% of these people can work but choose not to. If you're going to try and make a claim quote all of what you want to use or better yet provide a source. And if the BBC were biased, they would lose their money and would have to shut down, I don't think the biggest intitution in Britain would risk being shut down for the sake of a few layabouts who have never worked a day in their lives.

BBC News forms a major department of the BBC, and regularly receives complaints of bias. Some groups accuse them of being overly left-wing, while others say they are too right-wing. The Centre for Policy Studies says that, "Since at least the mid-1980s, the BBC has often been criticised for a perceived bias against those on the centre-right of politics."[6] Similar allegations have been made by past and present employees such as Antony Jay,[7] former political editor Andrew Marr,[8] North American editor Justin Webb,[8] former editor of the Today Programme Rod Liddle[9] and former correspondent Robin Aitken.[10]

Not like it's the first time someone's called them biased http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_BBC

[The Dark Lord]

If you're going to try and make a claim quote all of what you want to use or better yet provide a source.



Not like it's the first time someone's called them biased http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_BBC

The fact that they are accused of being left and right wing, surely means that they have successfully maintained impartiality and my statistics are from various UK newspaper, like the Telegraph and the Daily Mail.

[The Batman]

The fact that they are accused of being left and right wing, surely means that they have successfully maintained impartiality and my statistics are from various UK newspaper, like the Telegraph and the Daily Mail.

-_- Provide a source means post a link because right now none of this seems true.

And the fact that BOTH sides are calling them biased doesn't mean they are staying impartial. It means they are pissing everyone off by showing their extremes on both side.

[Hanyo]

should we have entitlements like medicaid? what is your opinion and what effect do they have on the economy, society, politics?


I think the answer depends on if you're talking about ideals or practicality. In principle, it would be nice if everyone's needs were fully taken care of and people only had to work because of personal satisfaction, not survival. But humans are far too imperfect, we could never reach that level ourselves.

So, in practice its better for us to minimize these universal entitlements. Government isn't smart enough to balance the budget, our need, and the economy. Universal entitlements like this cause government to grow, which in turn requires them to tax us more, which chokes our economy.

It would be better if government tried to remain small, and focus on keeping us safe (military, and police). Let the economy sort itself out, that's what capitalism is about. The more you try to control it, the worse it gets, so just leave it alone.

Politics... the government is too big, and political parties divide people too much. What really has government accomplished for us lately??

[The Dark Lord]

-_- Provide a source means post a link because right now none of this seems true.

And the fact that BOTH sides are calling them biased doesn't mean they are staying impartial. It means they are pissing everyone off by showing their extremes on both side.

Type "number of people on benefits UK" into google and I doubt anyone could be extreme left and extreme right at the same time. The fact that there is not a general consensous that the BBC is either left or right suggests that they are impartial

[The Batman]

Type "number of people on benefits UK" into google It's your job to provide the sources in a debate to strengthen your argument not mine. I doubt anyone could be extreme left and extreme right at the same time. The fact that there is not a general consensous that the BBC is either left or right suggests that they are impartialOpinions that aren't backed up with facts have no place in a debate. I've provided proof that they have been called biased by both sides and you're saying that it makes them "impartial". No it means that they are being called biased by both sides on different issues.

[Nickk XD]

Let's start by pointing out you're not from the United States and this thread was mostly based on the entitlements that are unique to the United States. The United States offers far more programs than many other countries and before you go running your mouth about community service and volunteering, there ARE programs in the U.S. that require you to do such things in order to receive benefits. In California, we have a Cal Works program for people who are determined by a doctor to be able to work but may not be smart enough, eligible to, or simply cannot find a job. This program puts people to work and gives them Welfare. In order to receive your benefits, you must work.

You also say many people receiving benefits just expect the government to pay for their drugs, alcohol, etc. That is hardly the case...at least in the U.S.A. Maybe all the Scots smoke dope and continue to receive benefits, but the number in the U.S. is much smaller.

Also, is your only source of information the BBC? Really? You might want to find a new source and try and avoid "newscasters" as they are often drastically inaccurate. For example, many of the newscasters in the U.S.A. favor our Democrat Ideas (liberal) versus conservative.

You say there is no jobs, why don't they volunteer in charity shops or do community service, I wouldn't have a problem if they did that, but they don't. Cancel their benefits and force the lazy to work

[kingpinnn]

I can name over a 100 local businesses (local=northern california) that have PUBLICLY stated that the stimulus money and this summer work program, in particular, have saved them from going under.

Every...and I mean EVERY president that has entered during a recession as done a very similar stimulus plan...some of which work, some of which take time. We are no longer losing millions of jobs per day, and we can thank the stimulus plan for that. It seems as if you're blaming Obama for the current state of the economy when none of it is his fault. He entered during the worse part of the recession and NO it hasn't gotten worse.

please name 20 businesses...and the great depression of the 1930s can show us that stimulus programs dont work...they create few jobs...the new deal which was a combo of social reforms and stimulus failed terribly and made the depression worse...prewar production brought us out of the great depression...
there was a depression that was in some ways worse than the great depression, the reason people dont know about it is because it was so short...
The Depression of 1920–21 was an extremely sharp deflationary recession in the United States, shortly after the end of World War I. It lasted from January 1920 to July 1921. The extent of the deflation was not only large, but large relative to the accompanying decline in real product. when Harding became president, he cut the federal budget in half and decreased taxes dramatically...this is what not only brought us out of the depression, but what lead to "the roaring twenties".

[Peace God]

The majority of people on benefits cling to them as security and have no intentions of trying to get into work.
Who tells you this crap?

[Junky]

With all the money they spend on entitlements they should be able to do away with the over taxing of the wealthy, that would stimulate the economy.

[The Dark Lord]

Who tells you this crap?

Its a concept I call common sense. Anyone who stays of benefits for any length of time clearly has no intentions of working, If they did then they would work, there are jobs for anyone who wants them.

[Hanyo]

Hahhaha, yeah, I mean, if you could get money regularly and not have to do anything for it, you would accept it wouldn't you? Well, you might not if you had pride and the capability to earn a lot more working honestly, but suppose you don't really have any marketable skills, no pride, and aren't really that motivated to do anything other than watch TV... If the government was willing to give you enough money to survive, wouldn't you want to keep that if the requirement was you have to be jobless?

Really, its a self-licking icecream cone.

[quartermaster]

*sigh* I was crafting another response to the fallacies of economic "stimulus" and government created wealth, but this being my 20th post on the topic, and still having made no headway with any of you, who evidently do not even bother to educate yourselves on different schools of economic thought, I figured, "what's the point." Entitlements hamper economic growth, redistribute but do not create wealth and ultimately hurt the poor, but who really cares about the poor?

[Hanyo]

hahah, sometimes people don't like to listen. But good point quartermaster.

[Junky]

Entitlements hamper economic growth, redistribute but do not create wealth and ultimately hurt the poor, but who really cares about the poor?
To be brutally honest why should we care? I mean my family immigrated from Ireland and Italy without a penny to their names, they worked their way to where they are now. The real problem is that kids of these poor families aren't encouraged to do well in school and as such come out of high school (if they make it through at all) with NO marketable skills.

[The Dark Lord]

Let's start by pointing out you're not from the United States and this thread was mostly based on the entitlements that are unique to the United States. The United States offers far more programs than many other countries and before you go running your mouth about community service and volunteering, there ARE programs in the U.S. that require you to do such things in order to receive benefits. In California, we have a Cal Works program for people who are determined by a doctor to be able to work but may not be smart enough, eligible to, or simply cannot find a job. This program puts people to work and gives them Welfare. In order to receive your benefits, you must work.

You also say many people receiving benefits just expect the government to pay for their drugs, alcohol, etc. That is hardly the case...at least in the U.S.A. Maybe all the Scots smoke dope and continue to receive benefits, but the number in the U.S. is much smaller.

Also, is your only source of information the BBC? Really? You might want to find a new source and try and avoid "newscasters" as they are often drastically inaccurate. For example, many of the newscasters in the U.S.A. favor our Democrat Ideas (liberal) versus conservative.

Not everyone in Scotland smokes dope, only a very small percentage. Also you criticise the BBC as a unreliable source, the BBC is totally accurate and impartial and aren't allowed to fabricate evidence. Although I'm not from America, surely I'm not unique in thinking that other Governments provide entitlements to the unemployed etc? You also, in an unnecessarily patronising tone, criticise my idea of voluntary work and how it is already implamented in the USA, why, if that is the case, did MOJO not point this out to me? You can't escape the fact that people shouldn't expect and exploit the benefits system to subcisdise their lazyness.

[Peace God]

Its a concept I call common sense. Anyone who stays of benefits for any length of time clearly has no intentions of working.
Well you should seriously call it something else.
there are jobs for anyone who wants them.
no there's not...

You claim that everyone on welfare/benefits doesn't want to work and that there are jobs for all unemployed people. Please show me where you got this information.

[The Dark Lord]

Well you should seriously call it something else.

no there's not...

You claim that everyone on welfare/benefits doesn't want to work and that there are jobs for all unemployed people. Please show me where you got this information.

What do you suggest I call it?

Also I refered to the long term unemployed who have been out of work for a long period of time, not everyone. Also if someone who has been on benefits for 4years and asked the government for a job, do you seriously believe he would be rejected from work?

[Whisper]

I agree with matty
I fully support government intervention when you loose your job, but it should have a realistic limit too.
Especially with all the baby bloomers retiring
In Canada anyway by 2016 seniors will out number children
which means the working class is shrinking and the elderly is skyrocketing
healthcare costs, gov pensions, assisted living facilities, yada yada yada
are going to be under severe strain
all living off the taxes of a shrinking work force

We don't need to be dealing with free loaders

Like matty suggests if you can't find a job because of the recession then you should be volunteering full time
if your volunteering then you're paying back to the society thats helping you; reciprocity.
I'm totally for that

But if you're just mooching off society sitting at home, the clocks tickin.

[Perseus]

Its a concept I call common sense. Anyone who stays of benefits for any length of time clearly has no intentions of working, If they did then they would work, there are jobs for anyone who wants them.

Lol, no. If there are jobs for everyone, then why are so many people unemployed right now? Is it because they were fired because they business is losing money? Oh well, I guess they can go find a new job since you say there are so many jobs available. Get real, man. There aren't jobs available for everyone that wants them; if there were, then'd so many people wouldn't be unemployed right now.

Welfare is good when it isn't exploited, like everything else in the world. With every system, there will be faults and people who exploit them. You shouldn't take something aware from the majority who need it because of a minority who exploit it. Since I'm a video game nerd, I shall use a video game as an example. On a game server, say you have glitches on the multiplayer. Now, there will always be a minority who exploit a glitch for their benefit, should the servers be shut down for everyone because of them? Of course not.

I don't see why some of you are so against helping people who need it. If you were in the same position as them, then you'd want as much help as you can so you put food on the table so your family doesn't starve. Not everyone can find a job right after they get fired. It takes time. Say it with me now, time.

[Peace God]

Also if someone who has been on benefits for 4years and asked the government for a job, do you seriously believe he would be rejected from work?
Probably...it wouldnt give the person an advantage over someone else.


Also I refered to the long term unemployed who have been out of work for a long period of time, not everyone. Anyone who stays of benefits for any length of time clearly has no intentions of working.

[Junky]

There does need to be a short term unemployment benefit plan, not some four year bull shit. Yes jobs aren't being handed out on a silver platter but I kids in 10th grade that have part time jobs, and if they haven't even finished high school and can find a job why can't you. Another explanation for having a job is lack of marketable skills, which is definitely not mine nor the states problem. If you don't have a college degree it will be difficult to be competitive in any job market. It is also important to note that degrees in musical theory, chicano studies, philosophy, dance, english lit, film, latin, and finally religion will leave you with college expenses and NO marketable skills that anyone from the street can't gain from a couple hours of studying.

[Nickk XD]

The newscast of any newcasting company is definitely not 100% of what it should be. They fabricate facts to play in their best interests (depending on the official in charge of the country). Now, this is the facts.


Yes, what you are referring to is called unemployment. This is granted to people who did work but was laid off and/or fired (as long as they didn't quit voluntarily). The people who receive these benefits are paying into them while they work (it is required for anyone employed for long term to pay into unemployment). Then the employer is required to match a portion of what the employee paid. The government actually throws really little into this fund.

We do have welfare, social security, and other programs available to help society. Keep in mind that a healthy society=happy and prosperous society.

Welfare: A program designed to help people who are unable to work due to medical issues, mental issues, etc. It is also given to people who were low income and did not qualify for unemployment insurance. In most states, the most you are allowed to remain on a program like this is 2 years (unless two or more doctors verify you have a medical reason why you cannot work). In California, it is currently 5 years.

Social Security: Benefits given to the elderly and in some cases working disabled people. These benefits are generally paid for by the person receiving them (as they paid into them all their working life). This is usually given in conjunction with Medicare, a reasonable health insurance program (also paid for out of pocket during their employment years).

Supplemental Security Income (SSI): Given to persons aged 65+, blind, or disabled. This comes from a similar fund as Social Security except it is not federal. It is granted and maintained by the state. The federal government donates a portion to the state which goes towards the total amount of benefits. Generally, you receive this OR social security. The average benefits in California for this is $800 USD.

There are other programs such as work programs, Medicaid, etc. Medicaid is a program usually granted at same time as welfare to children and adults. Children receive almost unlimited benefits while adults are limited to certain medical services (only hospital or family medical doctor).

We do have several voluntary programs available to the unemployed and general population. It isn't required that the people receiving benefits volunteer simple because 80% of them are receiving benefits because they are UNABLE to work. Why or how should they actually volunteer? Imagine your 80 year old grandmother planting trees.

Barack Obama is calling all Americans to work to help renew the United States. He is attempting to re-implement Civil Service Corps that would ask that all teenagers be required to perform one year of community service. This program was around in the past but not nearly as mandatory. Here is the link to the Serve website that just explains why it is important to service, how it helps, and what he's planning on doing about it. http://www.serve.gov/

Not everyone in Scotland smokes dope, only a very small percentage. Also you criticise the BBC as a unreliable source, the BBC is totally accurate and impartial and aren't allowed to fabricate evidence. Although I'm not from America, surely I'm not unique in thinking that other Governments provide entitlements to the unemployed etc? You also, in an unnecessarily patronising tone, criticise my idea of voluntary work and how it is already implamented in the USA, why, if that is the case, did MOJO not point this out to me? You can't escape the fact that people shouldn't expect and exploit the benefits system to subcisdise their lazyness.

[Allbutanillusion]

should we have entitlements like medicaid? what is your opinion and what effect do they have on the economy, society, politics?

That's interesting, you call it entitlements. No one is entitled to anything however I think that some people need a little extra help. some people have had things happen to them in which they did not bring it upon themselves.

I think that we do need government programs but with stronger guidelines for some to make sure people don't take advantage of the system.

We are already getting screwed over by greedy corporations and attitude of entitlement to everything. (don't get me started on that)

we live in as society were we are so afraid to help other people out if there is not something in it for us. Ever heard of the word narcissistic. That is the type of society we live in, a very narcissistic society. I challenge you to proof me wrong, but you can't

But that is just my two cents,

[Malcolm Tucker]

Please do not bump old threads. Thanks...

:locked: